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I'm sorry but how is this acceptable?


Shaogin.2679

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https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Why are Necromancers still getting the shaft when it comes to PvE content after all this time? Our benchmarks are down there with Banner Warriors. A support build has higher benchmarks than a Necromancer, and we're the only class in this situation. It's been going on long enough that there is no way the Devs are oblivious to this. Poor Necromancers are so used to this treatment that they have just given up and consider it the norm (or at least it seems that way since no one seems to ever push the issue). It is not like our dps is low because we provide amazing group utility. The only reason I can begin to fathom is that the Devs think that shit dps is a decent trade-off for a bit more sustain. If this was the case though, why not design Necromancers in a way that gave us the option to choose either more damage or more sustain. That is how other classes work. And honestly, I have a much easier time mitigating damage on a Holosmith than I do on Reaper, and Holosmith damage rocks. Say what you will, troll all you want, but this is just sad and ridiculous.

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Somebody has to be at the bottom. Last and 4th from last with those numbers isn't even bad, at all. These benchmarks are extremely optimized too, so looking at them in a vacuum like this isn't useful at all. In my raid group I consistently DPS top 3, if not 1, as Bannerslave. 16 to 20k DPS is much more reasonable to expect and perfectly fine to beat every raid.

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“ The only reason I can begin to fathom is that the Devs think that kitten dps is a decent trade-off for a bit more sustain.”

This is exactly the devs thinking and why they applied major needed nerfs to the class which removed it originally from T4 FOTM pug meta many months ago.

The epidemic skill nerf hit necros hard when they were meta for Dhuum CM and other fights.

TBF - I understand the logic and am fine with the devs thinking on necro.

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Its because PvE is about alot more than just instanced content, and Necro walks through most of PvE without even breaking a sweat, while those classes with higher DPS actually have to take risks to achieve those numbers.

Yes, Necro could use buffs in instanced content, but the problem is ArenaNet can't limit it to just that, and they're already the most efficient class to take to almost every other area of PvE, and even for instanced content they're still the most efficient class for soloing Dungeons and Fractals. They're just not the most efficient class, DPS-wise, to bring with a group, and that's.. fair?

One thing that would help is if the damage increase from Fear lasted longer. It should linger for a while.

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Because Necro has OP levels of carry options.

Because Necro is the easiest class in the game.

Because Necro is the safe option, even as dps.Stack necros and you cant really fail most raids/strikes.

Necro is by design "slow but steady".

It has the highest chance of success but will not break a record.(If you cant epi bounce)

Basically, Necro is the easymode of Gw2.

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About Scourges...A slight damage increase (like 5-10%) should be fine but anything above that is too much. There is no other DPS build that provides this amount of safety to the player and their squad.Sand Shades, already being such an easy and quite spammable class mechic, come with group condition cleanses, boon strips, and group barrier. The best-in-slot DPS utilities include a very strong healing skill and an anctual ressing signet. And there is the large HP pool to consider which keeps a lot of players from downing constantly. Epidemic remains a strong option for both on demand AoE damage as well as the good old Epibouncing. It is no longer utterly broken but still worth using as long as there is any option to bounce.

The arsenal of most DPS builds looks rather laughable in comparison. There isn't even a rotation. All you have is a simple priority list. Granting this build damage even remotely equal to the top builds would be quite the opposite of balance. A lot of less experienced players already find themselves outperforming half of their squad because actual raid bosses are about more than just single target DPS against a dummy.

They have their place in raids. Quite a good place actually. It is simply not as obvious as the spot on top of the benchmarks.

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cries as condi thief Apparently people at least remember that necromancer exists. Meanwhile condi teef's plight has fallen to oblivion...

On a more necromantic note, Kitty always likes to remind that power scrapper is stronger than reaper atm without the downside of taking damage reducing dps and it makes reaper's survivability laughable while also providing superior utility and ranged resses without sacrificing dps. Somehow adding 10% power dps would bring it a bit past scrapper while still below warrior and other dpsers.The best way to do this in PvE, in Kitty's somewhat educated opinion, would be by bumping up the damage mods on greatsword by 0.1 per skill in auto-attack chain (that chain is among the slowest) and Life Reap (Reaper Form auto-chain's first attack) from 0.875 to 1.0.Axe and dagger could also use a tiny bit of extra damage and off-hand weapons shouldn't be a dps loss for core necro/reaper.Kitty would personally do that to axe and dagger by bringing PvE version of Unholy Feast to same as WvW/PvP version and by boosting the damage modifier of dagger's Necrotic Stab from 0.7 to 0.8. Off-hand-wise things are quite tricky as off-hand power weapons now mostly siphon, CC or get massive boost from boon strip. Off-hand dagger would have potential on Enfeebling Blood but that would kinda go against off-hand dagger's nature as condi weapon.

Nonetheless, the suggestions above would be quite minute but fix a bit of power necromancer's damage issues in PvE. This current gap between power necromancer and every other power dps build just doesn't feel very justified by "survivability". Shroud is a power boost and works essentially as 2nd healthbar, but the old wisdow goes "It doesn't matter how big your healthbar is if you can't sustain it. You just die slower." Soul Eater does help a tiny bit but is still quite laughable compared to Impact Savant and Invigorating Precision.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:Because Arenanet doesn't balance on the golem numbers from a speedrun guild.Do you think there is a good reason they should?Instead, they tend to balance Necromancers in PvE around the class' PvP effectiveness. I don't really see a good reason for doing that.

@maddoctor.2738 said:And then you play actual encounters and you have a Power Reaper doing more dps than everyone in the squadTrue, the difference between classes is still not that big thad it can't be offset by larger differences in skill. A good player can make even a mediocre class/build look good. On the other hand, if all the other players were as skilled with their classes as the power reaper player was with his, i'm sure that the numbers would have looked differently.

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I think scourge is reasonable given it's insane level of group support, but reaper on the other hand provides nothing aside CC meanwhile...

It always irks me when people say reaper is ez to play ez to survive on because its just not true in end game content (it is true for open world tho).

  1. it is NOT easy to survive on if you running the meta build, your only defences aside positioning and dodging (which everyone can do) is CC (only on open world trash, and very few consistently available sources) and stun break (every class can access stun break, but also necro happens to have some of the worst access to stun break of all professions)- most professions in the game have some access to additional active defenses either in thier meta build or not (blocks, invuln, aegis, extra dodges, heck even leaps and shadowstep/teleports would be a step above what reaper/necro in general gets)...the issue with an extra health bar is, in raids and fractals anyway, if somehting kills you it KILLS you. You cannot outheal an attack which either does bonkers damage or is scripted, either one to intentionally down you if you fail the mechanic, extra health isn't useless per se, but doing an encounter correctly will get you much further than additional health will.
  2. reaper rotation being simple doesn't mean its the only simple rotation out there- there are some even easier than reaper, especially when considering that reaper has a lot of oppotunities to optimise by cutting aftercasts via weapon stowing/shroud.
  3. you actually need to be BETTER at mechanics than everyone else is, because you can't be healed while in shroud, and if your life force is depleted by damage you won't be able to get off your burst properly. so if you make no effort to avoid damage at all, you will perform much worse than everyone else anyway, and then your shroud time is also cut by cannot-be-avoided arena damage.

given those things, i think its more than fair that reaper should have a higher maximum potential damage, the issue arises that making reaper more powerful in raids/fractals also would have the same effect in open world (on the other hand, i personally don't care about open world balance cus everything works)- and design wise, it's really hard to work around those issues because reaper shroud, IMO, inherently doesn't function like the rest of gw2 combat - which is built on skill being more important than stats (not to say stats are irrelevant, but for example unlike lots of mmos, your health bar is generally an allowance for mistakes and not "if you have less than x health this enemy cannot be killed no matter what because of its dps output"), necro is the closest thing we have to being able to play the game like traditional MMORPG combat system which i suspect is why it's so popular. Without revamping reaper to be something else entirely, you're stuck with an extra health bar that holds it back from making other changes, though i will note: scrapper gives more to the group while being easiser to survive on anyway and doing...not that much worse dps, so maybe reaper does deserve a little love.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:Because Arenanet doesn't balance on the golem numbers from a speedrun guild.Do you think there is a good reason they should?Instead, they tend to balance Necromancers in PvE around the class' PvP effectiveness. I don't really see a good reason for doing that.Because you have the global performance data of all people playing Necro. You know their average DPS on Cairn or Fraenir of Jormag, or t3 Molten Boss and can clearly contrast that data with the performance numbers of other classes...right?I mean you aren't just making a statement like that without hard data to back it up and ignoring that the balance numbers in competitive and in PvE are actually handled by different people...right?

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There was a recent balance patch? /s

Reaper has held its ~31k bench for more than a solid year by now... the fact that players are crying out only now just means that too many of the other specs have been questionably overbuffed to this bizarre new standard. I really don't understand why this is happening in the first place, or why anyone sees the need to balance around this standard.

If reaper was previously 'OK' with its 'shafted' 31k dps, why is even higher dps being added into the game? Who thought that 2 PvE balance patches ago, we needed to shift DH, holo and slb from 34k into 38k territory? Before that, condi weaver and chrono from 32k to 40k? All the while with reaper at 31k all that time?

PvE content was and is still completable with lower dps. Did we ever need more damage? Also why are we advocating for more damage?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:And then you play actual encounters and you have a Power Reaper doing more dps than everyone in the squadTrue, the difference between classes is still not that big thad it can't be offset by larger differences in skill. A good player can make even a mediocre class/build look good. On the other hand, if all the
other
players were as skilled with their classes as the power reaper player was with his, i'm sure that the numbers would have looked differently.

It's not that the difference between classes isn't big and even alternative weapons within a class. It's just that there's even a lot bigger difference between properly-geared skilled player versus player with mixmatch gears trying to mimic meta while not understanding the essences of the builds. Kitty can outperform tons of people on a power rifle berserker or core condi necro 'cause she has close to optimal gears for them and she's a very experienced raiders understanding the builds to the core but that doesn't mean those builds aren't horribad. Within the same skill+gear level, the differences are vastly noticeable and no matter how hard Kitty tried on her off-meta builds, she wouldn't be able to outdps a decent player on metabuild that knows what they're doing.

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@"Lexi.1398" said:I think scourge is reasonable given it's insane level of group support, but reaper on the other hand provides nothing aside CC meanwhile...

It always irks me when people say reaper is ez to play ez to survive on because its just not true in end game content (it is true for open world tho).

  1. it is NOT easy to survive on if you running the meta build, your only defences aside positioning and dodging (which everyone can do) is CC (only on open world trash, and very few consistently available sources) and stun break (every class can access stun break, but also necro happens to have some of the worst access to stun break of all professions)- most professions in the game have some access to additional active defenses either in thier meta build or not (blocks, invuln, aegis, extra dodges, heck even leaps and shadowstep/teleports would be a step above what reaper/necro in general gets)...the issue with an extra health bar is, in raids and fractals anyway, if somehting kills you it KILLS you. You cannot outheal an attack which either does bonkers damage or is scripted, either one to intentionally down you if you fail the mechanic, extra health isn't useless per se, but doing an encounter correctly will get you much further than additional health will.
  2. reaper rotation being simple doesn't mean its the only simple rotation out there- there are some even easier than reaper, especially when considering that reaper has a lot of oppotunities to optimise by cutting aftercasts via weapon stowing/shroud.
  3. you actually need to be BETTER at mechanics than everyone else is, because you can't be healed while in shroud, and if your life force is depleted by damage you won't be able to get off your burst properly. so if you make no effort to avoid damage at all, you will perform much worse than everyone else anyway, and then your shroud time is also cut by cannot-be-avoided arena damage.

given those things, i think its more than fair that reaper should have a higher maximum potential damage, the issue arises that making reaper more powerful in raids/fractals also would have the same effect in open world (on the other hand, i personally don't care about open world balance cus everything works)- and design wise, it's really hard to work around those issues because reaper shroud, IMO, inherently doesn't function like the rest of gw2 combat - which is built on skill being more important than stats (not to say stats are irrelevant, but for example unlike lots of mmos, your health bar is generally an allowance for mistakes and not "if you have less than x health this enemy cannot be killed no matter what because of its dps output"), necro is the closest thing we have to being able to play the game like traditional MMORPG combat system which i suspect is why it's so popular. Without revamping reaper to be something else entirely, you're stuck with an extra health bar that holds it back from making other changes, though i will note: scrapper gives more to the group while being easiser to survive on anyway and doing...not that much worse dps, so maybe reaper does deserve a little love.

Removing the ability to easily self buff with 25 Might permanently and replacing it with some more damage modifiers would keep necromancer at a similar power damage capability solo, while making it more effective when in a team providing Might.

Reaper's Might: +1% Damage for each boon on youSiphoned Power: +2% Damage for each unique condition on your target

Using a combination of Chilling Victory, "You are all weaklings !", Blood is Power, Superior Sigil of Strength, Superior Rune of Strength; Reaper would still be decently able to buff itself with Might.The only builds that would be nerfed are Minion Masters, but the pets already do the work for you so I don't consider it a loss.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:Its because PvE is about alot more than just instanced content, and Necro walks through most of PvE without even breaking a sweat, while those classes with higher DPS actually have to take risks to achieve those numbers.

Yes, Necro could use buffs in instanced content, but the problem is ArenaNet can't limit it to just that, and they're already the most efficient class to take to almost every other area of PvE, and even for instanced content they're still the most efficient class for soloing Dungeons and Fractals. They're just not the most efficient class, DPS-wise, to bring with a group, and that's.. fair?

One thing that would help is if the damage increase from Fear lasted longer. It should linger for a while.

Where does this myth come from? No they are not. Fb and chrono are and are also good in groups. Actually reaper is quite bad for soloing harder stuff since minion master facetank doesnt work everywhere.The bias in this thread is as extreme as always. A lot of classes can selfbuff as hard as necro but for some reason necro is the only one with terrible dps. Yes i can be top dps on reaper but I could have done quite a bit more on a actually good spec. Try being a dps reaper in a good group. everyone will have like 20% more dps ON ACTUAL BOSSES and just force you to swap to a real class since certain strategies dont work with that low dps coupled with almost no support except boon corrupt.

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Wow, I see a LOT of stigmas from "hearsay" popping up again, about how easy Necro's are, and how they deserve no good DPS, etc. Sometimes even coming from Warrior mains .... c'mon, really???? With full marauder on my Warrior I can still outdps a Necro easily and have superior survivability ...OR that easy rotation argument ..., cause pDeadeyes, staff Daredevils, pDragonhunters, axe/axe Berserkers, cSoulbeasts, even pHolos have such difficult rotations ... right?Another aspect that no-one ever talks about is the forgiveness of a rotation: I can say from proven numbers (with high enough 'n') that the forgiveness of the so called very difficult cWeaver rotation is quite a bit higher than that of the pReaper, where you're punished severely if you actually use your shroud for survivability.

But I guess it doesn't matter how much proof or good arguments are given against it, these stigmas are not for nothing just that: stigmas. I'm definitely not the one who's going to change that!

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:Because Arenanet doesn't balance on the golem numbers from a speedrun guild.Do you think there is a good reason they should?Instead, they tend to balance Necromancers in PvE around the class' PvP effectiveness. I don't really see a good reason for doing that.Because you have the global performance data of all people playing Necro. You know their average DPS on Cairn or Fraenir of Jormag, or t3 Molten Boss and can clearly contrast that data with the performance numbers of other classes...right?I mean you aren't just making a statement like that without hard data to back it up and ignoring that the balance numbers in competitive and in PvE are actually handled by different people...right?

There was in the form of Raidar (site's offline since several months now) ... even before the buffs of the other professions, DPS differences between ALL other professions and Necro's (pReaper AND cScourge) were ranging in real raid scenarios from 15% up to 50% even. And those gaps were not only measured amongst speedclearers and such, but also amongst mediocre players (making mistakes in their rotations, etc.): actually there tend to be even bigger gaps there!Again, this was data before the buffs to the other classes (Necro didnt receive any), so these gaps have only grown bigger now!

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@lare.5129 said:

@"Shaogin.2679" said:
Why are Necromancers

Don't look on this fake resource. This is fake numbers on golem whit all boons, all stat infusions, from same position. Also keep that is whit get same all stats and will try repeat it it on golem - it is not repeatable for 99% players.

And there's a reason why it's all boons these days: you have perma-uptime on all boons at Mursaat Overseer which is one of the raid bosses. SC still doesn't add all profession-specifics nor all conditions if the class would get unrealistic advantage from excessive condis. SC's benchmarks are pretty much the top that players could reach, though there might be marginally more room for improvements but that'd require hours and hours more grinding for them. Though one thing Kitty likes to nitpick on is that they do exclude certain builds that'd do enough dps to get on the charts but they pretty much do so 'cause there's an alternative within the class that brings more at same dps (for ex. DD vs DE). Ofc for alternatives, Kitty's videos exist.

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:but that'd require hours and hours more grinding for them.hours and hours = years.

Though one thing Kitty likes to nitpick on is that they do exclude certain builds that'd do enough dps to get on the charts but they pretty much do so 'cause there's an alternative within the class that brings more at same dps (for ex. DD vs DE). Ofc for alternatives, Kitty's videos exist.yes, I like yours one pistol condi thief build. Welcome !

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Its not a fake resource. You can replicate every aspect of the benchmark and the information to do so is in the log files in the video description.

Once you replicate the test setup, the only difference between you and [sC] is your execution/micromanagement, which is what these benchmarks are for. It is to establish a theoretical ceiling for a particular build and then use it to practice your execution.

Power Reaper has a lower ceiling than all the other meta dps builds but it also has one of the highest floors. Consistantly high average dps in practical, real world scenarios is easy to achieve on a Power Reaper, more so in sub optimal conditions. Its pretty great in fractal pugs and tends towards godliness the more hopelessly disorganized and incompetent your team is. Slow and steady, its the tortoise which beats all the hares that close their eyes long enough to make a mistake. There is a good reason why it is frequently noted as a strong off meta dps build.

For basically everything except high end speed clears, it is not unusual to see a Power Reaper top arcDPS when your Weaver is flinging their camera all over the place and rides the lightning off a cliff (not gonna lie, I've done it) or your Power Berserker doesn't have iron wrists + rhythm commensurate with a guitar hero world champion.

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