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Why play any other support but Scrapper?

aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

Playing Scrapper has ruined other healers for me.
Finally leveled an engineer and decided to try scrapper, the learning curve was very easy compared to Firebrand or druid, I tested it all day long in wvw and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.
Gargantuan amounts of healing, gargantuan amount of cleansing, gargantuan amount of utility... I just dont see the point of playing my other healers now, maybe except Firebrand but even then Scrapper is easier to play.
For a class that is supposed to be "jack of all trades", medikit scrapper is more like "master of all trades".

I am not calling for a nerf to scrapper, if anything, please buff Ventari Revs and Druids so they can provide more to the fight.

<1

Comments

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

    Try this.

    Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

    With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Playing Scrapper has ruined other healers for me.
    Finally leveled an engineer and decided to try scrapper, the learning curve was very easy compared to Firebrand or druid, I tested it all day long in wvw and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.
    Gargantuan amounts of healing, gargantuan amount of cleansing, gargantuan amount of utility... I just dont see the point of playing my other healers now, maybe except Firebrand but even then Scrapper is easier to play.
    For a class that is supposed to be "jack of all trades", medikit scrapper is more like "master of all trades".

    I am not calling for a nerf to scrapper, if anything, please buff Ventari Revs and Druids so they can provide more to the fight.

    Well you're comparing one of the best supports in WvW to the worst, druid. Druid has decent burst heals but is gated by celestial avatar, needs to be aimed, has no access to reliable stability (the elite is on too long a cooldown), and outputs no boons (the might stacking is severely nerfed in WvW as well). Also it's weapons have bad cleave with bad utility (immob has a long cast time with thin radius and needs investment into expertise to immob for a second, the water field being okay).

    I agree, scrapper doesn't need nerfing, but instead druid needs to be fixed. Many many threads have been posted on this but for some reason druid keeps getting nerfed every patch. It needs a rework

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭

    Scrapper (and engi in general) has hardly any shared stability, like others mentioned. On top of that your boon output is dependent on condition application of your enemy. If you had only scrappers you'd run into battle butt-naked in terms of boons, except some potential swiftness , regen and 3 stacks of stability.

    [NUKE]

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Druid is never used in blobbing wvw, firebrand has a different role, tempest fills cleansing role, so you pretty much compare apples to oranges

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

    Try this.

    Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

    With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

    this is not ventari. Also we would have to let one of the other 2 legends fall for it.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Playing Scrapper has ruined other healers for me.
    Finally leveled an engineer and decided to try scrapper, the learning curve was very easy compared to Firebrand or druid, I tested it all day long in wvw and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.
    Gargantuan amounts of healing, gargantuan amount of cleansing, gargantuan amount of utility... I just dont see the point of playing my other healers now, maybe except Firebrand but even then Scrapper is easier to play.
    For a class that is supposed to be "jack of all trades", medikit scrapper is more like "master of all trades".

    I am not calling for a nerf to scrapper, if anything, please buff Ventari Revs and Druids so they can provide more to the fight.

    So much exaggeration and assumption :) It is quite clear that you calling for a nerf to Scrapper but doing it very discreetly and indirectly. You know ANet never buff skills for all these years but only nerf them. Even when they said they are doing a balancing or making some changes, in the end it always tally to a "net " nerf. Always. I believe you never play FB or Tempest that's why you assumed that Scrapper has the " gargantuan " amount of every thing. Each support class has the gargantuan amount of one or two things, but never all. Please try playing actively a few months of support FB or pure healer Tempest so that you will know who has the gargantuan amount of whatever.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Let's see...
    Stability (firebrands)
    heal range / ranged CC (staff tempest)
    boon rip / range pressure (cele scourge)
    boon rip / CC (shout spellbreaker)

    Scrapper is strong in a group because med kit scales with boons

    You omitted dagger/x tempest which will out cleanse a scrapper while putting out respectable AoE damage and CC on a melee push.

    And that's kind of the point. Scrapper has a place, but it isn't a jack of all trades as the OP suggests, it has strengths and weaknesses like everyone else.

    Staff Tempest has crazy good heal throughput and solid ranged CC, but they fall behind the level of the defensive and offensive boons a Dagger/x Tempest can give, never mind what can be done on a Firebrand.

    Offensively a Scrapper is rather mediocre compared to the damage output of a Firebrand with burning, reflects and retaliation, or a Tempest with overloads, auras and shouts.

    If you broke down what support builds bring to a group (boons, condition cleanse, CC, damage, utility, etc) you won't find a single build that is best at all of them.

  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mil.3562 said:

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Playing Scrapper has ruined other healers for me.
    Finally leveled an engineer and decided to try scrapper, the learning curve was very easy compared to Firebrand or druid, I tested it all day long in wvw and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.
    Gargantuan amounts of healing, gargantuan amount of cleansing, gargantuan amount of utility... I just dont see the point of playing my other healers now, maybe except Firebrand but even then Scrapper is easier to play.
    For a class that is supposed to be "jack of all trades", medikit scrapper is more like "master of all trades".

    I am not calling for a nerf to scrapper, if anything, please buff Ventari Revs and Druids so they can provide more to the fight.

    So much exaggeration and assumption :) It is quite clear that you calling for a nerf to Scrapper but doing it very discreetly and indirectly. You know ANet never buff skills for all these years but only nerf them. Even when they said they are doing a balancing or making some changes, in the end it always tally to a "net " nerf. Always. I believe you never play FB or Tempest that's why you assumed that Scrapper has the " gargantuan " amount of every thing. Each support class has the gargantuan amount of one or two things, but never all. Please try playing actively a few months of support FB or pure healer Tempest so that you will know who has the gargantuan amount of whatever.

    I dont want Scrapper nerfs, I want Druid and Ventari revs to be buffed in wvw.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Let's see...
    Stability (firebrands)
    heal range / ranged CC (staff tempest)
    boon rip / range pressure (cele scourge)
    boon rip / CC (shout spellbreaker)

    Scrapper is strong in a group because med kit scales with boons

    Scraper is strong because of its looping effects with boons on clears and condi conversion. As long as you have that the out put of healing from scraper will allways be stronger then any thing else in the game. As for its boon support due to the pool of boons it can give from conversion having the "stronger" or class defining boons your always going to have a broken support effect.

    I would say there 2 support FB and scraper. CC tempest often becomes more of an means of giving the other team resistances. Boon rip is more from your "support" classes who are filling a dps roll.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Fricken.3819Fricken.3819 Member ✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    Just make my Ventari Rev. work like Scourge shades and make my day. give it a 6 skill make f skill place tome and utility skills work around you 360 range without placement plz and thank you.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    Scrapper has pretty meh healing when compared to Firebrand or Tempest. It's strength comes from its ability to cleanse (or rather convert) conditions - via anti-toxin runes/purity of purpose or alturism runes/mortar kit, and easy on demand stealth.

    Note - during SMC 3 way fights scrapper healing is good when only auto attacks activate and you can pssshhhh psshhhh psshhhh.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    Don’t believe much of what you see here. Scrapper is right now, the best cleanser and now a way better healer in comparison to Tempest. The nerfs to Tempest deleted it from viability.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    @Lahmia.2193 said:
    Scrapper has pretty meh healing when compared to Firebrand or Tempest. It's strength comes from its ability to cleanse (or rather convert) conditions - via anti-toxin runes/purity of purpose or alturism runes/mortar kit, and easy on demand stealth.

    Note - during SMC 3 way fights scrapper healing is good when only auto attacks activate and you can pssshhhh psshhhh psshhhh.

    Med blaster pulses three times and scales with boons ; the 600 range is quite generous. Even without crazy boon scaling it's roughly 500 health a second on up to 5 people at 1500 heal power. As such it is a great build for newer players that doesn't rely on comboing or timing so much , provided scout designation is given to make up for the lack of tagging enemies while camping med kit.
    It heals more than firebrand while moving and if the tempest isn't camping water on staff with full heal spec (1500+ heal power). In addition, firebrand mace needs the entire auto chain to connect for ~1.1K heal in 180 radius otherwise you're looking at mainly ~1K heals via Pure of Heart from aegis (12s cooldown on mace 3 Protector's Strike traited which has 240 radius, 20s cooldown on shield 4 Shield of Judgment , 9 to 12 seconds on Mantra of Solace with 180 radius / 450 range), Battle Presence sharing Absolute Resolution specced Virtue of Honor (<220 per second on up to 5 people) , and Selfless daring dodges (~100 health a second since it heals roughly 1K on up to 5 people).

    Due to the power damage nerfs , aegis loses some of its value because the damage negated is less. So it wouldn't call it meh healing when the heal is quite competitive with firebrand mace auto, virtue sharing, and dodges combined. If Pure of Heart doesn't proc due to boon rip/strip/corrupt then the value is lost there since it only works on block. It gets better the more boons you have, so synergy with classes such as heralds or firebrands is a plus.


    Ventari rev and druid have their own issues. Namely for druid , astral force generation (ability to remain in Celestial Avatar since staff is weak) and the pet not being permanently stowable. Ventari has no stunbreak and needs to micromanage the tablet as well as energy.

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    The main features of zerg support classes:
    Scrapper - sustained healing, cleansing, superspeed
    Firebrand - boons (especially aegis/stab), side/passive healing, stunbreaks&tomes
    Tempest - sustained and large group healing, cleansing, auras

    In pirate ship pugs, healing/cleansing is usually more important. If you want to push anything, or survive getting pushed, FB is essential.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

    Try this.

    Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

    With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

    this is not ventari. Also we would have to let one of the other 2 legends fall for it.

    Well you already got the fb and scrapper as healers. Why you need more? 2 healers is a five man party is basic. 1 healer is for pirateship zergs. And having 3 healers will make you tanky but will have hard time killing stuff.

    Of course you can alter everyone else's builds so you can choose the healers you want and they can focus on that stuff.

    Example

    Fb warrior healer. The other 3 ae damage noon rip

    Fb scrapper healer. The other 3 damage boon rip

    Fb rev healer. The other 3 damage boon rip.

    You can get rid of fb because of stab. And ranger stab while having more stacks , the other utilities is less useful.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    Intensive healing on Engi is potentially the strongest in the game by far, but is dependant on allies having full boons.

    Bringing the boons yourself is difficult, as it requires Purity of Purpose and some other traits, which make sacrifices like HGH for example which translates to less heals from Elixer Gun & Mortar Kit and less frequent revives from Elixer R. Similarity, it works best with Anticorrosion Plating which sacrifices Medical Dispersion Field which is like, half of the Engi's healing output, etc.

    Thus at some point you'll need a Firebrand or even a Herald with you to heal effectively.

    This delima is the very reason that alot of Engis chose to play as cleansers (and stealth frontliners as Scrapper) instead of trying to heal, because while the Engi healing is incredible, the cleansing builds are more efficient and effective.

    But any buffer + Engi (don't even need Scrapper here) will always be the strongest combination for support.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW) | ♀♥♀

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Let's see...
    Stability (firebrands)
    heal range / ranged CC (staff tempest)
    boon rip / range pressure (cele scourge)
    boon rip / CC (shout spellbreaker)

    Scrapper is strong in a group because med kit scales with boons

    You omitted dagger/x tempest which will out cleanse a scrapper while putting out respectable AoE damage and CC on a melee push.

    And that's kind of the point. Scrapper has a place, but it isn't a jack of all trades as the OP suggests, it has strengths and weaknesses like everyone else.

    Staff Tempest has crazy good heal throughput and solid ranged CC, but they fall behind the level of the defensive and offensive boons a Dagger/x Tempest can give, never mind what can be done on a Firebrand.

    Offensively a Scrapper is rather mediocre compared to the damage output of a Firebrand with burning, reflects and retaliation, or a Tempest with overloads, auras and shouts.

    If you broke down what support builds bring to a group (boons, condition cleanse, CC, damage, utility, etc) you won't find a single build that is best at all of them.

    As someone who's currently playing heal tempest (since my druid is broke :( ) and have played support scrapper as well.. I can say that while tempest can cleanse more with soldier runes, the scrappers ability to convert conditions to boons is far more valuable. It also doesn't get ping longed around as much as tempest - the reflects are about on par with each other; tempest has more access to reflects but the duration is far shorter, heal wise tempest wins there. Scrapper has better damage and group stealth.. also the superspeed is amazing. Tempest has better CC.

    I find the scrapper easier to play and more valuable to a group in general. The thing that really irks me with engineer as a whole is the kits are very outdated in my opinion (I know the engineer forum feels differently) and I like to customize and change things up every so often. Ele has options and diversity, scrapper is a bit more limited

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

    Try this.

    Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

    With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

    this is not ventari. Also we would have to let one of the other 2 legends fall for it.

    Well you already got the fb and scrapper as healers. Why you need more? 2 healers is a five man party is basic. 1 healer is for pirateship zergs. And having 3 healers will make you tanky but will have hard time killing stuff.

    Of course you can alter everyone else's builds so you can choose the healers you want and they can focus on that stuff.

    Example

    Fb warrior healer. The other 3 ae damage noon rip

    Fb scrapper healer. The other 3 damage boon rip

    Fb rev healer. The other 3 damage boon rip.

    You can get rid of fb because of stab. And ranger stab while having more stacks , the other utilities is less useful.

    its not having "more healers" ,its about having a bigger choice to play

    even if people dont have all classes and maybe even prefer to only play one main character (like me) ,they could play healer.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

    Try this.

    Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

    With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

    this is not ventari. Also we would have to let one of the other 2 legends fall for it.

    Well you already got the fb and scrapper as healers. Why you need more? 2 healers is a five man party is basic. 1 healer is for pirateship zergs. And having 3 healers will make you tanky but will have hard time killing stuff.

    Of course you can alter everyone else's builds so you can choose the healers you want and they can focus on that stuff.

    Example

    Fb warrior healer. The other 3 ae damage noon rip

    Fb scrapper healer. The other 3 damage boon rip

    Fb rev healer. The other 3 damage boon rip.

    You can get rid of fb because of stab. And ranger stab while having more stacks , the other utilities is less useful.

    its not having "more healers" ,its about having a bigger choice to play

    even if people dont have all classes and maybe even prefer to only play one main character (like me) ,they could play healer.

    Aye. It's unfortunate that the optimal group will always have an fb rev

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • well, good thing tempest can cleanse ten people at once. So you dont need one in every party.
    FB healing... dunno. I see more heals from every other class. With cleanses the gap between tempest, scrapper and fb is HUGE.
    The only thing fb is good for is stab and aegis.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    Fb is good for that 8 water fields too blast it especially team quickness

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    well, good thing tempest can cleanse ten people at once. So you dont need one in every party.
    FB healing... dunno. I see more heals from every other class. With cleanses the gap between tempest, scrapper and fb is HUGE.
    The only thing fb is good for is stab and aegis.

    Then why do everone call for fbs? Its all commanders want. They dont care about the rest. They dont even care about skill. You can bring an fb in level 20 blue gear and commanders will be like thank god we have another fb.

    Is this kind of like the same situation where thieves are the worst roamers and kitten at 1v1? I mean why do people even play that kitten.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Handin.4032Handin.4032 Member ✭✭

    I've been playing engi in WvW since the game started and I've loved the roles that Scrapper now plays (and the now seeming rebirth of kit and core engi!). As others have mentioned, Scrapper has some key weak points - name that it does not have a lot of shared stability, and if you're set up for the optimal support build you yourself have a lot less access to stability! It is quite easy to lock down a support Scrapper if they're caught too far from the stack!

    Scrapper itself is one of those classes thats thrives and does remarkably well at it's job when the other team is playing specific builds or doing something else wrong. For instance, playing a scrapper against a pug raid with burn guardians is great - it means Aegis spam for yourself and your group! The last time I ran arcDPS in WvW as a support scrapper (which was some time ago) the largest contribution to healing didn't come from the heal kit spam but from regen spam and medical dispersion field. Furthermore, the heal kit spam works BEST only when partied with other boon-generators.

    I think support Scrapper is honestly in a great situation. It thrives when combo'ed with other roles, doesn't outshine them solo and has some clear disadvantages for countering. Many scrappers I've seen in raids often came from other professions and haven't yet figured out all the field combinations the scrapper can self-generate, so it's a profession/role that can be picked up and improved upon over time without pain (particularly with light fields - but you can do a lot with Mortar fields if you're feel frisky and don't need the stealth).

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    It's non-quantifiable, but you can give a rather nice estimate as to how much damage you can hope to negate with Aegis procs by looking at combat logs.

    Take some arbitrary time frame from an engagement and have a look at your combat log, and just look over the individual packets of damage. Count them up, and find the average. So if you were taking 10k damage here, 1k damage there, 3k damage here, 400 damage there...you add those packets and divide by the number and find an average amount.

    This is basically the same as just looking at incoming damage in ARCDPS. Take that number, divide by the time of the engagement and you find the average DPS you were taking in a fight. That number is basically on average the amount of damage you will block with an aegis at any given moment. So if i on average take 2k damage per second, than an aegis proc i put out would on average, preventativly heal for 2k(x5 targets) for a 10k heal. It's not a huge number, but it's not negligible either since is a boon that can be applied with no ICD. So the potential is very very big for things like Aegis and Protection, and % damage reduction modifiers that make them important.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    Yes one Aegis only block once. But if timed correctly, a FB can spam up to 6 Aegis (depending on the utility skills and weapons you use) and that's 6 consecutive blocks for you. Block is not heal, blocking is better than healing or cleansing. This is why FB is a must in the commander's squad or if possible, in every squad. Not Scrapper.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @Mil.3562 said:
    Yes one Aegis only block once. But if timed correctly, a FB can spam up to 6 Aegis (depending on the utility skills and weapons you use) and that's 6 consecutive blocks for you. Block is not heal, blocking is better than healing or cleansing. This is why FB is a must in the commander's squad or if possible, in every squad. Not Scrapper.

    ehh, no. Block is not better than healing. Block is healing, in the form of preventative healing.

    The reason everyone wants an FB in the party is because of stability. Everything else is just a function of their build. Aegis is applied more fruitfully by Scrappers because of Purity of Purpose converting Burns anyway.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

    Imagine if aegis stacked....fml.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

    Imagine if aegis stacked....fml.

    D:

    Please no, we don't need more reasons to bring guardian to WvW...

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

    Imagine if aegis stacked....fml.

    D:

    Please no, we don't need more reasons to bring guardian to WvW...

    Yes but you could stack up a massive....SHATTER AEGIS BOMB!

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Playing Scrapper has ruined other healers for me.
    Finally leveled an engineer and decided to try scrapper, the learning curve was very easy compared to Firebrand or druid, I tested it all day long in wvw and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.
    Gargantuan amounts of healing, gargantuan amount of cleansing, gargantuan amount of utility... I just dont see the point of playing my other healers now, maybe except Firebrand but even then Scrapper is easier to play.
    For a class that is supposed to be "jack of all trades", medikit scrapper is more like "master of all trades".

    I am not calling for a nerf to scrapper, if anything, please buff Ventari Revs and Druids so they can provide more to the fight.

    Lets not bring even more stupid healing and support to the wvw blobs, it is already boring as it is now.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

    Imagine if aegis stacked....fml.

    D:

    Please no, we don't need more reasons to bring guardian to WvW...

    Yes but you could stack up a massive....SHATTER AEGIS BOMB!

    D:

    But that just means...more SCOURGES!!!

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

    you didn't imagine all the times you got actual damage numbers, but yeah go ahead and cherry pick I already knew people would.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

    Imagine if aegis stacked....fml.

    D:

    Please no, we don't need more reasons to bring guardian to WvW...

    Yes but you could stack up a massive....SHATTER AEGIS BOMB!

    D:

    But that just means...more SCOURGES!!!

    If a scourge strips 25 stacks of aegis that would still be a HUGE shattered aegis!

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    Yes one Aegis only block once. But if timed correctly, a FB can spam up to 6 Aegis (depending on the utility skills and weapons you use) and that's 6 consecutive blocks for you. Block is not heal, blocking is better than healing or cleansing. This is why FB is a must in the commander's squad or if possible, in every squad. Not Scrapper.

    ehh, no. Block is not better than healing. Block is healing, in the form of preventative healing.

    The reason everyone wants an FB in the party is because of stability. Everything else is just a function of their build. Aegis is applied more fruitfully by Scrappers because of Purity of Purpose converting Burns anyway.

    When you block an attack, those incoming heals and cleanses will spill out of your squad and give to those who is next in line and need them. It is better than healing. I did not bring in Stability just for the purpose of focusing on Aegis. I did mentioned in a few threads before that FB's main role in a zerg is to give Aegis and Stability, among other boons. Don't forget FB has two skills that convert condis to boons too. And Purity of Purpose only good with condi attacks, Aegis blocks attacks of any kind.

  • till, fb sucks at cleansing compared to scrapper or tempest - so why do people bring it up all the time?

    An dto be honest, a party in a squad without a fb but with a scrapper or tempest can survive just fine. But a party with only a fb is always in trouble. Just an observation.

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Let's see...
    Stability (firebrands)
    heal range / ranged CC (staff tempest)
    boon rip / range pressure (cele scourge)
    boon rip / CC (shout spellbreaker)

    Scrapper is strong in a group because med kit scales with boons

    But Dolyak Stance is the best stability ability in the game :'(

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    till, fb sucks at cleansing compared to scrapper or tempest - so why do people bring it up all the time?

    An dto be honest, a party in a squad without a fb but with a scrapper or tempest can survive just fine. But a party with only a fb is always in trouble. Just an observation.

    Well both is ideal and you want more than 1 support per 5 player subgroup anyway but stability is so important. The foundation of blobfighting is everyone in squad having complete and unconditional freedom of movement so everyone can move as one and everyone can stay in boon support/cleanse range of each other.

    If you don't have enough stability it just becomes a mess where people get knocked around and stunned. People get separated, fall behind and cant be helped, thus becoming rally bots. You can get separated when moving at different speeds, which is the case if some of your teammates get crippled or chilled but those can be cleansed as long as you are in range of your supports.

    I've played tempest in squads that desperately lacked stability and its so easy to get hard CCed to the point of being useless. When your group wide stability uptime isn't being tested then sure, you can run wild with second supports.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    Well you only. Need 5 shout breakers in a group of 50 and 10 revs 5 of which is alacrity and the other herald. 10 firebrands. 10 scrappers. And 15 scourges. <3 hehe

    Or you can have a pirate ship team of

    1fb .5 herald .5 alacrity rev 1 Weaver 2 scourge.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    Love these discussions. It shows which players actually understand the meta and classes, and which clearly don't.

    Every time people ask about why Firebrand is required/demanded/desired as first support option, while talking about healing and/or cleansing, you know that person is clueless. Firebrand is taken for stability. Always has been. The fact it provides optional mediocre support in all other areas is just icing.

    Currently, 3 main supports are in the EU meta:

    • Firebrand, as backbone of each composition with a swiss knife availability of support and as main stability machine.
    • Heal Scrapper as primary cleanse/convert and heal support with again some utility skills (Sneak Gyro for mass stealth, Hammer 5 for ranged aoe stun, etc.)
    • Auramancer as primary cleanser, long range crowd control in form of immobs, and aura giver. Auras are immune to dispel effects. Depending on how the Auramancer is played, he can rival Heal Scrapper cleanses. It's once again the unique, non existent on the other supports, class abilities which secure the tempest role here.

    All of these backed up by power Heralds with Dwarf for even more stability and Boons while running as ranged dps, and maybe support Spellbreakers for strong burst area cleanse and WoD.

    If you are looking at only individual aspects like healing and cleansing while discussing class viability or usefulness, you are clearly not in any type of organized WvW guild which actually puts any thought into its roster.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

    you didn't imagine all the times you got actual damage numbers, but yeah go ahead and cherry pick I already knew people would.

    Cherry picked? I gave you a real example of when Aegis blocks a strong attack and your response is to just dismiss it. If you really think Aegis is useless, then I feel sorry for you because it isn't.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

    Imagine if aegis stacked....fml.

    D:

    Please no, we don't need more reasons to bring guardian to WvW...

    Yes but you could stack up a massive....SHATTER AEGIS BOMB!

    D:

    But that just means...more SCOURGES!!!

    If a scourge strips 25 stacks of aegis that would still be a HUGE shattered aegis!

    D:

    Does Shattered Aegis proc on stripped Aegis?

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Love these discussions. It shows which players actually understand the meta and classes, and which clearly don't.

    Yea me too, I don’t even want to put in the energy to respond to half of the ill informed posts there are way too many.

    • Auramancer as primary cleanser, long range crowd control in form of immobs, and aura giver. Auras are immune to dispel effects. Depending on how the Auramancer is played, he can rival Heal Scrapper cleanses. It's once again the unique, non existent on the other supports, class abilities which secure the tempest role here.

    Honestly, post patch I don’t see why auramancer right now is meta at all. I think it’s because people don’t know or ever understood why Tempest was so strong before, and that everything that made them a good choice (back when it wasn’t meta) was stripped from them post patch and yet all of a sudden it’s meta?(and they still refuse to put it in the meta section on metabattle) Made no sense to me how that happened but i think it’s because people have no idea...have never analyzed Zerg/Gvg fighting at a meaningful level.

    Same thing with Ministrel Spellbreaker. This build right now is considered meta on metabattle and all of of its traits and stats are designed around support, but it probably does as much cleansing as a firebrand in practice. The only reason for warrior is Bubble...but there’s no reason to go Ministrel when you can still go damage spell breaker and do actual useful things.

    I think we have gone way passed dead game where people are just slapping builds together on metabattle and call it meta and everyone and their mother is now an expert on gvg or zvz. Even though there is next to nobody doing real GvG anymore. It’s crazy seeing this happen in real time.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Love these discussions. It shows which players actually understand the meta and classes, and which clearly don't.

    Yea me too, I don’t even want to put in the energy to respond to half of the ill informed posts there are way too many.

    • Auramancer as primary cleanser, long range crowd control in form of immobs, and aura giver. Auras are immune to dispel effects. Depending on how the Auramancer is played, he can rival Heal Scrapper cleanses. It's once again the unique, non existent on the other supports, class abilities which secure the tempest role here.

    Honestly, post patch I don’t see why auramancer right now is meta at all. I think it’s because people don’t know or ever understood why Tempest was so strong before, and that everything that made them a good choice (back when it wasn’t meta) was stripped from them post patch and yet all of a sudden it’s meta?(and they still refuse to put it in the meta section on metabattle) Made no sense to me how that happened but i think it’s because people have no idea...have never analyzed Zerg/Gvg fighting at a meaningful level.

    • the last rework makes cleansing more important now and actually requires dedicated cleanse supports even more than before. So while support Tempest took a hit, the ability to cleanse it still provides became more valuable
    • top tier GvG has replaced thief with Soulbeast, which provides a high level of immob. This does not work as well on open border or beyond 20 player compositions, is rather difficult to play (high risk/reward) and a tempest still provides good immob at range

    This has more to do with the shift in meta and balance to other classes versus the change to elementalist. Basically support tempest fits better into todays meta.

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Same thing with Ministrel Spellbreaker. This build right now is considered meta on metabattle and all of of its traits and stats are designed around support, but it probably does as much cleansing as a firebrand in practice. The only reason for warrior is Bubble...but there’s no reason to go Ministrel when you can still go damage spell breaker and do actual useful things.

    No, it doesn't. I play one in GvG and while we might not be top tier like Lays or similar, in mid tier and up until right before top tier, support spellbreaker outperforms Firebrand cleanses by a mile. Yes, with a switch back to full power after the initial rush to conditions, dedicated cleanses for GvG dropping, some guilds have gone with Berserker for damage or damage Spellbreaker again. If your support Spellbreaker is not outperforming your Firebrand on cleanses or even rivaling your scrapper for any fights up to 4 minutes, replace your spellbreakers.

    The other aspect is the loss warrior took with the rework of his defensive traits. Offensive Spellbreaker drops a lot easier now than pre nerf. Especially in blob or border fights. The nerf to WoD, the change to warhorn skills to affect 10 players, the global reduction in cleanses overall and the nerf to warrior survival, make it very hard to justify taking a warrior along at all (in organized compositions).

    High end groups which have very good warriors who don't face-tank all damage have them run offensive, for any other warrior it's get more tanky or rip. Especially when you play your setup on border as well.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    In a general sense, blocking an attack is equivalent to gaining a heal.

    Everything in the game can be broken down into three fundamental constituents: Damage, Healing and a third that i won't talk about here.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and I heal myself using Skill B for 6000 Healing, Than I did 6000 healing, and you only did 4000 damage.

    If you use Skill A to hit me for 10,000 damage, and i use Aegis to block an attack, Than i preventatively "heal" myself for 10,000. So i did 10,000 healing, and you only did 0 damage.

    The higher amplitude, and less frequent these attacks, the more impact Aegis makes on a fight, in the form of "preventative healing." The same logic is used for determining the usefulness of %damage reduction abilities like Protection, Frost Aura and %reduction food. If your aegis targets 5 people, and you prevented 500/1000/5000/6000/10000 damage attacks, then that Aegis application applied a "preventative" 22,500 healing.

    how many times does aegis block a 10k attack? its useless.

    Really? I must have imagined all those times my CoR said 'Blocked' when it runs into a group. Aegis is great for blocking spike damage or key skills, like any other form of damage mitigation.

    Imagine if aegis stacked....fml.

    D:

    Please no, we don't need more reasons to bring guardian to WvW...

    Yes but you could stack up a massive....SHATTER AEGIS BOMB!

    D:

    But that just means...more SCOURGES!!!

    If a scourge strips 25 stacks of aegis that would still be a HUGE shattered aegis!

    D:

    Does Shattered Aegis proc on stripped Aegis?

    I don't actually use it, but I would assume for blocking only and not by removal due to an un-blockable strip. In its current stat it's not a super useful trait. If anything you get hit hard by retal if it does trigger within an enemy blob.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, it doesn't. I play one in GvG and while we might not be top tier like Lays or similar, in mid tier and up until right before top tier, support spellbreaker outperforms Firebrand cleanses by a mile.

    I've yet to see a warrior do actual work on the cleanse meter so... unless you show me some evidence of warriors hitting at LEAST top 3 on cleanse charts in a 3-5 minute fight (not a one push) than until then, i won't be convinced they serve much use in the support department.

    the last rework makes cleansing more important now and actually requires dedicated cleanse supports even more than before. So while support Tempest took a hit, the ability to cleanse it still provides became more valuable

    Ya, i get that. I don't mind people running tempest. But, i don't see why everyone considers it to be important NOW than it was PRE-patch, especially after what made tempest good was taken from them. If you need more cleanse just bring scrappers why bother with a tempest? They lost over 60% of their healing, 25% of their cleansing and actual utility. They lost almost everything. Just because condi-meta came back doesn't mean tempest gets magically better.

    I've been observing cleanses going out from tempests running in top guild squads, and honestly i just get really angry when i'm out-cleansing them on my meme revanant. I get angry because i usto main Tempest, so i know exactly how capable they were and that they us to be able to top cleanse. so seeing everyone all of a sudden bandwagon and do pitiful cleansing in comparison to me and scrappers just makes me think what is going on thought process wise in their head. The ship sailed a long time ago, everyone is 10 months too late.

    Here check out this cleanse meter for example.

    This is TpW (and a bunch of ESL's running alt guild tags.) Every group has a Tempest and a Scrapper. There is also at least 2 Minstrel Support Warriors in there but they aren't even close to the top 10. Personally, i was testing a meme Rev heal build (like 3rd day play a revanant ever.)

    So imagine my reaction right now in this fight ( and all the other fights this night). I'm actually just super mad. How is it that these tempests who are ESL level players barely scratching 200 cleanses, against the scrappers scooping 300-400 cleanses, and supposedly tempests are meta now because they are good cleanse? I'm sitting their mashing just my 6 key on rev doing cleanses bigger than these tempests... i was actually fuming.

    Again another example

    This one is a bit wonky because there was a time difference in combat, but it was the same general picture throughout the whole fight. Tempests were biting the dust in comparison to everyone else. One of the warriors does okay for a warrior, he's able to actually out cleanse a few of the tempests. But again what i'm thinking here is "Why are people taking tempests now because its clearly not for the cleansing is it?"

    Anyway i'm not trying to prove a point or anything. I'm cool with whatever people want to do so long as it's actually doing something useful. Being a former Tempest main just bothered me that people weren't even keen on Tempest until AFTER they were nerfed into the ground. so it just leads me to believe that people don't even know what they are doing in the game when it comes to build analysis etc.