You NEED/MUST nerf the repeater flip skill for shadow strike on PD condi thief in PVP — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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You NEED/MUST nerf the repeater flip skill for shadow strike on PD condi thief in PVP

Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited May 18, 2020 in PVP

This IS the most problematic thing about the current PD condi thief in pvp.

  • You can spam it up to 3 times, possibly 4 with quickness after a single shadow strike, at a cost of 2 ini...this is ridiculous.
  • It triggers deadly ambition with each repeater (3x, or 4x)
  • The bleeds are ridiculous for the spammability (3x,4x)
  • While this may not be the major burst, it can keep the enemy under constant heavy condition pressure from ranged.

Suggestions:
1. Make the flip skill repeater a one time use, just like the flip skill for s/d (imagine larcenous strike 3-4 times in a row......just imagine)
2. Increase the flip skill cost to 3 because it is the right thing to do when you nerf thief skills. You didn't truly nerf it if there was not an increase in cost.
3. Put a bit of a cast time on shadow strike, maybe make it 1/2 sec, or 1/4. If you go with 1/2 beef up the initial damage from the strike to make it worth it.

Bonus Request:

The venom share mechanic needs a rework.

Think about venoms like the thief carrying around a vial of venom. Potent stuff, but they share the bottle and the potency is therefor decreased.

So, make venoms stronger alone, but with shared application reduce the efficacy for each ally shared with such as a reduction of 10,20,30,35,40% (for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 allies shared).

Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
Fun Daredevil

<1

Comments

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    Make every weapon skill cost 8 initiatives. Period.

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    least of the problems....
    better remove the high power dmg on burst

    imagine repeater not be able to repeat....

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Koen.1327 said:
    least of the problems....
    better remove the high power dmg on burst

    imagine repeater not be able to repeat....

    it does repeat....5 shots....

    i promise if they remove this feature the build will DIE

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    Make every weapon skill cost 8 initiatives. Period.

    sure and every rev skill cost 35 energy period

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    This IS the most problematic thing about the current PD condi thief in pvp.

    • You can spam it up to 3 times, possibly 4 with quickness after a single shadow strike, at a cost of 2 ini...this is ridiculous.
    • It triggers deadly ambition with each repeater (3x, or 4x)
    • The bleeds are ridiculous for the spammability (3x,4x)
    • While this may not be the major burst, it can keep the enemy under constant heavy condition pressure from ranged.

    Suggestions:
    1. Make the flip skill repeater a one time use, just like the flip skill for s/d (imagine larcenous strike 3-4 times in a row......just imagine)
    2. Increase the flip skill cost to 3 because it is the right thing to do when you nerf thief skills. You didn't truly nerf it if there was not an increase in cost.
    3. Put a bit of a cast time on shadow strike, maybe make it 1/2 sec, or 1/4. If you go with 1/2 beef up the initial damage from the strike to make it worth it.

    Bonus Request:

    The venom share mechanic needs a rework.

    Think about venoms like the thief carrying around a vial of venom. Potent stuff, but they share the bottle and the potency is therefor decreased.

    So, make venoms stronger alone, but with shared application reduce the efficacy for each ally shared with such as a reduction of 10,20,30,35,40% (for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 allies shared).

    Another one, we already know ... in meantime try to deal with it. Venom share with teef guild meme? ... we already replaced this monkey stuff and replaced it by portal and basi elite to be even more mobile and kill u all even faster 🤙☠

  • fumcheg.1936fumcheg.1936 Member ✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    This IS the most problematic thing about the current PD condi thief in pvp.

    • You can spam it up to 3 times, possibly 4 with quickness after a single shadow strike, at a cost of 2 ini...this is ridiculous.
    • It triggers deadly ambition with each repeater (3x, or 4x)
    • The bleeds are ridiculous for the spammability (3x,4x)
    • While this may not be the major burst, it can keep the enemy under constant heavy condition pressure from ranged.

    Suggestions:
    1. Make the flip skill repeater a one time use, just like the flip skill for s/d (imagine larcenous strike 3-4 times in a row......just imagine)
    2. Increase the flip skill cost to 3 because it is the right thing to do when you nerf thief skills. You didn't truly nerf it if there was not an increase in cost.
    3. Put a bit of a cast time on shadow strike, maybe make it 1/2 sec, or 1/4. If you go with 1/2 beef up the initial damage from the strike to make it worth it.

    Bonus Request:

    The venom share mechanic needs a rework.

    Think about venoms like the thief carrying around a vial of venom. Potent stuff, but they share the bottle and the potency is therefor decreased.

    So, make venoms stronger alone, but with shared application reduce the efficacy for each ally shared with such as a reduction of 10,20,30,35,40% (for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 allies shared).

    There is no 4x, only 3x maximum. You don't have access to quickness in this build. And 3x imply's that thief just stands on the spot and keeps pressing 1 button. Eating all the incomming damage. If you can't handle with thief who stands still than nothing will help you. Literally nothing.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    You don't have access to quickness in this build.

    Thieves I fight will ALWAYS have quickness access except deadeye.

    Guess what class I play?

  • fumcheg.1936fumcheg.1936 Member ✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    You don't have access to quickness in this build.

    Thieves I fight will ALWAYS have quickness access except deadeye.

    Guess what class I play?

    If you are implying about Consume plasma stolen from mesmer then yes it will give you like 2-2.5 sec (nor sure) of quickness. After you use it. And then come to meele range, then use SS and then there is going to be genuine 0.1-0.2 quickness fest. Which of course will not turn 3x into 4x. Or you can use it right after steal and then go SS in hope that your enemy will stand there waiting you to prepare your quickinized SS. Anyway I believe there should be another topic "nerf the consume plasma".

    Btw why would mesmer complain about PD thief? It's much more easy to kill mesmer with DP or SD thief.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    You don't have access to quickness in this build.

    Thieves I fight will ALWAYS have quickness access except deadeye.

    Guess what class I play?

    I guess not mesmer because:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal_Time

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    Btw why would mesmer complain about PD thief? It's much more easy to kill mesmer with DP or SD thief.

    I don't complain about P/D thief at all, I play some kind of reflect-invuln-cleanse build so P/D die easy to me.

    Plasma on the other hand :)

    Edit: @Bazsi.2734 lol so that's why I can't dodge DJ sometimes.

  • fumcheg.1936fumcheg.1936 Member ✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    Btw why would mesmer complain about PD thief? It's much more easy to kill mesmer with DP or SD thief.

    P/D die easy to me.

    I believe they do. I mean once you understood how to fight them there is not much of a threat anymore.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On the one hand, Repeater could be a single flip skill. I don’t mind that at all, I even like that. But, Repeater spam isn’t doing the big damage against competent players. Multiple long channels like Repeater (base 1.25 seconds each) are begging for (1) counter pressure, (2) an interrupt, (3) projectile hate.

    You, correctly, mention venom is a big part of why this build became popular (because venoms are easy to play and apply/share). Venoms are easy to apply in a single attack if the attack hits multiple times, which is both Sneak Attack and Repeater and also just the auto attacks (which are smaller damage more often). Venoms are the issue, especially with Thieves Guild, so why not just address venoms?

    Here’s a few suggestions for changes to venoms:
    1. Venoms now apply only on the first attack of a single skill. Makes venoms more slow burn rather than spike.
    2. Like you suggested. Venom sharing decreases total stacks per person to 3. So you either get 6 yourself or shared with 3 people or NPCs you get up to 12 (not the current 24).

    Adding a cast time delay to Shadowstrike makes no sense to me. It is a teleport for kiting and adding cast time will only mean people precast it into teleport. So you change nothing except make it more clunky to use when you aren’t doing a teleport in-out combo (which is what people have been actually complaining about—although that’s basically been a complaint about thief generally for a long time). I’d note, there is a delay in the follow up damage on Shadowstrike (it is a melee strike that teleports followed by a higher damage shot on a delay). Lots of the damage can be avoided if you throw up a block/etc right after the teleport because a big chunk of power damage and the follow up Repeater will be blocked and that will consume venom charges if those have been applied.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Caine.8543Caine.8543 Member ✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    Make every weapon skill cost 8 initiatives. Period.

    sure and every rev skill cost 35 energy period

    this is actually the case in demon stance though...

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thing is pistol thief shouldn’t be a condition build. Remove bleeds entirely and nerf p/d 3 skill to the bottom of earth. Also rework thief’s guild to something with less thief’s and much lower duration. Idc if u make cd lower but thief’s guild lasting for 30 secs is insane and it should really only 2 thief’s at max, but according to logic I think 1 is enough

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Thing is pistol thief shouldn’t be a condition build. Remove bleeds entirely and nerf p/d 3 skill to the bottom of earth. Also rework thief’s guild to something with less thief’s and much lower duration. Idc if u make cd lower but thief’s guild lasting for 30 secs is insane and it should really only 2 thief’s at max, but according to logic I think 1 is enough

    Thing is, that’s been it’s design for nearly 8 years. And it’s a hybrid not a condition weapon.

    What is giving people burst condi here is venoms. A utility. Usually shared with Guild. I can do that on any weapon set. That’s what needs adjusting.

    You might as well have suggested removing damaging condi from the game. It isn’t helpful or realistic.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Thing is pistol thief shouldn’t be a condition build. Remove bleeds entirely and nerf p/d 3 skill to the bottom of earth. Also rework thief’s guild to something with less thief’s and much lower duration. Idc if u make cd lower but thief’s guild lasting for 30 secs is insane and it should really only 2 thief’s at max, but according to logic I think 1 is enough

    Thing is, that’s been it’s design for nearly 8 years. And it’s a hybrid not a condition weapon.

    What is giving people burst condi here is venoms. A utility. Usually shared with Guild. I can do that on any weapon set. That’s what needs adjusting.

    You might as well have suggested removing damaging condi from the game. It isn’t helpful or realistic.

    Only thing hybrid about pistol is p/d. No it’s not venoms- cuz then s/d condition thief would be busted meta too, but I’ve tested it and it’s decent but balanced. It’s just lol, thief’s guild having a 30 sec duration with 3 thief’s also doesn’t really have a place in pvp

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Thing is pistol thief shouldn’t be a condition build. Remove bleeds entirely and nerf p/d 3 skill to the bottom of earth. Also rework thief’s guild to something with less thief’s and much lower duration. Idc if u make cd lower but thief’s guild lasting for 30 secs is insane and it should really only 2 thief’s at max, but according to logic I think 1 is enough

    Thing is, that’s been it’s design for nearly 8 years. And it’s a hybrid not a condition weapon.

    What is giving people burst condi here is venoms. A utility. Usually shared with Guild. I can do that on any weapon set. That’s what needs adjusting.

    You might as well have suggested removing damaging condi from the game. It isn’t helpful or realistic.

    Only thing hybrid about pistol is p/d. No it’s not venoms- cuz then s/d condition thief would be busted meta too, but I’ve tested it and it’s decent but balanced. It’s just lol, thief’s guild having a 30 sec duration with 3 thief’s also doesn’t really have a place in pvp

    I don’t see why you couldn’t use something like the old s/d build. P/D has always had more condi application but s/d was considered better due to the teleports through walls.

    Just port in, thieves guild (Pre-cast), venom, steal, port out, rinse and repeat.

    But that’s an issue with well played Sword in general. They are harder to pin and if they are chunking your HP it’s not a good place to be in...

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Thing is pistol thief shouldn’t be a condition build. Remove bleeds entirely and nerf p/d 3 skill to the bottom of earth. Also rework thief’s guild to something with less thief’s and much lower duration. Idc if u make cd lower but thief’s guild lasting for 30 secs is insane and it should really only 2 thief’s at max, but according to logic I think 1 is enough

    Thing is, that’s been it’s design for nearly 8 years. And it’s a hybrid not a condition weapon.

    What is giving people burst condi here is venoms. A utility. Usually shared with Guild. I can do that on any weapon set. That’s what needs adjusting.

    You might as well have suggested removing damaging condi from the game. It isn’t helpful or realistic.

    Only thing hybrid about pistol is p/d. No it’s not venoms- cuz then s/d condition thief would be busted meta too, but I’ve tested it and it’s decent but balanced. It’s just lol, thief’s guild having a 30 sec duration with 3 thief’s also doesn’t really have a place in pvp

    I don’t see why you couldn’t use something like the old s/d build. P/D has always had more condi application but s/d was considered better due to the teleports through walls.

    Just port in, thieves guild (Pre-cast), venom, steal, port out, rinse and repeat.

    But that’s an issue with well played Sword in general. They are harder to pin and if they are chunking your HP it’s not a good place to be in...

    I wouldn’t play it w/ thief’s guild tbh. But even when they nerfed condition thief awhile back, even though I’d always hit my highest ranks when condi thief was meta, I would site the nerfs as a good thing because thief’s guild + venom share is busted. Even though I actually like condition thief, the p/d build is everything I’ve hated about condition thief all clumped together at the same time in 1 build and it’s pretty dang strong atm

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Take away the venom + guild and it’s actually not over performing in the slightest.

    If we must nerf we should target the actual problem and not destroy the gameplay.

    It’s like, Pistol has had bleed forever and doesn’t put out that much bleed. Taking away bleed and venoms moves the entire weapon away from viability rather than just eliminating the actual problem.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @fumcheg.1936 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    You don't have access to quickness in this build.

    Thieves I fight will ALWAYS have quickness access except deadeye.

    Guess what class I play?

    If you are implying about Consume plasma stolen from mesmer then yes it will give you like 2-2.5 sec (nor sure) of quickness. After you use it. And then come to meele range, then use SS and then there is going to be genuine 0.1-0.2 quickness fest. Which of course will not turn 3x into 4x. Or you can use it right after steal and then go SS in hope that your enemy will stand there waiting you to prepare your quickinized SS. Anyway I believe there should be another topic "nerf the consume plasma".

    Btw why would mesmer complain about PD thief? It's much more easy to kill mesmer with DP or SD thief.

    Sorry, but assuming we have quickness as a thief, it can go from 3 to 4.

    But, I had to make a video.

    You can count how many channels after after I hit with shadow strike.

    I am a thief main, not a good one by any means, but that's a different story.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    Make every weapon skill cost 8 initiatives. Period.

    sure and every rev skill cost 35 energy period

    Sure, if Energy costs are removed from weapon skills or Initiative costs are added to Thief utility skills.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    Make every weapon skill cost 8 initiatives. Period.

    sure and every rev skill cost 35 energy period

    Sure, if Energy costs are removed from weapon skills or Initiative costs are added to Thief utility skills.

    sure, if swapping legends doesn't grant any energy.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • fumcheg.1936fumcheg.1936 Member ✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    You don't have access to quickness in this build.

    Thieves I fight will ALWAYS have quickness access except deadeye.

    Guess what class I play?

    If you are implying about Consume plasma stolen from mesmer then yes it will give you like 2-2.5 sec (nor sure) of quickness. After you use it. And then come to meele range, then use SS and then there is going to be genuine 0.1-0.2 quickness fest. Which of course will not turn 3x into 4x. Or you can use it right after steal and then go SS in hope that your enemy will stand there waiting you to prepare your quickinized SS. Anyway I believe there should be another topic "nerf the consume plasma".

    Btw why would mesmer complain about PD thief? It's much more easy to kill mesmer with DP or SD thief.

    Sorry, but assuming we have quickness as a thief, it can go from 3 to 4.

    But, I had to make a video.

    You can count how many channels after after I hit with shadow strike.

    I am a thief main, not a good one by any means, but that's a different story.

    So much efforts spent in vain. PD condi build does not have direct acccess to quickness.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    So much efforts spent in vain. PD condi build does not have direct acccess to quickness.

    I almost always play mesmer and every thief I fight against will have quickness access. This might not be a balance baseline, but all mesmer players will feel like thieves always have a quickness utility or something like Sigil of Celerity.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    It's not even Repeater. It's that the build has way way way too much cycling stealth/disengage/sustain for the damage it pumps out. And most of that damage has nothing to do with Reapter. This build has more disengage that D/P, which is incredibly obnoxious considering the nature of the ranged attacks. It's P/D #3 that teleports the Thief backwards. <- This mixed with all of the other teleport effects is too much bounce man. Lately now that players are getting good on P/D, it's hard to secure kills against P/D even with a Berserker Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. As soon you even touch the Thief, he's gone like 2500+ range away from you and headed to the other side of the map.

    To much teleport, too much disengage, too much sustain. I don't even care about the damage. It's the reset factor that makes the damage feel OP.

    And that's not to mention some broken tactics that haven't become public yet, which people will eventually figure out if we get another 2v2. Imagine Thief venom share being coordinated over discord with Soulbeast stance share. Yes, the stance effects go onto the Thieves Guild NPCs - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vulture_Stance - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/One_Wolf_Pack

  • fumcheg.1936fumcheg.1936 Member ✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    It's not even Repeater. It's that the build has way way way too much cycling stealth/disengage/sustain for the damage it pumps out. And most of that damage has nothing to do with Reapter. This build has more disengage that D/P, which is incredibly obnoxious considering the nature of the ranged attacks. It's P/D #3 that teleports the Thief backwards. <- This mixed with all of the other teleport effects is too much bounce man. Lately now that players are getting good on P/D, it's hard to secure kills against P/D even with a Berserker Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. As soon you even touch the Thief, he's gone like 2500+ range away from you and headed to the other side of the map.

    To much teleport, too much disengage, too much sustain. I don't even care about the damage. It's the reset factor that makes the damage feel OP.

    OMG where just where this stuff even comes from??? Here is current meta PD build for you

    Just point out which of its traits and skills make it so exclusively teleportable and disengagable compared to DP meta build

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    So much efforts spent in vain. PD condi build does not have direct acccess to quickness.

    I almost always play mesmer and every thief I fight against will have quickness access. This might not be a balance baseline, but all mesmer players will feel like thieves always have a quickness utility or something like Sigil of Celerity.

    Yes every thief build except DE have access to quickness when fighting mesmer. But it is: 1) not garanteed to steal 2) not direct 3) can be interrupted on activation 4) lasts 2.5 sec 5) accessable only against mesmer. We can discuss Consume Plasma as a issue in thief vs mesmser fights but it has nothing to do with PD.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @fumcheg.1936 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    It's not even Repeater. It's that the build has way way way too much cycling stealth/disengage/sustain for the damage it pumps out. And most of that damage has nothing to do with Reapter. This build has more disengage that D/P, which is incredibly obnoxious considering the nature of the ranged attacks. It's P/D #3 that teleports the Thief backwards. <- This mixed with all of the other teleport effects is too much bounce man. Lately now that players are getting good on P/D, it's hard to secure kills against P/D even with a Berserker Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. As soon you even touch the Thief, he's gone like 2500+ range away from you and headed to the other side of the map.

    To much teleport, too much disengage, too much sustain. I don't even care about the damage. It's the reset factor that makes the damage feel OP.

    OMG where just where this stuff even comes from??? Here is current meta build for you https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-Core_P/D_Condition
    Just point out which of its traits and skills make it so exclusively teleportable and disegagable compared to DP meta build https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil
    -_Dagger/Pistol

    Players who are actually good on P/D are able to remarkably resemble the playstyle flow of a Rifle Deadeye. But there are a few differences:

    • The P/D's sustained pressure is A LOT higher than a DE.
    • The P/D can go at you through LOS due to stealth and then quickly disengage melee range with P/D #3.
    • The P/D can drop overwhelming 1v1 pressure with Thieves Guild and either instantly kill you or instantly drive you from a node if you want to survive. And even if a player is able to deal with the Thieves Guild, while he is allocating resources and focus to do that, it opens too strong of an opportunity for the P/D Thief's burst with absolutely no downside or vulnerability while going ham.
    • All of this for the small cost of a little less stealth uptime than an actual Deadeye.

    P/D is obnoxiously strong dude. Some builds may be able to "deal with it" but other builds are countered so hard by it that they completely lack the mechanics to be able to deal with P/D at all. So what you're looking at is that builds that can "deal with" P/D are like 60% win while fighting the 40% win of the P/D, but the P/D is still dangerous. But when the P/D is countering things that can't deal with him it's like 90% win on the P/D side and 10% survival rate of the class/build that can't deal with the P/D. The rock/paper/scissors of the P/D is incredibly imbalanced. He counters too hard against some things and doesn't get countered hard enough by others, and that's what it really amounts down to.

  • fumcheg.1936fumcheg.1936 Member ✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    It's not even Repeater. It's that the build has way way way too much cycling stealth/disengage/sustain for the damage it pumps out. And most of that damage has nothing to do with Reapter. This build has more disengage that D/P, which is incredibly obnoxious considering the nature of the ranged attacks. It's P/D #3 that teleports the Thief backwards. <- This mixed with all of the other teleport effects is too much bounce man. Lately now that players are getting good on P/D, it's hard to secure kills against P/D even with a Berserker Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. As soon you even touch the Thief, he's gone like 2500+ range away from you and headed to the other side of the map.

    To much teleport, too much disengage, too much sustain. I don't even care about the damage. It's the reset factor that makes the damage feel OP.

    OMG where just where this stuff even comes from??? Here is current meta build for you https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-Core_P/D_Condition
    Just point out which of its traits and skills make it so exclusively teleportable and disegagable compared to DP meta build https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil
    -_Dagger/Pistol

    Players who are actually good on P/D are able to remarkably resemble the playstyle flow of a Rifle Deadeye. But there are a few differences:

    • The P/D's sustained pressure is A LOT higher than a DE.
    • The P/D can go at you through LOS due to stealth and then quickly disengage melee range with P/D #3.
    • The P/D can drop overwhelming 1v1 pressure with Thieves Guild and either instantly kill you or instantly drive you from a node if you want to survive. And even if a player is able to deal with the Thieves Guild, while he is allocating resources and focus to do that, it opens too strong of an opportunity for the P/D Thief's burst with absolutely no downside or vulnerability while going ham.
    • All of this for the small cost of a little less stealth uptime than an actual Deadeye.

    P/D is obnoxiously strong dude. Some builds may be able to "deal with it" but other builds are countered so hard by it that they completely lack the mechanics to be able to deal with P/D at all. So what you're looking at is that builds that can "deal with" P/D are like 60% win while fighting the 40% win of the P/D, but the P/D is still dangerous. But when the P/D is countering things that can't deal with him it's like 90% win on the P/D side and 10% survival rate of the class/build that can't deal with the P/D. The rock/paper/scissors of the P/D is incredibly imbalanced. He counters too hard against some things and doesn't get countered hard enough by others, and that's what it really amounts down to.

    Ok, I can't see here even a slightest clarification on how PD thief has better disengage and return possiblities than DP you mentioned before. And why did you bring up this rifle DE? Rifle DE is nerfed to the ground nobody even plays this build. Everything you would compare with rifle DE is better.

    And another thing here, power bow soulbeast actually perfectly counters PD. So I guess I have some bad news for you.

  • Roche.7491Roche.7491 Member ✭✭

    It’s perfectly fine as it is. It is called an assassin for a reason.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    It's not even Repeater. It's that the build has way way way too much cycling stealth/disengage/sustain for the damage it pumps out. And most of that damage has nothing to do with Reapter. This build has more disengage that D/P, which is incredibly obnoxious considering the nature of the ranged attacks. It's P/D #3 that teleports the Thief backwards. <- This mixed with all of the other teleport effects is too much bounce man. Lately now that players are getting good on P/D, it's hard to secure kills against P/D even with a Berserker Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. As soon you even touch the Thief, he's gone like 2500+ range away from you and headed to the other side of the map.

    To much teleport, too much disengage, too much sustain. I don't even care about the damage. It's the reset factor that makes the damage feel OP.

    And that's not to mention some broken tactics that haven't become public yet, which people will eventually figure out if we get another 2v2. Imagine Thief venom share being coordinated over discord with Soulbeast stance share. Yes, the stance effects go onto the Thieves Guild NPCs - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vulture_Stance - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/One_Wolf_Pack

    600, range, teleport, from, melee, range. Add 1200 if they use Shadowstep teleport. Add in a shortbow 5 if they swap to let them have 2700 distance if they disengage the second they land Shadowstrike. This isn’t about Shadowstrike (which only works if you are in melee range of something) this is just standard thief disengage ability.

    I’d like to point out to @Crab Fear.1624 that changing Shadowstrike to a single Repeater flip (or reducing the duration the flip is available for that matter) is actually a buff. If people are using venom it will be used up on the first Repeater Combo with Shadowstrike. So the big damage burst is already there even with one Repeater as a limit.

    The big damage, as @Trevor Boyer.6524 pointed out, is the boosted damage from Guild and Venom shared, maybe with a Soulbeast or also pet/minion/clones that bring the damage potential up to a maximum 36 stacks of poison plus any bonuses other players apply to the Guild.

    Maybe focus on the Venom and Guild which seems to be what is actually important here.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    It's not even Repeater. It's that the build has way way way too much cycling stealth/disengage/sustain for the damage it pumps out. And most of that damage has nothing to do with Reapter. This build has more disengage that D/P, which is incredibly obnoxious considering the nature of the ranged attacks. It's P/D #3 that teleports the Thief backwards. <- This mixed with all of the other teleport effects is too much bounce man. Lately now that players are getting good on P/D, it's hard to secure kills against P/D even with a Berserker Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. As soon you even touch the Thief, he's gone like 2500+ range away from you and headed to the other side of the map.

    To much teleport, too much disengage, too much sustain. I don't even care about the damage. It's the reset factor that makes the damage feel OP.

    And that's not to mention some broken tactics that haven't become public yet, which people will eventually figure out if we get another 2v2. Imagine Thief venom share being coordinated over discord with Soulbeast stance share. Yes, the stance effects go onto the Thieves Guild NPCs - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vulture_Stance - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/One_Wolf_Pack

    600, range, teleport, from, melee, range. Add 1200 if they use Shadowstep teleport. Add in a shortbow 5 if they swap to let them have 2700 distance if they disengage the second they land Shadowstrike. This isn’t about Shadowstrike (which only works if you are in melee range of something) this is just standard thief disengage ability.

    I’d like to point out to @Crab Fear.1624 that changing Shadowstrike to a single Repeater flip (or reducing the duration the flip is available for that matter) is actually a buff. If people are using venom it will be used up on the first Repeater Combo with Shadowstrike. So the big damage burst is already there even with one Repeater as a limit.

    The big damage, as @Trevor Boyer.6524 pointed out, is the boosted damage from Guild and Venom shared, maybe with a Soulbeast or also pet/minion/clones that bring the damage potential up to a maximum 36 stacks of poison plus any bonuses other players apply to the Guild.

    Maybe focus on the Venom and Guild which seems to be what is actually important here.

    Yeah there are things that start happening with a 20s duration super summon like Thieves Guild, that people don't quite seem to be noticing.

    Once those things are summoned, there is 20s where they linger around gaining might stacks, fury, venom shares, stance shares, aura shares, ect ect.

    Those summons are powerful on their own. 20s for boon stacking on those things during a team fight is outrageously broken. You watch what happens during the next 2v2 season. Mark my words. Ranger pets & Thieves Guild will create instant KO situations. You're talking 6 effective opponents vs. 2 opponents who don't have AIs, and those 6 effective opponents are all sharing & benefitting mass buffing, both defensive and offensive.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Thing is pistol thief shouldn’t be a condition build. Remove bleeds entirely and nerf p/d 3 skill to the bottom of earth. Also rework thief’s guild to something with less thief’s and much lower duration. Idc if u make cd lower but thief’s guild lasting for 30 secs is insane and it should really only 2 thief’s at max, but according to logic I think 1 is enough

    Thing is, that’s been it’s design for nearly 8 years. And it’s a hybrid not a condition weapon.

    What is giving people burst condi here is venoms. A utility. Usually shared with Guild. I can do that on any weapon set. That’s what needs adjusting.

    You might as well have suggested removing damaging condi from the game. It isn’t helpful or realistic.

    Only thing hybrid about pistol is p/d. No it’s not venoms- cuz then s/d condition thief would be busted meta too, but I’ve tested it and it’s decent but balanced. It’s just lol, thief’s guild having a 30 sec duration with 3 thief’s also doesn’t really have a place in pvp

    I don’t see why you couldn’t use something like the old s/d build. P/D has always had more condi application but s/d was considered better due to the teleports through walls.

    Just port in, thieves guild (Pre-cast), venom, steal, port out, rinse and repeat.

    But that’s an issue with well played Sword in general. They are harder to pin and if they are chunking your HP it’s not a good place to be in...

    I have been using s/d p/p in a hybrid build using mostly grieving gear. If you get conditions on via the steal (IE with BA ) couple it with a venom then do a few unloads with p/p the added might spikes condition and power damage significantly. Deadly ambition and the venom can turn a number of builds into condition builds. Very INI intense. Must be in TR and DE for mali 7 > Mercy and or RFI handy as well. Swapping between the weapon sets is better then just sticking to one.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    Yes every thief build except DE have access to quickness when fighting mesmer.

    You wish: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal_Time

    But it is: 1) not garanteed to steal

    It's almost guaranteed, like 95%.

    2) not direct

    idk what this means.

    3) can be interrupted on activation

    It has a small animation, but ye I agree with this one.

    4) lasts 2.5 sec

    Improv OP but p/d doesn't use improv. Still, 2.5s per 25s or something is not that short, it's like 10% quickness uptime.

    5) accessable only against mesmer. We can discuss Consume Plasma as a issue in thief vs mesmser fights but it has nothing to do with PD.

    Well yeah it has less to do with PD and more to do with thieves in general.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    It's not even Repeater. It's that the build has way way way too much cycling stealth/disengage/sustain for the damage it pumps out. And most of that damage has nothing to do with Reapter. This build has more disengage that D/P, which is incredibly obnoxious considering the nature of the ranged attacks. It's P/D #3 that teleports the Thief backwards. <- This mixed with all of the other teleport effects is too much bounce man. Lately now that players are getting good on P/D, it's hard to secure kills against P/D even with a Berserker Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. As soon you even touch the Thief, he's gone like 2500+ range away from you and headed to the other side of the map.

    To much teleport, too much disengage, too much sustain. I don't even care about the damage. It's the reset factor that makes the damage feel OP.

    And that's not to mention some broken tactics that haven't become public yet, which people will eventually figure out if we get another 2v2. Imagine Thief venom share being coordinated over discord with Soulbeast stance share. Yes, the stance effects go onto the Thieves Guild NPCs - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vulture_Stance - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/One_Wolf_Pack

    600, range, teleport, from, melee, range. Add 1200 if they use Shadowstep teleport. Add in a shortbow 5 if they swap to let them have 2700 distance if they disengage the second they land Shadowstrike. This isn’t about Shadowstrike (which only works if you are in melee range of something) this is just standard thief disengage ability.

    I’d like to point out to @Crab Fear.1624 that changing Shadowstrike to a single Repeater flip (or reducing the duration the flip is available for that matter) is actually a buff. If people are using venom it will be used up on the first Repeater Combo with Shadowstrike. So the big damage burst is already there even with one Repeater as a limit.

    The big damage, as @Trevor Boyer.6524 pointed out, is the boosted damage from Guild and Venom shared, maybe with a Soulbeast or also pet/minion/clones that bring the damage potential up to a maximum 36 stacks of poison plus any bonuses other players apply to the Guild.

    Maybe focus on the Venom and Guild which seems to be what is actually important here.

    Yeah there are things that start happening with a 20s duration super summon like Thieves Guild, that people don't quite seem to be noticing.

    Once those things are summoned, there is 20s where they linger around gaining might stacks, fury, venom shares, stance shares, aura shares, ect ect.

    Those summons are powerful on their own. 20s for boon stacking on those things during a team fight is outrageously broken. You watch what happens during the next 2v2 season. Mark my words. Ranger pets & Thieves Guild will create instant KO situations. You're talking 6 effective opponents vs. 2 opponents who don't have AIs, and those 6 effective opponents are all sharing & benefitting mass buffing, both defensive and offensive.

    From what it seems to just be more "Let's pick what hasn't been nerfed yet" again.

    People could point out to you that if we nerf it'll be irrelevant again, but that's a moot point considering we aren't talking percentages here but a grand scale. It's about evening the odds and results of options since things don't have the same impact that they used to have. If everyone from the start had their effectiveness reduced overall in their class, we would have had better results already, because most of the things which are played right now overshadows skills that have been nerfed rather than being a different option.

    What we want is different options, not better options.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    Yes every thief build except DE have access to quickness when fighting mesmer.

    You wish: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal_Time

    But it is: 1) not garanteed to steal

    It's almost guaranteed, like 95%.

    2) not direct

    idk what this means.

    3) can be interrupted on activation

    It has a small animation, but ye I agree with this one.

    4) lasts 2.5 sec

    Improv OP but p/d doesn't use improv. Still, 2.5s per 25s or something is not that short, it's like 10% quickness uptime.

    5) accessable only against mesmer. We can discuss Consume Plasma as a issue in thief vs mesmser fights but it has nothing to do with PD.

    Well yeah it has less to do with PD and more to do with thieves in general.

    10% is probably right where it should be. Assuming we are talking in 30 second intervals, 10% is a total of 3 seconds. It’s not an outlier, other professions have more than 10% quickness uptime or have 10% with individual skills.

    Personally, quickness is either a big impact or is whiffed due to its short duration and how it makes more skills miss if someone dodges or blocks, etc. Obviously, someone running around with 50% uptime on quickness is not ok, but I wouldn’t say 10% is OP. More like...decent.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    10% is probably right where it should be. Assuming we are talking in 30 second intervals, 10% is a total of 3 seconds.

    It's actually 2.5 seconds per 17 seconds (swipe) with trickery, w/o improv. Which is like 15% uptime.

    It’s not an outlier, other professions have more than 10% quickness uptime or have 10% with individual skills.

    Who? I for sure don't have that much quickness.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @fumcheg.1936 said:
    Yes every thief build except DE have access to quickness when fighting mesmer.

    You wish: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal_Time

    3) can be interrupted on activation

    It has a small animation, but ye I agree with this one.

    Its 1 second cast time, and it has a very obvious animation (since no other skill uses the drinking a bottle animation consume plasma does). That being said, the thief is usually gonna LoS before casting it.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    10% is probably right where it should be. Assuming we are talking in 30 second intervals, 10% is a total of 3 seconds.

    It's actually 2.5 seconds per 17 seconds (swipe) with trickery, w/o improv. Which is like 15% uptime.

    It’s not an outlier, other professions have more than 10% quickness uptime or have 10% with individual skills.

    Who? I for sure don't have that much quickness.

    Reaper has 100% uptime in shroud. Mesmer could also get 10% uptime with Arcane Thievery while using Master of Manipulation (which is basically just core Mesmer).

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    10% is probably right where it should be. Assuming we are talking in 30 second intervals, 10% is a total of 3 seconds.

    It's actually 2.5 seconds per 17 seconds (swipe) with trickery, w/o improv. Which is like 15% uptime.

    It’s not an outlier, other professions have more than 10% quickness uptime or have 10% with individual skills.

    Who? I for sure don't have that much quickness.

    Ranger gets quickness from several abilities. Quickening is 10% and there’s WHaO for more quickness.

    There’s Elixir U for 6 seconds every 40.

    There’s a lot of others but getting a few seconds of quickness every 30-45 seconds is pretty common.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickness

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    10% is probably right where it should be. Assuming we are talking in 30 second intervals, 10% is a total of 3 seconds.

    It's actually 2.5 seconds per 17 seconds (swipe) with trickery, w/o improv. Which is like 15% uptime.

    It’s not an outlier, other professions have more than 10% quickness uptime or have 10% with individual skills.

    Who? I for sure don't have that much quickness.

    Reaper has 100% uptime in shroud. Mesmer could also get 10% uptime with Arcane Thievery while using Master of Manipulation (which is basically just core Mesmer).

    Right and Reaper because the skills are otherwise too slow to matter.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Reaper has 100% uptime in shroud.

    I think this is different, like "let's make every skill a bit slower than it should be and give it optional quickness so it's countered by corrupts"

    Mesmer could also get 10% uptime with Arcane Thievery while using Master of Manipulation (which is basically just core Mesmer).

    I don't think any build uses Arcane Thievery anymore. That core mesmer build in metabattle is useless.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Reaper has 100% uptime in shroud.

    I think this is different, like "let's make every skill a bit slower than it should be and give it optional quickness so it's countered by corrupts"

    Eh, that would imply they didnt want you to pick any other of the grandmasters. Thatd be bad design. Even though that is how it ends up.

    Mesmer could also get 10% uptime with Arcane Thievery while using Master of Manipulation (which is basically just core Mesmer).

    I don't think any build uses Arcane Thievery anymore. That core mesmer build in metabattle is useless.

    They dont, but its not like they couldnt. The option to have the quickness is there. Its just that the quickness really doesnt give you that much.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    stuff

    It's just anet being anet.

    Mesmer has decent quickness access with illusions line etc etc but I don't wanna compare mesmer with thief. I just want to show how good plasma is.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    stuff

    It's just anet being anet.

    Mesmer has decent quickness access with illusions line etc etc but I don't wanna compare mesmer with thief. I just want to show how good plasma is.

    Plasma is good, but Id argue Quickness is one of the least important boons on it.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Points being made about stealth access are outrageous.

    • No, P/D does not have spammable stealth, they get it from their heal when they are using shadow arts, and normally that is withdraw and on a 25 second cooldown, 20 traited with trickster.
    • The other stealth would come from hitting with CnD, and that is a melee attack that can be dodge, blinded, or blocked, and even plain kited.
    • They could steal blinding tuft from thief, but then again that is situational.
    • They could theoretically hit with CnD and then follow up with a heal for about 5-6 seconds of stealth combined.
    • But, again situational and probably logistically bad decision making.
    • So, SPAMMING stealth is very wrong.
    • They have the capability to use it often enough, if they can close gaps and make the CnD hits, they can steal into CnD, but again 20-25 second cooldowns for those combos.
    • Stealth for this build is not the defining element.

    Venoms have been nerfed, condi traits have been nerfed (deadly arts), daredevil lotus has been nerfed, serpents touch...ect...ect. So, the traits and venoms are not really the problem.

    Venom share is not a problem when you do it with other players, because that is a coordinated attack, and more times often you can't get a group of more than one or two to share the venoms with.

    So, it is possible that the venom share combined with thieves guild can be considered OP especially when the opponent is afk and lacking cleanse.

    But, Trevor thinks the thieves guild is OP. WRONG.

    Use a power build, let's say s/d, and use thieves guild against a worthy opponent. Report back at how awesome it is....(not).

    So, the interaction of venoms with the thieves guild can make it very effective in dishing out a big condi burst, but you can only venom share 1 time during that elite's duration, as they only last 30 seconds, and you have to cast venom after they are spawned to share it with them, and the venom cd is 30+ seconds so they will be gone before you can share again.

    That means that (ulti-combo) is on 180 second coolddown (3 minutes), and kiting, blocking, blinding will put it into the trash can.

    So, the real villians here are the inability to adapt and the ability to spam repeater.

    There is a crusade to get other parts of thief nerfed when they are not "currently" overperforming and it seems to be just out of hatred and wanted the class out of the meta.

    I showed in a video why this build is so easy.

    If you do not believe me, I challenge you to only use repeater 1 time after each shadow strike.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Reaper has 100% uptime in shroud.

    I think this is different, like "let's make every skill a bit slower than it should be and give it optional quickness so it's countered by corrupts"

    Mesmer could also get 10% uptime with Arcane Thievery while using Master of Manipulation (which is basically just core Mesmer).

    I don't think any build uses Arcane Thievery anymore. That core mesmer build in metabattle is useless.

    pretty much all mes use arcane thievery, or they should at least lol
    ironically the metabattle build, which is wrongly put, doesnt require arcane thievery. Its not useless though

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Koen.1327 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Reaper has 100% uptime in shroud.

    I think this is different, like "let's make every skill a bit slower than it should be and give it optional quickness so it's countered by corrupts"

    Mesmer could also get 10% uptime with Arcane Thievery while using Master of Manipulation (which is basically just core Mesmer).

    I don't think any build uses Arcane Thievery anymore. That core mesmer build in metabattle is useless.

    pretty much all mes use arcane thievery, or they should at least lol
    ironically the metabattle build, which is wrongly put, doesnt require arcane thievery. Its not useless though

    whats the point of arcane thievery for mesmer?
    quickness is useless, condi swap is no longer important since EM and inspiration is run, and If I wanted to remove boons I would go domi with shatter traits/CC rip.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For plasma debate, yes its broken, yes devs want it to be broken, no you cant interrupt it because its not worth it, they will cast it again couple of sec later and wasting CC + usually sword 3/blink or other skills is not worth it.

    People that think repeater or guild+venom share is the reason P/D is strong... just... no words for you people.
    The reason P/D is OP is due to no counterplay insane level of burst, instantly from stealth or long range, or both, all while having thief mobility ofc.

    As for stealth, yes P/D has many ways to get it, and yes it will get it when it needs it, there is just too many ways for thief to NOT get stealth.
    any smoke field from ally, when heal used, from utility, from stealing to thief, from CND.
    Any pet,illusion is potential stealth.
    every team has thief so no probs to get bundle there ( unless you suck and miss steal lul )

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Koen.1327 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Reaper has 100% uptime in shroud.

    I think this is different, like "let's make every skill a bit slower than it should be and give it optional quickness so it's countered by corrupts"

    Mesmer could also get 10% uptime with Arcane Thievery while using Master of Manipulation (which is basically just core Mesmer).

    I don't think any build uses Arcane Thievery anymore. That core mesmer build in metabattle is useless.

    pretty much all mes use arcane thievery, or they should at least lol
    ironically the metabattle build, which is wrongly put, doesnt require arcane thievery. Its not useless though

    whats the point of arcane thievery for mesmer?
    quickness is useless, condi swap is no longer important since EM and inspiration is run, and If I wanted to remove boons I would go domi with shatter traits/CC rip.

    its just on inspiration builds that you'd bail on arcane thievery, otherwise whats bad about applying 4 condis and gaining 4 boons
    not sure why you would debate on this, pretty much all mes use it

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I was try this p/d condi biuld. It useless and low powered .. Get win 6 time from 20 fights .. As for me it should be boosted 2-3x.
    They video is fake. Why ? - It maded by platinum skill player, who will can kill anyone whit any build.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.