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This game punishes those who do not follow meta builds or just generally playing different...

Holgarf.6581Holgarf.6581 Member ✭✭✭

Try out Wanderer's Guardian with Mace/Focus (and Staff) with Harrier stats. It's not viable anywhere as a healer or with buffs... not in Fractals, not in Dungeons, not in Raids (though expected) not in PVE and... well nowhere else. PVE has no friendly healthbars and there's no incentive to random open world parties so few actively invite others to free-roam, so no healthbars show and thus healing others is harder to gauge and kind of pointless. Why has Guardian Mace and Hammer been so neglected for so long? Is it just yet another case of more ZERG or go home?

Comments

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    It's not about meta, gw2 is not a pure pve mmorpg, wanderer's is PvP/wvw base stats, which make u be a good front line in wvw.

  • Xelara.9132Xelara.9132 Member ✭✭

    If you want team to work with that build then you need the other people to adapt to your build as well as you to theirs. There might be a build out there that works (even in PvE) with your stats but that would require the whole team to work differently than current metas.

  • Xelara.9132Xelara.9132 Member ✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    That is not necessarily the case. I am pretty sure there is many builds out there that are not considered meta and they work just as well. They just need to be thought through thoroughly and just because someone likes to play his class in some way doesn't mean it will help the group achieve what it wants to achieve in the best way.

    Metas are mostly for pugs so that there is not much discussion needed as to how to setup. I bet with well established teams you can run quite different builds than meta that work just as well if not better, but require some skill maybe.
    Poeple just have to think in teams and not just themselves and that requires some understanding of the game-mechanics, other classes and of course personal experience. Metas are there to facilitate that for beginners.

  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    @Holgarf.6581 said:
    Is it just yet another case of more ZERG or go home?

    I get what you're getting at but I can't think of many video games (Or table top RPG these days for that matter. Thanks 3.5!) that don't reward min-maxing for combat over other approaches. "Diplomacy The Game" might be a hit with critics but gamers have used their wallets to vote for "I want a body count on par with Genghis Khan!"

    The best I can say is to use a build that goes with your playstyle and forget about any part of the game that's unwelcoming to you.

    The Commander will end you.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    The problem isn't really about the meta, it's your performance.
    Why play a sophisticated healer without sufficient healing power in the first place?

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Holgarf.6581 said:
    Try out Wanderer's Guardian with Mace/Focus (and Staff) with Harrier stats. It's not viable anywhere as a healer or with buffs... not in Fractals, not in Dungeons, not in Raids (though expected) not in PVE and... well nowhere else. PVE has no friendly healthbars and there's no incentive to random open world parties so few actively invite others to free-roam, so no healthbars show and thus healing others is harder to gauge and kind of pointless. Why has Guardian Mace and Hammer been so neglected for so long? Is it just yet another case of more ZERG or go home?

    Wanderer's or Harriers?
    Which one?

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    @Holgarf.6581 said:
    Try out Wanderer's Guardian with Mace/Focus (and Staff) with Harrier stats. It's not viable anywhere as a healer or with buffs... not in Fractals, not in Dungeons, not in Raids (though expected) not in PVE and... well nowhere else. PVE has no friendly healthbars and there's no incentive to random open world parties so few actively invite others to free-roam, so no healthbars show and thus healing others is harder to gauge and kind of pointless. Why has Guardian Mace and Hammer been so neglected for so long? Is it just yet another case of more ZERG or go home?

    This is not a guardian exclusive issue by any means. Mostly everything is played as dps outside of PvP. Power is berserker and condi is viper or sinister. With 1-2 weapons being optimal with each build. In PvE guardian has one of the highest flexibility. Sword, axe, scepter, GS, torch and focus are all optimal. I think both mace and shield are also optimal for trying to solo things that are not meant to be soloed. In addition some healing and concentration gear can be solid with buffer support builds. Also, guardian is one of the few classes that can do hybrid builds, wither it is condi/power or dps/buffer, dps/heal or heal/buffer. When it comes to PvE diversity, guardian is the best class. And has been for years.

    I strongly agree regarding hammer though. It is one of the worst weapons in the game. Poor damage, poor CC and disjointed. The symbol on AA does not work. Never did and never will.

    A side note, core and virtues line need improvements to add more to the flexibility.

  • Holgarf.6581Holgarf.6581 Member ✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Holgarf.6581 said:
    Try out Wanderer's Guardian with Mace/Focus (and Staff) with Harrier stats. It's not viable anywhere as a healer or with buffs... not in Fractals, not in Dungeons, not in Raids (though expected) not in PVE and... well nowhere else. PVE has no friendly healthbars and there's no incentive to random open world parties so few actively invite others to free-roam, so no healthbars show and thus healing others is harder to gauge and kind of pointless. Why has Guardian Mace and Hammer been so neglected for so long? Is it just yet another case of more ZERG or go home?

    Wanderer's or Harriers?
    Which one?

    Wanderer's Armour and weapons, Harrier trinkets.

    What I'm basically saying guys, is that any sort of build for certain classes that doesn't have Zerk or predominantly attack skills is so weak in PVE that it's borederline unusable. Is that by design? If so, then there is a ton of variables that leave totally unplayable stat combinations. I didn't leave out Power. Power is shared as the dominant stat in a lot of my attire, i.e. in armour, weapons, trinkets, back piece. I wanted to be able to play so I could balance power output with some good retaliation and might uptime (doesn't have to max) and be able to use it in PVE and Fractals. I can, but it's very very underpowered. I also didn't want to waste traitlines so Mace + Staff seemed like a good idea so I could use lines such as Radiance. Even using boosts, with enhanced Signets granting more power, it's completely and utterly unviable. It makes me wonder... is there any sort of incentive or reason (besides strictly roleplaying) to use even two thirds of the stat lineups? We already know that Vitality is nearly useless and toughness generally is. At the moment, Guardian alone, and I've spent years with this remember, is rewarded only by Zerk Zerk Zerk, or maybe Soldier stats with Zerk trinkets and either shouts or consecrations. Shouts share the same traitline, unfortunately, as the vitality and healing boost that is very useful as a guardian, so you end up loosing lots of retaliation and stun breaks. These sorts of classes and skills would be IDEAL in a traditional MMO setting with defined roles, but it fails to work (or works horribly) in a game that doesn't reward roleplaying and even more so when there is zero encouragement to enter into random open-map roaming parties (not squads) for just general playing. My guardian would have been great in a setting like this, but I'm coming across mostly self-sufficient Zerkers where power dominates an enemy before help is even needed (perhaps unless near a Champion). It leaves actual class specific play totally irrelevant outside of Raids.

    I think i'll have to ditch Mace and Focus and throw my ascended armour into the forge. I won't be swapping the trinkets because while they're easy to get, the grind to get them is far too time-consuming.

    My current build here: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PW1Ak2ZlZUwmaad1NuE3ZnWcT1rVA-zRZYBJBzZ0xUDuMquCSPF8dA-e which was meant to focus Power / Healing / Some Boons (retaliation and might) has been limited to sacrificing traits and skills for direct damage boosts or healing myself because damage mitigation doesn't work if you haven't got power to make use of it. If you sacrifice damage and mitigate damage through aegis and healing by the time you've done damage you've already lost a ton of health.

    Anyone suggest some armour only changes in the build above? Maybe Soldier? I might have to drop the mace, it's great with the runes and the trait boost but it is so unbelievably slow.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Holgarf.6581 said:
    Wanderer's Armour and weapons, Harrier trinkets.

    So you are mixing a defensive set with a support set and wondering why you don't feel viable?
    This is part of the root of your problem.
    The way damage (and a few other things) works in GW2 means if you don't go "all in" on your stats, you will notice a real lowering of your effectiveness. I get that you are trying to "balance" your stats and spread them out to offer a variety of bonuses, but essentially what that is doing is making you less than viable at everything.
    Essentially, after looking at your build, I would say you are trying to do "too much".
    You are trying to do damage, mitigate, provide boon support and heal all at once and you are not giving yourself strong options for any of the 4 other than your Concentration stat. And Concentration's value on Retaliation, considering how you use it ideally is up for debate.,

    Is that by design? If so, then there is a ton of variables that leave totally unplayable stat combinations. I didn't leave out Power. Power is shared as the dominant stat in a lot of my attire, i.e. in armour, weapons, trinkets, back piece.

    The Power stat by itself isn't what does damage. Power plus Crit Chance (Presicion) and Crit Damage (Ferocity) is what brings power damage to the forefront.
    By choosing a mix of Wanderer's and Harrier's you have left your character without any Prec or Ferocity and consequently left yourself without a decent amount of power damage.

    I also didn't want to waste traitlines so Mace + Staff seemed like a good idea so I could use lines such as Radiance.

    And here you are using two support weapons. Mace is a support/healing weapon and staff is a healing and utility weapon. Neither of these weapons will do a decent amount of damage when compared to other options such as scepter, sword or greatsword....they are not meant to.

    Even using boosts, with enhanced Signets granting more power, it's completely and utterly unviable. It makes me wonder... is there any sort of incentive or reason (besides strictly roleplaying) to use even two thirds of the stat lineups?

    If we throw away the concept of "meta" there are indeed a large number of stat combinations that are viable. Some are meme/useless combinations though and many people would consider Wanderer's one of the less desirable combinations.
    But throwing together a build that is half Healing/Support and half Mitigation/sustain and offering yourself zero crit chance bump is not going to lead to a fun experience if you are trying to actually kill anything.

    We already know that Vitality is nearly useless and toughness generally is.

    Incorrect on both counts. A Marauder's set will offer tremendous quality of life without sacrificing a ton of damage mainly due to it's high Precision. A Trailblazer's set will offer damage within 10-15% of full Viper's and make the player feel virtually unkillable by normal mobs in PvE.
    Weaver and Scourge benefit greatly from Vitality.

    Anyone suggest some armour only changes in the build above? Maybe Soldier? I might have to drop the mace, it's great with the runes and the trait boost but it is so unbelievably slow.

    Before anyone can give you a relevant answer to this question as yourself:
    What do I want this toon to do?
    Right now your build and gear can roughly be described as a hodge-podge that don't effectively bring anything to the table but some might generation. Signet of Courage offers very little to your team and is a highly interruptible channel. While with all your Concentration, Feel My Wrath would be an instant cast and huge value. Rellacing this one utility would negate the value of Perfect Inscriptions and allow you to at the very least up your damage with Amplified Wrath.

    But really try and consider the basics. Pick one or two things you want your toon to do well and start to build around that. Right now you have built a character in a highly reactive manner to your perceived threats that really barely does anything you want.
    This isn't a question of the game "Punishing" those who don't run a meta build.
    It's the consequence of poor build without any real strengths or synergies.

    And no... outside of WvW Soldier's gear is never the answer.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Edge.8724Edge.8724 Member ✭✭✭

    It's no secret that most people will expect you to play a very specific build in group content (fractals, unless you are with friends that don't mind). Also, It's sure that low damage build tend to not go well in this game.
    What is your goal with your guardian? Heal? Supporting your allies? Are you mostly playing this in open world pve?

    I can suggest a build I love to play in open world, although I never tried it with other people (I get too much insults If I'm not "meta" most of the time).

    This is NOT meta by any mean.

    This build; http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAw6llZwoYIMN2JWMP1pMA-zxYYvw6RHMC+MaUFEzEwiDA-e.

    This is a bit like a "paladin" roleplay build, very classic. The goal of this build was to do 3 things at once, deal enough damage to kill, sustain yourself and heal/support your allies. With this build, however, ennemies will mostly want to attack you. (Toughness = aggro magnet). This can be good or not depending on what you want to do. If you want to relieve pressure from someone, it's good. If you are in danger, this is not good, but you shouldn't die easily especially if you know how to use the build.

    Once your initial aegis is gone, priorise F3 before any other source of aegis.

    Each block will heal you for almost 2k hp. (Around 1 880 I think)

    Use the sword of justice for vulnerability and for soft cc.

    Signet of Judgement for passive tankiness and low cooldown stunbreak.

    Your healing skill will fully heal you and heal your allies for a large amount. Same goes for your elite skill.

    Sword for offense and mace for defense.

    The only skill you are allowed to spam here is F1. Use the other skills carefully.

    I don't have problem playing the famous glass build, but I really love and prefer this build and I play it whenever I can. Give it a try and maybe you'll like it or not.

    Main things to consider when building:

    -Learn every bit of your desired class, what it can and can't do.

    -See what you can do with weapons you like.

    -Note what is your purpose.

    -pick traits, stats and skills that synergise all well with your overall build.

    This is mostly it. I'm not a pro by any mean, but I do love my guardian and I'm sharing some fun things with it.

  • Xelara.9132Xelara.9132 Member ✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    Here you go before you throw your armour into the forge:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stat_changing

    Despite mixing too many stats, your build seems in generally mostly trying to play a supportive role. Maybe you could look into Heal-Firebrand builds and see if it suits you. Your trinkets would work well with that, too.
    Then for damage you can make a second set and change them however needed. Most people have several sets anyways... .

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @Holgarf.6581 said:
    Try out Wanderer's Guardian with Mace/Focus (and Staff) with Harrier stats. It's not viable anywhere as a healer or with buffs... not in Fractals, not in Dungeons, not in Raids (though expected) not in PVE and... well nowhere else. PVE has no friendly healthbars and there's no incentive to random open world parties so few actively invite others to free-roam, so no healthbars show and thus healing others is harder to gauge and kind of pointless. Why has Guardian Mace and Hammer been so neglected for so long? Is it just yet another case of more ZERG or go home?

    This isn't a problem ... if you don't think it's 'viable' don't use it. If you feel 'punished' for your choices ... then you need to choose who you team with better.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    PvE has lots of avoidable damage so you just kill things real fast and use blocks/invuls/dodges to stay alive. That's why non"meta" builds will feel trash.

  • Holgarf.6581Holgarf.6581 Member ✭✭✭

    I get your points, I do. I did think I was doing too many things at once. Lol, as it currently stands I can't even kill a icy tuna before it jumps in water xD. The reason I'm running Mace is because Maces are cool and I'm tired of the GS / Sword / Scepter boringness but this main build was mostly supposed to be used in fractals so I guess that's why it sucks transitioning to PVE.

    I'm tired of stat-changing. Any wrong build requires tons of effort to change. Yes I can throw the armour in the forge but stat changing for trinkets is a pain. I think I'll just leave this build for Fractals, maybe change the armour to something else but leave the trinkets. If I had to leave the trinkets and weapons the same, would would good choice for fractals? I just wanted a healy boony type of Guardian for fractals but consecrations seems like a no-go.

  • Holgarf.6581Holgarf.6581 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 28, 2020

    I made some changes but I'm keeping the runes and not changing the weapon stats or trinkets.

    I've made some reforms; Marauder's armour, same Monk runes, same trinkets and weapons. I've changed some traits and skills around am now using Scepter instead. Less HP, less Conctration but I hit harder and do more crits (previously I had 5% crit chance). This seems a bit better for mixing PVE and Fractals compared to the previous build. Without a sword a different runes however I'll still hit like a wet fish but this is better somewhat. Oh that reminds me! I best go test the Scepter on Icy Tuna!

  • Ryou.2398Ryou.2398 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Holgarf.6581 said:
    Try out Wanderer's Guardian with Mace/Focus (and Staff) with Harrier stats. It's not viable anywhere as a healer or with buffs... not in Fractals, not in Dungeons, not in Raids (though expected) not in PVE and... well nowhere else. PVE has no friendly healthbars and there's no incentive to random open world parties so few actively invite others to free-roam, so no healthbars show and thus healing others is harder to gauge and kind of pointless. Why has Guardian Mace and Hammer been so neglected for so long? Is it just yet another case of more ZERG or go home?

    This isn't a problem ... if you don't think it's 'viable' don't use it. If you feel 'punished' for your choices ... then you need to choose who you team with better.

    Damage control response here when there is clear flaws with the meta.

    If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy frequency and vibration Nikola Tesla.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2020

    @Ryou.2398 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Holgarf.6581 said:
    Try out Wanderer's Guardian with Mace/Focus (and Staff) with Harrier stats. It's not viable anywhere as a healer or with buffs... not in Fractals, not in Dungeons, not in Raids (though expected) not in PVE and... well nowhere else. PVE has no friendly healthbars and there's no incentive to random open world parties so few actively invite others to free-roam, so no healthbars show and thus healing others is harder to gauge and kind of pointless. Why has Guardian Mace and Hammer been so neglected for so long? Is it just yet another case of more ZERG or go home?

    This isn't a problem ... if you don't think it's 'viable' don't use it. If you feel 'punished' for your choices ... then you need to choose who you team with better.

    Damage control response here when there is clear flaws with the meta.

    What flaw would that be? Seems to me your response shows you don't even understand what the meta is.

    I mean, it's interesting you are digging up old posts of mine to joust with me ... trust me, I'm game for it, but it's going to be a waste of your time if you don't explain yourself better. Maybe you're being vague on purpose. That's fine too. It doesn't make what I said any less relevant or true.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/