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  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Imagine thinking that the Charr were ever even 1/4th as honorable as World of Warcraft orcs, or that their society was strong after going on a thousand year losing streak via infighting before only winning the land back by pledging themselves to a demonic dark god of their own will and desperation.

    Imagine.

    The charr are far more honorable then the Orcs will ever be in warcraft.

    The charr don't lie about what they are. The orcs will act reformed but they've shown they will follow obviously evil, vicious leaders without real complaint from the majority. They've done so repeatedly.

    I point you to Rytlock saying 'We've changed' to Gwen Thackery and receiving, rather pointedly, the reply: 'So you keep telling me.'

    There are orcs, like the Frostwolves, who genuinely reformed and had done so for decades. They do not try to justify their past, despite having more reason to considering they were corrupted by demonic magic to do things out of their control, while the Charr did everything of their own choice. The Legions not only excuse their behavior as 'defending their ancestral homeland', which, mind you, they stole from the Grawl and Dwarves. But also avoid any attempt to change, to the point where we wind up with our current situation.

    Heck, the Iron Legion has an entire history full of lies, a state sanctioned interpretation of events that's fed to every cub. Not only do they lie, but they make lies their stock and trade, it's why Smodurs actions are completely unsurprising. Like, it's not even a contest. The Orcs did far more to be better people then the Legions ever did.

    The Charr actually did change from GW1 to GW2. The Charr in GW2 are much more civilized.

    The Orcs however, "changed". The Garrosh came along and they gladly followed him into war and destruction. Then they "Changed" again... until Sylvanas came along and they gladly marched to Genocide and conquest. They repeatedly, and massively fall back into evil to the point I have said and heard it said "The Orcs are either evil at the core, or so dumb they are easily manipulated into it." Sure they don't try to Justify it, but the orcs that object to the evil leaders are the extreme minority. Sylvanas led them to commiting genocide, killing prisoners and outright war. One orc objected to it after the Genocide publicly. It's shown, hell even outright started that the Majority of them think Sylvanas was doing a great job in the middle/late period of the war.

    The Charr helped heal and maintain Ascalon, they do talk about Ancestral homeland, but it's important to remember that they had been in the area for a bit and suddenly got kicked out by humans, who continued to harass them from time to time (and killed the Khan-Ur). The Charr took Ascalon back, set up camp and started rebuilding. Iron Legion held out the hand of peace to humanity first, but pirates ruined it all. There is change, subtle change, but the current situation is because of Blood Legions hardcore hateful old timers. Smodur has his issues but he saw peace with humanity was a way forward. Bangar was stuck in the past.

    The Charr fudge the history of the stormcaller horn/battle of Rin, yes. But at the very same time you go down into the ruins and outright see CHARR researching and investigating the ruins, outright saying the version of the story they tell is a twisted take (probably from Flame Legion as they were in charge at the time).

    Charr: Signs military treaty/goes into war alongside a person they don't like but the other guy is worse. They fight side by side until at least the big threat is over. Usually end up being friendly.
    Orcs: Marches to war alongside the Alliance against the undead lich king, a massive threat. Gleeful runs to the boss to report how their scouting squad found a group of humans pinned down by scourge forces, and so the orcs attacked the human rear-line! The attack was a complete success because the humans were wiped out, even though the surging undead destroyed the orc force as well and raised everybody as undead.

    I've long made the comparison that the Charr actually use their brains. They will set aside issues until the greater threat is dealt with, and if they become friends afterwards? They accept that. Orcs have shown a tendency to attack humans even if there is a bigger threat nearby, and even after constantly working alongside humanity against big bads they continue to hate them and want to return to war.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    The orcs have been in Azeroth for less than 35 years. How many hundreds of years did the charr have for their "change" versus the orcs?

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Imagine thinking that the Charr were ever even 1/4th as honorable as World of Warcraft orcs, or that their society was strong after going on a thousand year losing streak via infighting before only winning the land back by pledging themselves to a demonic dark god of their own will and desperation.

    Imagine.

    The charr are far more honorable then the Orcs will ever be in warcraft.

    The charr don't lie about what they are. The orcs will act reformed but they've shown they will follow obviously evil, vicious leaders without real complaint from the majority. They've done so repeatedly.

    I point you to Rytlock saying 'We've changed' to Gwen Thackery and receiving, rather pointedly, the reply: 'So you keep telling me.'

    There are orcs, like the Frostwolves, who genuinely reformed and had done so for decades. They do not try to justify their past, despite having more reason to considering they were corrupted by demonic magic to do things out of their control, while the Charr did everything of their own choice. The Legions not only excuse their behavior as 'defending their ancestral homeland', which, mind you, they stole from the Grawl and Dwarves. But also avoid any attempt to change, to the point where we wind up with our current situation.

    Heck, the Iron Legion has an entire history full of lies, a state sanctioned interpretation of events that's fed to every cub. Not only do they lie, but they make lies their stock and trade, it's why Smodurs actions are completely unsurprising. Like, it's not even a contest. The Orcs did far more to be better people then the Legions ever did.

    The Charr actually did change from GW1 to GW2. The Charr in GW2 are much more civilized.

    The Orcs however, "changed". The Garrosh came along and they gladly followed him into war and destruction. Then they "Changed" again... until Sylvanas came along and they gladly marched to Genocide and conquest. They repeatedly, and massively fall back into evil to the point I have said and heard it said "The Orcs are either evil at the core, or so dumb they are easily manipulated into it." Sure they don't try to Justify it, but the orcs that object to the evil leaders are the extreme minority. Sylvanas led them to commiting genocide, killing prisoners and outright war. One orc objected to it after the Genocide publicly. It's shown, hell even outright started that the Majority of them think Sylvanas was doing a great job in the middle/late period of the war.

    The Charr helped heal and maintain Ascalon, they do talk about Ancestral homeland, but it's important to remember that they had been in the area for a bit and suddenly got kicked out by humans, who continued to harass them from time to time (and killed the Khan-Ur). The Charr took Ascalon back, set up camp and started rebuilding. Iron Legion held out the hand of peace to humanity first, but pirates ruined it all. There is change, subtle change, but the current situation is because of Blood Legions hardcore hateful old timers. Smodur has his issues but he saw peace with humanity was a way forward. Bangar was stuck in the past.

    The Charr fudge the history of the stormcaller horn/battle of Rin, yes. But at the very same time you go down into the ruins and outright see CHARR researching and investigating the ruins, outright saying the version of the story they tell is a twisted take (probably from Flame Legion as they were in charge at the time).

    Charr: Signs military treaty/goes into war alongside a person they don't like but the other guy is worse. They fight side by side until at least the big threat is over. Usually end up being friendly.
    Orcs: Marches to war alongside the Alliance against the undead lich king, a massive threat. Gleeful runs to the boss to report how their scouting squad found a group of humans pinned down by scourge forces, and so the orcs attacked the human rear-line! The attack was a complete success because the humans were wiped out, even though the surging undead destroyed the orc force as well and raised everybody as undead.

    I've long made the comparison that the Charr actually use their brains. They will set aside issues until the greater threat is dealt with, and if they become friends afterwards? They accept that. Orcs have shown a tendency to attack humans even if there is a bigger threat nearby, and even after constantly working alongside humanity against big bads they continue to hate them and want to return to war.

    That is a heavily skewed version of events in both games, in each instance you had more orcs questioning Garrosh and Sylvanas's actions then you ever had Charr doing the same for the Flame Legions tactics against humans or even each other. They discard evil because it ceases to be useful, not out of any moral compunction, it is only with Malice and Crecia as well as cultural diffusion with individuals like Rytlock that they have finally started to question the old ways. Nor have the Charr ever cared about healing Ascalon, it's their land to despoil in however they see fit, it's why the Khan Ur wanted to slash and burn it in his retreat just like the Flame Shamans burned it in the Searing. Olmakhan going out of their way to revere nature is explicitly and exception to the rule.

    The priory can research all it wants and some Charr can search to find the truth, but do you think it matters to that society when the state sanctioned history is so useful? You don't give an 'official' version of history unless you want to discredit all other interpretations. If this event is any indication it's that the Charr don't l know what to do with peace and will revert to war with their society setup the way it is, and even the 'progressives' like Smodur are not good people. Nor are they intelligent pragmatists, the way that he's executing his deserts left and right does nothing but flood the Dominion with even more defectors. But it's not new, Smodur has always made a spectacle of killing those he deemed traitors in the core game, now it's just in our face.

    And i'm not saying the Orcs are more well written, they are written terribly in comparison to the Charr, but even when Thrall is a walking fountain of hypocrisy he has more moral integrity then the average Imperator has on a good day.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    That is a heavily skewed version of events in both games, in each instance you had more orcs questioning Garrosh and Sylvanas's actions then you ever had Charr doing the same for the Flame Legions tactics against humans or even each other. They discard evil because it ceases to be useful, not out of any moral compunction, it is only with Malice and Crecia as well as cultural diffusion with individuals like Rytlock that they have finally started to question the old ways. Nor have the Charr ever cared about healing Ascalon, it's their land to despoil in however they see fit, it's why the Khan Ur wanted to slash and burn it in his retreat just like the Flame Shamans burned it in the Searing. Olmakhan going out of their way to revere nature is explicitly and exception to the rule.

    You mean the trolls and Tauren who questioned Garrosh, since the orcs mostly supported him? Or the literally stated fact from horde leadership that Sylvanas had the majority support and approval of all the horde races, in battle for Azeroth? To the point that if she hadn't ranted and screamed at her own forces, she could've kept the war going? The Charr changed, the Orcs have never changed. They talk about change but they have zero problems following a hostile leader into war and conquest, burning and killing everything in their way.

    I don't suppose you ever, at all did those slew of events based around Iron legion cleaning up tar out of the lakes and waterways from the (then hostile) flame legion? Or the functional farms and other areas? Did you see that large farm near the blood keep at Grothmar? The Charr have helped heal the land from it's GW1 days, and actively do work to keep the water-ways clean of tar and other contaminants.

    The Olmakhan revering nature is a change to their former ways, and a different way of life compared to the legions. It doesn't say the Charr care nothing about the land they live on.

    The priory can research all it wants and some Charr can search to find the truth, but do you think it matters to that society when the state sanctioned history is so useful? You don't give an 'official' version of history unless you want to discredit all other interpretations. If this event is any indication it's that the Charr don't l know what to do with peace and will revert to war with their society setup the way it is, and even the 'progressives' like Smodur are not good people. Nor are they intelligent pragmatists, the way that he's executing his deserts left and right does nothing but flood the Dominion with even more defectors. But it's not new, Smodur has always made a spectacle of killing those he deemed traitors in the core game, now it's just in our face.

    Because, as we have literally seen, more Charr are becoming friendly with the idea of humanity being an ally. We saw it in Grothmar, and now we actively have humans coming to help the Charr without being asked to or asking for anything in return. It's literally canon that the Iron legion extended the first olive branch of peace to humanity, which got stolen by pirates and the new human prince of Kryta escalated the war around Ebonhawke. The charr who work alongside humans tend to become friendlier, or at least more accepting of those they fight alongside. Now they see humans laying down their lives, willingly, to help them? Plus flame legion reforming itself and hating the searing crystals/that part of their history?

    Yes, I do think we may see that official story changed at some point, as the culture continues to change.

    Smodur is approaching this as a battle, or a short war. He wants it over with as soon as possible. He doesn't want to waste resources guarding prisoners, especially ones who many try to convince the guards to defect. Crecia and Malice are approaching it in a long term perspective, as in what happens after Bangar is defeated. Everybody is outside of their comfort zone, and this is probably the worst charr fighting they've seen since the legions rebelled against the flame.

    And i'm not saying the Orcs are more well written, they are written terribly in comparison to the Charr, but even when Thrall is a walking fountain of hypocrisy he has more moral integrity then the average Imperator has on a good day.

    Sure, Thrall has more moral integrity, until you factor in that he shoved Garrosh onto the thrown and promptly disappeared without advising or teaching him. And then he refused to do anything when Cairne challenged, and died to Garrosh. Or when Vol'jin outright told Thrall that the trolls were about to leave the horde. Thrall left the horde when it needed him the most and never returned until several brutal wars later leaving the world coated in the corpses of horde and alliance both. Also Too bad literally few of the orcs under him share any of it at all. Smodur is on the edge, the new flame legion Imperator and Malice are both reasonable. The "acting" blood legion imperator Crecia is reasonable. Unlike the Orcs we literally get to see that no, the Charr aren't all "WAGE WAR AND MURDER HUMANS". But infact, a great many accepted the treaty, and moved on. Bangar rallied the grumpy old guard, and is using propanganda (fueled by Aurene's killing of the devourer as fear of the commander/pact using her as a tactical weapon against them) to convert more. But even then, when the morale was boosted by the Commander and Seraph's reinforcements and new battle tactics, we saw the tide turn and the defections slow, and the Dominion pushed back.

    We have literally seen now an imperator go off the deep end and a massive chunk of his legion standing firm and going "No, this is wrong."

    The orcs, however, never do this. Sure a couple reject the evil leaders, but the majority don't. They act reformed and sorry but then the horde is the one that always punches first. Yes, OOCLY it's because of Blizzards obsession with the status quoe of alliance VS horde and that they never want to actually end the war, but that doesn't change the fact that in universe, in the very lore the orcs have easily regressed into rampage. Warlords of Draenor showed them doing it without demonic blood. WoW showed it under Garrosh and Sylvanas. Meanwhile in Grothmar, and even in core game we saw a bit of how the cultural view of the Charr was changing slowly.

    The Charr signed a peace treaty with the humans, and honored it. They labeled all who went against it and acted as traitors around Ebonhawke. The majority of the Charr won't stab you in the back after agreeing to help you fight. The same is not able to be said at all about the orcs of WoW. I'll take a Charr over an Orc every day because one uses it's brains, can adapt and THRIVE in bad situations, and the other.... is stuck in the past, refuses to change, and doesn't seem to make any efforts about making their capital land thrive with farms and resources.

    TLDR: The Charr can, and have been shown to change and continue to change. The Orcs? They don't change. A few individuals do but the society doesn't at all. We have a chance to come out of this with a new, great Charr society. The Orcs will forever be stuck as they are unless the horde-alliance war permanently ends.

  • Dan.9304Dan.9304 Member ✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    I agree with the Smodur point. Suddenly, the diplomat Smodur started to act as a ruthless villain. Not to speak about his lack of imagination or tolerance. A suspect storage on the map? Destroy it. No matter the cost. I wonder what advantages he saw by killing the hostage in front of Ryland? His intention was to made sure Ryland will remain on the enemy side? HM?

    Anyhow, I can see his end. If Ryland survives he will kill Smodur. If Ryland will not survive, Smodur will face Crecia or Rytlock fury. Most probably a deadly fury.

    What I don't understand in the story is how Ryland and his warband (and also nobody else) noticed how the chars turned into icebroods? And how Bangar manages to lead his troops without showing himself. Because )for me at least) is clear that Bangar is already corrupted. At mental level - and most probably at physical level too.

    i think he killed her in front of him because he was trying to set an example for what happens to traitors. i mean not every race can be as perfect as we Asura.

    Black Gate: [ViP]

  • Dan.9304Dan.9304 Member ✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Anyway whose side are you on? Team Smodur, team Crecia or team Bangar? If I could pick, I would choose Bangar. A Charr trying to control an Elder Dragon? sign me up!

    im on team asura.

    Black Gate: [ViP]

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    That is a heavily skewed version of events in both games, in each instance you had more orcs questioning Garrosh and Sylvanas's actions then you ever had Charr doing the same for the Flame Legions tactics against humans or even each other. They discard evil because it ceases to be useful, not out of any moral compunction, it is only with Malice and Crecia as well as cultural diffusion with individuals like Rytlock that they have finally started to question the old ways. Nor have the Charr ever cared about healing Ascalon, it's their land to despoil in however they see fit, it's why the Khan Ur wanted to slash and burn it in his retreat just like the Flame Shamans burned it in the Searing. Olmakhan going out of their way to revere nature is explicitly and exception to the rule.

    You mean the trolls and Tauren who questioned Garrosh, since the orcs mostly supported him? Or the literally stated fact from horde leadership that Sylvanas had the majority support and approval of all the horde races, in battle for Azeroth? To the point that if she hadn't ranted and screamed at her own forces, she could've kept the war going? The Charr changed, the Orcs have never changed. They talk about change but they have zero problems following a hostile leader into war and conquest, burning and killing everything in their way.

    I don't suppose you ever, at all did those slew of events based around Iron legion cleaning up tar out of the lakes and waterways from the (then hostile) flame legion? Or the functional farms and other areas? Did you see that large farm near the blood keep at Grothmar? The Charr have helped heal the land from it's GW1 days, and actively do work to keep the water-ways clean of tar and other contaminants.

    The Olmakhan revering nature is a change to their former ways, and a different way of life compared to the legions. It doesn't say the Charr care nothing about the land they live on.

    The priory can research all it wants and some Charr can search to find the truth, but do you think it matters to that society when the state sanctioned history is so useful? You don't give an 'official' version of history unless you want to discredit all other interpretations. If this event is any indication it's that the Charr don't l know what to do with peace and will revert to war with their society setup the way it is, and even the 'progressives' like Smodur are not good people. Nor are they intelligent pragmatists, the way that he's executing his deserts left and right does nothing but flood the Dominion with even more defectors. But it's not new, Smodur has always made a spectacle of killing those he deemed traitors in the core game, now it's just in our face.

    Because, as we have literally seen, more Charr are becoming friendly with the idea of humanity being an ally. We saw it in Grothmar, and now we actively have humans coming to help the Charr without being asked to or asking for anything in return. It's literally canon that the Iron legion extended the first olive branch of peace to humanity, which got stolen by pirates and the new human prince of Kryta escalated the war around Ebonhawke. The charr who work alongside humans tend to become friendlier, or at least more accepting of those they fight alongside. Now they see humans laying down their lives, willingly, to help them? Plus flame legion reforming itself and hating the searing crystals/that part of their history?

    Yes, I do think we may see that official story changed at some point, as the culture continues to change.

    Smodur is approaching this as a battle, or a short war. He wants it over with as soon as possible. He doesn't want to waste resources guarding prisoners, especially ones who many try to convince the guards to defect. Crecia and Malice are approaching it in a long term perspective, as in what happens after Bangar is defeated. Everybody is outside of their comfort zone, and this is probably the worst charr fighting they've seen since the legions rebelled against the flame.

    And i'm not saying the Orcs are more well written, they are written terribly in comparison to the Charr, but even when Thrall is a walking fountain of hypocrisy he has more moral integrity then the average Imperator has on a good day.

    Sure, Thrall has more moral integrity, until you factor in that he shoved Garrosh onto the thrown and promptly disappeared without advising or teaching him. And then he refused to do anything when Cairne challenged, and died to Garrosh. Or when Vol'jin outright told Thrall that the trolls were about to leave the horde. Thrall left the horde when it needed him the most and never returned until several brutal wars later leaving the world coated in the corpses of horde and alliance both. Also Too bad literally few of the orcs under him share any of it at all. Smodur is on the edge, the new flame legion Imperator and Malice are both reasonable. The "acting" blood legion imperator Crecia is reasonable. Unlike the Orcs we literally get to see that no, the Charr aren't all "WAGE WAR AND MURDER HUMANS". But infact, a great many accepted the treaty, and moved on. Bangar rallied the grumpy old guard, and is using propanganda (fueled by Aurene's killing of the devourer as fear of the commander/pact using her as a tactical weapon against them) to convert more. But even then, when the morale was boosted by the Commander and Seraph's reinforcements and new battle tactics, we saw the tide turn and the defections slow, and the Dominion pushed back.

    We have literally seen now an imperator go off the deep end and a massive chunk of his legion standing firm and going "No, this is wrong."

    The orcs, however, never do this. Sure a couple reject the evil leaders, but the majority don't. They act reformed and sorry but then the horde is the one that always punches first. Yes, OOCLY it's because of Blizzards obsession with the status quoe of alliance VS horde and that they never want to actually end the war, but that doesn't change the fact that in universe, in the very lore the orcs have easily regressed into rampage. Warlords of Draenor showed them doing it without demonic blood. WoW showed it under Garrosh and Sylvanas. Meanwhile in Grothmar, and even in core game we saw a bit of how the cultural view of the Charr was changing slowly.

    The Charr signed a peace treaty with the humans, and honored it. They labeled all who went against it and acted as traitors around Ebonhawke. The majority of the Charr won't stab you in the back after agreeing to help you fight. The same is not able to be said at all about the orcs of WoW. I'll take a Charr over an Orc every day because one uses it's brains, can adapt and THRIVE in bad situations, and the other.... is stuck in the past, refuses to change, and doesn't seem to make any efforts about making their capital land thrive with farms and resources.

    TLDR: The Charr can, and have been shown to change and continue to change. The Orcs? They don't change. A few individuals do but the society doesn't at all. We have a chance to come out of this with a new, great Charr society. The Orcs will forever be stuck as they are unless the horde-alliance war permanently ends.

    Saying that the Charr cleaning up the tar in the Flame Citadel is helping 'heal Ascalon' is a stretch at best. All that toxic sludge is an impediment to their warmachines and their troop movements, they comment as much when you enter the zone. It doesn't have anything to do with some grand ecology project to restore Ascalon, their capital is after all a massive pile of junk stacked ontop of itself. The exceptions to this are, yes, the farmers who provide food and water to the Legions but yet again this comes down to practicality. The Legions do not, and have never, had a great respect for nature beyond something they can control to serve their own ends.

    Also, in what world is Grothmar proof that humans and Charr are getting along better? It was literally designed to create a massive hate mob to leverage against every other Tyrian race, rife with the victimization of anyone who was not Charr. There are about as many examples of Orcs trying to be better, if not more, compared to the Charr(Varok, Etrigg, Thrall, Drek'thar, literally random NPCs like the orc talking to his son in the Valley of Honor during Sylvanas's reign) in comparison to the Charr(Rytlock, Efram, and Malice.) like even factoring that Thrall abandoned the Horde in it's time of need, he is leaps and bounds above Smodur who has, for pretty much all his existence, profited off the work of others and the suffering of those under him. Malice was the actual progressive leader while he only saw the treaty as a means to advance his own station and stabilize a war he was losing. He's a vulture, not a leader, and his actions on the battlefield are born more of panic and frustration then genuine pragmatism, definitely above Bangar for obvious reasons, and Gaheron. The only one comparable is Malice. Neither Crecia nor Efram really count at this point in time given their status, if they're better it'll be after Charr society has ripped itself apart in bloodshed and war until they see the folly of their ways.

    This whole idea that the treaty was 'honored' while they are literally, as of this moment, slaughtering human civvies with an ever growing number of soldiers who have lost faith in the United Legions cause doesn't resonate. Even among the United Legions themselves the dialogue makes it clear many of them are still racists, just ones that stay with the Legions out of loyalty in contrast to the Seraph who had no such problems working with the Charr. This isn't the old guard, Bangar is rallying the young to his cause in mass as well as the old. As one Iron Legionnaire says: "Is this what it's come to? cubs killing cubs?" and the theme of this episode is how new Charr are falling to the same madness as old, Ryland and Steel is a direct representation of those young.

    And what of the Charr exceptions? The meek? the merciful? the poor? Doomed, all of them, because the system despises softness and those without a warband. Both the United Legions and Dominion despise the disenfranchised beyond the fact they're tools to exploit, those are the real heroes of Charr society, and they've been rendered nearly powerless because the Beatitude of the Legions is 'Good luck, you're on your own.'

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dan.9304 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Anyway whose side are you on? Team Smodur, team Crecia or team Bangar? If I could pick, I would choose Bangar. A Charr trying to control an Elder Dragon? sign me up!

    im on team asura.

    Next patch the writers will take away the arrogant attitude of the Asura as well. Welcome to the human family where everyone is nice to each other.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Dan.9304 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Anyway whose side are you on? Team Smodur, team Crecia or team Bangar? If I could pick, I would choose Bangar. A Charr trying to control an Elder Dragon? sign me up!

    im on team asura.

    Next patch the writers will take away the arrogant attitude of the Asura as well. Welcome to the human family where everyone is nice to each other.

    Asura that aren't arrogant are actually pretty common, from many of the pact medics we see to some of the more goofy personal story characters. I'd even say we see just as much arrogance from other races.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    TLDR: The Charr can, and have been shown to change and continue to change. The Orcs? They don't change. A few individuals do but the society doesn't at all. We have a chance to come out of this with a new, great Charr society. The Orcs will forever be stuck as they are unless the horde-alliance war permanently ends.

    Advance the charr only 35 years out from when we first see them in Guild Wars 1 and then let's compare them with the orcs as they are now in Warcraft and then we would have a more apt comparison than asserting the orcs "never change."

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Saying that the Charr cleaning up the tar in the Flame Citadel is helping 'heal Ascalon' is a stretch at best. All that toxic sludge is an impediment to their warmachines and their troop movements, they comment as much when you enter the zone. It doesn't have anything to do with some grand ecology project to restore Ascalon, their capital is after all a massive pile of junk stacked ontop of itself. The exceptions to this are, yes, the farmers who provide food and water to the Legions but yet again this comes down to practicality. The Legions do not, and have never, had a great respect for nature beyond something they can control to serve their own ends.

    I'm not talking at the flame citadel/dungeon area. I'm talking all around. There are several events about it. You act as if the Charr simply plunder, I point at Ascalon's current state compared to what it was after the searing with no recovery in sight.

    Also, in what world is Grothmar proof that humans and Charr are getting along better? It was literally designed to create a massive hate mob to leverage against every other Tyrian race, rife with the victimization of anyone who was not Charr. There are about as many examples of Orcs trying to be better, if not more, compared to the Charr(Varok, Etrigg, Thrall, Drek'thar, literally random NPCs like the orc talking to his son in the Valley of Honor during Sylvanas's reign) in comparison to the Charr(Rytlock, Efram, and Malice.) like even factoring that Thrall abandoned the Horde in it's time of need, he is leaps and bounds above Smodur who has, for pretty much all his existence, profited off the work of others and the suffering of those under him. Malice was the actual progressive leader while he only saw the treaty as a means to advance his own station and stabilize a war he was losing. He's a vulture, not a leader, and his actions on the battlefield are born more of panic and frustration then genuine pragmatism, definitely above Bangar for obvious reasons, and Gaheron. The only one comparable is Malice. Neither Crecia nor Efram really count at this point in time given their status, if they're better it'll be after Charr society has ripped itself apart in bloodshed and war until they see the folly of their ways.

    Because for every convo you see of a Charr hating on humans/other races, you see one who doesn't care about continuing the war, or is okay with humanity. You see the blood legion pair reporting their warband for breaking the treaty and attacking a human, an iron legion declaring how she wishes she was around for a human being assaulted so she could've beat the hell out of the attackers, the Ash legion officer berating and punishing a subordinate for being hostile and racist, a younger blood legion charr fine with the war toward humanity being over and not giving a kitten about "offending the long-dead ghosts of some charr". It is not universal "HATE HUMANS" or universal "YAY WAR IS OVER" but Grothmar makes it kitten clear that the Charr have a varied range of viewpoints regarding it.

    I've never heard of Varok, Etrigg, Drek'thar. I've heard of a SINGLE orc father telling his son that honor is hard to regain, but that's it. Everything I heard was how the Horde is pretty much united in the war effort and there is very little dissent, and that's even a plot point brought up when fighting the Naga. For every time the orcs try to be better, the rest of them continue burning and killing the moment they get told it's okay.

    I don't know how old Smodur is but again, Iron legion went for peace first, things went downhill. Smodur is an example of a mainline Charr before the civil war went extreme, while Thrall is not an example of mainline Orc at any point.. Hell, Thrall was the war-chief, Smodur is Iron legion imperator. As Malice says, he is not Khan-Ur, and will never be. Edit: It was the previous Imperator who attempted peace. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Singe_Seigemourn

    This whole idea that the treaty was 'honored' while they are literally, as of this moment, slaughtering human civvies with an ever growing number of soldiers who have lost faith in the United Legions cause doesn't resonate. Even among the United Legions themselves the dialogue makes it clear many of them are still racists, just ones that stay with the Legions out of loyalty in contrast to the Seraph who had no such problems working with the Charr. This isn't the old guard, Bangar is rallying the young to his cause in mass as well as the old. As one Iron Legionnaire says: "Is this what it's come to? cubs killing cubs?" and the theme of this episode is how new Charr are falling to the same madness as old, Ryland and Steel is a direct representation of those young.

    It was honored for years until an explicitly rogue element took the groups loyal to his idea, left into the Shiverpeaks and returned literally waging war on the legion regulars. It was at first mostly the old guard. And as noted, Bagnar is running a very good propaganda network (Which we can assume is now partly enhanced by Jormag, given how some Charr note hearing voices in the map) which was striking at those with no Morale. As the tide turned, the defections stopped and the Dominion was pushed back and wiped out. As of now in the story the region is in Legions hands with the bridge held by Frost legion/dominion.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Asura that aren't arrogant are actually pretty common, from many of the pact medics we see to some of the more goofy personal story characters. I'd even say we see just as much arrogance from other races.

    Most Asura not stuck in a lab or Asura office tend to be less arrogant and more annoyed at stupid questions from what I've seen. The arrogance comes from the upper levels of society.

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    TLDR: The Charr can, and have been shown to change and continue to change. The Orcs? They don't change. A few individuals do but the society doesn't at all. We have a chance to come out of this with a new, great Charr society. The Orcs will forever be stuck as they are unless the horde-alliance war permanently ends.

    Advance the charr only 35 years out from when we first see them in Guild Wars 1 and then let's compare them with the orcs as they are now in Warcraft and then we would have a more apt comparison than asserting the orcs "never change."

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    TLDR: The Charr can, and have been shown to change and continue to change. The Orcs? They don't change. A few individuals do but the society doesn't at all. We have a chance to come out of this with a new, great Charr society. The Orcs will forever be stuck as they are unless the horde-alliance war permanently ends.

    Advance the charr only 35 years out from when we first see them in Guild Wars 1 and then let's compare them with the orcs as they are now in Warcraft and then we would have a more apt comparison than asserting the orcs "never change."

    See, the problem is that will never happen because Blizzard will not end the war between horde/alliance and actually advance the world forward. It's an OOC detail that sadly makes the IC story worse. In 35 years we saw Pyre start the seeds of rebellion against the shamans. At 46 years the rebellion happened, removing the shamans from power, restoring females, and setting the stage for where Charr are now. Basically, Anet allows the change to evolve and change. Blizzard won't/can't let the orcs change because that would require them to actually end the conflict and finally advance the war past constant brutal conflicts that wipe out armies that magically reappear a year or so later.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    I'm not talking at the flame citadel/dungeon area. I'm talking all around. There are several events about it. You act as if the Charr simply plunder, I point at Ascalon's current state compared to what it was after the searing with no recovery in sight.

    How much of that was simply nature running its course over two hundred years though?

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    See, the problem is that will never happen because Blizzard will not end the war between horde/alliance and actually advance the world forward. It's an OOC detail that sadly makes the IC story worse. In 35 years we saw Pyre start the seeds of rebellion against the shamans. At 46 years the rebellion happened, removing the shamans from power, restoring females, and setting the stage for where Charr are now. Basically, Anet allows the change to evolve and change. Blizzard won't/can't let the orcs change because that would require them to actually end the conflict and finally advance the war past constant brutal conflicts that wipe out armies that magically reappear a year or so later.

    Yes, but your presentation of history here falls in line with the charr's lopsided version of events that casts all the blame on the Flame Legion. The charr rebelled against the Flame Legion largely due to the false gods thing, not because they felt regret for attempting genocide against humans or the Searing. In 35 years, we could point to similar developments with the orcs as well. ANet flash-forwarded the timeline to handwave a lot of the details of cultural transformation that we have been experiencing with orcs in Warcraft. We can say, for example, that Thrall moved the orcs into a different direction, whether they have stayed consistently on that road or not. We are seeing the seeds of orc culture change. It's also about their move from a loose tribes to a tribal confederation to an Orcish Horde to the establishment of their first actual nation state. We even saw the Horde make treaties, truces, ceasefires, etc. with humans as well. We saw the rejection of the Burning Legion as their "false gods." We saw them return to a shamanistic religion. We saw them modernize their warfare. Again, it's not like the charr stopped fighting the Ascalonians/Ebonhawke or issued apologies to humanity just because they overthrew the Flame Legion. I think that you are perhaps either blind or ignorant to just how huge the change of orcish society has been, because you are just focused your narrative on orcs as unchanging warmongers. (Which again conveniently overlooks how charr have been for a large chunk of their own history.) Is Bangar's Frost Legion really all that new and different of a development from things like the Garrosh Hellscream-led Horde? Honestly, the orcs have shown more moves of progress in their 35 years than the charr did in their 46 years.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    See, you make the mistake of saying I blame it all on the flame legion. I do not. I do however note that they changed after the Flame legion was removed. And the Charr do not hide from their history, nor do they lie about what they are.

    And the charr have shown more progress in 8 years then the orcs have in WoW. At the start of the game tensions are high and the situation uneasy. Then the cease-fire turned into a treaty. Then we saw a blood warband willingly march to DR to help protect the city from the White Mantle in order to preserve all the two races had gained and keep the Mantle from destroying it. We saw Charr and humans grow friendly as they fought common foes. We saw deep in blood's lands far from humanity that the numbers of those okay with humans, or okay with the end of the war has been growing. Now we have humans marching to help the Charr as repayment and being accepted. Frankly I can't think of many instances I've heard of in WoW showing that a good chunk of orcs are perfectly fine with an end of the conflict and being okay with humans.

    If the narrative about orcs being warmongers is false, then how come the vast majority of the orcs gladly followed Garrosh into brutal war? And then Sylvanas with no complaint? They saw her burn down the world tree and genocide the night elves, slaughtering men women and children. And how many spoke up? Very few. almost all were A-okay with it in everything I have read and seen. I recall the AU orc tribe that got recruited into the horde was willing to follow Sylvanas no matter what she did simply because she was the warchief. Of course, when Sylvanas got kicked out she said "sorry" and was allowed to sit on the leading council.

    I look at Charr, I see a race that is allowed to evolve and push it's boundries as a culture. I look at the orcs, like everything in WoW and see a race shackled by the obsession of the writers by the conflict of the factions, leading to a cycle of death-brief peace-war-death. After Garrosh was removed from power they could've actually SHOWN real change happening with the orcs. But then we got Sylvanas and they went back to their evil roots. I've long said about Wow to friends that they need to just end the faction war (because it's stupid anyway and there is no way the world makes sense if they are constantly losing giant armies in battle, or the sides fighting side by side and always hating each other) so they can actually do interesting things with the story, like growing the races into new things.

    But, agree to disagree, I don't see much being talked about when I glance at WoW showing that the orcs are changing in noticeable, large ways. Meanwhile in GW2 I can wander Charr areas and clearly see how things are improving relation wise. Or the common detail that we see large numbers of charr outside Ascalon working alongside the other races without difficulty, the main thing hindering legion charr is lack of interaction.

  • Dan.9304Dan.9304 Member ✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Dan.9304 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Anyway whose side are you on? Team Smodur, team Crecia or team Bangar? If I could pick, I would choose Bangar. A Charr trying to control an Elder Dragon? sign me up!

    im on team asura.

    Next patch the writers will take away the arrogant attitude of the Asura as well. Welcome to the human family where everyone is nice to each other.

    my ears! you just wish you were as smart as us!

    Black Gate: [ViP]

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    I would like to hold up one tiny detail that is quite nicely done on the part of ArenaNet. Most of the prior existing Cache guards were Blood Legion (at one point or another), with the exception of Lucia Wildeye. Yahuk Fellstrike is recruited into the Ash player's warband, but when encountered in the Flame Legion cell, his captors reveal that he was previously Blood Legion.