Downstate has got to go! — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Downstate has got to go!

Einar.1482Einar.1482 Member ✭✭

Look its time Anet removed downstate in competitive game modes. IE: wvw/spvp.
There is no reason why a player or players should have to continue using cooldowns on players who have been beaten. If they want to implement a rez mechanic implement hard rez utility skills such as Sig of undeath and Sig of Mercy.
These skills are fantastic and certainly serve a place in the game as a rez mechanic but we have got to get away from players in downstate continuing to cause issues for players who are not downed.
Furthermore, this eliminates some of the BM that can occur with downed bodies such as siege, jumping. bleeding out etc.
There will be some that argue bleeding out is an important mechanic in gw2 Spvp. While this may have some merit I still find it to be largely unhealthy for a player vs player mode or anything even resembling a competitive game mode. Im sure there are some examples that are eluding me at the moment but the majority of semi competitive games to the higher tier competitive games do NOT have a downstate mechanic * and certainly not one where the downed player can still interact with the players who are not downed in a way that is meaningful*

Perhaps this would lead to more bursty gameplay or perhaps more sustaining gameplay but it would allow players who are skilled to win outnumbered fights while furthermore incentivize team play and cooperation because death is a much more realistic and looming threat.

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Comments

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Downstate is okay. And an interesting mechanics. Only the rallying is a bit "funny" sometimes ... when suddenly you get up cause some enemy you die enough damage gets killed by a teammate and you don't even see it because they are already fighting somewhere else. :D

  • Alaya.8765Alaya.8765 Member ✭✭

    They do not even have to remove the Downstate. It would already improve the whole experience a ton if we could get Downed penalty in PvP.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    Downstate ups the skill cap by adding a layer of teamwork, awareness, decision making, etc to a game where the combat is frankly not particularly skilled, damage application especially is faceroll, even more so on certain classes. (an "action" combat game that aims for you, LOL)

    Which is why more skilled players tend to manage downstate better than less skilled ones., such as back when this game had "e-sports" you could see the handful of teams that were actually good, generally handled downstate better than the other PvP teams, let alone bad WvW players.

    It adds so much skill cap that no other competitive game has it. Imagine any moba/fps or whatever game with downstate. LMAO
    Not to mention that they are grossly unbalanced between classes. Its a mechanic to carry noobs who technically died. Theres no skill cap involved. And it gets even worse when you do 1vX down someone but u cant just go on the second dude cuz you have stomp the dude that should be dead in the first place while somehow hes still being able to attack you for hefty amount of damage

    The general rule is you died = you gtfo to spawn in any semi competent game. And i dont think theres any other game with downstate anyway apart from gw2.

  • senki.1046senki.1046 Member ✭✭✭

    yes remove rally at least

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    yes get rid of it and give me all of the downstate powers
    I want all profs # 2 skill into one and 1 billion downstate hp
    THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE

    Te lazla otstara.

  • I'm fine with rally being nerfed or going away entirely, but downed state is a core aspect of the game and the game is balanced around it. There are several skils whose entire purpose revolves around downed state.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    Downstate ups the skill cap by adding a layer of teamwork, awareness, decision making, etc to a game where the combat is frankly not particularly skilled, damage application especially is faceroll, even more so on certain classes. (an "action" combat game that aims for you, LOL)

    Which is why more skilled players tend to manage downstate better than less skilled ones., such as back when this game had "e-sports" you could see the handful of teams that were actually good, generally handled downstate better than the other PvP teams, let alone bad WvW players.

    There is no skill involved when you have beaten a player, on 20 health, and your skills are on cooldown to be then downed by a person in downed state. Whats worse is that since downed state abilities are so varied, the ranger you downed will actually revive much faster than you. Downed state skills favor condi bunker builds while punishing burst glass builds. Keep the downed state, remove downed state abilities imo.

  • LolLookAtMyAP.8394LolLookAtMyAP.8394 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    Downstate is not the problem.

    Rallying, rez skills, and no penalties are the problem.

    Noone likes a dumb snowball.

    Penalty:
    Down: Fragile debuff for 120 seconds (25% reduced damage, healing, defense)
    Down with Fragile debuff active: Near Death (50% reduced damage, healing, defense), refreshes to 120 seconds
    Down with Near Death debuff: Death.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What would happen to the fancy and flashy sPvP finishers if ANet were to remove downstate?

    The game make more money out of the player's vanity than out of the player's playing satisfaction. Mount have no real reason to exist due to the waypoint system yet players pushed for them and finally got them (Heck there were even sPvP thread asking for Lama mount). It's the same for gliders, mini-pet, armor/weapon skins or capes/backpack, they are mostly vanity money. Why would ANet remove a source of incoming money (finishers) to please the players? How would they gain anything by removing an easy source of income? It's not that removing downstate will suddenly make people buy the game or spend their money for in game goodies.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    What would happen to the fancy and flashy sPvP finishers if ANet were to remove downstate?

    The game make more money out of the player's vanity than out of the player's playing satisfaction. Mount have no real reason to exist due to the waypoint system yet players pushed for them and finally got them (Heck there were even sPvP thread asking for Lama mount). It's the same for gliders, mini-pet, armor/weapon skins or capes/backpack, they are mostly vanity money. Why would ANet remove a source of incoming money (finishers) to please the players? How would they gain anything by removing an easy source of income? It's not that removing downstate will suddenly make people buy the game or spend their money for in game goodies.

    They could just turn the finishers into on kill effects, then give us the option to turn them off during WvW when blobs get wiped so my screen isn't filled with dozens of blinding effects.

  • Yakez.7561Yakez.7561 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    No BM in competitive game modes sounds like boring game. I am BMing people in chess since the age of 4. I am entitled to have my teabags and have two full stacks of Omegas to siege every Ranger that I see in WvW. Especially friendly ones.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    They could just turn the finishers into on kill effects, then give us the option to turn them off during WvW when blobs get wiped so my screen isn't filled with dozens of blinding effects.

    Objectively, in how many instance did you see ANet favouring Quality of Life over their game mechanisms? Personally, I can't recall of any, but I can recall of plenty instances where they destroyed QoL for the sake of balancing a broken design or game mechanisms. Downstate is bound to stay, there are traits and runes effects dedicated to the downstate, there is IRL money to gain out of it. And above all, the downstate is designed with PvP in mind not with PvE, it's highly unlikely that ANet will invest time and money to go back on this design/mechanism. (As an outlet in form of temporary event, maybe. Permanently, nope, unlikely.)

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    Necro's downstate damage is the OP outlier in this scenario. So many times have I 1v1 a Necro, fair and square. Just to be killed by his ridiculous downstate abilities. Aoe condi spawns or power damage AA. I understand the class's power over death, but is the purpose truly to frustrate players?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Necro's downstate damage is the OP outlier in this scenario. So many times have I 1v1 a Necro, fair and square. Just to be killed by his ridiculous downstate abilities. Aoe condi spawns or power damage AA. I understand the class's power over death, but is the purpose truly to frustrate players?

    the tradeoff is that they cant reposition, and its rather easy to stomp them.

  • Fearless.3569Fearless.3569 Member ✭✭✭

    Down state is only of the things that empowers server stacking. It gives the team that is outnumbered little to no room for counter-play. Which only empower the need to server stack. Since having more numbers than your opponent is pretty much the key to victory.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Einar.1482 said:
    Look its time Anet removed downstate in competitive game modes. IE: wvw/spvp.
    There is no reason why a player or players should have to continue using cooldowns on players who have been beaten. If they want to implement a rez mechanic implement hard rez utility skills such as Sig of undeath and Sig of Mercy.
    These skills are fantastic and certainly serve a place in the game as a rez mechanic but we have got to get away from players in downstate continuing to cause issues for players who are not downed.
    Furthermore, this eliminates some of the BM that can occur with downed bodies such as siege, jumping. bleeding out etc.
    There will be some that argue bleeding out is an important mechanic in gw2 Spvp. While this may have some merit I still find it to be largely unhealthy for a player vs player mode or anything even resembling a competitive game mode. Im sure there are some examples that are eluding me at the moment but the majority of semi competitive games to the higher tier competitive games do NOT have a downstate mechanic * and certainly not one where the downed player can still interact with the players who are not downed in a way that is meaningful*

    Perhaps this would lead to more bursty gameplay or perhaps more sustaining gameplay but it would allow players who are skilled to win outnumbered fights while furthermore incentivize team play and cooperation because death is a much more realistic and looming threat.

    Downstate would be fine in the absence of rally. For most classes, except ranger and/or necro which are exceptional at recovering. Rally should be deleted first.

  • LolLookAtMyAP.8394LolLookAtMyAP.8394 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    Downstate is not the problem.

    Rallying, rez skills, and no penalties are the problem.

    Noone likes a dumb snowball.

    Penalty:
    Down: Fragile debuff for 120 seconds (25% reduced damage, healing, defense)
    Down with Fragile debuff active: Near Death (50% reduced damage, healing, defense), refreshes to 120 seconds
    Down with Near Death debuff: Death.

    Are you seriously suggesting 2 minutes of cutting stats by half? People cry for balance changes when something outperforms by 10-15%, and you want to throw out 25% and 50% penalities lasting for 2 whole minutes? In a game where the whole match lasts 8-10 mintes no less.

    People would just let their teammates die, rallying would be the worse thing that could happen to you.

    Yes, I am seriously suggesting, and yes, it would work. 50% still lets you capture points and use crowd control + utility normally.

    The debuff should be reduced by 60 seconds if achieving OOC though.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    Downstate is not the problem.

    Rallying, rez skills, and no penalties are the problem.

    Noone likes a dumb snowball.

    Penalty:
    Down: Fragile debuff for 120 seconds (25% reduced damage, healing, defense)
    Down with Fragile debuff active: Near Death (50% reduced damage, healing, defense), refreshes to 120 seconds
    Down with Near Death debuff: Death.

    Are you seriously suggesting 2 minutes of cutting stats by half? People cry for balance changes when something outperforms by 10-15%, and you want to throw out 25% and 50% penalities lasting for 2 whole minutes? In a game where the whole match lasts 8-10 mintes no less.

    People would just let their teammates die, rallying would be the worse thing that could happen to you.

    Yes, I am seriously suggesting, and yes, it would work. 50% still lets you capture points and use crowd control + utility normally.

    The debuff should be reduced by 60 seconds if achieving OOC though.

    One last attempt at making you think this through: If your teammate goes down in a fight and you rally/rez them, they are USELESS for 2 minutes: Thieves/eles/guards running around with 6K max health, support builds that cannot heal or support because their stats were axed(they cannot get away like thieves, they are free food), not to mention how do you handle it when the 50% penality lifts during a duel? When your vitality suddenly doubles, do you get a 6K+ heal instantly or what? If you get no heal, you are susceptible to all kinds of traits proccing on low health targets because your current health now is way below 50%, which can lead to serious damage taken vs a power reaper for example. And that's just some of the problems off the top of my head, I'm sure thinking about it some more would make me list like 15 more.
    This game has many complicated systems interacting with each other, and none of those systems were ever designed/balanced with things like an temporary 50% stat reduction in mind. It would take serious effort to redesign those systems, to code, and the result would be ruining the game.

    So if thinking all that through you still stand beside your suggestion... well I'm so sorry. I tried. I know suggesting things on this forum can be fun, but consider taking a look at all the other fun things you could be doing with your life!

  • LolLookAtMyAP.8394LolLookAtMyAP.8394 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    Downstate is not the problem.

    Rallying, rez skills, and no penalties are the problem.

    Noone likes a dumb snowball.

    Penalty:
    Down: Fragile debuff for 120 seconds (25% reduced damage, healing, defense)
    Down with Fragile debuff active: Near Death (50% reduced damage, healing, defense), refreshes to 120 seconds
    Down with Near Death debuff: Death.

    Are you seriously suggesting 2 minutes of cutting stats by half? People cry for balance changes when something outperforms by 10-15%, and you want to throw out 25% and 50% penalities lasting for 2 whole minutes? In a game where the whole match lasts 8-10 mintes no less.

    People would just let their teammates die, rallying would be the worse thing that could happen to you.

    Yes, I am seriously suggesting, and yes, it would work. 50% still lets you capture points and use crowd control + utility normally.

    The debuff should be reduced by 60 seconds if achieving OOC though.

    One last attempt at making you think this through: If your teammate goes down in a fight and you rally/rez them, they are USELESS for 2 minutes: Thieves/eles/guards running around with 6K max health, support builds that cannot heal or support because their stats were axed(they cannot get away like thieves, they are free food), not to mention how do you handle it when the 50% penality lifts during a duel? When your vitality suddenly doubles, do you get a 6K+ heal instantly or what? If you get no heal, you are susceptible to all kinds of traits proccing on low health targets because your current health now is way below 50%, which can lead to serious damage taken vs a power reaper for example. And that's just some of the problems off the top of my head, I'm sure thinking about it some more would make me list like 15 more.
    This game has many complicated systems interacting with each other, and none of those systems were ever designed/balanced with things like an temporary 50% stat reduction in mind. It would take serious effort to redesign those systems, to code, and the result would be ruining the game.

    So if thinking all that through you still stand beside your suggestion... well I'm so sorry. I tried. I know suggesting things on this forum can be fun, but consider taking a look at all the other fun things you could be doing with your life!

    Feisty, I like it! Except I never said 50% overall stat reduction, so try again.

  • Antycypator.9874Antycypator.9874 Member ✭✭✭

    There's something not right if a downed necromancer can bring down other player and kill. I remember I did the same thing as a condi mirage. Downed state should be nerfed — less damage, less hp.

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    Are rallies and resses actually a problem for you guys?

    They almost never come through in my games. There's way too much cleave and CC for that to happen unless someone dies in LoS with allies already near.

    The only time I see resses go unpunished are when I do pug ATs and get matched against against gold or all welcome teams.

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    There's something not right if a downed necromancer can bring down other player and kill

    Fun fact. Necro used to have a flat 50% damage mod in downed state as a minor trait. It was bugged for a long time and when Anet fixed it Necros started oneshotting people from downed state because they had added Chill of Death since. It was truly a magical time.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    1. Safety in numbers no longer applies

    Indeed. So how that thing promotes higher skill cap when it in fact promotes zerking? If you are good enough you should be allowed to carry on your own like in other games and obligate noobs that get carried by outnumbering you in current state while your team is feeding so you might as well just go afk and wait for the match to finish. Good players should be rewarded not punished. Rest is down to balance. Adding something like a downstate was the worst idea ever and anyone playing outside of gw2 will make kitten face and laugh it off at how ridiculous that whole idea is

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    Downstate is not the problem.

    Rallying, rez skills, and no penalties are the problem.

    Noone likes a dumb snowball.

    Penalty:
    Down: Fragile debuff for 120 seconds (25% reduced damage, healing, defense)
    Down with Fragile debuff active: Near Death (50% reduced damage, healing, defense), refreshes to 120 seconds
    Down with Near Death debuff: Death.

    Are you seriously suggesting 2 minutes of cutting stats by half? People cry for balance changes when something outperforms by 10-15%, and you want to throw out 25% and 50% penalities lasting for 2 whole minutes? In a game where the whole match lasts 8-10 mintes no less.

    People would just let their teammates die, rallying would be the worse thing that could happen to you.

    Yes, I am seriously suggesting, and yes, it would work. 50% still lets you capture points and use crowd control + utility normally.

    The debuff should be reduced by 60 seconds if achieving OOC though.

    One last attempt at making you think this through: If your teammate goes down in a fight and you rally/rez them, they are USELESS for 2 minutes: Thieves/eles/guards running around with 6K max health, support builds that cannot heal or support because their stats were axed(they cannot get away like thieves, they are free food), not to mention how do you handle it when the 50% penality lifts during a duel? When your vitality suddenly doubles, do you get a 6K+ heal instantly or what? If you get no heal, you are susceptible to all kinds of traits proccing on low health targets because your current health now is way below 50%, which can lead to serious damage taken vs a power reaper for example. And that's just some of the problems off the top of my head, I'm sure thinking about it some more would make me list like 15 more.
    This game has many complicated systems interacting with each other, and none of those systems were ever designed/balanced with things like an temporary 50% stat reduction in mind. It would take serious effort to redesign those systems, to code, and the result would be ruining the game.

    So if thinking all that through you still stand beside your suggestion... well I'm so sorry. I tried. I know suggesting things on this forum can be fun, but consider taking a look at all the other fun things you could be doing with your life!

    Feisty, I like it! Except I never said 50% overall stat reduction, so try again.

    Not engaging with any of the points I made, but nitpicking on technicalities instead. I went and checked the math, indeed 50% stat reduction and 50% flat out damage/healing/whateverelse reduction isn't the same thing, the latter is worse. Congratulations, that changes nothing.

    The earth isn't flat, climate change is real, putting 50% flat reduction on most aspects of a player character after rallying twice is a terrible idea.

  • CroTiger.7819CroTiger.7819 Member ✭✭✭

    There is no way they gonna remove downstate because its rooted in this game and actually bring more depth to decision making. What definitly should be removed is rally because it support high mobility roam classes which are meta since start to be able to even rezz with high cleave dmg. Rally bot roles in pvp won t exist and bots overall won t have strenght to further kill your matches. So no rally is way to go aswell as adding penatly for each time you get down. This penalty should take 10% of your start hp when downed for each time you got downed so after 5 times being in down you are death without geting downed first. That would add more depth so when you play outnumbered fight you will have option to focus target with biggest penalty on down. It could be done also like being able to get in downstate once per 2min. Rally needs to get deleted definitly and not even be treated like 1 death for 1 rally but deleted from pvp cus its joke mechanic.

  • duster.7013duster.7013 Member ✭✭

    a fifth button to increase dying speed by 25% would be enough imo

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My input is that while I would be 100% fine with downstate being removed from sPvP, I don't see it as much of a problem at all as both sides are even in numbers, so everyone has the same advantage. Yes, it makes it very hard to 1vs2 in PvP when you get into better players, you might out skill both in 1vs1 and even get a down in 1vs2, but never able to finish, which can be annoying, however if you are keeping two people busy and even downing one while decapping etc the rest of your team should be controlling the rest of the map.

    Now, since you said WvW as well. Yes, here 100% remove downstate. There is already a problem with people stacking servers and zerg busting just isn't a thing with downstate. When we had no downstate events, some old school fight guilds came back to the game (and left again after the event), however seeing 15-20 cut a line straight through a 30-40 man zerg was wonderful, I had not seen that since the changes to stab. As with downstate, you would get downs, but due to aoe caps and pressure, you are often never able to finish the downs and they are able to res them far to fast while in combat if not instantly. As such the smaller but more skilled group can never thin the blob to be able to wipe them. The larger your group the larger the snowball effect it has on fights, people often complain about the stacked server blobs that cant be killed, but they don't want to do any changes that would allow the chance of wiping them with greater skill. However the player base in WvW over time shifted more and more casual as that is what anet has been pushing and adding to the game, with more and more passive game play, so many people hold onto this crutch because them going into downstate even though they out number you is somehow more "skillful game play".

    Some more middle ground options:

    Remove rally.

    Remove downed skills or balance them. Having a necro dealing more dmg in downstate than they did alive is stupid, same can be said for rangers with the pet that can often revive faster than one can cleave, and don't even get me started on trying to kill a ranger in water, if you down them there, you might as well not bother, because you can't stomp and underwater skills often don't come close to the revive from pet, which is just stupid game design. As well as ele being able to mist back into portals, why is this still possible?

    Remove in combat reviving just like defeated state already is, your team needs to win the fight before getting you back up.

    Maybe add a skill like GW1 that takes up a utility slot to revive someone in DS while in combat, skills would need a cast time so they can still be countered, but would add a layer of skill rather than just spamming F as often as you like. The skills would have a fairly long CD, and since it takes up a utility slot, you have to make the choice of giving up some other utility for the revive. The larger group would still have an advantage, but at least we would not have the constant power ressing and F spamming over and over.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    More like rally needs to go, can be unpredictable because it's time is invisible and based on who was last hit no matter where they die in the entire instance you're in.

    Put an emphasis on teamwork further more and stop snowballing altogether.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Nimrod.9240Nimrod.9240 Member ✭✭

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    Downstate ups the skill cap by adding a layer of teamwork, awareness, decision making, etc to a game where the combat is frankly not particularly skilled, damage application especially is faceroll, even more so on certain classes. (an "action" combat game that aims for you, LOL)

    Which is why more skilled players tend to manage downstate better than less skilled ones., such as back when this game had "e-sports" you could see the handful of teams that were actually good, generally handled downstate better than the other PvP teams, let alone bad WvW players.

    It adds so much skill cap that no other competitive game has it. Imagine any moba/fps or whatever game with downstate. LMAO
    Not to mention that they are grossly unbalanced between classes. Its a mechanic to carry noobs who technically died. Theres no skill cap involved. And it gets even worse when you do 1vX down someone but u cant just go on the second dude cuz you have stomp the dude that should be dead in the first place while somehow hes still being able to attack you for hefty amount of damage

    The general rule is you died = you gtfo to spawn in any semi competent game. And i dont think theres any other game with downstate anyway apart from gw2.

    Just from the top of my head, Apex Legends (has 2 diffrent Types of Downstate) and Call of Duty Warzone (has 3 diffrent Types of Downstate).

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’m all for removing downstate from the game entirely. It’s been used as a crutch for far too long.

  • LolLookAtMyAP.8394LolLookAtMyAP.8394 Member ✭✭✭

    Make a 8v8v8, 5 sec respawns, no downstate

  • Fantasylife.7981Fantasylife.7981 Member ✭✭✭

    yah they just dont understand downstate is a unbalance unfair mechanic that shunt be in PvP. Not good to have it in a competitive aspect.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I’m all for removing downstate from the game entirely. It’s been used as a crutch for far too long.

    It's not a crutch if everyone can use it. Also in a game where the difficulty suddenly goes from "enemies disintegrate in 2 hits and do no damage" to "dodge this attack from the boss or you die", we need downstate to keep showing new players their mistakes without outright removing them from the enounter.
    It needs a rebalance for sure. Necro and ranger are so much stronger compared to anything else when downed, reviving skills and reviving in general could use some adjustments to their numbers, but deleting a mechanic this game is designed around won't solve anything.

  • have you thought about a new mechanic for wvw/pvp only?
    like disable rezzing if in combat unless you have that specific trait in your build (that usually is located in a traitline for survivability or group play)

    that way stealth rez like a thief can do will work unchanged while in a 3v1 you can't rez the downed person unless one of you moves out of combat and even then a single touch interrupts it totally. but if you have this specific trait for it you can still rez mid-fight. support builds will most likely have it while dps builds won't. and in any case it takes 1 trait slot away from your build.
    that trait should always be located in core classes and not in elites and it could function like the old rez speed or fall dmg reduction traits did, i.e. it does allow the rez and has a class-specific bonus attached.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I’m all for removing downstate from the game entirely. It’s been used as a crutch for far too long.

    It's not a crutch if everyone can use it. Also in a game where the difficulty suddenly goes from "enemies disintegrate in 2 hits and do no damage" to "dodge this attack from the boss or you die", we need downstate to keep showing new players their mistakes without outright removing them from the enounter.
    It needs a rebalance for sure. Necro and ranger are so much stronger compared to anything else when downed, reviving skills and reviving in general could use some adjustments to their numbers, but deleting a mechanic this game is designed around won't solve anything.

    The number of people that can use it has no bearing on whether it’s a crutch or not. The reliance on it is what determines that.

    Players don’t learn from their mistakes if they see they can just be revived. Why should they mitigate damage when they know others can simply revive them when they get downed? Most other games don’t have a downstate. Why do GW2 players need to be special and need this “to learn”?

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    They could just turn the finishers into on kill effects, then give us the option to turn them off during WvW when blobs get wiped so my screen isn't filled with dozens of blinding effects.

    Objectively, in how many instance did you see ANet favouring Quality of Life over their game mechanisms? Personally, I can't recall of any, but I can recall of plenty instances where they destroyed QoL for the sake of balancing a broken design or game mechanisms. Downstate is bound to stay, there are traits and runes effects dedicated to the downstate, there is IRL money to gain out of it. And above all, the downstate is designed with PvP in mind not with PvE, it's highly unlikely that ANet will invest time and money to go back on this design/mechanism. (As an outlet in form of temporary event, maybe. Permanently, nope, unlikely.)

    Funny how you come up with a supposedly hard question, but after you get an easy solution you back off into "Anet won't favour QoL!". Then why did you even ask the previous question?

    Mount have no real reason to exist due to the waypoint system yet players pushed for them and finally got them

    And that's just false. Existence of WPs didn't eliminate the need for traveling on foot and mounts are just faster and more convenient with their movement abilities.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I’m all for removing downstate from the game entirely. It’s been used as a crutch for far too long.

    It's not a crutch if everyone can use it. Also in a game where the difficulty suddenly goes from "enemies disintegrate in 2 hits and do no damage" to "dodge this attack from the boss or you die", we need downstate to keep showing new players their mistakes without outright removing them from the enounter.
    It needs a rebalance for sure. Necro and ranger are so much stronger compared to anything else when downed, reviving skills and reviving in general could use some adjustments to their numbers, but deleting a mechanic this game is designed around won't solve anything.

    The number of people that can use it has no bearing on whether it’s a crutch or not. The reliance on it is what determines that.

    Literally everyone relies on getting revived from time to time. I don't understand what kind of point you're making here.

    Players don’t learn from their mistakes if they see they can just be revived. Why should they mitigate damage when they know others can simply revive them when they get downed?

    Those who don't learn beCaUsE they can be revived, wouldn't learn because they die outright. They would just stay laying around as corpses to scale up the fight for anyone else. After the fight they expect a revive and a reward. If anything, making them reviveable for a short period of time makes the fights better, after all most of them autoattack. Guild Wars 2 is appealing to casuals, these people are a kind of casuals. You cannot really force them to learn, if they don't get their participation trophies for minimal effort, they leave.

    Most other games don’t have a downstate. Why do GW2 players need to be special and need this “to learn”?

    So this is what I get for using an example for a stage that everyone goes through while learning the game... a question implying something incredibly condescending and noTSmArT. Since you seem to have this totally backwards: this is a PvP forum, so here comes the PvP reasoning.
    Downstate adds depth and complexity to the combat, especially teamfights. Simply bursting someone 100-0 in 2- seconds often means nothing if your team cannot follow up by some cleave/interrupts/stomp. Bursting someone is easy(everyone can press 4-5 buttons in a row), maintaining proper control over the body is much harder. This is where teamfights are actually decided, not by who "presses 5 buttons" first.
    You can have this complexity in the game, or what you are suggesting: all of these mindgames go out the window, I pressed 5 buttons, enemy dead.

    So allow me to turn this question back on you, do you think GW2 players can't handle the complexity downstate adds to PvP, are they so special that they need a much simpler game without it?

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Nimrod.9240 said:

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    Downstate ups the skill cap by adding a layer of teamwork, awareness, decision making, etc to a game where the combat is frankly not particularly skilled, damage application especially is faceroll, even more so on certain classes. (an "action" combat game that aims for you, LOL)

    Which is why more skilled players tend to manage downstate better than less skilled ones., such as back when this game had "e-sports" you could see the handful of teams that were actually good, generally handled downstate better than the other PvP teams, let alone bad WvW players.

    It adds so much skill cap that no other competitive game has it. Imagine any moba/fps or whatever game with downstate. LMAO
    Not to mention that they are grossly unbalanced between classes. Its a mechanic to carry noobs who technically died. Theres no skill cap involved. And it gets even worse when you do 1vX down someone but u cant just go on the second dude cuz you have stomp the dude that should be dead in the first place while somehow hes still being able to attack you for hefty amount of damage

    The general rule is you died = you gtfo to spawn in any semi competent game. And i dont think theres any other game with downstate anyway apart from gw2.

    Just from the top of my head, Apex Legends (has 2 diffrent Types of Downstate) and Call of Duty Warzone (has 3 diffrent Types of Downstate).

    Which are not the same as an MMO.

    In your examples, you are talking FPS games that can have one shot kills in a mode that once you are defeated you are out for the remainder of the game. While in GW2 you keep respawning until the match is over or forever in WvW. You can also be revived from defeated by just pressing F, while in Apex, you have a timer on the banner that you have to either clear the other team before getting, or be super fast and sneaky to recover the banner before the timer expires (and many people camp them). Even still, that doesn't revive the person, you then have to go to well marked respawn points, and stand out in the open with a cast time, which then lets everyone know you are respawning someone, who is coming back into the game without gear and has to jump out of the plane in full view of everyone around to take free shots at. Also, downs in Apex have no skills, utility or self revive outside of gold shield unlike GW2, so your team has to win or push off the other team to get the revive, and revive is static across the board, and you can't stick a revive in Apex while being pushed, you would die, while in GW2 it is not just possible, but common for people to revive while being cleaved, not including special skills or traits that can almost instant revive a downed player, killing someone from the other team that your downed teammate might have hit also does not result in them rallying in Apex either, because that is just a snowball effect which has no place in competitive.

    If you want to change downstate to Apex style, in that DS has no skills, no self revive, no rally and requires a teammate to get you up and revive speed is static across all classes etc etc, I would welcome it with open arms. Come to think of it, Apex is actually very close to the idea I would like to see if DS isn't removed.

    Side note but worth mentioning, I don't really mind DS in PvP, teams are forced even numbers, and while it might keep you from winning a 1vs2 its not like WvW. Though I would not mind it being removed either. WvW however, 100% remove, it's a snowballing effect and makes stacking servers the most effective tactic in the game, not skill.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore