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Thief Damage Numbers

Broady.2358Broady.2358 Member ✭✭
edited May 19, 2020 in PVP

Hi everyone! Due to COVID-19 keeping me in lockdown along with the PvP season ended I got bored and decided to do some number crunching on Thief backstab. Thief damage seems to be a regular hot topic on the forums so I thought I'd do my bit and gather some valuable information.

This test was done using the standard D/P Daredevil build using Berzerker Amulet and Rune of Divinity.
Power: 2278
Precision: 2,158
Ferocity: 978
Critical Hit Damage: 215.10%

Leeching Venoms (LV) grants +395 damage and Shadow Siphoning (SS) grands +540 damage regardless of armour.

All backstabs were done on Golums backs to get maximum damage. All Golums had 100% health to avoid any variables from Sigil of Exploitation. No enhancements, boons, auras or buffs were used. I did each test a total of 10 times to confirm the damage numbers were accurate.

Backstab Test
Light Golum

  • Critical Hit: 3,797
  • Normal Hit: 1,764
  • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4,732
  • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,699

Medium Golum

  • Critical Hit: 3,573
  • Normal Hit: 1,660
  • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4,508
  • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,595

Heavy Golum

  • Critical Hit: 3,195
  • Normal Hit: 1,484
  • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4130
  • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,419

These are the base numbers and can be dramatically be increased to make a more effective burst. These can include: Assassins Signet, Lead Attacks Trait, Executioner Trait, Scholar Runes, Boons, Auras and more which you might get simply from being a +1 into a fight from team members.
Bit of context, I am a Thief main and I think D/P is in a good spot in regards to damage I believe no class single handily should be able to burst someone down to 100% to 0%.

If this is well received I may look at doing an in depth test on Condi-Thief as we all know it is overperforming!

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the heavy golem is the same as the light

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    Why is light and heavy the same numbers and medium takes less dmg than heavy ?

  • Broady.2358Broady.2358 Member ✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    the heavy golem is the same as the light

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Why is light and heavy the same numbers and medium takes less dmg than heavy ?

    Fixed, sorry folks. I copied and pasted the format :/ the numbers are now accurate and correct.

  • fumcheg.1936fumcheg.1936 Member ✭✭

    No damage as expected

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Broady.2358 said:
    Hi everyone! Due to COVID-19 keeping me in lockdown along with the PvP season ended I got bored and decided to do some number crunching on Thief backstab. Thief damage seems to be a regular hot topic on the forums so I thought I'd do my bit and gather some valuable information.

    This test was done using the standard D/P Daredevil build using Berzerker Amulet and Rune of Divinity.
    Power: 2278
    Precision: 2,158
    Ferocity: 978
    Critical Hit Damage: 215.10%

    Leeching Venoms (LV) grants +395 damage and Shadow Siphoning (SS) grands +540 damage regardless of armour.

    All backstabs were done on Golums backs to get maximum damage. All Golums had 100% health to avoid any variables from Sigil of Exploitation. No enhancements, boons, auras or buffs were used. I did each test a total of 10 times to confirm the damage numbers were accurate.

    Backstab Test
    Light Golum

    • Critical Hit: 3,797
    • Normal Hit: 1,764
    • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4,732
    • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,699

    Medium Golum

    • Critical Hit: 3,573
    • Normal Hit: 1,660
    • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4,508
    • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,595

    Heavy Golum

    • Critical Hit: 3,195
    • Normal Hit: 1,484
    • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4130
    • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,419

    These are the base numbers and can be dramatically be increased to make a more effective burst. These can include: Assassins Signet, Lead Attacks Trait, Executioner Trait, Scholar Runes, Boons, Auras and more which you might get simply from being a +1 into a fight from team members.
    Bit of context, I am a Thief main and I think D/P is in a good spot in regards to damage I believe no class single handily should be able to burst someone down to 100% to 0%.

    If this is well received I may look at doing an in depth test on Condi-Thief as we all know it is overperforming!

    The only issue with this test is that it is somewhat unrealistic. Most opponents will often have some type of boon that reduces the damage. I mean when you really look at it. Rough math here. Say the average health pool is 17k with a crit and using 3,521(average of all your crit numbers) That is only 21% of health. Again this assumes no boons on opponent. If you are unlucky and don't hit a crit 1760 is only 10% of damage. In a realistic fight chances are your target will have some type of damage mitigation. For a skill that requires stealth and correct positioning I think it could use a slight buff.

    If someone has a more accurate health pool average I would be more than happy to redo the numbers

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    Most opponents will often have some type of boon that reduces the damage.

    Prot has a high priority and almost always gets ripped by steal, no?

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    Most opponents will often have some type of boon that reduces the damage.

    Prot has a high priority and almost always gets ripped by steal, no?

    Not 100% sure the priority to be honest. I am also not sure if boon application order affects the priority at all.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Broady.2358 said:
    Hi everyone! Due to COVID-19 keeping me in lockdown along with the PvP season ended I got bored and decided to do some number crunching on Thief backstab. Thief damage seems to be a regular hot topic on the forums so I thought I'd do my bit and gather some valuable information.

    This test was done using the standard D/P Daredevil build using Berzerker Amulet and Rune of Divinity.
    Power: 2278
    Precision: 2,158
    Ferocity: 978
    Critical Hit Damage: 215.10%

    Leeching Venoms (LV) grants +395 damage and Shadow Siphoning (SS) grands +540 damage regardless of armour.

    All backstabs were done on Golums backs to get maximum damage. All Golums had 100% health to avoid any variables from Sigil of Exploitation. No enhancements, boons, auras or buffs were used. I did each test a total of 10 times to confirm the damage numbers were accurate.

    Backstab Test
    Light Golum

    • Critical Hit: 3,797
    • Normal Hit: 1,764
    • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4,732
    • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,699

    Medium Golum

    • Critical Hit: 3,573
    • Normal Hit: 1,660
    • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4,508
    • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,595

    Heavy Golum

    • Critical Hit: 3,195
    • Normal Hit: 1,484
    • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4130
    • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,419

    These are the base numbers and can be dramatically be increased to make a more effective burst. These can include: Assassins Signet, Lead Attacks Trait, Executioner Trait, Scholar Runes, Boons, Auras and more which you might get simply from being a +1 into a fight from team members.
    Bit of context, I am a Thief main and I think D/P is in a good spot in regards to damage I believe no class single handily should be able to burst someone down to 100% to 0%.

    If this is well received I may look at doing an in depth test on Condi-Thief as we all know it is overperforming!

    The only issue with this test is that it is somewhat unrealistic. Most opponents will often have some type of boon that reduces the damage. I mean when you really look at it. Rough math here. Say the average health pool is 17k with a crit and using 3,521(average of all your crit numbers) That is only 21% of health. Again this assumes no boons on opponent. If you are unlucky and don't hit a crit 1760 is only 10% of damage. In a realistic fight chances are your target will have some type of damage mitigation. For a skill that requires stealth and correct positioning I think it could use a slight buff.

    If someone has a more accurate health pool average I would be more than happy to redo the numbers

    Increase damage by a good margin + Can't crit so you know it'll be quite effective without the RNG of doing either too much or not enough ?

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don’t think dp is in a good spot at all. It literally loses 1v1s to other thief builds, has worse mus and does less damage than other builds. Like dp in general is fine atm but I don’t think it’s worth paying huge amounts of attention to tbh. Only thing actually that makes it worth playing is the stealth, but that won’t carry stuff if you do no damage.

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Broady.2358 said:
    Hi everyone! Due to COVID-19 keeping me in lockdown along with the PvP season ended I got bored and decided to do some number crunching on Thief backstab. Thief damage seems to be a regular hot topic on the forums so I thought I'd do my bit and gather some valuable information.

    This test was done using the standard D/P Daredevil build using Berzerker Amulet and Rune of Divinity.
    Power: 2278
    Precision: 2,158
    Ferocity: 978
    Critical Hit Damage: 215.10%

    Leeching Venoms (LV) grants +395 damage and Shadow Siphoning (SS) grands +540 damage regardless of armour.

    All backstabs were done on Golums backs to get maximum damage. All Golums had 100% health to avoid any variables from Sigil of Exploitation. No enhancements, boons, auras or buffs were used. I did each test a total of 10 times to confirm the damage numbers were accurate.

    Backstab Test
    Light Golum

    • Critical Hit: 3,797
    • Normal Hit: 1,764
    • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4,732
    • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,699

    Medium Golum

    • Critical Hit: 3,573
    • Normal Hit: 1,660
    • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4,508
    • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,595

    Heavy Golum

    • Critical Hit: 3,195
    • Normal Hit: 1,484
    • Critical Hit w/ LV & SS: 4130
    • Normal Hit w/LV & SS: 2,419

    These are the base numbers and can be dramatically be increased to make a more effective burst. These can include: Assassins Signet, Lead Attacks Trait, Executioner Trait, Scholar Runes, Boons, Auras and more which you might get simply from being a +1 into a fight from team members.
    Bit of context, I am a Thief main and I think D/P is in a good spot in regards to damage I believe no class single handily should be able to burst someone down to 100% to 0%.

    If this is well received I may look at doing an in depth test on Condi-Thief as we all know it is overperforming!

    The only issue with this test is that it is somewhat unrealistic. Most opponents will often have some type of boon that reduces the damage. I mean when you really look at it. Rough math here. Say the average health pool is 17k with a crit and using 3,521(average of all your crit numbers) That is only 21% of health. Again this assumes no boons on opponent. If you are unlucky and don't hit a crit 1760 is only 10% of damage. In a realistic fight chances are your target will have some type of damage mitigation. For a skill that requires stealth and correct positioning I think it could use a slight buff.

    If someone has a more accurate health pool average I would be more than happy to redo the numbers

    Increase damage by a good margin + Can't crit so you know it'll be quite effective without the RNG of doing either too much or not enough ?

    That would be one way to go about it. Removing RNG isn't a bad thing to remove for a skill that has the requirement of positioning.

  • Markri.9475Markri.9475 Member ✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    Most opponents will often have some type of boon that reduces the damage.

    Prot has a high priority and almost always gets ripped by steal, no?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft
    Not sure if assuming steal is available everytime thief deals dmg as baseline is a good balance point.
    Regardless: The trait is what rips boons, it was recently nerfed to 2 boons. it steals prot third. aegis first stability second. Aegis isnt common, so in most cases it can get prot too.
    personally, ive been thinking if Thief could do with making some of their attacks do more damage to a full health, or "above 90%" target. Not enough to be enabling oneshots. It would give better openers on sustain heavy targets, or bunkers. But still would have less impact when coming to +1 a fight. Since targets then are rarely at 90-100%.

  • Broady.2358Broady.2358 Member ✭✭

    I have just tested what the damage numbers were with the combo Black Power > Heartseeker > Steal > Backstab on a Golum below 50% health.

    This gave me 9 stacks of Lead Attacks, 3 stacks of Might and 1 stack of Fury to increase my damage.
    This also slightly increased the damage of Shadow Siphon to 549 and Leeching Venoms to 398, meaning an additional damage of +947
    Note: I will include the additional damage in ()

    Light Golem the Critical Hit damage was: 4,518 (5,465)

    Medium Golem the Critical Hit damage was: 4,210 (5,157)

    Heavy Golem the Critical Hit damage was: 3,801 (4,748)

    Obviously these numbers can be increased or decreased depending on the situation. However, a Thief should be a +1 in a fight and bursting an already damaged target to give your team member the advantage. In regards to an opponent having the Protection boon active I would say that this combo strips 3 boons from Steal and Rending Shade. Combo this with an ally who has a boon strip and you have a devastating finisher. You could even use Sigil of Revocation for an additional boon strip! To make this even more deadly you can use Basilisk Venom to make Backstab unblockable.

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    The only issue with this test is that it is somewhat unrealistic. Most opponents will often have some type of boon that reduces the damage. I mean when you really look at it. Rough math here. Say the average health pool is 17k with a crit and using 3,521(average of all your crit numbers) That is only 21% of health. Again this assumes no boons on opponent. If you are unlucky and don't hit a crit 1760 is only 10% of damage. In a realistic fight chances are your target will have some type of damage mitigation. For a skill that requires stealth and correct positioning I think it could use a slight buff.

    If someone has a more accurate health pool average I would be more than happy to redo the numbers

    Going by this example of an average healthpool of 17k, lets say they are in a 1v1 and have 50% health. That means they have 8.5k left. A Thief coming to +1 the fight, in stealth, shadowsteps in and performs the combo to land an instant 5k ish damage. Leaving the opponent with only 3.5k remaining. Follow up with your team-mate with a Heartseeker and the enemy would have probably died or left the node. This is a job well done by the Thief.

    I will not dispute there are many factors at play which can affect these numbers such as toughness but going off the numbers I'd argue D/P Daredevil is in a good spot right now.

    Thanks all for talking about this :)

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Broady.2358 said:
    I have just tested what the damage numbers were with the combo Black Power > Heartseeker > Steal > Backstab on a Golum below 50% health.

    This gave me 9 stacks of Lead Attacks, 3 stacks of Might and 1 stack of Fury to increase my damage.
    This also slightly increased the damage of Shadow Siphon to 549 and Leeching Venoms to 398, meaning an additional damage of +947
    Note: I will include the additional damage in ()

    Light Golem the Critical Hit damage was: 4,518 (5,465)

    Medium Golem the Critical Hit damage was: 4,210 (5,157)

    Heavy Golem the Critical Hit damage was: 3,801 (4,748)

    Obviously these numbers can be increased or decreased depending on the situation. However, a Thief should be a +1 in a fight and bursting an already damaged target to give your team member the advantage. In regards to an opponent having the Protection boon active I would say that this combo strips 3 boons from Steal and Rending Shade. Combo this with an ally who has a boon strip and you have a devastating finisher. You could even use Sigil of Revocation for an additional boon strip! To make this even more deadly you can use Basilisk Venom to make Backstab unblockable.

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    The only issue with this test is that it is somewhat unrealistic. Most opponents will often have some type of boon that reduces the damage. I mean when you really look at it. Rough math here. Say the average health pool is 17k with a crit and using 3,521(average of all your crit numbers) That is only 21% of health. Again this assumes no boons on opponent. If you are unlucky and don't hit a crit 1760 is only 10% of damage. In a realistic fight chances are your target will have some type of damage mitigation. For a skill that requires stealth and correct positioning I think it could use a slight buff.

    If someone has a more accurate health pool average I would be more than happy to redo the numbers

    Going by this example of an average healthpool of 17k, lets say they are in a 1v1 and have 50% health. That means they have 8.5k left. A Thief coming to +1 the fight, in stealth, shadowsteps in and performs the combo to land an instant 5k ish damage. Leaving the opponent with only 3.5k remaining. Follow up with your team-mate with a Heartseeker and the enemy would have probably died or left the node. This is a job well done by the Thief.

    I will not dispute there are many factors at play which can affect these numbers such as toughness but going off the numbers I'd argue D/P Daredevil is in a good spot right now.

    Thanks all for talking about this :)

    I mean I dont disagree with that example or that D/P is in a good spot. But why be good when you can be great? There are a bunch of classes overperforming right now. Ill just wait with baited breath until the sustain balance patch.

  • Broady.2358Broady.2358 Member ✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    I mean I dont disagree with that example or that D/P is in a good spot. But why be good when you can be great? There are a bunch of classes overperforming right now. Ill just wait with baited breath until the sustain balance patch.

    I don't like power creep. Thats why I don't want D/P to be buffed. Once the over-performing classes get toned down then it will be great!

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Broady.2358 said:
    I have just tested what the damage numbers were with the combo Black Power > Heartseeker > Steal > Backstab on a Golum below 50% health.

    This gave me 9 stacks of Lead Attacks, 3 stacks of Might and 1 stack of Fury to increase my damage.
    This also slightly increased the damage of Shadow Siphon to 549 and Leeching Venoms to 398, meaning an additional damage of +947
    Note: I will include the additional damage in ()

    Light Golem the Critical Hit damage was: 4,518 (5,465)

    Medium Golem the Critical Hit damage was: 4,210 (5,157)

    Heavy Golem the Critical Hit damage was: 3,801 (4,748)

    Obviously these numbers can be increased or decreased depending on the situation. However, a Thief should be a +1 in a fight and bursting an already damaged target to give your team member the advantage. In regards to an opponent having the Protection boon active I would say that this combo strips 3 boons from Steal and Rending Shade. Combo this with an ally who has a boon strip and you have a devastating finisher. You could even use Sigil of Revocation for an additional boon strip! To make this even more deadly you can use Basilisk Venom to make Backstab unblockable.

    Youre not going to get that combo in a +1. Its much too slow and avoidable, the enemy will either dodge your backstab, or make it hit him in the front halving its damage. Thats why those damage numbers are effectively worthless, and we should look only at the numbers from OP.

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    The only issue with this test is that it is somewhat unrealistic. Most opponents will often have some type of boon that reduces the damage. I mean when you really look at it. Rough math here. Say the average health pool is 17k with a crit and using 3,521(average of all your crit numbers) That is only 21% of health. Again this assumes no boons on opponent. If you are unlucky and don't hit a crit 1760 is only 10% of damage. In a realistic fight chances are your target will have some type of damage mitigation. For a skill that requires stealth and correct positioning I think it could use a slight buff.

    If someone has a more accurate health pool average I would be more than happy to redo the numbers

    Going by this example of an average healthpool of 17k, lets say they are in a 1v1 and have 50% health. That means they have 8.5k left. A Thief coming to +1 the fight, in stealth, shadowsteps in and performs the combo to land an instant 5k ish damage. Leaving the opponent with only 3.5k remaining. Follow up with your team-mate with a Heartseeker and the enemy would have probably died or left the node. This is a job well done by the Thief.

    Again, the obvious part is that this combo wont land in a +1. What a thief is going to do is just raw backstab. Which will hit around 4k. Second, the average healthpool is quite a lot higher than 17k, and if your opponent is already at 50% when youre +1ing, it doesnt really matter what you do, theyre screwed anyway. Lets adjust the numbers. The lowest health of any meta spec I can see is Tempest with 17k. The highest is Necro with (ignoring shroud) around 30k. The average seems to be in the ballpark of 22k-26k. Lets say 24k. Now, lets adjust the damage back down to 4k. So when the enemy is at half health, and the thief arrives, he will still have 8k remaining on average. At that point they have the option of healing or defense, and the thieves damage options are extremely limited. In truth, this +1 usually will leave the enemy in a fine and healthy position, and the thief forced to run away.

    I will not dispute there are many factors at play which can affect these numbers such as toughness but going off the numbers I'd argue D/P Daredevil is in a good spot right now.

    Going off the numbers its clearly in a really bad spot. And yeah, that seems to line up with what we see, very little D/P thief around nowadays, its either condi thief or no thief at all (and Ive been seeing a surprising number of no thief at all lately). Not surprising, mobility is still great, but if you cant even +1 a sidenoder, why play thief over, idk, power Rev?

  • Markri.9475Markri.9475 Member ✭✭

    This D/P build is a Daredevil right?
    I don't see how you can assume to do a heartseeker + backstab combo surprise attack. Swipe is 600 range.
    And you doing the combo from stealth requires timing so that stealth ends just before heartseeker hits. Otherwise heartseeker breaks stealth and doesn't give backstab.
    Or are you using shadowstep to get the HS jump on them?
    The combo HS BS with swipe is more likely done once the battle has been joined.