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Please stop asking LI for strike missions

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  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Furthermore, there are some cases where your build doesn't affect your DPS at all. Take the Ancient Forgeman for example, all people would have to do to kill him is get into the tank, break this BB and spam 1. The NPCs even scream what you have to do but in public pugs most of the time > 50% of the party fails to do so.

    If all everyone'll do is jump into tank and spam 1, then the same thing happens, because the tank will get broken (and thus unable to be used until repaired... and then broken again right away) due to noone clearing adds. From you comment i can only assume you might have not noticed the group doing that for you, though.

    Add damage during that phase is pretty much neglectable unless no one was clearing adds beforehand at all. The main amount of damage the tank usualy takes comes from the Ancient Forgeman himself and if the ~3 "less casual" players you usually get would prepare to heal the tank before jumping into it then this wouldn't be an issue at all.

    Also GZ on ignoring the point and using baseless assumptions to be dismissive, from you of all people I would have expected better.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Wasn't that the point of this discussion, how is an increase of mechanical skill possible within gw2 broader design principles and why should we bother with it?

    And that's my point - within current design principles we probably shouldn't bother, because the impact of what we could achieve without changing those principles would be at best minimal. And the price of achieving that minimal change might even end up being way too great for what we'd get.

    You can't realistically achieve any significant success without attacking some core design principles.

    Well then i'll have to disagree thing like dodging, positioning, breackbars, cc, etc. are perfectly possible to be improved in the present design.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Wasn't that the point of this discussion, how is an increase of mechanical skill possible within gw2 broader design principles and why should we bother with it?

    And that's my point - within current design principles we probably shouldn't bother, because the impact of what we could achieve without changing those principles would be at best minimal. And the price of achieving that minimal change might even end up being way too great for what we'd get.

    You can't realistically achieve any significant success without attacking some core design principles.

    Well then i'll have to disagree thing like dodging, positioning, breackbars, cc, etc. are perfectly possible to be improved in the present design.

    Sure, but that would not change the 10x dps disparity between top and average.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    The game also does not do very much> @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Wasn't that the point of this discussion, how is an increase of mechanical skill possible within gw2 broader design principles and why should we bother with it?

    And that's my point - within current design principles we probably shouldn't bother, because the impact of what we could achieve without changing those principles would be at best minimal. And the price of achieving that minimal change might even end up being way too great for what we'd get.

    You can't realistically achieve any significant success without attacking some core design principles.

    Well then i'll have to disagree thing like dodging, positioning, breackbars, cc, etc. are perfectly possible to be improved in the present design.

    Sure, but that would not change the 10x dps disparity between top and average.

    Heres a simple hypothetical example to illustrate this. Player a and player b are both dps on vale guardian. Blue teleport circles shows up underneath their feet.

    Player A takes two steps backwards without breaking their rotation. After the circle pops, they step back into position perfectly to ensure they dont get hit by seekers.

    Player b to ensure that they dont get teleported expends double dodges which puts them into range of incoming seekers. They then swap to shield to block incoming seeker damage and walk the full distance back to the group.

    Both players here have succeeded in doing the mechanics perfectly yet one is clearly better than the other. If you are player b, there isnt much the game gives you to let you know you're "failing" and would even take a very keen eye from an experienced player to pick out this inefficiency from logs. These kinds of things are really hard to teach people who are not familiar with the core concepts of action combat.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    The game also does not do very much> @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Wasn't that the point of this discussion, how is an increase of mechanical skill possible within gw2 broader design principles and why should we bother with it?

    And that's my point - within current design principles we probably shouldn't bother, because the impact of what we could achieve without changing those principles would be at best minimal. And the price of achieving that minimal change might even end up being way too great for what we'd get.

    You can't realistically achieve any significant success without attacking some core design principles.

    Well then i'll have to disagree thing like dodging, positioning, breackbars, cc, etc. are perfectly possible to be improved in the present design.

    Sure, but that would not change the 10x dps disparity between top and average.

    Heres a simple hypothetical example to illustrate this. Player a and player b are both dps on vale guardian. Blue teleport circles shows up underneath their feet.

    Player A takes two steps backwards without breaking their rotation. After the circle pops, they step back into position perfectly to ensure they dont get hit by seekers.

    Player b to ensure that they dont get teleported expends double dodges which puts them into range of incoming seekers. They then swap to shield to block incoming seeker damage and walk the full distance back to the group.

    Both players here have succeeded in doing the mechanics perfectly yet one is clearly better than the other. If you are player b, there isnt much the game gives you to let you know you're "failing" and would even take a very keen eye from an experienced player to pick out this inefficiency from logs. These kinds of things are really hard to teach people who are not familiar with the core concepts of action combat.

    People who ask for LI didn't become "good" in just one night. Some of us are raiding in GW since 2015. We took our time to learn basic mindset when joining any raid. It takes time and willingness to fill that gap. Simple avoiding mechanics in different ways does not cause 10x damage disparity. For the past 5 years I've seen many examples of DPS players being below healers. Some far greater than 10x. If you are not willing to fill that gap, there is nothing anyone can do to help those people. There is a sea of helpful guides available out there. They will get better if they want to. If those "raiders" are asking for for high requirements it's because they want people with similar mindset.
    You can make an argument that we can that ANet can try their best and provide ways for those kind of players to get better at the game, but if you read some of the forum comments you can notice that some players are offended by shear fact of even suggesting self-improvement. It cannot be helped. They have their right to stay that way. Just like people asking for LI in strike missions have their right to deny them entry into their own squads on their own rules.

  • @Yakez.7561 said:

    LI req is good. It motivates people to get better. If whole strike LFG would be LI groups people would start to raid and building community around it again. Joining strikes as tourists and making 0.5k dps is just awful.

    Strike Missions are intended to help casual players get into raiding, not the other way around.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    The game also does not do very much> @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Sure, but that would not change the 10x dps disparity between top and average.

    Heres a simple hypothetical example to illustrate this. Player a and player b are both dps on vale guardian. Blue teleport circles shows up underneath their feet.

    Player A takes two steps backwards without breaking their rotation. After the circle pops, they step back into position perfectly to ensure they dont get hit by seekers.

    Player b to ensure that they dont get teleported expends double dodges which puts them into range of incoming seekers. They then swap to shield to block incoming seeker damage and walk the full distance back to the group.

    Both players here have succeeded in doing the mechanics perfectly yet one is clearly better than the other. If you are player b, there isnt much the game gives you to let you know you're "failing" and would even take a very keen eye from an experienced player to pick out this inefficiency from logs. These kinds of things are really hard to teach people who are not familiar with the core concepts of action combat.

    Indeed, but, as i said, things like that might at best improve the dps by 10-20%. Or make that even as much as 50%. Which is important on the top end, but does nothing for the effectiveness disparity in the general population. Notice, that in your example both players are generally good enough to do raids already, which means they do probably posess the mentality to improve using out-of-game resources. And that they went to the point where they might consider such small things to be important improvements only because they were already using out-of-game resources to improve.

    In short, if you're doing 2k dps, things like you mentioned do not matter much at all. Even after you've perfected your mechanics, you'd still be doing 2.5-3k dps when others are doing 25k in the same situation. And that disparity is simply not something this game is capable of helping you with. Due to the game core design issues, you need to do it completely on your own.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    With the game gaining an even higher percentage of open-world-only players due to said requirements, the development would shift even further away from instanced content.

    These people will never understand that all they're accomplishing with their gatekeeping is making ALL development stop on any type of instanced content. They're basically self-defeating.

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    As long as players join groups and do 2-3k as a dps, I will keep putting requirements in my LFG.

    If they ever stop, I will make all welcome groups, but I dont have much hope of that happening.

    Anet had a chance to add recommended builds and gear sets when they added templates but they did not. Giving new players something to use would've helped a ton, as they'd be running a decent build and pulling at least 10k instead fo 2-3k.

    We understand. But why should we care.

    We can take players that are bad. Since they have no reason to learn, they will never improve (because we get the kill and we are taking them anyway). The content will be updated but it will never be fun for us because we are playing with bad players all the time.

    Or we can only take some players. Then the game will not be updated but we will have fun until the end.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @tim.4596 said:
    Asking li for strike missions, no matter which strike missions you're planning on doing just doesn't make sense. Strike missions are supposed to be an introduction to raid and not the other way around.

    I used to argue the same way not too long ago, and I still don't join LI request squads, because I don't meet those requirements (I've not raided often enough; of course, I could use 3rd party tools to fake the requirement, but I'd rather not).

    However, seeing how badly many average PvE players are doing in Strike Missions (standing in high-damage AoE and dying instead of stepping aside or dodging, being incapable of providing CC when needed, not dealing enough DPS, not listening to call-outs in chat, etc), even when you write "Know the mechanics!" or "exp players only" in LFG, I understand why some raid players prefer to play only with other raid players, because then they can be sure they won't have to deal with the frustration of having to do a Strike Mission over and over again due to their teammates acting so inept.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    so what we should ask ?
    AP ? make 30k+ ap ?
    100cm fractal kp ?
    some titles ? LHB, or fractal god? or ultimate dominator ?

    Plz don't say "nothing to ask". We have elite, this elite like dominate and pround themselfs, so we need some elite option.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    so what we should ask ?
    AP ? make 30k+ ap ?
    100cm fractal kp ?
    some titles ? LHB, or fractal god? or ultimate dominator ?

    Plz don't say "nothing to ask". We have elite, this elite like dominate and pround themselfs, so we need some elite option.

    ur the guy thats asking for fractal cms kp, and laugh from ppl asking for other requirements lmao. and than u do 5 healers boneskinner, eh

    Tim i agree with u, i usually do strikes without requirements, as we shouldnt lock content from ppl that starts to play. but sometimes im tired, want just a smooth run, and i ask for som requirements. as was told live and let live

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    However, seeing how badly many average PvE players are doing in Strike Missions (standing in high-damage AoE and dying instead of stepping aside or dodging, being incapable of providing CC when needed, not dealing enough DPS, not listening to call-outs in chat, etc), even when you write "Know the mechanics!" or "exp players only" in LFG, I understand why some raid players prefer to play only with other raid players, because then they can be sure they won't have to deal with the frustration of having to do a Strike Mission over and over again due to their teammates acting so inept.

    My "can't say I blame them" moments happen when someone struggles to actually get in the mission or fumbles a ready check or just doesnt read basic instructions like "click on the beacon on your map".
    How many times have I seen some squad member still in Lion's Arch when the last of my team is at the Shiverpeaks beacon and has been for 5 minutes?
    And you then ask them to join the team...and only then... after everyone's been waiting and you ask do they say "How do I get there?"
    Why didn't they ask immediately after joining?

    A good third of every open squad is absolutely functional dead weight. I've come to grips with this. I keep running "All Welcome" strikes despite it.

    But every time some jerk joins a squad without knowing what content they are queuing up for or how to access it, wasting the time of 9 other people instead of asking a simple question... I get that much closer to setting a bar for entry on my squads.
    It happens daily.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    These people will never understand that all they're accomplishing with their gatekeeping is making ALL development stop on any type of instanced content. They're basically self-defeating.

    Having multiple difficulty options could easily solve this kill proof situation.

    Possible for a company like Blizzard, where they have resources and steady revenue stream, but likely outside of what ANET can deliver at this point.. Do date, there are only 2 fractals that have true CM modes, and while they announced the new upcoming fractal will have a CM mode as well, it may way launch with WvW Alliances for all we know.

    And no, T2-T4 does not equal higher difficulty modes, since the only thing needed to enter T4 is a credit card to buy the materials necessary and get full ascended gear + 150 AR. (and judging by some of what I've seen in LFGs of late, that is definitely happening)

    ANET went the easy route (aka what they can afford) by adding a kill timer to Strikes, rewarding 'better' loot for those who kill it faster.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    i think there are 3 groups of players when it comes to instanced endgame content (heavily generalized, of course there are 'subgroups' in between):

    1. the dedicated players
      they realize instanced endgame content is not for everyone and that you need to be properly prepared.
      they will actively look for a training group, optimize their build, learn their rotation, watch guides, and be open to criticism from more experienced players.

    2. the naive players
      they think open world PvE already taught them everything they need to know.
      they will randomly join squads on their metabattle build and yellow soldiers gear, because this build was perfectly fine for all those events they did in the past.
      sometimes they dont read the chat, so even if the squad tries to explain something to them they simply dont realize it.
      or they do read the chat, but when they get called out or someone tries to explain something to them they get toxic, because they feel entitlted to 'play the game the way they want'.

    3. the leechers
      they are not actually interested in the content, they are only in it for the loot. need i say more??

    funny enough, those constantly complaining about the 'rediculous gatekeeping', 'stupid LI requirements' and 'toxic elitists' are usually either group 2 or 3.
    go figure.

    so where am i trying to go with this? where is the connection to strikes?
    i'll tell ya:
    strikes are for those players in group 1 who are not quite ready for raids yet. this way they can figure out new mechanics in a more casual environment and lower the learning curve between open world and endgame stuff like raids.
    strikes are not for those who think they can just jump into instanced content and play the same way they do in open world. if you are not willing to adapt for strikes, you will not do any better in raids. so in the end it all comes down to you and your attitude towards the content. stop blaming others! :smile:

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    But every time some jerk joins a squad without knowing what content they are queuing up for or how to access it, wasting the time of 9 other people instead of asking a simple question...

    That's as bad as ignoring the chat instructions: when someone doesn't have a clue but is too shy to ask. I gladly explain mechanics to players who have not played the content yet - but keeping quiet and ruining the run for everyone else is behavior that makes me furious.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @Hyrai.8720 said:
    i think there are 3 groups of players when it comes to instanced endgame content (heavily generalized, of course there are 'subgroups' in between):

    1. the dedicated players
      they realize instanced endgame content is not for everyone and that you need to be properly prepared.
      they will actively look for a training group, optimize their build, learn their rotation, watch guides, and be open to criticism from more experienced players.

    2. the naive players
      they think open world PvE already taught them everything they need to know.
      they will randomly join squads on their metabattle build and yellow soldiers gear, because this build was perfectly fine for all those events they did in the past.
      sometimes they dont read the chat, so even if the squad tries to explain something to them they simply dont realize it.
      or they do read the chat, but when they get called out or someone tries to explain something to them they get toxic, because they feel entitlted to 'play the game the way they want'.

    3. the leechers
      they are not actually interested in the content, they are only in it for the loot. need i say more??

    funny enough, those constantly complaining about the 'rediculous gatekeeping', 'stupid LI requirements' and 'toxic elitists' are usually either group 2 or 3.
    go figure.

    so where am i trying to go with this? where is the connection to strikes?
    i'll tell ya:
    strikes are for those players in group 1 who are not quite ready for raids yet. this way they can figure out new mechanics in a more casual environment and lower the learning curve between open world and endgame stuff like raids.
    strikes are not for those who think they can just jump into instanced content and play the same way they do in open world. if you are not willing to adapt for strikes, you will not do any better in raids. so in the end it all comes down to you and your attitude towards the content. stop blaming others! :smile:

    Pretty good summary of the situation. One could differentiate the groups into subgroups, and I probably wouldn't throw all players of 1 type into the same basket, but the general idea is correct:

    Strikes are meant to encourage players to become better to tackle more challenging content by introducing 10 player group content to everyone.

    The actual amount of game knowledge you can gain from strikes is minimal and far to little to allow a seem-less transition into raids. For that, traditional approaches are required and vast amount of outside of game knowledge (either via out of game sources or players who teach one in game). That's what most don't get. Playing strikes will NOT get you raid ready. It will at best get you raid interested and willing to improve and work on your game knowledge and ability.

    That's also the same reason why I personally, and others I know, objected to "easy" mode raids. The result there would have been the same or very similar to strikes.

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Indeed, but, as i said, things like that might at best improve the dps by 10-20%. Or make that even as much as 50%. Which is important on the top end, but does nothing for the effectiveness disparity in the general population. Notice, that in your example both players are generally good enough to do raids already, which means they do probably posess the mentality to improve using out-of-game resources. And that they went to the point where they might consider such small things to be important improvements only because they were already using out-of-game resources to improve.

    In short, if you're doing 2k dps, things like you mentioned do not matter much at all. Even after you've perfected your mechanics, you'd still be doing 2.5-3k dps when others are doing 25k in the same situation. And that disparity is simply not something this game is capable of helping you with. Due to the game core design issues, you need to do it completely on your own.

    I wouldn't underestimate how much dps you lose by disengaging from your target for any length of time, for any reason. A common reason for doing so unnecessarily is getting hit below 50% hp, double dodging away and kiting around until your heal skill is off cooldown.

    Your effective damage output will go to zero. You put yourself out of range of boon support so you don't have 25 might, fury, quickness when you re-engage. When I bench with and without boons, I can do about 15k/s on Power Weaver with no boons vs 31k/s with. So you can imagine the effect of dropping your dps uptime from 100% to 50% and then bursting with no boon support.

    Another major factor in your dps is the order of and time between skill activations, which can be a real problem if you haven't analysed your runs and adjusted your practice accordingly. It is even worse if you have a tendency to button mash when under pressure because many skills are a dps loss over auto and you should never use them.

    The order of skills matters because you are stacking damage multipliers so your total damage is far bigger than you would think by simply adding all the modifiers up. Some of your skill buttons have huge cast times which you interrupt while dodging unnecessarily and some have huge aftercasts which you don't cancel. Every other skill you let an auto 1 slip through and autos are typically only worth doing if you complete the entire chain in contiguous blocks because most of the damage is backloaded into auto 3.

    Now imagine being plagued by all these little problems and you get hit, panic and run away for 8 seconds until your heal skill comes off cooldown.

    Big dps numbers are entirely predicated on dps uptime being as close to 100% as possible with as little time between skill casts as possible, with as few skill interruptions as possible. I didn't realise this until I started logging with arcDPS and getting help interpreting the data.

    The one thing that made me realize this visually was seeing the player summary graph and simple rotation in Fallen[SC] 's arcDPS report for Power Weaver. His opening burst was 61k/s. Mine was 34k/s and I couldn't for the life of me understand why. After getting help analysing my logs, it turned out it was caused entirely by gaps in my skill queuing, which allowed auto 1s to slip in between skill buttons. He reached Fireform in 3.4 seconds. It took me 6.1 seconds. We did more or less the same amount of damage when we hit but he had pressed almost twice as many buttons as I did in the burst window. This is why his rate of damage at this point in rotation is twice as high.

    In game you don't think about the time cost in seconds and milliseconds for every action you perform. This is something you can only look at from a data centric perspective and identify bad trends which you then have to unlearn. Without analytics, you can easily habituate a playstyle where the time cost of your actions is something you are never aware of. And so people look to infusions, food buffs, ascended gear or some other reason that seems like it explains the difference.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    By the time a group with LI and specific role requirements fills up we are probably already 1/2 done.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are people who would rather wait and have a smooth run rather than go ahead with the potential of having a terrible run.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    The one thing that made me realize this visually was seeing the player summary graph and simple rotation in Fallen[SC] 's arcDPS report for Power Weaver. His opening burst was 61k/s. Mine was 34k/s and I couldn't for the life of me understand why. After getting help analysing my logs, it turned out it was caused entirely by gaps in my skill queuing, which allowed auto 1s to slip in between skill buttons. He reached Fireform in 3.4 seconds. It took me 6.1 seconds. We did more or less the same amount of damage when we hit but he had pressed almost twice as many buttons as I did in the burst window. This is why his rate of damage at this point in rotation is twice as high.

    In game you don't think about the time cost in seconds and milliseconds for every action you perform. This is something you can only look at from a data centric perspective and identify bad trends which you then have to unlearn. Without analytics, you can easily habituate a playstyle where the time cost of your actions is something you are never aware of. And so people look to infusions, food buffs, ascended gear or some other reason that seems like it explains the difference.

    Isn't that exactly the point i was making? Those are things that game can't teach you. I mean, how can the game teach you to optimize the rotation to the milisecond, when it doesn't even know what that rotation is?

    So, the amount of things this game could possibly teach you, and the improvements you could make due to this is very limited. If you want to make any real improvements, you need to use resources that the game simply cannot provide to you. And it cannot provide them due to how those game systems are designed.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vornollo.5182 said:
    I don't generally do PvE, but this reminds me a bit of what happens in WvW squads sometimes where you "have to do this/that, runs such/so build" etc.
    My opinion?
    Make your own LFG for like-minded people. The small amount of time spent on the forum seems to indicate there's so many of the kind of players who think just like you.
    If I ever feel like doing Fractals but can't find a T4 group that's looking for what I play: I make my own LFG.
    Squad in WvW doesn't want me as a Thief main..? Well, kitten them I'll do my own thing.
    You are as much entitled to these demands not to do it, as they are to do demand them, lol.

    Also, there's clearly a difference... If I run around in WvW with my guild (private tag, because no we don't want you around us) and we're about to jump into a 15v30 fight, but some pug comes around in our smokefields and gives our advantage away, yeah that's a good way for that 1 pug to spoil the fun of 15 others.
    Same thing for PvE I'd figure. You want people who know what they do, understandable, carrying dead weight is heavy work.
    You're fine with casuals who just want to have fun in their own way, understandable too.

    You do you, nothing's stopping you in any part of this game to do what you want to do, the tools are there.

    GW2 is really not a hard game (if you're not trying to reach the top 0.1%), with a bit of explanation, most people can perform very well. I'd just wish more players would be willing to give noobs a chance to learn, and teach them. Training groups can be tedious, and Guilds can be slow to form a group.

    To be fair, I'm not really sure what to write anymore on this topic, especially after reading all those comments. Whilst I do think that no li should be asked for strike as they are really not that difficult, I also understand players valuing their time. However GW2 is a game, and a game is made to be enjoyed, if you really value your time, I'd say just have a static for everything (raids, fractals, and even strikes), that way you can run whatever you want, and have extremely performing players.

    I still remain strong on the idea that new players should be allowed in pug parties, and that inviting more players to discover strikes will get those player to try out raids, and hopefully more raids will be released. A few weeks ago was actually the 1 year anniversary of "NO NEW RAID".

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Vornollo.5182 said:
    I don't generally do PvE, but this reminds me a bit of what happens in WvW squads sometimes where you "have to do this/that, runs such/so build" etc.
    My opinion?
    Make your own LFG for like-minded people. The small amount of time spent on the forum seems to indicate there's so many of the kind of players who think just like you.
    If I ever feel like doing Fractals but can't find a T4 group that's looking for what I play: I make my own LFG.
    Squad in WvW doesn't want me as a Thief main..? Well, kitten them I'll do my own thing.
    You are as much entitled to these demands not to do it, as they are to do demand them, lol.

    Also, there's clearly a difference... If I run around in WvW with my guild (private tag, because no we don't want you around us) and we're about to jump into a 15v30 fight, but some pug comes around in our smokefields and gives our advantage away, yeah that's a good way for that 1 pug to spoil the fun of 15 others.
    Same thing for PvE I'd figure. You want people who know what they do, understandable, carrying dead weight is heavy work.
    You're fine with casuals who just want to have fun in their own way, understandable too.

    You do you, nothing's stopping you in any part of this game to do what you want to do, the tools are there.

    GW2 is really not a hard game (if you're not trying to reach the top 0.1%), with a bit of explanation, most people can perform very well. I'd just wish more players would be willing to give noobs a chance to learn, and teach them. Training groups can be tedious, and Guilds can be slow to form a group.

    To be fair, I'm not really sure what to write anymore on this topic, especially after reading all those comments. Whilst I do think that no li should be asked for strike as they are really not that difficult, I also understand players valuing their time. However GW2 is a game, and a game is made to be enjoyed, if you really value your time, I'd say just have a static for everything (raids, fractals, and even strikes), that way you can run whatever you want, and have extremely performing players.

    I still remain strong on the idea that new players should be allowed in pug parties, and that inviting more players to discover strikes will get those player to try out raids, and hopefully more raids will be released. A few weeks ago was actually the 1 year anniversary of "NO NEW RAID".

    Yes, gw2 isnt that dificult. But the problem is same as this:
    Try to teach a child that just went to kindergarden for the first time solving linear equasions in less then 10 minutes.
    The problem is not that the game is hard. Its the oposite. The game is so easy that most players are not able to do even the basics required. You cannot teach that in 5 minutes before raid/strike/fractal/dungeon...

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:
    To be fair, I'm not really sure what to write anymore on this topic, especially after reading all those comments. Whilst I do think that no li should be asked for strike as they are really not that difficult, I also understand players valuing their time. However GW2 is a game, and a game is made to be enjoyed, if you really value your time, I'd say just have a static for everything (raids, fractals, and even strikes), that way you can run whatever you want, and have extremely performing players.

    Why is it wrong to use the LFG for "extremely performing players"?
    Why is the only other solution you offer to get a static?
    Isn't it just simpler to continue to allow people to use the LFG?

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    Make your own group.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

    If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

    "I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

    But those "kewl kids" happens due the lamest class design game has/had aand awfull skill balance >_>, if classes were putted trough more thinking we could have more kewl kids playing whathever they want and having decent setuups to raid rather than gimmicks and find glitches to make the raids.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    You are ignoring the fact that if content gets harder veery slowly, people will get mechanically better eventually without feeling forced to. People only leave if they feel that the gap is to big. It's always about relative difficulty.

    Giving new players an insta-80 item won't help them learn if content gradually becomes more difficult from level one.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We always look at this problem from one perspective. Let us switch the roles for once:

    • We start a LFG with "relaxed run, starters, no rush, no skip, NO RAIDERS OR FARMERS"
    • Once the party/squad gets filled, ask for LI and other raid related KP and then kick those people who have it

    Would you consider that a toxic behavior and unfair treatment?
    Would you rather be judged by your skill, experience and behavior than just kicked due to some prejudices?
    Would you consider reporting a person who does this?
    Would you consider lying about the questions from the party/squad leader, to stay in the group? Just not linking any of your KP/LI although you stack it in your inventory?
    Would you start an argument with the leader of the group after getting kicked? Telling your KP/LI say nothing about your behavior in the group?
    Would you complain about such an experience in your guild/discord or even on the forums?

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Here's another perspective:
    Why is nobody making a squad this way?
    Why aren't you doing it?

    I intend to. Just would like to hear your feedback first.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    We always look at this problem from one perspective. Let us switch the roles for once:

    • We start a LFG with "relaxed run, starters, no rush, no skip, NO RAIDERS OR FARMERS"
    • Once the party/squad gets filled, ask for LI and other raid related KP and then kick those people who have it

    Would you consider that a toxic behavior and unfair treatment?
    Would you rather be judged by your skill, experience and behavior than just kicked due to some prejudices?
    Would you consider reporting a person who does this?
    Would you consider lying about the questions from the party/squad leader, to stay in the group? Just not linking any of your KP/LI although you stack it in your inventory?
    Would you start an argument with the leader of the group after getting kicked? Telling your KP/LI say nothing about your behavior in the group?
    Would you complain about such an experience in your guild/discord or even on the forums?

    No arguments from me. You clearly state the group requirements and as someone who does not fit those requirements, it would be my bad if I tried to force my way in. I would simply make an LI only group to play with like minded players.

  • LONGA.1652LONGA.1652 Member ✭✭

    Nothing like getting a bearbow base ranger on whisper of Jormag run. That one of a few kick when you see someone repeatedly make mistake and realise they just come in with open world build despite we already have build template.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

    • We start a LFG with "relaxed run, starters, no rush, no skip, NO RAIDERS OR FARMERS"
    • Once the party/squad gets filled, ask for LI and other raid related KP and then kick those people who have it

    Well those that will get kicked by that have more serious issues, like reading comprehension problems, if they join a team specifically asking for no raiders and then they ping their LI/KP it's their own fault for getting kicked. Other than that, it's as simple as joining and not pinging LI/KP even if you have it. Problem solved

    Would you consider lying about the questions from the party/squad leader, to stay in the group? Just not linking any of your KP/LI although you stack it in your inventory?

    Why would the leader care if someone has LI/KP?

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

    • We start a LFG with "relaxed run, starters, no rush, no skip, NO RAIDERS OR FARMERS"
    • Once the party/squad gets filled, ask for LI and other raid related KP and then kick those people who have it

    Well those that will get kicked by that have more serious issues, like reading comprehension problems, if they join a team specifically asking for no raiders and then they ping their LI/KP it's their own fault for getting kicked. Other than that, it's as simple as joining and not pinging LI/KP even if you have it. Problem solved

    Would you consider lying about the questions from the party/squad leader, to stay in the group? Just not linking any of your KP/LI although you stack it in your inventory?

    Why would the leader care if someone has LI/KP?

    I dont think the reason matters. It could be because they want to players that dont care about builds and/or make a fuss about dps. Whatever the reasoning may be, they have a right to make that group and remove people from it if joiners dont meet said conditions. No matter how silly it sounds they have a right to do it as it doesnt break tos.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I dont think the reason matters. It could be because they want to players that dont care about builds and/or make a fuss about dps. Whatever the reasoning may be, they have a right to make that group and remove people from it if joiners dont meet said conditions. No matter how silly it sounds they have a right to do it as it doesnt break tos.

    Wait. You mean a person that has KP/LI cannot play without caring about builds and dps? News to me, is KP/LI a contagious virus that forces a player to play in a specific way? It's not like you can enforce it anyway, it takes only a bit of intelligence to simply not ping KP/LI if you join such a group, when the requirement is NOT to ping something it's by default filled. They have the right to make any group they want, it's just that the part of "don't have KP/LI" cannot be enforced

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sad to see that after years of that issue, the problem hasn't evolved, but merely expanded. I've decided to simply run with only people I know. Dont need LI or KP then. Maybe those who ask for such things simply dont know enough people :/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naxos.2503 said:
    Maybe those who ask for such things simply dont know enough people :/

    In general, people are pugging only if they don't know enough people they could run the content with (at this specific time). It's the same whether they ask for LI or not.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I dont think the reason matters. It could be because they want to players that dont care about builds and/or make a fuss about dps. Whatever the reasoning may be, they have a right to make that group and remove people from it if joiners dont meet said conditions. No matter how silly it sounds they have a right to do it as it doesnt break tos.

    Wait. You mean a person that has KP/LI cannot play without caring about builds and dps? News to me, is KP/LI a contagious virus that forces a player to play in a specific way? It's not like you can enforce it anyway, it takes only a bit of intelligence to simply not ping KP/LI if you join such a group, when the requirement is NOT to ping something it's by default filled. They have the right to make any group they want, it's just that the part of "don't have KP/LI" cannot be enforced

    You're right it's near impossible to enforce. No arguments from me on the lack of logical soundness of this type of group. However it's still their right to make such a group and remove anyone that doesnt fit the conditions, assuming anyone is dumb enough to actually ping.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I dont think the reason matters. It could be because they want to players that dont care about builds and/or make a fuss about dps. Whatever the reasoning may be, they have a right to make that group and remove people from it if joiners dont meet said conditions. No matter how silly it sounds they have a right to do it as it doesnt break tos.

    Wait. You mean a person that has KP/LI cannot play without caring about builds and dps? News to me, is KP/LI a contagious virus that forces a player to play in a specific way? It's not like you can enforce it anyway, it takes only a bit of intelligence to simply not ping KP/LI if you join such a group, when the requirement is NOT to ping something it's by default filled. They have the right to make any group they want, it's just that the part of "don't have KP/LI" cannot be enforced

    You're right it's near impossible to enforce. No arguments from me on the lack of logical soundness of this type of group. However it's still their right to make such a group and remove anyone that doesnt fit the conditions, assuming anyone is dumb enough to actually ping.

    Of course. It doesn't matter whether the requirements are ridiculous or reasonable, all should be adhered to equally. If you don't like one, don't join.

    The raid/strike LFG requirements are not, and never were a real problem. If someone doesn't like them, they should rather start complaining about the content that makes them seem reasonable to at least some players.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    We always look at this problem from one perspective. Let us switch the roles for once:

    • We start a LFG with "relaxed run, starters, no rush, no skip, NO RAIDERS OR FARMERS"
    • Once the party/squad gets filled, ask for LI and other raid related KP and then kick those people who have it

    Non raiders won't have Kp/Li to link. But for those who joined, its best to inform them to leave/kick the moment they joined than wait till the party is filled. Wasting each others time and getting their hopes up, which may cause displease :sweat_smile:.

    Would you consider that a toxic behavior and unfair treatment?

    No, if there's a valid reason. As stated "No raiders" (slightly misleading/easily missed). Might vary depending on player(s) and consequences if not handled properly. There is also the issue of sooner or later, everyone in the group will earn Li; what then? :sweat_smile:

    Would you rather be judged by your skill, experience and behavior than just kicked due to some prejudices?

    The first. But its what comes after that matters, usually.

    Would you consider reporting a person who does this?

    Unlikely, but providing the reason for it would help. Mostly due to miscommunication, slightly misleading or didn't read LFG properly.

    Would you consider lying about the questions from the party/squad leader, to stay in the group? Just not linking any of your KP/LI although you stack it in your inventory?
    Would you start an argument with the leader of the group after getting kicked? Telling your KP/LI say nothing about your behavior in the group?

    No. If there's conflict, preferred it to be settled and done with, beforehand. Imagine it will feel unsettling for the entire process, no thank you.

    Would you complain about such an experience in your guild/discord or even on the forums?

    Might be brought up as a discussion among friends and guildies to share their views on it. No reason not to(some might find it weird, but could be norm nothing to be ashamed of) and sharing information with them to be prepared(if encounter such group).

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭

    @Maat.3940 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Asking li for strike missions, no matter which strike missions you're planning on doing just doesn't make sense. Strike missions are supposed to be an introduction to raid and not the other way around.

    It's damaging for both party.

    It's either gonna continue to split the community in two between those who can do "harder" strike missions and those who can do "easier" strike missions, and as we saw with both fractals and raids, that content is just gonna be non-existent in the long run.

    So no matter how much longer you take to clear Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag with a random group, just don't ask for LI. If you also know what you're doing as a commander there is no scenario in which you can't adapt to the situation, a good team comp should make up for whatever group you have. And low damage just means you won't get gold at the end of the strike.

    I can understand the frustration of how much time it might take if you don't ask for LI but, if you value your time then just go with a group full of guildies.

    The latest that just got released on Tuesday with the new episode is another "easy mode" strike, and if this continues strike is gonna go back to shiver peak level.

    No, Tim! I want to get them done with people who know how to dodge. I do not want to spend 1hour or an eternity teaching people who are well in their masteries that there is such a thing as dodging red AOE. I learned how to dodge 4 years ago when I started this game. I had 0 hold handing. I just was very interested in the game and how I could improve and I did. Got into a raid guild, tested with beginners, learned raids, and then found a static, then another one. And now I am at a place where I can dodge red AOEs and perform normally in general content. Nobody taught me anything until I put in the time and willingness and the research. I watched clips of various raids bosses to prepare myself for the mechanics. I deserve to have it easier. I deserve to select the people I play with. And its my experience. It doesn't need to be yours. It's all good. Do you do that? Do you put in the time to learn? Or just come here on the forum to complain? LI requirements in groups doesn't prevent you from learning at your own pace, from playing the game the way you want to. It's all fine. But I am in charge of my game experience. Not you. I don't believe it's the game design that turns people away from harder content. It's the people complaining about things that they are not willing to learn. What exactly is your problem with raiders? They are not cool kids, nobody is here, really. I met great kind raiders, and I met toxic raiders. And I chose to continue with the groups that suited me. I learned fractals, cuz I was interested in more in learning the game than complaining that people were asking for KPs when I had none. Ofc the community is split between skill levels. Why would that even be a problem!? Why are you making into a problem. Not everyone is willing to put in the time to get mechanically good in a game. And why should they. It's a personal choice. Respect that!

    "So no matter how much longer you take to clear Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag with a random group, just don't ask for LI." I believe you have quite the nerve to ask me how I should spend my time in the game, how much and with whom. Make your own groups and enjoy this game at the pace and level you want to. Nothing wrong with that.

    Yes, I've sadly realised after writing this post and reading most comments, that people are entitled to value their time and thus only want to do strikes with LI group.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Antioche.7034 said:
    Please stop blaming on the community what is caused by the bad construction of the game.

    Why are you asking to players that only wish to clear bosses decently and if possible quickly, to take by the hand and teach newer players, people that will mostly not listen anyway ? Playing this game isn't a job, it's a leisure. Don't try to force people into doing stuff that they aren't here for.

    The people whose jobs it is to make the progression smooth so that players learn to play and access content are the devs, not the other players. Some of the playerbase are actually taking time to teach and stuff (Raid-teaching guilds and communities etc), but that is merely something that they are kind enough to do on their free time.
    So leave the people who want to play with others of similar level to have decent kills to their LFGs, and if that is not what you seek, do respect them and do not click to join their groups. It's as simple as that.

    It's not because /you/ only want to clear things and do not care how much time it takes and how the kill is performed that your standards applies to all players. Some people don't have much time to play, other players would rather restart the boss if the kill isn't clean enough because they like when it's well done, etc ...

    People seem to believe "Elitists" hate new players, but the truth is that most "Elitists" only dislike people that lie, fake stuff to get in the groups, do not ever try to learn anything and generally believe that other players are there solely to carry them into the content without doing any efforts.

    Most people I know would be happy to answer questions or even take time to help someone at the golem or on gearing and build advices provided they are asked politely in PMs and know the answers. Aslong as people are genuinly motivated to learn, content isn't hard to get into. It might be a tad long, but it isn't at all if you compare it with gearing time and stuff like that on other MMOs.

    Exactly that. If someone asks I will take time to explain. But I dont want to carry someone who doesnt try.

  • Maat.3940Maat.3940 Member ✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Maat.3940 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Asking li for strike missions, no matter which strike missions you're planning on doing just doesn't make sense. Strike missions are supposed to be an introduction to raid and not the other way around.

    It's damaging for both party.

    It's either gonna continue to split the community in two between those who can do "harder" strike missions and those who can do "easier" strike missions, and as we saw with both fractals and raids, that content is just gonna be non-existent in the long run.

    So no matter how much longer you take to clear Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag with a random group, just don't ask for LI. If you also know what you're doing as a commander there is no scenario in which you can't adapt to the situation, a good team comp should make up for whatever group you have. And low damage just means you won't get gold at the end of the strike.

    I can understand the frustration of how much time it might take if you don't ask for LI but, if you value your time then just go with a group full of guildies.

    The latest that just got released on Tuesday with the new episode is another "easy mode" strike, and if this continues strike is gonna go back to shiver peak level.

    No, Tim! I want to get them done with people who know how to dodge. I do not want to spend 1hour or an eternity teaching people who are well in their masteries that there is such a thing as dodging red AOE. I learned how to dodge 4 years ago when I started this game. I had 0 hold handing. I just was very interested in the game and how I could improve and I did. Got into a raid guild, tested with beginners, learned raids, and then found a static, then another one. And now I am at a place where I can dodge red AOEs and perform normally in general content. Nobody taught me anything until I put in the time and willingness and the research. I watched clips of various raids bosses to prepare myself for the mechanics. I deserve to have it easier. I deserve to select the people I play with. And its my experience. It doesn't need to be yours. It's all good. Do you do that? Do you put in the time to learn? Or just come here on the forum to complain? LI requirements in groups doesn't prevent you from learning at your own pace, from playing the game the way you want to. It's all fine. But I am in charge of my game experience. Not you. I don't believe it's the game design that turns people away from harder content. It's the people complaining about things that they are not willing to learn. What exactly is your problem with raiders? They are not cool kids, nobody is here, really. I met great kind raiders, and I met toxic raiders. And I chose to continue with the groups that suited me. I learned fractals, cuz I was interested in more in learning the game than complaining that people were asking for KPs when I had none. Ofc the community is split between skill levels. Why would that even be a problem!? Why are you making into a problem. Not everyone is willing to put in the time to get mechanically good in a game. And why should they. It's a personal choice. Respect that!

    "So no matter how much longer you take to clear Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag with a random group, just don't ask for LI." I believe you have quite the nerve to ask me how I should spend my time in the game, how much and with whom. Make your own groups and enjoy this game at the pace and level you want to. Nothing wrong with that.

    Yes, I've sadly realised after writing this post and reading most comments, that people are entitled to value their time and thus only want to do strikes with LI group.

    It's ok! I think it's just important to enjoy our time in the game the way we can. <3