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Please stop asking LI for strike missions

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  • DutchRiders.2871DutchRiders.2871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

    If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

    If raids go non-existent I wouldn't care, they are not interested and are just a way for the "Elite" to kitten the E-kitten. The loot is garbo, the encounters are garbo and frankly Id rather them use the resources elsewhere for better content. Like a WvW overhaul or maybe like I don't know class balance? Stop wasting resources on an extremely niche game mode, and as seen strikes seem way more readily accessed by the community than raids do. But then.... that just might be because of the people within that section of the community? Who knows. If you want quality raiding WoW exists and that is ALL that game has been about and has been built from the ground up over the years to be master at raid encounters, Guild wars 2? Was never designed for such and shoe-horning it in was a mistake, one that continues to be wanked about even today as its population dwindles and continues to sink.

    Sorry, but its a waste of precious developer time.

    I dont care about gw2 raids in particular though ? The game is supposed to be easy. For quality raiding and tbh quality pve you join ffxiv.

    I would sign up for deleting all pve support and reworking wvw and pvp.

    This opinion doesn't change the fact that I rather play with raiders in strikes, cause they approach pve in a fashion that resembles my own approach to raids/strikes and bosses.

    The community you like plays a difficulty of gaming where it's impossible to lose. Ofcourse they are gonna be happy and all inclusive. When stuff gets real and they can lose precious loot they get toxic and form communities (wurms/old chak/champ trains/marrionet/Halloween maze/sw).

    Last week I made an all strikes everyone welcome, I did a few of those actually. People cannot even talk and say hi, if you like to play that way that's fine.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    There's a reason your game mode was abandoned by the developers, your dwindling player base wasn't worth their time and resources. You're just going to get strike missions abandoned next.

    If you need to depend on players actively trying to get more players into the content to keep the content populated, it's a problem with content design.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    I just can't believe there is another thread on this.

    As long there are people that try to cut themselves off from the vast majority via requirements, these threads will never stop.

    That wouldn't have mattered if it was a content those other players could do on their own. You could then safely just ignore those groups with requirements with no problem.

    Again, what you complain against is not caused by players. It's caused by content design.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    There's a reason your game mode was abandoned by the developers, your dwindling player base wasn't worth their time and resources. You're just going to get strike missions abandoned next.

    If you need to depend on players actively trying to get more players into the content to keep the content populated, it's a problem with content design.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    I just can't believe there is another thread on this.

    As long there are people that try to cut themselves off from the vast majority via requirements, these threads will never stop.

    That wouldn't have mattered if it was a content those other players could do on their own. You could then safely just ignore those groups with requirements with no problem.

    Again, what you complain against is not caused by players. It's caused by content design.

    So, if someone requires raid kill proofs for something like Whisper of Jormag, it's a problem of content design?
    I certainly don't think so. After all, whisper of Jormag is perfectly beatable with a bunch of average randoms, who likely never touched raids.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I certainly don't think so. After all, whisper of Jormag is perfectly beatable with a bunch of average randoms, who likely never touched raids.

    If you indeed believe this then there is nothing wrong with people asking for whatever they want for their squads. Because you are very able to start your own and beat the content.

    Earlier in a super toxic post you wrote:

    As long there are people that try to cut themselves off from the vast majority via requirements, these threads will never stop.

    If the content is beatable by a pug of ten randoms then there can be no one gatekeeping. This means that a 250 LI group is just people playing with like-minded folks. They aren't breaking ToS or even the spirit of the LFG tool. They are using the tool as intended.
    I mean you can keep up the threats of brigading (and actual brigading) all you like,but it seems rather pointless.
    Your own own admission guts any logic from it.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    So, if someone requires raid kill proofs for something like Whisper of Jormag, it's a problem of content design?
    I certainly don't think so. After all, whisper of Jormag is perfectly beatable with a bunch of average randoms, who likely never touched raids.

    They may have a chance, but i'd estimate that chance to be really low. Unless a lot of those "average randoms" aren't really average at all.
    Hint: average player dps in this fight means hitting enrage. And that's assuming noone dies, which, in case of average players, is also very unlikely.

    Also, as the poster above me pointed out, if truly any group of "average randoms" could easily perfectly beat Whispers of Jormag, then requiring kill proofs for that fight by some players would definitely not be a problem. After all, you could always use the public queue for it, or make an all open LFG, and you'd still be able to make a kill as easily.

    It's only a problem if you cannot realistically do that and hope to succeed. And that's not a problem with LFG requirements, but with the content itself.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Earlier in a super toxic post you wrote:

    As long there are people that try to cut themselves off from the vast majority via requirements, these threads will never stop.

    How is this even toxic in any way?
    By putting up those requirements, they express their explicit wish not to play with the vast majority effectively, trying to cut ties with said majority.

    It's a fact that people will always continue to complain, as long as something exists.
    In this case, that something is top end players wanting to distance themselves from the average players.

    If the content is beatable by a pug of ten randoms then there can be no one gatekeeping.

    My comment wasn't about gatekeeping at all.

    This means that a 250 LI group is just people playing with like-minded folks. They aren't breaking ToS or even the spirit of the LFG tool. They are using the tool as intended.

    I never even implied they are breaking any rules or other things.

    I mean you can keep up the threats of brigading (and actual brigading) all you like,but it seems rather pointless.

    You realize that a thread in a forum and a threat are entirely different things, right?

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    So, if someone requires raid kill proofs for something like Whisper of Jormag, it's a problem of content design?
    I certainly don't think so. After all, whisper of Jormag is perfectly beatable with a bunch of average randoms, who likely never touched raids.

    They may have a chance, but i'd estimate that chance to be really low. Unless a lot of those "average randoms" aren't really average at all.

    At least I assume that most of the people I did Whisper of Jormag with are average people, and all people I did strikes with were definitely random PUGs (to me).
    I possibly had the occassional top end player, but they weren't noticeable, as they didn't complain.

    Also, as the poster above me pointed out, if truly any group of "average randoms" could easily perfectly beat Whispers of Jormag, then requiring kill proofs for that
    fight by some players would definitely not be a problem. After all, you could always use the public queue for it, or make an all open LFG, and you'd still be able to make a kill as easily.

    I never said anything about easy.
    However, most squads I opening for Whisper of Jormag finished within few tries.
    Although my usage of perfectly was wrong. I was thinking of the term perfectly fine, which is describing one being content with adequacy and mediocrity.

    It's only a problem if you cannot realistically do that and hope to succeed.

    And I have a higher success rate than failure rate, without ever posting any requirements in the squads I opening.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    And I have a higher success rate than failure rate, without ever posting any requirements in the squads I opening.

    That's only because a lot of the players you end up with are almost certainly on the level people asking for said requirements hope to get. And that only happens because most players that did not fit those requirements stopped trying to queue for Whisper already.

    I have a lot of experience with running those types of content with both raid-capable and so-called average players, and i know exactly how big the difference is. So with a degree of certaintly i can tell you that:
    1. you won't get a group of average players through this strike without having at least one competent (meaning aboveaverage) healer. With some training you could have such group surviving up to chains, or even to bullet hell phase if you're lucky, but after that average players (and a lot of aboveaverage ones) would get downed left and right without a healer support. Some will get killed even with said support, unless you're running multiple healers. And there's a massive difference between an experienced healer and an average player running healer build.
    2. a group of random average players will get next to no boons (not only due to not having a good support players, but also by not staying consistently within boon range).
    3. a group consisting of average dps players is practically certain to hit enrage, even if noone will get downed.
    Add 1 to 2, and you get a situation where a grup of random average players is very unlikely to clear this content at all. Not without help from a significant number of well-above average players.
    The only reason i can see why your groups had better than 50% success rate is because you keep getting a significant number of experienced, above-average players in your squads. You should be aware, though, that those better players likely do most of the work here, while the rest are only getting carried.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Yakez.7561Yakez.7561 Member ✭✭

    The most ridiculous thing is that you CAN clear Whisper with like 3-4 dps and bunch of tourists that do 0.5k dps. Personally I play for fun and often carry people on heal scourge.

    LI req is good. It motivates people to get better. If whole strike LFG would be LI groups people would start to raid and building community around it again. Joining strikes as tourists and making 0.5k dps is just awful. Other day i had warrur that stated he would do 25k dps. Guess what? he done total of 0.8k dps.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yakez.7561 said:
    The most ridiculous thing is that you CAN clear Whisper with like 3-4 dps and bunch of tourists that do 0.5k dps. Personally I play for fun and often carry people on heal scourge.

    Indeed. The caveat , of course, is, that without those 3-4 experienced players the rest would not clear.

    LI req is good. It motivates people to get better. If whole strike LFG would be LI groups people would start to raid and building community around it again.

    No, they would simply not join at all. Just like they did not join raids.

    Joining strikes as tourists and making 0.5k dps is just awful. Other day i had warrur that stated he would do 25k dps. Guess what? he done total of 0.8k dps.

    I feel your pain. Although, that's actually well below average. An "average random" (say, a "veteran" bearbow) should do around 3-4k when alive.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Yakez.7561 said:
    LI req is good. It motivates people to get better.

    It motivates very, very small percentage of players.

    If whole strike LFG would be LI groups people would start to raid and building community around it again.

    People don't suddenly try to get better, just because some requirement is in the way of a small bit of content.
    If all the groups had requirements, people would simply stop doing Strike missions and do other content that doesn't have requirements.
    With the game gaining an even higher percentage of open-world-only players due to said requirements, the development would shift even further away from instanced content.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    So, if someone requires raid kill proofs for something like Whisper of Jormag, it's a problem of content design?

    No but depending on what the target audience is it can be a symptom of one e.g. let's say they introduce a new raid with the stated goal to make it "as accessible to the wider player base as possible" while also adding a challenge mode designed for "only the most hardcore players".

    If, in this case, the average LFG pug for the "normal mode" would put up some KP requirements then this would be an strong indicator for the presence of some mechanics capable of turning the raid into a mess and therefore a failure to fulfill the initial premise.

    However, for the challenge mode it would be the opposite. The lack of KP requirements for pugs would be an indicator for the content being to easy and thus failing its initial premise.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    As long as players join groups and do 2-3k as a dps, I will keep putting requirements in my LFG.

    If they ever stop, I will make all welcome groups, but I dont have much hope of that happening.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    With the game gaining an even higher percentage of open-world-only players due to said requirements, the development would shift even further away from instanced content.

    These people will never understand that all they're accomplishing with their gatekeeping is making ALL development stop on any type of instanced content. They're basically self-defeating.

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    As long as players join groups and do 2-3k as a dps, I will keep putting requirements in my LFG.

    If they ever stop, I will make all welcome groups, but I dont have much hope of that happening.

    Anet had a chance to add recommended builds and gear sets when they added templates but they did not. Giving new players something to use would've helped a ton, as they'd be running a decent build and pulling at least 10k instead fo 2-3k.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    These people will never understand that all they're accomplishing with their gatekeeping is making ALL development stop on any type of instanced content. They're basically self-defeating.

    Having multiple difficulty options could easily solve this kill proof situation.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    These people will never understand that all they're accomplishing with their gatekeeping is making ALL development stop on any type of instanced content. They're basically self-defeating.

    Having multiple difficulty options could easily solve this kill proof situation.

    It depends, if the lower difficulties allow you to still work towards whatever the long term goal of the content in question is (even if it's in a slower but still reasonable pace) then yes. Otherwise: no. If you can only progress though the "hard mode" then people would just ignore the lower difficulties (maybe playing it once for the story) and try to join hard runs leading to the same situation we have rn.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    With the game gaining an even higher percentage of open-world-only players due to said requirements, the development would shift even further away from instanced content.

    These people will never understand that all they're accomplishing with their gatekeeping is making ALL development stop on any type of instanced content. They're basically self-defeating.

    They already stopped making any decent challenging content. As far as im concerned its already dead. Strikes are only worth it to me if I can do them in under 30mins (full clear) as the rewards arent that good. In order to have a decent chance of that I need to put requirements in my LFG.

    Id rather just not bother with strikes at all, ever, if I was forced to run all welcome groups all the time. I imagine most people who raid or do fractal CM's wouldn't bother with it either if they had to take inexperienced players on every run. it would kill off the content much much faster than any requirements have done.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    "Proof Kill requirement is bad, instead you are required to carry".
    The KP requirement "problem" doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is there because some people outright lie about their experience, skill or knowledge of fight mechanics and end up being a waste of time for other players.

    I never put any KP requirement but typically, when you advertise for T4 fractals, there is an implicit requirement: have 150 AR.
    Even then it's not always respected, or you have people who have no clue about what aoe and dodge mean and will get in contact with whatever is red and get downed 10 times a minute (looking at you, Bloomhunger), something you should have learned in T2 or T3.
    Well sorry but after spending half an hour rezing the same people, it sometimes makes me want to add a KP req.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    These people will never understand that all they're accomplishing with their gatekeeping is making ALL development stop on any type of instanced content. They're basically self-defeating.

    Actually, not asking KP would kill it way faster.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Having multiple difficulty options could easily solve this kill proof situation.

    How exactly?

  • Ooops.8694Ooops.8694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    So, if someone requires raid kill proofs for something like Whisper of Jormag, it's a problem of content design?

    I'm pretty sure it's not too difficult to open your own group, so you are forced to join existing ones, even if they post requirements you don't like.
    So why instead whine here about the requirements posted in other player's lfgs?

    Either the content feels completely undoable even after you tried it again and again and you really need help. Then it's a problem of content design.

    Or you simply can't be bothered to form your own group and pull your weight but still feel entitled to the rewards and want to be carried. Then it's indeed a player problem! But definitely not a problem caused by the people posting li requirements...

    As long as your own group (with all the requirements you want or a complete lack of any) is only one click away, but people still cry about other's requirements instead of just doing their own group, there simply is no third option that makes any sense:
    Either the designers completely missed their goal and made it far too difficult for the majority of players or (at least a bunch of very vocal) players nowadays are just spoiled and should really think about their sense of entitlement.

    The cynic in me thinks he knows the answer but as none of the whiners will ever admit it might be their own fault... yes, it must be a problem of content design! :-D

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    How exactly?

    The average players could do the easier option and enjoy it without any requirements.
    Meanwhile, the top end players could stick to their requirements and do the harder options with other top players.

    @Ooops.8694 said:
    I'm pretty sure it's not too difficult to open your own group, so you are forced to join existing ones, even if they post requirements you don't like.

    It's not too difficult, but some people seem to have an aversion against opening groups, thinking they'd have to take on a leading role.
    When I open my LFGs, I (almost) never assume such a role though.

    So why instead whine here about the requirements posted in other player's lfgs?

    Some people believe that complaining enough on the forums will actually cause Arenanet to do something about the situation.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The average players could do the easier option and enjoy it without any requirements.
    Meanwhile, the top end players could stick to their requirements and do the harder options with other top players.

    So it wouldn't fix the kill proof situation as the "average player" would still not get the kill proof to join the actual group they are missing access to at this point. Only play a different version of the content with different mechanics and different rewards. Not addressing the "kill proof situation" the least bit. It's like saying having multiple tiers in Fractals means there are no groups with requirements on T4 which is obviously false. And since this is a topic about Strike Missions, do we really need an easier version of Shiverpeak Pass?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The average players could do the easier option and enjoy it without any requirements.
    Meanwhile, the top end players could stick to their requirements and do the harder options with other top players.

    So it wouldn't fix the kill proof situation as the "average player" would still not get the kill proof to join the actual group they are missing access to at this point. Only play a different version of the content with different mechanics and different rewards. Not addressing the "kill proof situation" the least bit. It's like saying having multiple tiers in Fractals means there are no groups with requirements on T4 which is obviously false.

    The easy mode could still reward kill proof, albeit less then harder modes.
    So people could still accumulate and eventually join the parties that require it.

    And since this is a topic about Strike Missions

    Since this thread is about raid kill proof, this thread is not restricted to Strike Missions.

    do we really need an easier version of Shiverpeak Pass?

    Boneskinner could use an easier mode, while Shiverpeaks Pass could use a harder mode.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The easy mode could still reward kill proof, albeit less then harder modes.

    That would simply cause the KP requirements to sky rocket. Also: see Fractals

    Since this thread is about raid kill proof, this thread is not restricted to Strike Missions.

    Read the topic and the OP

  • Kill proof requirements are fine and for the most part are a good thing but I do find it interesting that LI became the entry requirement for strikes given that you can't get it by actually doing strikes. I get that raids are harder, therefore if you can prove you can raid, you are overqualified for strikes.

    It nevertheless makes you wonder why Anet didn't turn misty cape scraps into a stackable inventory item and therefore make them usable as KP for strikes. KP that you acquire by actually doing the thing its supposed to prove you can do. Hell they could have created a series of technical and/or speed clear type achievements with increasingly elaborate cape trims ending in a precursor and legendary cape.

    Imagine trying to explain this to your noob friend. If it gets too confusing Jimmy, don't worry about it, lets just go gank some plebs in WvW. Whats your spvp rank? Show me your finisher...

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    Kill proof requirements are fine and for the most part are a good thing but I do find it interesting that LI became the entry requirement for strikes given that you can't get it by actually doing strikes. I get that raids are harder, therefore if you can prove you can raid, you are overqualified for strikes.

    KP req never became entry level for strikes? Why so is so many people pushing this narrative? LI squads for strikes have nothing to do with how You play your game. It does not affect you in any way. Make requirements You see fit, don't join LI squads If you don't want to. You don't have monopoly over LFG. We can't force you to join our squads and you can't force us to join yours either. Live and let live.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    its kind of hilarious in a sad way that this is happening. strike missions like you said are supposed to be an intro to raids, except people that raid won't accept people that don't. it would be cool if more people were relaxed and friendly, willing to teach newbies but most people just aren't. asking people to change isn't going to get you anywhere, but you can be the change you want to see (I know its corny but its true).

    Te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    With the game gaining an even higher percentage of open-world-only players due to said requirements, the development would shift even further away from instanced content.

    These people will never understand that all they're accomplishing with their gatekeeping is making ALL development stop on any type of instanced content. They're basically self-defeating.

    What you need to understand however that this so called "gatekeeping" goes both ways. People not good enough to clear joining the content are also preventing the better players from finishing it. It's not the fault of the players that put up requirements that they want to clear the content with no problem. If those players need to put up high requirements to do so, it's not on them, but on the content.

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    As long as players join groups and do 2-3k as a dps, I will keep putting requirements in my LFG.

    If they ever stop, I will make all welcome groups, but I dont have much hope of that happening.

    Anet had a chance to add recommended builds and gear sets when they added templates but they did not. Giving new players something to use would've helped a ton, as they'd be running a decent build and pulling at least 10k instead fo 2-3k.

    Now, do you understand my point of view? The "killproof" problem is not something that players can solve. It's something only the devs could fix.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2020

    People who ask for LI are creating a group with their preferences. Why don't you do the same?

  • I understand both sides of this problem. On one hand asking for LI from raids to do a strike mission is absurd. On the other, I know the frustration of doing an easy strike mission, and still having people drop like flies at the first attack. So some basic combat experience would be nice.

    Surely there is a middle ground to be found?

  • I find it genuinely funny that people keep thinking that LFG requirements are "gatekeeping" them from playing the content. People keep believing that, if they cannot join a pre-made group on LFG, then they can't play the content at all.....but that's delusional.
    Nothing is preventing anyone from creating a group at any time. Other players wanting to play with specific players (which exclude you) doesnt prevent you from creating your own group asking for whoever you want (or having no requirements in any way if that's what you want). There is NO ONE preventing you from playing the content except yourself.

    What do you think those "high requirements" players did before being able to fill such requirements ? They created their own group. Simple. I can't believe people feel that strikes are inaccessible when it is extremely easy to create a group and get into the content. Open LFG, click "Advertise your group", put up a nice short description, get people, play the content. You might even one shot it :) That's easy !

    Now, if you refuse to create your own group because you dont want to play with inexperienced players and possibly fail, but you want to join experienced groups even though you're inexperienced and feel gatekept from playing the content because those experienced groups wont take you with them, then YOU are the problem with this community. Not them.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

    If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

    "I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

    Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

    Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

    Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

    If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

    "I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

    Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

    Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

    Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).

    That probably won't happen. You see, @Shikaru.7618 is wrong in his assesment here. The rift is indeed caused by performance gap, but the gap itself is not a result of the game not preparing you for higher difficulty. Or rather, it is, but not in the way Shikaru thinks. The gap is caused by the combination of some of the core features of GW2 - specifically by freeform build system and action combat.

    Basically, in other games, the build/combat system is created in such a way, that impact of even the greatest gaps in skill and knowledge on your effectiveness are minimized. Those games will not let you make a really bad build, and will try to flatten the skill differences by putting more emphasis on gear.

    In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you can easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.

    So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to ever be addressed.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    I think li is just there to keep more players from playing the content. and also because they assume it is hard enough for most of the community. I find this an insult to injury. I certainly won't miss playing with such people. just because you claim it is hardcore content doesn't mean it was ment to be. If it wasn't about dps tank builds would be rewarded aswell. you just cry about the 5 seconds you lose, because one player didn't press the correct skill rotation. I never gonna raid and it is kind of a shame tbh that wannabe hardcore players think they have the say in what to do.

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I think li is just there to keep more players from playing the content. and also because they assume it is hard enough for most of the community. I find this an insult to injury. I certainly won't miss playing with such people. just because you claim it is hardcore content doesn't mean it was ment to be. If it wasn't about dps tank builds would be rewarded aswell. you just cry about the 5 seconds you lose, because one player didn't press the correct skill rotation. I never gonna raid and it is kind of a shame tbh that wannabe hardcore players think they have the say in what to do.

    The truth is no one really cares about what you do. These "wannabe hardcore players" want to play with other "wannabe hardcore players." If you don't want to play with them, don't. It is simple. Make your own group. Find people that you want to play with. Either way, don't blame them for why you don't play the content.

    It blows my mind how many people say they can't play content because of people asking for LI or KP for things.

    Anyone can make a squad. I guarantee I have seen at least 10 people complaining about this.

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
    ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?
    If they would pull that kitten on me, i would sue instantly. And i have enough time and money to finish that.
    Balance? More like a bunch of random nerfs done by interns.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

    If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

    "I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

    Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

    Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

    Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).

    That probably won't happen. You see, @Shikaru.7618 is wrong in his assesment here. The rift is indeed caused by performance gap, but the gap itself is not a result of the game not preparing you for higher difficulty. Or rather, it is, but not in the way Shikaru thinks. The gap is caused by the combination of some of the core features of GW2 - specifically by freeform build system and action combat.

    Basically, in other games, the build/combat system is created in such a way, that impact of even the greatest gaps in skill and knowledge on your effectiveness are minimized. Those games will not let you make a really bad build, and will try to flatten the skill differences by putting more emphasis on gear.

    In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you can easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.

    So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to ever be addressed.

    You are ignoring the fact that if content gets harder veery slowly, people will get mechanically better eventually without feeling forced to. People only leave if they feel that the gap is to big. It's always about relative difficulty.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

    If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

    "I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

    Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

    Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

    Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).

    That probably won't happen. You see, @Shikaru.7618 is wrong in his assesment here. The rift is indeed caused by performance gap, but the gap itself is not a result of the game not preparing you for higher difficulty. Or rather, it is, but not in the way Shikaru thinks. The gap is caused by the combination of some of the core features of GW2 - specifically by freeform build system and action combat.

    Basically, in other games, the build/combat system is created in such a way, that impact of even the greatest gaps in skill and knowledge on your effectiveness are minimized. Those games will not let you make a really bad build, and will try to flatten the skill differences by putting more emphasis on gear.

    In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you can easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.

    So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to ever be addressed.

    You are ignoring the fact that if content gets harder veery slowly, people will get mechanically better eventually without feeling forced to. People only leave if they feel that the gap is to big. It's always about relative difficulty.

    People playing this game are not analytical. At no point will the player ask themselves hmm this fight is starting to get a little harder. What should I do differently? The game also doesnt do a good job of telling the player what they did wrong, only that they died. Without direction, people will simply get frustrated and quit because theres no natural path forward for them.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

    If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

    "I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

    Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

    Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

    Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).

    That probably won't happen. You see, @Shikaru.7618 is wrong in his assesment here. The rift is indeed caused by performance gap, but the gap itself is not a result of the game not preparing you for higher difficulty. Or rather, it is, but not in the way Shikaru thinks. The gap is caused by the combination of some of the core features of GW2 - specifically by freeform build system and action combat.

    Basically, in other games, the build/combat system is created in such a way, that impact of even the greatest gaps in skill and knowledge on your effectiveness are minimized. Those games will not let you make a really bad build, and will try to flatten the skill differences by putting more emphasis on gear.

    In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you can easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.

    So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to ever be addressed.

    You are ignoring the fact that if content gets harder veery slowly, people will get mechanically better eventually without feeling forced to. People only leave if they feel that the gap is to big. It's always about relative difficulty.

    People playing this game are not analytical. At no point will the player ask themselves hmm this fight is starting to get a little harder. What should I do differently? The game also doesnt do a good job of telling the player what they did wrong, only that they died. Without direction, people will simply get frustrated and quit because theres no natural path forward for them.

    It has nothing to with being analytical though. Do you think people improve from the beginning of the core game to the end?
    If you increase speed slightly reflexes will improve slowly. Ofcourse nobody can improve indefinitely.

    But saying gamedesign can't increase mechanical skill is just false.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    It has nothing to with being analytical though. Do you think people improve from the beginning of the core game to the end?
    If you increase speed slightly reflexes will improve slowly. Ofcourse nobody can improve indefinitely.

    Reflexes may increase (to a degree, which for many will still be heavily subpar), but it's just one of the many factors. They will still be running bad build, in a bad gear, doing a bad rotation, and running through it too slowly. Because the whole freeform build system is all about letting them do exactly that. And the whole system that rewards action skills is also based on the assumption that it rewards (a lot) those that are better than average.

    What's the point of a freeform system if everyone's running the same builds? What's the point of a system that rewards better skill if everyone gets rewarded equally? All those cases assume that there will be those below the average. And all those systems give massive benefits (and equally big penalties) to those that divert from average (either up or down).

    But saying gamedesign can't increase mechanical skill is just false.

    Oh, it can. But you'd need a different game design than GW2's in order for it to have impact on the whole game population, and not just a select few as it is now.

    I mean, seriously, even if you could use the increased system difficulty to make all players better, how much better could they get? I'd say that even 10% would have to be considered to be massive improvement. To get to that point, you;d probably ned to introduce content that would make a lot of players stop playing (like it originally happened with HoT). All for 10% increase, that in GW2 is peanuts. In order for it to matter, you'd need to make them increase by 200-300% minimum. And even that for many would not be enough (remember, the 10x disparity is not between top and bottom, but between top and average).
    That's something you won't ever get done just by gradual increases of difficulty.

    You can do that by minimizing the effect on effectiveness of:
    1. freeform build system - either by giving up on it and removing choice at all, or by making the difference in effectiveness between different choices much smaller
    2. gear stat sets - again, either by removing different sets, or minimizing the effect of stats they carry using some different means.
    3. rotations - You'd need to lessen the importance of order, speed and precision of skill activation (and managing of skill cooldowns) on the end result. There are probably several ways to do that, but they'd require some major changes to how things work currently.
    Notice, that all of those things need some reworks of the core systems of the game. Reworks that are probably way too big for a 7 year old game (with some that would probably be too big for any game that's outside of early beta). You might perhaps see some small changes in the third category, but both gear and build systems are likely what we'll have to live with till the game shuts down.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    It has nothing to with being analytical though. Do you think people improve from the beginning of the core game to the end?
    If you increase speed slightly reflexes will improve slowly. Ofcourse nobody can improve indefinitely.

    Reflexes may increase (to a degree, which for many will still be heavily subpar), but they will still be running bad build, in a bad gear, doing a bad rotation. Because the whole freeform build system is all about letting them do exactly that.

    Yes, and these are facets which are harder to change in the game. (build craft is difficult after all.)

    But we can look at options to improve specific facets (break bars, reaction speed, positioning etc)

    But saying gamedesign can't increase mechanical skill is just false.

    Oh, it can. But you'd need a different game design than GW2's.

    Wasn't that the point of this discussion, how is an increase of mechanical skill possible within gw2 broader design principles and why should we bother with it?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    Wasn't that the point of this discussion, how is an increase of mechanical skill possible within gw2 broader design principles and why should we bother with it?

    And that's my point - within current design principles we probably shouldn't bother, because the impact of what we could achieve without changing those principles would be at best minimal. And the price of achieving that minimal change might even end up being way too great for what we'd get.

    You can't realistically achieve any significant success without attacking some core design principles.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you can easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.
    So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to ever be addressed.

    Well they could start by removing all the trap stat combinations from the game that nobody in their right mind would ever use. Also, make sure the low level rewards are more appropriate. For example, in single stat gear only Power is a stat that's worth having, all the other single stats are worthless. The important factor to consider is that Power is overloaded in the game, it plays the most important role in dealing damage by a huge margin, having Power alone results in more overall damage than having both Precision and Ferocity of equal value, that's how strong it is. Therefore, gear stats that don't have Power will under-perform so badly that's even questionable why they exist in the game, as the "support" they provide isn't worth the trade off. With some very rare exceptions.

    Another part that is not easily visible for players is Precision, Condition Duration and Boon Duration. They are all worthless above 100% yet the game doesn't tell players that they've reached that point, or that they might reach it when playing with certain party buffs.

    There are ways to make the gearing aspect of the game better, it's at the very core of the game but I think it CAN be fixed.

    Edit:

    1. gear stat sets - again, either by removing different sets, or minimizing the effect of stats they carry using some different means.

    Should've read some more ^_^ yep gave some examples on this exact part. Changing the effects of stats isn't the way to go, removing bad stat combinations is.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    Yes, some spring cleaning of stat sets might be nice - though i'd say that most of the more extreme ones are actually useful somewhere (it's the hybrids that are the greatest trap). In the end we'd probably still need some more drastic changes to the gear stat set system (and stat system in general), as well as some standarizations of how the "allowed" sets should look like, so there's not so much disparity between them (i have some ideas for those, but this is not the thread for it).

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Should've read some more ^_^ yep gave some examples on this exact part. Changing the effects of stats isn't the way to go, removing bad stat combinations is.

    I think that the main problem isn't even the bad stat combinations. It's about how overpowered the good combinations are compared to everything else.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That alone wouldn't change much, there are also multiple design issues with some of the weapons sets which can't just be addressed by changing some numbers. Furthermore, there are some cases where your build doesn't affect your DPS at all. Take the Ancient Forgeman for example, all people would have to do to kill him is get into the tank, break this BB and spam 1. The NPCs even scream what you have to do but in public pugs most of the time > 50% of the party fails to do so. The issue here is that many people just don't care about changing up their preferred playstyle, becoming "better at the game" is just not something they care about and there is nothing that can be done about this except for fixing what can be fixed (even if it takes some effort to do so) and design content with the behavior of the target audience in mind.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:
    That alone wouldn't change much, there are also multiple design issues with some of the weapons sets which can't just be addressed by changing some numbers. Furthermore, there are some cases where your build doesn't affect your DPS at all. Take the Ancient Forgeman for example, all people would have to do to kill him is get into the tank, break this BB and spam 1. The NPCs even scream what you have to do but in public pugs most of the time > 50% of the party fails to do so. The issue here is that many people just don't care about changing up their preferred playstyle, becoming "better at the game" is just not something they care about and there is nothing that can be done about this except for fixing what can be fixed (even if it takes some effort to do so) and design content with the behavior of the target audience in mind.

    So you want to make the game dumber because you PUG with dumb people that don't want to be less dumb ?
    I do PUG this instance too and we always destroy the forgeman easily, so I can't agree with you that there are too many dumb people for the game to challenge players into becoming better.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    So you want to

    Don't make assertions and read again.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    So you want to

    Don't make assertions and read again.

    Since when a question is an assertion ?

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    So you want to

    Don't make assertions and read again.

    Since when a question is an assertion ?

    Your right, the first part of your sentence was not necessarily an assertion. But depending on how you read it you either have an assertion with an assumptive question or an assumptive question based on an assertion. Either way it's still a loaded question so what I said still applies.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Furthermore, there are some cases where your build doesn't affect your DPS at all. Take the Ancient Forgeman for example, all people would have to do to kill him is get into the tank, break this BB and spam 1. The NPCs even scream what you have to do but in public pugs most of the time > 50% of the party fails to do so.

    If all everyone'll do is jump into tank and spam 1, then the same thing happens, because the tank will get broken (and thus unable to be used until repaired... and then broken again right away) due to noone clearing adds. From you comment i can only assume you might have not noticed the group doing that for you, though.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Furthermore, there are some cases where your build doesn't affect your DPS at all. Take the Ancient Forgeman for example, all people would have to do to kill him is get into the tank, break this BB and spam 1. The NPCs even scream what you have to do but in public pugs most of the time > 50% of the party fails to do so.

    If all everyone'll do is jump into tank and spam 1, then the same thing happens, because the tank will get broken (and thus unable to be used until repaired... and then broken again right away) due to noone clearing adds. From you comment i can only assume you might have not noticed the group doing that for you, though.

    Add damage during that phase is pretty much neglectable unless no one was clearing adds beforehand at all. The main amount of damage the tank usualy takes comes from the Ancient Forgeman himself and if the ~3 "less casual" players you usually get would prepare to heal the tank before jumping into it then this wouldn't be an issue at all.

    Also GZ on ignoring the point and using baseless assumptions to be dismissive, from you of all people I would have expected better.