"No Quarter" [Steel Warband disscussion] — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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"No Quarter" [Steel Warband disscussion]

EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭

So by the art we can probably expect Crecia versus Ryland. However, I will like to discuss what may happen to the other members of the steel warband in this story chapter considering this is a Civil War and it is probably expected the Steel Warband to be in it for this storyline.

We got introduced to each member in Epsiode 2.5 but this introduction sets up their character for the story and potential deaths as well.

So who do you think will die in this Epsiode, who may turn to our side, and who may remain with the Dominion?

From the trailer we see a member of the Steel Warband as World Map boss being Vishen Steelshot so it can be assumed she may die in No Quarter.

I suspect a few members may live to join Ryland after finally realizing the error he has made by siding with Bangar but the other half may ended up turning into Icebrood thus it ends up too late for them. I won't speculate which members since we only seen Vishen Steelshot in the trailer.

Comments

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    Its just a food chain afterall and the commander is at the top killing everything and everyone

  • Perihen the Thawk.9527Perihen the Thawk.9527 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    Well from the dialogue in the vision and the notes in the Footsteps collection I think it's safe to say that Nicabar is the most likely to defect and join the United Legions. Wonder if we'll see that in this episode. Or if we do, maybe he'll get killed for it.

  • camboyano.9675camboyano.9675 Member ✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    Well i dont think we kill any of the warband yet.

    In my opinion in this chapter or next Ryland kill Bagnar. Or he conspiracy with us to us kill him and can take the control of the new "faction". Why i think that? because in the episode 2.5 Ryland say ""Bangar likes to take risks, if I play my cards well ..." and i dont imagine Ryland as double agent.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't expect any Steel Warband deaths. Would be too soon. But I do expect they'll play a role, letting us see them as villains instead of allies, and that there may be a death involved in Episode 4.

    @camboyano.9675 said:
    In my opinion in this chapter or next Ryland kill Bagnar.

    Ryland killing Bangar is definitely not out of the question, but I think it's still too early to kill Bangar off. That sounds like either a mid-season event, or a penultimate boss fight/event for the season. We have 8 confirmed episodes via that_shaman, not counting "intermission" releases like Visions of the Past, so that would imply the fate of Bangar and/or Ryland will be closed in either Episodes 4, 7, or 8.

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  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I don't expect any Steel Warband deaths. Would be too soon. But I do expect they'll play a role, letting us see them as villains instead of allies, and that there may be a death involved in Episode 4.

    @camboyano.9675 said:
    In my opinion in this chapter or next Ryland kill Bagnar.

    Ryland killing Bangar is definitely not out of the question, but I think it's still too early to kill Bangar off. That sounds like either a mid-season event, or a penultimate boss fight/event for the season. We have 8 confirmed episodes via that_shaman, not counting "intermission" releases like Visions of the Past, so that would imply the fate of Bangar and/or Ryland will be closed in either Episodes 4, 7, or 8.

    I don't know considering antagonist characters that appear in World Map events tend to kick the bucket in the Story mission involved in the same map since the World Map event is the events where they survive then they finally die in the Main story mission side of things.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    I don't know considering antagonist characters that appear in World Map events tend to kick the bucket in the Story mission involved in the same map since the World Map event is the events where they survive then they finally die in the Main story mission side of things.

    Not quite universally, but we don't yet know the Steel Warband or any other major character is open world in this release, yet.

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  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    I doubt Bangar dies during the Charr civil war. We are likely to see him confront Jormag.

    weathering's everything

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bangar could also die and come back as undead icebrood.

  • Cinder is also seen alongside Ryland during the meeting with the legions.

  • Remember the Icebrood Saga announcement trailer? With the icebrood charr?

    I doubt we will kill Bangar soon. Firt he must become icebrood. Then we will kill him.

    That said, I don't care about the Steel Warband and if they had never been introduced there wouldn't have been any loss.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm hoping for something that feels significant, but more so in terms of the Jormag plot development. That seems unlikely given it's focused the war effort and Charr though. Somekind of new lore bomb. Ultimately I think this will just be the brunt of the Bangar plot line with MAYBE a continuation and finale next episode before we move the plot along to something else.

    I really don't see Bangar/Charr continuation throughout the whole season.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    Bangar probably dies due to underestimating jormag. The classical bad guy trying to tinker with great power that finally is his own demise.

  • Dondarrion.2748Dondarrion.2748 Member ✭✭✭

    Betting my money on Vishen sniping the heck out of us somewhere in the new civil war meta, gwaaaan! :D

    Northerner @ Dragon Season
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  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    Well the worst case happened....

    Everyone from Steel Warband is dead being killed off in the Meta event as the Final Bosses while Cinder dies in the Storyline and Ryland has fallen to the Dark Side to a point of no return due to Smodur's action of killing Cinder

    All I can say is...

    Darn it Smodur!

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    So about Charr being the strongest militarily...

  • TheOrlyFactor.8341TheOrlyFactor.8341 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Episode Three's story summarized in one video

    ( Srsly tho I enjoyed it )

    Asura fanatic.
    World's largest Zojja fan.
    You can't trust Charr. They belong to Bangar now.
    Make Dragon's Watch great again (by booting Rytlock out of it).
    The Kontract Krewe [RP]: Flailing around Tyria for gold and glory. Mostly gold though.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In the short time we talked a bit and a fight here or there, we rolfstomped the traitor army and are standing on Jormags doorstep.

    As expected.

    As if a Army of normal charr could stopp us by this point. HA!

    But seriosly, that must be a record time in winning a meta in canon.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I honestly found it pretty boring on my first play through. The map is pretty but it feels crazy dead...

    The end was kind of cool with some Game of Thrones vibes and the frost legion coming in from the bridge. Ultimately the whole story part just kind of feels like some major filler or they're just pacing the story muchhhh slower than they have previously.

    I mean, to summarize, what really happened? We spent the majority of the story just attempting to negotiate with Ryland, Smodur being a kitten, we get introduced to the Frost Legion which seemed like it was meant to be a shocker or something and then we're done? I don't know. I'm just not a big fan of this whole civil war plot in general so that might be why.

  • Why was Smodur being a major Bangarhead the whole release?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:
    Why was Smodur being a major Bangarhead the whole release?

    I think they are setting him and Malice up as villains, so they have excuses to kill off all remaining Imperators the game started with.
    Gaheron already died in Vanilla and now the other three have their turns.
    Maybe Arenanet has plans to make Crecia the Khan-Ur afterwards.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    Thanks! Now I know how

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    and then SPLAT they all dead
    Meh, they'll be back. We have Aurene and at least Cinders body. The question is do we or does Jormag have the bodies of the other 3.
  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Smodur and Bangar will join up, kick Ryland out, killing all Imperators along the way.
    Then we have Snarl and Galina take over as Imperators alongside Ryland, Crecia etc.

    I only speak the truth.
    Trust me, my dad works for Anet.

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  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    I'm far more interested in just how gutted the Charr are militarily now.

    A majority of Iron and Blood joined Bangar, after all.

    I also really liked the Seraph coming to help them - making a difference, and how they showed they could be versatile - Able to help both in the forest and the open ground. With magic and regulars.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I'm far more interested in just how gutted the Charr are militarily now.

    Yes! Lets strike them now! 😂

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Or there won't be a new Khan-Ur, and the status quo returns at the end of this.

    This is the outcome I'm expecting. Right now, it seems they're playing up the vacant position of Khan-Ur as the biggest wedge between the legions. They're all gunning for the position, but none of them are viable candidates (at least, not thus far). Bangar's gone off the rails, Smodur's homicidal, Malice hates them both and is untrustworthy, and it would be too soon for Efram to take up the role as Khan-Ur considering Flame's recent reunification, even if he is the most level-headed of the lot. I anticipate that they're eventually going to find the whole situation more trouble than it's worth; if the Charr's four legions could function just fine without a Khan-Ur before, there's no reason to need one and create more drama.

    That said, if a Khan-Ur is to be picked from the cast we have now, I think Crecia, Rytlock, or Ryland (if he is redeemed) are most likely to win approval, but I doubt Rytlock will be removed from Dragon's Watch on account of how popular he is with the players. That leaves Crecia and Ryland, and I'm pretty sure at least one of them is at risk of dying in the Saga...

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    So about Charr being the strongest militarily...

    Yeah, so given how people like to talk of humans as "a dying race" and the unrivaled charr might, can we start talking about the charr as a "dying race" with the same flimsy excuses that people speak of humans as a "dying race"?

    I bet that Ebonhawke is also feeling pretty good at this point. Treaty with charr achieved. Aurene cleaning the Brand. And now the charr are fracturing further and going on a crusade in the far north, turning themselves into both Jormag and Player Character fodder.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    So about Charr being the strongest militarily...

    Yeah, I was thinking that myself. Whatever boost they got from the Flame rejoining has now been undermined by apparently half their number joining Bangar. Now, that might be a case of them being evenly matched in this theatre, while the united legions still have the homeland locked down, but even so... taking into account that the legions in GW2's timeframe were always more of an alliance of separate nations than one nation, it seems quite likely now that if you combine Kryta, Ebonhawke, and Elona, the charr would find themselves quite clearly outmatched.

    (It is also interesting to note I think this is the first time we've actually had it specifically stated that the Seraph has it's own mesmer support. Although in practice I think they're just being used as a map mechanic - I don't think I've seen a Seraph mesmer actually fighting anywhere.)

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    (It is also interesting to note I think this is the first time we've actually had it specifically stated that the Seraph has it's own mesmer support. Although in practice I think they're just being used as a map mechanic - I don't think I've seen a Seraph mesmer actually fighting anywhere.)

    By Mesmer support they meant just Kas.

    She's the only one around lol.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
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  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I'm far more interested in just how gutted the Charr are militarily now.

    A majority of Iron and Blood joined Bangar, after all.

    Yes, and also talking about Iron Legion equipment not available, I think it's an Anet way of balancing the parts.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    (It is also interesting to note I think this is the first time we've actually had it specifically stated that the Seraph has it's own mesmer support. Although in practice I think they're just being used as a map mechanic - I don't think I've seen a Seraph mesmer actually fighting anywhere.)

    Fort Evennia, where mesmer portals are used left and right to evacuate freed prisoners.

    First time it's called out, but not the first time Seraph has used mesmer magic notably.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 28, 2020

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    So about Charr being the strongest militarily...

    Yeah, so given how people like to talk of humans as "a dying race" and the unrivaled charr might, can we start talking about the charr as a "dying race" with the same flimsy excuses that people speak of humans as a "dying race"?

    To be fair, humanity was considered a "dying race" because 2 of 5 nations got wiped out almost completely, and of the remaining 3, 1 was ruled by an undead despot, 1 was suffering from being pushed back to the walls by an invading army, and the third hasn't been heard from in 150 years. With the core game, the centaur leadership was killed and a peace treaty was brokered for Ascalon; with Season 3, Kryta is no longer pushed back to the walls by centaurs that were aided by White Mantle insurgents; and with Season 4, Elona is on the route of recovery from Joko's slaughterhouse influence.

    So while humanity was introduced as a "dying race" - more accurate to call them declining than dying - they're more or less stabilized as of Season 4 (not yet [re]growing though - maybe Ebonhawke is? Been a long time since we heard from them).

    The charr may be facing a civil war and will be losing a lot of numbers, but the charr was by far the strongest Tyrian (supercontinent) species so far. The charr homelands are untouched by this civil war due to the displacement, and while the united allied legions were losing initially, Drizzlewood Coast wouldn't have held the majority of charr military of any legion due to its placement on the other side of the Shiverpeaks from the homelands which the imperators would know never to leave unguarded.

    So, in theory, if we combine Kryta, Ebonhawke, and Elona, they might be on par to the charr post-Icebrood Saga.

    But if 1 legion = 1 human nation (without a wall), then even with a good proportion of all four legions joining and dying with Bangar, I wouldn't put them on par to all two and a half human nations we can contact.

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  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    So about Charr being the strongest militarily...

    Yeah, so given how people like to talk of humans as "a dying race" and the unrivaled charr might, can we start talking about the charr as a "dying race" with the same flimsy excuses that people speak of humans as a "dying race"?

    To be fair, humanity was considered a "dying race" because 2 of 5 nations got wiped out almost completely, and of the remaining 3, 1 was ruled by an undead despot, 1 was suffering from being pushed back to the walls by an invading army, and the third hasn't been heard from in 150 years. With the core game, the centaur leadership was killed and a peace treaty was brokered for Ascalon; with Season 3, Kryta is no longer pushed back to the walls by centaurs that were aided by White Mantle insurgents; and with Season 4, Elona is on the route of recovery from Joko's slaughterhouse influence.

    So while humanity was introduced as a "dying race" - more accurate to call them declining than dying - they're more or less stabilized as of Season 4 (not yet [re]growing though - maybe Ebonhawke is? Been a long time since we heard from them).

    The charr may be facing a civil war and will be losing a lot of numbers, but the charr was by far the strongest Tyrian (supercontinent) species so far. The charr homelands are untouched by this civil war due to the displacement, and while the united allied legions were losing initially, Drizzlewood Coast wouldn't have held the majority of charr military of any legion due to its placement on the other side of the Shiverpeaks from the homelands which the imperators would know never to leave unguarded.

    So, in theory, if we combine Kryta, Ebonhawke, and Elona, they might be on par to the charr post-Icebrood Saga.

    But if 1 legion = 1 human nation (without a wall), then even with a good proportion of all four legions joining and dying with Bangar, I wouldn't put them on par to all two and a half human nations we can contact.

    When Charr conquered Ascalon almost everyone had gathered under the Shaman Caste after gaining the power of the cataclysm cauldron, it must also be said that the Charr invaded Ascalon during the third Guild Wars for bloodstones, catching them unprepared and already weakened.
    Without these two factors the Charr would never have conquered Ascalon.
    I think Kryta is worth as much as the four united Charr legions and how the story has evolved is currently even stronger, given that Flame Legion is much weaker and without the support of the titans anymore.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    When Charr conquered Ascalon almost everyone had gathered under the Shaman Caste after gaining the power of the cataclysm cauldron, it must also be said that the Charr invaded Ascalon during the third Guild Wars for bloodstones, catching them unprepared and already weakened.
    Without these two factors the Charr would never have conquered Ascalon.
    I think Kryta is worth as much as the four united Charr legions and how the story has evolved is currently even stronger, given that Flame Legion is much weaker and without the support of the titans anymore.

    The only reason Ascalon had an advantage for 1,000 years was two things:

    1. Infighting among the charr after the death of the Khan-Ur
    2. the Great Northern Wall

    The charr were never interested in the Bloodstones btw, they wanted to conquer Ascalon again and their "gods" (the titans) instructed them to assault Kryta and Orr.

    The Searing was a decimating blow that certainly sped up their victory, but it was the reunification of the charr that was the ultimate call for victory.

    I would not equal Kryta - especially pre-Season 3 - to all four charr legions. They were barely able to hold back the centaurs, who even manage to make it to Divinity's Reach's gates at one point and were spread across the Krytan lands. The one Legion alone wouldn't have had such issue.

    As for the Flame Legion, despite being weaker than during GW1's era, they weren't the only issue the charr of Ascalon faced - until a year before GW2, humans were also a major focus of the charr, and then after there were Separatists+Renegades; there were branded, ogres, and most importantly, ghosts.

    The Foefire ghosts have been the charr of Ascalon's #1 issue for the past century - not Flame or Ebonhawke. This is why once the peace treaty with humans went through, Flame legion got decimated in CoF dungeon (story and explorable). Not only that, but Blood and Ash barely paid attention to any of those threats mentioned -though they gave assistance to Iron and pulled their own operations in Ascalon, they didn't ever put a full fledged effort into any issue the Ascalonian charr (namely Iron Legion) faced.

    All the "issues the charr faced" prior to Season 5 have been actually "issues the Iron Legion faced, and the other two legions kind of sort of assisted with". For reference: Blood and Ash only sent two Tribunes to assist in Ascalon (aka pre-Season 5) matters. All those troops we saw of Blood and Ash was about 2 out of 8-or-so Tribunes' troops. It's likely Iron had sent some Tribunes and troops to Blood and Ash territory too - and who knows what those territories have been up to; Blood had branded and Flame issues, but only a small portion of their territory, and we don't know where Ash territory is placed still.

    Besides all that, if we talk merely geographic territory, then Iron = Kryta for sure, since Ascalon is Iron territory alone, and Ascalon and Kryta are on par.

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  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:
    Why was Smodur being a major Bangarhead the whole release?

    Smodur overtly wants to be Khan-Ur, and he's willing to do whatever it takes to get him there. Including committing war crimes, executing his own people, and sabotaging anything we do to create a peaceful resolution. That was why he killed Cinder in front of Ryland; to destroy any further possibilities in that direction. As for what the future holds, I have a strong feeling Smodur will catch a bad case of dead before the Icebrood Saga ends, possibly as soon as next episode, and another strong feeling that it won't be the Commander doing the honors. We shall see.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Oh, and here's a possible spoiler for you: the first Icebrood Saga trailer, where Jormag is speaking to us and appears behind the advancing Icebrood army. There's an Icebrood Charr at the head of that army. Looking at it, it's not Bangar. Bangar has a unique appearance. It looks noticeably like Ryland. I'll just leave that thought where it lies for now.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    So while humanity was introduced as a "dying race" - more accurate to call them declining than dying - they're more or less stabilized as of Season 4 (not yet [re]growing though - maybe Ebonhawke is? Been a long time since we heard from them).

    Not sure if I would even call humans "declining" since so much seems to be about humans rebounding from their decline.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Besides all that, if we talk merely geographic territory, then Iron = Kryta for sure, since Ascalon is Iron territory alone, and Ascalon and Kryta are on par.

    But also chunks of what is considered Ascalon in-game was also part of Flame Legion territory, such as Fireheart Rise and bordering portions of Disseau Plateau and Iron Marches.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    (It is also interesting to note I think this is the first time we've actually had it specifically stated that the Seraph has it's own mesmer support. Although in practice I think they're just being used as a map mechanic - I don't think I've seen a Seraph mesmer actually fighting anywhere.)

    By Mesmer support they meant just Kas.

    She's the only one around lol.

    There are NPC mesmers holding portals open for convenience in some of the events. It's particularly noticeable in the Wolf's Crossing finale.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    (It is also interesting to note I think this is the first time we've actually had it specifically stated that the Seraph has it's own mesmer support. Although in practice I think they're just being used as a map mechanic - I don't think I've seen a Seraph mesmer actually fighting anywhere.)

    Fort Evennia, where mesmer portals are used left and right to evacuate freed prisoners.

    First time it's called out, but not the first time Seraph has used mesmer magic notably.

    Without it being called out, that could just have easily been Shining Blade.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But if 1 legion = 1 human nation (without a wall), then even with a good proportion of all four legions joining and dying with Bangar, I wouldn't put them on par to all two and a half human nations we can contact.

    I don't think this equivalence is accurate.

    It's worth keeping in mind that during the period in Sea of Sorrows, a surge of Krytan involvement in Ascalon was pushing the charr back. Using what was described at the time as human wave tactics. Right after what was probably the biggest disaster to strike Kryta, clearing out roughly half of its former territory including most of the larger settlements we saw in GW1. Now, these weren't sustainable in the long run, but it does suggest that Kryta could outmuscle whatever was in Ascalon at the time until the other legions could reinforce.

    Sure, Kryta was losing to centaurs at the start of the game, but...

    1) Assuming that one legion alone would have no issue dealing with the centaurs may be underselling the centaurs, but more importantly:

    2) Season 3 made it pretty clear that the centaurs only managed to achieve the level of success they did because of Caudecus' efforts to undermine Jennah, aiding the centaurs through a variety of means from general insurgency (under the cover of "bandit" activity) drawing resources away from the centaur conflict, revealing weaknesses in Krytan defensive positions, and outright bribing or otherwise subverting Seraph units to look the other way as centaur forces passed through, allowing them to appear in regions they weren't expected to far from where the front line was supposed to be. Without those factors... the Krytans, honestly seemed to consider the centaurs to be a bit of a joke. They didn't seem to be a significant factor in the novels (sure, northern Kryta wasn't the focus of either novel, but nobody seemed to be particularly concerned about them in Edge of Destiny at least, and they may have been part of Kryta's desire to make peace in GoA but if anything it seemed to be a less pressing concern than what the charr were facing at the time), while Caudecus seemed pretty confident that once he had Kryta under his control and stopped undermining Kryta's defences, he'd be able to drive the centaurs out in short order. So Kryta's problems seem to have been mostly caused by internal issues that have now been resolved. Now, there is the question of whether the damage Kryta took in the meantime is something they can just bounce back from... but the charr are now in their own crisis which probably will take them a while to bounce back from.

    Also, food for thought: The Pact does not seem to be officially a part of the charr civil war, yet the Pact Marshal is acting in the capacity of a Seraph commander.

  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    To be fair, humanity was considered a "dying race"

    For most invasive, highly destructive species this would be a thing to celebrate

    The Commander will end you.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    So while humanity was introduced as a "dying race" - more accurate to call them declining than dying - they're more or less stabilized as of Season 4 (not yet [re]growing though - maybe Ebonhawke is? Been a long time since we heard from them).

    Not sure if I would even call humans "declining" since so much seems to be about humans rebounding from their decline.

    GW2 was depicting a rebound, but between the two games (and during GW1 even), which initiated the whole "dying race", was definitely a decline.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Besides all that, if we talk merely geographic territory, then Iron = Kryta for sure, since Ascalon is Iron territory alone, and Ascalon and Kryta are on par.

    But also chunks of what is considered Ascalon in-game was also part of Flame Legion territory, such as Fireheart Rise and bordering portions of Disseau Plateau and Iron Marches.

    Tiny chunks, not even the whole of Fireheart Rise was Flame territory, and nothing else really is. Flame's made some recent headway due to Iron being distracted on all fronts, but they've been stuck to the mountains since the rebellion.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But if 1 legion = 1 human nation (without a wall), then even with a good proportion of all four legions joining and dying with Bangar, I wouldn't put them on par to all two and a half human nations we can contact.

    I don't think this equivalence is accurate.

    It's worth keeping in mind that during the period in Sea of Sorrows, a surge of Krytan involvement in Ascalon was pushing the charr back. Using what was described at the time as human wave tactics. Right after what was probably the biggest disaster to strike Kryta, clearing out roughly half of its former territory including most of the larger settlements we saw in GW1. Now, these weren't sustainable in the long run, but it does suggest that Kryta could outmuscle whatever was in Ascalon at the time until the other legions could reinforce.

    I'd say that just reinforces my statement. Because if Ascalon remnants + Kryta assistance > Iron, but Iron+Ash+Blood<Kryta+Ascalon, that supports the notion that 1 human nation = 1 charr legion, give or take.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Sure, Kryta was losing to centaurs at the start of the game, but...

    1) Assuming that one legion alone would have no issue dealing with the centaurs may be underselling the centaurs, but more importantly:

    2) Season 3 made it pretty clear that the centaurs only managed to achieve the level of success they did because of Caudecus' efforts to undermine Jennah, aiding the centaurs through a variety of means from general insurgency (under the cover of "bandit" activity) drawing resources away from the centaur conflict, revealing weaknesses in Krytan defensive positions, and outright bribing or otherwise subverting Seraph units to look the other way as centaur forces passed through, allowing them to appear in regions they weren't expected to far from where the front line was supposed to be. Without those factors... the Krytans, honestly seemed to consider the centaurs to be a bit of a joke. They didn't seem to be a significant factor in the novels (sure, northern Kryta wasn't the focus of either novel, but nobody seemed to be particularly concerned about them in Edge of Destiny at least, and they may have been part of Kryta's desire to make peace in GoA but if anything it seemed to be a less pressing concern than what the charr were facing at the time), while Caudecus seemed pretty confident that once he had Kryta under his control and stopped undermining Kryta's defences, he'd be able to drive the centaurs out in short order. So Kryta's problems seem to have been mostly caused by internal issues that have now been resolved. Now, there is the question of whether the damage Kryta took in the meantime is something they can just bounce back from... but the charr are now in their own crisis which probably will take them a while to bounce back from.

    1) Possibly, but given their technology levels and amount of magic used, I would say that all three centaur tribes working together would be necessary to face 1 single charr legion.

    2) True that the centaur gained a lot of benefit from Caudecus' efforts, but the fact that Kryta was divided only serves to decrease Kryta's standing prior to Season 3, which was my overall point. With the division, then Kryta was less than a full nation. I also wouldn't say that " the Krytans, honestly seemed to consider the centaurs to be a bit of a joke" - I mean, the hauty nobility of Kryta certainly does, but they also consider the Elder Dragons to be non-threats if not full out propaganda hearsay.

    As to them not being a threat in the novels - incorrect. The entire reason why Jennah and Logan met was because Jennah was making a personal appearance to form an alliance with Lion's Arch against the centaurs (this ended up not panning out as seen in Kessex Hills where the centaurs made a deal with Lion's Arch for LA's neutrality). If Jennah felt the need to make an alliance with a free city for assistance against the centaur issue, then it's clear that the centaurs were a significant issue to Kryta at the time.

    And using Caudecus' confidence in overpowering the centaurs is a poor argument - he was a clear racist and human supremacist who thought of the centaurs and charr both as mere beasts, who thought that he could overcome the issues of the Elder Dragons and didn't need alliances with non-humans outside of manipulating them to benefit his own goals to rise to power. Thing is, Flame Legion, Dredge, Inquest, Bangar, and other figures all act like this as well. They think their faction / species is the top dog, that any issue their people are facing is due to an anomalous weakling in leadership, and that the Elder Dragons are a non-threat to them but a threat to all others.

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  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    To be fair, humanity was considered a "dying race"

    For most invasive, highly destructive species this would be a thing to celebrate

    I think the Charr took that cake a thousand years before humans even popped up on Tyria.

    Matter of fact, if not for us and the Gods you wouldn't have Aurene and you'd all be very dead about now. You're welcome.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    To be fair, humanity was considered a "dying race"

    For most invasive, highly destructive species this would be a thing to celebrate

    I think the Charr took that cake a thousand years before humans even popped up on Tyria.

    Matter of fact, if not for us and the Gods you wouldn't have Aurene and you'd all be very dead about now. You're welcome.

    Well, hard to say. In theory, without the Forgotten and then humans, the charr could have kept spreading until they hit the coast. But we do know that the dwarves held them off for a while too. Depending on the state of the jotun at the time of circa 115 BE, it's possible norn+jotun+dwarves could have ended up filling the same role as humans. Tengu could have as well - they seemed to have been around long enough to be advanced and numerous enough in Kryta to hold them off - a tengu/centaur alliance could have done something.

    So I wouldn't outright say "without the invasive expansion of humans, the invasive expansion of charr would have been unstoppable". After all, the humans that stopped the charr were stopped as well.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Let's be realistic here, Ebonhawke at this stage is practically a de facto extension of Kryta, even if both sides maintain a polite fiction otherwise, and if Kryta was able to push the lines back (away from the fortification) with bad tactics, that suggests that it wasn't a matter of Kryta+Ebonhawke > Iron Legion, that suggests it was Kryta + Ebonhawke >>> Iron Legion. Maybe they're less than two legions, but I think there's more to it than "equivalent to one legion, give or take".

    We don't really have any firm grasp on the numbers of the centaurs. However, their magic seems to be on a similar level to the Flame Legion, albeit using a different element. Their technology is cruder than the modern human and charr standard, probably being at about the level charr were in GW1. They don't seem to be lacking in numbers, and it's probably reasonable to guesstimate that the average centaur can match the average charr (they seem to be at a similar level of militarisation), and the centaurs have a similar usage of war beasts to the charr (albeit with different beasts). The most direct analogue would be the Flame Legion, and I think with equal numbers of forces, the centaurs are at least not clearly inferior to the Flame Legion. (Or, for that matter, Blood or Ash. Iron is a little harder to judge due to having very different capabilities, but in-game, Iron war engines don't seem to be that much better than catapults and centaur war beasts.

    And we're talking about the entire centaur race here. To suggest that the entire centaur race can't even match one legion is to suggest that the entire centaur population is less than a quarter of the charr population. Which is possible, but I consider it unlikely.

    Regarding Caudecus - sure, he may be delusional, but I think it's telling that the centaurs didn't start having any real success until he started undermining Kryta's defences. He may have overestimated his ability to put the proverbial cork back into the bottle, to be sure, but it does seem to be that they were essentially an annoyance before. Similar to how the charr were viewed during the Guild Wars.

    And, to return to the original question of whether the appellation of "the most powerful war machine in Tyria" will still apply post-civil-war:

    Unless the charr come out of this with a Khan-Ur, they're still going to be a group of four allied nations, not a single nation. So if they can lay claim to the title collectively... so, potentially, can other alliances.

    Now, consider the roles Kasmeer and Logan - who are now acting as representatives of Queen Jennah - played in Path of Fire and Season 3. While the final political situation in Elona is still to be decided, odds are pretty good that there's going to be some form of Kryta-Elona alliance at the end of it. While Rytlock may have been right that Joko's forces would have been in for "a world of hurt" if they took on the Legions... that was before the Legions started tearing each other apart in a new civil war, and Elona still seems to have a fairly strong military despite the damage done by Balthazar and Kralkatorrik. A Kryta-Elona axis in a couple of years' time might well turn out to have more military muscle than whatever is left of the charr war machine when the Icebrood Saga finishes.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Let's be realistic here, Ebonhawke at this stage is practically a de facto extension of Kryta, even if both sides maintain a polite fiction otherwise, and if Kryta was able to push the lines back (away from the fortification) with bad tactics, that suggests that it wasn't a matter of Kryta+Ebonhawke > Iron Legion, that suggests it was Kryta + Ebonhawke >>> Iron Legion. Maybe they're less than two legions, but I think there's more to it than "equivalent to one legion, give or take".

    I disagree. Keep in mind that at the time, the Iron Legion still had the Foefire ghosts to contend with. And with the exception of the rebellion against the Flame Legion, the ghosts always seem to be the priority with Ebonhawke an afterthought - similar to how norn were an afterthought while the charr were focused on infighting and clashing with humans for a millennia.

    In addition, depending on when this push-back exactly was, it was established that shortly after the charr rebellion, the three allied legions turned on each other for a time - and this was what allowed the Flame Legion to survive in the Blazeridge Mountains. The rebellion happened in 1116 AE and Zhaitan awoke in 1219 AE. We don't know how long this infighting lasted, but that definitely would have been a good time for Kryta's assistance to push against the charr.

    And while Ebonhawke is "practically a de facto extension of Kryta" now, prior to the asura gate being fixed in 1320 AE, that's much harder to say. We don't know how long Jennah has been given the title "Regent of Ascalon" nor do we know if her father or grandparents, etc. were given such a time. Though Prince Edair did spend time in Ascalon fighting the charr, nothing actively says King Beade had say over Ebonhawke politics (and indeed, Jennah doesn't seem to either - the people of Ebonhawke only begrudgingly allows the Fallen Angels in there after all).

    And we're talking about the entire centaur race here. To suggest that the entire centaur race can't even match one legion is to suggest that the entire centaur population is less than a quarter of the charr population. Which is possible, but I consider it unlikely.

    I consider it very likely. The entire purpose of the current state of the Centaur War is because the centaurs have no land. Thanks to humans extending further north due to Zhaitan, and Jormag pushing the Modniir out of the Shiverpeaks and the drying of the Maguuma Wastes forcing the Harathi out of there (leaving only the two - now one - known Maguuma villages; too few resources to support the entire Harathi), the centaurs are literally fighting to survive. There's likely a reason we don't see any evidence of centaurs in Drizzlewood Coast, and if we look at the space between there and Harathi Hinterlands, there's not that much space for a large population of centaurs.

    Not saying that the centaurs are incapable of moving north to Drizzlewood, just that if they had the numbers of a single High Legion, the three largest tribes wouldn't all be able to fit in the 2-ish zone space between Harathi Hinterlands and Drizzlewood Coast.

    Regarding Caudecus - sure, he may be delusional, but I think it's telling that the centaurs didn't start having any real success until he started undermining Kryta's defences.

    Can we really say that they had no "real success" until Caudecus though? I mean, keeping in mind that the centaurs only united ~50 years prior to the game (so, roughly 1275 AE), other than the fact Jennah reached to Lion's Arch for an alliance against the war with centaurs, we don't have anything about the war's state one way or another. And Harathi Hinterlands seems to have been under centaur control for quite some time.

    And, to return to the original question of whether the appellation of "the most powerful war machine in Tyria" will still apply post-civil-war:

    Unless the charr come out of this with a Khan-Ur, they're still going to be a group of four allied nations, not a single nation. So if they can lay claim to the title collectively... so, potentially, can other alliances.

    True, and pretty much what I was establishing from the get go - I was arguing the state of collective nations for a singular race, and not individual nation-states. Prior to Path of Fire, all the humans had - what made them a "dying race" (or declining, I prefer) - was the isolation of Cantha, destruction of Orr and Ascalon, and conquest of Elona by an undead despot. These four acts had placed the charr as the top dog.

    Though I'd argue the game-changer was more the White Mantle's destruction, Joko's death, and the reorganization of Elona, as much as the charr civil war is. Humanity has been on an uphill since GW2 started, but on a large downhill slope between 1070 and 1320, while charr were static and are now declining - how much of a decline is yet to be said.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The pushback I'm referring to was under Prince Edair, so we have the date... importantly, not during or immediately after the rebellion. And at a time within a generation of Kryta having just received probably it's biggest single disaster in history. Yes, the charr have ghosts and Flame Legion to deal with, but the Krytans weren't exactly sitting pretty at the time either.

    Having no land is something that's relative to their population - the centaurs are being aggressive because they don't have enough land to sustain their population without raiding. It's also worth noting that centaurs seem to be at least as omnivorous as humans ("They're after out land and crops, not our beer"), while charr are more towards the carnivorous end. This is important when it comes to judging the amount of population that a given piece of land can sustain - it can be as much as an order of magnitude difference. The Iron Legion population is probably a lot smaller than the population of human Ascalon, and this can be seen in the Iron Legion having one major city (the Black Citadel) while Ascalon during the Guild Wars had at least five (Ascalon City, Rin, Surmia, Nolani, Drascir).

    I think we can say that the centaurs didn't have any real success until Caudecus started engaging in sabotage. Dialogue in the maps gives the impression that the centaurs pushing into Gendarran or even taking over formerly Krytan territory in Harathi Hinterlands was relatively recent - Nightguard Beach, for instance, seems to have still been receiving refugees relatively recently, and while that could just be escaped slaves, it does seem to imply that human settlements in the area only fell relatively recently.

    You're right in that humans going on the upswing is also a significant factor, but if the charr have split down the middle, that's also a significant factor.