Keep seeing remove downed state.... — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Keep seeing remove downed state....

Luclinraider.2317Luclinraider.2317 Member ✭✭
edited May 20, 2020 in PVP

I see new posts on this every week.

I see the most wanted ranked mode for next season is 2v2 and 3v3 arenas.....without downed state.

I've never seen a community so vocal about wanting the downed state removed (from WvW and PvP), just to have the company behind the game be so prideful about their failed system that they would rather kill off their own PvP scene (which they did years ago, primarily due to downed state), than have their well made combat system run with the big boys.

I play like...every MMO out there. Runescape, FF14, WoW, WoW Classic, GW2, EQ2, EQ1 Private Servers, CoH, DAoC Private Servers, BDO....and I honestly feel like GW2 and BDO have the best combat out there...(Very different combat). GW2 has a big awesome world to explore, story lines, voice acting, decent visual, no gear tradmill, achievements to get if you want (Legends)....it's just such a great MMO, and has the potential to have a PvP scene up there with WoW Arena...if they would just do it right.

I have at least nine friends who I play other MMO's with who have flat out said, they enjoyed GW2, but quit because of the downed system as it ruins PvP. And even when I try to get them to give it another try they flat out say "As long as downed state is in PvP I will never play GW2 again".

Now sure...this is just nine people I know...but I'm sure there are hundreds, thousands....maybe even hundreds of thousands of people who feel similar.

Combine that with the obvious cry for its removal from the current player base...and I just can't see why Anet still insists on keeping it.

They run WvW weekends without it, and they run arena without it...so the attempt at "It's built into the game and won't work without it", doesn't fly.

I'm also very aware there are some people who love the downed state in PvP....it just seem's like its a very small portion compared to those who hate it.

I mean...show me one other successful and well known PvP MMORPG that has been able to implement a downed state in a competitive PvP format? It can't be done because in an MMORPG setting it forgives all your mistakes...thus making a competitive aspect pointless.

Comments

  • @Drennon.7190 said:
    Even though BDO has P2W elements, I find it much more enjoyable. Occasionally I take a break and try GW2 again and after 1 season, it’s enough for me to return to BDO.

    Downstate doesn’t make landing kills feel good. At any moment, some potato on your team can rally anyone you down and your kill was meaningless. At least in other games, your kill means something.

    This exactly. It's far too forgiving for any competitive scene.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:

    @Drennon.7190 said:
    Even though BDO has P2W elements, I find it much more enjoyable. Occasionally I take a break and try GW2 again and after 1 season, it’s enough for me to return to BDO.

    Downstate doesn’t make landing kills feel good. At any moment, some potato on your team can rally anyone you down and your kill was meaningless. At least in other games, your kill means something.

    This exactly. It's far too forgiving for any competitive scene.

    Carry wars 2, it won't be changing anytime soon.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    No downstate = Core PU mesmer best class

  • From a wvw perspective, the only thing I saw different form the no downstate week was more hit-and-run cheese across all classes and groups less likely to engage. It didn't create any more or less skilled gameplay or depth, just a steeper snowball effect. The real outcry from it is how someone can out of nowhere rally by a killed player they never knew they hit and in wvw that's real easy to happen. Although it could be a different story in conquest worth experimenting considering the limited map size, objectives, time, and players.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭

    Probably because it would take a complete rework of everything or Instead of the times i rush in the middle of a group fight and spam my aoe and down 2 or even 3 sometimes they would be dead. Never mind the ranger that would kill you surrounded by 2 teamates from 1500 rng or the teef that would just go for 1 shot combos or mez or anything. It would be terrible since it was built with downstate included. Just removing it would be so bad imo as smarter players then I would abuse the eff out of it

    WvW bandwagoners have small D's and never left their house even before Covid19

  • aelska.4609aelska.4609 Member ✭✭✭

    Best part is how easily fixable it is without even needing to remove it. Because it affects all the players no matter their classes, they can make changes without testing them; hence relying on players' feedback.

    Minimum would be, imo:

    • 1 kill 1 rally, within range (600 ?) ... or no rally at all
    • Limited range rezzing skills with visible animation ... or no rezzing skills at all
    • Faster finishers
    • Revive speed should not scale linearly with the number of players (doubled at most with 3 players reviving ?)

    Next move could be:

    • No skill recharge when downstate
    • Debuff when revived
    • Downstate skills balanced between classes

    Tada. Team that managed to make a downstate "does not need much" to actually finish the fight, while a coordinated team would still have a nice advantage upon successfulling reviving an ally.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I want a game mode where there's nothing but downstate.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:
    I want a game mode where there's nothing but downstate.

    Then necro wins maybe ranger but the best solution would be everyone gets the same downstate abilities. Remove skills that instantly revive/finish or speed up rezzing as a start

    WvW bandwagoners have small D's and never left their house even before Covid19

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    Please keep downed state. I do think that maybe having the WvW system of only 1 rally per defeat would be a step in the right direction. Also, @Jilora.9524 is correct in that cheesy feeling revive skills need to go. They are fun in PvE but I'd gladly sacrifice that for a more fair sPvP mode.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    At the very least a lot of rez abilities could use a bit more of a nerf, and certain classes like necro/ranger that are almost just as hard to kill in down state because how much they heal for. I tried downing a ranger the other day and I swear I was dazed/knocked down/cc'd somehow three or 4 times, and by the time I got back on my feet the pet had already rezzed them. The pet rez is wayyyy too strong, especially combined with cc. Necros can be pretty intense too, but they are really only OP if you're close to death or in down state as well.

    There's a drastic difference in balance between Rangers and Necros and the rest of the downstate abilities. The only thing that comes even close is Mesmer if you're running power and just happen to get lucky with skill 3. Warrior can be frustrating but at least you know that 9 times out of 10 they're keel over with you.

    I think the biggest problem right now is just that the cleave isn't strong enough or damage isn't fast enough, generally, to go up against a guardian running shelter on rez, a necro well, or some other trait that prevents you from damaging them for a certain window. And honestly the guardian shelter trait doesn't seem to be taken that frequently.

  • ScottBroChill.3254ScottBroChill.3254 Member ✭✭✭

    downstate promotes tank meta. Also its just annoying. In call of duty it works due to the ttk. But in this game, the rezzing power is more times than not more powerful than an enemies ability to cleave. It really should be balanced to a point where you can cleave a downed player easily with a no damage healing build. Rezzing a player should be the result of lack of opposition or because of taking ressurection skills, but the whole rez if your enemy dies is bad. it makes too many things one sided. If I have a player on my team downed, and they also do on the same point, if I kill the enemy downed then that should not rez my teammate. I should have to take the time to rez him with F.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drennon.7190 said:
    Even though BDO has P2W elements, I find it much more enjoyable. Occasionally I take a break and try GW2 again and after 1 season, it’s enough for me to return to BDO.

    Downstate doesn’t make landing kills feel good. At any moment, some potato on your team can rally anyone you down and your kill was meaningless. At least in other games, your kill means something.

    But what if it's a sweet potato? What then?

  • @Luclinraider.2317 said:
    I'm also very aware there are some people who love the downed state in PvP....it just seem's like its a very small portion compared to those who hate it.

    People who don't like something are always more vocal than people who like that same thing. Just cuz you see a lot of people on the forum complaining about it doesn't mean that's the majority. Downed state needs a balance pass for sure, but as a mechanic it's completely fine, the only argument against it I ever see is that it "makes a kill not mean anything" when in fact you didn't kill anything in the first place. Start factoring in downed state in your strategies instead of ignoring it and pretending your kill was stolen.

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Downstate is good. Especially since there are no healers and "real rezzing" like in other MMORPG. The problem is rallying. Especially in the 5 vs. 5 or more (in WvW there are even more). Especially annoying if minutes later a far away enemy gets killed and you can't even see him anymore ... and suddenly you rally. Imaging your enemies/allies nearby that fought (and weren't able to kill/rezz you) ... must be funny to see you suddenly rally. :D

    Also more than 1 guy rallying (literally the whole team can rally from just 1 downed enemy) is "fun".

    I can see the thing where it is small scaled and where you'd have to CC an enemy from rezzing his team mate ... stuff like that. Fun with and without rallying.
    But with rallying my limit would be 3 vs. 3. There it realistically is possible with 1 down on both teams ... to try getting up your own guy while keeping the enemy busy from getting rezzed is guy - or just killing another of the 2 remaining enemies (make him downed and then kill one of the 2 downed) to get your own guy rallied.

  • Finish them or simply GO OVER THERE. Just burn em and break los. Or just walk off. Literally anything but insisting on staying on top of them, especially fighting others.

  • Downstate is a fine mechanic imo.

    The problem with it is they just ultra nerfed damage so downing people actually takes all of your resources, then you cant pressure bodies while everything you have is on cooldown.
    Nerf revives and revive mechanics and I think were fine.
    Also the community has been calling out for this? Come on it's been like 2 threads

    I can see why people wouldn't like the mechanic but I think it's a mindset thing.

  • choovanski.5462choovanski.5462 Member ✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Without downstate the skillcap would be way too low. You wouldn't have to start ress instantly or save your CC/boon removal to stop ress for downed enemies.

    Non-supports would just run round and round without paying any attention to healthbar. Downstate is actually fun as YOU get to decide at your last moments where you want to go down (Most of the time on Node with this balance), hardly anyone elses fault you don't see that your death is coming. Read the map better.

    In WvW 1 death only rallies 1 player though, so they could look into implemeting that to PvP so 1 bad player wouldn't save multiple downstate enemies. This would also reduce snowballing because often the winner of a teamfight would have 1 or 2 players less on a map.

    have to agree, we need 1-1 rally in spvp. downstate isnt the issue, its a good mechanic that adds depth.

    It's coming for me through the trees
    Help me someone
    Help me please
    Take my shoes off and throw them in the lake

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    No downstate = Core PU mesmer best class

    bird auto dmg>entire PU mes burst
    kekW

  • xWiroo.3841xWiroo.3841 Member ✭✭

    there should be a downstate but waaaaay less effective, with actual debuffs and penalties, with less skills and lesser heal from rally

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    Downstate feels bad because it's only balanced in a pure premade vs premade environment which is 1% of the game(if even that). You're already punished for your teammate being worse than the enemy and losing to them, being DOUBLE punished by your kill being denied from a rally feels absolutely horrible.

    I don't care if my team sucks, or if who I'm fighting with is bad at the game, I can still go find my own fun by killing other people on my own. However, when my own fun is ruined by my teammate dying, where I can't even kill people because my teammates being bad REVIVES the enemy, it's incredibly frustrating.

    Basically, downed state is just a really anti-casual PvP/unorganized PvP mechanic and why people are so against it's existence. It makes the PvP the majority of players experience feel really bad.

  • It really is weird seeing all of these people who keep dying to downstate. Like, do you just stand there and let them kill you? No cc? No running out of range or breaking LOS? No CC to prevent ress? Doing just about anything they have keys assigned for will help you not die. Find one that works for you. No, really. Press and hold the "W" key. Enjoy no longer dying to downstate.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:
    I see new posts on this every week.

    I see the most wanted ranked mode for next season is 2v2 and 3v3 arenas.....without downed state.

    I've never seen a community so vocal about wanting the downed state removed (from WvW and PvP), just to have the company behind the game be so prideful about their failed system that they would rather kill off their own PvP scene (which they did years ago, primarily due to downed state), than have their well made combat system run with the big boys.

    I play like...every MMO out there. Runescape, FF14, WoW, WoW Classic, GW2, EQ2, EQ1 Private Servers, CoH, DAoC Private Servers, BDO....and I honestly feel like GW2 and BDO have the best combat out there...(Very different combat). GW2 has a big awesome world to explore, story lines, voice acting, decent visual, no gear tradmill, achievements to get if you want (Legends)....it's just such a great MMO, and has the potential to have a PvP scene up there with WoW Arena...if they would just do it right.

    I have at least nine friends who I play other MMO's with who have flat out said, they enjoyed GW2, but quit because of the downed system as it ruins PvP. And even when I try to get them to give it another try they flat out say "As long as downed state is in PvP I will never play GW2 again".

    Now sure...this is just nine people I know...but I'm sure there are hundreds, thousands....maybe even hundreds of thousands of people who feel similar.

    Combine that with the obvious cry for its removal from the current player base...and I just can't see why Anet still insists on keeping it.

    They run WvW weekends without it, and they run arena without it...so the attempt at "It's built into the game and won't work without it", doesn't fly.

    I'm also very aware there are some people who love the downed state in PvP....it just seem's like its a very small portion compared to those who hate it.

    I mean...show me one other successful and well known PvP MMORPG that has been able to implement a downed state in a competitive PvP format? It can't be done because in an MMORPG setting it forgives all your mistakes...thus making a competitive aspect pointless.

    Yeah, no... "kill off their own PvP scene (which they did years ago, primarily due to downed state)"... Making things up bc you don't like DS doesn't mean it's true. And after X years of the same mechanics you shouldn't have an issue... that learning curve should be gone. And there are a ton of other real reasons why pvp didn't do well, and it has noting to do with DS.

  • Rouien.5234Rouien.5234 Member ✭✭

    I really hope they don't remove downstate because then that's going to make it a lot less team oriented and more focused on straight focusing someone rather than rotating and capping points.

    Perhaps they could add another ranked mode or something where resses and downs aren't a thing but, I really don't like the idea of simply kill focused modes around the board or that type gameplay because then it'll be no better than what it was back then.

    Before, there was no need to stomp because you could EASILY cleave through downed people. Which means, you didn't really have to think about much else but winning team fights and roaming/killing people because once a person went down, that was basically it. Now, even in teamfights, IF someone goes down then it's not the end of a fight IF they can be ressed and helped. Even in team fights, you should be focusing, but focusing the right target.

    That MIGHT work in WvW where it's simply bigger squads win 8/10 of the time. But, sPvP is SUPPOSED to be fined tune to skill based and competitive play. It shouldn't simply be "If you have this many people then you win" it should be "If you have people with this amount of skill doing x."

    In a way it, it makes people think. Are you sure that's not a support we're about drop? If you mindlessly dump your big cooldowns and damage into one person just to have them ressed again, then who's fault is it really? The person ressing/supporting is doing their job, so shouldn't you be punished? It's the same thing with Mercy from overwatch having a res. Instead of just dumping your CDs and movement into trying to catch another DD just to have them ressed and you be out of position, it's best to communicate and get the support first. It (sometimes) made people think like. "Maybe I should bait x to get y. Maybe i should feign x to have them to z"

    Idk that's just my thoughts, but I hope it doesn't get taken away cause I def won't play.

  • Luclinraider.2317Luclinraider.2317 Member ✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    dood lol downed state did not primarily kill pvp

    Actually if you go back on Youtube and watch alot of the "Pro" at the time teams, many of them said on their own stream that they were quitting because they felt downed state didn't promote competitive PvP.

    Now if we try that on another game and lets say WoW Arena suddenly was cancelled and dead, and several pro's said "I quit WoW because Rogue perma stealth is a dumb mechanic that ruins PvP". I think we can both agree after the 15th pro saying the same thing, that rogue perma stealth ruined their competitive pvp scene.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    dood lol downed state did not primarily kill pvp

    Actually if you go back on Youtube and watch alot of the "Pro" at the time teams, many of them said on their own stream that they were quitting because they felt downed state didn't promote competitive PvP.

    Now if we try that on another game and lets say WoW Arena suddenly was cancelled and dead, and several pro's said "I quit WoW because Rogue perma stealth is a dumb mechanic that ruins PvP". I think we can both agree after the 15th pro saying the same thing, that rogue perma stealth ruined their competitive pvp scene.

    Actually GW2 ESL died bc of bunker builds, not bc of downstate

  • @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    dood lol downed state did not primarily kill pvp

    Actually if you go back on Youtube and watch alot of the "Pro" at the time teams, many of them said on their own stream that they were quitting because they felt downed state didn't promote competitive PvP.

    Now if we try that on another game and lets say WoW Arena suddenly was cancelled and dead, and several pro's said "I quit WoW because Rogue perma stealth is a dumb mechanic that ruins PvP". I think we can both agree after the 15th pro saying the same thing, that rogue perma stealth ruined their competitive pvp scene.

    Actually GW2 ESL died bc of bunker builds, not bc of downstate

    Agreed...but what build does downed state benefit more than any others?

    Bunker Builds!

    Downed state just took hard to kill builds and made them literally unkillable on point.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    edit: Whoops, this is the PvP forum... nevermind.

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Most complaints after the no-downstate events were about dying to oneshot builds.

    Since this is fixed since feb25 it's time to finally remove downstate and start to reward skill instead of outnumbering.

    I always like the reward skill argument. Somehow many of us down and finish no problem. Of course if you a ranger and target that necro in a group from 1500 rng away it is total skill on your part and him getting rezzed when you only downed him not killed is unfair.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Most complaints after the no-downstate events were about dying to oneshot builds.

    Since this is fixed since feb25 it's time to finally remove downstate and start to reward skill instead of outnumbering.

    I always like the reward skill argument. Somehow many of us down and finish no problem. Of course if you a ranger and target that necro in a group from 1500 rng away it is total skill on your part and him getting rezzed when you only downed him not killed is unfair.

    I realized that this is the PvP forum. Downstate discussions are usually WvW oriented....

    I have a completely different opinion in this case. PvP is structured and in this game mode downstate is absolutely no issue.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rouien.5234 said:
    I really hope they don't remove downstate because then that's going to make it a lot less team oriented and more focused on straight focusing someone rather than rotating and capping points.

    It literally reads as "hey i dont like pvp, i just want to run around on map and cap points"

    "Pvp'ers" in 2020 are truly different kind of breed. God forbit ppl actually wanting to fight other players instead of camping a lame circle until it switch a color 😂

    Besides players focusing someone is actually a team oriented effort itself

  • cek.5478cek.5478 Member
    edited May 25, 2020

    Do you really playing this game? Or even close to gold rank? I dont think so.. What u gonna do against cancerous rev, fb and core necro tank-condi spams? Or you think everybody should play with those classes and builds? Spam all and disengage wait them die somewhere...
    Downstate is not even the latest thing on list about "fixing pvp". There are too many broken mechanics, classes, builds, skills.