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NA's Low Platinum population and its effect on PvP, also how to improve it

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  • skillze.7689skillze.7689 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2020

    Maybe make the participation system add onto another counter that adds your daily contribution and goes to a max level of 7 which is only accessable through consistant gameplay over a week and as soon as decay kicks in it resets. This unlocks a new tab on the ascended shard vendor that has these rewards that everyone can get for playing daily and cost high amounts of ascended shards as another incentive for consistant gameplay and are only account bound and not tradeable.

    But im not to sure about this idea as an incentive its just an idea based on @Chaith.8256 first suggestion or maybe not a week maybe make it for the whole season like @Leonidrex.5649 suggested ?

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    @apharma.3741

    Actually I'm quite convinced the best way to improve match quality is to have those decent players play way more games.

    1.) An outmanned debuff where increased rewards for playing off-peak hours could also help, which I think is great, but can't help but point out you're saying "increased rewards completely misses the problem" and then suggest increased rewards.

    2.) E-sports return to motivate players to get better. I'd be all for that, because I'm the only one in this thread who realizes that improvements aren't mutually exclusive, even if I think the evidence it will work is dubious, like e-sports increasing the yolo Q match quality.

    Your idea misses the point because it's a blanket increase to rewards in platinum rank but the way you worded your problem it's the time period that's the issue not necessarily the rank as you're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    That's regardless of whether I agree or disagree with your statements.

    It's hard to know if some form of e-sports e-kitten would really have a good effect but certainly players would be under more scrutiny and so less likely to be the...choice words I won't repeat on this forum.

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭

    I made a post before regarding matchmaking, and whether you agreed or disagreed with me, I think there were some good opinions presented. One guy, however, said that the +1 increase in PIP from being in Platinum over Gold was a reason why Plat should stay more exclusive. A literal +1 PIP difference, compared to your immense rewards for being in Platinum.

    In terms of gameplay, I really do not see a difference between Plat 1 players and Gold players. IMO, the difference between Plat 2 players and Plat 1 players is greater than the difference between Plat 1 players and Gold 1 players.
    I think you focusing on "Gold 1 players are bad, run off meta, and don't care about reaching Platinum" is misguided. Like in your example, a Gold 1 player running some meta condi Rev build is better than some Gold 1 running Power shatter mirage. I would say, a Gold 1 running condi Rev is better than a Plat 1 running Power shatter mirage.

    Anyways, from my perspective, the real issue is population. You can't increase rewards for reaching Platinum and think it will help increase the gameplay. Like look at the rankings now. IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong), the cutoff for Top 250 this season is actually higher than the cutoff for Top 250 last season.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2020

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    Not particularly, I think that even during prime time there are some wacky pulls of lower rated players into 1550-1850.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2020

    It wouldn't be a fair solution.

    Players in the US region already have an unfair advantage in PvP to the rest of the world due to their superior connection response time.
    Since Ranked PvP is already a huge gold mine, further bolster reward for players abusing this advantage wouldn't help PvPs nor encourage players with 200 pings and above.

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2020

    it's pretty amazing you're still playing this game. really.
    good discussion.

    my opinion is that ANet simply needs to move away from 5v5 and control. we've been playing this for 8 years, and it's feelsbadman.

    balance should occur for deathmatch (2v2 and 3v3) on one end. and on the other end, for WvW-esque GvG blob stuff (15v15, 20v20) as SEPARATE balancing. Wrong forums I know, but there are a lot of people who like the blob synergy business. ANet's catastrophic mismanagement of pvp resources had to do with them investing all their eggs into 5v5 control, which has been a trash gamemode since 2012. With a side of Stronghold trashfire. Like, ALL the wrong moves.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I've thought off that, the many example perks I suggested are unlockable at higher ratings, not freebies for new players.

    Still seems like smoke & mirrors, jingle keys, or a band-aid solution at best. There are people who actually want to play to compete, and couldn't care less about virtual rewards.

    Actual new content and getting rid of or fixing the broken exploitable content that has been proven time and again to not work; that is likely how they'll begin to populate the middle-tiers. AKA the people who actually want to play to grow and get better, and probably aren't going to be swayed by jingle key rewards although it is tempting.

    Remove or Split DuoQ, revolution of our time! 😷

  • anjo.6143anjo.6143 Member ✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    100% agree with everything Chaith has already said. But let me shed some more light onto this topic. Hear me out, I think this may be rather important for his discussion concerning "Where the hell are the plat players?"

    I've played with a lot of new guys over the years in voice chats. Here is the typical GW2 experience that I hear from most of these people:

    • They practice a bit in Unranked, get a feel for the game.
    • Run their first placements and tag in at around silver 3. They somewhat adapt quickly and begin playing around gold 1 consistently for their first 50 games or so.
    • They are only being put against maybe like gold 3s as their hard hitting opponents, so they may be losing but it isn't a roflstomping god-smack to the face, so the opponents feel contestable to them, and the new player is having fun learning how to breach the skill of those opponents. The game is fun to them.
    • The new players who care will eventually approach some guy with a plat badge and ask him how they can better play their class and what build is good. The ones who actually take the advice, usually immediately graduate into gold 2-3 range. Now they are really feeling like "They're getting something done. They're getting better at the game." And the journey of using these new discovered builds & job roles is amazingly fun when they are quickly learning how to surpass the players who once challenged them in gold 1 tier. They finish the season while hovering around bottom gold 3.
    • The next season begins and they've been 1v1ing practicing all off season. Now they're real fired up and ready to go. They slowly creep up into high gold, and it's fun. they can feel their personal skill increases, which is a pleasing thing to experience. Now they're finding themselves winning against some bottom platinum opponents but still losing to some, which they are having a hard time surmounting. But it's all within the realm of being "obtainable" and they are still having fun.
    • During that same season, they finally reach up into 1500 range for the very first time and they are super excited about it. It was quite the journey over the course of a season and a half of playing, 400 games or something, to have graduated from silver 3 to bottom plat 1. The very next game they queue, they are in a game with a top 20 duo against a top 20 duo. They immediately recognize that the difference between a 1500 and a 1700+ is much much larger than the difference between a 1300 and a 1500. During the 1300 to 1500 phase, why they were winning or losing was actually identifiable to them and they could set realistic goals for working to surpass their limitations. But while suddenly entering the 1500 to 1700+ phase, they become confused as to what is even happening in the match. They don't understand how players are killing them so fast. They don't understand what it even is they could do better or what they are doing wrong. They don't see any realistic goals to set for becoming better, aside from dedicating professional basement troll sweaty try hard levels of time invested, as if they were aiming to win a cash prize or something. <- And this is where the breaking point is, where people don't stick around.

    The only people who stick around when meeting that 1500+ wall, are the ones who are strangely and manically obsessed with this game, which is definitely hindering the growth of the platinum community, and that goes back into what Chaith was original saying. There are two main reasons that I have viewed, that largely contribute to why most people don't stick around past 1500+

    1. It's just too kitten sweaty. Most people are really turned off by maximum curb stomping in ways that they are completely helpless to prevent. People don't mind losing and being made to get better, that's where the fun is. But people really do not like going against the actual best players in the game, every other match they queue. During the 1300 to 1500 experience, a player has breathing room to progress from point A to point B to point C, ect ect. But when they hit 1500 to 1700+ phase, they pretty much have to ascend from point D to Z immediately, if they want to be mechanically functional in the match at all, and for most people they decide the investment is too much of a hassle to get involved in.
    2. And this is the BIGGER reasons why people leave - Once a person has touched plat badge, they then begin to feel like they deserve the plat badge. When they are unable to reobtain the plat badge, they seriously rage quit and do not come back. In the past 12 months, I've had SO MANY contacts disappear never to be seen again, many of them Warriors & Mesmers actually. And this usually promptly happens after a night of hearing someone complain in the discord after they've spammed 50 games and are unable to reobtain bottom plat. They just rage quit out of not being able to maintain some kind of social appearance within the community.

    Aside from all of the other problems that we could discuss, such as too much alt play in the top of the leaderboards, or all of the reasons that plat players have to milk 3 day decay times and avoid play, my point in bringing all of this up, is for Chaith's discussion concerning the lack of plat worthy opponents queueing. I believe that what we are looking at in terms of the biggest culprits preventing platinums from queueing frequently, are two things:

    1. There is almost a complete lack of platinum community growth, due to that wall of gtfo that I mentioned, that new players experience. And that ego rage when a player can't get that plat badge that they feel they deserve.
    2. Old platinum veterans all know that queueing is dangerous, and that once you've achieved a desired position, it is every bit advantageous to avoid play as much as possible, and only queue 1 game every 3 days, and only ever do it when it is safe to do so.

    I mean, Ranked is currently designed to kill player incentive to queue past 1500. This is a serious problem to say the least.

    So what can be done to fix these 2 outstanding problems? I dunno, you tell me. I'm just hear to point out what I've noticed to be the largest contributing factors as to why there is a serious lack of platinum worthy opponents in queue.

    Simply amazing. That is it.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trigr.6481 said:
    First off, a terrible player running a good build is still a terrible player, and will get farmed regardless. Secondly, your grand idea to "fix it" is just adding more rewards? Do you honestly think that's going to attract people outside the game who aren't playing currently? Who would look at ranked conquest right now regardless of rewards and say "Wow that looks fun" Every single player myself included can only play for so long before getting stage 4 terminal cancer from the amount of aids that we encounter from terrible team mates. The only way ranked conquest is getting any better is with a few thousand players so the matchmaking can actually do its job properly.

    Bingo. What matters is whether it's fun. It's not that fun right now.

    • Balance is a large factor. The game was decent back in core. It had a few outliers, which ANet was too slow to ever fix, but it was playable. Now it's ruined by power creep which doesn't seem like it will ever go away. Sure, damage was reduced, but the power creep is still there. People who rolled a character because of a particular playstyle which existed years ago still want to enjoy that playstyle. Not everyone wants to drop for the FotM class. And many of those FotM are frustrating to play against because they're far more forgiving than it takes to beat them.
    • Assuming balance was fixed and the game was more fun, I'd rather play with friends than alone. That means I'm likely not able to play ranked because of the asinine duo queue restriction.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    • During that same season, they finally reach up into 1500 range for the very first time and they are super excited about it. It was quite the journey over the course of a season and a half of playing, 400 games or something, to have graduated from silver 3 to bottom plat 1. The very next game they queue, they are in a game with a top 20 duo against a top 20 duo. They immediately recognize that the difference between a 1500 and a 1700+ is much much larger than the difference between a 1300 and a 1500. During the 1300 to 1500 phase, why they were winning or losing was actually identifiable to them and they could set realistic goals for working to surpass their limitations. But while suddenly entering the 1500 to 1700+ phase, they become confused as to what is even happening in the match. They don't understand how players are killing them so fast. They don't understand what it even is they could do better or what they are doing wrong. They don't see any realistic goals to set for becoming better, aside from dedicating professional basement troll sweaty try hard levels of time invested, as if they were aiming to win a cash prize or something. <- And this is where the breaking point is, where people don't stick around.

    This happens because no one plays as a team anymore and few have bothered to learn how to play the game mode. You can climb to platinum by playing a meta build decently. But once there, winning depends more on picking fights you can win and avoiding or retreating from ones which you can't. Nothing up until that point conveys the conquest mindset. Why is that?

    I'd argue it's because there's no team queue. When you don't have teams in a team-based format, it becomes "every man for himself". It promotes an environment of "it's everyone else's fault" and breeds players who thump their chest because they win a few meaningless fights. Build diversity suffers - few people want to play support or node-holder builds. Why put in the effort to play as a team if you'll never face anyone else who plays as a team? The knowledge of how to play the conquest format well doesn't get shared because the environment discourages it.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:
    First off, a terrible player running a good build is still a terrible player, and will get farmed regardless. Secondly, your grand idea to "fix it" is just adding more rewards? Do you honestly think that's going to attract people outside the game who aren't playing currently? Who would look at ranked conquest right now regardless of rewards and say "Wow that looks fun" Every single player myself included can only play for so long before getting stage 4 terminal cancer from the amount of aids that we encounter from terrible team mates. The only way ranked conquest is getting any better is with a few thousand players so the matchmaking can actually do its job properly.

    Bingo. What matters is whether it's fun. It's not that fun right now.

    • Balance is a large factor. The game was decent back in core. It had a few outliers, which ANet was too slow to ever fix, but it was playable. Now it's ruined by power creep which doesn't seem like it will ever go away. Sure, damage was reduced, but the power creep is still there. People who rolled a character because of a particular playstyle which existed years ago still want to enjoy that playstyle. Not everyone wants to drop for the FotM class. And many of those FotM are frustrating to play against because they're far more forgiving than it takes to beat them.
    • Assuming balance was fixed and the game was more fun, I'd rather play with friends than alone. That means I'm likely not able to play ranked because of the asinine duo queue restriction.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    • During that same season, they finally reach up into 1500 range for the very first time and they are super excited about it. It was quite the journey over the course of a season and a half of playing, 400 games or something, to have graduated from silver 3 to bottom plat 1. The very next game they queue, they are in a game with a top 20 duo against a top 20 duo. They immediately recognize that the difference between a 1500 and a 1700+ is much much larger than the difference between a 1300 and a 1500. During the 1300 to 1500 phase, why they were winning or losing was actually identifiable to them and they could set realistic goals for working to surpass their limitations. But while suddenly entering the 1500 to 1700+ phase, they become confused as to what is even happening in the match. They don't understand how players are killing them so fast. They don't understand what it even is they could do better or what they are doing wrong. They don't see any realistic goals to set for becoming better, aside from dedicating professional basement troll sweaty try hard levels of time invested, as if they were aiming to win a cash prize or something. <- And this is where the breaking point is, where people don't stick around.

    This happens because no one plays as a team anymore and few have bothered to learn how to play the game mode. You can climb to platinum by playing a meta build decently. But once there, winning depends more on picking fights you can win and avoiding or retreating from ones which you can't. Nothing up until that point conveys the conquest mindset. Why is that?

    I'd argue it's because there's no team queue. When you don't have teams in a team-based format, it becomes "every man for himself". It promotes an environment of "it's everyone else's fault" and breeds players who thump their chest because they win a few meaningless fights. Build diversity suffers - few people want to play support or node-holder builds. Why put in the effort to play as a team if you'll never face anyone else who plays as a team? The knowledge of how to play the conquest format well doesn't get shared because the environment discourages it.

    ^ That's exactly what I mean though and definitely part of the problem.

    The old veterans who were around during the ESL "Let's try hard to form a team" era, were able to experience the game in an entirely different and very advanced way. Some of us had YEARS to be able to learn while in TS or Discord in actual teams that were actually trying hard. So even during yolo/duo only, that experience carries over in ways that new players just cannot keep up with.

    Can you imagine having 400-600 games under your belt, you just touched 1480 rating, you've never been in a voice chat with anyone to ever learn anything about higher tier conquest play, and you're going against two Team USA members who have someone 1650 with them that's also been around since year 1. There are things happening in that scenario that the new casual player will never even be able to identify why or how they are losing so badly.

    Then of course most of these new players who are expecting a non-ESL based casual game to be casual, they don't want to have to try that hard to be able to breach into 1500-1600 play. As the years have gone on, and we've had many discussions about this in the forum, the big difference between who wanted it and who didn't it, was a big red line drawn between who was willing to get into and use a voice chat, and who wasn't. That is still true to this day and it dictates who is able to surpass that 1500 mark and who isn't. Players who actually actively seek out a real AT team, which that aren't many left of, are the players who eventually learn to "see conquest" in the way it was meant to be seen. And those are the players who even though they may still be bottom plat, they are able to at least recognize what it is they need to do or not do to be able to win a match, and why that match was won or lost. Therein the lies the potential to begin playing into 1500-1600, and the only thing holding them back at that point is just mechanical polishing and keeping up on patch to patch knowledge. But see the players who do not do that, will never see the game in that way, and so they will never rise into the playing field of the old veterans we have now.

    So what Chaith is saying, I agree with. But I do not think that rewards alone will get older players to play more. Furthermore, I do not think that rewards luring in new players will matter at all, for the reasons I just mentioned. To make this game work for another 2 to 4+ years, we need a serious change in the infrastructure of how all of this is working on a core fundamental level of game design. I don't know if that means a new game mode, or if it means overhauling how our conquest works, but that is what needs to happen in my opinion.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    Not particularly, I think that even during prime time there are some wacky pulls of lower rated players into 1550-1850.

    Sure but there's not a lot that can be done about it when the population is low except making PvP fun and encouraging people to try it out and play it every now and then. ESLs would bring some more hype to PvP.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    Not particularly, I think that even during prime time there are some wacky pulls of lower rated players into 1550-1850.

    Sure but there's not a lot that can be done about it when the population is low except making PvP fun and encouraging people to try it out and play it every now and then. ESLs would bring some more hype to PvP.

    Agreed, ESL is never coming back though and is totally unrealistic. You'll have to let go

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Fix balance, never be perfect but as of now its complete trash level.
    Make rankings more dependent on personal performance AND team play.
    Make ALL decent rewards only achievable thru won games therefore giving players incentive to actually win matches instead of just being present for em.
    Add few more gamemode.
    Rest would take care of itself.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Fix balance, never be perfect but as of now its complete trash level.
    Make rankings more dependent on personal performance AND team play.
    Make ALL decent rewards only achievable thru won games therefore giving players incentive to actually win matches instead of just being present for em.
    Add few more gamemode.
    Rest would take care of itself.

    Good goals, which I am 100% behind, but very similar to saying if we solve world hunger, poverty, cure cancer, the rest will take care of itself. How do you do all those things tho?

    • Balance has been perpetually the same, 1-2 underdog professions, one meta build per profession otherwise. Utterly standard. Every balance patch is just the truffle shuffle - what's the answer to really improving balance long-term? Current patch is always seen as the worst of all time tho. :+1:

    • Different rating based on their personal performance? That would be great if it wasn't very likely be gamed, very hard. Example, make everyone +1800 rated queue up at 5am even more, to be able to be a god among nine other 1400 rated players and collect brownie points for their great personal performance relative to others. Of hecking course their personal performance will be 4x anyone else on their team, win or loss. What's the answer to fairly giving players unique rating based on performance?

    • Give players a reward inventive to win? That's what ArenaNet was going for with a rated league complete with visible rating, badges, titles. Many like myself are trying to win for fun on top. It's all well and good except for the low pop problem I'm addressing in my thread. People are only losing the desire to win, (desire to live) when they get repeatedly rofflestomped by duos rated 400 rated higher or forced to solo queue and watch their 4 teammates crash and burn in 60 seconds.

    • Add more gamemodes, common suggestion, but what game mode is good and fair enough to have a savior effect on PvP? I don't know and nobody does. It wasn't stronghold, or the lukewarm reception to 2v2 (team annihilation) mode. I'm out of guesses, anyone have a real offering here?

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    Not particularly, I think that even during prime time there are some wacky pulls of lower rated players into 1550-1850.

    Sure but there's not a lot that can be done about it when the population is low except making PvP fun and encouraging people to try it out and play it every now and then. ESLs would bring some more hype to PvP.

    Agreed, ESL is never coming back though and is totally unrealistic. You'll have to let go

    If you'd asked me a year ago if we'd ever get a proper rebalance of the game to remove a lot of the powercreep I'd have said no, I wouldn't count out ESLs entirely.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    Not particularly, I think that even during prime time there are some wacky pulls of lower rated players into 1550-1850.

    Sure but there's not a lot that can be done about it when the population is low except making PvP fun and encouraging people to try it out and play it every now and then. ESLs would bring some more hype to PvP.

    Agreed, ESL is never coming back though and is totally unrealistic. You'll have to let go

    If you'd asked me a year ago if we'd ever get a proper rebalance of the game to remove a lot of the powercreep I'd have said no, I wouldn't count out ESLs entirely.

    The public would respect GW2 eSports returning about as much as we respect the 7th re-release of Bless Online.

    That's why it won't happen. PvP forum = love GW2 eSports. Everyone else at ArenaNet and ESL would veto, hard.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Drennon.7190Drennon.7190 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    Not particularly, I think that even during prime time there are some wacky pulls of lower rated players into 1550-1850.

    Sure but there's not a lot that can be done about it when the population is low except making PvP fun and encouraging people to try it out and play it every now and then. ESLs would bring some more hype to PvP.

    Agreed, ESL is never coming back though and is totally unrealistic. You'll have to let go

    If you'd asked me a year ago if we'd ever get a proper rebalance of the game to remove a lot of the powercreep I'd have said no, I wouldn't count out ESLs entirely.

    ESL requires a fan base and viewers. GW2 does not pull viewers. A “successful” event for GW2 is now 1000 to 2000 viewers, which doesn’t even become a blip on the esports radar. It’s a bad investment for ESL and won’t happen.

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭

    You aren't going to fix this problem unless you increase the divide between the skill floor and ceiling. and since this is an MMORPG well... that's not going to happen is it.

  • choovanski.5462choovanski.5462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    People are only losing the desire to win, (desire to live) when they get repeatedly rofflestomped by duos rated 400 rated higher or forced to solo queue and watch their 4 teammates crash and burn in 60 seconds.

    gonna highlight this here. this game needs a team queue mode, or else it will always feel like teammate roulette- because with the small pop it is.

    no one I've brought to this game recently is keen on solo queue only ranked, because it makes it a frustrating joke. I literally had a friend lose 3 games in a row because of the same afk toxic player, he ended up having to solve this by queue dodging the guy. anet's refusal to ban anyone for any reason, regardless of how badly they behave has given a free pass to toxic behaviour in ranked, and it seriously detracts from the fun of the experience.

    literally the only reason to play ranked is for the rewards right now. the players are just as bad, as they are in unranked- to be honest I've encountered far more MAT players in unranked (why play unranked you ask? more than 1 other person in discord and I'm not antisocial lol). the match quality is completely all over the place in both modes, NA just doesn't seem to have the playerbase to make good matches.

    so, if you want more people to play, and to play more often- uh how about letting them play with each other instead of having to carry randoms and deal with toxic afk players- because that's frustrating. that makes people not want to queue ranked. that forces people to queue dodge and do other low level match manipulation. that stops them telling their buddies they play other games with to come play ranked with them, because they can't play together.

    will the perma solo queue heroes complain? yeah, but they are already complaining about their teammates, often talking trash in map chat and going afk too. they are already toxic and salty, there is no pleasing them, it's impossible. there will always be something for them to blame a loss on and mald about, just save the rest of us the pain from having to have them on our team reeeeeeeing at spawn because someone played warrior.

    It's coming for me through the trees
    Help me someone
    Help me please
    Take my shoes off and throw them in the lake

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drennon.7190 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    Not particularly, I think that even during prime time there are some wacky pulls of lower rated players into 1550-1850.

    Sure but there's not a lot that can be done about it when the population is low except making PvP fun and encouraging people to try it out and play it every now and then. ESLs would bring some more hype to PvP.

    Agreed, ESL is never coming back though and is totally unrealistic. You'll have to let go

    If you'd asked me a year ago if we'd ever get a proper rebalance of the game to remove a lot of the powercreep I'd have said no, I wouldn't count out ESLs entirely.

    ESL requires a fan base and viewers. GW2 does not pull viewers. A “successful” event for GW2 is now 1000 to 2000 viewers, which doesn’t even become a blip on the esports radar. It’s a bad investment for ESL and won’t happen.

    Weekly/monthly ESLs for GW2 didn't have a lot of viewers, can't remember the exact numbers but I'm pretty sure it was sub 1,000 and ESL kept it up for years. Not everything has to draw in 40k+ viewers and $100k prize pools to be a success.

  • Drennon.7190Drennon.7190 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Drennon.7190 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    Not particularly, I think that even during prime time there are some wacky pulls of lower rated players into 1550-1850.

    Sure but there's not a lot that can be done about it when the population is low except making PvP fun and encouraging people to try it out and play it every now and then. ESLs would bring some more hype to PvP.

    Agreed, ESL is never coming back though and is totally unrealistic. You'll have to let go

    If you'd asked me a year ago if we'd ever get a proper rebalance of the game to remove a lot of the powercreep I'd have said no, I wouldn't count out ESLs entirely.

    ESL requires a fan base and viewers. GW2 does not pull viewers. A “successful” event for GW2 is now 1000 to 2000 viewers, which doesn’t even become a blip on the esports radar. It’s a bad investment for ESL and won’t happen.

    Weekly/monthly ESLs for GW2 didn't have a lot of viewers, can't remember the exact numbers but I'm pretty sure it was sub 1,000 and ESL kept it up for years. Not everything has to draw in 40k+ viewers and $100k prize pools to be a success.

    Viewership/population wasn’t enough for them to renew their contract then. Why would they do it now when even less people play or even care about the game?

  • Wolfey.3407Wolfey.3407 Member ✭✭

    GW2 ESL was nothing short than a horrid attempt to become a botch job of a Busch League.
    Drunk and wasted Anet partnered trashing the game and the developers after winning a match or tournament.
    Developers punishing cheaters and drunken fools with the most laughable punishments that served nothing more as an inconvenience for the offenders.
    Commentators self promoting themselves the whole time or showing extreme favoritism to one player or team to a sickening level.
    The only thing that ESL scene provided for GW2 were laughable articles to read when you're on the toilet and some "drama".

    The population issue for PVP is nothing new with regards to skilled players or general populace. I'm all for any idea that will fix this. However, I strongly believe ESL is a horrible idea. At best, it will only generate minor interest with the PVE community to try out PVP until they realize that the community is as supportive as a broken bra strap. For the PVP community, it will only create talking points between matches and something new for them to farm until they get annoyed at the PVE community or get bored farming stacks of the same items. Both of which, neither address or fix the underlying issues of "good players" to play with.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drennon.7190 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Drennon.7190 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    Not particularly, I think that even during prime time there are some wacky pulls of lower rated players into 1550-1850.

    Sure but there's not a lot that can be done about it when the population is low except making PvP fun and encouraging people to try it out and play it every now and then. ESLs would bring some more hype to PvP.

    Agreed, ESL is never coming back though and is totally unrealistic. You'll have to let go

    If you'd asked me a year ago if we'd ever get a proper rebalance of the game to remove a lot of the powercreep I'd have said no, I wouldn't count out ESLs entirely.

    ESL requires a fan base and viewers. GW2 does not pull viewers. A “successful” event for GW2 is now 1000 to 2000 viewers, which doesn’t even become a blip on the esports radar. It’s a bad investment for ESL and won’t happen.

    Weekly/monthly ESLs for GW2 didn't have a lot of viewers, can't remember the exact numbers but I'm pretty sure it was sub 1,000 and ESL kept it up for years. Not everything has to draw in 40k+ viewers and $100k prize pools to be a success.

    Viewership/population wasn’t enough for them to renew their contract then. Why would they do it now when even less people play or even care about the game?

    They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't. The smaller monthly tournaments for gems played out really well and had as many viewers as pro league (the weekly matches) had towards the end for a fraction of the cost. It's these weekly/monthly ESLs that I'd like to see return, not the big Pro League.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't.

    You're putting your speculation forth like fact. What if they didn't renew for a multitude of other plausible reasons that don't go with your BRING BACK ESL narrative? lol

    Maybe like Pro League Bunker Mesmer season and the subsequent massive dislike bars on all the content? That yeeted GW2 ESL right off a cliff. I agree it had a lot of good moments.

    The smaller monthly tournaments for gems played out really well and had as many viewers as pro league (the weekly matches) had towards the end for a fraction of the cost. It's these weekly/monthly ESLs that I'd like to see return, not the big Pro League.

    However, the Big Pro League had even more good moments. I don't know why your wishlist is so slanted towards ESLsports

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't.

    You're putting your speculation forth like fact. What if they didn't renew for a multitude of other plausible reasons that don't go with your BRING BACK ESL narrative? lol

    Maybe like Pro League Bunker Mesmer season and the subsequent massive dislike bars on all the content? That yeeted GW2 ESL right off a cliff. I agree it had a lot of good moments.

    The smaller monthly tournaments for gems played out really well and had as many viewers as pro league (the weekly matches) had towards the end for a fraction of the cost. It's these weekly/monthly ESLs that I'd like to see return, not the big Pro League.

    However, the Big Pro League had even more good moments. I don't know why your wishlist is so slanted towards ESLsports

    Are you really about to disagree that Pro League didn't pay off for ESL and their advertising? Think very carefully about this Chaith, I know you like to disagree with me but you're getting close to shooting yourself in the foot. Pro League didn't pull in anywhere near the viewership they hoped for to satisfy advertiser spending after the first 2 weeks.

    I would honestly say both had their ups and downs. I won't lie and say I don't remember the awfulness of 5 eles and then the refined version of 4 eles, 1 thief for the stealth mistform rez from weekly ESLs and all the other BS in weeklies but the difference is one cost substantially less to run.

    It's not that ESLs are my wish list, it's that I think it's a better idea than "let's throw more rewards at people at Platinum rank" which solves nothing or "let's give PvP players access to everything via PvP" as all that does is stop players branching out to different content. If you have a better and more well thought out idea I'd be all up for hearing it though.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Are you really about to disagree that Pro League didn't pay off for ESL and their advertising? Think very carefully about this Chaith, I know you like to disagree with me but you're getting close to shooting yourself in the foot.

    LMAO what the heck are you talking about. I was just asking as to how you knew for a fact why they cancelled weekly ESL, and therefore are convinced its possible to bring it back.. no answer on that. My point is not that pro league paid off big time, seriously where are you getting that from? This conversation quality just went down the drain

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Great post.
    I'll play ranked PvP when I can queue an entire team myself. I don't like being punished for the mistakes of others. 2v2 ranked was incredibly fun and rewarding for skilled players, it should always be available. At least I carry 50% of the weight of my team in a 2v2.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    It's not that ESLs are my wish list, it's that I think it's a better idea than "let's throw more rewards at people at Platinum rank" which solves nothing or "let's give PvP players access to everything via PvP" as all that does is stop players branching out to different content. If you have a better and more well thought out idea I'd be all up for hearing it though.

    I disagree and think that throwing any bone to the match quality without causing a whole new slew of problems is something we should do, it can only have a positive impact on match quality, even if it's small in worst case. I personally would grind out a bunch of Black Lion weapon skins for example while on Covid19 leave.

    Any cosmetic incentives to play the game will fix population issues better than sitting here loyal to the delusion that ESL can come back!

    The reason why nobody, including myself, are throwing out more complicated and well thought out suggestions (as if I didn't think about this) is because they all carry the risk of flopping, backfiring hard, wasting huge developer resources, and don't have any more likelihood of succeeding. That's why I only suggested things that didn't have big risks backing it.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Are you really about to disagree that Pro League didn't pay off for ESL and their advertising? Think very carefully about this Chaith, I know you like to disagree with me but you're getting close to shooting yourself in the foot.

    LMAO what the heck are you talking about. I was just asking as to how you knew for a fact why they cancelled weekly ESL, and therefore are convinced its possible to bring it back.. no answer on that. My point is not that pro league paid off big time, seriously where are you getting that from? This conversation quality just went down the drain

    It went down the hill when you accused me of "wild speculation" for stating: "They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't."

    Whatever you think the cause of it not paying off is up to you, I didn't give a cause and either did you but you decided to drag the quality of the conversation downhill.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    It's not that ESLs are my wish list, it's that I think it's a better idea than "let's throw more rewards at people at Platinum rank" which solves nothing or "let's give PvP players access to everything via PvP" as all that does is stop players branching out to different content. If you have a better and more well thought out idea I'd be all up for hearing it though.

    I disagree and think that throwing any bone to the match quality without causing a whole new slew of problems is something we should do, it can only have a positive impact on match quality, even if it's small in worst case. I personally would grind out a bunch of Black Lion weapon skins for example while on Covid19 leave.

    Any cosmetic incentives to play the game will fix population issues better than sitting here loyal to the delusion that ESL can come back!

    The reason why nobody, including myself, are throwing out more complicated and well thought out suggestions (as if I didn't think about this) is because they all carry the risk of flopping, backfiring hard, wasting huge developer resources, and don't have any more likelihood of succeeding. That's why I only suggested things that didn't have big risks backing it.

    Throwing more rewards at something very rarely plays out long term. Adding a revenue stream like BL keys to a repeatable easy to grind out chest falls into the category of ill thought out suggestions. You said it yourself "I personally would grind out a bunch of Black Lion weapon skins for example while on Covid19 leave." but think nothing of it's impact on either gem sales or the gold economy.

    Instead of repeating myself I'll just copy and paste from earlier:
    Your idea misses the point because it's a blanket increase to rewards in platinum rank but the way you worded your problem it's the time period that's the issue not necessarily the rank as you're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

    That's regardless of whether I agree or disagree with your statements.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    It went down the hill when you accused me of "wild speculation" for stating: "They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't."

    Sorry, you may not like it, but it's a fact. You don't know which side(s) wasn't interested in renewing, or are privy to any of the negotiation between ArenaNet and ESL. For instance, why are you ruling out the fact that weekly ESL wasn't renewed because weekly ESL wasn't paying off? Still waiting.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    It went down the hill when you accused me of "wild speculation" for stating: "They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't."

    Sorry, you may not like it, but it's a fact. You don't know which side(s) wasn't interested in renewing, or are privy to any of the negotiation between ArenaNet and ESL. For instance, why are you ruling out the fact that weekly ESL wasn't renewed because weekly ESL wasn't paying off? Still waiting.

    Point me to the part in this sentence where I say who didn't want to renew:

    "They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't." Now Drennon assumed it was ESL that didn't renew, I personally think differently however because that would be "wild speculation" I didn't say who only that it wasn't renewed because Pro League didn't pay off.

    I stated that Pro League didn't pay off, this is a fact, it didn't.

    As for Weekly ESLs they were stopped because Pro League was running, why they weren't started again would be "wild speculation" as I don't know and neither do you but it probably has a lot to do with how much Pro League didn't pay off.

    However we do know that weekly ESLs were run from at least Mid October 2013 till Pro League start some time around November 2015, that's 2 years. You don't do that for 2 years if it's not worth it.

    Edit: One of the early ESL weeklies from October 2013

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    Fun > Prestige > Reward

    Imo for incentive to play a game. Ideally, it would have all 3. GW2 has better combat, so asides from the meta being far more enjoyable for me pre-feb patch when cooldowns were lower and damage was higher, it's more fun than other MMO combat atm. Prestige is low. Rewards are trash. So, I barely play this game and when I do it's usually with friends or if I'm streaming. Otherwise, I really couldn't care less about this game and would rather do other things. 1v1 gamemode would have been great before they nerfed the damage and things actually died. I don't think it would work well in a tank meta.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Fun > Prestige > Reward

    Imo for incentive to play a game

    True. The idea is rewards = more people grind in plat = more match quality = more fun.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Fun > Prestige > Reward

    Imo for incentive to play a game

    True. The idea is rewards = more people grind in plat = more match quality = more fun.

    Which is fine but you have to understand that people have different reasons for playing a game. I like competition and fun fights. You can increase the rewards massively but I care more about the quality of the time I'm spending rather than how many shinies I get out of it. So if the gold per hour was something crazy but I wasn't enjoying ranked conquest, I don't really want to buy anything in particular so it wouldn't make a difference in the amount I que up.

    Hence why I think that having a healthy amount of all 3 would draw people in. Rather than one over the other.

    One of the issues is the constant nerfing making everything feel worse to play. Nerfing cooldowns and damage as much as they did drastically reduced fluidity. skill ceiling and floor, and made many things feel worse to play especially when builds don't die even when outplayed. More competition / guild capes / unique items for ranking = more prestige + better rewards.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Everyone loves match quality, that's universal which is nice

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

    Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with more fanfare than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

    GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

    Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

    Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

    Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with more fanfare than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

    GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

    Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

    Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

    Hahaha yeah I'm aiming a bit lower tbh. My hopes for gw2 are less revolutionary

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    make plat only currency that's used for pvp skins/armor ;)
    didn't know why it's not implemented on pvp amulet

    or plat only store tab

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Fun > Prestige > Reward

    Imo for incentive to play a game

    True. The idea is rewards = more people grind in plat = more match quality = more fun.

    Problem is that if it's not fun, you have an influx of players for the rewards who then leave with a sour taste in their mouth and are reluctant to come back.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Fun > Prestige > Reward

    Imo for incentive to play a game

    True. The idea is rewards = more people grind in plat = more match quality = more fun.

    Problem is that if it's not fun, you have an influx of players for the rewards who then leave with a sour taste in their mouth and are reluctant to come back.

    If you were part of an influx to PvP that went right to plat :tongue:

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

    Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with more fanfare than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

    GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

    Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

    Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

    Hahaha yeah I'm aiming a bit lower tbh. My hopes for gw2 are less revolutionary

    Is it really revolutionary? Persona 4 had 120,000 unit sales on the Playstation 2, it's original and only platform for years and years. Impressive for a game released on a console long past it's life span. But still, the game was long past it's lifespan and even now the fighting game spin off had FOUR TIMES as many views for its YouTube trailer as the entire game sold on its original platform.

    At the end of the day, GW2 withers and dies because the developers LET it wither and die. When the promised Canthan expansion comes out, even if it comes out with amazing cool elite specializations and a PvP meta electric to the touch it will wither and die without publicity. Just like the core game did. Just like HOT did. Just like POF did.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

    Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with more fanfare than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

    GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

    Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

    Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

    Hahaha yeah I'm aiming a bit lower tbh. My hopes for gw2 are less revolutionary

    Is it really revolutionary? Persona 4 had 120,000 unit sales on the Playstation 2, it's original and only platform for years and years. Impressive for a game released on a console long past it's life span. But still, the game was long past it's lifespan and even now the fighting game spin off had FOUR TIMES as many views for its YouTube trailer as the entire game sold on its original platform.

    At the end of the day, GW2 withers and dies because the developers LET it wither and die. When the promised Canthan expansion comes out, even if it comes out with amazing cool elite specializations it will wither and die without publicity. Just like the core game did. Just like HOT did. Just like POF did.

    Yeah. I agree with everything you're saying. I just want gw2 to be more match quality to play for fun in ranked, I am sure the Canthan xpac will be marketed well and get many views, it won't translate into PvP population though

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

    Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with more fanfare than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

    GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

    Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

    Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

    Hahaha yeah I'm aiming a bit lower tbh. My hopes for gw2 are less revolutionary

    Is it really revolutionary? Persona 4 had 120,000 unit sales on the Playstation 2, it's original and only platform for years and years. Impressive for a game released on a console long past it's life span. But still, the game was long past it's lifespan and even now the fighting game spin off had FOUR TIMES as many views for its YouTube trailer as the entire game sold on its original platform.

    At the end of the day, GW2 withers and dies because the developers LET it wither and die. When the promised Canthan expansion comes out, even if it comes out with amazing cool elite specializations it will wither and die without publicity. Just like the core game did. Just like HOT did. Just like POF did.

    Yeah. I agree with everything you're saying. I just want gw2 to be more match quality to play for fun in ranked, I am sure the Canthan xpac will be marketed well and get many views, it won't translate into PvP population though

    It's over for the idea of a general balance or maintenance of the population. There's nowhere to go but down.

    The Canthan expansion will bring people into the game just like the Path of Fire expansion did. But if you don't promote and tout the virtues of it it will never last.

    Path of Fire could have released a trailer or series of trailers for PvP, advertising the game mode as well as beckoning the people who might be interested like Persona 4 Arena's trailer. And frankly balance wise it was in a better shape to try MLG than most by 2018, and certainly compared to it's HoT shape. I could have made some myself for minimal cost and for sure reach more than 100,000 eyeballs. ArenaNet didn't. Because ArenaNet thinks it is risky and dangerous to do so even though someone like me could make a trailer like with as many views for less than a hundred bucks.

    I mean a 2008 PS2 JPRG game with 100,000 units sold manage to pull together a team to advertise their PvP fighting Game Spin off and reach 400,000 views. GW2 can't even do that for it's PvP. And frankly that trailer would cost maybe a couple thousand american dollars if that to produce.

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  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    It's over for the idea of a general balance or maintenance of the population. There's nowhere to go but down.
    The Canthan expansion will bring people into the game just like the Path of Fire expansion did. But if you don't promote and tout the virtues of it it will never last.
    Path of Fire could have released a trailer or series of trailers for PvP, advertising the game mode as well as beckoning the people who might be interested like Persona 4 Arena's trailer. And frankly balance wise it was in a better shape to try MLG than most by 2018, and certainly compared to it's HoT shape. I could have made some myself for minimal cost and for sure reach more than 100,000 eyeballs. ArenaNet didn't. Because ArenaNet thinks it is risky and dangerous to do so even though someone like me could make a trailer like with as many views for less than a hundred bucks.
    I mean a 2008 PS2 JPRG game with 100,000 units sold manage to pull together a team to advertise their PvP fighting Game Spin off and reach 400,000 views. GW2 can't even do that for it's PvP. And frankly that trailer would cost maybe a couple thousand american dollars if that to produce.

    GW2 is defined by its PvP only a small fraction of a game, so I don't expect ArenaNet's marketing will campaign to draw eyes here, to its PvP section. Especially when GW2's overall health, and expansion popularity, it's doing just fine when they advertise new zones, living story, and PvE systems.

    While I agree with your criticism of GW2's PvP marketing effort, they can't just get good and draw a bunch of eyes to GW2 PvP without some new content. There's a content drought since Leagues came out. The expansions don't really expand on PvP outside profession balance. It's just all coming back to the fact that GW2 PvP is only a fraction of a game, and dedicated PvP players here expect the same hype and content as a fully dedicated studio can pump. Just unrealistic.

    PvP here has been on maintenance mode, holding steady with only minor fluctuations for several years now. We're holding at a spot where the population is a bit too low though. Trying to be objective here, it's really been the same for several years, but dedicated players like us want to be supported instead so it feels very unsatisfactory.

    Players have extremely different definitions of 'saving PvP'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not misrepresenting you to say that in your definition of saving PvP, it means an offering like an expansion worth of new specs, or a new main PvP mode other than conquest, and also advertise it very successfully.

    Considering GW2 PvP purposefully isn't the fraction of this game ArenaNet advertises, and the fact that there are not resources or the passion in ArenaNet (IMO) to successfully create a better game mode than conquest, it would absolutely require a complete revolution in ArenaNet to get those things going. Like, everything would have to change internally to get these things.

    In reality, from my perspective, all PvP needs to be 'saved' is a few hundred more knowledgeable people playing per region. Then, with better match quality I would consider GW2 PvP to be good enough at what it is supposed to be: a casual solo/duo queue session, with optional AT's.

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  • What I think about it :
    1.) Gw 2 is a very casual game so many won't aim to become Platinum instead they just try to do their dailies in pvp up to max 3-5 tries. This is the majority of the pvp players in Gw2.
    2.) I believe the numbers have also reduced to the changes to the system with the 2 vs 2 because first it is a lot less casual so players stopped all together to play ranked.
    3.) Certainly there are stuff which players stopped altogether to play pvp any more with the constant nerfs of build and all the other changes.

    This is just human natur

  • setdog.1592setdog.1592 Member ✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    Anet needs to promote pvp. they simply do not promote it. other games are just pvp so all that is required is to promote the game. this game has 3 game modes. pve, wvw and pvp. they promote pve. they dont promote pvp. in game or otherwise. relocate all the features of the mists to lions arch so players get more exposure to pvp. let them browse the rewards from the vendors, which may peak some interest. desegregate the community, its become an exclusive (in a negative way) part of the game. make it more inclusive by giving pvp some promotion in rest of the living world. weve got a raid and fractal portal in LA, but nothing for pvp. you more or less leave the rest of game and move to this exclusive server with other players doing just pvp, called the mists. this reduces overall exposure of the pvp system.

    until the population of pvp grows, youll never get an increase in the higher ranks.

  • Sunt.6835Sunt.6835 Member

    i don't think they will just adjust the thing for 1 server ...
    accept the ping and move to a better server

    east cost people pings aren't even bad around 120 ish

    in EU you can get decent high plat games from like Lunch to 9-10pm.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    Or you could just cull the bloat from GW2 so people aren't drowning in options that are just not viable. You could also make a game that isn't a mismatched mess of free-aim and tab-target combat with effectively zero emphasis on manual movement. The only thing that reward baiting does is drive participation for a hot second before people gather what they want and leave or burn out (see every PvE-focused patch drop and how many "end-game" PvE zones are just utterly dead nowadays). You could also cite how people are still crying about PvP participation despite NOT JUST A MONTH OR SO AGO, PvP was up to its ears in randoms queuing solely for a legendary trinket; not only did people complain about "tourists" during the influx, but the place is super dead again. Rewards don't work if the gameplay isn't good.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    Or you could just cull the bloat from GW2 so people aren't drowning in options that are just not viable. You could also make a game that isn't a mismatched mess of free-aim and tab-target combat with effectively zero emphasis on manual movement. The only thing that reward baiting does is drive participation for a hot second before people gather what they want and leave or burn out (see every PvE-focused patch drop and how many "end-game" PvE zones are just utterly dead nowadays). You could also cite how people are still crying about PvP participation despite NOT JUST A MONTH OR SO AGO, PvP was up to its ears in randoms queuing solely for a legendary trinket; not only did people complain about "tourists" during the influx, but the place is super dead again. Rewards don't work if the gameplay isn't good.

    That could be like 4 different threads. Also I think good gameplay is incredibly subjective. I feel like most who plays GW2 thinks the mechanics of it is good, or is it just for the amazing ranked queue system that keeps people playing? Kappa

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  • ukuni.8745ukuni.8745 Member ✭✭✭

    I think a good place to start in bringing more people to plat would be increasing viable build diversity leading up to the higher levels of game play, if you want more skilled players playing the game mode they first need to get invested into the game mode and giving huge amounts of options that are just as kitten early on as they are in the end game isnt exactly a good way to get people invested and more rewards dosent make people invested it just turns it into another grind just with the added benefit of dealing with the saltiness of pvp