Question: Why is there no high health Medium armour profession?

Just noticed while looking at stuff for a post in another thread. The medium armour class doesn't have a high health profession.

Heavy armour has;High HP - WarriorMedium HP - RevenantLow HP - Guardian

Light armour has;High HP - NecroMedium HP - MesmerLow HP - Ele

While Medium armour has;High HP - ?????Medium HP - Ranger + EngieLow HP - Thief

Is there a particular reason for this discrepancy?

If a Med class were to get high Hp it would probably be Ranger.. although this would be a bit too much imoRanger already has a lot of survivability, giving it high HP as well would be overkill, even if it were only a few thousand more.

There's also the pet factor, Ranger takes a hit because they have a perma companion around as well which is supposed to even them out to other classes.

Probably because the engineer was originally going to be a heavy armour profession. It was changed to a medium armour profession which broke the original pattern.

@"Fjaeldmark.9043" said:Probably because the engineer was originally going to be a heavy armour profession. It was changed to a medium armour profession which broke the original pattern.

"broke the original pattern"? But it seems the pattern would be even worse then? :D

@Teratus.2859 said:If a Med class were to get high Hp it would probably be Ranger.. although this would be a bit too much imo

Really? I'd have thought it'd be Engie.

Given that all their weapons and many of their utilities want them to get up close and they don't have much to defend themselves with outside some shields.

@"Sobx.1758" said:"broke the original pattern"? But it seems the pattern would be even worse then? :D

Given that Revenant was added with HoT and was not part of the core game, Engie would have taken their place as medium HP and heavy armour profession.

Potentially causing Revenant to end up being a medium armour profession with high HP when added (Since part of the reason for its addition was to round out 3 professions per armour class)

Technically Engineer traited with Blast Shield is the high health medium armor profession. Running full zerk ascended it brings you to around 19K HP which is essentially high health. (18K in PvP)In that vein, scrapper without the Explosives line is the lower health medium armor profession along with thief/deadeye.

There's an argument to made that merged WS+Beastmastery soulbeast rangers with Taste for Danger (+120 Vitality) are closer to high health as well (~19K). If you run Vital Persistence on necromancer that would be extra high health as it is an additional 180 vitality.

A daredevil running Marauder's Resilience is closer to a medium health (~13K) , weavers running a sword and Master's Fortitude reach 14K, and the same goes for guardians running force of will which is a flat 300 vitality (~14.6K).

Ranger has a pet tank that does not take up an utility slot, plus traits that boost up utility.

@Infusion.7149 said:Technically Engineer traited with Blast Shield is the high health medium armor profession. Running full zerk ascended it brings you to around 19K HP which is essentially high health. (18K in PvP)In that vein, scrapper without the Explosives line is the lower health medium armor profession along with thief/deadeye.

A daredevil running Marauder's Resilience is closer to a medium health (~13K) , weavers running a sword and Master's Fortitude reach 14K, and the same goes for guardians running force of will which is a flat 300 vitality (~14.6K).

Sure, but let's just use Core as a baseline.

Core WarriorCore Necro

Both unquestionably are high health builds.

But what about Core Engy? Blast shield was added i the 2020 update? What about before that?

One can argue that Thief has always been about mobility and evasion, and Core Ranger still has access to lots of personal boons, as well as a pet to tank damage for them. Are access to kits the justification for Engy not having a higher health pool?

Probably chasing nothing here, but I'm bored at work :sunglasses:

@"Sobx.1758" said:"broke the original pattern"? But it seems the pattern would be even worse then? :D

So it would "fit the pattern" if we still added another class and made it totally different than it is currently. Um... ok?The ranger take on this one seems to make more sense tbh. And that still only if someone REALLY wants to find a pattern that there's no reason to look for.

@Teratus.2859 said:If a Med class were to get high Hp it would probably be Ranger.. although this would be a bit too much imoRanger already has a lot of survivability, giving it high HP as well would be overkill, even if it were only a few thousand more.

There's also the pet factor, Ranger takes a hit because they have a perma companion around as well which is supposed to even them out to other classes.

Honestly as a ranger main i think engi is more fitting.It has more bulk to it IMO aestethically.Ranger has a pet sponge and thief is jit and run.Engi is less evasive and especially as a scrapper it suits it very well to be. more bulky.

But generally i tjink the vitality concept should be abolished and all should get medium vitality.Survivability should only be dependend on skill and traits and ofc skills.

@"Sobx.1758" said:So it would "fit the pattern" if we still added another class and made it totally different than it is currently. Um... ok?

Well, there are only 8 core professions. Therefore to "Fit the pattern" there would need to be an additional class irregardless as 9 professions are needed to have one of each type.

Engie would have fit the pattern if it was heavy armour because then heavy and light armour classes would have had a profession with high, medium and low health. With medium armour only having a medium and low health profession (Therefore, missing a high health profession like is currently, only without having 2x medium health)

At this point, the pattern would be complete if either Ranger or Engie was changed to high health.

@Infusion.7149 said:Technically Engineer traited with Blast Shield is the high health medium armor profession. Running full zerk ascended it brings you to around 19K HP which is essentially high health. (18K in PvP)

Though, I'm looking at core stats. Not what you've traited and geared for. Unless we can start calling Thief high health medium armour because if you wear full Shaman gear with Vit infusions and Vampirism runes you end up with 31k hp. (Not to mention, Warrior also gets the same power to vit conversion trait and thus would end up with ~22k health with the same set up)

Or we call Warrior high health low armour because Berserker reduces toughness by 300 (Which actually puts them below light armour in terms of overall base armour)...

With core stats:

Low health professions have 11645 base healthMedium health professions have 15922 base healthHigh health professions have 19212 base health

@Taril.8619 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:So it would "fit the pattern" if we still added another class and made it totally different than it is currently. Um... ok?

Ok, you seem to be missing a tiny, yet crucial point about this. Here is the post I was obviously -because that's what I've quoted- answering to:"Probably because the engineer was originally going to be a heavy armour profession. It was changed to a medium armour profession which broke the original pattern."

There was no "original pattern" and no amount of mental gymnastics or added and hopefully changed classes after release/patch/expansion will change it. By that logic, every class could have their health amounts changed and now that would be a new "original pattern". As it stands, though: there was none. Ok? :D

Question: why is there no high health medium armor profession?Answer: because there's no need for one and nobody ever said there will be some kind of pattern. We can weave, theorycraft, hope and wish, but if we want an ACTUAL ANSWER, it seems to me that there's nothing more to it than this.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:But generally i tjink the vitality concept should be abolished and all should get medium vitality.Survivability should only be dependend on skill and traits and ofc skills.

If they did that it would destroy many tank builds.Not to mention screw over Necro's by taking their HP and Shroud caps away which they absolutely need to play any kind of sustain/tank like build.Necro's can't self buff defenses like protection, stability and retaliation like other classes can to decrease incoming damage, they rely a lot on shroud to just absorb it.

Toughness or Vitality alone doesn't make for great tanks, you need both and since you have to give up 2 stats to take both it's more than a fair trade off.

@"Sobx.1758" said:There was no "original pattern" and no amount of mental gymnastics or added and hopefully changed classes after release/patch/expansion will change it. By that logic, every class could have their health amounts changed and now that would be a new "original pattern". As it stands, though: there was none. Ok? :D

Except there was a pattern. Thus, why there was a standard base health for "High health" "Medium health" and "Low health" professions.

The original pattern was:

High health heavy armour - WarriorMedium health heavy armour - EngineerLow health heavy armour - GuardianHigh health light armour - NecromancerMedium health light armour - MesmerLow health light armour - ElementalistMedium health medium armour - RangerLow health medium armour - Thief

Which would have been 1 profession of each armour and health type. With missing high health medium armour due to there only being 8 classes in the game. Okay?

Except, they then shifted away from this pattern when they decided to make Engie medium armour instead of heavy.

Thus, when part of the reason for adding in the 9th class, Revenant was to round out the armour classes with 3 professions each it ended up filling the heavy armour medium health role as it was the one that was missing (3rd heavy armour profession and then filling in the medium health slot)

So now we have that original pattern back, except for Medium armour which has 2 professions with medium health and none with high health.

This needs no mental gymnastics, there was a pattern. Then they deviated from it. Then they went back to the pattern. Now we still have that random deviation.

Now, unless you can provide evidence for there never existing a pattern, we have a very clear pattern that was made early in the games life, which has been adhered to when the time came when they added the 9th class to the game.

Thus, my question of why both Ranger and Engie share the trait of medium armour and medium health while there doesn't exist a high health medium armour profession still stands.

@Teratus.2859 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:But generally i tjink the vitality concept should be abolished and all should get medium vitality.Survivability should only be dependend on skill and traits and ofc skills.

Yeah i know.If they do that i think normalizing the armor ratings is also something to be taken into account.

Its something that i would like to see, but not something that could be done easily nor that should be done lightly.

Many tweaks would be necessary.

@Taril.8619 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:There was no "original pattern" and no amount of mental gymnastics or added and hopefully changed classes after release/patch/expansion will change it. By that logic, every class could have their health amounts changed and now that would be a new "original pattern". As it stands, though: there was none. Ok? :D

Which would have been 1 profession of each armour and health type. With missing high health medium armour due to there only being 8 classes in the game. Okay?

Yup, originally there were 8 classes, 2 have high health, 3 med, 3 low. That's not a pattern. You know nothing about their plans for releasing another class, so again you can make as many mental gymnastics as you like while changing classes/armors/amount of their hp, but there still was no pattern involved and engineer being a potentially heavy armoured class wouldn't change anything about that.If they wanted there to be a pattern -from the start or not- then there would be one. But there wasn't. And still isn't. At least other than 3 classes per armor type, but that's pretty obvious and not what I'm discussing here.

Except, they then shifted away from this pattern when they decided to make Engie medium armour instead of heavy.

"This" being "nonexistent", yes. :p

Thus, when part of the reason for adding in the 9th class, Revenant was to round out the armour classes with 3 professions each it ended up filling the heavy armour medium health role as it was the one that was missing (3rd heavy armour profession and then filling in the medium health slot)

So now we have that original pattern back, except for Medium armour which has 2 professions with medium health and none with high health.

This needs no mental gymnastics, there was a pattern. Then they deviated from it. Then they went back to the pattern. Now we still have that random deviation.

Seeing how there's a bunch of "ifs", "whens" and at least one "completely different class than we currently have", it really seems like plenty of mental gymnastics still would have to be done for it to be remotely true.As it stands though, it is false and there was no pattern at the beginning. If they wanted a pattern, there would be one. But there isn't. And wasn't. And nothing hints that there ever will be.

Now, unless you can provide evidence for there never existing a pattern, we have a very clear pattern that was made early in the games life, which has been adhered to when the time came when they added the 9th class to the game.

What "evidence"? There either is a pattern or there isn't. In this case it's clear there isn't and wasn't. You say that they would need to change some classes and then there would be a pattern, which suddenly means there was a pattern in the first place. That's just obviously wrong and there's not much to prove here, when you keep disproving yourself.

Also the only pattern that has been adhered to when the time came, was the amount of classes representing each armor type. If they wanted there to be a health amount pattern, they'd deal with it at the game release and tried to balance the new high health med class around it. As it stands, there was no pattern and you have to come to terms with it whether you like it or not.

Thus, my question of why both Ranger and Engie share the trait of medium armour and medium health while there doesn't exist a high health medium armour profession still stands.

It's because nobody ever said there will be a health amount "pattern" and there's no ACTUAL need for one other than someone's "pattern fantasy" fulfillment.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:But generally i tjink the vitality concept should be abolished and all should get medium vitality.Survivability should only be dependend on skill and traits and ofc skills.

Very many yea.. it would probably end up with toughness being underpowered or overpowered for a while leading to people either running super tanky builds with very high damage output or tanks being not that much better at tanking than glass canons with protect spam lol

They'd have to rebalance sustain too and healing power with similar issues there either being too OP or UP.Probably have to get rid of or change some stat sets too.

I think it's better to just stick with multiple offensive and defensive stats, don't think it's worth the headache to change that much just to remove vitality.

@Sobx.1758 said:Yup, originally there were 8 classes, 2 have high health, 3 med, 3 low. That's not a pattern.

Uhh... Yes it is. Now if it was like 5 had med health, 1 had high and 2 had low, that's indication that there's no pattern.

Directly creating equality (As far as you can go with 8 professions going into 3 categories) is a pattern.

@Sobx.1758 said:You know nothing about their plans for releasing another class, so again you can make as many mental gymnastics as you like while changing classes/armors/amount of their hp, but there still was no pattern involved and engineer being a potentially heavy armoured class wouldn't change anything about that.

Except what they've literally said?

Which is Revenant being added to balance out the number of professions in each armour class.

Which is also Engineer originally being Heavy armour.

They've not made any indication of releasing another class, but if they did, they'll state why they did so (Especially in reference to Revenant being used to balance out the armour classes)

@Sobx.1758 said:If they wanted there to be a pattern -from the start or not- then there would be one. But there wasn't. And still isn't. At least other than 3 classes per armor type, but that's pretty obvious and not what I'm discussing here.

So there wasn't a pattern but there is?

There's a pattern of 3 professions per armour type.

Initially there was plans for there to also be only 1 profession of each health category in each armour type. They ended up changing their minds and making medium armour have 2 professions with medium health. Meanwhile, both other armour types have coincided with the initial plans with having 1 profession with each health category within the armour types, including the additional 9th class that was released in the first expansion (Meaning, if there truly was no pattern, then they were under no obligation to make Revenant use heavy armour or have a medium health pool, thus you'd be arguing that it is mere coincidence that Revenant ended up being a medium health heavy armour profession)

My question is why? Also, why hasn't either medium health profession been changed to high health?

If your answer to that question is simply "There isn't a pattern" then that's irrelevant. As it does not answer the question.

@Sobx.1758 said:Seeing how there's a bunch of "ifs", "whens" and at least one "completely different class than we currently have", it really seems like plenty of mental gymnastics still would have to be done for it to be remotely true.

What "ifs"? What "whens"? and what "Completely different class than we currently have"?

What on Earth are you going on about?

It seems like you're the one doing mental gymnastics to try and get to some sort of point about there being patterns but no patterns?

@Sobx.1758 said:What "evidence"? There either is a pattern or there isn't. In this case it's clear there isn't and wasn't.

Evidence? You know, something solid that can be undeniable proof that your argument is backed up with some actual facts?

Like how I've brought up the actual armour classes and health categories of the profession as they exist in the game right now and have done so for many years, which shows a pattern of 3 professions per armour class and 2/3 armour classes have a distribution of 1 per health category.

@Sobx.1758 said:You say that they would need to change some classes and then there would be a pattern, which suddenly means there was a pattern in the first place. That's just obviously wrong and there's not much to prove here, when you keep disproving yourself.

What are you blabbering about now?

There IS a pattern that exists.

Only 1 profession needs to be changed and the pattern will be all encompassing (Since there is only one deviation from the pattern, which is the 2 medium health medium armour professions)

I think you're getting confused.

My initial response to you about the pattern was due to you saying that Engie originally being heavy armour would have gone against the pattern more so than what currently exists.

However, if this was the case, given that Engie was in the game before Revenant, it would not have caused an issue as each class would still have a 3/3/2 split of professions. Also, each class would have a single profession per health category.

Then given that Revenant was, by the Dev's own admission, created to balance out the armour classes to make a 3/3/3 split, it would not have been released as a heavy armour medium health profession. This doesn't mean "If we completely change a class there would be a pattern" this means, that since the class was created to fill in a hole in the pattern, with a different base to said pattern (With Engie being heavy armour instead of medium) the class would have been designed differently.

@Sobx.1758 said:It's because nobody ever said there will be a health amount "pattern" and there's no ACTUAL need for one other than someone's "pattern fantasy" fulfillment.

Nobody ever said there will be an armour class "Pattern" and there's no ACTUAL need for one other than someone's "Pattern fantasy" fulfillment.

Yet, we got Revenant to fill out the Heavy armour class to have 3 professions in it.

Just because no-one explicitly states there will be a pattern, doesn't mean one doesn't exist. It's possible that ANet devs even do consider it a pattern (Hence medium health Revenant) though it would be pure conjecture unless someone who works there actually says if it is or not.

Since there is no pattern, the op question does not make sense. There is no medium armor high health profession because anet did not feel like creating one.

Btw.: guardian was a high health profession in the beta but it turned out to be broken and so it dropped two hp tiers... leading to the current "rev is the only outlier" situation. Otherwise you would now ask why rev is the only heavy armor profession that does not have a high health pool.

@Taril.8619 said:Just because no-one explicitly states there will be a pattern, doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

Likewise, that doesn't mean one DOES exist either. That argument works BOTH ways. Why is there no medium high HP class? Because Anet didn't make one ... whether people believe there is or isn't a pattern is completely irrelevant.

Base health has very little to do with a profession's sustain anymore so I am not sure if this discussion will get very far.

@Taril.8619 said:Just noticed while looking at stuff for a post in another thread. The medium armour class doesn't have a high health profession.

Heavy armour has;High HP - WarriorMedium HP - RevenantLow HP - Guardian

Light armour has;High HP - NecroMedium HP - MesmerLow HP - Ele

While Medium armour has;High HP - ?????Medium HP - Ranger + EngieLow HP - Thief

Is there a particular reason for this discrepancy?

No, Ranger is the high health Medium armor class. It's just that instead of the HP being tied up in the actual character, it is side loaded into the pet (the pet is non-optional, unlike all other classes that have minions/AI which are all optional.)

I don't think it's important. But I think 11.5k HP is too low (in my opinion).I would rather see Low at 13k HP, Medium at 16k HP, and High at 19k HP

@Taril.8619 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Yup, originally there were 8 classes, 2 have high health, 3 med, 3 low. That's not a pattern.

@Sobx.1758 said:You know nothing about their plans for releasing another class, so again you can make as many mental gymnastics as you like while changing classes/armors/amount of their hp, but there still was no pattern involved and engineer being a potentially heavy armoured class wouldn't change anything about that.

@Sobx.1758 said:If they wanted there to be a pattern -from the start or not- then there would be one. But there wasn't. And still isn't. At least other than 3 classes per armor type, but that's pretty obvious and not what I'm discussing here.

@Sobx.1758 said:Seeing how there's a bunch of "ifs", "whens" and at least one "completely different class than we currently have", it really seems like plenty of mental gymnastics still would have to be done for it to be remotely true.

@Sobx.1758 said:What "evidence"? There either is a pattern or there isn't. In this case it's clear there isn't and wasn't.

@Sobx.1758 said:You say that they would need to change some classes and then there would be a pattern, which suddenly means there was a pattern in the first place. That's just obviously wrong and there's not much to prove here, when you keep disproving yourself.

@Sobx.1758 said:It's because nobody ever said there will be a health amount "pattern" and there's no ACTUAL need for one other than someone's "pattern fantasy" fulfillment.

You are right on the pattern, but ranger is the high HP medium armor profession because it has a permanent pet with extra HP.

Hey there-I made a new character yesterday. Interesting pattern on the start up screen.

Top Row:Warrior [high HP] is left, Guardian [low HP] is middle, Revenant [med HP] is rightMiddle Row:Ranger [med HP + perm pet] is left, Thief [low HP] is middle, Engineer [med HP] is rightLower Row:Necro [high HP] is left, Elementalist [low HP] is middle, Mesmer [med HP] is right

I would argue that ANET has placed Ranger in the High HP column because it has a permenant pet; ie, ranger is using part of their HIgh HP stats, but they have been alotted in the pet column.

Hope that helps!