Deadeye - Too powerful? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Deadeye - Too powerful?

Vashuddha.1538Vashuddha.1538 Member ✭✭

It has come to my attention that some people are a bit unsatifsied with the current state of Deadeye. It is my firm opinion that Deadeye needs to be toned down a bit, but I would love to hear your take on this, and open up a discussion on whether Deadeye needs a nerf or not.

So..

  1. Needs a nerf - explain why
  2. Deadeye is fine as it is - explain why

Let's keep this civil.

<1

Comments

  • Vashuddha.1538Vashuddha.1538 Member ✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Roche.7491 said:
    Deadeye needs a def buff. It’s too squishy compared to dd. You’ll be gone in a blink of an eye.

    Suggest make Rifle 5 mobile

    Interesting. What do you think about the the offensive aspect of this build? The build has high damage velocity at long ranges, combined with stealth and high mobility. Makes it hard to close distance as they can instantly stealth and then reappear at another location and instantly hit you with Death's judgement critting 7 - 10 k, stealth again and then repeat, a feat which surpasses even that of a ranger.

  • Vashuddha.1538Vashuddha.1538 Member ✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Friday.7864 said:
    If it was OP I'd be seeing a lot more of the class wherever I go. But I don't, barely anyone I know plays it.

    I'm not sure if I agree with this logic. There could be many contributing factors to why people choose to utilize another build over the other.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Roche.7491 said:
    Deadeye needs a def buff. It’s too squishy compared to dd. You’ll be gone in a blink of an eye.

    Suggest make Rifle 5 mobile

    Of course deadeye is squishier than daredevil.
    Daredevil is designed to be a melee bruiser elite spec with alot of survival tools at hand like blocks, evades, damage reductions....
    Deadeye on the other hand is designed to be a long range dps spec with tools like additional stealth, knockbacks and others to keep enemies at distance. But if you manage to close the gap to them, they are supposed to die quickly.

  • Roche.7491Roche.7491 Member ✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @Roche.7491 said:
    Deadeye needs a def buff. It’s too squishy compared to dd. You’ll be gone in a blink of an eye.

    Suggest make Rifle 5 mobile

    Interesting. What do you think about the the offensive aspect of this build? The build has high damage velocity at long ranges, combined with stealth and high mobility. Makes it hard to close distance as they can instantly stealth and then reappear at another location and instantly hit you with Death's judgement critting 7 - 10 k, stealth again and then repeat, a feat which surpasses even that of a ranger.

    Just evade it’s burst and it won’t have enough initiative to kill you. It can only do 3 burst shot. Judgement is easy to evade. Count one when a laser hits you then evade.

    Daredevil works best in evade as he has 6 evades. 3 from endurance, 1 from signet endurance refill, 1 from utility dodge skill, 1 from weapon skill.

    You can also use the smoke tech against range.

    You can also do a large aoe from other class so stealth won’t protect it. it’s dodge roll won’t be suffice to distance.

    Other classes have protection.

    It’s a glass cannon with no pets, weakest mobility but high burst. It’s suppose to be a threat

    Remove it’s burst and it will be a useless minion that is ignorable or not a threat

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Isn't there a thief section on the forums?

    Where would you want to nerf it? PvE, PvP, WvW?

    What do you think needs to be nerfed?

    Why bother, just delete the official Forum.

  • Vashuddha.1538Vashuddha.1538 Member ✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @lokh.2695 said:
    Isn't there a thief section on the forums?

    Yes there is. The last time I posted on a Thief section I was met with hostility, and insulted and patronized by a group of "pro-thieves" for asking questions.
    Basically, the thief section is a red zone, and should be avoided at all times unless you're okay with being marginalized and ridiculed. I know I'm not.

    Where would you want to nerf it? PvE, PvP, WvW?

    PVP, and WvW.

    What do you think needs to be nerfed?

    Mobility, perhaps. I just know out of personal experience that Thieves are (in some cases) incredibly difficult to deal with compared to other classes. Especially if you're wearing light armor.

  • Moradorin.6217Moradorin.6217 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Roche.7491 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @Roche.7491 said:
    Deadeye needs a def buff. It’s too squishy compared to dd. You’ll be gone in a blink of an eye.

    Suggest make Rifle 5 mobile

    Interesting. What do you think about the the offensive aspect of this build? The build has high damage velocity at long ranges, combined with stealth and high mobility. Makes it hard to close distance as they can instantly stealth and then reappear at another location and instantly hit you with Death's judgement critting 7 - 10 k, stealth again and then repeat, a feat which surpasses even that of a ranger.

    Just evade it’s burst and it won’t have enough initiative to kill you. It can only do 3 burst shot. Judgement is easy to evade. Count one when a laser hits you then evade.

    Daredevil works best in evade as he has 6 evades. 3 from endurance, 1 from signet endurance refill, 1 from utility dodge skill, 1 from weapon skill.

    You can also use the smoke tech against range.

    You can also do a large aoe from other class so stealth won’t protect it. it’s dodge roll won’t be suffice to distance.

    Other classes have protection.

    It’s a glass cannon with no pets, weakest mobility but high burst. It’s suppose to be a threat

    Remove it’s burst and it will be a useless minion that is ignorable or not a threat

    I have two issues with this suggestion. One the laser isnt very visible. In fact, much of the time I dont see the laser at all, esp if you are in combat w another player/NPCs. The other thing I have noticed is a good DE can reapply the stealth/burst combo so quickly that with, for example, a Mirage you use your 1 dodge then they can still just burst on you before you can dodge again, then they can also restealth BEFORE you can target and rupt or burst unless they are slow noobs. Its just a kitten spec that shouldnt exsist as it stands. Im not saying they arent squishy, IF they make enough mistakes you "may get lucky" and hit and down them, then if you wait around for stealth to wear off you can usually finish them pretty easy (so many IFs). Yea DE and DD both need more delay on stealth reapplication. That seems to be the biggest issue. I mean they restealth so fast not even auto target will hit them, you pretty much have to slash at the air and hope to hit them in stealth which is kitten.

    I think DE should have a forced delay after the burst that keeps them revealed long enough for them to be countered properly.

    I think the laser should be MUCH more vivible and it should give a better idea of the direction and location of the DE too.

    These two changes seem justified because the burst is significant, very fast, and they basically stay in stealth the entire time.

    Either the burst needs a longercooldown or the stealth needs a delay at the very least.

    As it stands its just some kitten trash that shoulnt be a thing.

  • Vashuddha.1538Vashuddha.1538 Member ✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    You were also asked for some details and given substantive feedback which you ignored.

    You clearly haven't read everything if you claim that I ignored the constructive feedback that was given to me. I responded to most of the comments there, but haven't as of recently due to the hostility and it being too time consuming. So to say that I ignored them is a blatant lie. Again, false accusations seems to be a trend here on the forums. Regardless, what I choose to ignore, or pay attention to is none but my own business, and it doesn't justify someone's need to be rude or condescending. So basically, your statement here is pretty much pointless.

    Moving on..

  • @Moradorin.6217 said:

    @Roche.7491 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @Roche.7491 said:
    Deadeye needs a def buff. It’s too squishy compared to dd. You’ll be gone in a blink of an eye.

    Suggest make Rifle 5 mobile

    Interesting. What do you think about the the offensive aspect of this build? The build has high damage velocity at long ranges, combined with stealth and high mobility. Makes it hard to close distance as they can instantly stealth and then reappear at another location and instantly hit you with Death's judgement critting 7 - 10 k, stealth again and then repeat, a feat which surpasses even that of a ranger.

    Just evade it’s burst and it won’t have enough initiative to kill you. It can only do 3 burst shot. Judgement is easy to evade. Count one when a laser hits you then evade.

    Daredevil works best in evade as he has 6 evades. 3 from endurance, 1 from signet endurance refill, 1 from utility dodge skill, 1 from weapon skill.

    You can also use the smoke tech against range.

    You can also do a large aoe from other class so stealth won’t protect it. it’s dodge roll won’t be suffice to distance.

    Other classes have protection.

    It’s a glass cannon with no pets, weakest mobility but high burst. It’s suppose to be a threat

    Remove it’s burst and it will be a useless minion that is ignorable or not a threat

    I have two issues with this suggestion. One the laser isnt very visible. In fact, much of the time I dont see the laser at all, esp if you are in combat w another player/NPCs. The other thing I have noticed is a good DE can reapply the stealth/burst combo so quickly that with, for example, a Mirage you use your 1 dodge then they can still just burst on you before you can dodge again, then they can also restealth BEFORE you can target and rupt or burst unless they are slow noobs. Its just a kitten spec that shouldnt exsist as it stands. Im not saying they arent squishy, IF they make enough mistakes you "may get lucky" and hit and down them, then if you wait around for stealth to wear off you can usually finish them pretty easy (so many IFs). Yea DE and DD both need more delay on stealth reapplication. That seems to be the biggest issue. I mean they restealth so fast not even auto target will hit them, you pretty much have to slash at the air and hope to hit them in stealth which is kitten.

    I think DE should have a forced delay after the burst that keeps them revealed long enough for them to be countered properly.

    I think the laser should be MUCH more vivible and it should give a better idea of the direction and location of the DE too.

    These two changes seem justified because the burst is significant, very fast, and they basically stay in stealth the entire time.

    Either the burst needs a longercooldown or the stealth needs a delay at the very least.

    As it stands its just some kitten trash that shoulnt be a thing.

    Agree a 100% with this. Good feedback.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:
    Mobility, perhaps. I just know out of personal experience that Thieves are (in some cases) incredibly difficult to deal with compared to other classes. Especially if you're wearing light armor.

    Alright, let's go through the list:

    • Mesmer: your actual problem is that your class got completely shredded by the absolute worst implementation of the new "elites should have drawbacks!" design philosophy, and sucks hard against everyone right now.
    • Elementalist: pay more attention to the defensive parts of your attunement rotation.
    • Necromancer: if you're a Reaper, use your pulls (plural!) and use Speed runes for roaming; Core ranged shroud attack is slow as molasses but boon corruption does great work against basically every thief build; Scourge is not a solo/ad-hoc-group roaming spec.
  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    You were also asked for some details and given substantive feedback which you ignored.

    You clearly haven't read everything if you claim that I ignored the constructive feedback that was given to me. I responded to most of the comments there, but haven't as of recently due to the hostility and it being too time consuming. So to say that I ignored them is a blatant lie. Again, false accusations seems to be a trend here on the forums. Regardless, what I choose to ignore, or pay attention to is none but my own business, and it doesn't justify someone's need to be rude or condescending. So basically, your statement here is pretty much pointless.

    Moving on..

    Ask for help and get help. Are you having problems with DE? I asked you in the other thread and you never responded, but made this long thread complaining about DE in another sub forum. I’m willing to help and, yes, I’m chastising you a little for acting like you have the time to post this big complaint thread but not to respond to the previous thief thread.

    And my question about DE stands. Is your problem the idea of Deadeye? I’m sorry, but that is literally the point of Deadeye as designed.

    Is your problem the stealth? Let’s go over that then. I can be helpful if I know the parameters of what you want to know about.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Deadeye is very underpowered. The class is even worse at fighting than regular thief, which is saying a lot. Its primary issue is that all of its damage is locked into Death's Judgment, a skill so telegraphed that you shouldnt be hit by it unless youre AFK or screwed up multiple times. Now there is a caveat here because sometimes the telegraph is bugged (and only appears after youve been hit), but that bug isnt nearly consistent enough to rely on. Its screwed by any projectile hate, any ranged class, or any mobile melee class. Basically it cant fight any good class effectively.

  • @saerni.2584 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    You were also asked for some details and given substantive feedback which you ignored.

    You clearly haven't read everything if you claim that I ignored the constructive feedback that was given to me. I responded to most of the comments there, but haven't as of recently due to the hostility and it being too time consuming. So to say that I ignored them is a blatant lie. Again, false accusations seems to be a trend here on the forums. Regardless, what I choose to ignore, or pay attention to is none but my own business, and it doesn't justify someone's need to be rude or condescending. So basically, your statement here is pretty much pointless.

    Moving on..

    Ask for help and get help. Are you having problems with DE? I asked you in the other thread and you never responded, but made this long thread complaining about DE in another sub forum.

    First of all, my first post was not in regard to DE at ALL, so you haven't really read my first post thouroughly which is a bit ironic since you're now here accusing me of not responding to something that wasn't even a subject to begin with.

    I’m willing to help and, yes, I’m chastising you a little for acting like you have the time to post this big complaint thread but not to respond to the previous thief thread.

    You've already demonstrated that you haven't really read my previous post carefully, and now you're literally trying to put me on trial based on this false narrative. But what about this post? I don't recall asking anyone for advice or help , the purpose was to start a civil discussion in regard to DE. So basically what you're doing is giving me s*** for not responding to your very unsolicited advice. Having said that, I do appreciate when someone is willing to provide valuable knowledge guidamce, but it's the patronizing arroganse that usually comes with it that I have a problem with, and is the main reason why I left the other thread, because most of the "constructive" feedback was drenched with negativity.

    If you're willing to help, and perhaps share some of your knowledge, then I am all ears, but let's keep it factual and civil ☺️

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:
    It has come to my attention that some people are a bit unsatifsied with the current state of Deadeye. It is my firm opinion that Deadeye needs to be toned down a bit, but I would love to hear your take on this, and open up a discussion on whether Deadeye needs a nerf or not.

    So..

    1. Needs a nerf - explain why
    2. Deadeye is fine as it is - explain why

    Let's keep this civil.

    You demand exlanation from people, yet you throw your opinion in the opening post with no justification at all. How do you think that's ok?

    What are you babbling about?

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:
    It has come to my attention that some people are a bit unsatifsied with the current state of Deadeye. It is my firm opinion that Deadeye needs to be toned down a bit, but I would love to hear your take on this, and open up a discussion on whether Deadeye needs a nerf or not.

    So..

    1. Needs a nerf - explain why
    2. Deadeye is fine as it is - explain why

    Let's keep this civil.

    You demand exlanation from people, yet you throw your opinion in the opening post with no justification at all. How do you think that's ok?

    What are you babbling about?

    You tell people to give their opinions with justification, while at the same time you throw you "firm opinion" with no justification at all. I'm curious by what logic you consider that double standard "ok", that's all.
    Following what you've done in your opening post, I guess I'm fine with saying "It is my firm opinion that deadeye needs no changes" and nothing else. How much is this worth for you (or anyone, really)?
    Hope it's clear what I've meant this time.

    Also, I'm not "babbling", no need to be condescending.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:
    It has come to my attention that some people are a bit unsatifsied with the current state of Deadeye. It is my firm opinion that Deadeye needs to be toned down a bit, but I would love to hear your take on this, and open up a discussion on whether Deadeye needs a nerf or not.

    So..

    1. Needs a nerf - explain why
    2. Deadeye is fine as it is - explain why

    Let's keep this civil.

    You demand exlanation from people, yet you throw your opinion in the opening post with no justification at all. How do you think that's ok?

    What are you babbling about?

    You tell people to give their opinions with justification, while at the same time you throw you "firm opinion" with no justification at all. I'm curious by what logic you consider that double standard "ok", that's all.
    Following what you've done in your opening post, I guess I'm fine with saying "It is my firm opinion that deadeye needs no changes" and nothing else. How much is this worth for you (or anyone, really)?

    Hope it's clear what I've meant this time.

    Also, I'm not "babbling", no need to be condescending.

    To be honest, I am a bit confused by your accusations here. Could you please tell me what you're refering to? Has anyone asked me about my opinion, and if so did I refuse to answer them?

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    You were also asked for some details and given substantive feedback which you ignored.

    You clearly haven't read everything if you claim that I ignored the constructive feedback that was given to me. I responded to most of the comments there, but haven't as of recently due to the hostility and it being too time consuming. So to say that I ignored them is a blatant lie. Again, false accusations seems to be a trend here on the forums. Regardless, what I choose to ignore, or pay attention to is none but my own business, and it doesn't justify someone's need to be rude or condescending. So basically, your statement here is pretty much pointless.

    Moving on..

    Ask for help and get help. Are you having problems with DE? I asked you in the other thread and you never responded, but made this long thread complaining about DE in another sub forum.

    First of all, my first post was not in regard to DE at ALL, so you haven't really read my first post thouroughly which is a bit ironic since you're now here accusing me of not responding to something that wasn't even a subject to begin with.

    I’m willing to help and, yes, I’m chastising you a little for acting like you have the time to post this big complaint thread but not to respond to the previous thief thread.

    You've already demonstrated that you haven't really read my previous post carefully, and now you're literally trying to put me on trial based on this false narrative. But what about this post? I don't recall asking anyone for advice or help , the purpose was to start a civil discussion in regard to DE. So basically what you're doing is giving me s*** for not responding to your very unsolicited advice. Having said that, I do appreciate when someone is willing to provide valuable knowledge guidamce, but it's the patronizing arroganse that usually comes with it that I have a problem with, and is the main reason why I left the other thread, because most of the "constructive" feedback was drenched with negativity.

    If you're willing to help, and perhaps share some of your knowledge, then I am all ears, but let's keep it factual and civil ☺️

    Going off your OP and first few posts you have a “firm opinion.” Based on what? You haven’t said. Just gone after people challenging your lack of substantive arguments for “attacking you.”

    Unsolicited advice? You posted “how to beat thief, really?” in the first thread and my advice was unsolicited?

    Fine. You don’t want advice? Bye.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • @saerni.2584 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    You were also asked for some details and given substantive feedback which you ignored.

    You clearly haven't read everything if you claim that I ignored the constructive feedback that was given to me. I responded to most of the comments there, but haven't as of recently due to the hostility and it being too time consuming. So to say that I ignored them is a blatant lie. Again, false accusations seems to be a trend here on the forums. Regardless, what I choose to ignore, or pay attention to is none but my own business, and it doesn't justify someone's need to be rude or condescending. So basically, your statement here is pretty much pointless.

    Moving on..

    Ask for help and get help. Are you having problems with DE? I asked you in the other thread and you never responded, but made this long thread complaining about DE in another sub forum.

    First of all, my first post was not in regard to DE at ALL, so you haven't really read my first post thouroughly which is a bit ironic since you're now here accusing me of not responding to something that wasn't even a subject to begin with.

    I’m willing to help and, yes, I’m chastising you a little for acting like you have the time to post this big complaint thread but not to respond to the previous thief thread.

    You've already demonstrated that you haven't really read my previous post carefully, and now you're literally trying to put me on trial based on this false narrative. But what about this post? I don't recall asking anyone for advice or help , the purpose was to start a civil discussion in regard to DE. So basically what you're doing is giving me s*** for not responding to your very unsolicited advice. Having said that, I do appreciate when someone is willing to provide valuable knowledge guidamce, but it's the patronizing arroganse that usually comes with it that I have a problem with, and is the main reason why I left the other thread, because most of the "constructive" feedback was drenched with negativity.

    If you're willing to help, and perhaps share some of your knowledge, then I am all ears, but let's keep it factual and civil ☺️

    Going off your OP and first few posts you have a “firm opinion.” Based on what? You haven’t said. Just gone after people challenging your lack of substantive arguments for “attacking you.”

    Unsolicited advice? You posted “how to beat thief, really?” in the first thread and my advice was unsolicited?

    Fine. You don’t want advice? Bye.

    Unsolicited advice in regard to this post, silly, not the other one. I was also pointing out the fact that you mentioned De, when the subject on the other post was not about DE at all. Come on man :)

  • ferbz.6987ferbz.6987 Member ✭✭

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:
    It has come to my attention that some people are a bit unsatifsied with the current state of Deadeye. It is my firm opinion that Deadeye needs to be toned down a bit, but I would love to hear your take on this, and open up a discussion on whether Deadeye needs a nerf or not.

    So..

    1. Needs a nerf - explain why
    2. Deadeye is fine as it is - explain why

    Let's keep this civil.

    You demand exlanation from people, yet you throw your opinion in the opening post with no justification at all. How do you think that's ok?

    What are you babbling about?

    You tell people to give their opinions with justification, while at the same time you throw you "firm opinion" with no justification at all. I'm curious by what logic you consider that double standard "ok", that's all.
    Following what you've done in your opening post, I guess I'm fine with saying "It is my firm opinion that deadeye needs no changes" and nothing else. How much is this worth for you (or anyone, really)?

    Hope it's clear what I've meant this time.

    Also, I'm not "babbling", no need to be condescending.

    To be honest, I am a bit confused by your accusations here. Could you please tell me what you're refering to? Has anyone asked me about my opinion, and if so did I refuse to answer them?

    No, he is applying the same double standard you are doing. You firmly believe DE needs to be tonned down with out any explanation, he is doing the same just opposite. Is your word more believable than his? You also say others believe DE need tinned down who? Out of the entire wvw population is it 90%, 50%, .1%? I also firmly believe DE is no where near to what you state.

    You should provide some context, some justification and an argument to even start asking for opinions. What class do you play? And as others have mentioned we can provide some easy pointers to get those DEs bags. That said, It is my firm opinion that this is a l2p issue. See what I did there.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only thing about DE that needs nerfing is their extremely overloaded Cantrip, Binding Shadow.
    It:

    • Immobilizes
    • inflicts Poison, if not for damage, but for heal block as well
    • Knocks down if target is Marked
    • 15 Vuln stacks
    • 2 Boons ripped
    • Can be pre-casted from Stealth with 0 tell and without revealing themselves until the damage tick applies along with the above-listed effects

    Half the time a DE ever gets a kill, it's because this skill sets up their target to be the most helpless baby elephant which probably has brain damage due to how it gives complete and absolute lockdown on the target, only countered if the target somehow is able to resist the knockdown and resist/remove the immobilize, which is also accounted for btw, due to Boon ripping prioritizing Stability first.

    Its cooldown is 30s, but for how many things it achieves with a single button press, it may as well be an elite skill.
    (If yu ask me, there are alot of skills which are basically mini elite skills in the game right now that also needs nerfing, but this is just DE for this topic)

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    The only thing about DE that needs nerfing is their extremely overloaded Cantrip, Binding Shadow.
    It:

    • Immobilizes
    • inflicts Poison, if not for damage, but for heal block as well
    • Knocks down if target is Marked
    • 15 Vuln stacks
    • 2 Boons ripped
    • Can be pre-casted from Stealth with 0 tell and without revealing themselves until the damage tick applies along with the above-listed effects

    Half the time a DE ever gets a kill, it's because this skill sets up their target to be the most helpless baby elephant which probably has brain damage due to how it gives complete and absolute lockdown on the target, only countered if the target somehow is able to resist the knockdown and resist/remove the immobilize, which is also accounted for btw, due to Boon ripping prioritizing Stability first.

    Its cooldown is 30s, but for how many things it achieves with a single button press, it may as well be an elite skill.
    (If yu ask me, there are alot of skills which are basically mini elite skills in the game right now that also needs nerfing, but this is just DE for this topic)

    I'd probably end up taking Binding Shadow over Shadow Meld in WvW if it were an elite. I'd use it now if it could pull off walls. I kind of forget why I stopped using it in open field, might have been the ammo management of Scorpion Wire having better sustain overall.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Taobella.6597Taobella.6597 Member ✭✭✭

    i think deadeye in a fine state. i wouldn't mind seeing shadow retreat slightly nerf in some way maybe just adding like 2 second hard CD to it. but outside of that deadeye does not hit hard enough for it to really matter.

  • Nirari.4827Nirari.4827 Member ✭✭

    Its a normal class. You win/lose against him. And its not even the best class. Its more difficult to play now. Not so hard carryed by class, which is okay.
    Many new player think "nice Im invis whole time yay", they try and realized it is a weak class and not very forgiving.

    There are multible mechanics to fight it (refelect, barrier, invul, los, bodycover from minions/ pets, doges, interrupts, blocks).

    If you are engaged this all, you would loose against every other class too. Even against a Npc of a camp.

    If ppl have trouble with de, I guess they have trouble with a lot other classes too.

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taobella.6597 said:
    i think deadeye in a fine state. i wouldn't mind seeing [b]shadow retreat[/b] slightly nerf in some way maybe just adding like 2 second hard CD to it. but outside of that deadeye does not hit hard enough for it to really matter.

    Huh what? That skill doesn't exist anymore. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Retreat
    Did you mean rifle#4 death's retreat instead? Its ini cost was already increased on big patch so can't use it 3x in row in Trickery, can only use it twice.

    Thief core design philosophy on weapon skills don't have hard CD to them. The soft cd already in place is the ini cost and ini regen. And it puts death's retreat to 6s cd already in its current state.

  • SlitheSlivier.1908SlitheSlivier.1908 Member ✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    If DE gets "toned down" it is dead. I can win more 1v1 matchups with my necro than DE. I play DE because it plays differently and is fun, but it is not OP. It counters certain builds really well, but that's always the case. It shuts down necros well who didn't bring mobility related skills. But it gets shut down by several other builds too.

    Also...i find any good D/P can kill a DE by maybe that's just me

  • Taobella.6597Taobella.6597 Member ✭✭✭

    @aleron.1438 said:

    @Taobella.6597 said:
    i think deadeye in a fine state. i wouldn't mind seeing [b]shadow retreat[/b] slightly nerf in some way maybe just adding like 2 second hard CD to it. but outside of that deadeye does not hit hard enough for it to really matter.

    Huh what? That skill doesn't exist anymore. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Retreat
    Did you mean rifle#4 death's retreat instead? Its ini cost was already increased on big patch so can't use it 3x in row in Trickery, can only use it twice.

    Thief core design philosophy on weapon skills don't have hard CD to them. The soft cd already in place is the ini cost and ini regen. And it puts death's retreat to 6s cd already in its current state.

    yeah that one Lol. anything open to change at some point.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:
    snip it's the patronizing arroganse that usually comes with it that I have a problem with snip

    If you're willing to help, and perhaps share some of your knowledge, then I am all ears, but let's keep it factual and civil ☺️

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:
    What are you babbling about?

    Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah. Factual and civil.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    The only thing about DE that needs nerfing is their extremely overloaded Cantrip, Binding Shadow.
    It:

    • Immobilizes
    • inflicts Poison, if not for damage, but for heal block as well
    • Knocks down if target is Marked
    • 15 Vuln stacks
    • 2 Boons ripped
    • Can be pre-casted from Stealth with 0 tell and without revealing themselves until the damage tick applies along with the above-listed effects

    Half the time a DE ever gets a kill, it's because this skill sets up their target to be the most helpless baby elephant which probably has brain damage due to how it gives complete and absolute lockdown on the target, only countered if the target somehow is able to resist the knockdown and resist/remove the immobilize, which is also accounted for btw, due to Boon ripping prioritizing Stability first.

    Its cooldown is 30s, but for how many things it achieves with a single button press, it may as well be an elite skill.
    (If yu ask me, there are alot of skills which are basically mini elite skills in the game right now that also needs nerfing, but this is just DE for this topic)

    This is a fair comment tbh. The skill is pretty overloaded for what it is.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

    -Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato
    -Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it
    -things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

    Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

    -Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato
    -Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it
    -things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

    The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

    Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

    -Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato
    -Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it
    -things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

    The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

    It’s better in WvW where you can use food to get +40% endurance regen. That lets you chain a lot more stealth and effectively stall out most people permanently (guess what I fought earlier today in WvW lol). Plenty of my less capable allies were ending up downed in fights with that DE.

    IMO DE needs more work on Rifle skills themselves or how rifle plays. Non-rifle DE is actually fine. Kneel as a mechanic is interesting but doesn’t work well in PvP where your movement skills should automatically break your kneel stance but don’t.

    The disconnect on DE is the potential power of the specialization is much higher than your average player is able to get without resorting to permastealth. Good DE will have dangerous levels of damage and not be permastealth. But that is balanced and the people complaining about permastealth DE are actually just falling into the trap of trying to fight an attrition stealth build and complaining about that. That’s not a clean fight, it relies on the target sticking around to “fight” while the other party takes potshots until the DE either wins or disengages due to becoming outnumbered. It’s a mind game and has little to do with the balance of the game.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    -things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

    Well, that's the thing, isn't it? The damage has been nerfed.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    -things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

    Well, that's the thing, isn't it? The damage has been nerfed.

    Seriously, that sentence seemed pretty ridiculous to me. Basically "it would be broken, but it's not!" uh... ok?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

    Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

    -Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato
    -Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it
    -things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

    The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

    It’s better in WvW where you can use food to get +40% endurance regen. That lets you chain a lot more stealth and effectively stall out most people permanently (guess what I fought earlier today in WvW lol). Plenty of my less capable allies were ending up downed in fights with that DE.

    Thing is, stalling out doesnt really do much. The build still has to find a way to do damage without letting the opponent retaliate in any of the myriad of ways that can crush the DE. Its good against bad players because apparently people just dont like dodging Deaths Judgment. Its puzzling really.

    IMO DE needs more work on Rifle skills themselves or how rifle plays. Non-rifle DE is actually fine. Kneel as a mechanic is interesting but doesn’t work well in PvP where your movement skills should automatically break your kneel stance but don’t.

    Kneel mechanics problem is that the entire concept is flawed. Anchoring yourself is a big downside, and it needs a major benefit to be worth it. But at the same time if the benefit actually is major, the thing becomes uninteractive. Imagine if a DE could actually down you in a couple seconds from far away with you having little chance to stop it. And as it is, the kneeled skills are outright worse than the regular ones, so you have 0 reason to ever kneel.

    The disconnect on DE is the potential power of the specialization is much higher than your average player is able to get without resorting to permastealth. Good DE will have dangerous levels of damage and not be permastealth. But that is balanced and the people complaining about permastealth DE are actually just falling into the trap of trying to fight an attrition stealth build and complaining about that. That’s not a clean fight, it relies on the target sticking around to “fight” while the other party takes potshots until the DE either wins or disengages due to becoming outnumbered. It’s a mind game and has little to do with the balance of the game.

    Good DEs will have more damage than people trying to go for permastealth, but it will still be heavily outclassed by other ranged builds, such as, well, ranger. Hypothetically this should be balanced out by range, but Ranger outright has 200 more range than DE does, and since you dont ever kneel, thief is on par with everyone else.

  • mikdepadua.8376mikdepadua.8376 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:

    @Friday.7864 said:
    If it was OP I'd be seeing a lot more of the class wherever I go. But I don't, barely anyone I know plays it.

    I'm not sure if I agree with this logic. There could be many contributing factors to why people choose to utilize another build over the other.

    There's literally 2 reasons.

    1. They like the flavor of other builds; and
    2. Other builds are stronger.
  • mikdepadua.8376mikdepadua.8376 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    The only thing about DE that needs nerfing is their extremely overloaded Cantrip, Binding Shadow.
    It:

    • Immobilizes
    • inflicts Poison, if not for damage, but for heal block as well
    • Knocks down if target is Marked
    • 15 Vuln stacks
    • 2 Boons ripped
    • Can be pre-casted from Stealth with 0 tell and without revealing themselves until the damage tick applies along with the above-listed effects

    Half the time a DE ever gets a kill, it's because this skill sets up their target to be the most helpless baby elephant which probably has brain damage due to how it gives complete and absolute lockdown on the target, only countered if the target somehow is able to resist the knockdown and resist/remove the immobilize, which is also accounted for btw, due to Boon ripping prioritizing Stability first.

    Its cooldown is 30s, but for how many things it achieves with a single button press, it may as well be an elite skill.
    (If yu ask me, there are alot of skills which are basically mini elite skills in the game right now that also needs nerfing, but this is just DE for this topic)

    It's their only CC though. And every class should have a stun break. So against a deadeye you should be holding your stunbreak until you get hit by this.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @mikdepadua.8376 said:

    It's their only CC though. And every class should have a stun break. So against a deadeye you should be holding your stunbreak until you get hit by this.

    It's not the CC portion I care about, it's how it just dumps a whole load of Conditions as well as boon rips which annoys me.

    And this is far from their only CC.
    They have by far the most consistent CC in the entire game : Spotter's Shot.
    No cooldown spammable 1.5sec Immob which somehow still does damage, only countered by Resistance.

    It also prevents dodge rolling, forcing people to take the DJ.
    Do they need a no tell knockdown which inflicts heal block, another immob, 2 Boon rip and 15 vuln stacks in addition to this?
    Hell no.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

    Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

    -Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato
    -Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it
    -things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

    The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

    It’s better in WvW where you can use food to get +40% endurance regen. That lets you chain a lot more stealth and effectively stall out most people permanently.

    I think the bigger problem with perma stealth is the amount of blind fields DE/thief has access to combo. DE being able to drop snipers cover/black powder/smokescreen and swap to d/p or short bow for the blast/leap finishers essentially ensures nothing can out stealth them. Then ofcourse by the time the stealth has ended all init that was spent stealthing would have regenerated. If a class wants to stack stealth they should at the very least be forced to use cool downs that won't be back up by the time their stealth ends. Of course you can counter this by standing in the blind fields, but this essentially gives the thief a free hit/burst.

    Dodge food is great don't get me wrong, which is why I'm actually running it, but it only works out to be an extra dodge every 15-20 seconds or so, which is amazing, but not the greatest method of perma stealthing.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vashuddha.1538 said:
    It has come to my attention that some people are a bit unsatifsied with the current state of Deadeye. It is my firm opinion that Deadeye needs to be toned down a bit, but I would love to hear your take on this, and open up a discussion on whether Deadeye needs a nerf or not.

    So..

    1. Needs a nerf - explain why
    2. Deadeye is fine as it is - explain why

    Let's keep this civil.

    Ultimately, neither. The deadeye is basicaly a thief with problematic core designs magnified. It's less a matter of balancing the deadeye than rethink the design of the thief that need to be done.

    The thief suffered nerfs after nerfs since game release because it's gameplay revolve around dealing burst of damage from stealth. Deadeye just so happen to make those burst of damage from stealth more potent. The issue other professions have is that high damage burst with little visual tells isn't a thing which is fun to play against. The issue the thief have is that so much of the gameplay have been dedicated to this design that trying to play anything else tend to be subpar.

    In the end, stealth is made to strong offensively and defensively due to it's visual impact. Yet if this visual impact was attenuated the thief wouldn't quite cut it defensively. Thus it's yet another impossible balance equation due to a broken core mechanism design. There is no balancing this profession or/and e-spec, it's either to good or extremly bad.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

    Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

    -Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato
    -Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it
    -things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

    The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

    It’s better in WvW where you can use food to get +40% endurance regen. That lets you chain a lot more stealth and effectively stall out most people permanently.

    I think the bigger problem with perma stealth is the amount of blind fields DE/thief has access to combo. DE being able to drop snipers cover/black powder/smokescreen and swap to d/p or short bow for the blast/leap finishers essentially ensures nothing can out stealth them. Then ofcourse by the time the stealth has ended all init that was spent stealthing would have regenerated. If a class wants to stack stealth they should at the very least be forced to use cool downs that won't be back up by the time their stealth ends. Of course you can counter this by standing in the blind fields, but this essentially gives the thief a free hit/burst.

    Dodge food is great don't get me wrong, which is why I'm actually running it, but it only works out to be an extra dodge every 15-20 seconds or so, which is amazing, but not the greatest method of perma stealthing.

    Hey Doug! I was that thief you were fighting in the ruins :D

    Wouldn’t the big endurance gain be from the food plus Vigor? I more meant that the food is what makes the Sniper trait viable as a consistent source of stealth. With the nerfs it is definitely not the main stealth access if you are built for stealth stacking.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @mikdepadua.8376 said:

    It's their only CC though. And every class should have a stun break. So against a deadeye you should be holding your stunbreak until you get hit by this.

    It's not the CC portion I care about, it's how it just dumps a whole load of Conditions as well as boon rips which annoys me.

    And this is far from their only CC.
    They have by far the most consistent CC in the entire game : Spotter's Shot.
    No cooldown spammable 1.5sec Immob which somehow still does damage, only countered by Resistance.

    It also prevents dodge rolling, forcing people to take the DJ.
    Do they need a no tell knockdown which inflicts heal block, another immob, 2 Boon rip and 15 vuln stacks in addition to this?
    Hell no.

    Yup, there is some truth in what you're saying. BUT how often do you use kneel in pvp?
    I still think kneel is pretty garbage in most situations.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    Yup, there is some truth in what you're saying. BUT how often do you use kneel in pvp?
    I still think kneel is pretty garbage in most situations.

    Bruh imo, the entire DE spec is garbage.
    It capitalizes so hard on the weakness of Thief and disguises it as its strength.

    Stealth as strength amplified several times over and weakness as a loser which can't do anything once they pop up to DJ amplified several times over.
    This is further pushed by Thief's core ini mechanic, encouraging DE players to play like true cowards and suffer heavily once they got caught by someone.

    However, I feel like recently this trend has been greatly disturbed by the massive nerf meteor which now allowed DE to not die as much by getting caught, while builds that previously are able to reliably catch and beatdown DEs got hurt to the point where they no longer can't (like SpB for example, suffering alot of sustain nerfs as well as major nerfs to the one reason why they were so dominant before : their Stance passives)

    I find it extremely funny as well, that I could dust off my old Sic'em pew pew SB and managed to down a DE in a single One Wolf Pack Sic'Em combo.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @mikdepadua.8376 said:

    It's their only CC though. And every class should have a stun break. So against a deadeye you should be holding your stunbreak until you get hit by this.

    It's not the CC portion I care about, it's how it just dumps a whole load of Conditions as well as boon rips which annoys me.

    And this is far from their only CC.
    They have by far the most consistent CC in the entire game : Spotter's Shot.
    No cooldown spammable 1.5sec Immob which somehow still does damage, only countered by Resistance.

    It also prevents dodge rolling, forcing people to take the DJ.
    Do they need a no tell knockdown which inflicts heal block, another immob, 2 Boon rip and 15 vuln stacks in addition to this?
    Hell no.

    Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

    What tradeoff?
    Oh yu mean Kneel still allowing dodge rolling for Stealth and using Shadow Step?

    A real trade off is to stop DE from rolling in Kneel :^)

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    Yup, there is some truth in what you're saying. BUT how often do you use kneel in pvp?
    I still think kneel is pretty garbage in most situations.

    Bruh imo, the entire DE spec is garbage.
    It capitalizes so hard on the weakness of Thief and disguises it as its strength.

    I find it extremely funny as well, that I could dust off my old Sic'em pew pew SB and managed to down a DE in a single One Wolf Pack Sic'Em combo.

    So what are you complaining about here, lmao.