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Revenants.....

RamD.2958RamD.2958 Member
edited May 21, 2020 in PVP

Nerf revenants

It has little use to make this thread bigger then this as Arenanet fails time after time to do the balancing correctly.

What is your view on this and what do you like to see changed.

Comments

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    mostly herald, but renegade needs some adjusting in aoe too

    transfer facet: this needs serious nerf - huge range, unevadable, unblockable, ignores blind, nearly instant

    glint heal - give it casting time (or increase facet casting time), since rev doesn't have a lot of stab this might be big nerf though
    also it can be casted while in air - so it's very unique in the ability to heal up while jumping and kiting

    elemental blast: for the sake of the name i'd keep the condis on it, by why does this need to do so much power dmg then too?

    protection: one might think glint elite for nerfed cuz of 0 dmg, but i would say it got buffed with the cd reduction because you casually get more protection uptime since you have draconic echo ticking way too much for you. Aoe protection btw

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Top 50 has 14 or so revs

    Lol

    good players like rev, thats why there is 14 peeps there :)
    mesmer and warrior are boring for good players, thats why there is only 2 of them total :)

    I think there are actually 3 warrs, 1 mesmer and 1 ele

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Top 50 has 14 or so revs

    Lol

    good players like rev, thats why there is 14 peeps there :)
    mesmer and warrior are boring for good players, thats why there is only 2 of them total :)

    Right, I'm sure there's no mesmers because they're boring, not because they got shafted by the devs on both their elite specs.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Top 50 has 14 or so revs

    Lol

    good players like rev, thats why there is 14 peeps there :)
    mesmer and warrior are boring for good players, thats why there is only 2 of them total :)

    Right, I'm sure there's no mesmers because they're boring, not because they got shafted by the devs on both their elite specs.

    should I add in /s to the post? I though smiley faces were rather telling

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Top 50 has 14 or so revs

    Lol

    good players like rev, thats why there is 14 peeps there :)
    mesmer and warrior are boring for good players, thats why there is only 2 of them total :)

    Right, I'm sure there's no mesmers because they're boring, not because they got shafted by the devs on both their elite specs.

    should I add in /s to the post? I though smiley faces were rather telling

    My bad, you can never tell for sure.

  • balance it yourselves
    play condi thief

  • youle.5824youle.5824 Member ✭✭

    More then 1 ele I think, they dont all main it like grim but I see rod here and there from top players in ranked sometime. Also a few tempest tough maybe more for top 100. Sean ces something.. and Vallun I saw a lot in ranked this season on it. Another oe tempest as well but cant remember the name. And condi rev has way too much sustain for the dmg cc output but power rev was nerfed enough to be ok not op now. Rene is another story altogether, change need te be made for sure but without going in lenght there are many way to counter it currently so not a asap priority imo.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ye elemental blast has always been an extremely ridiculous skill.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @youle.5824 said:
    More then 1 ele I think, they dont all main it like grim but I see rod here and there from top players in ranked sometime. Also a few tempest tough maybe more for top 100. Sean ces something.. and Vallun I saw a lot in ranked this season on it. Another oe tempest as well but cant remember the name. And condi rev has way too much sustain for the dmg cc output but power rev was nerfed enough to be ok not op now. Rene is another story altogether, change need te be made for sure but without going in lenght there are many way to counter it currently so not a asap priority imo.

    I counted EU only since I only have data on that.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.

    This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.

    This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    Revenants needs a rework, not just nerfs.

    I'd settle for higher Energy costs on Utility though, if they remove Energy costs from weapon skills.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.

    This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.

    This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.

    Dear god no, shelve this terrible idea.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Revenants needs a rework, not just nerfs.

    I'd settle for higher Energy costs on Utility though, if they remove Energy costs from weapon skills.

    So you want to turn the class into a cooldown based class ? If that would happen, I would just delete my character.
    What I like in the Revenant is the energy. If it turns into a sluggish class where you use utility once in forever, I would reroll Firebrand or Weaver.

    The solution to balance Revenant is to give it more base weapons, split each core legend into 2 legends doing similar things, and reduce what the utility skills do.
    So you get more build diversity, but each utility skill does less on their own for the same cost.
    Or for a simpler way to do it : allow for each legend to be equipped twice, increase the amount of utility skills available (6 per legend), make each utility do less by itself. If you equip the same legend twice, the heal and elite skill cooldowns are lowered by 10s on legend swap.

  • Emapudapus.1307Emapudapus.1307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Top 50 has 14 or so revs

    Lol

    good players like rev, thats why there is 14 peeps there :)
    mesmer and warrior are boring for good players, thats why there is only 2 of them total :)

    Good players like rev because its broken. Proffesion stacked in every mAT.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Heralds and Renegades have always been free kills for me. What's the deal?

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Revenants needs a rework, not just nerfs.

    I'd settle for higher Energy costs on Utility though, if they remove Energy costs from weapon skills.

    So you get more build diversity, but each utility skill does less on their own for the same cost.
    Or for a simpler way to do it : allow for each legend to be equipped twice, increase the amount of utility skills available (6 per legend), make each utility do less by itself. If you equip the same legend twice, the heal and elite skill cooldowns are lowered by 10s on legend swap.

    Double herald with 20 secs cd at worse and 10secs cd at best for infuse light. Or double kalla. perma life steal + close to perma cc....So much for the build diversity.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Heralds and Renegades have always been free kills for me. What's the deal?

    But you run core Rev. People won't be happy if they need to run Rev to counter Rev.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Heralds and Renegades have always been free kills for me. What's the deal?

    But you run core Rev. People won't be happy if they need to run Rev to counter Rev.

    I ain't going to say it's because I'm running core rev only though. A lot of people have been overhyping Renegade and Herald while they have glaring weaknesses that are rarely exploited. If anything Revenants shouldn't be dominating at all because they're all played the same way most of the time. You'd think people would know by now how to play against one. They're not great duelist either compared core because of their lack of versatility, one exceeds only a bunking certain types of pressure while the other is only good at jumping on people then run away because they can't risk taking too many hits.

    I'd hate having to explain myself again on it or how it's done. Like, it's a blatant weakness to exploit when Revenants attack first because if that fails, they have half less the potential to defend themselves against anything after the initial engagement.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Revenants needs a rework, not just nerfs.

    I'd settle for higher Energy costs on Utility though, if they remove Energy costs from weapon skills.

    So you get more build diversity, but each utility skill does less on their own for the same cost.
    Or for a simpler way to do it : allow for each legend to be equipped twice, increase the amount of utility skills available (6 per legend), make each utility do less by itself. If you equip the same legend twice, the heal and elite skill cooldowns are lowered by 10s on legend swap.

    Double herald with 20 secs cd at worse and 10secs cd at best for infuse light. Or double kalla. perma life steal + close to perma cc....So much for the build diversity.

    Other solution would be to lower cooldown by 50%. Or have a separate cooldown for each "legend".
    If new legends are added, using twice the same legend wouldn't exist anyway. Otherwise, maybe elite spec legends can't be equipped twice.
    Or maybe it's not necessary and just adding core weapons and more utility doing less things on their own is enough.

    Added core weapons could be
    Mallyx: Scepter (range condition, no projectile)
    Ventari: Focus (grant Aegis to allies, grant Light Aura to allies)
    Shiro: Daggers (range thrown projectile)
    Jalis: Greatsword (defensive melee)

    Utility skill rework could be
    Ventari: Moving tablet is free, new skill that stun break if disabled or give Stability to allies (reactive or proactive use), new skill granting Barrier (spike damage reduction)
    Jalis: new skill that give Vigor to allies, new skill that daze a target
    Mallyx: A new skill pull 1 target from 1200 range, a new AoE skill apply Bleeding and Cripple
    Shiro: Impossible Odds become the elite skill, Jade Winds become a utility skill that stun 1 target for 1 second, Riposting Shadows only breaks stun and dodge, Phase Traversal is a targetable teleport that doesn't give Quickness or unblockable but remove movement impairing conditions, a new skill give unblockable, a new skill give Fury and Quickness.
    Brill: The 2 new facets could give Vigor and Retaliation, no idea what the consume could be.
    Kalla: Split Darkrazor's Daring, one skill Daze and deal damage, the other breaks stun and give Stability; split Icerazor's Ire, one deal good damage and Cripple in AoE, the other deal damage and apply Vulnerability spread on the targets in range.

    Energy cost would have to get a few balance iterations after such changes.

    It's 2 AM, I'll probably think that some of these ideas are stupid tomorrow, but feel free to give your opinion too !

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Revenants needs a rework, not just nerfs.

    I'd settle for higher Energy costs on Utility though, if they remove Energy costs from weapon skills.

    So you want to turn the class into a cooldown based class ?

    You realize that it already has cooldowns, right?
    Having no Energy on weapon skills simply gives yo more energy to use your utility skills you otherwise couldn't use due to the energy limit, while you can use your weapon freely without considering the loss of utility.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Revenants needs a rework, not just nerfs.

    I'd settle for higher Energy costs on Utility though, if they remove Energy costs from weapon skills.

    So you want to turn the class into a cooldown based class ?

    You realize that it already has cooldowns, right?
    Having no Energy on weapon skills simply gives yo more energy to use your utility skills you otherwise couldn't use due to the energy limit, while you can use your weapon freely without considering the loss of utility.

    Currently, cooldowns on the Revenant skills only exists to prevent spam abuse, which I'm fine with.
    ANet is slowly going away from cooldown by putting more and more skills on the ammo system in other classes.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Revenants needs a rework, not just nerfs.

    I'd settle for higher Energy costs on Utility though, if they remove Energy costs from weapon skills.

    So you want to turn the class into a cooldown based class ?

    You realize that it already has cooldowns, right?
    Having no Energy on weapon skills simply gives yo more energy to use your utility skills you otherwise couldn't use due to the energy limit, while you can use your weapon freely without considering the loss of utility.

    Currently, cooldowns on the Revenant skills only exists to prevent spam abuse, which I'm fine with.
    ANet is slowly going away from cooldown by putting more and more skills on the ammo system in other classes.

    The increase of Ammo skills doesn't show any "going away", since they also have cooldowns.
    Adding Ammo functionality to skills, like they did with warrior rifle, is no more than a bandaid fix.

  • TeqkOneStylez.8047TeqkOneStylez.8047 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Revenants needs a rework, not just nerfs.

    I'd settle for higher Energy costs on Utility though, if they remove Energy costs from weapon skills.

    So you want to turn the class into a cooldown based class ?

    You realize that it already has cooldowns, right?
    Having no Energy on weapon skills simply gives yo more energy to use your utility skills you otherwise couldn't use due to the energy limit, while you can use your weapon freely without considering the loss of utility.

    Currently, cooldowns on the Revenant skills only exists to prevent spam abuse, which I'm fine with.
    ANet is slowly going away from cooldown by putting more and more skills on the ammo system in other classes.

    The increase of Ammo skills doesn't show any "going away", since they also have cooldowns.
    Adding Ammo functionality to skills, like they did with warrior rifle, is no more than a bandaid fix.

    In the case of rifle its putting a bandaid on a missing limb.

    But I agree

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Koen.1327
    protection: one might think glint elite for nerfed cuz of 0 dmg, but i would say it got buffed with the cd reduction because you casually get more protection uptime since you have draconic echo ticking way too much for you. Aoe protection btw

    This isn’t just a “lower CD” issue, but also a bug with Glint’s facets issue. Currently, it’s possible in some situations to be able to re-activate a facet even if it’s supposed to be on CD. Happens a fair amount as well; not just some random bug that never occurs.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.

    This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.

    This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.

    Dear god no, shelve this terrible idea.

    Glint basically has no energy management thought needed unless you want to sit on passive boons, bringing it in line with the rest of the class is something that's been needed since day 1 of HoT. Removing energy costs from weapon abilities is needed to properly balance rev energy costs.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.

    This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.

    This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.

    Dear god no, shelve this terrible idea.

    Glint basically has no energy management thought needed unless you want to sit on passive boons, bringing it in line with the rest of the class is something that's been needed since day 1 of HoT. Removing energy costs from weapon abilities is needed to properly balance rev energy costs.

    That's the entire point of her skills; she's the energy management legend. You decide how much energy you want to dedicate to whatever boons you want, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely to deal with. She's the only legend that actually functions differently from others by only using upkeeps as primary costs, which is actually more in line with what an Espec is supposed to do. What needed to happen from day 1 was removing weapon swap and rebalancing the weapon skills like was originally intended to be which was to be useful across more builds, but they never did it.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.

    This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.

    This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.

    Dear god no, shelve this terrible idea.

    Glint basically has no energy management thought needed unless you want to sit on passive boons, bringing it in line with the rest of the class is something that's been needed since day 1 of HoT. Removing energy costs from weapon abilities is needed to properly balance rev energy costs.

    That's the entire point of her skills; she's the energy management legend. You decide how much energy you want to dedicate to whatever boons you want, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely to deal with. She's the only legend that actually functions differently from others by only using upkeeps as primary costs, which is actually more in line with what an Espec is supposed to do. What needed to happen from day 1 was removing weapon swap and rebalancing the weapon skills like was originally intended to be which was to be useful across more builds, but they never did it.

    Legit weapon swap as bandaid ruined a lot of things. they need to take it back and rebalance stuff over. Revenat is.. well was perfectly playable with just one weapon set until recent nerfs.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.

    This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.

    This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.

    Dear god no, shelve this terrible idea.

    Glint basically has no energy management thought needed unless you want to sit on passive boons, bringing it in line with the rest of the class is something that's been needed since day 1 of HoT. Removing energy costs from weapon abilities is needed to properly balance rev energy costs.

    That's the entire point of her skills; she's the energy management legend. You decide how much energy you want to dedicate to whatever boons you want, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely to deal with. She's the only legend that actually functions differently from others by only using upkeeps as primary costs, which is actually more in line with what an Espec is supposed to do. What needed to happen from day 1 was removing weapon swap and rebalancing the weapon skills like was originally intended to be which was to be useful across more builds, but they never did it.

    Legit weapon swap as bandaid ruined a lot of things. they need to take it back and rebalance stuff over. Revenat is.. well was perfectly playable with just one weapon set until recent nerfs.

    It still works fine with only one weapon set.
    Since they ruined Hammer, I hardly swap in PvE anymore.
    In PvP I don't even have anything meaningful to swap to on my condi build.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    Maybe it's because I spent so much time playing one, but I don't struggle much with revs. I've learned not to hit IL, to pressure them when they've used utilities due to high energy costs, to bait out stunbreaks from them because even if they do break stun, they've significantly limited their own offensive pressure. I've learned to watch their boons. If they don't gain resistance after using an elite, they're not running rune of res, and they're going to be weak to conditions. If they're Mallyx, I kite them and avoid their obvious animations on moves like mace 3 and axe 5.

    What I would like to see done:

    Rev is strong, but plenty exploitable. If it needs anything, it's reworks rather than nerfs. Sword 3 needs to have double the range on the after cast so it doesn't fail to latch, Staff 5 needs the self root removed so it's aimable (keep the windup), Shortbow and Hammer could both use reworks. Hammer only sees play in WvW and is mostly dead everywhere else, limiting an already small pool of weapons.

    As a trade off for these quality of life fixes, I'd happily give up weapon swap. Even in PvE, Rev isn't in desperate need of weapon swap anyway. So long as the weapons themselves are well designed. You spend your time camping sword as Renegade and PHerald and only use staff when you need CC. Crev can be played viably while camping Mace/Axe.

    Staff would need to be redone in order to make it a better stand-alone weapon.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.

    This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.

    This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.

    Dear god no, shelve this terrible idea.

    Glint basically has no energy management thought needed unless you want to sit on passive boons, bringing it in line with the rest of the class is something that's been needed since day 1 of HoT. Removing energy costs from weapon abilities is needed to properly balance rev energy costs.

    That's the entire point of her skills; she's the energy management legend. You decide how much energy you want to dedicate to whatever boons you want, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely to deal with. She's the only legend that actually functions differently from others by only using upkeeps as primary costs, which is actually more in line with what an Espec is supposed to do. What needed to happen from day 1 was removing weapon swap and rebalancing the weapon skills like was originally intended to be which was to be useful across more builds, but they never did it.

    I played rev with no weapon swap, it wasn't good, the only way to get around it would be for weapon skills to change based on legend used which would be a lot of work every time a new elite spec came which would be unmanageable long term for the dev team. Think about it, every class that has a single weapon has a way to change it's weapon skills or gets extra somewhere else which was missing from rev at it's core concept and couldn't be added without essentially copying another class.

    "Energy management legend" pull the other one, it was supposed to be about that but it's ended up being the most energy efficient legend by far without needing to really think about energy management and this was before draconic echo was added. Glint needs a drastic energy cost change to bring it closer in line with core for energy management or it will forever be a first pick and the rest of the class and it's problems will remain covered by Glint.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.

    This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.

    This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.

    Dear god no, shelve this terrible idea.

    Glint basically has no energy management thought needed unless you want to sit on passive boons, bringing it in line with the rest of the class is something that's been needed since day 1 of HoT. Removing energy costs from weapon abilities is needed to properly balance rev energy costs.

    That's the entire point of her skills; she's the energy management legend. You decide how much energy you want to dedicate to whatever boons you want, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely to deal with. She's the only legend that actually functions differently from others by only using upkeeps as primary costs, which is actually more in line with what an Espec is supposed to do. What needed to happen from day 1 was removing weapon swap and rebalancing the weapon skills like was originally intended to be which was to be useful across more builds, but they never did it.

    I played rev with no weapon swap, it wasn't good, the only way to get around it would be for weapon skills to change based on legend used which would be a lot of work every time a new elite spec came which would be unmanageable long term for the dev team. Think about it, every class that has a single weapon has a way to change it's weapon skills or gets extra somewhere else which was missing from rev at it's core concept and couldn't be added without essentially copying another class.

    "Energy management legend" pull the other one, it was supposed to be about that but it's ended up being the most energy efficient legend by far without needing to really think about energy management and this was before draconic echo was added. Glint needs a drastic energy cost change to bring it closer in line with core for energy management or it will forever be a first pick and the rest of the class and it's problems will remain covered by Glint.

    I played back with no weapon swap too and I know it was bad, but it's because half the weapons were poorly designed and were static. Utility skills were meant to be a lot stronger to compensate but they were also poorly balanced too with a few exceptions. Ventari was even more of a clunky mess, Jalis was pretty much unusable, Mallyx with self conditioning was a lot of fun but his kit made no sense, and Shiro was by far the best designed. They didn't fix the issues with the design and just slapped weapon swap, but suddenly staff is monstrously OP because you have a second set. Hammer always sucked outside of WvW CoR spam.

    Like I said, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely, but Glint being as drastically different as she is was the point of her being an elite spec, even though I believe she should have been a core legend tied to Invocation. She's good because she covers more issues than energy, she provides easy access to important boons and has powerful skills on top of it. She can be good and the rest of the class balanced better as well, butchering Glint will do no good by itself.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.

    This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.

    This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.

    Dear god no, shelve this terrible idea.

    Glint basically has no energy management thought needed unless you want to sit on passive boons, bringing it in line with the rest of the class is something that's been needed since day 1 of HoT. Removing energy costs from weapon abilities is needed to properly balance rev energy costs.

    That's the entire point of her skills; she's the energy management legend. You decide how much energy you want to dedicate to whatever boons you want, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely to deal with. She's the only legend that actually functions differently from others by only using upkeeps as primary costs, which is actually more in line with what an Espec is supposed to do. What needed to happen from day 1 was removing weapon swap and rebalancing the weapon skills like was originally intended to be which was to be useful across more builds, but they never did it.

    I played rev with no weapon swap, it wasn't good, the only way to get around it would be for weapon skills to change based on legend used which would be a lot of work every time a new elite spec came which would be unmanageable long term for the dev team. Think about it, every class that has a single weapon has a way to change it's weapon skills or gets extra somewhere else which was missing from rev at it's core concept and couldn't be added without essentially copying another class.

    "Energy management legend" pull the other one, it was supposed to be about that but it's ended up being the most energy efficient legend by far without needing to really think about energy management and this was before draconic echo was added. Glint needs a drastic energy cost change to bring it closer in line with core for energy management or it will forever be a first pick and the rest of the class and it's problems will remain covered by Glint.

    I played back with no weapon swap too and I know it was bad, but it's because half the weapons were poorly designed and were static. Utility skills were meant to be a lot stronger to compensate but they were also poorly balanced too with a few exceptions. Ventari was even more of a clunky mess, Jalis was pretty much unusable, Mallyx with self conditioning was a lot of fun but his kit made no sense, and Shiro was by far the best designed. They didn't fix the issues with the design and just slapped weapon swap, but suddenly staff is monstrously OP because you have a second set. Hammer always sucked outside of WvW CoR spam.

    Like I said, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely, but Glint being as drastically different as she is was the point of her being an elite spec, even though I believe she should have been a core legend tied to Invocation. She's good because she covers more issues than energy, she provides easy access to important boons and has powerful skills on top of it. She can be good and the rest of the class balanced better as well, butchering Glint will do no good by itself.

    They didn't fix it because it was a flawed design to begin with. Think about it, if you offload everything onto the utility slots because you have only 5 weapon skills you have to put defences baked into every weapon set and you have to massively bloat all the utility skills to make up for the plethora of skills every other class has as well as the ability to mix and match. This then leads to people complaining that they get hit with these bloated abilities because there's nowhere else to spread the features to due to the legend design, it's bad enough with weapon swap allowing the devs to spread out defensive and offensive skills but it would be a whole lot worse if there was no weapon swap.

    As for Glint, who said I was butchering Glint? I wasn't touching the ability damage, function or anything but the energy management side and it was very specifically targeted at preventing people hitting facet of light and sitting on it with no regard to energy management. I want there to be a second (or even a first) thought about which facets you have up and if you might need it soon instead of activate the facets and not have any real drawback for getting those boons or for using them off CD like with elements and strength. If you feel the numbers are off that's fine but there does need to be a higher cost to glint utilities, front loading the cost means you can't fall into a trap of being unable to consume facets and get energy back if you used too many facets which a cost on consume effect would do.