OW Mirage build, do I use rabid or viper ? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Professions Mesmer

OW Mirage build, do I use rabid or viper ?

Hey guys, hope you can clear something for me.
I had a crafting alt that was a mesmer who i decided to turn into mirage and had a set of viper gear in stash.
The build i found online is saying that i should go with rabid set and undead runes.

Me being me, i put on a viper set with krait runes (im just going from condi shortbow renegade experience here) before i checked the build.

Now, my question is this...is it worth getting a rabid set even though its technically a "downgrade" since i lose so much expertise ?

I dont really care about fractals or pvp, but I just find staff playstyle nice, however i would like to squeeze out as much damage as possible with stacking conditions without having to go to axes.

Please help, thank you.

The build in question

Comments

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:
    Hey guys, hope you can clear something for me.
    I had a crafting alt that was a mesmer who i decided to turn into mirage and had a set of viper gear in stash.
    The build i found online is saying that i should go with rabid set and undead runes.

    Me being me, i put on a viper set with krait runes (im just going from condi shortbow renegade experience here) before i checked the build.

    Now, my question is this...is it worth getting a rabid set even though its technically a "downgrade" since i lose so much expertise ?

    I dont really care about fractals or pvp, but I just find staff playstyle nice, however i would like to squeeze out as much damage as possible with stacking conditions without having to go to axes.

    Please help, thank you.

    The build in question

    rabid set is tank set
    undead runes are tank runes, if you are after damage then viper will do more
    as for runes use https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Nightmare as a replacement for krait
    you will do MORE damage then him, but the point of his video was to be VERY tanky due to toughness stacking and ALSO deal acceptable damage.
    to put it easy for you.
    you will deal ~20-30% more damage then him, but you will take twice the damage he does. to power damage at least, condi will be the same.

  • Since you did say OW, I'm gonna go ahead and say roll with the viper set, unless you plan on soloing world bosses.

    I have many names, but you know exactly whose alt this is. I mean what did you think they were gonna do? Not take my money?

  • Anemone.5320Anemone.5320 Member ✭✭

    I second viper, especially if you're running staff which means you can keep firing from a safe distance. As stated, rabid is a lil bit more tanky but imo it's not worth the dps loss, because mirage has enough evades/distortion/etc to take care of itself. I can solo some champions with full viper staff so imo go viper.

  • Thank you very much guys, i'll stick with viper for now and see if i die.
    What kind of runes would you use ? I think im running either afflicted or krait right now.

    Leaning towards krait more because i use jaunt quite often.

  • Antycypator.9874Antycypator.9874 Member ✭✭✭

    I would take Viper's, because condi mirage really need that extended Condi Duration. It's boosting your damage.
    For survivability: Runes of tormenting, but your main weapon must be axe.
    Build: My personal choice is Chaos/Dueling (for boons). Other option is Illusions/Dueling.

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KiteoHatto.7018
    dont use afflicted, it seems really bad, mesmer doesnt have poison and nove explo seems useless.
    try to get rune of nightmare, its from dungeon currency if you can, if not you can stick with krait, but you will lose some dps.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @KiteoHatto.7018
    dont use afflicted, it seems really bad, mesmer doesnt have poison and nove explo seems useless.
    try to get rune of nightmare, its from dungeon currency if you can, if not you can stick with krait, but you will lose some dps.

    But why nightmare, isnt fear useless ?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KiteoHatto.7018 yea, but % condi duration is the best of all runes, and mesmer uses too many conditions to focus on 1 only, expecially on staff.
    you will pump out bleed,troment,burn,confusion.

  • Shoridan.2569Shoridan.2569 Member ✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    I would suggest taking viper stats (as you already decided) and tormenting runes. While it will hurt your dps a bit compared to fully efficient raid build, the runes allow you crazy sustain, since mirage applies a decent amount of torment. For open world tormenting runes make you more durable than the rabid/undead combo. With axe/torch you deal very good damage while healing from torment applications (the more mobs the better, the aoe of this is very nice). With staff you can stand back in relative safety and let your clones tank, while still doing ok damage and healing a bit from torment.

    This setup can solo almost anything in open world. With the inherent mirage evades, along with sustain from runes of tormenting you will rarely get downed. And it usually means you made a mistake :)

    Edit: those runes are some of the most expensive in the game. Be ready to shell 50-60 gold for a set. That is the only downside I see to them.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    Viper actually lowers overall DPS in this build, because:

    1. Staff doesn't take advantage of the power stat due to weak damage.
    2. This build relies frequent critical hits to generate bleed stacks, Viper has lower precision.
    3. Bleed and Torment has high enough duration for OWs, therefore Expertise isn't as important in this case.

    Just keep in mind that this build lacks progression, useless in dungeon/strike/raid, and mostly pointless in fractals due to low potential dps growth in a team scenerio.

    But since you already have viper armor, mixing with rabid staffs and trinklets will work just fine.

  • KiteoHatto.7018KiteoHatto.7018 Member ✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    I ended up putting together both sets and tested them on a champ dummy in the mists.

    Rabid with undead runes vs Viper with krait

    Rabid takes almost twice as long to kill the same target, using the same skills. Even though my condi sheet damage is higher by a good 400+ the lack of expertese wins in the end because i can simply stack more bleeds, torments and burning before they expire, all this results in higher condi ticks than rabid gear.

    Sure i lose about 1k armor with viper, but honestly, it has enough utility to stay alive for most things.

    Ended up upgrading to nightmare runes from krait (lose 30% bleed duration[from 50%] but gain 20% every other duration). Now working on getting ascended armor and trinkets.

    Best thing is that viper condi mirage is a spec that can be used in fractals, all i have to do is switch to the axe/torch and thats it :)
    Thanks for all the help, i ended up really enjoying the build.

  • Toku.5972Toku.5972 Member ✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:
    I ended up putting together both sets and tested them on a champ dummy in the mists.

    Rabid with undead runes vs Viper with krait

    Rabid takes almost twice as long to kill the same target, using the same skills. Even though my condi sheet damage is higher by a good 400+ the lack of expertese wins in the end because i can simply stack more bleeds, torments and burning before they expire, all this results in higher condi ticks than rabid gear.

    Sure i lose about 1k armor with viper, but honestly, it has enough utility to stay alive for most things.

    Ended up upgrading to nightmare runes from krait (lose 30% bleed duration[from 50%] but gain 20% every other duration). Now working on getting ascended armor and trinkets.

    Best thing is that viper condi mirage is a spec that can be used in fractals, all i have to do is switch to the axe/torch and thats it :)
    Thanks for all the help, i ended up really enjoying the build.

    The reason your Rabid build did so much worse is because Rabid's schtick is to leverage Sharper Images via high Precision, (shifting a huge chunk of your damage into Bleed) and you were using Undead Runes with that instead of Krait (to max that Bleed leverage).

    Comparing fully ascended gear (Rabid + Krait, Viper + Nightmare, Trailblazer + Nightmare) the dps differences narrow considerably.

    Rabid + Krait will be within 1kdps of Trailblazer + Nightmare, and Trailblazer will be within 500dps of Viper + Nightmare. Training golem w/self buffs only.

    The reason to run Rabid is for a cheaper alternative to Trailblazer. The reason to run Viper is for an easy transition into the Axe Mirage raid build.

    But for open world, Trailblazer (if you can afford it) is the absolute best, and I would strongly encourage you to make a set if that's your focus.

    You will lose ~3% dps using Trailblazer instead of Viper (an absolutely trivial amount), and in exchange you will gain a nearly 40% increase to your HP (going from just shy of 16k to just over 22k) and will also gain almost 1200 Toughness. You will become almost completely unkillable in any situation. You will do Viper damage, and be considerably more survivable than even Rabid, and the list of things you will be able to solo will start to veer into the absurd.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @Toku.5972 said:

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:
    I ended up putting together both sets and tested them on a champ dummy in the mists.

    Rabid with undead runes vs Viper with krait

    Rabid takes almost twice as long to kill the same target, using the same skills. Even though my condi sheet damage is higher by a good 400+ the lack of expertese wins in the end because i can simply stack more bleeds, torments and burning before they expire, all this results in higher condi ticks than rabid gear.

    Sure i lose about 1k armor with viper, but honestly, it has enough utility to stay alive for most things.

    Ended up upgrading to nightmare runes from krait (lose 30% bleed duration[from 50%] but gain 20% every other duration). Now working on getting ascended armor and trinkets.

    Best thing is that viper condi mirage is a spec that can be used in fractals, all i have to do is switch to the axe/torch and thats it :)
    Thanks for all the help, i ended up really enjoying the build.

    The reason your Rabid build did so much worse is because Rabid's schtick is to leverage Sharper Images via high Precision, (shifting a huge chunk of your damage into Bleed) and you were using Undead Runes with that instead of Krait (to max that Bleed leverage).

    Comparing fully ascended gear (Rabid + Krait, Viper + Nightmare, Trailblazer + Nightmare) the dps differences narrow considerably.

    Rabid + Krait will be within 1kdps of Trailblazer + Nightmare, and Trailblazer will be within 500dps of Viper + Nightmare. Training golem w/self buffs only.

    The reason to run Rabid is for a cheaper alternative to Trailblazer. The reason to run Viper is for an easy transition into the Axe Mirage raid build.

    But for open world, Trailblazer (if you can afford it) is the absolute best, and I would strongly encourage you to make a set if that's your focus.

    You will lose ~3% dps using Trailblazer instead of Viper (an absolutely trivial amount), and in exchange you will gain a nearly 40% increase to your HP (going from just shy of 16k to just over 22k) and will also gain almost 1200 Toughness. You will become almost completely unkillable in any situation. You will do Viper damage, and be considerably more survivable than even Rabid, and the list of things you will be able to solo will start to veer into the absurd.

    Incredibly insightful post, thank you for sharing the comparison. I dont put in that much effort to build 3 sets to compare (or even theory craft them), so thanks a ton for that!

  • @Toku.5972 said:

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:
    I ended up putting together both sets and tested them on a champ dummy in the mists.

    Rabid with undead runes vs Viper with krait

    Rabid takes almost twice as long to kill the same target, using the same skills. Even though my condi sheet damage is higher by a good 400+ the lack of expertese wins in the end because i can simply stack more bleeds, torments and burning before they expire, all this results in higher condi ticks than rabid gear.

    Sure i lose about 1k armor with viper, but honestly, it has enough utility to stay alive for most things.

    Ended up upgrading to nightmare runes from krait (lose 30% bleed duration[from 50%] but gain 20% every other duration). Now working on getting ascended armor and trinkets.

    Best thing is that viper condi mirage is a spec that can be used in fractals, all i have to do is switch to the axe/torch and thats it :)
    Thanks for all the help, i ended up really enjoying the build.

    The reason your Rabid build did so much worse is because Rabid's schtick is to leverage Sharper Images via high Precision, (shifting a huge chunk of your damage into Bleed) and you were using Undead Runes with that instead of Krait (to max that Bleed leverage).

    Comparing fully ascended gear (Rabid + Krait, Viper + Nightmare, Trailblazer + Nightmare) the dps differences narrow considerably.

    Rabid + Krait will be within 1kdps of Trailblazer + Nightmare, and Trailblazer will be within 500dps of Viper + Nightmare. Training golem w/self buffs only.

    The reason to run Rabid is for a cheaper alternative to Trailblazer. The reason to run Viper is for an easy transition into the Axe Mirage raid build.

    But for open world, Trailblazer (if you can afford it) is the absolute best, and I would strongly encourage you to make a set if that's your focus.

    You will lose ~3% dps using Trailblazer instead of Viper (an absolutely trivial amount), and in exchange you will gain a nearly 40% increase to your HP (going from just shy of 16k to just over 22k) and will also gain almost 1200 Toughness. You will become almost completely unkillable in any situation. You will do Viper damage, and be considerably more survivable than even Rabid, and the list of things you will be able to solo will start to veer into the absurd.

    Thank you, i will keep that in mind.

  • Rabid, viper and trailblazer are all great to use, but its really hard to come to which is best if you're using the staff/staff build cause if you're rabid or trailblazer, you're gonna kinda wanna synergize with chaotic trasnsference but at the same you're only using staff anyway so you're gonna also want to use chaotic dampening...with the problem being those 2 traits are in the same trait tier, so i just run with viper so i can easily choose chaotic dampening cause i have no toughness. Expertise is really with this build so it can boil down more between viper and TB. Now, the big differences are that the precision from viper is definitely a great bonus considering you're using sharper images, the power on the other hand is useless for the build. So trailblazer now has all stats being useful but it can be hard choosing between chaotic transference and dampening but also, the precision from viper gives it an edge over TB. Rabid is good but i would say TB is better because power damage isn't the only form of damage in the game...you're still susceptible to condis. So at the end of the day viper is what i personally chose (after swapping between it and TB a few times) with nightmare runes, malice sigil, and all expertise infusions, midnight sigil so i basically have 97% condi duration and 100% in combat because of chaotic persistence. The might stacking from ambush 1 and vigor giving 150 condi dmg PLUS the condi dmg from Bountiful Disillusionment will give you like way over 300+ more condi dmg in combat; enough to stack staff ambushes like crazy. For utilities i recommend running mirage heal, midnight sigil, illusionary ambush, blink and jaunt ofc. Oh and energy sigils ofc :)

  • @Toku.5972 said:

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:
    I ended up putting together both sets and tested them on a champ dummy in the mists.

    Rabid with undead runes vs Viper with krait

    Rabid takes almost twice as long to kill the same target, using the same skills. Even though my condi sheet damage is higher by a good 400+ the lack of expertese wins in the end because i can simply stack more bleeds, torments and burning before they expire, all this results in higher condi ticks than rabid gear.

    Sure i lose about 1k armor with viper, but honestly, it has enough utility to stay alive for most things.

    Ended up upgrading to nightmare runes from krait (lose 30% bleed duration[from 50%] but gain 20% every other duration). Now working on getting ascended armor and trinkets.

    Best thing is that viper condi mirage is a spec that can be used in fractals, all i have to do is switch to the axe/torch and thats it :)
    Thanks for all the help, i ended up really enjoying the build.

    The reason your Rabid build did so much worse is because Rabid's schtick is to leverage Sharper Images via high Precision, (shifting a huge chunk of your damage into Bleed) and you were using Undead Runes with that instead of Krait (to max that Bleed leverage).

    Comparing fully ascended gear (Rabid + Krait, Viper + Nightmare, Trailblazer + Nightmare) the dps differences narrow considerably.

    Rabid + Krait will be within 1kdps of Trailblazer + Nightmare, and Trailblazer will be within 500dps of Viper + Nightmare. Training golem w/self buffs only.

    The reason to run Rabid is for a cheaper alternative to Trailblazer. The reason to run Viper is for an easy transition into the Axe Mirage raid build.

    But for open world, Trailblazer (if you can afford it) is the absolute best, and I would strongly encourage you to make a set if that's your focus.

    You will lose ~3% dps using Trailblazer instead of Viper (an absolutely trivial amount), and in exchange you will gain a nearly 40% increase to your HP (going from just shy of 16k to just over 22k) and will also gain almost 1200 Toughness. You will become almost completely unkillable in any situation. You will do Viper damage, and be considerably more survivable than even Rabid, and the list of things you will be able to solo will start to veer into the absurd.

    boss fi
    I don't think TB is best unless you're soloing some kind of high tier boss fights on the REGULAR, you will eventually get tired of TB such at the fact that nothing can really get you below 75% easily, you also get tired of it cause you're just invincible to to anything open world and compared to viper, you take a noticeably longer time to kill trash mobs or whatever. And also, no matter your stats, you being able to solo hard bosses comes down to knowing the mechanics/attacks of the boss, so you can still get rolled over using TB.

  • Oh and i also think viper would be always have an edge over rabid is because its not like you get 100% crit chance anyways using rabid, its a really chaotic/rng type of thing either way all considering the trait sharper images, so decent precision + great expertise >>> good precision + no expertise

  • KiteoHatto.7018KiteoHatto.7018 Member ✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    @necromaniac.7629 said:
    Oh and i also think viper would be always have an edge over rabid is because its not like you get 100% crit chance anyways using rabid, its a really chaotic/rng type of thing either way all considering the trait sharper images, so decent precision + great expertise >>> good precision + no expertise

    I think im happy with viper, i've learned how to survive in it while still doing leggy bounties in pof groups and from arcdps im usually in the top4 for dps with a staff.
    Another benefit is that i can just equip axe/torch+pistol and change a couple of traits and boom, its a fractal dps build (which i have no idea how to play btw..)

    The sigils i run are condi dmg, expertise.
    My utils are oasis heal, jaunt and the last one i always switch up depending what im doing. Its either a portal or reflect dome in most cases.
    I run malice+energy regen sigils on weps and i can spam ambush quite a lot, sometimes even add the heal for good measure lol

    Im undecided on the food though, do i buff my crit for sharper images or do i improve condi damage instead ?

    Out of 5 other characters i have, this is probably my favorite one as far as ranged OW playstyle goes.

    I tried power tempest and weaver and while aoe is big, i just dont find it that enjoyable and i feel way squishier with all zerk/assassin gear and 11k hp.
    Soulbeast, power specced is just...boring, you just use ult, sic em, maul, #5, maul, switch to axes or LB and repeat.
    Necro reaper is also boring, gravedigger goes whirrrrl.
    Guardian, i have firebrand and its...ok, it just feels like im playing a psuedo elementalist but wearing heavy armor and all i do is burn and bleed.
    I also have a condi renegade with shortbow and i love how simple it is to play and all the aoe options, its probably my second favorite after this mirage.

  • @KiteoHatto.7018 said:

    @necromaniac.7629 said:
    Oh and i also think viper would be always have an edge over rabid is because its not like you get 100% crit chance anyways using rabid, its a really chaotic/rng type of thing either way all considering the trait sharper images, so decent precision + great expertise >>> good precision + no expertise

    I think im happy with viper, i've learned how to survive in it while still doing leggy bounties in pof groups and from arcdps im usually in the top4 for dps with a staff.
    Another benefit is that i can just equip axe/torch+pistol and change a couple of traits and boom, its a fractal dps build (which i have no idea how to play btw..)

    The sigils i run are condi dmg, expertise.
    My utils are oasis heal, jaunt and the last one i always switch up depending what im doing. Its either a portal or reflect dome in most cases.
    I run malice+energy regen sigils on weps and i can spam ambush quite a lot, sometimes even add the heal for good measure lol

    Im undecided on the food though, do i buff my crit for sharper images or do i improve condi damage instead ?

    Out of 5 other characters i have, this is probably my favorite one as far as ranged OW playstyle goes.

    I tried power tempest and weaver and while aoe is big, i just dont find it that enjoyable and i feel way squishier with all zerk/assassin gear and 11k hp.
    Soulbeast, power specced is just...boring, you just use ult, sic em, maul, #5, maul, switch to axes or LB and repeat.
    Necro reaper is also boring, gravedigger goes whirrrrl.
    Guardian, i have firebrand and its...ok, it just feels like im playing a psuedo elementalist but wearing heavy armor and all i do is burn and bleed.
    I also have a condi renegade with shortbow and i love how simple it is to play and all the aoe options, its probably my second favorite after this mirage.

    Great, everything sounds good, I personally have a habit of not using food but i found food that can be useful; https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Orrian_Truffle_and_Meat_Stew and then this also for a little more precision and condi damage https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Saffron_Stuffed_Mushroom

  • KiteoHatto.7018KiteoHatto.7018 Member ✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Toku.5972 said:

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:
    I ended up putting together both sets and tested them on a champ dummy in the mists.

    Rabid with undead runes vs Viper with krait

    Rabid takes almost twice as long to kill the same target, using the same skills. Even though my condi sheet damage is higher by a good 400+ the lack of expertese wins in the end because i can simply stack more bleeds, torments and burning before they expire, all this results in higher condi ticks than rabid gear.

    Sure i lose about 1k armor with viper, but honestly, it has enough utility to stay alive for most things.

    Ended up upgrading to nightmare runes from krait (lose 30% bleed duration[from 50%] but gain 20% every other duration). Now working on getting ascended armor and trinkets.

    Best thing is that viper condi mirage is a spec that can be used in fractals, all i have to do is switch to the axe/torch and thats it :)
    Thanks for all the help, i ended up really enjoying the build.

    The reason your Rabid build did so much worse is because Rabid's schtick is to leverage Sharper Images via high Precision, (shifting a huge chunk of your damage into Bleed) and you were using Undead Runes with that instead of Krait (to max that Bleed leverage).

    Comparing fully ascended gear (Rabid + Krait, Viper + Nightmare, Trailblazer + Nightmare) the dps differences narrow considerably.

    Rabid + Krait will be within 1kdps of Trailblazer + Nightmare, and Trailblazer will be within 500dps of Viper + Nightmare. Training golem w/self buffs only.

    The reason to run Rabid is for a cheaper alternative to Trailblazer. The reason to run Viper is for an easy transition into the Axe Mirage raid build.

    But for open world, Trailblazer (if you can afford it) is the absolute best, and I would strongly encourage you to make a set if that's your focus.

    You will lose ~3% dps using Trailblazer instead of Viper (an absolutely trivial amount), and in exchange you will gain a nearly 40% increase to your HP (going from just shy of 16k to just over 22k) and will also gain almost 1200 Toughness. You will become almost completely unkillable in any situation. You will do Viper damage, and be considerably more survivable than even Rabid, and the list of things you will be able to solo will start to veer into the absurd.

    I can put together a trailblazer set now, but...im concerned about lack of precision on it. Since i need some crit for sharper images. The ascended trinkets let me pick whatever i want, should i get viper or rabid for trinkets ? How would you split it or should i even worry about crit ?

    I theorycrafted a little bit and i really think that crit is quite important to apply those bleeds faster so you can stack more.
    This looks like something im heading towards that im happy with, but im not sure if there is a better way to maintain crit, expertise and condi...as well as having some toughness and hp.
    Viper+TB split for armor
    3 Viper trinkets for condi, expertise and a little bit of precision
    3 Bringer trinkets for a big chunk of expertise and precision

    https://i.imgur.com/nTYoVEc.png
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiQAYlVwiYJMEmJWyP6PNA-zRZUNBhTG6oDzogwVEhUACPJnuBA-e

  • Toku.5972Toku.5972 Member ✭✭
    edited May 31, 2020

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:

    @Toku.5972 said:

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:
    I ended up putting together both sets and tested them on a champ dummy in the mists.

    Rabid with undead runes vs Viper with krait

    Rabid takes almost twice as long to kill the same target, using the same skills. Even though my condi sheet damage is higher by a good 400+ the lack of expertese wins in the end because i can simply stack more bleeds, torments and burning before they expire, all this results in higher condi ticks than rabid gear.

    Sure i lose about 1k armor with viper, but honestly, it has enough utility to stay alive for most things.

    Ended up upgrading to nightmare runes from krait (lose 30% bleed duration[from 50%] but gain 20% every other duration). Now working on getting ascended armor and trinkets.

    Best thing is that viper condi mirage is a spec that can be used in fractals, all i have to do is switch to the axe/torch and thats it :)
    Thanks for all the help, i ended up really enjoying the build.

    The reason your Rabid build did so much worse is because Rabid's schtick is to leverage Sharper Images via high Precision, (shifting a huge chunk of your damage into Bleed) and you were using Undead Runes with that instead of Krait (to max that Bleed leverage).

    Comparing fully ascended gear (Rabid + Krait, Viper + Nightmare, Trailblazer + Nightmare) the dps differences narrow considerably.

    Rabid + Krait will be within 1kdps of Trailblazer + Nightmare, and Trailblazer will be within 500dps of Viper + Nightmare. Training golem w/self buffs only.

    The reason to run Rabid is for a cheaper alternative to Trailblazer. The reason to run Viper is for an easy transition into the Axe Mirage raid build.

    But for open world, Trailblazer (if you can afford it) is the absolute best, and I would strongly encourage you to make a set if that's your focus.

    You will lose ~3% dps using Trailblazer instead of Viper (an absolutely trivial amount), and in exchange you will gain a nearly 40% increase to your HP (going from just shy of 16k to just over 22k) and will also gain almost 1200 Toughness. You will become almost completely unkillable in any situation. You will do Viper damage, and be considerably more survivable than even Rabid, and the list of things you will be able to solo will start to veer into the absurd.

    I can put together a trailblazer set now, but...im concerned about lack of precision on it. Since i need some crit for sharper images. The ascended trinkets let me pick whatever i want, should i get viper or rabid for trinkets ? How would you split it or should i even worry about crit ?

    I theorycrafted a little bit and i really think that crit is quite important to apply those bleeds faster so you can stack more.
    This looks like something im heading towards that im happy with, but im not sure if there is a better way to maintain crit, expertise and condi...as well as having some toughness and hp.
    Viper+TB split for armor
    3 Viper trinkets for condi, expertise and a little bit of precision
    3 Bringer trinkets for a big chunk of expertise and precision

    https://i.imgur.com/nTYoVEc.png
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiQAYlVwiYJMEmJWyP6PNA-zRZUNBhTG6oDzogwVEhUACPJnuBA-e

    There is a 3% dps difference between having high crit (full vipers) and having low crit (full trailblazers). I don't personally find that to be enough dps to offset the loss of HP and Toughness since ultimately the point of Staff/Staff is to be killing ridiculous things by yourself, and what increases that performance is survivability. Three percent dps is not worth 6000 HP and 1200 Toughness in Open World. Mixing and matching only makes the difference smaller (i.e. less than 3%), and even less worth doing to me. Staff/Staff's intended Open World use gets the most benefit from full Trailblazer, and the immortality that comes with it. Remember that you will have permanent Fury as well, and will still be at around 30% crit chance because of it in full Trailblazer. Adding 20% crit to that doesn't do as much as you might be thinking it does because of how slowly the projectiles of Staff/Staff attack. Staff does not leverage Precision to the same degree as Axe.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Toku.5972 said:

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:

    @Toku.5972 said:

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:
    I ended up putting together both sets and tested them on a champ dummy in the mists.

    Rabid with undead runes vs Viper with krait

    Rabid takes almost twice as long to kill the same target, using the same skills. Even though my condi sheet damage is higher by a good 400+ the lack of expertese wins in the end because i can simply stack more bleeds, torments and burning before they expire, all this results in higher condi ticks than rabid gear.

    Sure i lose about 1k armor with viper, but honestly, it has enough utility to stay alive for most things.

    Ended up upgrading to nightmare runes from krait (lose 30% bleed duration[from 50%] but gain 20% every other duration). Now working on getting ascended armor and trinkets.

    Best thing is that viper condi mirage is a spec that can be used in fractals, all i have to do is switch to the axe/torch and thats it :)
    Thanks for all the help, i ended up really enjoying the build.

    The reason your Rabid build did so much worse is because Rabid's schtick is to leverage Sharper Images via high Precision, (shifting a huge chunk of your damage into Bleed) and you were using Undead Runes with that instead of Krait (to max that Bleed leverage).

    Comparing fully ascended gear (Rabid + Krait, Viper + Nightmare, Trailblazer + Nightmare) the dps differences narrow considerably.

    Rabid + Krait will be within 1kdps of Trailblazer + Nightmare, and Trailblazer will be within 500dps of Viper + Nightmare. Training golem w/self buffs only.

    The reason to run Rabid is for a cheaper alternative to Trailblazer. The reason to run Viper is for an easy transition into the Axe Mirage raid build.

    But for open world, Trailblazer (if you can afford it) is the absolute best, and I would strongly encourage you to make a set if that's your focus.

    You will lose ~3% dps using Trailblazer instead of Viper (an absolutely trivial amount), and in exchange you will gain a nearly 40% increase to your HP (going from just shy of 16k to just over 22k) and will also gain almost 1200 Toughness. You will become almost completely unkillable in any situation. You will do Viper damage, and be considerably more survivable than even Rabid, and the list of things you will be able to solo will start to veer into the absurd.

    I can put together a trailblazer set now, but...im concerned about lack of precision on it. Since i need some crit for sharper images. The ascended trinkets let me pick whatever i want, should i get viper or rabid for trinkets ? How would you split it or should i even worry about crit ?

    I theorycrafted a little bit and i really think that crit is quite important to apply those bleeds faster so you can stack more.
    This looks like something im heading towards that im happy with, but im not sure if there is a better way to maintain crit, expertise and condi...as well as having some toughness and hp.
    Viper+TB split for armor
    3 Viper trinkets for condi, expertise and a little bit of precision
    3 Bringer trinkets for a big chunk of expertise and precision

    https://i.imgur.com/nTYoVEc.png
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiQAYlVwiYJMEmJWyP6PNA-zRZUNBhTG6oDzogwVEhUACPJnuBA-e

    There is a 3% dps difference between having high crit (full vipers) and having low crit (full trailblazers). I don't personally find that to be enough dps to offset the loss of HP and Toughness since ultimately the point of Staff/Staff is to be killing ridiculous things by yourself, and what increases that performance is survivability. Three percent dps is not worth 6000 HP and 1200 Toughness in Open World. Mixing and matching only makes the difference smaller (i.e. less than 3%), and even less worth doing to me. Staff/Staff's intended Open World use gets the most benefit from full Trailblazer, and the immortality that comes with it. Remember that you will have permanent Fury as well, and will still be at around 30% crit chance because of it in full Trailblazer. Adding 20% crit to that doesn't do as much as you might be thinking it does because of how slowly the projectiles of Staff/Staff attack. Staff does not leverage Precision to the same degree as Axe.

    where do you get 3% from? I switched all the trail gear to viper and its 10% condi damage, not even counting any power damage and extra sharper procs due to extra crit chance.

  • Toku.5972Toku.5972 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Toku.5972 said:

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:

    @Toku.5972 said:

    @KiteoHatto.7018 said:
    I ended up putting together both sets and tested them on a champ dummy in the mists.

    Rabid with undead runes vs Viper with krait

    Rabid takes almost twice as long to kill the same target, using the same skills. Even though my condi sheet damage is higher by a good 400+ the lack of expertese wins in the end because i can simply stack more bleeds, torments and burning before they expire, all this results in higher condi ticks than rabid gear.

    Sure i lose about 1k armor with viper, but honestly, it has enough utility to stay alive for most things.

    Ended up upgrading to nightmare runes from krait (lose 30% bleed duration[from 50%] but gain 20% every other duration). Now working on getting ascended armor and trinkets.

    Best thing is that viper condi mirage is a spec that can be used in fractals, all i have to do is switch to the axe/torch and thats it :)
    Thanks for all the help, i ended up really enjoying the build.

    The reason your Rabid build did so much worse is because Rabid's schtick is to leverage Sharper Images via high Precision, (shifting a huge chunk of your damage into Bleed) and you were using Undead Runes with that instead of Krait (to max that Bleed leverage).

    Comparing fully ascended gear (Rabid + Krait, Viper + Nightmare, Trailblazer + Nightmare) the dps differences narrow considerably.

    Rabid + Krait will be within 1kdps of Trailblazer + Nightmare, and Trailblazer will be within 500dps of Viper + Nightmare. Training golem w/self buffs only.

    The reason to run Rabid is for a cheaper alternative to Trailblazer. The reason to run Viper is for an easy transition into the Axe Mirage raid build.

    But for open world, Trailblazer (if you can afford it) is the absolute best, and I would strongly encourage you to make a set if that's your focus.

    You will lose ~3% dps using Trailblazer instead of Viper (an absolutely trivial amount), and in exchange you will gain a nearly 40% increase to your HP (going from just shy of 16k to just over 22k) and will also gain almost 1200 Toughness. You will become almost completely unkillable in any situation. You will do Viper damage, and be considerably more survivable than even Rabid, and the list of things you will be able to solo will start to veer into the absurd.

    I can put together a trailblazer set now, but...im concerned about lack of precision on it. Since i need some crit for sharper images. The ascended trinkets let me pick whatever i want, should i get viper or rabid for trinkets ? How would you split it or should i even worry about crit ?

    I theorycrafted a little bit and i really think that crit is quite important to apply those bleeds faster so you can stack more.
    This looks like something im heading towards that im happy with, but im not sure if there is a better way to maintain crit, expertise and condi...as well as having some toughness and hp.
    Viper+TB split for armor
    3 Viper trinkets for condi, expertise and a little bit of precision
    3 Bringer trinkets for a big chunk of expertise and precision

    https://i.imgur.com/nTYoVEc.png
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiQAYlVwiYJMEmJWyP6PNA-zRZUNBhTG6oDzogwVEhUACPJnuBA-e

    There is a 3% dps difference between having high crit (full vipers) and having low crit (full trailblazers). I don't personally find that to be enough dps to offset the loss of HP and Toughness since ultimately the point of Staff/Staff is to be killing ridiculous things by yourself, and what increases that performance is survivability. Three percent dps is not worth 6000 HP and 1200 Toughness in Open World. Mixing and matching only makes the difference smaller (i.e. less than 3%), and even less worth doing to me. Staff/Staff's intended Open World use gets the most benefit from full Trailblazer, and the immortality that comes with it. Remember that you will have permanent Fury as well, and will still be at around 30% crit chance because of it in full Trailblazer. Adding 20% crit to that doesn't do as much as you might be thinking it does because of how slowly the projectiles of Staff/Staff attack. Staff does not leverage Precision to the same degree as Axe.

    where do you get 3% from? I switched all the trail gear to viper and its 10% condi damage, not even counting any power damage and extra sharper procs due to extra crit chance.

    Repeated training golem tests in the Aerodome using all three gear setups and a variety of buff combinations. In every test combination (I ran each four times), Trailblazer came out to about 3% less dps than Viper for Staff/Staff. Staff does virtually no power damage, and the proc damage of sharper images is offset to an extent by Chaotic Transference. If you were using Axe instead of Staff, Viper would pull further ahead, but for Staff the difference is negligible.