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PVP Scoring works how?

John.8507John.8507 Member ✭✭✭

How does the scoring work.

Played 3 matches today, 1 match lost 500 - 475 so that was close, but lost -17 points. 2nd match Won match 500 - 227 and only gained 7 points, then won again 502 - 352 and gained 13 points.

So even though I won 2, lost 1, I only overall gained 3 points?

Doesn't seem like will ever move up, and most the time you lose more points for a loss than you gain for a win. It should be the other way round.

Comments

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rating gain/loss has nothing to do with game score or personal performance. It is entirely RNG based on who you're matched with.

    If the people in your games are lower rating than you, you will lose more/gain less.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    you gain more points for matches you are expected to lose and vice versa. its kinda dumb but there it is.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it is easy to understand if you know how the system behind it works. Afaik it is only about loss vs. win ... and the score difference doesn't matter. (500 vs. 50 is the same as 500 vs 499.) Then it takes your own score vs the average score of the enemy team.

    Winning against stronger enemies gives more rating gain. (It means you are stronger ... and more so in the case for winning against stronger enemies. Therefore stronger correction by increasing your reating more.) Losing against weaker enemies gives more rating loss. (Same logics here.)

    Problem is that I also sometimes get those +12, -13, -13 stuff. And it is pretty annoying to only barely lose (490 vs. 500 or so) because of minor mistakes - especially if team members make the mistakes and it is hard to control.

    I'd prefer if there was either hiding the own rating (while still calculating it and using it for matching) or showing all the players rating at the match end (when team queued/duo queued players get revealed). Or for hiding the own rating at least an option. Personally I would find that more encouraging - easier to just play for fun and not getting demotivated by the red numbers and minus, minus, minus always and then finally winning and the plus with a small number. I'd rathre not see that at all. (And I know some need it as motivation to see progress. That's why "optional" would be nice - to set a checkbox that hides the rating which then is used for the following/next season and unchecking/checking only will change it at the next season so you can't just uncheck every match.)

  • Rufo.3716Rufo.3716 Member ✭✭✭

    The system is kitten and doesn't even do a good job of measuring skill. Unless you want to grind forever you aren't really going to move up at all.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rufo.3716 said:
    The system is kitten and doesn't even do a good job of measuring skill. Unless you want to grind forever you aren't really going to move up at all.

    so not true, you can climb rather fast in gw2, you can legit go from gold1 to plat 2 in 2days of playing. other games are MUCH worse.
    for example with 80% winrate in league to go from iron to dia it will take me give or take a month.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rufo.3716 said:
    The system is kitten and doesn't even do a good job of measuring skill.

    yes

    Unless you want to grind forever you aren't really going to move up at all.

    no.

    If you're good and you have a DuoQ partner around your skill level, then you're winning like 80-90% of your games anyway. It doesn't matter that you're getting like +3 from wins, -20 from losses(because everyone is worse than you)

    There is really nowhere to go but up when you win every game like that, and it doesn't take a whole lot of grinding depending on where placements put you.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rufo.3716 said:
    The system is kitten and doesn't even do a good job of measuring skill. Unless you want to grind forever you aren't really going to move up at all.

    That hasn't been my experience.

  • John.8507John.8507 Member ✭✭✭

    How is this right

    I’ve won 46, and lost 43 = 1168 points.

    But A guild member has won 45 and lost 43, and yet they have a score of 1440?

    They have 272 points more?

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just win, don't loose

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @John.8507 said:
    How is this right

    I’ve won 46, and lost 43 = 1168 points.

    But A guild member has won 45 and lost 43, and yet they have a score of 1440?

    They have 272 points more?

    What's your rating and his rating after placements?

    Maybe he was 250ish points ahead from the start

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2020

    Imo, this match maker algorithm is the worst one ever devised in any video game that i have played competitive mode for.
    Idc about low population, a top 10 player who has been top 10 since pvp conception should not be pitted against a gold 3 players or lower that has been gold 3 or lower since pvp conception ever.
    Because this happens one to many times it's my honest option that this mma is a fail and needs a redesign.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    MMR systems are just a fancy graphs where players who lose games they're advantaged in will lose more points and those who win games they're supposed to lose gain more points. If you win a game you're supposed to win, you gain few points, because the outcome was already expected.

    The determination for point gain/loss is determined by a history of who beats who; if player A beats player B, but player C beats player A, then C gains more points for beating A than they would for beating B. If B then beats C, the MMR stabilizes towards indicating all three players are roughly the same skill-level. If they all beat player D, the system determines player D is worse than all three. Over many games, the samples regulate and accuracy is determined.

    Magnitude and accuracy of gains/losses is heavily based on the number of players competing and how often they play, though, especially since it's team-based. The problem is the sPvP community in GW2 is in shambles because the game is so horribly balanced, so you'll have to spam a lot of games, probably with a lot of the same players in various win/loss states, meaning it's difficult to find players in your appropriate bracket and get an accurate MMR.

    With tighter balance and a subsequently larger community, the ranking system would be better. Unfortunately, you can'y force people to play a game they don't find fun to increase the accuracy of the MMR algorithm and larger pool of competitive players to group together appropriately.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2020

    @John.8507 said:
    How is this right

    I’ve won 46, and lost 43 = 1168 points.

    But A guild member has won 45 and lost 43, and yet they have a score of 1440?

    They have 272 points more?

    What you're missing, is that it doesn't just matter whether you win or lose.

    It matters WHO you win or lose AGAINST.

    If you win against good players, you gain lots of rating.

    If you win against bad players, you gain very little rating.

    Likewise, if you lose against good players, you don't lose much rating, but if you lose against bad players, you will lose ALOT of rating.

    "good" and "bad" here are relative to your own rating.

    Winning 10 games against total noobs is worth the same as winning 1 game against pros.

    Also, it sounds like your guild-mate has some rating carried over from last season. He didn't start this season at the same place that you did, because he had already built up some rating last season.

  • Smoosh.2718Smoosh.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    How does it work?
    Simple, it doesnt.

    Since there is no 1v1 pvp system in place, ranking means kitten all. Lets be honest here you can not take the rank system seriously in a team game of 5v5 when you cant queue as a 5 man team. As a result everyone should stop caring about the rank system or placements, since they mean kitten all.

    There is nothing worse than playing ranked games taking them seriously, to then be put in a team of silver to low gold players when you're the only plat player. Winning that game will net you next to nothing yet losing will drop up to 40 rank points. I used to fall into this trap really caring about ranking...

    So the TLDR version. Stop focusing on the ranked system unless you're an idiot who believes it means something.

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    Okay this how for I know it works

    First you have your 10 matchups which put you somewhere in the rang.
    Then you have about 20 games in which the amount of points added and reduced are contently deceasing from +-25 to +-12/13

    The amount of points you gain or lose doesn't have much to do how you perform and the rank difference little impact the scoring.

    1.) The least amount of reduced point I ever had was -9 and this was matchup against a group 2 whole ranks above me and my team. This is pretty broken if anything say like silver 3 plays against gold 3 in case of S3 loses they should lose only 1 point and G3 should only gain 1 point. On the other side winning from S1 should give them 26 points giving the difference in rang naturally G3 loses then the same amount of points.

    Before someone cries this is unfair for the G3 guys this matchup is already horrible and in other games it might works differently there they take the difference between winner and looser and transfer a certain % of point from the looser to the winner. This also means when you reach the top it becomes really hard to gain point only tournament giving the top players then chance to gain more points.

    2.)From my personal experience I know how the matchmaking calculate a groups strength is also broken . What it does is taking the best player in one group and then tries to build a group that match it. This also works in unranked if the rank difference is great enough this can result in an awful experience.

    3.) Even with everything out of the way there is no personal scoring what you could do it is for each top stats you get one point less reduction.

    EDIT:

    Basically how the system works now is your ranking is determinant after 30 rounds from there on moving upwards is super hard and need a lot of grind also your performance are considered near to none at this point.

    This is also one of the explanation why weekends PvP sucks so much(on EU at least) there people who plays mainly at the weekend but their scoring is actually in your rank range because the fight a lot only each other during the weekend. The current system doesn't punish them enough to put them into to their actual rank.

    Same can be said about bots also the current system scores your own performance so less and preference grind this support bots a lot.

    For support players even if they nearly deleted the possibility to play them I will say this is also bad if you fall under gold 3 in EU your are screwed because people often don't group up there and your personal performance don't count your end up getting sucked downwards .

    Also I think the reason GW2 got kicked out of the ESL has also something to do with such a system.

  • John.8507John.8507 Member ✭✭✭

    So how are you meant to get better and go up divisions, most people only seem to care if your P1 or G3 or something to try tournaments, Yet every time i get close to going up a division my winning streak suddenly ends, as the game puts me in a match that's super hard to win, and end up losing.

    And yeah, you need to win 3 games to get ahead again and make up for 1 loss sometimes as the points gained for a win are so low.

  • There is not much you can do with the current system but some pro tips are :
    1.) Don't play weekends with the exception when a good pvp event is running
    2.) Stop for a moment when you lose
    3.) let it be a day when you loose 3 times in a row.
    4.) Duo queue but don't take someone with a much higher ranking then you or the experience will be awful.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    @John.8507 said:
    So how are you meant to get better and go up divisions, most people only seem to care if your P1 or G3 or something to try tournaments, Yet every time i get close to going up a division my winning streak suddenly ends, as the game puts me in a match that's super hard to win, and end up losing.

    And yeah, you need to win 3 games to get ahead again and make up for 1 loss sometimes as the points gained for a win are so low.

    Why do you assume you should be going up divisions?

    If you're in the correct division for your skill level, you'll stay there. Not everyone can be in Legendary. Otherwise what is the point of skill-rating?

    Also, why do you assume that the games you won were due to your own skill, but the games you lose were down to bad matchmaking? Surely by the same logic, the games you won were due to lucky matchmaking?

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    The simple fact is, that if you were to take any player in P3/Leg, and reset their rating to Bronze, they would be able to get back into at least P2 in less than a week (playing solo, no duo-Q or other shennanigans).

    This alone proves that the rating system is (mostly) down to skill and not random luck.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @John.8507 said:
    So how are you meant to get better and go up divisions, most people only seem to care if your P1 or G3 or something to try tournaments, Yet every time i get close to going up a division my winning streak suddenly ends, as the game puts me in a match that's super hard to win, and end up losing.

    And yeah, you need to win 3 games to get ahead again and make up for 1 loss sometimes as the points gained for a win are so low.

    If you silver 3 you have a lot to improve before starting blaming anything else

    I once was there, my first placements end up in silver 2 and finished that season like 10 points from reaching gold 1.

    It's hard to accept, but you below average, which is something around 1300 rating.

    I'll try to make things short

    My mistake at the time was not knowing my role, i'd grab my defense spellbreaker and go mid, while the class was a sidenoder, and mid they would eat throught my stunbreaks in 5 secs and get me killed.

    Here some videos and guides to help you out

    This guide is very helpful, go throught every topic even if it seems basic

    https://www.godsofpvp.net/guides/getting-started/introduction-r1/

    Find a streamer that plays same class as you to learn faster

    And if you can record and watch your own matches to check what you could have done better

    If possible look for a higher rated player than you to analyze with you for more insights

  • John.8507John.8507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    Well sure, of course I can be better, but it seems fixed when your so close to going up each time, and then you lose to stop you.

    And whats the point of this scoring - + 13, - 13, + 13, - 13 - 13 for the last 5 games?

    I'm winning more than I loose, for the last two seasons, so improving.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I felt that too, it was so hard to reach gold, it was like i could peak at 1208 and almost fall near silver 2 again.

    Then later i was so many times at the door of plat but the gap in skill was obvious this time, even if i could keep myself over 1450 the low plats would still farm mr easily, and if new there were any plat 2 player in the other team i would freak out and be ultra tilted before the match even started

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The simple fact is, that if you were to take any player in P3/Leg, and reset their rating to Bronze, they would be able to get back into at least P2 in less than a week (playing solo, no duo-Q or other shennanigans).

    This alone proves that the rating system is (mostly) down to skill and not random luck.

    I can only say it depends on a lot of other things too and that is the problem and for the record I was everywhere thanks to this over the time from p2 to bronze 3 usually I'm gold 3 / p1 . This season I was also silver 2 simply because I wanted to farm chards and don't skip the weekends also I have no one to duo queue and so on.

    There is also a lot of things that happens which unintentionally manipulate the ladder by the players doing e.g the last week of the season a lot of run of the mill players go up half a whole rank because ? Top players stop playing to safe their spot in the top 250 this gives the players a chance to rise . Arena:NET seems to know this because of this we have a event at the last week of the season.

    Also like shown at the beginning go from bronze to X is relative easy but when the longer you are in the spot the more grind it becomes which also increase the chance to run into bots / really bad players which makes the tour even longer. From my experience you can really get trapped by this so long you don't get to gold 3.

    There are also the problem that players might specialise in some builds an said builds get nerfed into oblivion.

    What I'm saying with this is it can be definitive be better.