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Simple DPS Metre

All,

Any idea if it would be possible to get a simple in-game DPS only metre ?

Hear me out before you say arcdps...
Arcdps has its place for organising and sorting stuff out and should not be replaced or removed or banned.

A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:
Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

This would then be able to be enabled during strike missions, fractals, training golem and have an associated training tutorial that the brighter the green = higher the damage being done per minute. The golem DPS tutorial can award AP for each colour lit up - with a simple, do > 10K your DPS metre will show ‘color’ - try it now...

Right now the biggest barrier to strikes is that some individuals have no idea if they do DPS or what DPS is.

A really simple DPS in-game metre (no numbers) will help those who are learning the game get better who often won’t install arcdps. This way we can easily say to someone ‘look at your in game DPS colour it was “red” we need your DPS to be “green” to pass this area.

Many players new to strike missions have no idea there are DPS metres and are vary wary or running 3rd party tools.

We still need arc to run more detailed real time and post diagnosis analysis.

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Comments

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I personally am in favor of the game offering performance statistics for PvE. Relevant stats are available at the end of and in some cases during every PvP match and I don't see why PvE players shouldn't have similar measurements including Damage, Outbound Healing, and Boon Uptime.
    I do however see fault in a few of your points.

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:
    Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

    The problem with this is that the game would say "hey you are underperforming" . The would immediately rub a fairly large group of players the wrong way.

    Right now the biggest barrier to strikes is that some individuals have no idea if they do DPS or what DPS is.

    No... this isn't even in the top 5 barriers. Strikes can currently be accessed and completed without anyone using ARC.
    The first one can be solo'ed.
    The biggest barriers to Strikes are largely personal and community. I am sure legitimate handicaps are a larger barrier to participation.
    Strikes are extremely accessible content, and you barely need to be able to play your class to contribute on the first three.
    A lack of self awareness doesn't prevent people from engaging in this content.

    A really simple DPS in-game metre (no numbers) will help those who are learning the game get better who often won’t install arcdps. This way we can easily say to someone ‘look at your in game DPS colour it was “red” we need your DPS to be “green” to pass this area.

    And this is why a lot of people don't want them... exactly why.
    Nothing you can do or say will change a number of people's minds on one thing. They hold the very strong opinion that you should never, in any situation during a video game be called out for under performing. There are various reasons for people feeling this way, nothing you can do or say in this thread will change their minds.
    You've already said you want to use your new tool as a way to call people out.
    Your idea is DOA.

    Many players new to strike missions have no idea there are DPS metres and are vary wary or running 3rd party tools.

    Agree.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:
    Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

    The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:
    Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

    The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

    It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    And then people will only look at DPS as the all encompassing metric of every build and judge build base on DPS alone.
    Terrible idea.

    We already have a way to know if people are effective : the boss health goes down and your don't.

    This measures a group - what if it’s too slow, how would you identify people who are not doing enough DPS who said they were DPS ?

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I don't need or want any meters as official tools applied to the game.
    If elitists want to have meters, they should download the optional third party tools.
    In fact, I'd like Arenanet to restrict those third party tools to only display the DPS of people who have these tools installed.
    I don't need some strangers checking my DPS and crying about me enjoying what I play.

    It’s not elitist - and DPS metres are needed to diagnose group problems so they can be fixed - restricting to people who have it installed won’t work. Some content does need DPS checks and to obtain ‘gold’ level strikes does require some level of performance on certain bosses such as bone skinner.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TPMN.1483 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:
    Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

    The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

    It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

    The damage you can do on Dhuum is vastly different to the damage you do on Vale Guardian, they are no really "compatible"

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TPMN.1483 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:
    Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

    The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

    It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

    The damage you can do on Dhuum is vastly different to the damage you do on Vale Guardian, they are no really "compatible"

    Target DPS is not actually that much different at all if you look at various runs and check out the benchmarks on snowcrows site:
    https://www.snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

    Vale Guardian Target DPS is between 22-27K
    Dhumm Target DPS is between 21-27K

    In fact most of the bosses have average Target DPS between 20-30K with the exceptions being Qadim 1.0, Samarog and the DPS Golem bosses (Conjured Al. & Mursatt Overseer).

  • Carcharoth Lucian.1378Carcharoth Lucian.1378 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @TPMN.1483 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TPMN.1483 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:
    Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

    The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

    It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

    The damage you can do on Dhuum is vastly different to the damage you do on Vale Guardian, they are no really "compatible"

    Target DPS is not actually that much different at all if you look at various runs and check out the benchmarks on snowcrows site:
    https://www.snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

    Vale Guardian Target DPS is between 22-27K
    Dhumm Target DPS is between 21-27K

    In fact most of the bosses have average Target DPS between 20-30K with the exceptions being Qadim 1.0, Samarog and the DPS Golem bosses (Conjured Al. & Mursatt Overseer).

    But you didn't adress the main point : all this is highly depend on boon uptimes, positioning, support in general..
    Depend also on what you do in fights meca-wise :

    • a dps who eat mushroom on sloth won't have the dps that someone who don't. Is his dps will be bad for that? no because it's required to kill sloth.
    • a dps-green on dhuum (yeah some groups still do that cuz not everyone is capable of doing green ping-wise) won't have the same dps either..
      You can easily find others examples of that.

    I think arcdps already provide the necessary information, even if it could be improved (for tracking heal maybe). We don't really need another one (even more with imprecise info)

    (Also don't expect ppl to have perfect dps rotations like snowcrows)

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    I'd like to see a personal DPS meter which gives the players the tools needed to do some self reflection (not just for "Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids" but PvE in general). This DPS meter should include at least 4 informations:

    • your overall DPS (only counts the time you're in combat)

    and some informations specific to the last "boss type" enemy you fought:

    • your DPS vs. said boss
    • the number of players attacking the boss
    • how much damage you dealt (in % of his maximum health)

    With this players would have the tools needed to roughly gauge their performance which would be a great help for those who want to improve themselves / want to try out new builds.

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @TPMN.1483 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TPMN.1483 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:
    Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

    The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

    It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

    The damage you can do on Dhuum is vastly different to the damage you do on Vale Guardian, they are no really "compatible"

    Target DPS is not actually that much different at all if you look at various runs and check out the benchmarks on snowcrows site:
    https://www.snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

    Vale Guardian Target DPS is between 22-27K
    Dhumm Target DPS is between 21-27K

    In fact most of the bosses have average Target DPS between 20-30K with the exceptions being Qadim 1.0, Samarog and the DPS Golem bosses (Conjured Al. & Mursatt Overseer).

    But you didn't adress the main point : all this is highly depend on boon uptimes, positioning, support in general..
    Depend also on what you do in fights meca-wise :

    • a dps who eat mushroom on sloth won't have the dps that someone who don't. Is his dps will be bad for that? no because it's required to kill sloth.
    • a dps-green on dhuum (yeah some groups still do that cuz not everyone is capable of doing green ping-wise) won't have the same dps either..
      You can easily find others examples of that.

    I think arcdps already provide the necessary information, even if it could be improved (for tracking heal maybe). We don't really need another one (even more with imprecise info)

    (Also don't expect ppl to have perfect dps rotations like snowcrows)

    If someone with a DPS Metre cannot work out that people eating mushrooms (or doing a mechanic) will do less DPS than someone not.. well thats pretty silly....but a simple DPS in-game metre would at least help people have some idea if they are performing there is a large casual player base who will not install arcdps at all. This suggestion is not for the people who know all about boons, positioning, rotations - its aimed at the casual who has absolutely no idea what DPS they are doing and if its any good compared to other people within a range.

    If the DPS is shown to be low, the other things can then be looked at - boons, positioning, build, armor, runes etc - a ele doing 4K DPS (who is a DPS person) on a strike mission really should have some indicator on how they are performing compared to another DPS person doing 20k+.

    Part of the getting people to play better is to help them understand what they dont' know - giving them a simple indicator will at least start the interest in "I need to do more damage - how do I improve?"

    Many players need stepping stones from the 4K DPS ele to the 30K DPS ele - and often this will involve multiple jumps in proficiency over a period of time as they may not be able to absorb all the information required to get to 30K in one block of 10-15 mins of practice.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    If someone with a DPS Metre cannot work out that people eating mushrooms (or doing a mechanic) will do less DPS than someone not.. well thats pretty silly....

    Sure, yet it would happen because idiots are idiots.

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    but a simple DPS in-game metre would at least help people have some idea if they are performing there is a large casual player base who will not install arcdps at all.

    I get where you are coming from, I really do: you want to have an in-game easy to understand visual implementation so players can immediately judge their performance and see where they stand, maybe encouraging them to improve.

    Here is where the issues with this lie:

    • players actually interested in improving can already do so, even via in-game means
    • you are assuming every player will see this as encouragement. Careful: ignorance is bliss, and I guarantee you, quite a few players would take offense once they realized how terrible they are at this game
    • for a great deal of content, this type of performance measure is not even needed

    This is on top of any other issues which would arise from this.

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    Part of the getting people to play better is to help them understand what they dont' know - giving them a simple indicator will at least start the interest in "I need to do more damage - how do I improve?"

    You can lead a horse to water...

    You are trying to make players "drink" water who are not thirsty.

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    Many players need stepping stones from the 4K DPS ele to the 30K DPS ele - and often this will involve multiple jumps in proficiency over a period of time as they may not be able to absorb all the information required to get to 30K in one block of 10-15 mins of practice.

    As mentioned, players actually interested in improving will already put in the effort even without using arcdps (looking up builds, practicing a bit, asking guild members for help, etc.). Those left not improving right now are either incompetent, not interested or both.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Here is where the issues with this lie:

    • players actually interested in improving can already do so, even via in-game means

    But the game still doesn't give you any concrete data.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • you are assuming every player will see this as encouragement. Careful: ignorance is bliss, and I guarantee you, quite a few players would take offense once they realized how terrible they are at this game

    Which would require them to turn it on first and even then, in context of a personal DPS meter, there would be no way to tell whether or not their numbers are actually "terrible" unless they actively seek out the numbers from other players.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • for a great deal of content, this type of performance measure is not even needed

    Irrelevant, there is no need to require a "need" to implement something useful.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Here is where the issues with this lie:

    • players actually interested in improving can already do so, even via in-game means

    But the game still doesn't give you any concrete data.

    That's beside the point. If a player is interested in improving, they CAN do so. You are assuming that players will be purely motivated by having their performance judged/displayed. The fraction of players this would apply to is likely not as high as you think. Meanwhile the detriments and the players annoyed by this might be significantly higher, which is a net negative to the game.

    The very belief that by showing players how poor their performance is will be a net benefit to the game is flawed.

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • you are assuming every player will see this as encouragement. Careful: ignorance is bliss, and I guarantee you, quite a few players would take offense once they realized how terrible they are at this game

    Which would require them to turn it on first and even then, in context of a personal DPS meter, there would be no way to tell whether or not their numbers are actually "terrible" unless they actively seek out the numbers from other players.

    So, to summarize, you want a personal dps meter for players who likely:

    • will not be able to put this into context since they will likely lack a huge amount of knowledge
    • the feature its self will be lacking in it's most important functionality
    • the personal dps meter will not make external tools obsolete, so now you might get arguments if there are disparities between both (arcdps is not perfect and has deviations)

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • for a great deal of content, this type of performance measure is not even needed

    Irrelevant, there is no need to require a "need" to implement something useful.

    Absolutely relevant if you are dealing with a feature which might make players leave the game and is in no way needed for the vast majority of the game.

    TL;DR:
    Stop trying to "save" players from their personal inability to improve, especially if it comes with this many strings attached. You can't "make" players want to become better, you can at best assist them IF they come asking for help. That's by the way also a very good general advice for life: there is exactly 1 person whose actions you are in full control of: your own. The moment you try to make others do things against their will, you will get conflict.

  • Painbow.6059Painbow.6059 Member ✭✭

    I think it's an interesting idea, however, with respect I don't trust the developers to decide what is high or low dps. Furthermore, damage potential varies so much per encounter that implementing a 'simple' meter that takes account of each encounter would actually require a lot of analysis

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That's beside the point.

    Not if you put it in context of the topic of this thread unless you want to say that your comment itself was OT in which case I guess you would be right.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So, to summarize

    What exactly are you summarizing here? You're version of what you want to read into my post? I already explained it above, a personal DPS meter would still be useful to give you a rough idea of were you are in comparison to the player base as a whole and allow you to compare the performance of your builds with each other (or with other players if you choose to actively seek out their numbers).

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Absolutely relevant if you are dealing with a feature which might make players leave the game and is in no way needed for the vast majority of the game.

    This is rooted in nothing but baseless assumptions, the main issue people take with DPS meters is that they don't want other players to see their performance which wouldn't be an issue for a personal DPS meter. This also assumes that people who go out of their way to see their DPS are mostly incapable of handling the raw numbers which seems to be a rather condescending notion.

    I've played mmorpgs with personal DPS meters which are even more casual than GW2 and never (not even once) have I ever seen anyone complain about it or it being brought up as a reason for why "player X" left the game.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Absolutely relevant if you are dealing with a feature which might make players leave the game and is in no way needed for the vast majority of the game.

    This is rooted in nothing but baseless assumptions, the main issue people take with DPS meters is that they don't want other players to see their performance which wouldn't be an issue for a personal DPS meter. This also assumes that people who go out of their way to see their DPS are mostly incapable of handling the raw numbers which seems to be a rather condescending notion.

    I've played mmorpgs with personal DPS meters which are even more casual than GW2 and never (not even once) have I ever seen anyone complain about it or it being brought up as a reason for why "player X" left the game.

    Who is making baseless assumptions now? If you had spent even 1 second in the vast amount of threads on this issue, you would know that many players disagree with dps meters because they simply do not want to be pressured or feel under pressure. As are many other reasons, visibility from others is NOT the major one, nor the only one.

    There are dozens of past posters who demanded dps meters be disallowed completely and who openly stated that they would leave the game. You might want to dig through some of the past posts on this topic.

    FYI in order to advocate for a change to a given system, you should show how it is of significant improvement. I fail to see the significant improvement in this idea. Also again, for a feature NOT NEEDED in 95% of this games content,and most important, if desired available via 3rd party add-on for players who are interested. You are barking up the wrong tree m8.

    EDIT:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    This also assumes that people who go out of their way to see their DPS are mostly incapable of handling the raw numbers which seems to be a rather condescending notion.

    No, I am assuming that players who are interested in this information, and who are within a healthy state of mind and ability, will find a way to full-fill this desire. For all the remaining, I don't assume anything besides that they have decided that this specific type of information is not necessary to them or have never given it any thought.

    Why would I burden ANYONE with more information than they desire? Even more if they might not desire it in the first place be it due to lack of necessity or other factors?

    You assuming that players are to inept to get the necessary data they desire while at the same time being able to put this data into context or use it responsibly are the one being condescending, to the players who WILLINGLY do not want this data.

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    I've been using arcDPS for a few months now after being initially resistant to the idea of running a third party plugin. However, after using it and seeing my Power Weaver gameplay improve significantly, I don't think its possible to correctly evaluate your own performance without it.

    Its not just the meter itself - its the parsing of .EVTC logs with dps.report and moxie that gives you incredible insight into how you play, what kind of bad habits you have, what kinds of things you do differently to benchmarks and how much dps it costs you.

    For example, after watching an [SC] benchmark for Power Weaver I noticed that Fallen[SC] could spike over 60k/s and I could never reproduce this on the dps meter. The best burst I could do was 39k/s. It turned out that being 38 years old with tendinitis, my fingers are a lot slower and stiffer than they used to be. It took me 6.1 seconds to go from Quantum Strike to Firestorm (FGS 5). It took Fallen[SC] 3.4 seconds (!!).

    When I saw that information in a graph, that's when it finally dawned on me. I don't think I'm physically capable of 35k/s average, 63k/s burst. Not at my age and not with a chronic wrist injury, but acting on information provided by arcDPS, I was able to go from 18k/s to 30k/s average without straining my wrist. This is the most important thing about dps meters: they help you to correctly identify what is hindering your gameplay the most and what to focus your attention on.

    I got to see how clumsy my skill queuing was on a millisecond timeline. My opening rotation was frequently punctuated with auto 1s (there should be none in the burst phase from air/fire to fire/fire). I was ruining my dps uptime with aftercasts. For example, I was using FGS 5->4 and getting animation locked by Firestorm's aftercast instead of doing 4->5 and cancelling Firestorm's aftercast by dropping conjure weapon.

    My Primordial Stance alignment was all wrong. I didn't even know this was until Moxie presented it to me in a way that made sense - you want all your Primordial Stance ticks to be in fire attunement so you need to activate it at the last possible moment before switching to fire/fire. I like to have all my skill hotkeys adjacent to WSAD, so I end up using many ctrl and alt modifier shortcuts. This caused me to activate Arcane Blast and Primordial Stance early to avoid piling up hotkeys since I have to cast FGS and switch attunements at the same time. My elite hotkey = Ctrl + F and my air and fire attunement swaps are Ctrl +Middle Mouse Button and Ctrl + E respectively.

    Since I already stacked vulnerability to 25 with Quantum Strike and Lightning Storm, I was wasting my Primordial Stance because it was ticking 4 or 5 times in air attunement for vulnerability instead of ticking for burning in fire attunement. ArcDPS also helped me to understand where my damage was coming from on Power Weaver. The top 3 damage sources on my first 30k/s, 4 mill hp training golem run were:

    1. Flame Uprising (529.4k)
    2. Call Lightning (491.5k)
    3. Burning (305.7k)

    Yep, burning is in the top 3 single biggest damage dealers on a Power build along with the 3rd strike of air auto attack, despite only being used in 2 attunement swaps after exhausting my burst. You know what is even crazier? I interrupted Call Lightning 11 times by mistake in that run and it still accounts for nearly 1/8th of the total damage I put into the golem. These are things I could not even fathom without analytics. There is no way for your brain to track all of this stuff as its happening, so you need to see the data. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to see it? Is it fear that you might not like what you see?

    Some people are going to use the information to put other people down, but that same information is also one of the best ways to pull yourself up.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    ARC has done more to protect people from unjust treatment than any amount of carebearing has ever managed to accomplish. The logs are detailed enough to remove most of the silly assumptions and excuses people would make about why things didn't go as planned. Players are no longer able to blame everyone but themselves for their mistakes.
    Not to mention that my personal enjoyment of raids, and Fractals for that matter, has grown quite a bit ever since uploading became a thing. The new ability to review minor details and the many ways to further improve my personal play as well as the synergies of my squad has kept me interested far longer than anyone could have guessed. And I am hardly the only one here.

    Do not mind a more basic ingame DPS meter. Some people are reluctant to download anything 3rd party and all that. Just hope the entire Build Templates debacle does not happen again. I would be rather disappointed if ArcDPS was to be replaced with a more fancy looking, but ultimately far less comprehensive and less useful ingame tool. Not to mention the possibility of it then being place behind a paywall.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    I don't think its possible to correctly evaluate your own performance without it.

    I give you a much simpler and better way to rate your performance:
    Do you have fun performing that way?
    If yes, just continue.
    If not, try something else.

    This is much better than bending yourself according to some arbitrary numbers that lack any kind of personal flavour.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    there is no point discuss is acrdps nice or not. Who want - find and use. We talk about inner way to show current fight dps.

    As for me best way show numbers(0-100) and % near each name on party members window on upper left side on each current fight.
    So now we see class, a little bit lower mastery count, and next row can be % of damage done

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:
    there is no point discuss is acrdps nice or not. Who want - find and use. We talk about inner way to show current fight dps.

    As for me best way show numbers(0-100) and % near each name on party members window on upper left side on each current fight.
    So now we see class, a little bit lower mastery count, and next row can be % of damage done

    But if we get an inner way to see dps, we most likely lose arc dps just like we lost arc templates(which were alot better than these ones that we have.)

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    there is no point discuss is acrdps nice or not. Who want - find and use. We talk about inner way to show current fight dps.

    As for me best way show numbers(0-100) and % near each name on party members window on upper left side on each current fight.
    So now we see class, a little bit lower mastery count, and next row can be % of damage done

    So only show the worst aspect of a dps meter instead of the actually useful information. Got it

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    But if we get an inner way to see dps, we most likely lose arc dps

    it not comparable. In inner tool we see only % of total damage don of current fight, and on arcdps we have powerful tool to analise aand way to improve.

    just like we lost arc templates(which were alot better than these ones that we have.)

    we lot arc-templates only because this is part of marketing. Nothing personal only businesses. The monetize inner dps tool smell fail and another story.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So only show the worst aspect of a dps meter instead of the actually useful information. Got it

    we have 5 members. Start, combat, and we see numbers. I don't worry, if druid do 2% or 5% if see 25might, spirits, ans hp is ok.. I don't worry is chrno do 5% or 7% if see boons .. I start worry if second dps also do 5%.
    We already have perfect analise tool. So there is no point ask that same from anet.

    All that we need - casual number row near mastery on current fight, without any log, history, or etc.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    What you are doing is the exact reason why people object to integrating a dps meter into the game - you are looking at what other people are doing so you can find a reason to bang them if they don't meet your arbitrary standards. Thats the least constructive thing you can do with the data it spits out.

    Forget what other people are doing and look at what you can do better, before you look to others.

    Use it to analyse your own gameplay, which is the greatest benefit of having a personal data collection and logging tool integrated into the game - so everyone has the tools to learn to be a better player in their own time based on real data, not guesses or suspicions.

    The only time I look at other people's data is (a) to figure out why they are doing so much better than me and (b) because they asked me and needed help interpreting their logs. The most useful feature is the event logging and the history.

  • @Besetment.9187 said:
    What you are doing is the exact reason why people object to integrating a dps meter into the game - you are looking at what other people are doing so you can find a reason to bang them if they don't meet your arbitrary standards. Thats the least constructive thing you can do with the data it spits out.

    Forget what other people are doing and look at what you can do better, before you look to others.

    Use it to analyse your own gameplay, which is the greatest benefit of having a personal data collection and logging tool integrated into the game - so everyone has the tools to learn to be a better player in their own time based on real data, not guesses or suspicions.

    The only time I look at other people's data is (a) to figure out why they are doing so much better than me and (b) because they asked me and needed help interpreting their logs. The most useful feature is the event logging and the history.

    100% this.

    I realise I'm in the minority here, but as a Mac user who can't run arcdps, I would love to see a personal in-game dps meter offered. But I think it should be just that, personal. I would love to be able to see my own dps stats as I am playing as a way to improve my own game play. That said, I think something like that would need to be implemented/used carefully so it's not used to bash on other people.

  • WastedYears.8934WastedYears.8934 Member ✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    What you are doing is the exact reason why people object to integrating a dps meter into the game - you are looking at what other people are doing so you can find a reason to bang them if they don't meet your arbitrary standards. Thats the least constructive thing you can do with the data it spits out.

    Forget what other people are doing and look at what you can do better, before you look to others.

    Use it to analyse your own gameplay, which is the greatest benefit of having a personal data collection and logging tool integrated into the game - so everyone has the tools to learn to be a better player in their own time based on real data, not guesses or suspicions.

    The only time I look at other people's data is (a) to figure out why they are doing so much better than me and (b) because they asked me and needed help interpreting their logs. The most useful feature is the event logging and the history.

    Totally agree. Poor randoms will be held in scrutiny, black listed and kicked out on sight if they play poorly. People might even post screenshots just to humiliate one another.

    Of cause there would be benefits such as keeping players in check so they don't slack off. I mean some people actually do eat when playing and you can tell from their drop in dps.

    Then again it wouldn't be a benefit if you can't eat when you play!!!

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @WastedYears.8934 said:
    Of cause there would be benefits such as keeping players in check so they don't slack off.

    I don't even see the problem with slacking and relaxing in a game.
    If people have a problem with that, they take games more serious than is healthy.
    Games are meant to relieve stress and have people to kick back.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @WastedYears.8934 said:
    Of cause there would be benefits such as keeping players in check so they don't slack off.

    I don't even see the problem with slacking and relaxing in a game.
    If people have a problem with that, they take games more serious than is healthy.
    Games are meant to relieve stress and have people to kick back.

    Thank you for the explanation on why you enjoy video games.
    Other people enjoy them for different reasons.

    Saying that someone who enjoys them for different reasons than you is not "healthy" is pretty toxic.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @WastedYears.8934 said:

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    What you are doing is the exact reason why people object to integrating a dps meter into the game - you are looking at what other people are doing so you can find a reason to bang them if they don't meet your arbitrary standards. Thats the least constructive thing you can do with the data it spits out.

    Forget what other people are doing and look at what you can do better, before you look to others.

    Use it to analyse your own gameplay, which is the greatest benefit of having a personal data collection and logging tool integrated into the game - so everyone has the tools to learn to be a better player in their own time based on real data, not guesses or suspicions.

    The only time I look at other people's data is (a) to figure out why they are doing so much better than me and (b) because they asked me and needed help interpreting their logs. The most useful feature is the event logging and the history.

    Totally agree. Poor randoms will be held in scrutiny, black listed and kicked out on sight if they play poorly. People might even post screenshots just to humiliate one another.

    Of cause there would be benefits such as keeping players in check so they don't slack off. I mean some people actually do eat when playing and you can tell from their drop in dps.

    Then again it wouldn't be a benefit if you can't eat when you play!!!

    People can already do this with arcdps and highlight people who are slacking off or performing badly - a simple in game DPS metre also will give an indication if something is up.

    Randoms who are performing very badly may be kicked by someone who is running arc (low DPS or boon outputs) or handling a fight badly for obvious reasons.

    But this also gives an opportunity to fix stuff and help people !

  • @Fueki.4753 said:

    @WastedYears.8934 said:
    Of cause there would be benefits such as keeping players in check so they don't slack off.

    I don't even see the problem with slacking and relaxing in a game.
    If people have a problem with that, they take games more serious than is healthy.
    Games are meant to relieve stress and have people to kick back.

    I got no issue with people relaxing in a game. Fine with players who have lag and not performing well either.

    What I do hate is when people try to leech off the efforts of others intentionally.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    If people have a problem with that, they take games more serious than is healthy.

    Thank you for telling others what is healthy and what is not. After all this is a "play how you want" game right? Why are you telling others how to play it?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Thank you for telling others what is healthy and what is not.

    If people are stressing out over the fact that others play differently, they produce an unnecessary amount of hormones, potentially harming their balance.
    That's objectively not healthy.

    After all this is a "play how you want" game right? Why are you telling others how to play it?

    As long they do not actively try to impact others' ways to play, I've got no problem with players trying as hard as they want themselves.
    If one doesn't like how their group plays, they should just leave and make a note (whether it's mental or written out) to not play with those people again. This goes for players of both sides of the argument.

    "Keeping players in check" (as WastedYears.8934 called it) is not something that should be done, unless said players expressively agreed to it.
    It'll merely cause unnecessary stress for both the person demanding better performance from others and people that refuse complying to such (potentially continuous) demands.

    Arenanet is better of not forcing such a tool of the entirety of the players base.
    It'd just serve to widen the hostility between the majority and the top end even more.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    What you are doing is the exact reason why people object to integrating a dps meter into the game - you are looking at what other people are doing so you can find a reason to bang them if they don't meet your arbitrary standards.

    People already will be kicked from normal party. If not - this is only mean that party is not good.
    The tools can only give some understanding for kicked person. Because now we currently do silent kick without any notes. Some persons write "why? I press buttons" and more easy block them than explain.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hawkeye.5421 said:
    Totally agree. Poor randoms will be held in scrutiny, black listed and kicked out on sight if they play poorly.

    this is exist already 4 years. Welcome.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    If people are stressing out over the fact that others play differently

    In other words what you are doing is unhealthy since you are the one stressing out over others playing differently here.

    As long they do not actively try to impact others' ways to play, I've got no problem with players trying as hard as they want themselves.

    Players that don't "try hard" are also actively impacting on how others around them play. As long as those that don't want to "try hard" stay away of most organized groups that have players who want to "try hard" then there is no problem.

    "Keeping players in check" (as WastedYears.8934 called it) is not something that should be done, unless they expressively agreed to it.

    They agree by joining a group with other players, if they don't want to be checked they should play solo, or only join like minded individuals. In a group setting the performance of an individual heavily impacts on the group as well. It is after all a group activity. Picking up the slack and covering for under-performing players is also not something that should be done, unless the group (or the group creator) expressively says so

    It'll merely cause unnecessary stress for both the person demanding better performance from others and people that refuse complying to such (potentially continuous) demands.

    That depends on the group and in most cases group requirements are set beforehand. There is no stress involved if players show the proper respect

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Players that don't "try hard" are also actively impacting on how others around them play. As long as those that don't want to "try hard" stay away of most organized groups that have players who want to "try hard" then there is no problem.

    The only contents that require significant effort are raids, T3+T4 (and CM) fractals, as well as the Boneskinner Strike Mission.
    Those that want specific builds for their group should write in in their LFG.
    It might even be more effective, if they play one these builds themselves.
    If there were no requirements, there is no room to complain.

    That depends on the group and in most cases group requirements are set beforehand. There is no stress involved if players show the proper respect

    Most groups I see don't list any requirements. I don't list any requirements either, yet I keep getting elitists complaining about others.
    If there are no requirements, the only way to show proper respect is to not complain about others' performance.
    The absence of an description and of requirements should be equal to be absence of expectations.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The only contents that require significant effort are raids, T3+T4 (and CM) fractals, as well as the Boneskinner Strike Mission.
    Those that want specific builds for their group should write in in their LFG.
    It might even be more effective, if they play one these builds themselves.

    If there are no requirements but "T4 run" then it means it's a T4 run, not a T4 let's "goof off" or a "training" run. If a run is to be anything other than a successful run, then it will have special notes on the LFG. IF there is nothing special about it, it assumes knowledge of the content in question and expects a "good/smooth" run.

    Most groups I see don't list any requirements. I don't list any requirements either, yet I keep getting elitists complaining about others.

    You should list "casual run", "everyone welcome run" or something else to differentiate your group from a "let's do T4 run". A group without requirements does have expectations.

    The absence of an description and of requirements should be equal to be absence of expectations.

    Again, a group without requirements does have expectations, the expectation when you ask for a T4 Fractal run is to have a group that will complete a T4 Fractal run and in no way or form will teach a T4 Fractal run. If I join a group for T4 Fractal run I expect to finish the T4 run, not wipe on the first room for ages. Saying that having nothing in the description means there are no expectations is wrong and maybe if there are enough players like you, the reason we have all the problems with grouping in this game. If I see a listing "T4 FC", I expect to clear all T4s that day, not to try hard with 4 bear-bow Rangers showing their synced Rapid Fire.

    If there were no requirements, there is no room to complain.
    If there are no requirements, the only way to show proper respect is to not complain about others' performance.

    Wrong again. Even the most "casual" and "Everyone welcome" groups should have their limits
    You can read an example given here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1250736/#Comment_1250736
    A simple summary: Thief joins for a Matthias run, stays on top of him auto-attacking, gets poison, never goes to cleanse, causes wipe.

    Let's have a few more:
    I was in a Crucible of Eternity group with a Mesmer that had Twilight. He was very fond of Twilight and wanted to show it off. But he was staying at range, circling around, causing extra red rings to appear (if you've fought Subject Alpha you know what I mean). The person was having their fun, but was griefing everyone else, why should the team put up with it?

    The next one is from Slothasor. A random joins and dies on the first pull. We lol, we gg and wait for him to release because he was taking his sweet time. Try number two, he dies on the first pull again. We continue on the fight, but someone puts a poison in the middle, we know it's hard to finish the fight and since it's early we /gg again. Takes him some time to release again. We reach the third try when he dies one more time on the first pull. We continue, reach about the mid point of the fight and joke about a bit, I ask him if he is afk. No response. Eventually I kicked him.

    Your idea that groups without requirements should take abuse and grief is beyond words. Your idea that someone needs permission to judge another player is also ridiculous. When someone's "fun", interfere's with my "fun" then I will respond to it, regardless if the group is "Casual" or "Everyone welcome" or it has no requirements. If you don't like to be judged, then don't offer any excuses for it.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    If there are no requirements but "T4 run" then it means it's a T4 run,
    A simple summary: Thief joins for a Matthias run, stays on top of him auto-attacking, gets poison, never goes to cleanse, causes wipe.
    The next one is from Slothasor.

    Those are raids and a T4 fractal, which I specifically listed as part of the contents that need significant effort.

    I was in a Crucible of Eternity group with a Mesmer that had Twilight. He was very fond of Twilight and wanted to show it off. But he was staying at range, circling around, causing extra red rings to appear (if you've fought Subject Alpha you know what I mean). The person was having their fun, but was griefing everyone else, why should the team put up with it?

    Knowing how an encounter works is an entirely different beast from playing the way one wants.
    Likewise, explaining strategies and abilities of encounters is entirely different from telling someone to abandon their playstyle in favour of some on-paper optimal build.
    Did your group explain to that Mesmer how Alpha works?
    If they were just grieving for the sake of grieving or otherwise refusing to try and deal with the encounters' mechanics, kicking them is always an option.
    There is no need for a DPS meter (which this thread is about) anywhere in this matter.
    That aside, I've seen more success on Alpha with ranged people than with people trying to stack.

    A random joins and dies on the first pull. We lol, we gg and wait for him to release because he was taking his sweet time. Try number two, he dies on the first pull again. We continue on the fight, but someone puts a poison in the middle, we know it's hard to finish the fight and since it's early we /gg again. Takes him some time to release again. We reach the third try when he dies one more time on the first pull. We continue, reach about the mid point of the fight and joke about a bit, I ask him if he is afk. No response. Eventually I kicked him.

    This sounds like it might have been a raid boss which, again, is content that I agree with requiring effort.
    For these cases, again, we already have the options to leave groups and kick players.
    Anti-social behaviour like abusing the system and grieving have nothing to do with whether someone is playing casually or putting in a lot of effort.

    Your idea that groups without requirements should take abuse and grief is beyond words.

    I disagree with such disrespectful behaviour as much as I disagree with people demanding optimal builds for content that doesn't require them.

    My points with the absence of requirements was referring to builds people use in content, not to general misbehaviour.
    For example, if you want only power builds, you should put it in the description.
    But if you didn't put it in, despite wanting it, you shouldn't complain about the condition Berserker that (hypothetically) joins.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Those are raids and a T4 fractal, which I specifically listed as part of the contents that need significant effort.

    Does it matter if it requires significant effort or not? The idea is the same whether you are running Ascalonian Catacombs or Xera, there is some part of the content that does require more attention.

    Did your group explain to that Mesmer how Alpha works?

    Yes. The answer was "he is too ugly for me to get closer lol". Exact words

    As mentioned above, those cases are not related to DPS meters and damage numbers.

    You comment was:

    I don't even see the problem with slacking and relaxing in a game.
    If people have a problem with that, they take games more serious than is healthy.
    Games are meant to relieve stress and have people to kick back.

    You made a blanket statement, you saw no problem with someone slacking (in all my examples those responsible were actually slacking), and you said that players that have problem with slackers and take the game more serious are unhealthy. If your entire statement was in regards only to dps meters and damage numbers then it should've been phrased in a way to support that. Nothing is black and white

    Same thing with these, arguments as written:

    If there were no requirements, there is no room to complain.
    The absence of an description and of requirements should be equal to be absence of expectations.
    "Keeping players in check" (as WastedYears.8934 called it) is not something that should be done, unless said players expressively agreed to it.

    You can complain and act in a group without requirements, a group without description does have expectations, and players should be kept in check regardless if they agree to it or not. In all types of groups. What is debatable is the method of complaining, the extent of the expectations, and how much "in check" players should be. That would certainly depend on the group, how it was formed (LFG listing), the leader, and many other parameters.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    I don't think we'll agree on much.

    I have no love for DPS meters, nor for the people that judge others purely based on the numbers said meters are spitting out.
    I'll never have that kind of love.
    As long as people try to do the mechanics and don't actively try to ruin runs (like the Mesmer and the random you mentioned), I don't mind them.
    I'll always mind people who complain about non-optimal builds in my groups and squads that I opened.
    For various reasons I will never play optimally on paper and I will never expect others to do so.

    To me, an optimal run is when it has an enjoyable atmosphere (or at least didn't complain), even if I get only one chest from the Icebrood Construct (and yes, that really happened sometimes).

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    That aside, I've seen more success on Alpha with ranged people than with people trying to stack.

    Wait what? Every since pre hot i havent seen a single ranged group that wasn't a full fiesta. It usually dies in 1sec nowadays to melee players. That sentence just proofs that you probably have no idea how the combat works at all and are probably only playing open world which is fine. but please start using arc yourself and you will notice that even in your "all welcome" or open world a few players carry extremely hard. This only works if the content allows for a high percentage of dead weight.

    On topic: A damage meter that shows only dps is almost as useful as the bam addon in wow that posted highest crits in chat. The more details the better. Thats the only way to use it to compare different builds/rotations otherwise its really hard to pinpoint issues.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    That aside, I've seen more success on Alpha with ranged people than with people trying to stack.

    Every since pre hot i havent seen a single ranged group that wasn't a full fiesta.

    I guess you simply had less luck with the ranged people in CoE.

    probably only playing open world

    Currently I mostly do Story (when the Story updates), "exploration", a bit of WvW and one PvP match a day.
    Back when I played a lot more GW2, I did lots of dungeons, and fractals.
    I did no small amount of Strike Missions for the five weapon collections of the last update either.

    That sentence just proofs that you probably have no idea how the combat works at all

    Exactly what about that sentence proofs anything about my familiarity with the combat system?
    The fact that the average of ranged people I did CoE with were better at dodging Alpha than the average of melee people?
    I think I'm sufficiently familiar with the combat to be successful in most of the game's content.

    but please start using arc yourself and you will notice that even in your "all welcome" or open world a few players carry extremely hard. This only works if the content allows for a high percentage of dead weight.

    If you ever see my groups and squads, please don't join.
    I'd rather not have such a difference in attitudes.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I have no love for DPS meters, nor for the people that judge others purely based on the numbers said meters are spitting out.

    I never said anything about judging others purely based on numbers shown on dps meters, not sure what kind of narrative change you want to do here.

    As long as people try to do the mechanics and don't actively try to ruin runs (like the Mesmer and the random you mentioned), I don't mind them.

    Since you say "as long as", it means there is room for complaining, group expectations and a valid need to keep others in check. Which your absolute statements did not account for.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I never said anything about judging others purely based on numbers shown on dps meters

    As long as DPS Meters (which this thread is about) exist, so will people doing so. That wasn't targetted at you.

    Since you say "as long as", it means there is room for complaining, group expectations and a valid need to keep others in check. Which your absolute statements did not account for.

    My "absolute statement", was only meant regarding complaints about builds, not about behaviour that actively disrupts group play.
    If someone is ignoring mechanics on purpose or doing other disruptive staff (like mowing people down with WoJ chains on purpose), complains are valid.

    not sure what kind of narrative change you want to do here.

    I was actually trying to end the discussion, as I can't see us two meeting on the same side of the coin and all arguments feel exhausted to me.