Pure "Tank" builds should not be allowed

Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

People need to start thinking about how strategy is used to address these 'tactical roadblocks'. Super tanky builds are not an issue

Apparently...Tanky builds not an issue.Super sustain not an issue.Boons spam not an issue.Mass cleansing not an issue.Boon balls not an issue.Here's a strategy, get bored and log out.

Is this from a zerging perspective, roaming, or something else?

Pure tank = Trash damage.If you can't beat a tank but the tank can beat you then it's a good bet that you're far too invested in pure damage with no decent means of survivbaility or sustain.Simply adding a bit of that to a DPS build will probably make you unkillable to the Tank since you'll be outhealing their pitiful damage while they won't be able to fully outheal all of yours.Either that or it's a no win situation for both of you and most will want to bail on that pointless encounter once that sinks in as it's a literal waste of both your time.

Tanks are not as much a problem as everyone claims they are, they only really pose a threat to squishy glass canons since they are the only builds they can actually do any decent damage to and potentially kill.

@Teratus.2859 said:Pure tank = Trash damage.If you can't beat a tank but the tank can beat you then it's a good bet that you're far too invested in pure damage with no decent means of survivbaility or sustain.Simply adding a bit of that to a DPS build will probably make you unkillable to the Tank since you'll be outhealing their pitiful damage while they won't be able to fully outheal all of yours.Either that or it's a no win situation for both of you and most will want to bail on that pointless encounter once that sinks in as it's a literal waste of both your time.

Tanks are not as much a problem as everyone claims they are, they only really pose a threat to squishy glass canons since they are the only builds they can actually do any decent damage to and potentially kill.

Maybe he means dire or trail blazer builds. Im sure minstrel ain't be killing no one. Unelss there's 30 of them

Perhaps he is talking about some condi damage builds?

I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Pure tank = Trash damage.If you can't beat a tank but the tank can beat you then it's a good bet that you're far too invested in pure damage with no decent means of survivbaility or sustain.Simply adding a bit of that to a DPS build will probably make you unkillable to the Tank since you'll be outhealing their pitiful damage while they won't be able to fully outheal all of yours.Either that or it's a no win situation for both of you and most will want to bail on that pointless encounter once that sinks in as it's a literal waste of both your time.

Tanks are not as much a problem as everyone claims they are, they only really pose a threat to squishy glass canons since they are the only builds they can actually do any decent damage to and potentially kill.

The lack of specifics doesn't help that.Don't know what OP is playing or what they're fighting against.

@Teratus.2859 said:Pure tank = Trash damage.If you can't beat a tank but the tank can beat you then it's a good bet that you're far too invested in pure damage with no decent means of survivbaility or sustain.Simply adding a bit of that to a DPS build will probably make you unkillable to the Tank since you'll be outhealing their pitiful damage while they won't be able to fully outheal all of yours.Either that or it's a no win situation for both of you and most will want to bail on that pointless encounter once that sinks in as it's a literal waste of both your time.

Tanks are not as much a problem as everyone claims they are, they only really pose a threat to squishy glass canons since they are the only builds they can actually do any decent damage to and potentially kill.

What? In which competitive environment is any value added by an option to be unkillable by an opponent? On top we are still in an capture point based scenario. Imagine playing CS getting headshot after headshot and rofl over the map. Noone would play that. It's ok to have roles but if you go glass you should be able to kill everything in a reasonable amount of time if you land your stuff.

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

I would agree that ‘can’t be killed’ and ‘instant kill’ builds are both very unfun to play against. Thankfully the patch has resolved almost all instant kill builds. Unfortunately ‘can’t be killed’ has indeed become a problem.

From a 1 vs 1 perspective, I’ve watched many fights and while most classes can build for some degree of bunker sustain, they mostly still have some form of counter that can beat them. The opposing player would need to spec heavily or use other classes to counter that bunker build though.

For example, some matchups between good players I saw countering the sustain builds:

Condi berserker (bunker) beat Power DH.Power DH swap to sic em full glass soul beast and beat the bunker berserker.

Condi weaver (bunker) beat power soulbeast.Power soulbeast swap to condi Druid and beat the bunker weaver.

Unfortunately, the one outlier class that is very hard to counter now because of the reduced damage, is the signets core necro. The only classes that can do enough DPS to threaten them is the sic em soulbeast and deadeye. But even then, those classes need to outplay the necro massively to beat them. The other classes just don’t do enough spike damage to threaten the necro. At best, they can counter spec to draw so both sides can’t kill each other. But that is, as you’ve said, unfun.

I don’t think the solution is to reduce stat options though. Having more stat options is fun.

I feel that bunker is a problem because of certain builds having frequent access to almost constant healing. For example, high regen access, traited heal in shroud, heal on torment ticks, life steal etc.All these heals that are small but frequent enough, cause bunker builds to have too much sustain. Interrupting their actual heal skill becomes less effective because of almost constant healing from other sources.Nerf or replace those extra sources of healing and we should be able to resolve the sustain issue.

@schloumou.3982 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Pure tank = Trash damage.If you can't beat a tank but the tank can beat you then it's a good bet that you're far too invested in pure damage with no decent means of survivbaility or sustain.Simply adding a bit of that to a DPS build will probably make you unkillable to the Tank since you'll be outhealing their pitiful damage while they won't be able to fully outheal all of yours.Either that or it's a no win situation for both of you and most will want to bail on that pointless encounter once that sinks in as it's a literal waste of both your time.

Tanks are not as much a problem as everyone claims they are, they only really pose a threat to squishy glass canons since they are the only builds they can actually do any decent damage to and potentially kill.

You're not unkillable, nor are they.The problem im guessing OP is having is that they're fully invested in DPS and they're struggling against those more invested in tankiness, the tanks basically being able to sponge/avoid all the DPS and then kill the DPS players who have little to no defensive capabilities to allow them to sponge all the meager damage the tanks are doing.

It's classic high damage low defense vs high defense low damage.. the difference being that those playing tanks are often also investing in sustain and survivability since the whole point of a tank is to survive, and those playing for Damage are not going to have much sustain or survivability since the whole point of DPS is to blast the crap outta something untill it dies.

Tanks are self sufficient where as DPS relies heavily on support from others to survive.So tanks are going to win most of the time in a 1v1 scenario because they are a hard counter to the DPS playstyle in Gw2Therfore tanks are playing to their strength and winning.However a Tank with it's pitiful damage doesn't stand a chance against players working together, at best all they can do is stall them for a short while.. which in this scenario the DPS players playing to their strength instead and now they are winning.

My guess is the OP was used to running some iteration of "pew-pew" one-shot build, but the balance made it impossible for him/her 'pew-pew' anyone. Adapt and invest in some sustain + try playing those OP unkillable builds that you are referring to. This just might give you a clue how to kill them and maaaaaybe you will even see that they are far from unkillable. -shrug-

@Teratus.2859 said:Tanks are self sufficient where as DPS relies heavily on support from others to survive.So tanks are going to win most of the time in a 1v1 scenario because they are a hard counter to the DPS playstyle in Gw2Therfore tanks are playing to their strength and winning.However a Tank with it's pitiful damage doesn't stand a chance against players working together, at best all they can do is stall them for a short while.. which in this scenario the DPS players playing to their strength instead and now they are winning.

No offense but nothing you write is true. Tanks are as self sufficient as glass per definition because they lack damage and won't win any 1v1 because of that. And you can't discuss balance under the premise that you just bring more people.

@Shiyo.3578 said:Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds,

Skill is a crutch that is leant upon far too much by certain players. This is an awful state of affairs, with the vast majority of players being miserable in order to service these twitchy overlords. The game is already skewed in the favour of the Skillcrutch Twitchers, there should be much LONGER fights, rather than these ridiculous 1 microsecond burstfiestas and people who don't want to fight should get that option.

Let's be honest with one another here, Skillcrutch Twitchers err towards classes specifically designed for them and which prohibit normal people from using them. THAT is the real problem with balance, the core mechanics of many classes (specifically; elementalist, engineer, mesmer, thief) are only viable for people with fast hands and fast eyes.

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds,

And good ping

@kiwituatara.6053 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds,

They even cheat by looking up builds that make sense. It's so unfair!

Tank will never always outheal the damage of a DPS build. Eventually it will go down. Also, Tanks in this game are really not dangerous, just a little annoying when they have lots of cc.

@schloumou.3982 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Tanks are self sufficient where as DPS relies heavily on support from others to survive.So tanks are going to win most of the time in a 1v1 scenario because they are a hard counter to the DPS playstyle in Gw2Therfore tanks are playing to their strength and winning.However a Tank with it's pitiful damage doesn't stand a chance against players working together, at best all they can do is stall them for a short while.. which in this scenario the DPS players playing to their strength instead and now they are winning.

That's just flat out wrong, trust me.I've been playing and promoting Sustain based Tank builds since before HoT came out, they are VERY! self sufficient compared to glass builds because glass builds cannot out-heal most incoming damage thanks to their weak defense, this is especially true in competitive modes where many forms of sustain are heavily nerfed and require heavy investment to be viable.. something Tanks will do and Glass builds will not.

Tanks can and do win 1v1's because despite lacking damage most of the people they fight are lacking defense and sustain putting them at a great disadvantage against this playstyle.

well, when I am on my melee support build, I am tanky AF. But I can still be killed. My damage is so low it would take ages to kill anything. I survive 1v1 a bit longer than most one-shot-cheese-builds would like, but at the end, if I can't get away I will die. Being jumped by two or three gankers is instant death.

So I really don't see the problem.

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

What build were you dueling against? What build were you using?

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds,

I gathered from all your post and finally came out with a pvp format everyone will be happy.

It will be like a cowboy showdown where opponents face each other 1 on 1.

No running, no dodging.

Just like the old days, quickest draw of the pistol wins.

Well in this case fastest to smash skill button 1-5 and utility buttons win.

If your class has no range both opponents will stand in melee range.

Can't believe i just describe every single fighting console game ever...

Hey wait maybe you should...sounds like thats your thing.

@Teratus.2859 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Tanks are self sufficient where as DPS relies heavily on support from others to survive.So tanks are going to win most of the time in a 1v1 scenario because they are a hard counter to the DPS playstyle in Gw2Therfore tanks are playing to their strength and winning.However a Tank with it's pitiful damage doesn't stand a chance against players working together, at best all they can do is stall them for a short while.. which in this scenario the DPS players playing to their strength instead and now they are winning.

Ah ok. I was wondering why you would leave out the one key sentence about roles when you quote me. You seem to have no interest in talking about balance and game design at all. You basically just say: It is no problem because it is the way it is and it was and therefore it is no problem. I mean even here in this casual, poorly balanced, basically neglected MMO the one coherent choice of the devs everyone agreed on was to remove sustain from sPvP to avoid two bunkers literally /sit on a node next to each other in esl games because they couldn't kill each other.

@schloumou.3982 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Tanks are self sufficient where as DPS relies heavily on support from others to survive.So tanks are going to win most of the time in a 1v1 scenario because they are a hard counter to the DPS playstyle in Gw2Therfore tanks are playing to their strength and winning.However a Tank with it's pitiful damage doesn't stand a chance against players working together, at best all they can do is stall them for a short while.. which in this scenario the DPS players playing to their strength instead and now they are winning.

I have no interest in sPvP, and this is a WvW thread mostly.But anyway 2 bunkers sitting on 1 node is a dumb issue, turns the game from 5v5 with 3 capture points to a 4v4 with 2 capture points and both bunkers just become basically leechers and neither of them contibute to the match at all.. they're literally useless to both sides doing this.But im not interested in sPvP balance issues, I don't play the game mode enough to care and i've never been a fan of how PvP gear restricts build diversity either.. more so now that they are actively removing "problematic" stat set combos when people complain about them enough and making that problem even worse.

Besides is seems you are operating under the impression that sPvP Conquest is a Deathmatch game mode.. it's not, it's got far more in common with Domination or King of the Hill game modes where the goal isn't to kill the enemy team, it's to get more points than the enemy team, killing them is a secondary method of gaining points nothing more.If you want to specifically kill other players and win then play Team Deathmatch instead, those maps largely are pure deathmatch maps.Or Stronghold which is more an assault mission type game mode but still focuses on killing other players and taking their base.

The only issue I can sympathize with you on there is that there is a disproportionately small number of maps in these two game modes compared to Conquest.More maps and even more game modes are needed for sPvP all around imo.Likewise WvW could use a new map as well to make each Borderlands unique and finally get rid of that last duplicate Alpine map.