The new player experience needs love — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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The new player experience needs love

GW2 is a great game, but for new players not so much. While the game has fixed objectives for lvl 80 players with daily strikes, fractals, legendary obtainment etc, for the new player there is no definite aim which imo is really bad. As a new player the GW2 experience is basically hearts and map exploration. This sounds good. BUT, in a game where the rewards are crafting materials, there is no incentive to craft items! There are no recipe vendors that give you an idea of what you can do with the materials you have gathered, there is no daily crafting to even get you started in crafting. Instead you are left with mindlessly going through the open world with zero objective until it becomes boring and you quit the game. For the new player, the game desperately needs objectives. Put in a system where the new player can obtain recipes to craft level 80 exotic gear, this way the player will know what certain materials are used for and the player will have the objective of going out and gathering those materials, participating in events, etc. This will make the leveling up experience rewarding and fun. Put in a system of daily crafting. We should not go to an external website to begin crafting! This is a game where the rewards are crafting materials, introducing crafting to new players should be high up on the priority list. Have a daily dungeon system similar to the daily strike missions with rewards at the end of the week. I feel like these daily missions can be given out at the order you joined (vigil, priory, whispers). The order can give out daily missions with recipe rewards so you actually feel like an initiate climbing up the ranks and by the time you reach 80, you would have crafted your armor and weapons ready to explore Tyria and beyond.

Totally unrelated: Please can we have campfires in maps as a place to cook food.

Comments

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    Exploring the world of Tyria is in of itself, an objective for a new player.

    Doing hearts and map completions is a goal to acheive for new players and is one of the primary draws that the initial release game had. The other is getting to level 80 so you unlock all your class skills and specs while gaining access to all the level 80 daily activities.

    As far as crafting goes... It's more expensive to level up a craft from 1-400 than it is to buy a full set of level 80 Exotics of the market with perfect stats. This doesn't even include the expense that is actually crafting said exotics after reacing 400 crafting (Or the fact that a single crafting discipline cannot produce 1 full set of gear as Armour, Weapons and Jewelery all require different disciplines, with weapons being additionally split across multiple disciplines)

    AND this is while factoring in leveling crafting via following a crafting website's optimized leveling guide to level you up at the lowest cost possible.

    As such, I don't think pushing players towards crafting would be beneficial at all. Given that crafting in of itself is only really useful for obtaining Ascended gear and Legendaries (With Cooking and Artificing being useful to make your own consumables) both of which are only valuable while at level 80 and quite rich. Oh, and also getting big bags (Though, sell enough materials and you can get gold to buy some bags)

    Imagine how impressed new players would be spending hours leveling crafting, spending all their resources (Gold and Karma) on getting recipes and vendor bought ingredients... Only to then recieve better gear from level up rewards or personal story for free anyway.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    You seem pretty hung up on crafting. The problem with making crafting useful for leveling is that leveling is a temporary state. How long does the average player spend at level 14, for instance? Half an hour? How much time can you realistically spend crafting gear that only serves you for a few hours before it becomes obsolete?

    You also have to keep in mind economics. If the value of the gear itself is less than the value of the materials used to craft it, as is often the case, players would simply buy the gear on TP (which makes sense, since leveling gear upgrades only cost a few silver!). You could artificially raise the value of crafted gear by giving it a vendor value high enough to make it worthwhile to craft simply for the vendor price, but that would also raise the value of the materials used to craft it (they're inexpensive for a reason!). And round and round we go!

    You don't need to craft your armor at level 80 to explore Tyria and beyond. They make that relatively easy. Crafting in this game is mostly used for crafting collection items and ascended/legendary gear. These are things players need/want to achieve various objectives and so they do have value. Crafting isn't useless. It just doesn't work the way you want it to and the things you suggest wouldn't make that happen.

    Having said that, I have no problem with them adding crafting dailies or dungeon dailies. We already have it set up so you only need to do 3 objectives from any daily list. Adding more ways to play the way you want is not a bad idea. But I did want to point out that we have something called "fractals" which are simply dungeons by another name, and fractals do have their own dailies as well as their own form of progression which requires ascended gear crafting and has significantly better rewards when you progress to T4 and challenge mode fractals. It's a great way to earn a bunch of gold every day, but you have to gear your way to the top in fractals and crafting might help you to do that!

    I have mentioned crafting because the rewards for doing almost anything in game are crafting materials. Rewards motivate play. Currently, you do map events and get crafting materials. For a new player crafting materials are not really a reward. There should be an in game system where a player feels rewarded for obtaining these items. This was the reason i mentioned gear recipes. Also the crafting reward need not be an instant reward but rather it can build up to one. Just imagine you have a recipe for a cool looking armor set or a weapon set that needs you to obtain resources, complete hearts, do dungeons, obtain collectables, etc right from level 15 to level 80 regions. You would go around collecting this while leveling up and it would feel rewarding at the end. They have this system for legendaries, and they can implement something similar for new players.

    I don't see how the economy of the game would suffer if more people are using the systems in game. I know you do not need to have level 80 gear to explore the base game, but having lvl 80 gear adds a sense of achievement. Just like all achievements in game are optional, many complete it for the same reason.

    Also why would you say crafting is useless when most rewards are crafting materials? In ESO and WOW you get gear by exploration etc. That is not the case in GW2. In GW2 for the new player the only option available to them is dungeon gear and crafting. Fractals are a very good system, but the dungeons are introduced in the story and they contain elements of the story. For a new player who is just coming in, they are much more likely to try out the dungeons first.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    You could get some cool recipes with once the quest is complete as well?

    I think offering a few high level recipes (one or two exotic weapons/armor, etc.) for the chosen class may be a good way to pique interest in the system from an earlier start however.

    Also, I wanted to do the story missions for the Tyria Dungeons when I got the emails, but it is hard to get a group since the majority of players are focusing on 80+ content, speed runs, etc. I wish there was a way to do the story version of dungeons "solo" or with AI support or something. Maybe somehow the story Dungeons can be made solo-able and provide some crafting related recipes?

    The last paragraph is exactly why I made this thread. I have come across many new players wanting to try out dungeons and they cannot find groups. This is such a shame because the dungeons in GW2 are really nicely made with voice acting, a story etc. I have no idea why dungeons are just ignored. I do not think dungeons should be made solo (currently, they can be done solo if you got the gear and build), group content can be really enjoyable but incentivizing players to do dungeons would be a good way to repopulate this area.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    You seem pretty hung up on crafting. The problem with making crafting useful for leveling is that leveling is a temporary state. How long does the average player spend at level 14, for instance? Half an hour? How much time can you realistically spend crafting gear that only serves you for a few hours before it becomes obsolete?

    You also have to keep in mind economics. If the value of the gear itself is less than the value of the materials used to craft it, as is often the case, players would simply buy the gear on TP (which makes sense, since leveling gear upgrades only cost a few silver!). You could artificially raise the value of crafted gear by giving it a vendor value high enough to make it worthwhile to craft simply for the vendor price, but that would also raise the value of the materials used to craft it (they're inexpensive for a reason!). And round and round we go!

    You don't need to craft your armor at level 80 to explore Tyria and beyond. They make that relatively easy. Crafting in this game is mostly used for crafting collection items and ascended/legendary gear. These are things players need/want to achieve various objectives and so they do have value. Crafting isn't useless. It just doesn't work the way you want it to and the things you suggest wouldn't make that happen.

    Having said that, I have no problem with them adding crafting dailies or dungeon dailies. We already have it set up so you only need to do 3 objectives from any daily list. Adding more ways to play the way you want is not a bad idea. But I did want to point out that we have something called "fractals" which are simply dungeons by another name, and fractals do have their own dailies as well as their own form of progression which requires ascended gear crafting and has significantly better rewards when you progress to T4 and challenge mode fractals. It's a great way to earn a bunch of gold every day, but you have to gear your way to the top in fractals and crafting might help you to do that!

    I have mentioned crafting because the rewards for doing almost anything in game are crafting materials. Rewards motivate play. Currently, you do map events and get crafting materials. For a new player crafting materials are not really a reward. There should be an in game system where a player feels rewarded for obtaining these items. This was the reason i mentioned gear recipes. Also the crafting reward need not be an instant reward but rather it can build up to one. Just imagine you have a recipe for a cool looking armor set or a weapon set that needs you to obtain resources, complete hearts, do dungeons, obtain collectables, etc right from level 15 to level 80 regions. You would go around collecting this while leveling up and it would feel rewarding at the end. They have this system for legendaries, and they can implement something similar for new players.

    I don't see how the economy of the game would suffer if more people are using the systems in game. I know you do not need to have level 80 gear to explore the base game, but having lvl 80 gear adds a sense of achievement. Just like all achievements in game are optional, many complete it for the same reason.

    Also why would you say crafting is useless when most rewards are crafting materials? In ESO and WOW you get gear by exploration etc. That is not the case in GW2. In GW2 for the new player the only option available to them is dungeon gear and crafting. Fractals are a very good system, but the dungeons are introduced in the story and they contain elements of the story. For a new player who is just coming in, they are much more likely to try out the dungeons first.

    What you're describing are collections, craftable skins, and useful combat enhancements (i.e. gear). The crafting system is used for all of these things. You're just new and haven't experienced that part of the game yet. This is an MMO and like most MMOs, the leveling experience is just the tip of the iceberg. Love the feedback and I don't disagree with what you're saying. I just think you lack perspective and need to play a bit more before you understand what you're looking at.

  • SummerRayne.4672SummerRayne.4672 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    Also why would you say crafting is useless when most rewards are crafting materials? In ESO and WOW you get gear by exploration etc. That is not the case in GW2. In GW2 for the new player the only option available to them is dungeon gear and crafting.

    Dungeon gear and crafting isn't the only way to get gear in GW2. If that were the case, most of my characters would still be in their starter gear. I have put a lot of years into WoW and have also played ESO some as well, so I know how their gear systems work. There are a number of ways in GW2 to get gear without crafting or doing dungeons. Gear drops in the world while you are exploring, killing mobs, doing heart quests, etc. While I play, my inventory is constantly being filled with weapons and armor of blue and green quality. I have to stop often to either put it on the trading post or salvage. There is also gear almost always rewarded during your story quests and living world chapters.

    Also, many of the karma reward merchants offer gear once you open them up from doing heart quests. That's actually where I got a majority of my gear when I first started playing GW2. I did some crafting in the beginning, but really didn't go very far with it in the beginning because as others have said here, you level faster than you can keep yourself geared from crafting. I suppose if you wanted to spend a lot of gold to buy mats to keep it in line with your level you could, but that wouldn't be easy for a new player at all.

    I also disagree that new players don't have any fixed objectives. I think there are many objectives a new player has to work towards. You have the zone completion, map completion, the story missions, etc. The open world exploration, heart quests and story of GW2 is the objective in my opinion. As you continue to level you have more and more to work towards. The mastery system, crafting ascended armor, legendary weapons, LW chapters, expansions, fractals, world bosses, tons of events and the like.

    Maybe I'm just misunderstanding somewhat, but GW2 definitely isn't a game that I see lacking really for the new player. There is so much to do and work towards, no matter if you want to work towards it casually or at a quicker pace.

    I do agree with you on the part though about the few people who do dungeons. That's pretty unfortunate because they tie into the story and can be fun.

    Edited to add: I do like some of your suggestions though. I could see some of them being fun and beneficial for some new players. Maybe you should post those in the suggestions section. I just disagree that the new player experience is lacking in objectives. I think there is lots in this game for a new player to aim towards. You also have achievements to work towards. This game is different from other mmo's like WoW and ESO. I for one am very happy it is different and hope it never starts going in the direction of other mmo's. I love that GW2 is different and unique.

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Crafting mats are a source of Gold; that's why there is a Trading Post, and an integral part of the game's economy.
    A (new) player can buy the gear they need from the Trading Post.
    The New Player Tutorial has an achievement that involves crafting.
    The Level-Up rewards include information on most aspects of the game, as well as gear.

    It may, or may not, be easier to find groups for Dungeons when they are on offer as a Daily.

    I don't think 'new' players could craft most Exotic gear while leveling as they don't have access to the mats from gathering. They would need to buy the mats from the Trading Post, which brings us back to....players can buy their gear on the Trading Post. Also, there are Exotic gear Vendors in Orr for a reason.

  • Leablo.2651Leablo.2651 Member ✭✭✭

    The lack of direction in the NPE is one of the biggest issues with the change. It used to be that you received a story quest every 2 levels or so, and that was enough to guide your map exploration. Even if you needed to spend some time leveling up, you had a direction to move toward because that next step was always visible, and you could do the hearts on the way to prepare for it. After they moved all the story quests to 10 level increments with no pointers to where you should go in between, the journey feels completely aimless.

  • @Tazer.2157 said:
    The last paragraph is exactly why I made this thread. I have come across many new players wanting to try out dungeons and they cannot find groups. This is such a shame because the dungeons in GW2 are really nicely made with voice acting, a story etc. I have no idea why dungeons are just ignored. I do not think dungeons should be made solo (currently, they can be done solo if you got the gear and build), group content can be really enjoyable but incentivizing players to do dungeons would be a good way to repopulate this area.

    To my understanding there are two choices when doing a dungeon (I still haven't done one yet, so I don't really know). Even if people were going to do them again for loot or rewards, I'm guessing they would choose the faster "non-story" version of the dungeon. The reason why I think the story mode should be solo-able is so that the play can continue to enjoy the story. The personal story can be done alone, but the dungeons can't. In the personal story you really don't know much about Destiny's Edge, and they are with you at the end of the story, but they seem very "side-lined" that I really didn't care too much about who they were. From a story telling perspective, allowing a player the ability to access the dungeons when they become available would be great in my opinion.

    I also wouldn't mind getting rewarded with a recipe to craft a "Masterwork" version of the Royal Ascalonian Weapons (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Ascalonian_weapons). They look cool enough to entice people to craft to get the skins and make sense to receive from Ascalonian Dungeons. It may compete with other reward tracks though because I'm not so sure how this could potentially devalue the exotic versions of these weapons.

    Also, dungeons and even the higher level content somehow seems a little intimidating because there is almost too much to do. I think letting players understand what dungeons are beforehand at their own pace seems nice and would maybe spark an interest in doing the "explorable" version of the dungeons with friends later on. How I see it now, it just creates additional holes in the personal story and leaves newer players in a weird type of limbo where they are unable to access content they are deliberately told to go check out.

    @Leablo.2651 said:
    After they moved all the story quests to 10 level increments with no pointers to where you should go in between, the journey feels completely aimless.

    Interesting. They changed the interval?

    With the experience of a new player fresh in my mind, I definitely didn't feel like my journey was aimless. Maybe that's kind of what I expected from an open world game though. I liked making my own aims. I'm going to get this map to 100% was a common one, usually followed by, "I wonder if I can get up here". I guess I really just like the exploration element of this game and why I play it over more over more "guided" games. I don't feel like I have to do anything, but I always have something to do.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @firedragon.8953 said:
    Interesting. They changed the interval?

    With the experience of a new player fresh in my mind, I definitely didn't feel like my journey was aimless. Maybe that's kind of what I expected from an open world game though. I liked making my own aims. I'm going to get this map to 100% was a common one, usually followed by, "I wonder if I can get up here". I guess I really just like the exploration element of this game and why I play it over more over more "guided" games. I don't feel like I have to do anything, but I always have something to do.

    It's mostly at the start of the game that this is an "issue". Once you finish the tutorial instance, you cannot progress the story, instead, you go around helping random people for a while until you reach level 10. The rest of the story being every 10 levels instead of 2 isn't as bad in my opinion, in fact I prefer the new version, you can play the story in one go, instead of splitting it in several pieces. It's only that first story that requires reaching level 10 that is a bit questionable, although not a big deal by any means.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    So the majority of arguments are

    Buy everything on the tp.
    First as many try the game a with free to play accounts, they do not have access to the trading post. Also if they do have access to the tp is it really better gameplay to have new players skip majority of the game systems and have them buy items directly off the tp? The game should atleast make an effort to let new players know what the game contains. I’m not a new player and I have played gw2 for over a year or two, but I know less about the systems in gw2 than say eso, a game I played for 6 months. In ESO the leveling up system is great. You discover recipes, you begin your crafting journey, you feel like your character is getting stronger. For example, in eso I used to craft consumables all the time. In gw2 on the other hand, I don’t even bother.

    New players have hearts and map completion. Put another way, why bother with hearts and map completion at all when all you can do as the game encourages is get on a farm train, sell items on tp for gold and repeat. When there is no need to complete an objective, that objective is useless. Again is this an mmo or a farming simulator where the ultimate aim is not to learn the game or even find out what the game contains but to buy and sell items on the trading post.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Also if they do have access to the tp is it really better gameplay to have new players skip majority of the game systems and have them buy items directly off the tp?

    Given that buying stuff off the TP is literally the best way to obtain items, yes.

    Otherwise, you're going to spent hours and hours and hours working with RNG. Be it getting RNG Exotics from drops or getting crafting materials (Trophies required to make stat components, Ectoplasms for Exotic gear etc) and spending far, far, far more gold that you would simply buying the items you need off the TP allowing you to simply care about playing the game.

    Since that's the thing. Crafting is literally just an end-game thing. It's not worthwhile to pursue it for any reason other than Legendaries or Ascended gear. It's far easier to obtain Exotics through just purchasing off the TP and in the case of HoT stat lines, participating in HoT events (Which are far easier when you have a set of Exotic gear with not trash stats)

    It's only a very minor part of the game. There are a plethora of other parts of the game outside of crafting. OW (Where you can get achievements, rare skins, transmutation charges to use said rare skins and participate in events and world bosses), Dungeons, Fractals, Strikes, Raids, WvW and PvP.

    None of these other systems are being bypassed simply by getting a starter set of gear via purchasing off the TP. Heck, a new player might even use a level 80 boost at some point and get a free set of Exotics and some 15 slot bags. Does that mean they skipped a majority of the games systems? Or does it mean that they can instead focus on enjoying the games systems because collecting loot is an incredibly minor part of this game which defines itself as not being a gear treadmill type game.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    In ESO the leveling up system is great. You discover recipes, you begin your crafting journey, you feel like your character is getting stronger. For example, in eso I used to craft consumables all the time. In gw2 on the other hand, I don’t even bother.

    Different strokes for different folks honestly.

    I played ESO quite a lot and crafting was never a thing I really did. I was never incentivised to do it. Anything I needed, I could just buy because I had a huge stack of gold from... "Borrowing" items from civilian NPC's...

    With crafting really only being worthwhile if you happened to want gear with one of the few crafting exclusive set bonuses (Otherwise you can just farm a particular zone or dungeon to get the stuff you need and eventually get the highest rarity and be done with gearing)

    As a result, I only did crafting after getting all my characters set up, just because why not just do the daily crafting orders for something to do... Gotta spend my truckload of gold somewhere...

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    New players have hearts and map completion. Put another way, why bother with hearts and map completion at all when all you can do as the game encourages is get on a farm train, sell items on tp for gold and repeat. When there is no need to complete an objective, that objective is useless. Again is this an mmo or a farming simulator where the ultimate aim is not to learn the game or even find out what the game contains but to buy and sell items on the trading post.

    Hearts can be fun. Map completion can be fun. You can also get items for collections from Heart vendors, as well as some unique skins.

    The objective here is fun. GW2 is all about finding what you consider fun and doing it. You don't need to farm gold (The game literally gives it to you, 2g per day from daily PvE bag for doing like 4 events and taking a Mesmer portal at a JP. Plus whatever you eke out from selling loot on the TP such as like 20s per Ecto which can be easily obtained from salvaging the stacks of 250+ Unidentified Items you get from doing basically anything in the OW) especially since most Exotic gear on the TP is dirt cheap, we're talking like 30s-2g a piece (With only really Berserker gear being 2g because it's BiS for DPS most other stats are 1g max)

    As such, Crafting is something not everyone finds fun. Ergo, forcing people into it is probably not a good idea.

    Hearts and Map completion is something not everyone finds fun. But it's not forced on anyone. If someone wishes, they can skip that and just level up doing PS/Events/mob farming (The latter being extremely efficient with boosters. I.e. With a Birthday Booster and a Killstreak Booster I can level a character 1-80 in about 3 hours) and then start doing level 80 content such as LW (If available), events, instanced content or ust hop into WvW/PvP (Heck a level 2 character can simply hop into sPvP and skip literally the majority of the game and only play sPvP if they wanted)

    Cat: Meow.

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the game is pretty easy to learn and you make quick progress - quicker than in other MMORPG. Maybe a lot of stuff is "too much" for new players: There are dungeons, raids, fractals. And lots of crafting stuff. But they don't need to know that all at once.

    Also in most cases exotic gear (at least for story and open world pve) is enough. Crafting not needed at all.

    Expansions seem to do a good job in introducing the masteries slowly. At least HoT. (Haven't played further than prologue of PoF.)

    The main problem I see is: The latest stuff is used for advertising and to bring in new players. They might be confused by jumping directly to season 5 (Icebrood Saga) for example. Doing personal core story and normally leveling to 80 ... is great for new players. Game should encourage them to do so instead of jumping to latest content and using a boost 80 ticket.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Somebody hasn't bothered looking at Karma merchants, that are specifically and distinctly called out when completing a Heart "quest".

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • keenedge.9675keenedge.9675 Member ✭✭✭

    @Luthan.5236 said:
    I think the game is pretty easy to learn and you make quick progress - quicker than in other MMORPG. Maybe a lot of stuff is "too much" for new players: There are dungeons, raids, fractals. And lots of crafting stuff. But they don't need to know that all at once.
    Also in most cases exotic gear (at least for story and open world pve) is enough. Crafting not needed at all.
    Expansions seem to do a good job in introducing the masteries slowly. At least HoT. (Haven't played further than prologue of PoF.)
    The main problem I see is: The latest stuff is used for advertising and to bring in new players. They might be confused by jumping directly to season 5 (Icebrood Saga) for example. Doing personal core story and normally leveling to 80 ... is great for new players. Game should encourage them to do so instead of jumping to latest content and using a boost 80 ticket.

    Highly agree.

    More emphasis should be put into teaching about how experience points are not earned faster by killing high-level mobs when you are a low-level as it does in other games.
    ( Plus, in our wiki, the Experience -> Mechanics -> Defeating Foes section needs to be better worded so it doesn't promote this idea )

    Our most excellent /wiki (game guide) doesn't seem to be promoted during low-level training experiences. A mention of buff utility and food items would be good for new players as well.

    Moral Statute Machine: John Spartan, you are fined five credits for repeated violations of the verbal morality statute.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    So the majority of arguments are

    Buy everything on the tp.
    First as many try the game a with free to play accounts, they do not have access to the trading post. Also if they do have access to the tp is it really better gameplay to have new players skip majority of the game systems and have them buy items directly off the tp? The game should atleast make an effort to let new players know what the game contains. I’m not a new player and I have played gw2 for over a year or two, but I know less about the systems in gw2 than say eso, a game I played for 6 months. In ESO the leveling up system is great. You discover recipes, you begin your crafting journey, you feel like your character is getting stronger. For example, in eso I used to craft consumables all the time. In gw2 on the other hand, I don’t even bother.

    New players have hearts and map completion. Put another way, why bother with hearts and map completion at all when all you can do as the game encourages is get on a farm train, sell items on tp for gold and repeat. When there is no need to complete an objective, that objective is useless. Again is this an mmo or a farming simulator where the ultimate aim is not to learn the game or even find out what the game contains but to buy and sell items on the trading post.

    By "playing" for 2 years, you mean you've had an account for 2 years. Honestly, with the assumptions you're making, you sound pretty much brand new to this game. Are you sure you aren't just an ESO player who has a F2P GW2 account they never use?

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    By "playing" for 2 years, you mean you've had an account for 2 years. Honestly, with the assumptions you're making, you sound pretty much brand new to this game. Are you sure you aren't just an ESO player who has a F2P GW2 account they never use?

    Great assumption there bud. But you are right, as a player who has been playing the game for 2 + years I barely know anything about the game because the game barely bothers with it anyway Why bother playing the game when you can have others play it for you. All you have to do it buy items off the TP right? That really defines FUN. For most of my time even up to path of fire, I was stuck with gear I got grinding PvP for dungeon rewards because dungeons are empty. That was it. I am pretty sure I am not alone in this because again by the time you reach Orr for the "karma merchants" ppl are so fond of you lose interest in the game. Buying armor for karma is the most basic experience you can ask for. It is a lazy design and I am pretty surprised that people defend this when they complain about grinding crafting materials when they have no problem grinding karma.

    I am not asking crafting to be made mandatory, I am asking for a better experience than just running around aimlessly doing hearts. Teach the in game systems to the players coming in. Have the gameplay be more engaging. Make the exploration more rewarding.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @SummerRayne.4672 said:

    I listed a number of ways to get gear in my previous post that doesn’t involve crafting, dungeons or buying off the trading post. I personally have rarely bought from the trading post. I’m confused as to how you don’t seem to see in all this time you say you have played, that mobs drop gear, you get gear from karma merchants from doing heart quests, from your personal story, living world stories, etc.

    Green, yellow and blue gear does not count :/ They can be considered trash drops. These gear drops create no excitement when they drop and they serve no purpose other than to be scavenged. The system of getting gear from karma merchants is lazy. It does not introduce you to the systems in game, it only encourages karma grind. The point I am making is not "ways to get gear" it is about creating more engaging gameplay.

    The more of your posts I read, it sounds as if maybe the systems of this game just aren’t to your liking and you prefer other mmo’s, and that’s perfectly fine. The problem with your arguments though is much of what you are trying to say is just false.

    Stop assuming what I enjoy and what I don't. If I do not care about the game, I would not spend time coming in here and trying to put in suggestions.

    If anything, I think they have improved upon the new player experience over the years. I originally started playing from the very first closed beta. The game now has more pop ups and direction than it once did. Every time you level you are given tips about what to expect in the levels to come. If you actually click on those tips, it gives you even more information. You are even given gear and gathering tools as you level. I don’t see where the game doesn’t help guide you.

    Do those rewards make you excited? No they don't. Reward system should feel rewarding. Currently the reward system feels like a system put in because it has to be there.

    The heart quests and encouraged exploration is part of what people love about the game. You do those and you open up achievements, karma merchants, etc. GW2 has so many different things a player can do. You aren’t on rails like WoW as an example. Maybe you prefer that type of play style? If so, all good. But GW2 is a different type of mmo and I don’t feel we need it to be another clone of others. Many people like this game because it’s different.

    WoW has more content than GW2. If anything is on rails, it is GW2. On the contrary exploration is not encouraged in the game. Why? Because it is more efficient to go directly to a lvl 80 zone like Orr, wait for a farming train, join up, get the drops, sell them on tp, and repeat. Is doing hearts really fun? If they are fun why were they removed in the expansions? The expansions barely have hearts. Players complain about heart completion. Why is making heart completion mandatory a good thing?

    I suppose the game is only a farming simulator if that’s how you choose to play it and see it. I personally haven’t ever played it that way and don’t see it that way at all. You have many options what to do and how to play. How you choose to play it is your choice. The game doesn’t need to change because you don’t want to explore or see what the game has to offer.

    I wish the game would show us the various ways we can play it. That is what I am asking for. By making daily dungeons, daily crafting achievements, it shows new players different ways to approach the game other than karma merchants and the tp.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Put in a system where the new player can obtain recipes to craft level 80 exotic gear

    The necessary recipes for that are either just doing discovery or already available from the NPC standing right next to the crafting station.

    We should not go to an external website to begin crafting!

    Sure ... those websites didn't even exist back when many us were leveling our crafting. Seems like pretty great proof that they are not necessary.

    This is a game where the rewards are crafting materials,

    It rewards you with items. Some items can be used for crafting. If you choose to craft then you need to learn how to do it. If you want to do something then you have to have to learn, there is simply no getting around that.

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @keenedge.9675 said:

    @Luthan.5236 said:
    I think the game is pretty easy to learn and you make quick progress - quicker than in other MMORPG. Maybe a lot of stuff is "too much" for new players: There are dungeons, raids, fractals. And lots of crafting stuff. But they don't need to know that all at once.
    Also in most cases exotic gear (at least for story and open world pve) is enough. Crafting not needed at all.
    Expansions seem to do a good job in introducing the masteries slowly. At least HoT. (Haven't played further than prologue of PoF.)
    The main problem I see is: The latest stuff is used for advertising and to bring in new players. They might be confused by jumping directly to season 5 (Icebrood Saga) for example. Doing personal core story and normally leveling to 80 ... is great for new players. Game should encourage them to do so instead of jumping to latest content and using a boost 80 ticket.

    Highly agree.

    More emphasis should be put into teaching about how experience points are not earned faster by killing high-level mobs when you are a low-level as it does in other games.
    ( Plus, in our wiki, the Experience -> Mechanics -> Defeating Foes section needs to be better worded so it doesn't promote this idea )

    Our most excellent /wiki (game guide) doesn't seem to be promoted during low-level training experiences. A mention of buff utility and food items would be good for new players as well.

    Crafting explained at L12
    Food explained at L28
    Utility Consumables at L32

    It would be good if the Wiki, and how to access it in-game was mentioned, I will agree.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SummerRayne.4672 said:
    I also disagree that new players don't have any fixed objectives. I think there are many objectives a new player has to work towards. You have the zone completion, map completion, the story missions, etc. The open world exploration, heart quests and story of GW2 is the objective in my opinion. As you continue to level you have more and more to work towards. The mastery system, crafting ascended armor, legendary weapons, LW chapters, expansions, fractals, world bosses, tons of events and the like.

    GW2 has objectives. The main difference with other games is that it doesn't really do anything to push you towards doing them.

    In some other game there is things you must do to continue progressing(if you want to fight this boss then you must defeat that boss first, your gear must be at least this good to do this content, etc.). In GW2 it's "hey there are some stuff to do ... you could do them if you want or not". Even in the exceptional case with fractals and AR you can potentially avoid getting that by figuring out how to avoid the attacks that applies agony but that in itself is a goal that the player has decided on.

    Maybe I'm just misunderstanding somewhat, but GW2 definitely isn't a game that I see lacking really for the new player. There is so much to do and work towards, no matter if you want to work towards it casually or at a quicker pace.

    Key point being "if you want to". Should it start being more pushy? That would start undermining one of its key features.

    Must I do crafting? No
    Must I do the story? No
    Must I do fractals? No
    Must I do raids? No
    Must I do map completion? No
    Must I do dungeons? No
    ...
    There is only one thing that is a must. You must want to play the game but what actually constitute playing the game is up to you to decide and this is why research has found that having choices makes at least some people unhappy.

    @firedragon.8953 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    The last paragraph is exactly why I made this thread. I have come across many new players wanting to try out dungeons and they cannot find groups. This is such a shame because the dungeons in GW2 are really nicely made with voice acting, a story etc. I have no idea why dungeons are just ignored. I do not think dungeons should be made solo (currently, they can be done solo if you got the gear and build), group content can be really enjoyable but incentivizing players to do dungeons would be a good way to repopulate this area.

    To my understanding there are two choices when doing a dungeon (I still haven't done one yet, so I don't really know). Even if people were going to do them again for loot or rewards, I'm guessing they would choose the faster "non-story" version of the dungeon. The reason why I think the story mode should be solo-able is so that the play can continue to enjoy the story. The personal story can be done alone, but the dungeons can't. In the personal story you really don't know much about Destiny's Edge, and they are with you at the end of the story, but they seem very "side-lined" that I really didn't care too much about who they were. From a story telling perspective, allowing a player the ability to access the dungeons when they become available would be great in my opinion.

    The reason people will choose the non-story dungeon regardless is because the story paths have always had worse rewards. In particular they don't give any dungeon token(except maybe a tiny amount from some enemies in some dungeons).

    I also wouldn't mind getting rewarded with a recipe to craft a "Masterwork" version of the Royal Ascalonian Weapons (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Ascalonian_weapons). They look cool enough to entice people to craft to get the skins and make sense to receive from Ascalonian Dungeons. It may compete with other reward tracks though because I'm not so sure how this could potentially devalue the exotic versions of these weapons.

    People only really care about the skin. Except maybe for the hardcore roleplayers, most aren't going to care if it is via crafting or drops or buying from the dungeon vendor.

    Also, dungeons and even the higher level content somehow seems a little intimidating because there is almost too much to do. I think letting players understand what dungeons are beforehand at their own pace seems nice and would maybe spark an interest in doing the "explorable" version of the dungeons with friends later on. How I see it now, it just creates additional holes in the personal story and leaves newer players in a weird type of limbo where they are unable to access content they are deliberately told to go check out.

    The lack of people doing dungeons is directly related to their rewards being lacking. Also a bunch of dungeons still have bugs that are old as dirt. When thinking about rewards it has to be from the perspective of something that can endure. Skins can get people in the door but they won't keep people around. There has to be a reason to stay around once you have unlocked everything. Timegating can delay things but that is still temporary.

    @Leablo.2651 said:
    After they moved all the story quests to 10 level increments with no pointers to where you should go in between, the journey feels completely aimless.

    Interesting. They changed the interval?

    With the experience of a new player fresh in my mind, I definitely didn't feel like my journey was aimless. Maybe that's kind of what I expected from an open world game though. I liked making my own aims. I'm going to get this map to 100% was a common one, usually followed by, "I wonder if I can get up here". I guess I really just like the exploration element of this game and why I play it over more over more "guided" games. I don't feel like I have to do anything, but I always have something to do.

    They didn't change the interval so much as putting one in. There used to be no restriction. You could do the level 10 story at lv2 or try to. Some people did try. Some people got pounded into the ground by the NPCs and became not very happy with ANet for giving them the freedom to get themselves into that situation. Alternatively the story step could have pointed to a map that is higher level. This can get especially tricky for maps with wide level range and multiple entrances.

    An alternative is to have each story step reward enough exp to get you to the next required level(level requirements needs to be kept since they can send you to maps of higher level) and provide some gear at some intervals. As part of providing the gear they could even provide some information and suggestions(via templates?) on builds. This would provide a pretty simple and straightforward way to level and gear your character. Other options could be explored on later characters or just later.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @firedragon.8953 said:
    Interesting. They changed the interval?

    With the experience of a new player fresh in my mind, I definitely didn't feel like my journey was aimless. Maybe that's kind of what I expected from an open world game though. I liked making my own aims. I'm going to get this map to 100% was a common one, usually followed by, "I wonder if I can get up here". I guess I really just like the exploration element of this game and why I play it over more over more "guided" games. I don't feel like I have to do anything, but I always have something to do.

    It's mostly at the start of the game that this is an "issue". Once you finish the tutorial instance, you cannot progress the story, instead, you go around helping random people for a while until you reach level 10. The rest of the story being every 10 levels instead of 2 isn't as bad in my opinion, in fact I prefer the new version, you can play the story in one go, instead of splitting it in several pieces. It's only that first story that requires reaching level 10 that is a bit questionable, although not a big deal by any means.

    There is a presentation issue. Instead of having some sort of message in the story tracker saying "next story step available at level X" it is just empty.

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Also if they do have access to the tp is it really better gameplay to have new players skip majority of the game systems and have them buy items directly off the tp?

    Given that buying stuff off the TP is literally the best way to obtain items, yes.

    Even the crafting system itself is set up in a way with the expectation that not everyone will craft.
    I did the whole level my crafting along with my character thing. I also tried to do the "use the things I crafted" approach. However despite crafting with only 3 characters and gearing 8(this was waaaay before there was even a hint rev, in fact this was before ascended gear even existed), I was still left with excess items. What are you going to do with those extras? Sell them to people who do not want to do crafting. This worked better back in the day since the price difference between crafted and dropped gear wasn't so huge.

    It was only with the introduction of ascended weapons and armor that made crafting somewhat inevitable but with strikes we can move it back to "mostly optional, required for some stats".

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    The system of getting gear from karma merchants is lazy. It does not introduce you to the systems in game, it only encourages karma grind.

    Karma grind? You mean, interacting with systems in the game that provide karma? Such as doing daily achievements (For Central Tyria and LW maps), doing Fractals, doing Raids or engaging in content inside a LW map that offers Karmic Retribution?

    As opposed to what? Crafting? Which is, go to a website, find out what you need to craft then go stand in a town pushing the "Craft" button over and over until you have enough skill to push a button that says "Here, have the item you actually care about"?

    Unless you're trying to argue that the obtaining of materials (Through, running around using gathering tools for ore/lumber/plants or for trophies, sitting in the middle of a bunch of trash enemies farming them for hours on end) is more "Interactive"?

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    The point I am making is not "ways to get gear" it is about creating more engaging gameplay.

    Which would require a complete and total overhaul of the games crafting system to actually be engaging gamplay, before your suggestion of increasing the focus on crafting would actually make any sort of improvement to gameplay engagement.

    The way the game itself is structured, it's all about finding what you as an individual finds engaging. If new players come in, try out the games systems (Leveling up, doing some map completions, dabbling in some crafting, maybe do a dungeon, some WvW and a bit of PvP) and doesn't like it, well it's possible that the game just isn't for them. Not everyone will like the same things.

    If it's a case of new players simply aren't trying certain activities, then by all means, implement some more pointers to alert players of these activities as well as maybe improving the reward for some currently pretty barren activities (Such as Story Dungeons. Something as simple as a Daily Story Dungeon achivement reward could be enough to populate these)

    But don't force anyone into a particular activity. That's not how you retain new players, that's how you get new players to leave when they're forced to do stuff they don't like. It's one of the reasons why PvP in this game auto-levels you to 80 and lets you pick up whatever gear you want from the vendor, so that PvP fans, don't have to wade through 80 levels of PvE and then grind PvE content to get the gear they need to do PvP.

    Which is honestly, one of the best core systems for PvP in any MMO ever. It allows anyone to participate and be on an equal footing to everyone else (As opposed to something like WoW where due to how grindy gear acquisition is, especially for current season stuff that is futher locked behind weekly caps, it means that unless you start PvPing literally the first available point in the expansion, you'll forever be behind on gear)

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    On the contrary exploration is not encouraged in the game. Why? Because it is more efficient to go directly to a lvl 80 zone like Orr, wait for a farming train, join up, get the drops, sell them on tp, and repeat.

    Uhh... Not really.

    Exploration literally is encouraged in the game. That's why you get rewards for map completions. That's why the content guide will literally point you towards exploring the current map if there's not an event nearby and you aren't tracking a story quest. In fact, with the Elite Specializations, they have also come with collections for their weapons in which one of the points is "Get a map completion in [Current Expansion Zone] as X Class" which ends up with you obtaining an Ascended quality weapon.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Is doing hearts really fun? If they are fun why were they removed in the expansions? The expansions barely have hearts. Players complain about heart completion. Why is making heart completion mandatory a good thing?

    Hearts can be fun. It's like questing. Only, not mandatory.

    Hearts removed from expansions? PoF is full of hearts. In fact, mount acquisition is tied to completing hearts. Then of course the LW maps have REPEATABLE HEARTS. Meaning every day, it gets reset and you can do the heart again for more rewards (Also, to access the vendor again)

    Making heart completion mandatory isn't a good thing. Making anything mandatory isn't a good thing. Luckily, at the moment, nothing in GW2 is mandatory.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    I wish the game would show us the various ways we can play it. That is what I am asking for. By making daily dungeons, daily crafting achievements, it shows new players different ways to approach the game other than karma merchants and the tp.

    For the most part, it does.

    At around level 5-6, every character working through their starter zone winds up at a town/camp that is full of crafters where they can learn to craft. Characters also get given a set of gathering tools as a level up reward.

    Every 10 levels, you get a mail sent to you telling you about a new dungeon.

    The content guide will literally point you towards events that are happening. With some things like World Bosses and Bloodstone Crazed monsters being announced zone wide with a zone wide marker on the minimap.

    WvW gets announced as a level up reward at level 31 (60 for F2P accounts)

    There's an entire line of Mastery points dedicated to crafting Legendaries and running Fractals.

    Raids get announced if you go near an entrance portal (I think they're also mentioned upon hitting level 80 too)

    What content isn't shown to players?

    Cat: Meow.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    Okay it seems like a lot of people do not understand where I am coming from. Let me break it down.

    A new player starts out the game doing events and hearts in a map. They are rewarded with are mostly crafting items, coins and karma. The new player does not know about the armor vendors in Orr and what Karma can be used for. The same can be said for the crafting materials, but they go on completing hearts as that is the only laid out objective for them. If the rewards feel meaningless, there is less incentive to play.

    Along the way they are introduced to dungeons. Their first real group content that is challenging. Some try to do them, but they cannot form a group, so back to heart completion they go where the rewards do not make sense.

    For the ones that stuck with the game, by the time they reach Orr, they meet the vendors that sell armor for ridiculous amounts of karma. The amount of Karma required, they do not yet have. So now they finally have an objective. Grind Karma.

    Their journey from level 1 to level 80 has been one without an objective, time wasted, there was zero progression made(Unless you think map completion is progression). It felt unrewarding and grindy with map completion objectives. Then suddenly at level 80, they find out they need to grind karma. This is not a good experience.

    This is why I asked to for the game to involve the new player with crafting. At least then the crafting item drops would feel meaningful. I don't want to force new players to do things(many in here are sadly of the opinion that new players are lazy or too stupid to play the game or understand it) I want the rewards to be made to feel meaningful.

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I sold everything and bought exotics? I didn't feel getting a ton of mats on map completion was not meaningful. Course, I did full on 100% completion before moving on to HoT despite my friends wanting me to hurry and get gliding and such. I mean, core Tyria is such a tiny bit of the game, I know that now, but back then I thoroughly enjoyed map completion. I absolutely WANTED the title that came with it. Also I hit 80 well before map comp, and also, should I have needed karma, map comp will actually get you a ton. I also was doing world bosses for the achievements and THOSE give a ton also.

    I guess what it really boils down to is please don't make crafting obligatory ESPECIALLY for new players.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    Karma grind? You mean, interacting with systems in the game that provide karma? Such as doing daily achievements (For Central Tyria and LW maps), doing Fractals, doing Raids or engaging in content inside a LW map that offers Karmic Retribution?

    So you advocate for one system while totally being against another such as crafting?

    As opposed to what? Crafting? Which is, go to a website, find out what you need to craft then go stand in a town pushing the "Craft" button over and over until you have enough skill to push a button that says "Here, have the item you actually care about"?

    That is exactly what I am against. I mentioned in my original post that players should not go to an external website if they want to craft. Make crafting more intuitive. Besides that when most of the bonus rewards for event completion are crafting items, I feel that the game should at least teach the players what the drops are used for.

    Unless you're trying to argue that the obtaining of materials (Through, running around using gathering tools for ore/lumber/plants or for trophies, sitting in the middle of a bunch of trash enemies farming them for hours on end) is more "Interactive"?

    Aren't event completion rewards crafting materials? The whole game's reward system is based around crafting materials LOL. I did not design the game that way. I am merely pointing out the gap between the rewards and the incentive.

    Which would require a complete and total overhaul of the games crafting system to actually be engaging gamplay, before your suggestion of increasing the focus on crafting would actually make any sort of improvement to gameplay engagement.

    Then they should overhaul the system. MY whole focus around crafting is due to the fact that as I now mention for the countless time, the entire game's reward system and drops are crafting materials. Every map's reward track is crafting materials, we are filling our bags with crafting materials all the time and many have no idea what to do with them as the game never bothers to tell you. Is going to the wiki to learn about the basic drops in GW2 a good thing?

    The way the game itself is structured, it's all about finding what you as an individual finds engaging. If new players come in, try out the games systems (Leveling up, doing some map completions, dabbling in some crafting, maybe do a dungeon, some WvW and a bit of PvP) and doesn't like it, well it's possible that the game just isn't for them. Not everyone will like the same things.

    Rewards make event completion more meaningful. Think of it this way, if the game does not have any rewards or drops in place, will people do events? No they would not. Who would find anything engaging when the rewards are non-existent? That is the reason dungeons are dead. At least by teaching the players crafting, the rewards would make much more sense.

    But don't force anyone into a particular activity. That's not how you retain new players, that's how you get new players to leave when they're forced to do stuff they don't like. It's one of the reasons why PvP in this game auto-levels you to 80 and lets you pick up whatever gear you want from the vendor, so that PvP fans, don't have to wade through 80 levels of PvE and then grind PvE content to get the gear they need to do PvP.

    How would players even know what they like in the game when all the game lays out for you are hearts and map completion? Everything else requires you to go to the wiki.

    Exploration literally is encouraged in the game. That's why you get rewards for map completions. That's why the content guide will literally point you towards exploring the current map if there's not an event nearby and you aren't tracking a story quest. In fact, with the Elite Specializations, they have also come with collections for their weapons in which one of the points is "Get a map completion in [Current Expansion Zone] as X Class" which ends up with you obtaining an Ascended quality weapon.

    The only time you feel excited for map completion rewards is when a black lion key drops. The other rewards feel meaningless for a new player. For a new player, elite specs mean nothing.

    Hearts removed from expansions? PoF is full of hearts. In fact, mount acquisition is tied to completing hearts. Then of course the LW maps have REPEATABLE HEARTS. Meaning every day, it gets reset and you can do the heart again for more rewards (Also, to access the vendor again)

    The amount of hearts in the expansion maps were reduced drastically.

    Making heart completion mandatory isn't a good thing. Making anything mandatory isn't a good thing. Luckily, at the moment, nothing in GW2 is mandatory.

    When there is no other objective in game for a new player, the heart completion is mandatory as that is the only thing a new player can see out there.

    At around level 5-6, every character working through their starter zone winds up at a town/camp that is full of crafters where they can learn to craft. Characters also get given a set of gathering tools as a level up reward.

    Putting you in a camp with crafting stations is not teaching you crafting. In ESO, you are required to craft certain items each day. So the game makes you look for a recipe, then has you explore for items. On crafting the required item, you are then rewarded with gold and higher tier crafting materials and your crafting skill goes up. So there is a reward, even the crafting items you find in game now have a purpose and are used up regularly and you are genuinely excited when you get rare crafting drops.

    Every 10 levels, you get a mail sent to you telling you about a new dungeon.

    They might as well delete the mail as dungeons are empty.

    The content guide will literally point you towards events that are happening. With some things like World Bosses and Bloodstone Crazed monsters being announced zone wide with a zone wide marker on the minimap.

    Again the drops for doing these events are crafting items. If the player is not taught crafting, what else does he do with the drops? Sell them on the tp and play AdVenture Capitalist?

    WvW gets announced as a level up reward at level 31 (60 for F2P accounts)

    WvW is an utter failure in the game. The participation rates are low the way it is introduced to the new player is lazy. A new player is just dumped into WvW and gets deleted by the more experienced players. It is like dumping someone in the ocean without teaching him to swim. GW2 barely teaches you the game systems, it does not encourage you to get high tier gear, and you think putting someone in WvW is a good idea?

    There's an entire line of Mastery points dedicated to crafting Legendaries and running Fractals.

    When the new player is not even taught crafting, why would he even bother with legendaries? Let us be honest, to craft legendaries you need to go to the wiki. How many players would do that?

    Raids get announced if you go near an entrance portal (I think they're also mentioned upon hitting level 80 too)

    When dungeons are dead what makes you think a new player will get excited for raids?

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You must be playing a different game, as I rarely get mats for completing an event. Not sure I ever do, actually.
    Crafting is optional, as it should be. Many players never craft, or rarely craft.
    Mats from map completion or bonus map rewards are another form of Gold.

    You know, we were all new players at one time, and managed to figure out how to play the game. Now, there's the New Player Tutorial, as well as the New Player Experience which offers a ton of information. Also, there's not a better game Wiki to be found, and that's a good thing.

    It's probably best not to compare one game with another, or try to bring another game's mechanics to this one.
    If another game suits your desires, there's always the option to play that game.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    So you advocate for one system while totally being against another such as crafting?

    I'm not advocating any system.

    I'm merely pointing out that this idea of a "Karma grind" you have idealized as the end-all-be-all of playing GW2 in a way that is one dimensional, actually has interactions with multiple systems.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    That is exactly what I am against. I mentioned in my original post that players should not go to an external website if they want to craft. Make crafting more intuitive. Besides that when most of the bonus rewards for event completion are crafting items, I feel that the game should at least teach the players what the drops are used for.

    Which would require again, an entire overhaul of the crafting system, since it's designed around the Discovery system. Which the game does tell you about when you talk to the crafting trainers.

    Also, in many cases, the game does teach players what drops are for. Many of the rare, account bound, items state on them "Used to craft Exotic/Ascended/Legendary equipment"

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Aren't event completion rewards crafting materials? The whole game's reward system is based around crafting materials LOL. I did not design the game that way. I am merely pointing out the gap between the rewards and the incentive.

    It depends on what events you're doing.

    HoT map events provide currency for the local faction vendors. PoF map events provide Trade token things. LW map events provide currencies for that map.

    Central Tyria you get more crafting materials (By way of Map Reward tracks), but you also obtain gear, which can be useful if you're not just buying Exotics off the TP. Not to mention Karma and experience (Though, once at level 80 and capped on masteries I admit that experience does only become Spirit Shards which are pointless outside Legendary crafting)

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Rewards make event completion more meaningful. Think of it this way, if the game does not have any rewards or drops in place, will people do events? No they would not. Who would find anything engaging when the rewards are non-existent? That is the reason dungeons are dead. At least by teaching the players crafting, the rewards would make much more sense.

    A few things to note here:

    1) The entirety of the game is literally about doing things because they're fun. That is the nature of horizontal progression (As opposed to vertical progression of most other MMO's, wherein your objective is to get the ever improving available gear). It is a core feature of the game that does lead to some players losing interest because they run out of things they find enjoyable (After doing all the LW stories, getting all the masteries, doing all the world bosses several times, doing fractals, raids, strikes, WvW, PvP etc... They get to a point where they're just doing stuff they've already done countless times before)

    2) The game does teach players about crafting. Also, it'd take some sort of brain dead idiot to not be able to figure out what all these crafting materials
    they keep getting are for in a game that has crafting in it. Sure, they might not know the recipes but they should have an idea that the items are there to craft with.

    If it's a case of not knowing which ones are valuable... Well, one can easily check TP prices... Typically rare and highly prized materials will sell for more, while common and easily obtained materials will sell for less (I.e. Ecto's sell for ~20s each. Meanwhile Milling Stones don't sell on the TP because everyone gets like a million of them by accident...)

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    How would players even know what they like in the game when all the game lays out for you are hearts and map completion? Everything else requires you to go to the wiki.

    I literally mentioned that the game points out all the different pieces of content. No wiki required.

    Like, it LITERALLY puts a big old sign in front of your face saying "LOOK HERE AT WHAT YOU CAN NOW DO!" to the point of being annoying when I'm leveling a new character and keep needing to close the kitten pop up box every level where it tells me about some "New" thing I already know about and have participated in...

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    The only time you feel excited for map completion rewards is when a black lion key drops. The other rewards feel meaningless for a new player. For a new player, elite specs mean nothing.

    Other rewards feel meaningless for a new player? Elite specs mean nothing to a new player?

    What?

    Map completion rewards offer gear. Which, if you're right and no-one wants to just buy stuff off the TP or from Karma vendors, is somewhat valuable (With high level zones giving guaranteed Exotics). Transmutation Charges are also valuable for new players, given that a primary reward offered by certain systems are skins and so being able to actually use said skins is a good incentive.

    Meanwhile, E-Specs are one of the highlights of the Expansions. Like a big part of marketing of the expansions is to access the new E-Specs. It's likely that one of the reasons a new player even started playing the game is because they heard about a cool E-Spec.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    The amount of hearts in the expansion maps were reduced drastically.

    Yes? Due to there being fewer maps in expansions than in Central Tyria? Also, due to the fact that PoF takes place in a DESERT and thus there is a smaller percentage of populated areas that make sense to have hearts (Heck, we have a heart for Choya...)

    If hearts were unpopular as you suggest, they wouldn't have added repeatable hearts in the LW maps. Nor would they have brought back hearts to the main expansion after HoT which featured no hearts.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    When there is no other objective in game for a new player, the heart completion is mandatory as that is the only thing a new player can see out there.

    Again, this is false. As I've mentioned. The game points out a number of activites available. Also, heart completion is not mandatory even in the case that a player doesn't see the giant pop up telling them about things because they'll definitely see the events pop up and know that they can do events for experience in lieu of hearts.

    It's interesting though, that you're becoming so adamant about new players only seeing hearts after posters had to tell you that hearts were an objective that players had.

    It seems as though you really have no clue about what new players actually see.

    Fun fact: I returned to the game after leaving pre-HoT only a few weeks back. So I entered the game as a "Newbie" quite recently and rolled up a brand new Revenant and level up from 1-80 doing events and hearts and map completions, while finding out about stuff like the new WvW and PvP reward tracks, Legendary crafting (While it existed before, it was unclear on how to proceed outside consulting the wiki. These days it's very straight forward since the masteries direct you towards the dude in LA who sells the collections and then you simply look at the collections to find out where to get each item required to get the recipe). I wandered by a Raid entrance because it was a weird symbol on my map and was told about raids

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Putting you in a camp with crafting stations is not teaching you crafting. In ESO, you are required to craft certain items each day. So the game makes you look for a recipe, then has you explore for items. On crafting the required item, you are then rewarded with gold and higher tier crafting materials and your crafting skill goes up. So there is a reward, even the crafting items you find in game now have a purpose and are used up regularly and you are genuinely excited when you get rare crafting drops.

    In ESO, you are not requried to craft. You can, if you want to, but you don't have to. Even those daily crafts aren't necessary if you're actually crafting, they just offer a minimal investment of crafting in order to level up.

    Also, if you bother to actually speak with any of the crafting trainers that are stood next to the crafting stations, they literally tell you all about crafting. How to craft, how to discover recipes, what each crafting discipline can make etc.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    They might as well delete the mail as dungeons are empty.

    That's a different problem entirely. The fact is, players are notified of the existence of dungeons. The poor population of Story Mode runs doesn't stop that and heck, in a few more levels those players can hop into an exploration mode run which aren't infrequent.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Again the drops for doing these events are crafting items. If the player is not taught crafting, what else does he do with the drops? Sell them on the tp and play AdVenture Capitalist?

    Again, it depends on which events you're doing.

    Also, if a player is given crafting items... They can decide themselves if they want to try crafting or just sell the items and get gold to fund whatever they want (Buying items from TP, trading gold for gems etc)

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    WvW is an utter failure in the game. The participation rates are low the way it is introduced to the new player is lazy. A new player is just dumped into WvW and gets deleted by the more experienced players. It is like dumping someone in the ocean without teaching him to swim. GW2 barely teaches you the game systems, it does not encourage you to get high tier gear, and you think putting someone in WvW is a good idea?

    Do I think putting someone in WvW is a good idea? It matters not.

    The fact is, players are told about the WvW game mode and they can try it at their leisure. Also, not all of WvW is people ganking newbies, there's a lot of other things that happen there as well, such as running around doing some PvE objectives to work on the reward tracks and familiarize oneself with how the mode works

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    When the new player is not even taught crafting, why would he even bother with legendaries?

    Because he sees someone running around with a shiny, glowing weapon that makes them glow and leave shiny footfalls and goes "I want that!"? Like literally everyone else who has obtained a Legendary?

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    When dungeons are dead what makes you think a new player will get excited for raids?

    If this isn't their first ever MMO, they they'd know that dungeons are often dead content and PvE communities shift towards raids which is usually the more interesting form of instanced content.

    Also, one could also open up the LFG window and have a look at people recruiting for raids. Since that's a thing that players get told about too.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    You must be playing a different game, as I rarely get mats for completing an event. Not sure I ever do, actually.

    Really? What are your drops then? Even the map bonus rewards are crafting materials.

    Crafting is optional, as it should be. Many players never craft, or rarely craft.

    Crafting is not made optional here. It is not even introduced to a new player. To many it is non-existent.

    Mats from map completion or bonus map rewards are another form of Gold.

    Like I asked, is this an MMO or a farming simulator. If gold is all what matters, people will just cluster to the more efficient farm trains.

    You know, we were all new players at one time, and managed to figure out how to play the game. Now, there's the New Player Tutorial, as well as the New Player Experience which offers a ton of information. Also, there's not a better game Wiki to be found, and that's a good thing.

    If players figured out the game, we would not have players running around with no food or portions, basic tier gear complaining about difficulty. I do not blame the player here, I blame the game that barely lets the player know what the game contains. HoT needed to get the difficulty reduced. Even now players complain about the difficulty of the game. GW2 devs pointed out that they cannot create challenging content because of the massive gap in damage between the average player and the more involed players.

    It's probably best not to compare one game with another, or try to bring another game's mechanics to this one.

    I only compared ESO to GW2 because ESO does a better job with the new player experience. I prefer GW2 and I play it more often, but something needs to be done to let new players know what the game has. The game is so much more than selling loot for gold.

    If another game suits your desires, there's always the option to play that game.

    This logic is harmful because there might be a system in place that you might not be happy with. Will you then just quit and play another game?

  • @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If another game suits your desires, there's always the option to play that game.

    This logic is harmful because there might be a system in place that you might not be happy with. Will you then just quit and play another game?

    No, you accept it and get it done so you can continue to like the rest :+1:

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Here's what I usually get: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_event#Event_rewards
    The Chests, if awarded, usually have Blue or Green Unid Gear; sometimes Rare Unid Gear.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    GW2 is a great game, but for new players not so much. While the game has fixed objectives for lvl 80 players with daily strikes, fractals, legendary obtainment etc, for the new player there is no definite aim which imo is really bad. As a new player the GW2 experience is basically hearts and map exploration. This sounds good. BUT, in a game where the rewards are crafting materials, there is no incentive to craft items! There are no recipe vendors that give you an idea of what you can do with the materials you have gathered, there is no daily crafting to even get you started in crafting. Instead you are left with mindlessly going through the open world with zero objective until it becomes boring and you quit the game. For the new player, the game desperately needs objectives. Put in a system where the new player can obtain recipes to craft level 80 exotic gear, this way the player will know what certain materials are used for and the player will have the objective of going out and gathering those materials, participating in events, etc. This will make the leveling up experience rewarding and fun. Put in a system of daily crafting. We should not go to an external website to begin crafting! This is a game where the rewards are crafting materials, introducing crafting to new players should be high up on the priority list. Have a daily dungeon system similar to the daily strike missions with rewards at the end of the week. I feel like these daily missions can be given out at the order you joined (vigil, priory, whispers). The order can give out daily missions with recipe rewards so you actually feel like an initiate climbing up the ranks and by the time you reach 80, you would have crafted your armor and weapons ready to explore Tyria and beyond.

    Totally unrelated: Please can we have campfires in maps as a place to cook food.

    Regarding crafting, one of the things that the game doesn't teach new players at all, is that low level materials are very important to make high end items. For example, as a new player you get some Engraved Totems killing Grawl in Timberline Falls. You open the TP and find out that they are selling for 8 silver each. Because you don't want to craft anything, you simply sell it. Then at a later point in the game you figure out that you need even lower tier Totems to make a Gift of Totems which is used in some Legendary Crafting.

    Tier 2 Clothing material Wool is more expensive than all other, higher tier, clothing materials, yet the new player that gets it doesn't know it's used in Ascended armor crafting.

    There are loads of similar examples of how lower tier materials are used in top quality items yet that fact isn't known to the player, so they can make an informed decision whether to sell it or store it for later when they need it. Not to mention the conversion recipes, that allow you to convert low tier materials to higher tiers (most of the time it's not worth it)

    That said, I'm not sure how the requirements for legendary/ascended crafting can be made known to new players. Maybe a mark on the material, right where it says "used by Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, etc" "also used in Legendary/Ascended crafting" could do the trick, so new players who see these materials ask around or do a wiki search on what that means.

  • I hear what people are saying here, but I think it's GREAT to not have a forced objective (which would imply that the game has no depth and only has one way to progress). As a new player, my only driving force was the little number at the bottom left that told me my level and then subsequently my mastery rank. After getting a sweet deal early this month on the expansions, I just want to be able to play with the few buddies I have who got me into the game. There is SO MUCH to this entire world that it should never force people into one way of playing.

    TBH, I think the real hard part is finding a good community. Since I don't know very many people, I think community building and finding communities are the most challenging. To make matters worse, I found out buddy lists are useless for speaking to buddies as a group, and I am probably just following people who are not following me back. Additionally, I just realized we can be part of 5 guilds so there should be something to support that feature.

    I can find the guild section of the forum, but I can't really tell what a guild is like unless I get into one. As a new player, my concern is the need for an in-game system that can enable players to find a guild and for guilds to seek out players and to share events with the community at large in-game and not have users wildly alt+tabbing to the forum and back (I already have the wiki ready to go; can I limit my alt-tabbing please?). The disconnect between the forum and the game is huge when it comes to communities. The ones I encounter in-game tend NOT to be the ones that are heavily recruiting on the forums. In fact, I have never seen any of the front page forum guilds in game yet (yes, I am aware about NA and EU server differences).

    I think you're right about crafting, however. I just recently heard about it being the primary way to make the best gear in the game. There really isn't a big side quest to adventure into the world of crafting. I was told Chef had an interesting journey after level 400 or something, but that's it. I was really fortunate in that my second day of Triple Trouble was the day I got my first ascended box (that was less than a week into the game). I was so new I didn't know about linking items and saw others link their drops after the event.

    The new player experience could be improved, but I don't necessarily think we're completely on the same page. I think random people have been nice when answering questions I couldn't wiki or just getting things done on a map; I just haven't found ways to jump into guilds themselves. I'm part of one but it's a small, friend's guild of beetle enthusiasts. This is Guild Wars 2 right? What gives? Or is there some sort of invisible barrier I have to clear as a new player?

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the LFG has a Guild section; have you tried that?
    If you see some Guild members doing some content you enjoy, or chatting in /map with conversation you appreciate, have you tried approaching them about joining their Guild?

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    I flatly disagree with the idea that the new player experience needs to revamp how gear is obtained. I started this game 4 years ago as a completely free to play account, and leveled several (I think 3?) characters to 80 before buying into HoT. In my experience, the free gear you get (I think you end up in all exotics and rares by the end) through completing story and leveling up to 80 is sufficient to put the average player in a spot to begin the process of obtaining exotics via crafting or TP.

    If a new player finds that the free set of gear is just not workable by the time you reach Orr, that indicates that they probably have an un-sound build (if they even put any real thought into it at all). Even though the free gear is enough, stat-level wise, as a starter set, it will prove nearly useless if you don't choose the gear piece that fits well with your chosen damage/weapon playstyle.

    That, to me, is the real issue with the new player experience. It's just so easy that new players are rarely challenged to actually figure out how the game works. They just pick a weapon for looks or for some RP-esque reason, pick a hodgepodge of stats, push their way though a good portion of the story half-asleep, then wonder why nothing works at 80. I think my point is well proven by how many new players have an absolutely abysmal experience with using 80 boosts. You get instant access to a full set of core traits, skills, and (an admittedly suboptimal) set of exotic gear, but that doesn't solve the underlying problem of the player not knowing how anything works. All this talk of changing how gear is obtained and what rewards are handed out early on - all that will do is more of the same nonsense that 80 boosts already do.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with the PvE reward structure at the moment, especially when it comes to new players.