Downstate isn't a problem. Rally is. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Downstate isn't a problem. Rally is.

UBcktieDL.5318UBcktieDL.5318 Member ✭✭

Rally is a really dumb mechanic in PvP gamemodes. A close teamfight can easily become completely onesided when half of one's team gets suddenly revived with half their healthbar. Downstate itself is fine, it adds something unique to GW2's pvp, sure they could rebalance some aspects, just remove that stupid rallying.

Comments

  • @apharma.3741 said:

    @UBcktieDL.5318 said:
    Rally is a really dumb mechanic in PvP gamemodes. A close teamfight can easily become completely onesided when half of one's team gets suddenly revived with half their healthbar. Downstate itself is fine, it adds something unique to GW2's pvp, sure they could rebalance some aspects, just remove that stupid rallying.

    So they should add a 1 for 1 rally mechanic to PvP like it is in WvW?

    nah, just remove it entirely. You can still ress your downed mates after a fight.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    The issue for me is neither of those. It is the revive speed. I can try as hard as I want on my zerk slb, no way I stop a revive. I guess aoe condis are doing decent but zerk single target should still be on par with with revive speed.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aymnad.9023 said:
    The issue for me is neither of those. It is the revive speed. I can try as hard as I want on my zerk slb, no way I stop a revive. I guess aoe condis are doing decent but zerk single target should still be on par with with revive speed.

    Poison doesn't need condition damage to reduce healing and ranger have plenty access to poison.

    Honnestly, the main issue of the downstate is that the mechanism is unrefined, sure they added skills and traits to support it over the years but ultimately the base mechanism could use some work. It feel like the base mechanism is a pre game release relic born from the idea of the necromancer's shroud being the necromancer's downstate.

    Unfortunately the shroud being the necromancer's downstate didn't make it to the game release. A simple debuff of "broken vitality" growing each time you're downed would help a lot with the sPvP down issue (They could even recycle the PvE broken armor icones to illustrate it). When the debuff is yellow you got less health when downed, when the debuff is red and you're downed again, you just die. Let the debuff last 20 seconds for each stage and renewed each time your downed and here we go, downstate fixed.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One for one rallying is still bad. It's a huge power swing in what should be a relatively even fight.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lower bleed out speed.
    Lower revive speed across the board.
    Remove rally, instead all downed players get healed %max HP when enemy dies, so that winner has time to reach teammate to rez them 20% heal is reasonable.
    Make another skill, that when used makes you bleed out faster.
    Donzo

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If revive speed remains cleaving should get a 80% damage buff when cleaving opponents in downstate

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, rally is. Wonder how much it'll take to convince for the removal of it. It's stupid that you're better off cleaving someone rather than revive your dying teammate next to it. Should they check into people's down skills after it? Probably. Some of 'em like Thief downstate poison or Ranger pet res could need some tweaking.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    I would first try to remove all those abilities that allow faster revives.

  • CroTiger.7819CroTiger.7819 Member ✭✭✭

    Rally is rly worst thing in pvp. Its even worse than condi thief. Idk how its still there in pvp because it looks like some temporary issue not splited from pve.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    Lower bleed out speed.
    Lower revive speed across the board.
    Remove rally, instead all downed players get healed %max HP when enemy dies, so that winner has time to reach teammate to rez them 20% heal is reasonable.
    Make another skill, that when used makes you bleed out faster.
    Donzo

    Necromancers have an AoE trait that stops bleeding out entirely so having a lower bleedout speed would be kinda pointless tbh and take away from a really useful ability that Necromancers exclusively have access to.

    I think lowering revive speed generally isn't a bad idea, specifically reviving downed players.
    However I also think that healing power should end up playing a huge role in boosting revive speeds as well so you can still play a more medic like role but you're going to be forced into a healing power spec to actually be good at it.
    That's a fair trade imo.

    I don't think removing rally is a good idea, however I would suggest that in competitive play when you get rallied you should have a 1-2 minute red downed penalty debuff and if you get downed again while that debuff is active you instantly die and the buff is removed.
    So basically everyone gets one downed state per battle which I think would make far more sense than removing it entirely.
    Not to mention players who get downed are going to get far less brave when they rally because they know the next time it happens they aint going down again it an instant death.

    Rather than make a whole new skill to cause bleedout faster, why not just give that ability to the Bleed condition?
    Bleeds are already kinda underwhelming for a condition due to their ease of access and generally being heavily outclassed in damage by other conditions like Torment and Burning.
    Giving bleeding a bonus against downed players would be a nice boost to the condition without hurting or imbalacing general combat.
    Maybe every stack of bleeding deals and extra 1% bleed damage to downed players so a downed player with 25 bleeds on them will be taking 25% more damage per tick from the bleeding stack.
    Throw some poison on them too and cripple their incoming healing from other players and you can have a nasty combination for killing the downed.

  • Hirosama Nadasaki.6792Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    Reducing base revive speed by a good amount while making it be affected by healing power sounds pretty interesting, makes reviving harder and increase the value of dedicated support/healing builds.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    @Teratus.2859
    necro "no bleedout to allies" would still be usefull, since revive speed would go down, meaning it takes longer to revive meaning down enemy bleeds for longer meaning the trait is more usefull.
    Faster bleedout would be every class ability, DOWNED ability, you use it to die faster when downed, to accomodate slower bleedout, so you are not stuck for 1min+ bleeding out, then spawning and then walking into action.

    EDIT, having bleed deal extra dmg to downed targets is not that bad idea, or MB make players that are channeling revive take extra dmg.

  • Fantasylife.7981Fantasylife.7981 Member ✭✭✭

    Currently downstate to me is a big problem in conquest just remove it so rally also goes away.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Who woulda thought having different degrees of effectiveness between downstate and rally between the classes would be a problem in a pvp setting lol. Honestly its telling that's for sure.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    It only takes an hour or two of queueing to see how downed state needs some changes. There's no way it won't get adjustments until it's tuned to be more balanced against the current damage we now do.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    It only takes an hour or two of queueing to see how downed state needs some changes. There's no way it won't get adjustments until it's tuned to be more balanced against the current damage we now do.

    Sry but u sound like someone that doesnt know how anet works lol sure itl get adjusted, in summer of 2022

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Before Quickness was nerfed in HoT I felt like quickness stomps were very healthy in team play and allowed for secured kills.
    Where Quickness Res on the other hand was pretty broken, and part of the reason why Season 1 Chronobunk was so insufferable.

    My question at the time was "why not just keep quickness stomps so teams can secure kills, and remove quickness rez" and I think grouch at the time was like "well we want it consistent for new players" or something.

    5 years later I still think it would fix this issue and make team fights feel better, since it allows a healthy amount of counter play on both sides.
    And if there are problems with quickness in combat that need to be addressed I see no reason why it can't be altered in whatever way it needs to; while still allowing it to secure stomps.

  • @Daishi.6027 said:
    Before Quickness was nerfed in HoT I felt like quickness stomps were very healthy in team play and allowed for secured kills.
    Where Quickness Res on the other hand was pretty broken, and part of the reason why Season 1 Chronobunk was so insufferable.

    My question at the time was "why not just keep quickness stomps so teams can secure kills, and remove quickness rez" and I think grouch at the time was like "well we want it consistent for new players" or something.

    5 years later I still think it would fix this issue and make team fights feel better, since it allows a healthy amount of counter play on both sides.
    And if there are problems with quickness in combat that need to be addressed I see no reason why it can't be altered in whatever way it needs to; while still allowing it to secure stomps.

    the real reason they nerfed quickness stomp was bc slow stomp was a thing and revenant was jigga cancer

  • Ryo.5824Ryo.5824 Member ✭✭

    Yeah rally should just go. Teamfights is literally just everyone go in burst one guy down and win, because whatever other damage you and your teammates take so that you get downed just gets reset.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @DoritoGod.5817 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Before Quickness was nerfed in HoT I felt like quickness stomps were very healthy in team play and allowed for secured kills.
    Where Quickness Res on the other hand was pretty broken, and part of the reason why Season 1 Chronobunk was so insufferable.

    My question at the time was "why not just keep quickness stomps so teams can secure kills, and remove quickness rez" and I think grouch at the time was like "well we want it consistent for new players" or something.

    5 years later I still think it would fix this issue and make team fights feel better, since it allows a healthy amount of counter play on both sides.
    And if there are problems with quickness in combat that need to be addressed I see no reason why it can't be altered in whatever way it needs to; while still allowing it to secure stomps.

    the real reason they nerfed quickness stomp was bc slow stomp was a thing and revenant was jigga cancer

    Ya I recall that too, and this was more of their "consistency" to keep quickness as a hard parallel to slow. They could have done 'slow will only slow attacks and not actions, while quickness will hasten actions except revive'. Complexity for health, in a game mode they admit not a lot of their players play, and a scene that dwindles because of it's lack of a healthy game; is a fair and sound trade.

    Maybe I'm wrong about the specifics of application, but these types of standards are part of the reason why it's been 5 years and people are still going on about downstate's impact on team fights. I mean they could just remove it outright, (They also have the purview to make it even more centralizing,) but I think there wouldn't be a problem either way with healthy balancing.

  • Rally should go in WvW. (Or just make it for new low-rank folks, maybe before bronze rank to support them start or adjust?). As should warclaw instant kill on dismount (a high rank WvW trait ability). Just be happy with some appropriate dmg on the warclaw dismount. If that dmg kills the target fair enough. The trait can be changed to slightly more dmg maybe? Suggestions.

    All your get now in zerg fights is high-ranking WvW players boing up again and again from new folks on the opposition who clearly don't know what is going on... so AOE target as much as possible on engage and wait for them to die. It is not in the spirit of the game. And does turn many fights. I guess folks could love the 'ha ha I got away with it' moment. But other than that...

    So my opinion is that rallying is pseudo-random in that you can't really play that much of have fun with it. Try and cleave and stomp maybe. Then the guy you are stomping or cleaving boings up! From what? Who knows? But these folks who multi-rally do so very quickly. It either goes your way in a zerg or not. It makes a mockery of a warrior having to play their skills and wait for their Vengeance to rally when this is all going on.

    Also, if I rally off of a clearly not-as-knowledgeable player I feel I cheated the someone who played well to down me in the first place. Other times you just sit there downed and ignored (which can be a tactic of sorts in terms of resource starvation and run back time). In that case the engine should just increase the health-out to death after a time so you can respawn. Conversely people may choose to sit there on the ground dead just scouting... so yes lots going on with this piece.

    It is also not always clear on rally who did what to whom. If you rally. You have no real idea in a skirmish who you rallied off. There is no instrumentation. That is not even logged. Well not I can see. You can't congratulate or well-wish anyone. It just feels like a lottery where the skill you used may have counted or not. If your side wins, everyone says , well played. If you lose, they usually say we need more of some class or that people have the wrong builds or are off tag (they are probably right haha), the usual. Which says to me most folks are not sure what is going on really... they ignore the rallying piece mostly as it is nothing to do with builds. Some folks that have mentioned it in chat have termed it 'rally-wars'. That is all I have come across.

    I am fine with friends reviving you in the middle of combat as that can work for or against you depending on circumstances. Your good or bad choice.

    And I am not fussed that much if down state goes or stays (I suppose I would not miss it). I mostly get a double health bar necro as a default target when I am downed haha! But the multi-rallying and warclaw-finish nonsense just feels a far cry from the dodging weaving placing system we expect in dynamic play. So yes we should expect better.

    Probably, the reply will be who cares, anet doesn't etc. But I feel it is important to state what you have an issue with as a start. The rest of the game I can mostly live with. I know it is probably in wind-down anyway.

  • Haha, I just noticed that I posted to a PvP forum entry when this is really about WvW. Sorry guys. I just did a search on the most recent rally discussion on the forum. My bad. Ignore.

  • memausz.7264memausz.7264 Member ✭✭✭

    Remember Battlefield 3's broken assault class because med kit and 100% revives? Every TDM was just Assault class players. It was so bad that in BF4, they maxed out the health of revived players at 25% for a duration. And it made that game a lot healthier.