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Isn't Smodur supposed to be the pragmatic one?

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Seems like a typical, war-minded Charr to me. There has never been tolerance for defectors or enemy spies, so why show mercy to them now?

    Because if you kill anyone who might otherwise defect to you, the defections will only ever flow one way. And if you kill all your prisoners, the enemy will fight to the death because they have nothing to lose.

    This is a 'hearts and minds' campaign as much as a military one, and Smodur's policy hands that advantage entirely to the Dominion.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Seems like a typical, war-minded Charr to me. There has never been tolerance for defectors or enemy spies, so why show mercy to them now?

    Because if you kill anyone who might otherwise defect to you, the defections will only ever flow one way. And if you kill all your prisoners, the enemy will fight to the death because they have nothing to lose.

    This is a 'hearts and minds' campaign as much as a military one, and Smodur's policy hands that advantage entirely to the Dominion.

    This is a cultural thing first and foremost. Blame the Charr, not him.

    I rather choose death.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Sheader.6827 said:
    They jumped his personality too much. I remember from Season 2 how calm and respectful he was towards the PC and Rytlock. This is not the same character. The situation does not demand him to turn into Bangar 2.0.

    To be fair, in Season 3 he had Rytlock arrested for questioning, and then deemed Rytlock's experiences in the Mists 'classified' so there was no opportunity to make the link between a figure in the Mists that could reignite Sohothin and Balthazar until Balthazar had already caught us by surprise.

    But yeah, there does seem to be a shift in his characterisation.

    That actually brings up an interesting point about charr politics: how much power do the imperators hold over other legions' officers?

    We don't know if it was Smodur who was the sole person behind the arrest per se other than the appearance of the Adamant Guard which at least suggests his involvement as other imperators couldn't order the Adamant Guard around like that. But it opens another can of worms:

    Back in Season 2 Rytlock and Smodur seemed to get along fine, and Smodur was certain Rytlock would survive the Mists trip. He did ask the Commander to deliver news to him once Rytlock returned so he could learn what Rytlock had experienced, but other than that he didn't seem to press the issue.

    Upon his return from the Mists, Rytlock never had a conversation about Smodur with the Commander, on screen at least, so we don't know if the Commander ever relayed Smodur's wish to Rytlock. By the time Rytlock's return became widely known, he did receive summons to return to the Black Citadel, but he oddly rejected these summons despite the fact how at the time nothing he had done in the Mists (to our knowledge) would be dangerous per se: all we really learned over time was that he met Glint who taught him the ways of the revenant, he might have struggled mastering the powers of various legends a bit, and he freed a seemingly random spirit who had somehow reignited Sohothin. And yet Rytlock was willing to disobey orders even though a quick trip to the Citadel to report the aforementioned info would've been enough to satisfy Smodur's curiosity.

    Second, Smodur shouldn't really have such an authority over Rytlock, at least not while Rytlock wasn't at the Black Citadel, and thus Iron grounds, at the time. Oddly enough Rytlock was even demoted, an act that Smodur as Iron Imperator shouldn't be able to do to my understanding. This, to me, suggests that perhaps Bangar was behind wanting a report from Rytlock and had the authority to demote Rytlock if he resisted, and somehow coerced Smodur to go along with the idea to bring Rytlock back to a tribunal (maybe threatening opening hostilities with Smodur if Blood's demands were not met). This would also explain Rytlock's reluctance to hand in a report as he wanted nothing to do with Bangar and tried to avoid responsibility as long as possible until no other choice was left for him (compare him e.g. reluctantly following us to Grothmar during the prologue episode).

    If Iron Imperator Smodur somehow had the authority to demote a Blood Tribune like Rytlock, that would no doubt cause an incident between him and Bangar; even if Smodur enjoyed humiliating Bangar with such a show of power, he'd be dealing with the same Blood Imperator who had confiscated Iron artillery and had at one point intended to aim them at the Black Citadel just because of paranoia. Who knows how Bangar would've acted if he learned what Smodur had done to a Blood officer, so Smodur as a strategist should've hopefully known better than to take that chance.

    Still, it begs the question why Rytlock was so tight-lipped about the Mists adventure at all. It couldn't have been freeing a random spirit or being taught by Glint as those, by themselves, aren't really that big a deal beyond introducing a new profession to Tyria. Given how the info was deemed classified so only tribunes and above had clearance for it while Rytlock's rank was somehow reinstated after his tribunal, there must've been something else to the story that convinced the charr brass of such secrecy and why Rytlock wasn't ordered to scrapper duty for the rest of his life.

    I wonder if just freeing a random spirit really was that big a deal to the charr brass or if Rytlock is still hiding something from us. Perhaps he learned something and swore to Glint to never reveal it under any circumstance, hence his reluctance to elaborate on matters until he was forced to. Or maybe he discovered something that he personally wanted to keep a secret so whatever knowledge he learned wouldn't be abused by Bangar or anyone else.

    It does make one think what Smodur's thought process was during the whole tribunal, and if this incident somehow soured his and Rytlock's budding friendship and respect to some degree. It would be nice if the writers explored what exactly happened during the closed doors meeting, why Rytlock was reluctant about turning in a report, and why his rank was reinstated despite his disobedience. It seems like we're still missing a key piece of Rytlock's Mists puzzle that has been ongoing since the subplot began in Season 2.

    Curiously Season 2 also introduced the idea of Rox working as a free agent and reporting on some activities to someone in Smodur's office. I've written at length about "Rox's Secret", why she was acting as a spy, who exactly was she was spying on, what her relationship was with the enigmatic and hostile Monti Scythescrape, and why Rox even lied to the Pact Commander (with only the charr Commander realizing something was amiss in her explanations) during "Reunion with the Pact" and "Return to Camp Resolve" instances.

    Was Rox working for Smodur as she was interested in Rytlock's Mists adventure as well as the egg based on her dialogue in S2 and HoT, or was she potentially working for Bangar if she was offered another chance to join the Stone Warband by delivering him intel on Core Tyrian activities? I wouldn't put it past Bangar to use Rox as a pawn in his game as he knows what buttons to push and what rewards to offer to make people dance to his tune. However, it still leaves the mystery of Monti whose armor our charr Commander didn't recognize, though, but Monti could've been Bangar's liaison for all we know unless there's something else to him as he and Rox seem to know each other from somewhere and don't seem to like one another that much.

    Whatever the reason, it seems strange that Smodur would change his tune about Rytlock since "Plan of Attack" and start insulting him despite respecting him before. It's likewise strange why Rytlock would hesitate telling Smodur anything in S3 if Smodur was for the most part responsible for the arrest and tribunal as opposed to Bangar, as nothing that we know of Rytlock's Mists adventure is dangerous knowledge per se. Rytlock would be risking his entire career for nothing.

    It seems to me like there's more to this story yet to be told, but whether we ever explore it now that both Angel McCoy and Scott McGough (who seem to have been the main architects of this idea and may have taken their plans with them) are gone remains to be seen. It would be a neat tie-in to Bangar and Smodur's storyline, especially if we ran into Monti again and learned just what exactly his relationship with Rox was, and if the story ever canonizes the cut Season 1 ending where Rox was suggested to be Rytlock's half-sister via sharing the same dam who had made Rytlock promise to watch over Rox while on her deathbed.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Seems like a typical, war-minded Charr to me. There has never been tolerance for defectors or enemy spies, so why show mercy to them now?

    Because if you kill anyone who might otherwise defect to you, the defections will only ever flow one way. And if you kill all your prisoners, the enemy will fight to the death because they have nothing to lose.

    This is a 'hearts and minds' campaign as much as a military one, and Smodur's policy hands that advantage entirely to the Dominion.

    This is a cultural thing first and foremost. Blame the Charr, not him.

    From the reactions of other charr in the episode, it's pretty clear that Smodur's choices are his own personal policy, not a universal charr cultural trait.

  • CAA.9653CAA.9653 Member ✭✭

    Ehh, killing enemy solders, death penalty for treason, executing prisoners - sadly that is all too common in any war. But in then end, Bangar and Smolder will die, Rytlock or Crecia will become the new Imperator of the Blood Legion while the other returns to Tribute duties, Ryland will join the PC guild and become the new chosen one (e.g. Brahan) for their species/race. Personally, I like the dark turn the story is taking - more interesting than the kid stuff from the main story and early LS seasons.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CAA.9653 said:
    Ehh, killing enemy solders, death penalty for treason, executing prisoners - sadly that is all too common in any war. But in then end, Bangar and Smolder will die, Rytlock or Crecia will become the new Imperator of the Blood Legion while the other returns to Tribute duties, Ryland will join the PC guild and become the new chosen one (e.g. Brahan) for their species/race. Personally, I like the dark turn the story is taking - more interesting than the kid stuff from the main story and early LS seasons.

    that "kids stuff" is actually quite important, we were the good guys fighting evil.
    in a grey world, ANYONE could be your next enemy...or friend
    you are basically fighting the whole world to save.....the whole world
    at that point, you are basically just a murder machine...GG

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

  • CAA.9653CAA.9653 Member ✭✭
    edited July 7, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @CAA.9653 said:
    Ehh, killing enemy solders, death penalty for treason, executing prisoners - sadly that is all too common in any war. But in then end, Bangar and Smolder will die, Rytlock or Crecia will become the new Imperator of the Blood Legion while the other returns to Tribute duties, Ryland will join the PC guild and become the new chosen one (e.g. Brahan) for their species/race. Personally, I like the dark turn the story is taking - more interesting than the kid stuff from the main story and early LS seasons.

    that "kids stuff" is actually quite important, we were the good guys fighting evil.
    in a grey world, ANYONE could be your next enemy...or friend
    you are basically fighting the whole world to save.....the whole world
    at that point, you are basically just a murder machine...GG

    You're making assumptions about what I meant based on what I said. I didn't say anything about a grey world. My point is, the story line was predictable and boring, and the sudden change in tone makes everything more interesting. But to your point, GWs has always been a shade of grey - everybody is either an ally or an enemy, and your PC is judge, jury, and executioner just like in most video games. Flame legion- the PC has killed hundreds/thousands of them, and now some are allies. Corsairs - enemies then allies. Bangar - ally now enemy. Sylvari - ally then enemy now ally again. But in the end, I don't think any of us play GW2 strictly for the well structured story narrative. But I promise you there will be a happy ending to this Saga because most people want to believe they are always fighting for the 'good' side.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

    Pragmatism is seeking effectiveness. Smodur thinks it's effective to kill them, he orders it.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CAA.9653 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @CAA.9653 said:
    Ehh, killing enemy solders, death penalty for treason, executing prisoners - sadly that is all too common in any war. But in then end, Bangar and Smolder will die, Rytlock or Crecia will become the new Imperator of the Blood Legion while the other returns to Tribute duties, Ryland will join the PC guild and become the new chosen one (e.g. Brahan) for their species/race. Personally, I like the dark turn the story is taking - more interesting than the kid stuff from the main story and early LS seasons.

    that "kids stuff" is actually quite important, we were the good guys fighting evil.
    in a grey world, ANYONE could be your next enemy...or friend
    you are basically fighting the whole world to save.....the whole world
    at that point, you are basically just a murder machine...GG

    You're making assumptions about what I meant based on what I said. I didn't say anything about a grey world. My point is, the story line was predictable and boring, and the sudden change in tone makes everything more interesting. But to your point, GWs has always been a shade of grey - everybody is either an ally or an enemy, and your PC is judge, jury, and executioner just like in most video games. Flame legion- the PC has killed hundreds/thousands of them, and now some are allies. Corsairs - enemies then allies. Bangar - ally now enemy. Sylvari - ally then enemy now ally again. But in the end, I don't think any of us play GW2 strictly for the well structured story narrative. But I promise you there will be a happy ending to this Saga because most people want to believe they are always fighting for the 'good' side.

    if you dont mean what you say, then you prolly shouldnt say it to begin with
    this is a FANTASY mmo , and most people dream about being the hero, not some morally ambigious mercenary
    they will prolly TRY to write a happy ending, but it wont be happy at all.
    the "boring and predictable" parts are actually needed, which they are about to find out

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

    Pragmatism is seeking effectiveness. Smodur thinks it's effective to kill them, he orders it.

    yep...4 dead losers over a steady alliance. he could even just had done it LATER, and in SECRET. this isnt leadership, its a clown show
    you want to follow him, go for it. i doubt many will join you
    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, that's the thing. Smodur had previously been portrayed as a consummate politician and a successful negotiator, for better or worse. However much he might think a bit of ruthlessness is justified, he should know how his allies are likely to react to his behaviour - especially Malice, who's been the Ash Imperator for about a decade if not more. In particular, he just unilaterally ruined a negotiation that Malice had risked her life to set up.

    For someone who's supposed to be good at diplomacy, at least by charr standards, that's an idiot ball move.

    What has Smodur ever actually negotiated himself though? The big thing usually accredited to him, the Ebonhawk Treaty, was almost entirely the work of Almorra, and Malice. He just likes taking the credit, something brought up in this very episode.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

    Pragmatism is seeking effectiveness. Smodur thinks it's effective to kill them, he orders it.

    yep...4 dead losers over a steady alliance. he could even just had done it LATER, and in SECRET. this isnt leadership, its a clown show
    you want to follow him, go for it. i doubt many will join you
    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

    Yeah, that's the thing. Smodur had previously been portrayed as a consummate politician and a successful negotiator, for better or worse. However much he might think a bit of ruthlessness is justified, he should know how his allies are likely to react to his behaviour - especially Malice, who's been the Ash Imperator for about a decade if not more. In particular, he just unilaterally ruined a negotiation that Malice had risked her life to set up.

    For someone who's supposed to be good at diplomacy, at least by charr standards, that's an idiot ball move.

    it is both evil AND stupid, a total cartoon villain.
    leaders like that are usually directly supported (and controlled) by satan himself
    the only way it would make sense, is if theyre setting up the PC to take back the "commander" title
    and if thats the case, they prolly chose the worst way to do it

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

    Pragmatism is seeking effectiveness. Smodur thinks it's effective to kill them, he orders it.

    yep...4 dead losers over a steady alliance. he could even just had done it LATER, and in SECRET. this isnt leadership, its a clown show
    you want to follow him, go for it. i doubt many will join you
    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

    Or the alliance would have never happened. You can't know.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

    Pragmatism is seeking effectiveness. Smodur thinks it's effective to kill them, he orders it.

    yep...4 dead losers over a steady alliance. he could even just had done it LATER, and in SECRET. this isnt leadership, its a clown show
    you want to follow him, go for it. i doubt many will join you
    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

    Yeah, that's the thing. Smodur had previously been portrayed as a consummate politician and a successful negotiator, for better or worse. However much he might think a bit of ruthlessness is justified, he should know how his allies are likely to react to his behaviour - especially Malice, who's been the Ash Imperator for about a decade if not more. In particular, he just unilaterally ruined a negotiation that Malice had risked her life to set up.

    For someone who's supposed to be good at diplomacy, at least by charr standards, that's an idiot ball move.

    You're mostly true.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly really expecting it will be revealed to be influence from Jormag with how much they went out of their way to highlight his behaviour.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Honestly really expecting it will be revealed to be influence from Jormag with how much they went out of their way to highlight his behaviour.

    Nah, in Guild Chat they outright said the whispers had nothing to do with it.

  • Wolfb.7025Wolfb.7025 Member ✭✭✭

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    He still is! He hasn't changed. I don't even see the problem here. Smodur is doing what is practically done in any conflict, hold the line and punish betrayal and defections. However, he does have a more heavy hand in war than in peace. But still, it's no diffferent than what any mere run-of-the-mill Charr warband does on a daily basis. The thing is, the player and Crecia want diplomacy so they can bring back Ryland in one piece. However, diplomacy doesn't always work. Bangar's forces have made it clear that they will oppose the legions to the death.

    If people see a problem with Smodur, it's simply because the latest episode did a good job highlighting the differences between Crecia and co vs. Smodur, which in any case good job ANet! Basically, Smodur wasn't a problem until the story said he was a problem!

    Just logged in to say I completely agree with you. I never wanted to see the story on a player's perspective (like, saying Bangar is dumb for believing he can tame an elder dragon and the defectors for following his ideals, for us players is really dumb, but for tyrians is a completely different thing to consider). And what Anet really made is make Smodur look bad just for the sake of looking like the villain and taking away part of the possibility of him becoming a Khan-Ur just for plot purposes. I just hope he doesn't end up receiving the Braham treatement to the point the player base loathe him.

    Years just pass like trains
    I wave but they don't sloow dooown~ don't slow doown~♪

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    He saw Ryland not follow the agreement to show up alone and already had enough of being shown up by this cub, at least since the parley.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing to note is that Smodur has always done things based on what he feels like he NEEDS to do to survive.

    • He accepted help from Blood and Ash because he couldn't fight the ghosts, flame legion, and Asclonians on his own
    • He accepted the treaty with humanity because the siege against Ebonhawke had gone nowhere in hundreds of years, and he needed those forces on the other fronts
    • He agreed to help fight Mordremoth because it was made clear no one nation could stand on its own

    You know what Smodur doesn't need? Ryland, the Steel Warband, or the defectors. If he could Thanos snap them all to dust what would he really lose? Nothing. So far, nothing has given Smodur any reason to care about them, and after all the horrible stuff they pulled, Smodur's actions are tame by comparison. He attacked an enemy weapons research facility, and killed a prisoner of war... and the defectors mass murdered entire villages of people for literally no reason other then they could.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, that's the thing. Smodur had previously been portrayed as a consummate politician and a successful negotiator, for better or worse. However much he might think a bit of ruthlessness is justified, he should know how his allies are likely to react to his behaviour - especially Malice, who's been the Ash Imperator for about a decade if not more. In particular, he just unilaterally ruined a negotiation that Malice had risked her life to set up.

    For someone who's supposed to be good at diplomacy, at least by charr standards, that's an idiot ball move.

    What has Smodur ever actually negotiated himself though? The big thing usually accredited to him, the Ebonhawk Treaty, was almost entirely the work of Almorra, and Malice. He just likes taking the credit, something brought up in this very episode.

    Almorra and Malice were (among) the first to decide that a truce with humans was the better option and helped to persuade Smodur, but Smodur is the one who did the actual negotiating, directly or through delegates, since the region formerly known as Ascalon is Iron Legion territory. And he's made a fair few territorial concessions in the process.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    • He accepted help from Blood and Ash because he couldn't fight the ghosts, flame legion, and Asclonians on his own

    Pretty sure Smodur hasn't been alive, let alone Imperator, long enough to have been the one to have made that decision. The Blood-Ash-Iron alliance goes back pretty much to the Plains of Golghein.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 9, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Almorra and Malice were (among) the first to decide that a truce with humans was the better option and helped to persuade Smodur, but Smodur is the one who did the actual negotiating, directly or through delegates, since the region formerly known as Ascalon is Iron Legion territory. And he's made a fair few territorial concessions in the process.

    Ive never gotten this impression. Everything stated about how the treaty came to bee puts it in Almorra and Malice's hands. All Smodur is ever stated to have done is make a few token appeasement efforts, like freeing the human prisoners in the Black Citadel, and singing the paper.

    Pretty sure Smodur hasn't been alive, let alone Imperator, long enough to have been the one to have made that decision. The Blood-Ash-Iron alliance goes back pretty much to the Plains of Golghein.

    I wasn't talking about the general Alliance between the three.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

    Pragmatism is seeking effectiveness. Smodur thinks it's effective to kill them, he orders it.

    yep...4 dead losers over a steady alliance. he could even just had done it LATER, and in SECRET. this isnt leadership, its a clown show
    you want to follow him, go for it. i doubt many will join you
    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

    Or the alliance would have never happened. You can't know.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

    Pragmatism is seeking effectiveness. Smodur thinks it's effective to kill them, he orders it.

    yep...4 dead losers over a steady alliance. he could even just had done it LATER, and in SECRET. this isnt leadership, its a clown show
    you want to follow him, go for it. i doubt many will join you
    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

    Yeah, that's the thing. Smodur had previously been portrayed as a consummate politician and a successful negotiator, for better or worse. However much he might think a bit of ruthlessness is justified, he should know how his allies are likely to react to his behaviour - especially Malice, who's been the Ash Imperator for about a decade if not more. In particular, he just unilaterally ruined a negotiation that Malice had risked her life to set up.

    For someone who's supposed to be good at diplomacy, at least by charr standards, that's an idiot ball move.

    You're mostly true.

    but he made it clear, that he is totally ruthless, and a moron. history is full of countries, that had leaders like that
    those countries always get shafted. always.
    following him is a sure way to a full blown disaster

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    One thing to note is that Smodur has always done things based on what he feels like he NEEDS to do to survive.

    • He accepted help from Blood and Ash because he couldn't fight the ghosts, flame legion, and Asclonians on his own
    • He accepted the treaty with humanity because the siege against Ebonhawke had gone nowhere in hundreds of years, and he needed those forces on the other fronts
    • He agreed to help fight Mordremoth because it was made clear no one nation could stand on its own

    You know what Smodur doesn't need? Ryland, the Steel Warband, or the defectors. If he could Thanos snap them all to dust what would he really lose? Nothing. So far, nothing has given Smodur any reason to care about them, and after all the horrible stuff they pulled, Smodur's actions are tame by comparison. He attacked an enemy weapons research facility, and killed a prisoner of war... and the defectors mass murdered entire villages of people for literally no reason other then they could.

    The only difference is players did 1 fun instance with the Steel Warband and never saw the Dominion slaughter civilians.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

    I'm pretty sure you're the one with an extremely weak grasp on what 'pragmatic' means, or at least how 'pragmatism' generally plays out.

    Pragmatism is often resented because of how cold an calculated it feels. Pragmatists, as others in the thread have mentioned, seek efficiency and effectiveness for a particular goal, at the expense of all other priorities. Personal loyalty? Nope. Doing the "morally right" thing? Nope. Mercy, just as a general principle? Nope. The only thing that matters is, "is this the best way to get the job done?"

    You usually don't see pragmatists engaging in the first two behaviors you listed here, as such activity often creates more problems than it solves (definitely not what pragmatism is all about). Slavery could definitely be part of a pragmatist's package though, especially if it solves a critical labor shortage.

    You could probably poke back at this and say, "well a 'REAL pragmatic' would be able to use the cruelty of using traitors as dog food or target dummies to send a message, keep people in line!" Too bad you're the one already accusing Smodur of being a cartoon villain, even when his actions are far more sanitary and commonplace than your suggestions.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

    I'm pretty sure you're the one with an extremely weak grasp on what 'pragmatic' means, or at least how 'pragmatism' generally plays out.

    Pragmatism is often resented because of how cold an calculated it feels. Pragmatists, as others in the thread have mentioned, seek efficiency and effectiveness for a particular goal, at the expense of all other priorities. Personal loyalty? Nope. Doing the "morally right" thing? Nope. Mercy, just as a general principle? Nope. The only thing that matters is, "is this the best way to get the job done?"

    You usually don't see pragmatists engaging in the first two behaviors you listed here, as such activity often creates more problems than it solves (definitely not what pragmatism is all about). Slavery could definitely be part of a pragmatist's package though, especially if it solves a critical labor shortage.

    You could probably poke back at this and say, "well a 'REAL pragmatic' would be able to use the cruelty of using traitors as dog food or target dummies to send a message, keep people in line!" Too bad you're the one already accusing Smodur of being a cartoon villain, even when his actions are far more sanitary and commonplace than your suggestions.

    and many of the real dictators are not cartoonish at all then..okay
    pragmatic is what you typically see in experienced doctors, farmers and cops...they are there to do the job with the least fuzz and fallout
    they wont leave a half done job, but they certainly wont go the extra mile for good service either
    it doesnt matter anyway, since it was a dumb move for ANY kind of leader to do it this way

  • Sylari.9814Sylari.9814 Member ✭✭

    Seeing how much debate over his motivations this thread has stirred up has kind of made me go back and reconsider that maybe it's not just bad writing. There's been a lot of discussion over what's justified and what isn't with lots of different opinions, which to me says at least something is working rihgt.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylari.9814 said:
    Seeing how much debate over his motivations this thread has stirred up has kind of made me go back and reconsider that maybe it's not just bad writing. There's been a lot of discussion over what's justified and what isn't with lots of different opinions, which to me says at least something is working rihgt.

    SWTOR has a similar mission in the gunner story, the player is forced to chose between killing civilians , and disobeying a direct order from the general
    while it may be more realistic, it is also a form of entertainment, that very few people enjoy

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Almorra and Malice were (among) the first to decide that a truce with humans was the better option and helped to persuade Smodur, but Smodur is the one who did the actual negotiating, directly or through delegates, since the region formerly known as Ascalon is Iron Legion territory. And he's made a fair few territorial concessions in the process.

    Ive never gotten this impression. Everything stated about how the treaty came to bee puts it in Almorra and Malice's hands. All Smodur is ever stated to have done is make a few token appeasement efforts, like freeing the human prisoners in the Black Citadel, and singing the paper.

    Pretty sure Smodur hasn't been alive, let alone Imperator, long enough to have been the one to have made that decision. The Blood-Ash-Iron alliance goes back pretty much to the Plains of Golghein.

    I wasn't talking about the general Alliance between the three.

    You talked about 'accepting help from Blood and Ash because he couldn't fight ghosts, Flame Legion and Ascalonians on hos own'. That's an arrangement that's existed since before Smodur was even alive, let alone Imperator. He only 'accepted help' in the sense that he continued the policy of his predecessors.

    As for the rest... give yourself a refresher of how the charr hierarchy actually works.

    Almorra had no formal position in the charr hierarchy at all - as respected as she came to be for forming the Vigil, formally she was a gladium who left the hierarchy to pursue her own objective. At best, she was given leave to do so because her objective was considered to be compatible with the interests of the Imperators. At worst, she was technically a rogue agent, but the Imperators looked the other way because she was useful and respected. Either way, she has literally no power to negotiate on behalf of the charr.

    Malice has formal power, but not in the vicinity of Ebonhawke. That's Iron Legion territory. Each of the High Legions, with the possible exception of the dispossessed Flame Legion, is its own nation with its own territory. Ash, Iron, and Flame are allies, but each is an independent nation. Malice was in support of making peace with humans, but it's not her territory involved. It's Iron Legion's territory, it's Iron Legion that makes any concession that comes as part of the truce... which made it entirely Smodur's call.

    Malice and Almorra helped to arrange the meeting, but ultimately it's Smodur and his ambassadors who's been making the calls.

    And if you go looking around the Fields of Ruin and talk to the NPCs - there have been territorial concessions made. Basically everything outside the walls was Iron Legion territory before the truce. However long it might have taken for the treaty to be finalised, within a year of the truce there were Ebonhawke civilians settling as far north as the Blazeridge Steppes transition (and a military outpost north of the transition), many in abandoned Iron Legion war camps, and the charr outposts that remain are mostly either Sentinels guarding the Brand or part of the perimeter around the camps. None of these Ebonhawke civilians seem particularly concerned that they'll be kicked out short of a resumption of hostilities, so they're not going out to squat - these are territorial concessions that were ceded in the first year of hostilities. Meanwhile, we also have the beginnings of military cooperation arrangements between charr forces in the area and the Ebon Vanguard.

    Put simply, Malice doesn't have the jurisdiction to make these arrangements. It's not her turf. Just where her territory is hasn't been revealed (although there is some indication it's east of the Blazeridge somewhere), but the most she can do to control matters in Ascalon (outside of covert activity) is to threaten to withdraw support. Apart from the insurgents, Brand, and the attacks by harpies and ogres from the Blazeridge Mountains, everything happening from the walls of Ebonhawke to the Twin Sisters Crossing is happening because Smodur agreed to it.

    Almorra and Malice were among the first to buy into the idea of forming a truce with humans, but neither had any power to negotiate it. That was entirely on Smodur and his delegates.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    You talked about 'accepting help from Blood and Ash because he couldn't fight ghosts, Flame Legion and Ascalonians on hos own'. That's an arrangement that's existed since before Smodur was even alive, let alone Imperator. He only 'accepted help' in the sense that he continued the policy of his predecessors.

    There is no agreement ever stated to exist on such matters before that point, and several NPCs mention that Ash and Blood are in Ascalon due to Smodur himself. And the Plains of Golghein is only where the final battle of the Charr Rebellion took place. There is literally no stated lore about some agreement being made between the three Legion about dealing with the Ascalonians, ghosts, or Flame Legion remnants, or ANYTHING for that matter, at said battle. Hell, the Charr didn't even agree to not be ruled over by the Flame Legion there, they had already decided that before the battle at the Plains of Golghein(hence the rebellion that led to that battle). You seem to be confusing, and conflating, multiple, unrelated, events into one.

    As for the rest... give yourself a refresher of how the charr hierarchy actually works.

    1. Almost everything you said below this point really does nothing to prove anything beyond you believing in an ultra rigid, and wholly unrealistic, view of how any government works.
    2. The land offer was part of the " token appeasement efforts" mentioned earlier
    3. You also don't really seem to understand how to determine credit for ideas. Smodur may have been the one who agreed to all these things, just likes hes the one who signed the paper, but that doesn't make him the originator of said ideas. All Almorra and Malice would have had to do is, metaphorically speaking, pass the note to Smodur saying "look man, this is how you make this work", and all he has to do is follow it. that doesn't mean he did anything himself, beyond following directions given to him by someone else.

    They even suggest this in No Quarter itself. Smodur tries to go on about how HE is the one who made peace with the humans, but its Malice who brushes him off talking about how much he just LOVES to tell that story, with an obvious implication that she knows hes BSing constantly.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's been stated in multiple sources that the agreement between Ash, Blood, and Iron to support each other goes pretty much to the charr rebellion, and that was essentially a renegotiation of previous arrangements in the light of the overthrow of the Flame Legion. The legions have been cooperating against the common enemy of Ascalonians alive and dead back to before Guild Wars 1. (There's an article around, in fact, which states that the legions might have gone back to fighting amongst themselves if not for the common enemy of the Ascalonian ghosts of the Foefire.)

    Not my fault if you're ignorant about charr history, but when it comes to having the support of Blood and Ash forces in his territory, Smodur is just maintaining a policy set by some distant predecessor.

    As for the truce... now you're drawing a pretty long bow if you think Smodur was just taking advice from Malice and Almorra. He's not taking advice from Malice (if anything, he's almost working at cross purposes) in Drizzlewood Coast, so if you think he just let Malice dictate the terms of an agreement that involved ceding Iron Legion territory to a (former) enemy, there's still a discrepancy in characterisation there... if anything, a bigger one.

    As it happens, charr hierarchy is pretty clear-cut. Iron Legion territory is Iron Legion territory. Blood and Ash have forces there as part of an alliance, but they are there at Iron Legion's invitation and request, and while there, they're expected to follow the policies of the Iron Imperator (which is why, for instance, it was Smodur's troops and not Bangar's who brought Rytlock in during season 3 - Rytlock might be Blood Legion but formally he's seconded to Iron). For all intents and purposes, the charr legions are independent nations who have a military alliance to support one another. Now, there are means of influence outside of the formal hierarchy, but while both Malice and Almorra can give advice, they can't dictate terms.

    I don't think this discussion is worth trawling through all the disparate sources when you're clearly not bothering to do your research, but it's been pretty clear when the treaty negotiations were mentioned through the storyline that Smodur was where the buck stopped on the charr side of the negotiations.

    Malice's "you like to tell that story" line isn't a "you're claiming credit for something I did" it's a "so what, how is that relevant now".

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CAA.9653 said:
    Ehh, killing enemy solders, death penalty for treason, executing prisoners - sadly that is all too common in any war. But in then end, Bangar and Smolder will die, Rytlock or Crecia will become the new Imperator of the Blood Legion while the other returns to Tribute duties, Ryland will join the PC guild and become the new chosen one (e.g. Brahan) for their species/race. Personally, I like the dark turn the story is taking - more interesting than the kid stuff from the main story and early LS seasons.

    I would shot Ryland dead rather than take him with me. He seems to be a really kitten individual. He murdered Almorra Soulkeeper.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    I would shot Ryland dead rather than take him with me. He seems to be a really kitten individual. He murdered Almorra Soulkeeper.

    Uhh, it was Bangar who killed Almorra. Ryland argued AGAINST killing her.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    As for the truce... now you're drawing a pretty long bow if you think Smodur was just taking advice from Malice and Almorra. He's not taking advice from Malice (if anything, he's almost working at cross purposes) in Drizzlewood Coast, so if you think he just let Malice dictate the terms of an agreement that involved ceding Iron Legion territory to a (former) enemy, there's still a discrepancy in characterisation there... if anything, a bigger one.

    Not at all. As has been mentioned before. Smodur has always done what he believed he needed to do to survive, and to get the position of Khan-Ur. At this point, the only thing that really stood in his way from that, Bangar, is now a traitor to the Charr, and an enemy to everyone. To him, hes got it in the bag.

    • He asked for help from Blood and Ash to deal with all the problems in Ascalon because he just couldn't do it himself, and there was no way he was going to survive without said help.
    • He accepted to peace treaty with humanity in order to get forces off of that front, and onto the others, because those were more pressing, and having humanity as an ally bolsters his forces against the other threats in Ascalon, and secures his position more.
    • His willingness to accept Aurene in "Bound by Blood" was almost certainly because he sees the use of being on good terms with an Elder Dragon, and not because he actually cares about her as an individual.

    And in Drizzlewood he kills the traitors because, not only have they proven themselves untrustworthy, but he also doesn't need them to win. Likewise, he has every reason to kill Cinder because the Steel Warband are a powerful symbol among the Charr, and a potential threat to his position as Khan-Ur should they not agree to it. He, again, also doesn't need the help of the Dominion's traitor forces to succeed, so he has no reason to let them live.

    His character is wholly consistent. He makes allies with those he sees as necessary for survival, and doesn't with those he has no need for.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    I would shot Ryland dead rather than take him with me. He seems to be a really kitten individual. He murdered Almorra Soulkeeper.

    Uhh, it was Bangar who killed Almorra. Ryland argued AGAINST killing her.

    I checked the cinematic again, you're right. I forgot the last part. But I would still not trust Ryland and hand it over to the justice system.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    I would shot Ryland dead rather than take him with me. He seems to be a really kitten individual. He murdered Almorra Soulkeeper.

    Uhh, it was Bangar who killed Almorra. Ryland argued AGAINST killing her.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    As for the truce... now you're drawing a pretty long bow if you think Smodur was just taking advice from Malice and Almorra. He's not taking advice from Malice (if anything, he's almost working at cross purposes) in Drizzlewood Coast, so if you think he just let Malice dictate the terms of an agreement that involved ceding Iron Legion territory to a (former) enemy, there's still a discrepancy in characterisation there... if anything, a bigger one.

    Not at all. As has been mentioned before. Smodur has always done what he believed he needed to do to survive, and to get the position of Khan-Ur. At this point, the only thing that really stood in his way from that, Bangar, is now a traitor to the Charr, and an enemy to everyone. To him, hes got it in the bag.

    • He asked for help from Blood and Ash to deal with all the problems in Ascalon because he just couldn't do it himself, and there was no way he was going to survive without said help.
    • He accepted to peace treaty with humanity in order to get forces off of that front, and onto the others, because those were more pressing, and having humanity as an ally bolsters his forces against the other threats in Ascalon, and secures his position more.
    • His willingness to accept Aurene in "Bound by Blood" was almost certainly because he sees the use of being on good terms with an Elder Dragon, and not because he actually cares about her as an individual.

    And in Drizzlewood he kills the traitors because, not only have they proven themselves untrustworthy, but he also doesn't need them to win. Likewise, he has every reason to kill Cinder because the Steel Warband are a powerful symbol among the Charr, and a potential threat to his position as Khan-Ur should they not agree to it. He, again, also doesn't need the help of the Dominion's traitor forces to succeed, so he has no reason to let them live.

    His character is wholly consistent. He makes allies with those he sees as necessary for survival, and doesn't with those he has no need for.

    • He didn't have to ask for help for the problems in Ascalon because it was already the policy of the allied legions to assist each other (which, as far as we currently know, means assisting each other in Ascalon because that's where the main conflict was, but we do see evidence of Branded and ghosts as far north as Grothmar, and there may be threats in Ash territory we don't know about that the charr collaborate against).
    • Sure, he agreed to the peace treaty for pragmatic reasons, but he was the one calling the shots. Malice and Almorra may have supported the idea, but ultimately it was Smodur that was sitting across the table, Smodur making the concessions, and Smodur that made it happen in the end. He'd have a pretty poor case to be Khan-Ur if he was letting outside powers (and, yes, Malice technically counts as an outside power in Ascalon, let alone Almorra of the Vigil) dictate to him the terms of a treaty that involved his own domain.

    The inconsistency is that in the past, he's been a proponent of turning enemies into allies in order to strengthen his position and weaken his remaining enemies. At the parley, there was a potential opportunity to do exactly that... and Smodur destroyed it.

    His past portrayal made him really appear smarter than that, but here he's been carrying the proverbial idiot ball.

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think he's acting pretty pragmatic.

    He's not buying into the abject nonsense that redeeming a single traitor who just happens to be someone's kid will fix everything. He's manipulating the "commander" into doing things they wouldn't do of their own accord and getting results. He's playing to win.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    I think he's acting pretty pragmatic.

    He's not buying into the abject nonsense that redeeming a single traitor who just happens to be someone's kid will fix everything. He's manipulating the "commander" into doing things they wouldn't do of their own accord and getting results. He's playing to win.

    And in doing so, he's alienating every ally he has. That's not playing to win. That's setting himself up to lose.

    Malice says it in the episode: "No one here will ever bow to you". He's ticked off the Imperator of one legion and likely future Imperators of two more, along with at least one influential non-charr person of importance. His short-sightedness has torpedoed any chance he had of becoming Khan-Ur.

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    I think he's acting pretty pragmatic.

    He's not buying into the abject nonsense that redeeming a single traitor who just happens to be someone's kid will fix everything. He's manipulating the "commander" into doing things they wouldn't do of their own accord and getting results. He's playing to win.

    And in doing so, he's alienating every ally he has. That's not playing to win. That's setting himself up to lose.

    Malice says it in the episode: "No one here will ever bow to you". He's ticked off the Imperator of one legion and likely future Imperators of two more, along with at least one influential non-charr person of importance. His short-sightedness has torpedoed any chance he had of becoming Khan-Ur.

    Yes, you're right, everyone is going home now and stop fighting Jormag and Bangar. Oh, wait a minute, they won't!

    Maybe he doesn't care if some whiny kittens don't want to be his friends after the war has been won.

  • I may have missed someone else saying this, but a pragmatic would absolutely kill the traitors. Jormag is a clever and manipulative brainwasher. It would be fairly simple for to take anywhere from ten to a hundred Charr and have them return, then just blow up a city. Although on a personal note, I hope we get to see it. Sabotage could have been an interesting thing in HoT. Hope we get it here.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    I think he's acting pretty pragmatic.

    He's not buying into the abject nonsense that redeeming a single traitor who just happens to be someone's kid will fix everything. He's manipulating the "commander" into doing things they wouldn't do of their own accord and getting results. He's playing to win.

    And in doing so, he's alienating every ally he has. That's not playing to win. That's setting himself up to lose.

    Malice says it in the episode: "No one here will ever bow to you". He's ticked off the Imperator of one legion and likely future Imperators of two more, along with at least one influential non-charr person of importance. His short-sightedness has torpedoed any chance he had of becoming Khan-Ur.

    Yes, you're right, everyone is going home now and stop fighting Jormag and Bangar. Oh, wait a minute, they won't!

    Maybe he doesn't care if some whiny kittens don't want to be his friends after the war has been won.

    not only am i staying home, i am actually rooting for the dragons now. if you want peace in tyria, they are the ONLY viable choice.
    taking the story in this direction was a big mistake, i think they got inspired too much from GoT

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Smodur did nothing wrong. People feel he did because the way the story presents the other NPCs nonsensical opinions. I find it quite sad how many people fall for this obvious emotional manipulation. So Smodur has us blow up a few charr? I fail to see how this is a problem. Out in the open world, we slaughter them by the thousands, and that's okay? I guess we shouldn't have firebombed them but instead knocked on the door and chopped 'em to bits using good old elbow grease when they answer. His troops should applaud him for taking down an enemy threat without risk to their own life and limb.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:
    I may have missed someone else saying this, but a pragmatic would absolutely kill the traitors. Jormag is a clever and manipulative brainwasher. It would be fairly simple for to take anywhere from ten to a hundred Charr and have them return, then just blow up a city. Although on a personal note, I hope we get to see it. Sabotage could have been an interesting thing in HoT. Hope we get it here.

    yes, it was the smart thing to do. NOT smart was doing it in front of new allies. either he feels confident enough to not care about reactions, or he simply just forgot about it. neither are good leader qualities.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    I think he's acting pretty pragmatic.

    He's not buying into the abject nonsense that redeeming a single traitor who just happens to be someone's kid will fix everything. He's manipulating the "commander" into doing things they wouldn't do of their own accord and getting results. He's playing to win.

    And in doing so, he's alienating every ally he has. That's not playing to win. That's setting himself up to lose.

    Malice says it in the episode: "No one here will ever bow to you". He's ticked off the Imperator of one legion and likely future Imperators of two more, along with at least one influential non-charr person of importance. His short-sightedness has torpedoed any chance he had of becoming Khan-Ur.

    Yes, you're right, everyone is going home now and stop fighting Jormag and Bangar. Oh, wait a minute, they won't!

    Maybe he doesn't care if some whiny kittens don't want to be his friends after the war has been won.

    They'll keep fighting, but unless he plans to assassinate everyone in that room, he'll never become Khan-Ur. Bangar may or may not be defeated in the end, but Smodur has already lost, and what did he gain by murdering a prisoner in the middle of a negotiation? Nothing significant.

  • Finalfreefall.8247Finalfreefall.8247 Member ✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    yes, it was the smart thing to do. NOT smart was doing it in front of new allies. either he feels confident enough to not care about reactions, or he simply just forgot about it. neither are good leader qualities.

    He's a Charr. They're prickly, standoffish, and publicly exult a 250-year old genocide campaign. This is entirely in line with how they worked in the past, and should be expected behavior as far as his allies are concerned. It's like running into an Asura crisis and expecting it to be solved with spiders instead of a random science project.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    They'll keep fighting, but unless he plans to assassinate everyone in that room, he'll never become Khan-Ur. Bangar may or may not be defeated in the end, but Smodur has already lost, and what did he gain by murdering a prisoner in the middle of a negotiation? Nothing significant.

    He gained a lot actually.

    Specifically, he brings the Steel Warband one step closer to being totally destroyed. Its mentioned more then one that the Steel Warband has the eyes of a lot of Charr, and serves as an inspiration to them, with Crecia mentioning how "Steel could turn the tide. Our people flock to you—they're your responsibility. You're their future."

    If there is any one group that could really rally the Charr against Smodur's attempt to become Khan-Ur, and take it away from him, its them. Bangar has gone rogue, Malice doesn't want the job, and Efram wouldn't get it simply due to being Flame Legion, besides maybe Crecia, the Steel Warband is the next biggest threat to his attempt at the the Khan-Ur title at this time.

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

    Pragmatism is seeking effectiveness. Smodur thinks it's effective to kill them, he orders it.

    yep...4 dead losers over a steady alliance. he could even just had done it LATER, and in SECRET. this isnt leadership, its a clown show
    you want to follow him, go for it. i doubt many will join you
    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

    no, a REAL pragmatic would have made sure that EVERYONE saw th executions, so their deaths would have the maximum effect.

    A clown show would be secret executions.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    They'll keep fighting, but unless he plans to assassinate everyone in that room, he'll never become Khan-Ur. Bangar may or may not be defeated in the end, but Smodur has already lost, and what did he gain by murdering a prisoner in the middle of a negotiation? Nothing significant.

    He gained a lot actually.

    Specifically, he brings the Steel Warband one step closer to being totally destroyed. Its mentioned more then one that the Steel Warband has the eyes of a lot of Charr, and serves as an inspiration to them, with Crecia mentioning how "Steel could turn the tide. Our people flock to you—they're your responsibility. You're their future."

    If there is any one group that could really rally the Charr against Smodur's attempt to become Khan-Ur, and take it away from him, its them. Bangar has gone rogue, Malice doesn't want the job, and Efram wouldn't get it simply due to being Flame Legion, besides maybe Crecia, the Steel Warband is the next biggest threat to his attempt at the the Khan-Ur title at this time.

    Malice doesn't want the job, and Efram won't get it due to being Flame Legion... but there's no need for there to be a Khan-Ur. There hasn't been one for centuries. If the de facto leaders of the other legions refuse to ever accept Smodur as Khan-Ur, he'll never become Khan-Ur.

    Short of replacing the leadership of all three legions, that's it. He's lost. One moment of impulsiveness, and the Khan-Urship will be forever outside of his reach. That's not pragmatism. That's stupidity.

    As for bringing the Steel Warband closer to being completely destroyed...

    Wars aren't won by killing the enemy. Wars are won by persuading the enemy to stop fighting. Yes, killing is a pretty effective way to stop someone from fighting... but it's not the only way, and it's not always the most efficient way.

    There was a chance to get Ryland to stop fighting... and maybe even start fighting for the other side (getting a well-respected commander of Bangar to switch sides would be a much more potent psychological coup than killing him could ever be). About the only thing keeping Ryland with Bangar previously was Ryland's belief in Bangar's legitimacy and the chain of command. Now, though, it's personal. Ryland has one of the most powerful motivators in existence - revenge for the murder of a loved one while said loved one was a helpless prisoner. There is a point to be made that Ryland should not have been allowed to walk out with Cinder... but there's refusing to let go of a bargaining chip, and then there's setting the bargaining chip on fire. Smodur did the latter. That's not pragmatism. That's stupidity.

    There was an opportunity, however slim it might have been, to get all the influence of the Steel Warband for him... while also keeping his allies on side. Now, he's pretty much ensured that Ryland will never switch sides, and that none of the current leaders of the other legions will support him to become Khan-Ur.

    He might still be on the winning side in the end, but as far as his ambitions are concerned? He's lost everything. He'll continue to be Imperator of the Iron Legion until he dies, but he will never be the Khan-Ur.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being pragmatic doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, just what you think is best.

    no, pragmatic is usually the way of least resistance, or a status quo solution
    "best" for who? you? your country/ state/fraction? giving your life in defense of your country is bad for you , but good for the rest of the population

    Pragmatism is seeking effectiveness. Smodur thinks it's effective to kill them, he orders it.

    yep...4 dead losers over a steady alliance. he could even just had done it LATER, and in SECRET. this isnt leadership, its a clown show
    you want to follow him, go for it. i doubt many will join you
    and a REAL pragmatic would had used them as dog food...or target dummies..or slaves in a mine

    no, a REAL pragmatic would have made sure that EVERYONE saw th executions, so their deaths would have the maximum effect.

    A clown show would be secret executions.

    read the definition. setting up a big show like that would take extra time and resources. not pragmatic at all.
    doing it in secret would have the desired effect (dead prisoners) WITHOUT much extra work and with much less risk
    THAT would be pragmatic

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Who would care about the "influence" of a failed warband's remaining 2 members whose turncoat conversion was effected at knife point with half of them in captivity. The notion that this would have any effect at all on the war is preposterous beyond reason. The more likely resulting sentiment would be: "Oh, the oh-so mighty Steel Warband was soundly defeated and now these two treacherous pups bowed their heads to a new master. Any charr worth their salt would've had the dignity to die in battle instead".