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NO STUN ALLOWED (Cutting Back on Hard CC)

Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited May 22, 2020 in PVP

This list is a humble product of a week's worth of boredom with the intent to cut back on hard CC durations, outright replace hard CC with alternative playstyle-generating options, and trim back on the ability of certain weapons and skills to stall out combat for protracted periods of time.

The worst part is that, despite its ludicrous size, this isn't even a truly complete list. Weapons like Warrior hammer and maces just sit dust-covered in the corner after being rendered utterly worthless. There are still a myriad of other skills and traits which go unnoticed because they aren't "good" enough, but they still carry oppressive amounts of hard CC or immobilize; or they are part of a weapon set or build which is generally super low-risk for the kind of returns it garners (regardless of whether or not it's a meta set-up or not). If anything, it's worth looking at some of the more prevalent examples of hard CC in PvP right now and start culling from there. I can imagine that plenty of people won't like anything in this list, but honestly, it's either a matter of letting people just... press buttons and use WASD or somebody at anet is eventually going to say that everybody should constantly have multiple stacks of stability again. Rather than pushing numbers up and down, you guys need an actual solution to the over-saturation of hard CC. This game already has enough instant teleports along with evasion and blocking baked into offensive actions; having high amounts of hard CC on top of all of that does nothing but ossify any sort of attempts to experiment within the metagame.

ELEMENTALIST

[Polaric Leap]
Activation: ½s / Recharge: 12s
Teleport to the target area. If there is an enemy in the area, gain superspeed and, after a delay, lightning strikes the area, damaging foes.

  • Number of targets: 5
  • Superspeed (3s): Movement speed is greatly increased.
  • Damage: (1.0)
  • Delay: 1s
  • Radius: 180
  • Combo Finisher: Leap
  • Range: 600

Delay period similar to the [Convergence] skill.

[Mud Slide]

  • Knockdown duration reduced from 2s to 1s.
  • Mud Duration reduced from 3s to 1½s.

[Katabatic Wind]

  • Damage reduced from (0.88) to (0.6).
  • No longer inflicts daze.
  • Now Immobilizes foes for 1s.
  • Now also grants Superspeed (3s) to allies within its radius.

[Gale Strike]

  • Float duration reduced from 1¼s to 1s.

[Earthen Synergy]

  • Stun duration reduced from 1½s to ½s.
  • This skill is now unblockable and ground-targeted with 180 radius; hits up to 5 targets.

[Comet]

  • Daze duration reduced from 2s to 1s.
  • This skill is now ground-targeted.

[Shocking Aura] (skill)
Recharge: 20s

  • Blind nearby foes and gain a shocking aura.
  • Number of targets: 5
  • Blind (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.
  • Radius: 240
  • Shocking Aura (4s): Your attacks are unblockable and inflict weakness (1-second cooldown per target). Attacks against weakened foes remove stability.
  • Weakness (2s): -50% Endurance Regeneration, 50% Fumble (Unrestricted)
  • Boon removed: [Stability]

[Shocking Aura] (aura effect)

  • Shocking Aura (Xs): Your attacks are unblockable and inflict weakness (1-second cooldown per target). Attacks against weakened foes remove stability.
  • Weakness (2s): -50% Endurance Regeneration, 50% Fumble (Unrestricted)
  • Boon removed: [Stability]

If not this, then something else, because this skill is one of the worst offenders of passive CC application in the game. The user can't even properly control it; it's just a free-fire, no-thought reward for being hit.

[Updraft]

  • No longer launches foes.
  • Recharge reduced from 40s to 30s.
  • Roll re-worked to mimic the Thief [Roll for Initiative] skill. Evade duration reduced from 1s to ¾s.
  • Using this skill now fully recharges [Ride the Lightning] as well as all attunements. [Ride the Lightning] no longer has the "halve recharge if it hits" clause, and its base recharge is lowered from 30s to 25s.

[Updraft] (alternative)
Recharge: 25s
Leap high into the air while evading attacks. Recharge Ride the Lightning.

  • Superspeed (5s): Movement Speed is greatly increased
  • Evade: 1 second

Jump height equivalent to a Skyhammer jump pad (particularly the original version). Allows complete control of player movement during the jump. Same [Ride the Lightning] changes as above. We ought to be able to use [Ride the Lightning] in mid-air again. Doing that was cool.

[Tornado]

  • Form duration reduced from 10s to 5s.
  • Stability changed from pulsing to a single application upon skill activation: 2 stacks; 5s duration.
  • Recharge reduced from 90s to 60s.

[Glacial Drift]
Activation ¼s / Recharge: 15s

  • Dual Attack. Whirl forward, chilling foes in your path.
  • Stability (3s): Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared or taunted.
  • Number of targets: 3
  • Number of impacts: 8
  • Damage: (0.45)
  • Chilled (2s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement Speed
  • Radius: 130
  • Combo Finisher: Whirl
  • Range: 900

Not a daze skill, but while looking some stuff up, I found this pathetic excuse for creativity and decided that it could do with something better. Now, it's a [Fiery Whirl] clone that grants stability (and passive barrier because it's a weaver dual attack).

[Tailored Victory]
Activation: 1s
Break stun and briefly evade attacks. Reduce the recharge of all skills in your current attunement.

  • Superspeed (2s): Movement speed is greatly increased.
  • Evade: 1 second
  • Breaks Stun
  • Recharge Reduced: 100%

Only recharges the currently active weapon bar. Reduce [Weave Self]'s recharge from 90s to 50s. This might be a huge mistake, but it's the first result of a desperate search for something that isn't just another "HAHA, HARD CC ELITE. SO COOL, RIGHT, GUYS?" skill.

[Plasma Beam]

  • Needs some sort of re-work just so that it doesn't get mega abused by the above [Tailored Victory]. This skill is boring as all get out anyway.

Stormsoul

  • No longer increases outgoing stun duration.

WARRIOR SHIELD

[Shield Bash]
Activation: ¾s / Recharge: 15s
Gain barrier and charge forward with your shield, striking foes in your path. Struck foes lose defensive boons.

  • Barrier: 1,018 (0.2)
  • Number of targets: 3
  • Damage (9x): (0.009)
  • Boons removed: [Aegis], [Stability], [Resistance]
  • Range: 600
  • Unblockable

Borrows the movement script from Revenant [Surge of the Mists].

[Shield Stance]
Activation: 2s / Recharge: 20s

  • Block up to three attacks against adjacent allies. If you block three attacks, gain adrenaline and grant barrier to adjacent allies.
  • Shield Stance|3|: Blocks attacks.
  • Number of allies: 5
  • Radius: 180
  • Barrier: 1,618 (0.2)
  • Adrenaline: 10

Works akin to Guardian [Protector's Strike] except with 3 charges (3 blocks) and a smaller effective radius. A fixed block counter and shorter overall channel time keeps it from stalling combat too much while also demanding tighter timing (and possibly positioning) from the user for the best reward; also justifies a shorter cooldown.

WARRIOR

[Head Butt]

  • Stun duration reduced from 3s to 2s.

[Disrupting Stab]
Recharge: 12s

  • Daze your foe with a dagger stab. Taunt and slow adjacent foes if you interrupt a skill.
  • Damage: (0.1)
  • Daze (¼s): Unable to use skills.
  • Range: 130
  • Number of foes: 5
  • Taunt (1s): Involuntarily attack foes.
  • Slow (1s): Skills and actions are slower.
  • Radius: 180

[Full Counter]

  • No longer inflicts daze.
  • Damage modifier increased from (0.1) to (0.75)

When it comes to single skills, this is still the best paragon of passive-play, crutch skill available to anyone in GW2 based on fundamental game design principles. It's a direct upgrade for any class to be able to just throw an unblockable, 300-unit radius, PBAoE version of [Illusionary Riposte] onto the skill bar with effectively no strings attached. At least if this version were to hit players, it won't stall the game out even more than the initial one to two seconds involved with channeling and then freely attacking with this skill. It's a bad design, and it doesn't deserve to be good. It's just a shame that somebody approved this superficial anime/manga reference to be the centerpiece of an elite spec. Re-work it entirely if you don't want it to be deservedly crippled forever.

Magebane Tether

  • Now only applies when striking a foe with Full Counter. Multiple foes can now be tethered at once if multiple foes are struck by a single Full Counter.

If only Full Counter were an active attack rather than a reactive, passive effect that only triggers on block.

GUARDIAN

[Dragon's Maw]

  • Duration reduced from 4s to 2s.
  • Recharge lowered from 50s to 45s.

All of these dumb things are just thrown on top of each other anyway. The initial pull is really the only important part of this silly skill.

[Blazing Edge]
Activation: ¾s / Recharge: 8s
Slide forward and blast the area in front of you, burning foes.

  • Number of Targets: 5
  • Damage: (1.0)
  • Burning (3s): [damage]
  • Combo Finisher: Blast
  • Radius: 240
  • Range: 600

Reskin of Elementalist [Burning Speed]. No evasion because FB has enough garbage already.

[Chapter 3: Heated Rebuke]

  • No longer pulls or inflicts damage.
  • Now grants Fire Aura (3s) and retaliation (3s) to allies within a 240 radius.

Unrelenting Criticism

  • Symbol of Vengeance no longer inflicts daze.

NECROMANCER

["Chilled to the Bone!"]

  • Stun duration reduced from 3s to 1s.
  • Activation reduced from 1¼ to 1s.
  • Stability stack duration reduced from 10s to 5s.
  • Chilled duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

Fear of Death

  • No longer extends duration of fear.

MESMER

[Magic Bullet]

  • Daze duration reduced from 2s to ½s.
  • Stun duration reduced from 2s to ½s.
  • Blindness duration reduced from 5s to 2s.
  • Recharge reduced from 25s to 5s.
  • Now has an ammo count of 2. Count recharge set to 30s.

[Phantasmal Mage]

  • No longer inflicts daze.
  • Recharge reduced from 30s to 25s.

[Chaos Storm]

  • No longer inflicts daze.
  • Recharge reduced from 35s to 25s.

Tides of Time

  • Stun duration reduced from 1s to ½s.
  • Recharge reduced from 40s to 25s.
  • Recharge no longer reduces if user touches the return pass.
  • Initial pass no longer grants quickness.
  • Initial pass now removes movement slowing conditions (Crippled, Chilled, Immobilize) and grants Superspeed (5s).
  • Alacrity duration increased from 2s to 4s.

[Illusionary Wave] (5)
Activation: ½s / Recharge: 10s
Daze, cripple and blind foes in front of you with a wave of illusionary magic. If you strike a foe with this attack, teleport to a random, nearby location and gain superspeed.

  • Number of targets: 5
  • Damage: (0.01)
  • Daze (¼s): Unable to use skills.
  • Crippled (2s): -50% Movement Speed
  • Blindness (2s): Next outgoing attack misses.
  • Superspeed (3s): Movement Speed is greatly increased.
  • Breaks Enemy Targeting
  • Maximum Count: 2
  • Count Recharge: 35s
  • Range: 450
  • Self-teleport Distance: 450
  • Unblockable

Self teleport akin to [Illusionary Ambush] except with a shorter leash on the maximum teleport distance. In the case of striking multiple targets at once with this skill, only the closest target is selected and used as the basis for the "random, nearby location" teleport. This circumvents the issue of how stability can often deny Mesmer greatsword some form of movement or spacing control. And for anyone who really cares that much about flavor, this is way more "Mesmer" flavor than actually pushing people away with magical energy.

[Signet of Domination]
Recharge: 25s
Signet Passive: Gain Dominant Aura whenever you disable a foe (stacks up to 3 times).
Signet Active: Break stun and lose all stacks of Dominant Aura. Create clones equal to the number of stacks lost in this way. You and your clones gain superspeed and teleport to a random point around your target.

  • Dominant Aura (60s): Smug.
  • Superspeed (5s): Movement speed is greatly increased
  • Breaks Enemy targeting
  • Range: 1,200
  • Breaks Stun

THIEF

[Palm Strike]

  • No longer inflicts stun.
  • Now inflicts daze for ½s.

[Mace Head Crack]

  • No longer inflicts stun.
  • Now inflicts daze for 1s.
  • Damage modifier reduced from (1.0) to (0.75).
  • This skill is now unblockable.

[Headshot]

  • Initiative cost increased from 4 to 5.
  • Alternatively, give it a recharge of 4s.

I still can't believe they put in a passive line that just gives Thieves more initiative for free and then balanced initiative costs as if everybody and their grandma wouldn't take it.

[Choking Gas]

  • Damage modifier reduced from (0.6) to (0.3).
  • Poison duration reduced from 3s to 2s.
  • Daze duration reduced from 1s to ½s.

Sleight of Hand

  • No longer inflicts daze.

It's easy enough to chain Steal with attacks that have baked-in evasion. If you're really going to be upset about your freebie, instant, movement skill not also interrupting your target, then at least reduce the daze duration to ¼s.

ENGINEER

[Supply Crate]

  • No longer inflicts stun.
  • Damage modifier increased from (0.01) to (0.5).

[Thunderclap]

  • No longer inflicts stun.
  • Now inflicts daze for ½s.
  • Damage modifier per pulse increased from (0.45) to (0.5).
  • Recharge reduced from 20s to 15s.

Flashbang

  • No longer inflicts daze.

Kinetic Stabilizers

  • No longer increases outgoing stun and daze durations respectively.

ENGINEER SHIELD

[Magnetic Shield]

  • Recharge reduced from 25s to 20s.

[Static Shield]
Activation: ¾s / Recharge: 20s
Send out bolts of electricity to mark nearby foes with Static Cling while briefly blocking attacks. Static Cling ends if a foe moves out of range. This skill chains into Static Pull.

  • Block: 1s
  • Number of targets: 5
  • Damage: (0.5)
  • Radius: 300
  • Static Cling (10s): Foes can be pulled to you.
  • Static Cling range: 600

More or less just a small spin on Guardian [Binding Blade] with a brief block mixed in (and some area control if you count the chain skill). This does make the skill far more active in application than its current iteration. Lower recharge helps keep things more dynamic as well.

[Static Pull]
Activation: ¾s

  • Create a pulsing electric field at your location, pulling foes marked by Static Cling to its center.
  • Number of targets: 5
  • Damage (4x): (2.4)
  • Pulses: 4
  • Interval: 1s
  • Combo Field: Lightning
  • Radius: 180
  • Unblockable

This skill ought to be able to bypass evasion just like Guardian [Pull].

REVENANT

[Jade Winds]

  • "Jade Duration" reduced from 3s to 2s.

Honestly, if this were just a cone-shaped attack with maybe a 600 range and a dynamic scaling effect to determine damage and stun duration (like the damage and bleeding stack calculations done for Engineer [Blunderbuss]), then the skill would be a lot better. That way, players would have to remotely aim the attack and be at a risky position for it to have its maximum effect. This could warrant a slightly shorter activation time and a lower energy cost, which means that the skill might actually see use rather than just sitting stapled to a forced utility bar.

[Call to Anguish]

  • No longer pulls foes.
  • Energy cost reduced from 35 to 30.
  • Recharge increased from 3s to 5s.
  • Radius reduced from 360 to 240.
  • Reduced damage modifier from (1.2) to (1.0).

RANGER

[Lunar Impact]

  • No longer inflicts daze.

[Concussion Shot]

  • No longer inflicts daze with a conditional stun.
  • Now always inflicts stun ¾(s).
  • Flanking strike is now unblockable.

[Prelude Lash]

  • Immobilize duration reduced from 2s to 1s.

Ancient Seeds

  • [Vine Surge] becomes an ammo skill. Spawn Seeds of Life on targets struck by Vine Surge.

[Vine Surge] has its base recharge lowered to 3s. It now has an ammo count of 2; count recharge set to 20s. More blind application, movement control and condition cleanse.

Primal Echoes

  • No longer inflicts daze.

RANGER GREATSWORD

[Enduring Swing] (1c)

  • Now also grants Superspeed (3s).

[Maul]

  • Recharge reduced from 8s to 2s. Now has an ammo count of 2. Ammo count recharge set to 10s.
  • Power modifier reduced from (1.36) to (0.75). Now deals double damage against immobilized targets.

[Swoop] (3a)
Activation: ½s / Recharge: 15s
Gain swiftness and leap at your foe while evading attacks. You briefly take less falling damage. This skill chains into Talon Sweep.

  • Number of targets: 3
  • Damage: (0.3)
  • Evade: ½s
  • Swiftness (10s): 33% Movement Speed
  • Range: 600
  • Combo Finisher: Leap
  • Talon Ready (5s): Take 50% less falling damage as you prepare to strike down with a powerful stab.

This skill now follows the same movement script as Guardian's [Leap of Faith]. This is now almost entirely just a movement skill and tech evade (particularly since it does so little base damage); the reduced fall damage allows people to leap in from high areas that are out of LoS in order to follow up with the chain skill without having to rely on the initial leap attack actually hitting anything.

[Talon Sweep] (3b)
Activation: ¾s
Swing with your greatsword, immobilizing adjacent foes.

  • Number of targets: 5
  • Damage: (0.85)
  • Immobilize (1½s): Unable to move.
  • Radius: 180

Borrows the animation from Necromancer [Gravedigger] scaled to a faster activation speed. Sets up for [Maul] bonus damage.

[Counterattack] (4a)
Activation: 1s / Recharge: 15s
Spin around, blocking attacks and striking adjacent foes. If you strike a foe, gain superspeed and Counterattack Kick can be used.

  • Number of targets: 5
  • Number of Impacts: 2
  • Damage (2x): (0.6)
  • Radius: 180
  • Unblockable
  • Combo Finisher: Whirl
  • Superspeed (5s): Movement speed is greatly increased.
  • Counter Ready (5s): Counterattack with a powerful kick.

Borrows the animation from Engineer [Electro-whirl]. Weak attack (0.3 power modifier per strike; could be buffed for PvE) and dependent on positioning; turns the previous, protracted block into a 1-second-long attack which forces people to be active with it rather than just passively stall for more cooldowns or run out of LoS.

[Counterattack Kick] (4b)

  • Activation: ¾s
  • Deliver a precise, powerful kick.
  • [Blindness]: Condition Removed
  • Resistance (1½s): Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration.
  • Number of targets: 3
  • Damage: (1.75)
  • Unblockable
  • Range: 130

This attack can really only be avoided via evasion; very hard-hitting (pre-nerf [Maul] damage) in order to punish people just standing around and pressing buttons. No longer evades during usage just to keep risk and fairness.

[Hilt Bash] (5)
Activation: ¼s / Recharge: 20s
Daze foes in front with a swipe from your hilt. Refresh your Swoop ability if you hit.

  • Number of targets: 2
  • Damage: (0.1)
  • Daze: ½s
  • Range: 130

Scripted movement dropped for a free-movement melee attack format.

Comments

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    gimme that permanent weave self baby

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Change title to "no fun allowed" IMO.

    CC-centric builds are fine when done well. Hammer warrior and core engineer have been focused heavily on CC and worked fine in the days before HoT power creep.

    What makes them work is that you can see the CC coming, and you can break out of the CC chain if you know when to do it and avoid further CC. Having CC usually means less spike damage.

    The problem CCs of today are hard to predict and avoid, often don't have a clear rhythm, or are coupled with heavy damage.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    Dodge. Hard CC doing no damage gives you time to use a stunbreak even on top of most of them having clear telegraphs. There's no reason for any of these changes.

    Tailor your focus to any CC that doesn't have clear telegraph if you feel compelled to suggest changes like this. Nerfing CC that already does no damage to also do less (or no) CC is just going to have people drop those options.

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    [Mace Head Crack]

    • No longer inflicts stun.
    • Now inflicts daze for 1s.
    • Damage modifier reduced from (1.0) to (0.75).
    • This skill is now unblockable.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mace_Head_Crack
    Read Tooltips before suggesting changes.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    How about no conditions allowed?

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    What I find hilarious after reading one list of changes:

    Stuns are bad so,

    • Sword Weaver, 12s CD targeted teleport added. Cause we should throw out all balance when it comes to targeted teleports.

    • Completely forget about CCs like Air Focus #5, Gale. 3s knockdown, no aim req, facing req, unblockable, long range, instant travel time. It's prob fine to leave this and delete a large amount of other CC.

    • Buff Weave Self cooldown so incredibly much so that Weaver can always have a Weave Self/Perfect Weave buff, and then make tailored victory resets cooldown of, say, Air Attunement, so just do another swirling winds and another omega knockdown (plus more). It's just as much potential CC as the previous float if you allow CDs to be reset.

    Ele changes are silver tier for sure, no hope in reading further

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭

    That's gonna be a hard no from me chief

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    25 might stacks every time a mesmer looks at me cross but shield takes a hit. Hmm 🤔

  • choovanski.5462choovanski.5462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    can tell OP has never had the misfortune of having to play warrior and had to use cc to set up large telegraphed attacks.

    if you can't dodge shield bash, and it's an issue- the problem isn't the skill, it's your snail pace reaction time. mayhaps you should consider learning how to dodge instead of trying to get all the cc skills removed?

    crying about warrior in current meta. smh dude. smh

    EDIT:
    also

    Supply Crate]

    No longer inflicts stun.
    Damage modifier increased from (0.01) to (0.5).

    WUT

    OP have you been getting owned by supply crate this hard? those turrets that scary you think they should be the elite all on their own, so it doesn't need the stun. oh my sides OP, oh my sides

    It's coming for me through the trees
    Help me someone
    Help me please
    Take my shoes off and throw them in the lake

  • I'll say at least I'm impressed by All the work you put into this.

    But regardless I'm going to say the same thing here that I say in all of the nerf CC threads.
    If you want to nerf CC you have to nerf active mitigation alongside it.
    With the low damage we all have we need CC to actually kill rangers revs and theifs.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 Couldn't agree more with your opinions on Full-Counter, The Jade Winds, and Slight-of-Hand. You did forget to remove CC from choking gas though. Although I think many of your ideas would have been decent if implemented at launch or with the trait reworks years back, these days they wouldn't fly with the playerbase if for no other reason than the way PvE-PvP skill splits work. PvE-ers would straight-up riot if they lost all their CC toys that anet hands out like candy with each new xpac.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @White Kitsunee.4620 said:
    I'll say at least I'm impressed by All the work you put into this.

    But regardless I'm going to say the same thing here that I say in all of the nerf CC threads.
    If you want to nerf CC you have to nerf active mitigation alongside it.
    With the low damage we all have we need CC to actually kill rangers revs and theifs.

    Or increase the damage? If PvP is so dependent on CC spam that you cannot kill anyone unless you chain CC them, balance went really south.

  • Caine.8543Caine.8543 Member ✭✭

    Just add a defiance-like system, or like the above poster said, if you break a stun you should get stability for 1.5 seconds or something.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8543 said:
    Just add a defiance-like system, or like the above poster said, if you break a stun you should get stability for 1.5 seconds or something.

    During HoT development, a few elite specs had a defiance bar. Tempest is the one I remember. It didn't work well in PvP, so ANet removed it.