My Rambling Thoughts About Strike Missions. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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My Rambling Thoughts About Strike Missions.

I've been playing SM's (Strike Mission) for a few weeks now as a FB, running my own Minstrel's healing build you'd normally see in WvW squads and more recently a Diviner's boon support. Both builds I really enjoy and help the SM groups I join. I know how to play my profession very well and love it.
No matter how aware I am of how other professions are built and how I support them in a group setting, I understand my specific Role; it's difficult to be ridiculed for my builds I know are optimal for what they're meant to achieve support wise. I haven't a problem with a person's personal preference for their LFG. I take issue with me being mocked for builds that aren't Meta to a sub section of other players and I'm just expected to be dead weight- not worth understanding, not worth teaching, not worth a second thought. I hope ya'll can imagine that kind of attitude and how unhealthy it is.
What is this thread? Someone with bad experiences?
I don't really know. I'm just disappointed in ArenaNet when it comes down to my reasoning, it's just feedback for them.

If ya'll have rambling thoughts about your experience with SM's then feel free. :smile:

<1

Comments

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭

    @Tearthy Flame.1463 said:
    I'm just disappointed in ArenaNet when it comes down to my reasoning, it's just feedback for them.

    And what do you expect them to do in response to your feedback? They cannot simply release a "balance patch" for adjusting player behavior/ mindset.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    Nothing wrong with playing off meta. Just dont join groups looking for meta builds. If you see a group asking for raid LI, or specific roles like 'qfb, hfb' stay away as they are specifically asking for meta builds and wont be happy if you join. Most other groups should have no problem with what you are running and I'd advice report and block if they flame you.

    As far as your builds go, minstrels is fine in strikes/fracs as there is no aggro mechanic. If you ever plan to raid however, you need to be at 1k toughness only, otherwise you may steal aggro from the tank and mess up the raid.

    Diviners is kinda a wasted stat on firebrand unless you are the only source of might/fury as you can quite easily upkeep 100% quickness, and stab where necessary, with base stats.

    Im not sure what anet can do about it, other than ban players who harass others but that takes time and alot of evidence.

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    There are a lot of players with a very closed mindset. The type of players that only run meta builds, and often do not know how to stay alive with them, or how the builds are supposed to work. I've tried to convince some of them to make their own builds and learn how to create a proper build of their own, but it is wasted effort.

    There are a lot of custom builds out there that are not meta, but could very well out perform current meta builds. I can't even count the number of times I've seen players drop like flies, while I was the last person standing. So many people that just run berserker builds, and then die almost instantly.

    In general, while its ok to add a few defensive stats to your build while you are learning, its best to stick mostly to full glass cannon. Other wise you get into bad habits of ignoring mechanics and relying on your toughness to carry you. This will make it 10x harder if you want to progress into more challenging content.

    Off meta builds rarely perform better than meta, even on average players (condi weaver ect being the exception) as long as the player understands where their dps is coming from and doesnt mindlessly follow rotation. I agree there are too many people who dont bother to actually learn the build and just copy it. I also agree that many people overestimate themselves and join groups they arent ready for. However being the last man standing doesnt always mean you are playing well. For example, usually rangers playing longbow at max range will die last, but they definitely arent contributing much.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    There are a lot of players with a very closed mindset. The type of players that only run meta builds, and often do not know how to stay alive with them, or how the builds are supposed to work. I've tried to convince some of them to make their own builds and learn how to create a proper build of their own, but it is wasted effort.

    There are a lot of custom builds out there that are not meta, but could very well out perform current meta builds. I can't even count the number of times I've seen players drop like flies, while I was the last person standing. So many people that just run berserker builds, and then die almost instantly.

    This x1000.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Nothing wrong with playing off meta. Just dont join groups looking for meta builds. If you see a group asking for raid LI, or specific roles like 'qfb, hfb' stay away as they are specifically asking for meta builds and wont be happy if you join. Most other groups should have no problem with what you are running and I'd advice report and block if they flame you.

    As far as your builds go, minstrels is fine in strikes/fracs as there is no aggro mechanic. If you ever plan to raid however, you need to be at 1k toughness only, otherwise you may steal aggro from the tank and mess up the raid.

    Diviners is kinda a wasted stat on firebrand unless you are the only source of might/fury as you can quite easily upkeep 100% quickness, and stab where necessary, with base stats.

    Im not sure what anet can do about it, other than ban players who harass others but that takes time and alot of evidence.

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    There are a lot of players with a very closed mindset. The type of players that only run meta builds, and often do not know how to stay alive with them, or how the builds are supposed to work. I've tried to convince some of them to make their own builds and learn how to create a proper build of their own, but it is wasted effort.

    There are a lot of custom builds out there that are not meta, but could very well out perform current meta builds. I can't even count the number of times I've seen players drop like flies, while I was the last person standing. So many people that just run berserker builds, and then die almost instantly.

    In general, while its ok to add a few defensive stats to your build while you are learning, its best to stick mostly to full glass cannon. Other wise you get into bad habits of ignoring mechanics and relying on your toughness to carry you. This will make it 10x harder if you want to progress into more challenging content.

    Off meta builds rarely perform better than meta, even on average players (condi weaver ect being the exception) as long as the player understands where their dps is coming from and doesnt mindlessly follow rotation. I agree there are too many people who dont bother to actually learn the build and just copy it. I also agree that many people overestimate themselves and join groups they arent ready for. However being the last man standing doesnt always mean you are playing well. For example, usually rangers playing longbow at max range will die last, but they definitely arent contributing much.

    When you're pugging, the game changes a bit. I ran a heal druid build on jormag and it was a poop show. Auramancer did way better, 100% up time on protection gives people a little more time to react to mechanics and can be the difference between a wipe or success. I have 95% bd on my tempest and can provide 25 might when pressure is lower. Also tempest has better heal range which helps with the last phase.

    Some of the raid strategies the community had built around super high dps are actually quite fragile and not very learning new stuff friendly, which is what strikes are supposed to be.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The main thing I don't like about SMs is that they (as its own content) don't really seem to have a target audience which, granted, wasn't A-Nets intention to begin with. There is nothing inherent to the content structure of both dungeons and raids that turns of the average player so the problem they're trying to adress with SMs is esentialy non existent. Once most players got the skins they wanted it's esentially going to be just another round of dead content.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like strike missions.

    I will also add that playing a build you know is better than playing a build you dont know or cant execute the rotation of.

    Bottom line: are you fulfilling your role? If so, WIN. If not, change and learn until you are.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    Talking about meta builds in the context of pug strikes is kinda silly. Raid meta assumes optimal conditions and skill level in order to achieve the best result. Best is measured by speed and rate of success.

    In pug strikes you're rarely ever in optimal conditions with top skill level players. You need to assume that half the squad likely has no idea what the dodge button is. If we make this assumption to talk about what's best in slot, minstrel firebrand is more than adequate, as it provides you extra tankiness to cover the mistakes of both yourself and the squad while still fulfilling the healer role.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Need to be in the group then to comment but;
    What happened or what caused it?
    How did it start or triggered it?
    How did they know your stat and traits?

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I do strikes daily and have never seen people mocked for offmeta, but some people play really subpar stuff which gets even worse because they don't stack for boons at all (those max range greatsword mesmers, edge of the arena longbow rangers with movement signet, hammer revenant, pistol thieves) which gets them kicked mainly in Whisper of Jormag.

    This.

    If you are off stack, do 4k dps as damage dealer and die every 20 seconds, people have no issue with you being off meta. They have an issue with you being terrible.

    Players need to stop pretending that being off meta is the same as being bad at the game/content. There are enough players who run useful off meta builds and are doing just fine. There is also a lot of players which are simply bad, no matter if on a meta build or not.

    There is no gear check in Strike Missions, most off-meta builds were only noticed by their low DPS, low healing, or low boon upkeep.
    Most commonly in Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag when their supposed healer doesn't heal, or their "Heal Scourge" never revive, causing a group wipe.

    Many casual players thought by claiming to be playing "support class" could offset burdens of having to perform a DPS number, unknowing that there is more responsibility involved.

    As for OP's case, he might has to double check his skill sets for PvE.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Many casual players thought by claiming to be playing "support class" could offset burdens of having to perform a DPS number, unknowing that there is more responsibility involved.

    There are far more "experienced" players pretending they are DPS and clocking less than 5k/sec on Shiverpeaks Pass than there are "casuals" hiding behind a support role.
    Players of all levels of engagement underperform.
    The "casual" label here isn't relevant and perpetrates a stale meme.

    As for OP's case, he might has to double check his skill sets for PvE.

    Assuming the OP's story is true about being "build shamed". The OP certainly contained a healthy dose of hyperbole.

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I do strikes daily and have never seen people mocked for offmeta, but some people play really subpar stuff which gets even worse because they don't stack for boons at all (those max range greatsword mesmers, edge of the arena longbow rangers with movement signet, hammer revenant, pistol thieves) which gets them kicked mainly in Whisper of Jormag.

    I would take a hammer rev or a pistol thief any day over some of the things I see running squads.
    People who play Druid and generate zero might.
    Healbrands who generate no boons.
    Alacrity Renegades who are obviously not running Righteous Rebel.
    And I see way more of these than I see idiot longbow Rangers. And that ranger usually responds pretty quick to "Hey ranger, come huddle with us, grab some boons and heals".
    But that player pretending to be an Alac Renegade and cannot keep the boon up because they are not traited/geared correctly are far more numerous and deficient on an absolutely fundamental level that cannot be addressed with a quick call out mid-fight.
    You can't tell them that they are doing anything wrong because "Alac Rev is meta".

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Many casual players thought by claiming to be playing "support class" could offset burdens of having to perform a DPS number, unknowing that there is more responsibility involved.

    There are far more "experienced" players pretending they are DPS and clocking less than 5k/sec on Shiverpeaks Pass than there are "casuals" hiding behind a support role.
    Players of all levels of engagement underperform.
    The "casual" label here isn't relevant and perpetrates a stale meme.

    As for OP's case, he might has to double check his skill sets for PvE.

    Assuming the OP's story is true about being "build shamed". The OP certainly contained a healthy dose of hyperbole.

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I do strikes daily and have never seen people mocked for offmeta, but some people play really subpar stuff which gets even worse because they don't stack for boons at all (those max range greatsword mesmers, edge of the arena longbow rangers with movement signet, hammer revenant, pistol thieves) which gets them kicked mainly in Whisper of Jormag.

    I would take a hammer rev or a pistol thief any day over some of the things I see running squads.
    People who play Druid and generate zero might.
    Healbrands who generate no boons.
    Alacrity Renegades who are obviously not running Righteous Rebel.
    And I see way more of these than I see idiot longbow Rangers. And that ranger usually responds pretty quick to "Hey ranger, come huddle with us, grab some boons and heals".
    But that player pretending to be an Alac Renegade and cannot keep the boon up because they are not traited/geared correctly are far more numerous and deficient on an absolutely fundamental level that cannot be addressed with a quick call out mid-fight.
    You can't tell them that they are doing anything wrong because "Alac Rev is meta".

    If you can call out "get in stack for boons and heals" why can you not call out "hey rev alac???" seems to me second line is quicker.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    If you can call out "get in stack for boons and heals" why can you not call out "hey rev alac???" seems to me second line is quicker.

    It would also be quicker and less abrasive to use only one question mark, would it not?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    If you can call out "get in stack for boons and heals" why can you not call out "hey rev alac???" seems to me second line is quicker.

    It would also be quicker and less abrasive to use only one question mark, would it not?

    I guess it depends on how you see it.
    All bad things come in 3, aint that the saying?
    So since n alac is bad I go with 3 ?

  • Some of my best experiences in strike missions and fractals, have been with off-meta groups that were doing the content for the first time, with a build they felt comfortable with. And yet, I have just as often been in groups pretending to be experienced, running meta builds, and being on the floor through out most of the fight.

    As I tried to tell these players: Your dps is 0 if you're on the floor, plus you also lower the dps of your party members, who constantly have to revive you.
    No one cares about your meta berserker build with its super high dps, if you can't keep yourself on your feet. No fingerpointing, or yelling for an extra healer to carry you, will make up for just being bad. Strike Mission do not require optimized builds or even super high dps. But you should at least be able to stay alive.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    Some of my best experiences in strike missions and fractals, have been with off-meta groups that were doing the content for the first time, with a build they felt comfortable with. And yet, I have just as often been in groups pretending to be experienced, running meta builds, and being on the floor through out most of the fight.

    As I tried to tell these players: Your dps is 0 if you're on the floor, plus you also lower the dps of your party members, who constantly have to revive you.
    No one cares about your meta berserker build with its super high dps, if you can't keep yourself on your feet. No fingerpointing, or yelling for an extra healer to carry you, will make up for just being bad. Strike Mission do not require optimized builds or even super high dps. But you should at least be able to stay alive.

    Did those experiences include T4's and Boneskinner, just out of curiosity?
    Shiverpeaks, Kodans and Fraenir are doable on pretty much any comp as long as there's a semi-healer. Whisper is also chill as long as there's 2-3 healers and people don't play bomberman/chainsweeper too much. Boneskinner, however, requires extremely strong heals for the overheal strat (the incoming damage is pretty much like no-shroom Slothasor which Kitty's also done).
    Pug meta for Whisper and Boneskinner is actually bit different from raid pug meta though quickness, alacrity, might and fury are still wanted but druid+chrono is horrible at them compared to auramancer, healbrand and alacrigade. Healbrand is everyone's choice of healer for T4 fractals for its carry power, though.
    BUT.
    At Boneskinner dps does matter. Most of pug squads have only 5ish pure dpsers and Boneskinner still has a dps check which isn't super-high (though good luck surviving 10 minutes with that damage pressure if you only do the bare minimum dps required) but still higher than what an usual soldier's geared player with random open-world traits could pull off (though Kitty can do enough dps with soldier's gears but that's not the point). And also, defensive stats aren't very helpful at either Boneskinner or Whisper. At Bones for that aforementioned damage pressure you anyway need healers for and at Whisper due to mechs mostly insta-downing peoples if failed regardless of vitality/toughness.

    Mostly the survival issues is either dpser failing mechs a lot, others players failing the mechs on you (chains and bombs) or healers not healing enough (many druids enter CA once a minute instead of off-cooldown, which is 9 seconds, as example). If you fail the mechs in squad content, you go down be squishy or be tanky. If you go down, you do no deeps be squishy or be tanky. But do power deeps, do be squishy. Do condi deeps, do be tankyblazer's. Or Carrion's budget build. (Search youtube for "gw2 carrion budget Kitty")
    Worst combination, though, is player with metabuild but no understanding. As a wise man once said: " If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle. "

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    Some of my best experiences in strike missions and fractals, have been with off-meta groups that were doing the content for the first time, with a build they felt comfortable with. And yet, I have just as often been in groups pretending to be experienced, running meta builds, and being on the floor through out most of the fight.

    As I tried to tell these players: Your dps is 0 if you're on the floor, plus you also lower the dps of your party members, who constantly have to revive you.
    No one cares about your meta berserker build with its super high dps, if you can't keep yourself on your feet. No fingerpointing, or yelling for an extra healer to carry you, will make up for just being bad. Strike Mission do not require optimized builds or even super high dps. But you should at least be able to stay alive.

    :P why choose survivability over damage, when you can just do the mechs correctly in berserker gear and do more damage > faster kills > everyone are more likely to survive.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    Some of my best experiences in strike missions and fractals, have been with off-meta groups that were doing the content for the first time, with a build they felt comfortable with. And yet, I have just as often been in groups pretending to be experienced, running meta builds, and being on the floor through out most of the fight.

    As I tried to tell these players: Your dps is 0 if you're on the floor, plus you also lower the dps of your party members, who constantly have to revive you.
    No one cares about your meta berserker build with its super high dps, if you can't keep yourself on your feet. No fingerpointing, or yelling for an extra healer to carry you, will make up for just being bad. Strike Mission do not require optimized builds or even super high dps. But you should at least be able to stay alive.

    :P why choose survivability over damage, when you can just do the mechs correctly in berserker gear and do more damage > faster kills > everyone are more likely to survive.

    Because pugs.

  • I was surprised to see many thoughtful comments on this thread, I'm thankful for the positive words and helpful information, I hope it helps other people. Reading though this thread gave me some clarity on what I wanted from speaking my mind, I needed to open up a dialogue that's based on understanding and acceptance.
    I like that everyone here has very different ideas to talk about and have opinions- rambling on about the community culture in SM's, the ignorant mentalities and also how much good will is in the community.

    But I'm posting again to give more context to ya'll's general query: How I went about doing pug SM's.
    My main goal from the start was getting the Runic Cape and yes I did get it. Now in the real world I had to get past my anxiety at first 'cause life has been difficult recently, yet I push my limits so I can grow and learn and not feel stuck. But please know that's not all the painfully long details about myself. Anyway, I did have a very high rate of good groups with nice people and that's far more positive than the two times I was shamed for my build.
    The first bad experience was from another pug (playing Firebrand) within a group I was clearing bosses with, while using my Minstrel's FB, and right when I joined this group I clearly stated "Minstrel's FB/Boon/Healer" because I do understand I'm most likely not running a commonly known support build- they didn't really think anything of it I guess. Yet the ridicule occurred later (3 or so boss kills), I was asked by the Firebrand Pug to ping my build, I did so, being called dead weight by the person and how wrong my build is. I was not kicked from that group but that's the reaction I got for my build existing.
    The second experience is more straight forward, I only said "Minstrel's Heal or Diviner's Support Build". The commander just typed W.T.F. and kicked me. Kicking me is fine but being reacted to like that didn't help my depression after the last one... Again, along the lines of feeling worthless.

    I started this discussion with feeling down and helpless; not knowing how to properly open up talking about the subject of toxic behavior in SM content and why it bothers me to see this happening. I think SM's don't have the same structure as raiding yet ArenaNet has made Strike content really confusing to play.

    So now I'll leave ya'll with a little more added context, what my FB build is:
    Full Minstrel's of Ascended Attribute Rarity / Superior Rune of the Monk / Staff / Superior Sigil of Concentration & Transference / Firebrand Build Template:
    [&DQExOQ0ePjpLF0sXUxdTF3oWehYtAS0BiRKJEgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

    Thank you for reading this long winded post, love ya'll, bye. <3

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Snip

    The second experience is more straight forward, I only said "Minstrel's Heal or Diviner's Support Build". The commander just typed W.T.F. and kicked me. Kicking me is fine but being reacted to like that didn't help my depression after the last one... Again, along the lines of feeling worthless.

    Snip

    All well and good with the rest of the post but this second commander what were they looking for?
    If it was a quickbrand they arent looking for a third or 4th healer so their reaction is understandable, they need both the quickness and damage from said quickbrand.
    About the highlighted letters you may have been the 2-5 or even 10th person that commander had to deal with joining with wrong requirement.
    Even have gotten flack when kicking guild mates in my squad from random pugs thinking Im harsh.
    And thats after my mates telling me to kick over discord becouse they forgot to leave =P

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    Lol I don't see what's wrong with your build if you're just doing a strike mission. It has quickness and heals.
    You could probably run virtues over valor for battle presence but as long as you're running mace+shield you pretty much fulfill most of your duty (quickness/heals/aegis) as the meta version has axe+shield so you have similar heal output without battle presence but lack fury output without axe or sword as a swap. You could have ran Bow of Truth or Stand your Ground instead of the Retreat skill (recommend wall of reflection for kodan), but that would be nitpicking (it still has aegis). Mantra of Lore is useful when there's condis and should be dropped when there isn't , so it's by encounter.

    edit: add note on fury

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    You should just ignore those elitists and play what you want in PuG content.
    Don't join any squad with unreasonable elitist requirements.

    As opposed to zombyturtle.5980, I think it's totally fine to bring defensive stats.
    I myself run full Marauder with Wurm runes on my DH.
    It lets me survive longer, thus dealing damage longer. Since I hardly stay over 90%, Wurm runes also outperform Scholar for me.

    I think a DPS who stays alive and dealing slightly sup-optimal damage is worth much more than a Meta-DPS who dies 10% into the fight.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tearthy Flame.1463 said:
    The first bad experience was from another pug (playing Firebrand) within a group I was clearing bosses with, while using my Minstrel's FB, and right when I joined this group I clearly stated "Minstrel's FB/Boon/Healer" because I do understand I'm most likely not running a commonly known support build- they didn't really think anything of it I guess. Yet the ridicule occurred later (3 or so boss kills), I was asked by the Firebrand Pug to ping my build, I did so, being called dead weight by the person and how wrong my build is. I was not kicked from that group but that's the reaction I got for my build existing.

    This reminds me of a situation I was in. Trying to do Slothasor (not a SM) a guild member was using a Power Reaper build, which at the time wasn't exactly "meta". Opened the squad on LFG to get some pugs to fill last slots and got a Dragonhunter (There were 4 Dragonhunters in the squad, kind of meta dps on Slothasor at the time - probably even now). One of the Dragonhunters had the Heavy Legendary Armor and said "Whaaa a Power Reaper?". Despite that "objection" the run started. The Power Reaper outdpsed all four Dragonhunters, in fact was at the top with quite a margin from 2nd place, while the guy with the Legendary Armor was 3rd among the Dragonhunters. Funniest part, the Power Reaper (since she had lower dps potential) was eating mushroom number 2. Yet she did more damage than all meta Dragonhunters (to be fair one of the Dragonhunters was also eating a shroom, but not the "legendary armor DH"). I was the Druid in the squad and was laughing inside when I saw the arcdps results. The Legendary armor DH didn't even speak at the end, because he probably had arcdps running waiting to shame the Reaper, but the... results weren't what he expected.

    I'd be curious to see what arcdps had to say about your build compared to that Firebrand pug. What build/gear you use is not always a clear indication of performance, as I've seen so many times in my Raid runs. You were told you were "Dead weight" because nobody in the group was using a dps meter, if they did (and provided you know well how to play your build) the results might've been enlightening.

  • @Cerioth.7062 said:
    :P why choose survivability over damage, when you can just do the mechs correctly in berserker gear and do more damage > faster kills > everyone are more likely to survive.

    In a perfect world, everyone would be doing the mechs correctly in zerker gear, and we all would have max dps. In reality, a lot of zerkers fall early in the fight, and then need to be revived by their party members (which can then get more people downed). Most pugs will have people in it that don't know the mechanics that well, but DO run a build they found on a website, which then gets them killed. For Grenth's sake, just bring some survivability. Even if its just one defensive skill.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tearthy Flame.1463 said:
    But I'm posting again to give more context to ya'll's general query: How I went about doing pug SM's.
    My main goal from the start was getting the Runic Cape and yes I did get it.

    Grats. Seriously.... getting that cape is a bit of a grind.

    Anyway, I did have a very high rate of good groups with nice people and that's far more positive than the two times I was shamed for my build.

    This may sound cold and unsympathetic, but two incidents of toxicity in what would have been 100 strikes?
    It really doesn't sound worthy of the disappointment you heaped on Arenanet in your OP.

    The second experience is more straight forward, I only said "Minstrel's Heal or Diviner's Support Build". The commander just typed W.T.F. and kicked me. Kicking me is fine but being reacted to like that didn't help my depression after the last one... Again, along the lines of feeling worthless.

    Never allow your worth to be judged by another human being...particularly one who gets booty-bothered about a video game.
    Never allow your judgement of self worth to be predicated on your acceptance by others... particularly in a video game.

    So now I'll leave ya'll with a little more added context, what my FB build is:
    Full Minstrel's of Ascended Attribute Rarity / Superior Rune of the Monk / Staff / Superior Sigil of Concentration & Transference / Firebrand Build Template:
    [&DQExOQ0ePjpLF0sXUxdTF3oWehYtAS0BiRKJEgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

    Build is fine, gear is fine. If you played it right I would absolutely want you on my squad.
    I'm not sure "Retreat" is big value on Strikes but I sure wouldn't quibble about it.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    If you want to avoid "elitists" just play public pugs. You can't get kicked and people generally only complain if you're AFK or repeatedly screw up the mechanics. Dunno if this is true for any of the other SMs but Forging Steel doesn't even have a fail condition iirc.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    :P why choose survivability over damage, when you can just do the mechs correctly in berserker gear and do more damage > faster kills > everyone are more likely to survive.

    In a perfect world, everyone would be doing the mechs correctly in zerker gear, and we all would have max dps. In reality, a lot of zerkers fall early in the fight, and then need to be revived by their party members (which can then get more people downed). Most pugs will have people in it that don't know the mechanics that well, but DO run a build they found on a website, which then gets them killed. For Grenth's sake, just bring some survivability. Even if its just one defensive skill.

    I dunno, I yet have not had any struggles playing any of my raid builds in strike missions and staying alive. Neither have my team mates - and I havent demanded LI requirements or anything.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    :P why choose survivability over damage, when you can just do the mechs correctly in berserker gear and do more damage > faster kills > everyone are more likely to survive.

    In a perfect world, everyone would be doing the mechs correctly in zerker gear, and we all would have max dps. In reality, a lot of zerkers fall early in the fight, and then need to be revived by their party members (which can then get more people downed). Most pugs will have people in it that don't know the mechanics that well, but DO run a build they found on a website, which then gets them killed. For Grenth's sake, just bring some survivability. Even if its just one defensive skill.

    I dunno, I yet have not had any struggles playing any of my raid builds in strike missions and staying alive. Neither have my team mates - and I havent demanded LI requirements or anything.

    Yet surely you can realize that not everyone plays flawlessly and that there is a spectrum?

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:
    If you want to avoid "elitists" just play public pugs. You can't get kicked and people generally only complain if you're AFK or repeatedly screw up the mechanics.

    This is pretty bad advice.
    The "Public" option for Strike missions takes forever to form a group and typically attracts players who don't understand the game, the encounter, often how to ready up. Players who have completed a few Strike Missions will always use the LFG tool, using "Public" will leave your team short of the two or three experienced people that make any strike that much easier.
    Using the "Public" option puts the player in an absolute wasteland.

    Dunno if this is true for any of the other SMs but Forging Steel doesn't even have a fail condition iirc.

    All Strikes have a fail condition.
    Forging Steel is not a Strike.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Forging Steel is not a Strike.

    It might not be by your own definition but for the game it is. The "Prototype Harmonizing Mist Loom" says: "Unlocks an achievement to earn a cape through Strike Missions." and Forging Steel definitely counts.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    :P why choose survivability over damage, when you can just do the mechs correctly in berserker gear and do more damage > faster kills > everyone are more likely to survive.

    In a perfect world, everyone would be doing the mechs correctly in zerker gear, and we all would have max dps. In reality, a lot of zerkers fall early in the fight, and then need to be revived by their party members (which can then get more people downed). Most pugs will have people in it that don't know the mechanics that well, but DO run a build they found on a website, which then gets them killed. For Grenth's sake, just bring some survivability. Even if its just one defensive skill.

    I dunno, I yet have not had any struggles playing any of my raid builds in strike missions and staying alive. Neither have my team mates - and I havent demanded LI requirements or anything.

    Yet surely you can realize that not everyone plays flawlessly and that there is a spectrum?

    Playing flawlessly is not even a necessity. Having even decent three supports will get you safely through Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Playing flawlessly is not even a necessity. Having even decent three supports will get you safely through Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag.

    Having ten average DPS that play how they want and somewhat know the mechanics get through the Whisper of Jormag Strike mission just fine, too.
    There is no need for support or Meta in that one.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Playing flawlessly is not even a necessity. Having even decent three supports will get you safely through Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag.

    Having ten average DPS that play how they want and somewhat know the mechanics get through the Whisper of Jormag Strike mission just fine, too.
    There is no need for support or Meta in that one.

    Yeah, there isnt that much damage pressure as long as people just chill. I feel like many dont realise how easy Whisper is as long as you just dont unnecessarily move around or stand in the boss hitbox.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    :P why choose survivability over damage, when you can just do the mechs correctly in berserker gear and do more damage > faster kills > everyone are more likely to survive.

    In a perfect world, everyone would be doing the mechs correctly in zerker gear, and we all would have max dps. In reality, a lot of zerkers fall early in the fight, and then need to be revived by their party members (which can then get more people downed). Most pugs will have people in it that don't know the mechanics that well, but DO run a build they found on a website, which then gets them killed. For Grenth's sake, just bring some survivability. Even if its just one defensive skill.

    I dunno, I yet have not had any struggles playing any of my raid builds in strike missions and staying alive. Neither have my team mates - and I havent demanded LI requirements or anything.

    Yet surely you can realize that not everyone plays flawlessly and that there is a spectrum?

    Playing flawlessly is not even a necessity. Having even decent three supports will get you safely through Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag.

    Well sure, having 3 support that cover all mistakes from casuals can do it. But that in and of itself is assuming a lot about composition of a pug and the support themselves. It sounds like you are bringing your raiding and some of your raiding friends to strikes and are saying you dont have any problems covering deficits in your group. Obviously your set up hasnt experienced issues. I dont think the OP is speaking about that.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    :P why choose survivability over damage, when you can just do the mechs correctly in berserker gear and do more damage > faster kills > everyone are more likely to survive.

    In a perfect world, everyone would be doing the mechs correctly in zerker gear, and we all would have max dps. In reality, a lot of zerkers fall early in the fight, and then need to be revived by their party members (which can then get more people downed). Most pugs will have people in it that don't know the mechanics that well, but DO run a build they found on a website, which then gets them killed. For Grenth's sake, just bring some survivability. Even if its just one defensive skill.

    I dunno, I yet have not had any struggles playing any of my raid builds in strike missions and staying alive. Neither have my team mates - and I havent demanded LI requirements or anything.

    Yet surely you can realize that not everyone plays flawlessly and that there is a spectrum?

    Playing flawlessly is not even a necessity. Having even decent three supports will get you safely through Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag.

    Well sure, having 3 support that cover all mistakes from casuals can do it. But that in and of itself is assuming a lot about composition of a pug and the support themselves. It sounds like you are bringing your raiding and some of your raiding friends to strikes and are saying you dont have any problems covering deficits in your group. Obviously your set up hasnt experienced issues. I dont think the OP is speaking about that.

    I do not bring raiding friends, I go with complete pugs or with my guildies who are all new to strikes. I either play a dps or one support, and have two pug supports. There are various different, easy comps you can do.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    :P why choose survivability over damage, when you can just do the mechs correctly in berserker gear and do more damage > faster kills > everyone are more likely to survive.

    In a perfect world, everyone would be doing the mechs correctly in zerker gear, and we all would have max dps. In reality, a lot of zerkers fall early in the fight, and then need to be revived by their party members (which can then get more people downed). Most pugs will have people in it that don't know the mechanics that well, but DO run a build they found on a website, which then gets them killed. For Grenth's sake, just bring some survivability. Even if its just one defensive skill.

    I dunno, I yet have not had any struggles playing any of my raid builds in strike missions and staying alive. Neither have my team mates - and I havent demanded LI requirements or anything.

    Yet surely you can realize that not everyone plays flawlessly and that there is a spectrum?

    Playing flawlessly is not even a necessity. Having even decent three supports will get you safely through Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag.

    Well sure, having 3 support that cover all mistakes from casuals can do it. But that in and of itself is assuming a lot about composition of a pug and the support themselves. It sounds like you are bringing your raiding and some of your raiding friends to strikes and are saying you dont have any problems covering deficits in your group. Obviously your set up hasnt experienced issues. I dont think the OP is speaking about that.

    I pug strike missions everyday, and never had trouble finding 2 healer, 1 alac from LFGs, so I'm not sure how often you have tried.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    Guy is saying all dps noobs or otherwise can do it in all berserker by being Carried by three heals.

    I'm pushing back that it doesn't solve all your problems for casuals, especially assuming your support are casuals also.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    Guy is saying all dps noobs or otherwise can do it in all berserker by being Carried by three heals.

    I'm pushing back that it doesn't solve all your problems for casuals, especially assuming your support are casuals also.

    Going unoptimal builds will not solve the casuals' problems either, though. This is very backwards thinking. Thinking you will survive better by adding more survivability. In truth what will make you survive better is proper boon uptimes, proper heals, stacking, not panicking and doing more dps > killing things faster > less time to kitten up.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    Guy is saying all dps noobs or otherwise can do it in all berserker by being Carried by three heals.

    I'm pushing back that it doesn't solve all your problems for casuals, especially assuming your support are casuals also.

    Oh well, Kitty got a good idea: she could try doing all strikes today as berserker's DH and soldier's DH while playing with simple scepter+focus, no F2/F3 in zerker's just for extrapolation, and then report back about how it went. Or actually, guess she could record a video of it. ;)

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    Guy is saying all dps noobs or otherwise can do it in all berserker by being Carried by three heals.

    I'm pushing back that it doesn't solve all your problems for casuals, especially assuming your support are casuals also.

    Oh well, Kitty got a good idea: she could try doing all strikes today as berserker's DH and soldier's DH while playing with simple scepter+focus, no F2/F3 in zerker's just for extrapolation, and then report back about how it went. Or actually, guess she could record a video of it. ;)

    Its a great experiment, but i have a feeling you arent a noob!

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    Guy is saying all dps noobs or otherwise can do it in all berserker by being Carried by three heals.

    I'm pushing back that it doesn't solve all your problems for casuals, especially assuming your support are casuals also.

    Oh well, Kitty got a good idea: she could try doing all strikes today as berserker's DH and soldier's DH while playing with simple scepter+focus, no F2/F3 in zerker's just for extrapolation, and then report back about how it went. Or actually, guess she could record a video of it. ;)

    do it

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Going unoptimal builds will not solve the casuals' problems either, though.

    People really need to stop thinking non-optimal builds automatically are bad builds.
    There are many non-optimal builds that are sufficiently close to optimal builds.
    In fact, taking individual strengths, weaknesses, enjoyment and playstyle in consideration, some of these non-optimal builds can outperform those on-paper optimal builds.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Going unoptimal builds will not solve the casuals' problems either, though.

    People really need to stop thinking non-optimal builds automatically are bad builds.
    There are many non-optimal builds that are sufficiently close to optimal builds.
    In fact, taking individual strengths, weaknesses, enjoyment and playstyle in consideration, some of these non-optimal builds can outperform those on-paper optimal builds.

    It goes both ways. Advising someone to go for more survivability is also asking someone to play on a build they are not used to, and as such it can also end in decrease of efficiency.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Going unoptimal builds will not solve the casuals' problems either, though.

    People really need to stop thinking non-optimal builds automatically are bad builds.
    There are many non-optimal builds that are sufficiently close to optimal builds.
    In fact, taking individual strengths, weaknesses, enjoyment and playstyle in consideration, some of these non-optimal builds can outperform those on-paper optimal builds.

    The "not being able to play what I want" argument does not really work here either. You do not need to play meta in order to play an optimal build. Most playstyles and builds will have a more optimized version for strike missions.

    For example I know this power hammer scrapper player. The build does just fine as a concept, but a berserker's scrapper will be a lot more efficient for the squad than a soldier's scrapper.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    The "not being able to play what I want" argument does not really work here either. You do not need to play meta in order to play an optimal build.

    By definition meta means playing an optimal build. This is exactly what a meta build is, the optimal build under the given circumstance.
    But the problem is not people playing suboptimal builds or "playing what they want" . Meta builds are not needed on Strikes and they are not needed on Raids.
    The problem occurs when when that player who is running whatever build they choose underperforms.... and I am not talking missing the benchmark by 10k, I'm talking < 3k dps on Shiverpeaks Pass while pretending to be DPS.
    And as much as no one wants to admit this... In Strikes there are far more players in full meta build/gear underperforming than there are people showing up on meme builds so bad that don't contribute and defiantly shouting "I PLAY HOW I WANT".

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    The "not being able to play what I want" argument does not really work here either. You do not need to play meta in order to play an optimal build.

    By definition meta means playing an optimal build. This is exactly what a meta build is, the optimal build under the given circumstance.
    But the problem is not people playing suboptimal builds or "playing what they want" . Meta builds are not needed on Strikes and they are not needed on Raids.
    The problem occurs when when that player who is running whatever build they choose underperforms.... and I am not talking missing the benchmark by 10k, I'm talking < 3k dps on Shiverpeaks Pass while pretending to be DPS.
    And as much as no one wants to admit this... In Strikes there are far more players in full meta build/gear underperforming than there are people showing up on meme builds so bad that don't contribute and defiantly shouting "I PLAY HOW I WANT".

    Yeah this is true also.

  • Vecuu.2018Vecuu.2018 Member ✭✭

    It feels strange to comment on this with how sporadic my playtime has been over the years, but similar thoughts has been going my mind recently.

    I think it's important to remember that most players are average. By that, I mean that we are not in a world of "hardcore grinders" and "useless n00bs". What this means is that your average, no reqs PUG is going to do... okay. That's fine for most content.

    The discussion my buddies and I have on this is what we call Cheese vs Skill. For instance, if you can stack on the boss's butt with a bunch of Zerker DPS and 1-2 Healers and ignore all boss mechanics, that's "cheese", and if you can run around like a chicken with its head cut off while doing damage, taking zero damage, and reviving downed players all at once, that's "skill."

    Cheese is way easier than skill. No two ways about it. If you can ignore boss mechanics, the game gets reduced to a Patchwerk fight (err... Golem fight? I'm old, shhh). Less mechanics to interact with and higher overall DPS, means you kill the boss faster, which means less mechanics to avoid or ignore, so the fight goes quickly and smoothly.

    Until it doesn't.

    One dps goes down. So another goes for the rally and drops. So the Healer goes for the revive and does less healing so another DPS dies but there's still red circles on the ground and now you can't CC the boss cause you've got three deeps taking dirt naps and the big AoE drops the healer and then the run.

    The meta is what it is because it works, but it also reinforces itself. If people rely on 1-2 healers and high dps, people will only look for 1-2 healers and high dps. Because people are only used to running with 1-2 healers and high dps, people hyper focus on rotations and forget how to avoid mechanics.

    As a for instance: take LT Kohler from Ascalon Catacombs. I know I'm going way back, but bear with me. How many of you remember how to avoid his scorpion wire pull into spin attack? Do you even care? Does it drop you? I challenge you to take away your ascended gear, and build a 5man team of level 35s and go run AC Explorable. Let me know how it goes. Back in the day, PUGs for AC used to skip LT Kohler because he was considered too hard.

    I'm mostly rambling, but I'll wrap it up with:

    -Dead DPS do zero damage
    -Being a "DPS" doing <3k is just as bad, even if you don't ever drop
    -git gud
    -Be excellent to each other

    :)