how you buff core ele without making other specs op? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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how you buff core ele without making other specs op?

Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

I've been thinking about that and i can't get an answer, I think dagger and scepter could have a water field but them you'd bust weaver and tempest so much

i feel the dmg/sustain balance in core ele is the issue, you push one of those a little bit you lose alot the other side

maybe extra buffs on arcane based on how many elements you get, so you'd get some value picking 2 elements compared to 1 element arcane and another spec

dunno, it's just hard

Comments

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭

    Dagger with a water field would be too strong if you ask me considering the evasion on fire and earth. But it would make DD pretty attractive again.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    Only way to do this is to take from e-spec and give to core - this brings down the power level of e-spec and directly buffs core traitlines. Making core traits more attractive requires more hard choices, not being able to cherry pick with both hands.

    For example:

    • Putting Master's Fortitude (modified of course) into Water line. This would lower the defence of offensive fire Weaver, and buff the defense of water Weaver. Core would be buffed no matter what.
    • Putting Invigorating Torrents into Arcane. Water Support Tempest would lose some cleanse, having to take Fire line to make up for it and thereby becoming squishier. Core would be buffed no matter what.

    Doing this would also create alot stronger synergy between core lines and elite specs, instead of all the goodies being shoved into the e-spec line.

    Of course optimally we want all elite specs to revolve around it's own central mechanic (Holosmith is a great example, hard choices in every tier), however this is a design philosophy that appeared recently and the recent traitline reworks attest to that - which is good!

    But most likely this pass won't be made over all released e-specs, so until then the approach of creating stronger synergies between them and core seems the best alternative. Them using 5-minute cooldown placeholders for passive skills sure seems like a great opportunity.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Buff staff and then just deny it to the specs lol

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    An idea I liked was to just give it a fifth Arcane attunement, which would be lost for the elite specs.

    I rather choose death.

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭

    Move some trait behavior to core traits. The elite spec build will be the exact same, but the core build gets benefit.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    Improve synergies between core traitlines. Maybe make up some combos that need 3 core traitlines to be picked. It needs an extensive rework(although most of it could be just shuffling trait effects around), but it could be done.

    Or as others said, just nerf the elite spec traitlines.

  • LolLookAtMyAP.8394LolLookAtMyAP.8394 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    Buff cantrips through trait lines

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    Buff cantrips through trait lines

    This would buff Core but also Elite specs as well, which the whole point of the thread is to buff Core but not Elite specs, there are already buffs to cantrips through traits on water traitline so wouldn't make sense to add more to other traitlines

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    buff scepter and staff
    buff off meta utility skills and traits, incrementally

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    This for sure. Core traits need to be buffed. Not just buffs that help the element, but buffs that create a certain way of fighting: survival, cc, heals, support, etc. If these buffs change elites, then the Elites will need subsequent nerfs.

    Either that, or give core an additional mechanic that neither elites have.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    This for sure. Core traits need to be buffed. Not just buffs that help the element, but buffs that create a certain way of fighting: survival, cc, heals, support, etc. If these buffs change elites, then the Elites will need subsequent nerfs.

    Either that, or give core an additional mechanic that neither elites have.

    That would help too.

    Tempest has Overloads.
    Weaver has Dual Attacks.
    Core has nothing.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    nerf core ele :)

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

    I meant support as in : giving useful boons like Fury, Swiftness, Regeneration, Protection, Vigor.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

    Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core. Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation. Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

    Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core. If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    This for sure. Core traits need to be buffed. Not just buffs that help the element, but buffs that create a certain way of fighting: survival, cc, heals, support, etc. If these buffs change elites, then the Elites will need subsequent nerfs.

    Either that, or give core an additional mechanic that neither elites have.

    they could also give an extra buff when you attune to an element based on the other elements you have equipped, arcane and elites give you no buffs, so elite automatically loses 1 buff, potencially 2 if they run arcane

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

    Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core. Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation. Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

    Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core. If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

    but that's note the case, the faster attunement and the presence of water fields in sword and dagger make it more tanky you still have barriers ant traits that push your survival abilities even further, so you can go all in for dmg and still have better survivability than core

    same happens to tempest through overloads and traits being both better than core deffensive and agressive

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

    Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core. Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation. Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

    Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core. If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

    but that's note the case, the faster attunement and the presence of water fields in sword and dagger make it more tanky you still have barriers ant traits that push your survival abilities even further, so you can go all in for dmg and still have better survivability than core

    same happens to tempest through overloads and traits being both better than core deffensive and agressive

    Anet nerfed Core DD Ele and ever since then, Elites were bound to make up for those nerfs. Which made elites better and opposite to the side-grades they were supposed to be. Which is ironic, cause Core DD Ele would be an average build in today's meta.

    I wouldn't say revert all nerfs in the past so many years, but Anet shouldn't be so panicky of a possible Core DD resurgence.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

    Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core. Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation. Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

    Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core. If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

    but that's note the case, the faster attunement and the presence of water fields in sword and dagger make it more tanky you still have barriers ant traits that push your survival abilities even further, so you can go all in for dmg and still have better survivability than core

    same happens to tempest through overloads and traits being both better than core deffensive and agressive

    Anet nerfed Core DD Ele and ever since then, Elites were bound to make up for those nerfs. Which made elites better and opposite to the side-grades they were supposed to be. Which is ironic, cause Core DD Ele would be an average build in today's meta.

    I wouldn't say revert all nerfs in the past so many years, but Anet shouldn't be so panicky of a possible Core DD resurgence.

    dagger offhand is so bad right now, but again buffing it would auto buff the elites

    I've been trying some core ele builds survivability is always a problem, i still have to try the full defensive build with earth/water/fire, but tempest will still be better I think

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    they could transfer the buffs from elemental lockdown to the minor adept traits and get the trait better buffs, since you have to land a cc to get them, something like stab on earth the other ones are actually ok i think

  • FrownyClown.8402FrownyClown.8402 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    The problem is multiple things. The first being core traitlines have too much focus on buffing one attunement while elite specs tend to buff all aspects of the profession.

    The second problem is tempest is a better support and weaver is a better dps. Core ele is argueably a worse dps than tempest and worse at tanking than weaver as well.

    Core ele is great at being average at everything but trying to spec for damage makes you below average at staying alive and specing tank makes you bad at dps.

    Air attunement needs adjustments that dont rely on being in air and earth attunement needs a straight overhaul.

    Also the damage of some skills is really bad now. Offhand dagger is like the bread and butter of core ele but look how they hurt our boi

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    they could transfer the buffs from elemental lockdown to the minor adept traits and get the trait better buffs, since you have to land a cc to get them, something like stab on earth the other ones are actually ok i think

    Or remove the need for CC so you get more build freedom

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

    Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core.

    But it did.

    Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation.

    Except that a "heavy rotation" isn't really a burden in GW2 since this game's rotations generally have buffer bits in them which insulate risk for the user. Weaver sacrifices nothing and gains the only thing that there is to gain in GW2: more damage.

    Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

    That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the exact same builds. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

    Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core.

    Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

    If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

    Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that "Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier" are, in truth, just "Damage/Healing/Damage." GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

    Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core.

    But it did.

    Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation.

    Except that a "heavy rotation" isn't really a burden in GW2 since this game's rotations generally have buffer bits in them which insulate risk for the user. Weaver sacrifices nothing and gains the only thing that there is to gain in GW2: more damage.

    Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

    That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the exact same builds. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

    Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core.

    Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

    If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

    Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that "Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier" are, in truth, just "Damage/Healing/Damage." GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

    that's what I said, both tempest and weaver have better deffensive capabilities from whatever source, which allows them to get better offensive options

    weaver has a trait that gives you basically 5k hp, water fields and barrier
    tempest also has deffensive options in his trait line and water and earth overload to make you more tanky

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.
    Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.
    Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.
    When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

    Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

    Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core.

    But it did.

    Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation.

    Except that a "heavy rotation" isn't really a burden in GW2 since this game's rotations generally have buffer bits in them which insulate risk for the user. Weaver sacrifices nothing and gains the only thing that there is to gain in GW2: more damage.

    Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

    That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the exact same builds. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

    Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core.

    Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

    If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

    Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that "Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier" are, in truth, just "Damage/Healing/Damage." GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

    that's what I said, both tempest and weaver have better deffensive capabilities from whatever source, which allows them to get better offensive options

    weaver has a trait that gives you basically 5k hp, water fields and barrier
    tempest also has deffensive options in his trait line and water and earth overload to make you more tanky

    Yeah, and I agree. I was just trying to tell it to this guy. You can't just "keep GW2 design paradigms" in mind because GW2 has such a shallow, bloated design. The only way that you're going to get core ele to compete with weaver or tempest is to just passively buff it to have bigger numbers despite pressing the same buttons as always. That's only going to create more bloat.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    they could transfer the buffs from elemental lockdown to the minor adept traits and get the trait better buffs, since you have to land a cc to get them, something like stab on earth the other ones are actually ok i think

    Or remove the need for CC so you get more build freedom

    that was changed in the big patch, cuz ele was farting boons, the old one you got a boon everytime you were struck based on your attunement, so they changed to not be passive, but the boons were not updated to make up for how hard is to get them, i think they could add 5 secs duration to fire, air and water boons and give you stab 4 secs since the one is hard to get if you're not running staff.

    and then add boons to your minor adepts when you get hit, only if you have that element traitline equipped

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    give tempest and weaver actual trade offs

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    give tempest and weaver actual trade offs

    I can't imagine that without killing both specs right now, i mean, compared to the meta

  • BobbyT.7192BobbyT.7192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    An idea I liked was to just give it a fifth Arcane attunement, which would be lost for the elite specs.

    That sounds like something that would be it's own elite spec.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    give tempest and weaver actual trade offs

    They both do

    It's just that whatever elite spec comes along it will always be better than core ele just because core ele is so bad

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @BobbyT.7192 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    An idea I liked was to just give it a fifth Arcane attunement, which would be lost for the elite specs.

    That sounds like something that would be it's own elite spec.

    That's the point. Giving something to core that is lost when you use an elite.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the exact same builds. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

    Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

    Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that "Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier" are, in truth, just "Damage/Healing/Damage." GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

    I agree with the first point. Ele's Elites are better than core. But you assume that it's IMPOSSIBLE to change that which I just think is a lack of creativity.

    As for the second part. Support and healing are not the same thing. Take a look at FB and Tempest in their current viability. Tempest has better raw healing while FB has more support through boons. Tempest's design are about sharing auras. That's the support they provide. Tempest doesn't have to be a healing traitline. If you combine Tempest with Water. Then you have aura share and heals. Easy way to make these changes are swapping Powerful Aura and Elemental Bastion. Swapping those two traits buffs core and nerfs Tempest.

    Damage/Aura Share/ Melee & Barrier is not just Damage/Healing/Damage. Everything after that statement is a broad assumption. If Core Ele is focused on Damage for the most part, and Adequate healing/damage reduction in water/earth, then you can focus the elites on their raw design. Tempests can focus solely on share auras, shouts, and overloads, while weaver focuses more on dual skills/barrier/and even evades. A trait like Flow like Water, should really be in Weaver

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the exact same builds. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

    Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

    Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that "Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier" are, in truth, just "Damage/Healing/Damage." GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

    I agree with the first point. Ele's Elites are better than core. But you assume that it's IMPOSSIBLE to change that which I just think is a lack of creativity.

    As for the second part. Support and healing are not the same thing. Take a look at FB and Tempest in their current viability. Tempest has better raw healing while FB has more support through boons. Tempest's design are about sharing auras. That's the support they provide. Tempest doesn't have to be a healing traitline. If you combine Tempest with Water. Then you have aura share and heals. Easy way to make these changes are swapping Powerful Aura and Elemental Bastion. Swapping those two traits buffs core and nerfs Tempest.

    Damage/Aura Share/ Melee & Barrier is not just Damage/Healing/Damage. Everything after that statement is a broad assumption. If Core Ele is focused on Damage for the most part, and Adequate healing/damage reduction in water/earth, then you can focus the elites on their raw design. Tempests can focus solely on share auras, shouts, and overloads, while weaver focuses more on dual skills/barrier/and even evades. A trait like Flow like Water, should really be in Weaver

    It's certainly not a lack of creativity. It's a matter of whether or not you want to go through with a transformation that would effectively make GW2 into a different game by the end of it. The moment that players manually move with raptor mount leaps and rollerbeetle boosts while trying to joust each other in mid air with melee-range attack skills is the moment that GW2 becomes cool enough play. Chaining springer jumps and jackal teleports through the sky before skyscale clinging to walls and griffon sweeping back toward a point in order to throw down some AoE damage is what you want when it comes to manual movement.

    This game has cool movements and abilities in it; they just can't be used by players in PvP, and that's what holds it back.

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭

    Give core better procs on core autunment switch