Preface

So I've been thinking about new elite specializations and had a real hard time when putting my finger on what I – personally – would find best for the Engineer. It's less the theme I'm having trouble with. I'd enjoy either something chemical, weather or terraforming related or even sound related and there have been several concepts floating around I found interesting. But I got really stuck on the weapon choices. It drove me crazy. :s Therefore: Let's do some theorycrafting and clean up core Engineer utilities!

This is just some fun "what if", no full rework or suggestion how to "fix" the class.

 

Overall approach

As explained above, I didn't really know what I'd prefer for the next x-pac (assuming it might be the last elite spec added,). We don't have a pure support weapon. But we also don't have a melee condition weapon. I'd love a Staff or Scepter, but I'd also like Maces. Well... why not have both? <3

Low hanging fruits: We already kinda got Mace in form of the Toolkit. It has to go. What new Kit to add? I say: none! Let's please my OCD and clean up Engineer utility skills and the number of skills per group. But more about that later.

 

Implementing a new core weapon

• First step: Remove Toolkit
• Second step: Add Mace MH als core Engineer Weapon choice
• Third step: Rework Power Wrench to affect Mace

But what should Mace do? At first I thought about a pure power weapon. However, I did want to keep the identity and the flavor of Toolkit at least somewhat intakt. Therefore, I ended up with an hybrid weapon that borrows some fire/explosions from the original Hammer concept for Scrapper.

• 1.1: Hit up to 3 foes, damage and 1 Bleed
• 1.2: Hit up to 3 foes, damage and 1 Bleed
• 1.3: Hit up to 5 foes, damage 2 stacks of Vulnerability, Explosion
• 2: Fiery Blow, Smash the ground, burning up to 5 nearby foes for a short time, blast finisher
• 3: Magnetize, works like former Magnet. Range lowered to 900 for the pull. Causes Confusion to up to 3 nearby enemies of your target when interrupting it with your pull.

Making the third AA-hit an Explosion will create nice synergies but won't be too easily exploitable because you have to get off your chain first. Mace – in contrast to Sword – would be more about having your enemies close or keeping them close rather than mobility. It should pair well with both, OH Pistol and Shield.

 

Re-organizing Engineer core Utilities

As mentioned above, I won't be adding a new Kit as replacement. Instead, I will thin out the existing Utility groups and add a completely new one. You know... like it is for any other class (maybe except Rev)? I don't know how to make fancy tooltips, so please bare with me.

 

Which skill to drop per group?

Click for a short explanation which skill I'd get rid off.

Elixirs**Elixir B**: While the the Throw Elixir B isn't too bad (Stability) it got quite some overlap with other Elixirs (Boons) and simply didn't age well. It will be scrapped. Stability will be added later.

Gadgets**Throw Mine** and **Slick Shoes**: Throw Mine will be reappear later. Slick Shoes becomes the new Toolbelt skill of Rocket Shoes. It also becomes a Stunbreaker. Since traited Rocket Boots still provide Superspeed, I don't see a need to include it anywhere else. NEW: **Gear Shield** becomes a Gadget. Its Toolbelt skill is "Throw Gear Shield" with the same functionality as "Throw Wrench". Traited Gear Shield grants Barrier after channeling.

Turrets**Flame Turret**: While turrets are a mess in general, we won't be focussing on this today. Flame Turret is removed.

 

 

Kit reworks

While not the focus of this thread, I reworked and reshuffled a view skills, mainly because I wanted to include lost Utility skills within kits.

FlamethrowerI'm not going to argue about the ups and downs of the AA. However, I do believe that some hits should be shaved of and a more frequent Burning application is needed. In this rework, the Kit is going to remain a bruisery hybrid kit.* 3.: Air Blast no longer burns but also Blinds.* 4.: "Napalm" is reworked to act similar to Searing Fissure (Rev). Burning duration is nerfed, but Burning applied to foes within the field is heavily increased. Like... real Napalm!* 5.: Smoke Vent becomes Smoke Screen (former Flame Turret), but no longer blinds. Instead, it provides projectile protection.* Toolbelt: Throw Napalm (former Flame Turret) becomes the new Toolbelt skill for Flamethrower. Probably should be renamed?

Grenade KitOverall using the Kit is extremly boring. I want to add more functionality and interaction to the respective skills without causing power creep. Grenades are supposed to become the main condition kit (without Burning). * 1.: Grenade: Deals Bleed by default, power damage nerfed* 2.: Freeze Grenade: Deals additional Bleeds if a certain Vulnerability threshold is met. Power damage nerfed. CD decreased slightly.* 3.: Poison Grenade: Poison stacks reduced by 1, duration slightly nerfed, power damage nerfed. CD decreased slightly.* 4.: Shrapnel Grenade: Throw grenades in a fan (low to medium range, 450-600), Bleed on impact. Leave behind Shrapnels that Bleed and Cripple and are unblockable ("reintroduction" of Box of Nails).* 5.: Flash Grenade: Trigger a flashbang, dazing nearby foes. Also deals Confusion damage if you interrupt an enemy with this skill. Confusion damage is moved here from the Bomb Kit which will become power focussed.

Bomb KitSame as Grenade Kit, pretty dull to use. I also want to make it a bit more versatile. It loses its damaging conditions and supposed to become the main power kit.* 1.: Bomb: No change* 2.: Mine Field: Plant 5 mines around yourself (former Mine Toolbelt skill)* 3.: Magnetic Bomb replaces Concussion Bomb: Just like the effect of Streamlined Kits, but affects 5 people. Former Magnetic Bomb becomes "Lesser Magnetic Bomb".* 4./5.: Smoke and Glue Bomb: No change in functionality.* Toolbelt: Big Ol' Bomb is removed and replaced by "Throw Mine". The detonation no longer knocksback but launches instead.

 

 

The new Utility group: Coatings

I wanted a Utility group that is somewhat chemical related but doesn't overlap with Elixirs too much. Additionally, I wanted it to be potentially associated with Firearms since we don't have any Utility besides Flamethrower linked to this traitline. So the idea is having supportive Venom-like Utilities with self-only Ammo-enhancements as Toolbelt skills - basically inverse Elixirs (selfish Utility, group Toolbelt). The skill names are just descriptive.

Solidifying Coating

• Grant yourself and nearby allies 3 stacks of Stability. Stunbreaker.
• Toolbelt: Gravity Ammo – Your next attack makes your enemy float for 2s.

Protective Coating

• Grant yourself and nearby allies Protection and Barrier for a short period of time.
• Toolbelt: Corrosive Ammo – Your next 2 attacks apply Weakness

Reflective Coating

• Grant yourself and nearby allies Reflection for 2s.
• Toolbelt: Penetrating Ammo – Your next 5 attacks are unblockable and apply Vulnerability.

Cooling Coating

• You and nearby allies become immune to conditions for 2s. Cures Burning and grants Regeneration.
• Toolbelt: Incendiary Ammo – Your next 3 attacks apply Burning

Preferably, Ammos can't be combined and will cancel each other out - but I'm not sure if this is realistic from a programming point of view. A trait would be placed in Firearms. It could, for example, Reduce the CD of the utilities and increase the Ammo-stacks. Or if it was on Incendiary Powder, add Burning to all Ammos instead Burning on crit? Maybe you got other ideas?

 

Did you make it until here? Great!

What are your thoughts? Would you like such a rework and reorganization of skills? Do you like the effects and the mechanics of Coatings? Do you think such a clean up and a new baseline weapon could aid Engineers? Maybe you would have picked a totally different weapon to be added?

I don't think adding a new weapon needs so much rework to the entire core profession, but Engineer definitely needs one more main hand weapon and mace simply fits best.That said, I absolutely disagree with reducing power damage in the 'nades.I need that 'nade power for whenever my Engi needs to get wet.

If there is an Elixir to get rid of, it's Elixir S.

Also, the fact that you add a new weapon and an entire utility category makes this feel more like an elite-spec idea than an addition to the core class.

You got some interesting ideas, but I got some comments.

Why did you remove 2 gadget skills? In total, your changes here suggest to remove 5 utility skills from the engineer (Tool Kit, Elixir B, Slick Shoes, Throw Mine, Flame Turret), while just adding 4 new utility skills (coatings) to replace them. So basically, the idea is that we trade 1 utility skill for 1 new weapon with the mace?Personally, I would not want that. I would like to unify engineer with the rest of the classes by giving up 1 utility skill of each type and giving us a new utility category, giving us 5 different utility types with 4 skills each (like the other classes), instead of 4 types with 5 skills each.

My personal picks to replace: Elixir R, Tool Kit, Slick Shoes, and Net Turret (but as I mentioned in my own thread, I would also rework the other turrets, some with bigger thematical changes). I am not sure if I would want the new utility skills to be coatings, tho. I can see where you are coming from, with tying this utility type to the firearms trait line, but the effects you described in general here are not really convincing me.

I generally like the idea to have a skill type that functions like Venoms, but I would make them more like Venoms from thieves. Meaning that they should have effects which apply on hitting the enemy while having a venom on you.Another skill type I would enjoy on the engineer would be preparations, which could also have the chemical feeling.

In general, I like your approach to change Grenade Kit to the main condition kit, while making Bomb Kit power focused. Both kits are a weird mix of condition damage and power damage, changing that could benefit the class.I think we could go a bit further with the changes here, tho.

For Grenade Kit: One problem of the Grenade Kit is that it is too similar to the Mortar Kit, both having poison, blind, chill. Also you didn't address the toolbelt skill, which is still one of the hardest hitting power skills in engineer's arsenal.Skill 1: Grenade: Applying bleed by default, agreed.Skill 2: Shrapnel Grenade: Applying torment instead of bleed now. It makes sense thematically, since shrapnel will make your every move hurt like hell.Skill 3: Poison Grenade: Still applying poison.Skill 4: Sticky Grenade: Applying slow.Skill 5: Concussion Grenade: Applying daze and applying confusion if interrupting the enemy.Toolbelt: Grenade Barrage stays a bursty spell with high strike damage. But I think an interesting change would be to let it scale with condition damage instead of power, while still dealing strike damage. It would be an unique niche and give the condition playstyle a great burst spell.

For Bomb Kit: I won't like to remove the Throw Mine skill, I personally like it. So I would also make other changes for the Bomb Kit, but still aim to make it a power focused kit.Skill 1: Bomb: No changes.Skill 2: Fire Bomb: Instead of applying burning, it is a fire combo field that deals ticking power damage in it's radius. If elementalist can get fire based attacks without burning, why not the engineer?Skill 3: Splitter Bomb: Deal damage in the radius. If it hits an enemy, it splits up into 3 smaller bombs, exploding again. If these hit an enemy, they also split up into 3 smaller bombs (this is the maximum).Skill 4: Smoke Bomb: No changes.Skill 5: Time Bomb: The engineer plants a bomb that will charge up over time. It flips over to "Detonate Time Bomb", the damage it deals is scaling with the time you let it charge up (capping at a maximum, of course). Blast finisher.Toolbelt: No changes.

Other changes:In general, I think turrets need a major rework. This skill type is underperforming in every game mode and could use some changes. I made an own thread about ideas here.Additionally, Elixir X should get reworked. The random transformation is a relic from times in which elixirs used to have random effects, but they changed them to be more reliable. I would like to see Elixir X getting an own unique transformation instead of copying one of two transformations from other classes. Preferably you would turn into a big ooze, with synergy with the alchemy trait line.

MaceI would like to see the mace added to the core engineer, there are many mace skins which would be awesome on my engineer and yet we can't use them...

Why add new skill type, when we have 2 unused, underpowered forgotten types, aka gadgets and turrets? IMO turrets will be removed and we'll get some completely new skill type, same treatment as traps got on thief.

As for mace I'm all in for one-handed meele weapon on engi, it'd increase profession's build variety by an order of magnitude. Make it a cc/damage, and rework wrench to offer some defensive stuff like evades. Elixirs is the only good skill type with a decent trait to buff it, please don't touch them.

@Samug.6512 said:Why add new skill type, when we have 2 unused, underpowered forgotten types, aka gadgets and turrets? IMO turrets will be removed and we'll get some completely new skill type, same treatment as traps got on thief.

As for mace I'm all in for one-handed meele weapon on engi, it'd increase profession's build variety by an order of magnitude. Make it a cc/damage, and rework wrench to offer some defensive stuff like evades. Elixirs is the only good skill type with a decent trait to buff it, please don't touch them.

Turrets should get reworked into something useful instead of getting completely removed...Turrets are awesome thematically, they are just implemented poorly in this game.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Samug.6512 said:Why add new skill type, when we have 2 unused, underpowered forgotten types, aka gadgets and turrets? IMO turrets will be removed and we'll get some completely new skill type, same treatment as traps got on thief.

As for mace I'm all in for one-handed meele weapon on engi, it'd increase profession's build variety by an order of magnitude. Make it a cc/damage, and rework wrench to offer some defensive stuff like evades. Elixirs is the only good skill type with a decent trait to buff it, please don't touch them.

Well if you look at thief, all they did is re-implement traps that are basically player-controlled, which is very smart as it allows them to do stuff like portal (and they have cool vfx too). I'd except turrets to get a similar treatment, so we were given something that is more player controlled and gives control over an area.

Or at least anything useful...

Sorry, long work-week. :)

@Fueki.4753 said:I don't think adding a new weapon needs so much rework [...]That said, I absolutely disagree with reducing power damage in the 'nades.[...]If there is an Elixir to get rid of, it's Elixir S.[...]Also, the fact that you add a new weapon and an entire utility category makes this feel more like an elite-spec idea than an addition to the core class.

I thought I did explain my train of thoughts sufficiently. :s

Yes, if you just want to add a weapon, you could just do that. However, when it comes to class design, this might not be the best way to go. As I said, I wanted to rework Tool Kit to be the new MH weapon. Which, of course, would have consequences for Utilities as well. Considering that Engineer is the only class with 5 Utility skills per group, but one less Utility group, I decided to hit two birds with one stone.

I can see how Elixir S is situational, but it got way more flavor than just some Boons from Elixir B.

@Kodama.6453 said:Why did you remove 2 gadget skills? In total, your changes here suggest to remove 5 utility skills from the engineer (Tool Kit, Elixir B, Slick Shoes, Throw Mine, Flame Turret), while just adding 4 new utility skills (coatings) to replace them. So basically, the idea is that we trade 1 utility skill for 1 new weapon with the mace?Personally, I would not want that. I would like to unify engineer with the rest of the classes by giving up 1 utility skill of each type and giving us a new utility category, giving us 5 different utility types with 4 skills each (like the other classes), instead of 4 types with 5 skills each.

I only virtually removed those Gadgets. Slick Shoes got merged with Rocket Boots. Throw Mine got incorporated into the Bomb Kit. I also added a new Gadget - Gear Shield - because I removed Toolkit but find this skill to be very useful for Engineers. So I'd rather not remove it completely. I tried not to take away too much from existing builds with this rework.

So we'd basically trade Toolkit for Mace, plus 1 Utility per Group while mostly incorporating the scrapped skills into existing ones.

@Kodama.6453 said:My personal picks to replace: Elixir R, Tool Kit, Slick Shoes, and Net Turret (but as I mentioned in my own thread, I would also rework the other turrets, some with bigger thematical changes).

As I said regarding Elixir S just above, Elixir R might be situational but offers an effect Engineers don't have elsewhere. I'd rather keep it. Unless we'd incorporate it into Turrets somehow? But I didn't want to touch Turrets. I'm not a big fan of AI in GW2 so I'll probably leave this to other people. ;)

@Kodama.6453 said:I am not sure if I would want the new utility skills to be coatings, tho. I can see where you are coming from, with tying this utility type to the firearms trait line, but the effects you described in general here are not really convincing me. I generally like the idea to have a skill type that functions like Venoms, but I would make them more like Venoms from thieves. Meaning that they should have effects which apply on hitting the enemy while having a venom on you.Another skill type I would enjoy on the engineer would be preparations, which could also have the chemical feeling.

What don't you like about the effects? Too weak? Too situational? Or just theme-wise?The "Venom" part would be on the Toolbelt skills rather than the Utility skills. It just felt more appropriate since we already got Incendiary Ammo.

I also thought about Preparations. But I'd rather see them on a whole new e-spec. I just couldn't fit them in on base Engineer.

@Kodama.6453 said:For Grenade Kit: One problem of the Grenade Kit is that it is too similar to the Mortar Kit, both having poison, blind, chill. Also you didn't address the toolbelt skill, which is still one of the hardest hitting power skills in engineer's arsenal.Skill 1: Grenade: Applying bleed by default, agreed.Skill 2: Shrapnel Grenade: Applying torment instead of bleed now. It makes sense thematically, since shrapnel will make your every move hurt like hell.Skill 3: Poison Grenade: Still applying poison.Skill 4: Sticky Grenade: Applying slow.Skill 5: Concussion Grenade: Applying daze and applying confusion if interrupting the enemy.Toolbelt: Grenade Barrage stays a bursty spell with high strike damage. But I think an interesting change would be to let it scale with condition damage instead of power, while still dealing strike damage. It would be an unique niche and give the condition playstyle a great burst spell.

I can get behind Slow instead of Chill. I'm not sure about Torment, to be honest. I feel like ANet paddled back on how they spread Conditions across classes. For example, they basically removed Confusion from Warrior and Revenant. Considering that Engineers already got access to a wide array of conditions, I'd rather see more Torment on Thieves. I think Grenades are fine without Torment.

Regarding Grenade Barrage: I got to admit, I simply forgot reworking it, haha. If scaling it by condition damage is too difficult, they could just decrease the power damage but make it apply a huge stack of conditions with a very short duration. It's just a workaround but will basically result in the same output.

@Kodama.6453 said:For Bomb Kit: I won't like to remove the Throw Mine skill, I personally like it. So I would also make other changes for the Bomb Kit, but still aim to make it a power focused kit.Skill 1: Bomb: No changes.Skill 2: Fire Bomb: Instead of applying burning, it is a fire combo field that deals ticking power damage in it's radius. If elementalist can get fire based attacks without burning, why not the engineer?Skill 3: Splitter Bomb: Deal damage in the radius. If it hits an enemy, it splits up into 3 smaller bombs, exploding again. If these hit an enemy, they also split up into 3 smaller bombs (this is the maximum).Skill 4: Smoke Bomb: No changes.Skill 5: Time Bomb: The engineer plants a bomb that will charge up over time. It flips over to "Detonate Time Bomb", the damage it deals is scaling with the time you let it charge up (capping at a maximum, of course). Blast finisher.Toolbelt: No changes.

Well... I didn't really remove Throw Mine, did I? ;) If you liked it before, you would just pic Bomb Kit now. Your Splitter Bomb isn't too different from Mine Field.

A pulsing Fire field would work and yes, Elementalists got plenty of it. But when it comes to consistency in gameplay, I personally find it to not be the best option.

@Kodama.6453 said:Other changes:In general, I think turrets need a major rework. This skill type is underperforming in every game mode and could use some changes. I made an own thread about ideas here.Additionally, Elixir X should get reworked. The random transformation is a relic from times in which elixirs used to have random effects, but they changed them to be more reliable. I would like to see Elixir X getting an own unique transformation instead of copying one of two transformations from other classes. Preferably you would turn into a big ooze, with synergy with the alchemy trait line.

If read this idea somewhere else. Not sure if it was you or a different player. But I LOVE the idea of becoming an Ooze. It is so flavorful for Engineer! And while we're at it, Throw Elixir X could be reworked as well. <3 <3 <3

@Kodama.6453 said:MaceI would like to see the mace added to the core engineer, there are many mace skins which would be awesome on my engineer and yet we can't use them...

Oh yes... so many...

@"Xaylin.1860" said:

GadgetsI gotta admit, I overlooked the part that you added gear shield as a gadget. Not sure what to think of it, I kinda feel like the skill could have problems to compete for a utility slot with just that effect.

Also having a utility slot that "just" blocks for 2 seconds, while requiring channeling and therefore forbid you to perform other actions, seems kinda lame. It was fine as a part of a big package, being the tool kit, but as a stand alone skill, I think this might feel unsatisfying.Still would prefer to keep throw mine as an own utility skill instead of making it part of the bomb kit and also would like to keep big ol' bomb....

ElixirsI can see what you mean that elixir r provides something the engineer otherwise doesn't have access to. But elixir b has always been a staple in many engineer builds, I don't really understand why you think it didn't age well. Elixir s might be another candidate to remove instead here.

CoatingMy problem with the coatings you presented here is that they seem not really thematically fitting.With the name "coating" and your idea that they are supposed to represent the firearms aspect of engineers, they should work similar to venoms by enhancing your next attacks (and these of allies).

I see that you implemented that aspect in their toolbelt skills and that is fine, but the actual utility skills seem kinda weird here. They work more like stances than how I would envision coating to work. You already mentioned that they are mechanical counterpart for elixirs, by being selfish on the toolbelt and provide group buffs on the utility skill. But elixirs still both share the same effect, they are buffing the user. So why not go the full way and also make coating buff the next outgoing attacks of all allies and having a stronger effect on the toolbelt, limited to the engineer.

Can agree that preparations should probably be a thing for an elite spec.

Grenade KitFair enough, could be that Anet doesn't want engineers to have torment. Would still try to replace the freeze grenades with something else, tho. Like I said, one problem of the kit is the overlap with the mortar kit. It already provides chill, even with an ice field, so I think we don't need chill on grenades, too.

Bomb KitYeah, thinking about it, the splitter bomb would really be too close to the mine field. Maybe we can come up with something else here. But throw mine, in my opinion, should stay an own skill. It would also feel kinda weird for me that the entire kit is based on bombs and then there is the mine field standing out, would be strange.Also big ol' bomb is one of our hard hitters for PvE, don't want to lose it.

Elixir XYes, I made the thread asking for this rework a few weeks ago, haha.Still hope that we can get a proper own transformation at some point in the future.

what i would want to have is a new kit. a rifle themed kit with cc that helps keep an enemy away and machingun style auto attack.thematicaly more like a scrape rifle with tons of utility attached to i; a bit like one of those fallout weapons .and lets put a recharge mechanic to it.

each ability from 1 to 4 cost different amount of ammo. the 5th ability is the recharge ability.15 ammo max.

1/ continuous firefire continuously bullets like a slow but powerfull machingun. apply one stack of vulnerability per hit.bullets can perfore.cost 1 ammo per shot.have a slow wind up time before the first shot.

2/sonic wavesfire continuous sonic blast in front of you in a cone. apply one stack of confusion and slow per wave.if the target is close to you it also push him slightly away.cost 5 ammo per shot.

3/ shock dartfire a single dart on your target. if it lands it gives you the ability to daze the target whenever you want if you are not too far away from it.the dart stay up for few seconds on the target. if the dart isn't manually detonated it will stun the target instead after the timer runs out but for less longer than the daze.cost 10 ammo per shot. previous dart need to be detonated before this can be used again.

4/ explosive shotfire explosive bullet that can hit multiple enemies. apply one stack of bleeding per hit. (explosive type)cost 3 ammo per shot.

5/ rechargerecharge your gun. grant swiftness. has a longer colldown than the other abilities but cooldown refresh upon using all ammo.you rechargez faster under celerity.

belt abilitythrow a little device on the floor.it wil first use one sonic wave around it, then a few explosive shots toward your actual target. then finish with several continuous fire shots. then self destruct and daze any enemy close to it.

@Kodama.6453 said:Also having a utility slot that "just" blocks for 2 seconds, while requiring channeling and therefore forbid you to perform other actions, seems kinda lame.Yes, it wouldn't be too exciting but it would add defense to Gadgets. It still is one of the best block skills Engineers have. Maybe the CD would have to be lowered if it was a stand alone skill. But when, for example, running P/P it could still be a very appealing skill. Of course, it wouldn't so much if you ran Shield. But thats fine, isn't it?

@Kodama.6453 said:ElixirsI can see what you mean that elixir r provides something the engineer otherwise doesn't have access to. But elixir b has always been a staple in many engineer builds, I don't really understand why you think it didn't age well. Elixir s might be another candidate to remove instead here.What do you use Elixir B for, though? I can see the usefulness of the Toolbelt skill but the Utility itself is very boring and hardly worthit?

@Kodama.6453 said:CoatingMy problem with the coatings you presented here is that they seem not really thematically fitting.With the name "coating" and your idea that they are supposed to represent the firearms aspect of engineers, they should work similar to venoms by enhancing your next attacks (and these of allies).

I see that you implemented that aspect in their toolbelt skills and that is fine, but the actual utility skills seem kinda weird here. [...]

Mhh... maybe that's just me because of Incendiary Ammo. You could easily switch Toolbelts and Utility skills if people found it too weird?

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:[...]

I like the flavor. But what would it exactly add to Engineer and how would you incorporate it into the class? It sounds cool. But that's about it?