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The "tiny balance" thread

So let me start by saying that this thread isn't meant like your usual "I think this build is op or underpowered", "we need to nerf condi thief" ect.
I feel like there are enough discussions about this level of balancing.
What I rather want to do with this thread, is discuss very specific small changes to single skills or traits, that need just that tiny bit more to be where it feels good, or just are a little bit to good.
So we aren't here to talk about meta shifting changes, but rather those nice quality of life small things, that would help out good or decent builds, or shave some outlier skill down a bit.
I wanted to make this thread to maybe help the devs find those minute details on certain builds or skills you only really feel if you play them (almost) exclusively.
So, let me start by giving two examples of what I had in mind. After that feel free to add your own very specific little changes and why you would like to see them.

1. Infusing Terror (reaper shroud 3)
In the last big balance update, like on a lot of other skills, the stab duration on this skill was reduced from 6 to 3 seconds. On first glance, you might think, ok that's fair.
But after a while of using it now one thing that really stuck out, is that you don't get long enough stab now to cover a full stomp anymore.
If you activate it directly after initiating the stomp, you just get ccd in the last ~0.5 second. And if you wait a bit at the start you are very easy to get interrupted in any group fight. Which from personal experience happens a lot. So you are kind of stuck in this awful situation of either getting constantly ccd at the start of a stomp or at the end (arguably worse,because more time wasted).
Maybe that was even intended by the devs, but if not, I feel like raising the duration of the stab by 0.5 seconds to a total of 3.5 seconds, would help a lot with stomping on a reaper.
Often enough you still get corrupted or ccd through the stab anyway in group fights with competent players, so I don't think I would be to strong to give reapers that little bit of quality of life.
Especially considering, while they are a "good" build in the current balance, they are far from meta compared to a bunch of other builds. You are very easy to spike in fights and charging in or stomping in aoes often just gets you killed. So you have to play fairly carefully to make proper use of the tools you have and be actually helpful to your team.

2. Soul Eater (Master tier trait in the reaper line)
While this trait is definitely a good trait , there is one small change I would like to see with it.
One part of the trait makes you heal for 5% of the damage you deal at close range (300 and less). So a bit more than melee range.
Now, the thing is though, that this part doesn't work in shroud. The time you are mostly that close to enemy players. I would like for that to change.
You might say now, "are you crazy, that would be way to good". But let me put it into numbers.
To gain 500 health from that trait you need to deal 10 000 damge in melee (because your are in shroud).
500 hp is less than basically any auto attack does.
500 is about the amount of health you get from Signet of Vampirism for getting hit just **once **, if you are using the Signets of Suffering trait, which also works in shroud.
500 hp you get in about 2 seconds just for being in shroud with the Unholy Sanctuary trait without doing anything for it.
You think now, 10 000 damage isn't that hard for a reaper to do in shroud and I do agree to an extend. But let's take it up to 100k for the whole match.
That's 5000 health you heal from that trait over a whole match.
Or Even at 200k damage (which would have to purely come from shroud) you would get about 10k health over a whole 10-15 minute game.
It would just be that little bit more sustain for reapers and I don't think it would make them overpowered or "impossible to kill" in any way.

So what are your small changes you feel like might get looked over in the balancing discussion, but you would like to see?

Comments

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is probably one of the most helpful threads I've seen in a long time and has very good reasons for small and not overpowered changes to improve a class.

  • duster.7013duster.7013 Member ✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    the two poison traits for thief obvs are tmwhat make it busted, but poison spam is something condi thief should have. Id rather just increase initiative cost to lower sustain condi pressure.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The less stability, the better, particularly on a lad who can easily inflict thousands of damage while shielding himself with a second health bar. The fact that you have to make a choice between effortlessly pressing 4 and scaring everyone off of a point or getting a secure stomp is a good thing. Having it all means nothing for playstyles and competition because nobody has to compromise. Just lean into Reaper's strengths and cleave downed targets while maybe an ally goes for the actual stomp.

    Soul Eater change isn't that big of deal, but you make it sound like Reaper has trouble inflicting ten thousand damage very quickly during any particular fight. The Reaper isn't really the best roaming class or 1v1 boi, so if he's going to be facerolling his keyboard, it's going to generally be in the midst of a teamfight. It's super easy to rack up thousands upon thousands of damage, if not on one enemy player, then definitely across multiple players simultaneously who are all contesting a point (also not counting any AI units like pets that might be nearby). Moreover, Reaper shroud doesn't last long in the first place, so it's not like it's a big deal that "you only get a short window in order to capitalize on this passive." The window was never long. I still don't REALLY see a huge issue with passive healing based on active damage while in reaper shroud, but it's still pretty cheesy and mostly unnecessary.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Let me see. Big Boomer should have its WvW healing in PvP, right now, even with the damage amp it provides, I cant think of much of a reason to pick it over Flashbang. I think Blast Shield is too passive of a trait, you pick it pretty much entirely for the vitality, because the barrier you get is rather pathetic. Id rather cut down a bit on the vitality and up the barrier to make it more of an active trait.

    And one thing Id consider would be a change to Grenadier to lower the grenade spread and make it more realistic to hit an enemy with every grenade. Id test it first though, in case the lower spread makes the weapon less usable as enemies can more easily avoid damage alltogether. Oh and make the Mine Radius on Streamlined kits bigger, 60 is so little that I dont think Ive ever seen an enemy get hit by it.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    tempest - trait swiftness back into a minor, buff transcendent tempest dmg
    berserker - savage instinct pve value of 2 sec, add fury to burst of aggression
    druid - CA cd to 10 sec, nerf druidic clarity and celestial shadow
    scourge - sand savant, remove cd increase
    dh - f3 to 50 sec cd
    scrapper - impact savant increase to 20% but make it 3 targets
    chrono - remove illusionary reversion req, buff well trait
    rev - salvation increase orb healing and radius

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    Soul Grasp projectiles on Focus are legit so slow that is possible for the vulnerability from the first one to fall off if you use both on a max range target to boost the damage on Ghastly Claws before/while you use it. I honestly don't care about this, but it still feels kinda stupid.

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭

    My one small suggestion:

    Move the swiftness from harmonious conduit to a minor trait and maybe give the trait a small buff.

    Tempest has a nasty trap where you can't effectively get both decent condi clear and decent swiftness uptime.

    Restoring the swiftness to the minor trait gives ele the freedom to run a cleansing water build without being incredibly slow.

  • GAB.9340GAB.9340 Member ✭✭

    Remove ramp up time for rev staff 5

  • @Swagg.9236 said:
    The less stability, the better, particularly on a lad who can easily inflict thousands of damage while shielding himself with a second health bar. The fact that you have to make a choice between effortlessly pressing 4 and scaring everyone off of a point or getting a secure stomp is a good thing. Having it all means nothing for playstyles and competition because nobody has to compromise. Just lean into Reaper's strengths and cleave downed targets while maybe an ally goes for the actual stomp.

    Soul Eater change isn't that big of deal, but you make it sound like Reaper has trouble inflicting ten thousand damage very quickly during any particular fight. The Reaper isn't really the best roaming class or 1v1 boi, so if he's going to be facerolling his keyboard, it's going to generally be in the midst of a teamfight. It's super easy to rack up thousands upon thousands of damage, if not on one enemy player, then definitely across multiple players simultaneously who are all contesting a point (also not counting any AI units like pets that might be nearby). Moreover, Reaper shroud doesn't last long in the first place, so it's not like it's a big deal that "you only get a short window in order to capitalize on this passive." The window was never long. I still don't REALLY see a huge issue with passive healing based on active damage while in reaper shroud, but it's still pretty cheesy and mostly unnecessary.

    You do seem a bit biased against reaper I must admit. What you don't seem to realize, is that this second health bar is the only "mitigation" necro gets. they don't have all the other ways of mitigation other classes get like all all the blocks on guardian paired with high amount of heals or all the dodges and stealth on thief or invulns on mesmer ect.
    I would take any of that in exchange for that second health bar, but it would destroy the flavour and uniqueness of the class sadly.

    That 0.5 second of stab more wouldn't change anything about that choice you have to make. It would be just enough to roughly cover the stomp duration. If you fear first and then start your stomp it still wouldn't last for the whole time you need for your stomp.

    i never said that those 10k damage are that hard to do. I even said I do agree. Sure, maybe I didn't word it the best way.
    But I used those 10k as a starting point to compare it to other traits that also work in shroud and provide the same health for way less effort/time. Given they are grandmasters and should be better, but they also go to show that there can be even better traits that work in shroud without it necessarily being broken.
    Furthermore I also talked about even 100k and 200k damage. And still over a whole match it wouldn't even be that massive, game breaking heal, but rather a bit like a small amount of regeneration you get from time to time.
    In no way would that change the fact how easily you are to spike down in team fights or how easily an overextension will just kill you. Also when we are talking about that damage dealt you have to consider, that you are in shroud for it and in melee range, which can be very tricky in group fights with a lot of aoe or even 1vs1s. There is a reason that reapers despite having that second health bar aren't considered node holders. they just can't stay on point all the time against several classes.
    It might be somewhat different with tanky core necro builds, but those we aren't talking about here

    @GAB.9340 said:
    Remove ramp up time for rev staff 5

    Personally i feel like it was a justified change, as before it would just come out so quickly, there wasn't any way of counterplay if you didn't just anticipate it. Especially considering that it can drag you along and do serveral ccs at once. You also still got the evade frames on it even at start up.
    But I can see that it would feel quite slow now, so maybe we can reduce the start up a bit? From like 0.640 seconds it is at now I think to like 0.5 or so?

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    reaper stab is def pretty dam short. if its gonna stay that way maybe knock off some cd.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Icewolfnector.1487 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    The less stability, the better, particularly on a lad who can easily inflict thousands of damage while shielding himself with a second health bar. The fact that you have to make a choice between effortlessly pressing 4 and scaring everyone off of a point or getting a secure stomp is a good thing. Having it all means nothing for playstyles and competition because nobody has to compromise. Just lean into Reaper's strengths and cleave downed targets while maybe an ally goes for the actual stomp.

    Soul Eater change isn't that big of deal, but you make it sound like Reaper has trouble inflicting ten thousand damage very quickly during any particular fight. The Reaper isn't really the best roaming class or 1v1 boi, so if he's going to be facerolling his keyboard, it's going to generally be in the midst of a teamfight. It's super easy to rack up thousands upon thousands of damage, if not on one enemy player, then definitely across multiple players simultaneously who are all contesting a point (also not counting any AI units like pets that might be nearby). Moreover, Reaper shroud doesn't last long in the first place, so it's not like it's a big deal that "you only get a short window in order to capitalize on this passive." The window was never long. I still don't REALLY see a huge issue with passive healing based on active damage while in reaper shroud, but it's still pretty cheesy and mostly unnecessary.

    You do seem a bit biased against reaper I must admit. What you don't seem to realize, is that this second health bar is the only "mitigation" necro gets. they don't have all the other ways of mitigation other classes get like all all the blocks on guardian paired with high amount of heals or all the dodges and stealth on thief or invulns on mesmer ect.
    I would take any of that in exchange for that second health bar, but it would destroy the flavour and uniqueness of the class sadly.

    That 0.5 second of stab more wouldn't change anything about that choice you have to make. It would be just enough to roughly cover the stomp duration. If you fear first and then start your stomp it still wouldn't last for the whole time you need for your stomp.

    i never said that those 10k damage are that hard to do. I even said I do agree. Sure, maybe I didn't word it the best way.
    But I used those 10k as a starting point to compare it to other traits that also work in shroud and provide the same health for way less effort/time. Given they are grandmasters and should be better, but they also go to show that there can be even better traits that work in shroud without it necessarily being broken.
    Furthermore I also talked about even 100k and 200k damage. And still over a whole match it wouldn't even be that massive, game breaking heal, but rather a bit like a small amount of regeneration you get from time to time.
    In no way would that change the fact how easily you are to spike down in team fights or how easily an overextension will just kill you. Also when we are talking about that damage dealt you have to consider, that you are in shroud for it and in melee range, which can be very tricky in group fights with a lot of aoe or even 1vs1s. There is a reason that reapers despite having that second health bar aren't considered node holders. they just can't stay on point all the time against several classes.
    It might be somewhat different with tanky core necro builds, but those we aren't talking about here

    I'm not biased against any particular class (except maybe Revenant because it's not really a class but rather a bad advertisement), but I am biased against insulating players from risk. Reaper shroud is already the time frame that says "OK, press literally every button you can; you're safe for a bit" and stability is the boon that anet put into the game because they couldn't stop saturating the gameplay with hard CC. It's not about reaper or any particular player, it's about a mindset which dictates that players don't deserve to have it easy with no more input than the press of a button.

  • @Swagg.9236 said:

    "OK, press literally every button you can; you're safe for a bit"

    If anyone is playing reaper with that mindset they won't get very far. Because it is far from that. As I said the substitute for all the mitigation mechanics all the other classes get. Way less save than mesmer or ele invulnerability or all the blocks guardian gets and so on. 2+ players can burn through that shroud health very very fast and if you get yourself condi bombed, they stay with you after you left shroud and you die anyway. It doesn't safe you either if you get yourself way out of position and overextend. Delaying your death by a few seconds doesn't really help much.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    reaper stab is def pretty dam short. if its gonna stay that way maybe knock off some cd.

    Personally I think the cd generally feels fine, I kind of understand that they don't want necro or it's elite specs to have too much stab or too often. I would just like that stab on the reaper 3 skill to be extended by 0.5 seconds.