*Spoilers* If you could change One moment in the entire story of GW2, what would it be? *Spoilers* - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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*Spoilers* If you could change One moment in the entire story of GW2, what would it be? *Spoilers*

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  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Then excuse me but I'm not understanding what you mean.
    I read the link and the conversation mentioned in your previous post occurs after she creates the bubble she shows in the video, so I'm really not understanding the connection between Guardian Magic with what she does initially.

    You can visually see that the dome is the combination of having the purple segmented dome effect of Feedback, and the blue smooth dome effect of Sanctuary. This is more visible in Lake Doric or the DR story instances than the fast-action shots of the cinematic.

    The smaller barriers she actives are the same - there's mesmer puple and guardian blue in all of them (and the visual shape is even that of Wall of Reflection).

    And as she establishes, these weren't created and maintained by her on the fly, but defenses that were prepared beforehand. She might not have even made the spells in the first place, given how many mesmers are in her employ.

    Now I understand your speech, thanks for the explanation.

    There is a difference between the barriers and the bubble, when Jennah is placing the barriers, she asks us to help her during the positioning instead the evocation of the bubble seemed like a spell, I don't think it takes longer to place a small barrier instead of one bubble that covers a city.

    It is specified that they are outside the chamber, it refers to the barriers not to the bubble.

    However i would not dwell much on the visual effects, abilities or colors of the abilities that Anet decides to give to the NPCs, for example Trahearne, was a Necromancer but after obtaining Caladbolg he could also use Guardian skills, Rytlock was a warrior but he used Sword / Pistol, maybe it's the same for Jennah.

  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

    I would change the one death of the pact commander. For races other than human, the death is worthless. For humans however what the hay, let them deal with the scarab plague like Lord Faren did.

    Renegade Rework - A fan-made project including artwork and Wiki

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72196/become-renegade-the-greatsword-wielding-revenant#latest <<<----

    Awesome thread, made by DonArkanio.6419 , a revenant rework.

    Make sure to compliment him for all his hard work!!!

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    There is a difference between the barriers and the bubble, when Jennah is placing the barriers, she asks us to help her during the positioning instead the evocation of the bubble seemed like a spell, I don't think it takes longer to place a small barrier instead of one bubble that covers a city.

    The speed in which she can activate such a massive spell shows that it was being prepared beforehand though. What you said only supports what I'm saying.

    However i would not dwell much on the visual effects, abilities or colors of the abilities that Anet decides to give to the NPCs, for example Trahearne, was a Necromancer but after obtaining Caladbolg he could also use Guardian skills, Rytlock was a warrior but he used Sword / Pistol, maybe it's the same for Jennah.

    That was Caladbolg not Trahearne though. You can wield Caladbolg yourself and get those same skills yourself. When Trahearne uses his own magic - even after obtaining Caladbolg - it appears as all (non-Scourge) necromancy does. Black with dark green mixed in. This is most evident during the Knight of the Thorn plotline where you face Trahearne in the Dream - unlike when fighting Riannoc or the vision of yourself, when fighting Trahearne he uses reaper greatsword skills mixed in with Caladbolg skills and minion skills.

    And Rytlock is a poor explanation because those are just weapons he uses - he never uses anything but revenant-colored magic later on, or Sohothin-colored magic.

    ANet has actually been very consistent in the coloration of magic, associating it properly to profession or elite specialization by colors. Every mesmer's abilities are always the same light purple - the only exception is Xera, who has some red mixed in due to bloodstone magic.

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  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    There is a difference between the barriers and the bubble, when Jennah is placing the barriers, she asks us to help her during the positioning instead the evocation of the bubble seemed like a spell, I don't think it takes longer to place a small barrier instead of one bubble that covers a city.

    The speed in which she can activate such a massive spell shows that it was being prepared beforehand though. What you said only supports what I'm saying.

    However i would not dwell much on the visual effects, abilities or colors of the abilities that Anet decides to give to the NPCs, for example Trahearne, was a Necromancer but after obtaining Caladbolg he could also use Guardian skills, Rytlock was a warrior but he used Sword / Pistol, maybe it's the same for Jennah.

    That was Caladbolg not Trahearne though. You can wield Caladbolg yourself and get those same skills yourself. When Trahearne uses his own magic - even after obtaining Caladbolg - it appears as all (non-Scourge) necromancy does. Black with dark green mixed in. This is most evident during the Knight of the Thorn plotline where you face Trahearne in the Dream - unlike when fighting Riannoc or the vision of yourself, when fighting Trahearne he uses reaper greatsword skills mixed in with Caladbolg skills and minion skills.

    And Rytlock is a poor explanation because those are just weapons he uses - he never uses anything but revenant-colored magic later on, or Sohothin-colored magic.

    ANet has actually been very consistent in the coloration of magic, associating it properly to profession or elite specialization by colors. Every mesmer's abilities are always the same light purple - the only exception is Xera, who has some red mixed in due to bloodstone magic.

    Even if she had prepared it in advance, it does not change that it is her magic and not a barrier like those that we help her to position later, in the video clearly shows that it starts from her.
    It is assumed that that barrier was kept active until the end of the siege so I don't rule out that it was later helped by Mesmers and Guardians to keep it active, but that's not my point.

    This is my thought and it is irrelevant in reasoning but if magic can be taught every character would hypothetically be able to use any magic.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Rytlock was a warrior but he used Sword / Pistol

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And Rytlock is a poor explanation because those are just weapons he uses - he never uses anything but revenant-colored magic later on, or Sohothin-colored magic.

    Isn't his pistol just the Charr Racial Hidden Pistol?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Even if she had prepared it in advance, it does not change that it is her magic and not a barrier like those that we help her to position later, in the video clearly shows that it starts from her.
    It is assumed that that barrier was kept active until the end of the siege so I don't rule out that it was later helped by Mesmers and Guardians to keep it active, but that's not my point.

    The barrier was activated with guardian magic though, and preparing it in advance does change things a lot. In theory, with sufficient preparation and resources, anyone should be capable of doing what Jennah did. So if she prepared it beforehand - even ignoring the guardian magic mixed in - then that severely diminishes the claim that she's OP since who knows how much preparation and resources went into the spell before its activation.

    This is my thought and it is irrelevant in reasoning but if magic can be taught every character would hypothetically be able to use any magic.

    Learning magic is compared to learning a master's degree. You can get multiple degrees, but it takes time and effort - which I kinda doubt Jennah has as queen. Plus, people have natural affinities for certain types of magic.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Rytlock was a warrior but he used Sword / Pistol

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And Rytlock is a poor explanation because those are just weapons he uses - he never uses anything but revenant-colored magic later on, or Sohothin-colored magic.

    Isn't his pistol just the Charr Racial Hidden Pistol?

    No, its a proper off-hand pistol, and you can tell from skill animations that he uses the thief pistol 1 auto-attack with it. He only uses it when enemies aren't in melee range, and only during the dungeons (maybe PS too?).

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  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Even if she had prepared it in advance, it does not change that it is her magic and not a barrier like those that we help her to position later, in the video clearly shows that it starts from her.
    It is assumed that that barrier was kept active until the end of the siege so I don't rule out that it was later helped by Mesmers and Guardians to keep it active, but that's not my point.

    The barrier was activated with guardian magic though, and preparing it in advance does change things a lot. In theory, with sufficient preparation and resources, anyone should be capable of doing what Jennah did. So if she prepared it beforehand - even ignoring the guardian magic mixed in - then that severely diminishes the claim that she's OP since who knows how much preparation and resources went into the spell before its activation.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ogre_Revolt
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Chief_Kronon

    It isn't the first time she has performed such a large spell, she was able to create an illusion of kralkatorrik during the Ogre Revolt, and she had no way of preparing them for battle.
    What this character is capable of doing is definitely out of the ordinary.

    You assume that there is Guardian Magic based on the shades of color that the barrier has seen from Lake Doric and the shape of the barriers that you place later, but there is no confirmation that it was actually used or that the barrier has been positioned previously and not only the small ones, not even in the dialogues, what we know for sure is that she activates the barrier and even if it was only initially that was her magic.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    It isn't the first time she has performed such a large spell, she was able to create an illusion of kralkatorrik during the Ogre Revolt, and she had no way of preparing them for battle.

    I commented on that situation earlier in the thread. Jennah did have time to prepare for it - and assistance from Anise. This time was provided by Logan, and wasn't some instant casting. The battle likely took a long time, hours even.

    What this character is capable of doing is definitely out of the ordinary.

    Kasmeer stripped an illusion empowered by multiple krait. Koro Sagewind created an illusion the size of a giant tower, and another time created an illusionary army. Kitah created an illusionary army. Xera literally warped the fabric of reality in an entire castle.

    Grand magical feats aren't all that rare, truth be told. Especially for mesmers. Yes, Jennah is stated to be a powerful mesmer - but her actions are no more grand than other powerful mesmers like Anise and those I mentioned.

    You assume that there is Guardian Magic based on the shades of color that the barrier has seen from Lake Doric and the shape of the barriers that you place later, but there is no confirmation that it was actually used or that the barrier has been positioned previously and not only the small ones, not even in the dialogues, what we know for sure is that she activates the barrier and even if it was only initially that was her magic.

    As seen from every time its shown, even in the cinematic.

    Not everything that's canon lore has to be explicitly said through dialogue - ANet does a lot of visual storytelling in the game. Probably more than told storytelling, in fact.

    My point is that we do not know that it was her own magic. It could be, but given the presence of a double barrier the moment its activated, and the fact she had multiple barriers prepared for beforehand, it seems probable to not be.

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  • On the original question of what to change ...

    • I have no problems with Trahearne (i only play Sylvari), but he didn't have to die. I kind of like the 'desk job'-solution mentioned earlier.
    • Remember the priory/vigil/whisper mentor's sacrifice.... make you remember them when visiting Hoelbrak/Grove/Priory/Fort.... something (or on the anniversary of th date you originally did the claw island instance). That death had a lot more emotional impact than the others I believe, and shouldn't be forgotten by my toon.
    • Make Rytlock actually use Sohotin's power. Replaying the personal story, I was amazed risen got actually killed by the forementioned mentor and Trahearne. As opposed to Rytlock running around with you in the drizzlewood doing absolutely nothing while my face gets eaten.....
  • The Ebonhawke Treaty.

    As someone who's been killing Charr since 2006, one of my main gripes with GW2 is how everyone's holding hands singing Kumbaya. Specifically the Charr. They were a kitten enemy in GW1 that I loved to fight. No other enemy type in any game since has given me that same feeling as fighting Charr. They were awesome. GW2 really neutered them, and put them on leashes to the point where they don't ( to me ) resemble those in the first game outside of cosmetically. I honestly think that introducing them as a playable race and implementing the Ebonhawke Treaty really takes away a great side enemy for the Humans in core Tyria. In a way it feels wrong for them not to be enemies due to the history of their wars.

    Rytlock Brimstone: You lost this war long ago, and we'll kill you until you get the point!
    Rytlock Brimstone: We burned down his kingdom and buried the ashes! Make him remember that day.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Forward, legions! Finish him.

    Very few things in video games give me chills, but when Rytlock says the above in the first story instance for Charr characters, I feel actual emotion when hearing it. Sympathy for Baradin and Ascalonians, and anger towards the Charr. It's very powerful I think, for those of us who's been here since GW1. But now that Charr-ness from GW1's been replaced by a bromance with Logan, fanfiction, and a Charr who writes about Charr/Human sex. I hate it.

  • one thing I would change:

    Instead of murdering her sister to keep Faolain from torturing her, Caithe would discover she has a brain and stood up against Faolain. No F. no nightmare court. All is well.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    one thing I would change:

    Instead of murdering her sister to keep Faolain from torturing her, Caithe would discover she has a brain and stood up against Faolain. No F. no nightmare court. All is well.

    Unless Caithe killed Faolain there and then, Faolain wouldn't have stopped persueing Wynne for that secret. Which simply wouldn't be realistic - I think you underestimate the influence an abusive partner for years can have on an individual.

    And Faolain wasn't the cause of the Nightmare Court's founding - she took over it after Cadeyrn established it and drew Faolain further into Nightmare.

    So even if Caithe was able to stand up to Faolain, the only outcomes would be:

    A. Faolain tracked down and tortured Wynne without Caithe present, resulting in Faolain and the Nightmare Court knowing they're actually mordrem for a decade before Scarlet would wake Mordremoth. This could result in Mordremoth influencing them sooner and effectively turning all sylvari into mordrem guard before the Pact fights Zhaitan resulting in a loss against Zhaitan because no Trahearne and sylvari forces to perform the cleansing ritual, thus Zhaitan isn't in a weakened state.

    B. Faolain is killed there, and the Nightmare Court is ran by Cadeyrn instead, nothing else changes except no Faolain killing Eir in HoT and the ramifications of that event.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    B. Faolain is killed there, and the Nightmare Court is ran by Cadeyrn instead, nothing else changes except no Faolain killing Eir in HoT and the ramifications of that event.

    just not having to listen to whiney Braham for 1.5 seasons of living world would have made it worth it.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Copestetic.5174 said:
    The Ebonhawke Treaty.

    100% agree. You said a lot of cool stuff here, but I feel disingenuous quoting all of it because I didn't play GW1 myself.

    However, very early on as a GW2 player it was made pretty obvious to me that there was a long history of animosity and open warfare between humans and charr, and that for many, the wounds still feel fresh. I started reading lore and watching videos on the issue, and I also developed a great sense of dissatisfaction with the super kumbaya path the game's writing chose. It would make a lot more sense to me if the negotiated peace was something that the political leadership of both sides settled on, but still engaged in an active cold war against each other. The cold war scenario offers a ton of storytelling alternatives, given the proxy warfare, espionage, and heavy R&D (arms races have a way of pushing technological progress) intrinsic to cold war scenarios. There would also be more simmering tension at front line or armistice line outposts, especially those farthest removed from the respective capitals.

    In particular, I would have liked another branching path at the Orders phase of the personal story. All players would be exposed to the Orders the same way, so you'd get a chance to see unified races working together under the same Order and get your kumbaya moment. If you want more of that, you can proceed with the personal story as we know it - join an order, get comfy in your Properly Diverse workplace, and hold hands. But I would have liked to see:

    (1) for charr and human: the option to be disgusted at the kumbaya, and a refusal to join an Order at all because of it;
    (2) for norn: the option to laugh off the concept of joining an Order and pursue legend-building more independently, as befits norn tradition; and
    (3) for asura: the option to maintain krewe independence and form some other kind of relationship (such as contractor) with the Orders, or none at all.

    As for how the Commander could be made to fit into the Pact without being a member of any Order, I think some minor rewriting would have made it all okay. Trahearne was picked for the Marshal post specifically because he was an Order outsider, so I don't think it would have made much of a difference to have the Commander be similarly lacking in affiliation.

    All that being said, I absolutely love the new map because we get to fight properly militarized charr, rather than the ragtag renegades from the Field of Ruin. When facing groups of veteran Dominion units that have a good mix of combat types, I actually have to put some effort into doing more than 2-3 button presses on a glass cannon build. Granted, it just moves from 2-3 buttons to maybe 4-5 buttons, but it feels like a big step up from the usual, and I appreciate it.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    So even if Caithe was able to stand up to Faolain, the only outcomes would be:

    A. Faolain tracked down and tortured Wynne without Caithe present, resulting in Faolain and the Nightmare Court knowing they're actually mordrem for a decade before Scarlet would wake Mordremoth. This could result in Mordremoth influencing them sooner and effectively turning all sylvari into mordrem guard before the Pact fights Zhaitan resulting in a loss against Zhaitan because no Trahearne and sylvari forces to perform the cleansing ritual, thus Zhaitan isn't in a weakened state.

    B. Faolain is killed there, and the Nightmare Court is ran by Cadeyrn instead, nothing else changes except no Faolain killing Eir in HoT and the ramifications of that event.

    Yes, maybe. However, I think Faolain did not lie in HoT when she talked about the Nightmare Court. They were not very happy about being anyone's minions, be it the Pale Tree or Mordremoth. Actually, Faolain herself seemed to agree more with the Tree than with the Dragon in the end.
    Maybe C. actually knowing at least part of the truth would have changed the Nightmare Court earlier. Knowing about the "true nature" of the sylvari was their main goal, so there - goal accomplished. From there, they could have decided what they wanted to do with the knowledge. And while I do believe some Courtiers would have sided with Mordremoth, for personal reasons mostly and in order to get / keep power, I think the Court itself as we know it wouldn't have agreed to be its slaves. The Nightmare Court still existed at the end of HoT, but switched sides and helped the Pact. Since then, they've become pretty quiet.

    Right now I'm replaying LS2. To me, Caithe having known about all that for 20 years or so and never having discussed it with anyone, not even the Pale Tree apparently, really seems like a flaw in the story. Even stranger how she - the only one who knew anything and who could have been at least somewhat prepared mentally - fell for Mordremoth's influence so easily and had so much trouble deciding whom to trust throughout LS2 / HoT. If Wynne had died just recently, okay. But all that happened so long ago. It's really hard to believe that someone as intelligent as Caithe just... kind of ignored all the info and did not do anything with it, except keep it a secret.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Right now I'm replaying LS2. To me, Caithe having known about all that for 20 years or so and never having discussed it with anyone, not even the Pale Tree apparently, really seems like a flaw in the story. Even stranger how she - the only one who knew anything and who could have been at least somewhat prepared mentally - fell for Mordremoth's influence so easily and had so much trouble deciding whom to trust throughout LS2 / HoT. If Wynne had died just recently, okay. But all that happened so long ago. It's really hard to believe that someone as intelligent as Caithe just... kind of ignored all the info and did not do anything with it, except keep it a secret.

    Well, she was told the rammifications of the knowledge of Sylvari being Mordremoth's minions becoming wide-spread by Wynne. It could have caused the end of the Sylvari if other races found out and decided to exterminate the Dragon Minions. Heck, HoT shows how quickly many people turned on the Sylvari even after so many years of gaining trust to be in positions of respect.

    As far as Mordremoth's influence on Caithe, she mentions in Bloodstone Fen, during LW3 that she was having a hard time telling apart Morty's influence and the call of her Wyld Hunt. Given that both would have been urging her to do things and presumably they'd both feel very similar (A call from Morty would likely happen from the Dream as that's where his power lies, hence going their to destroy his mind at the end of HoT. While the call of the Wyld Hunt also comes from the Dream)

    Also, what could she have done with it? Was she going to single handidly go and kill Morty and prevent him from seizing control over Sylvari? Was she going to tell other Sylvari and risk them panicing or questioning their Wyld Hunt as the call of Morty (Potentially making them more susceptible to his call when he eventually awakened)? Was she going to tell other races and risk them turning on the entire Sylvari race?

    Let's not forget the fact that the awakening of Mordremoth is a direct result of a Sylvari having being coerced by his call. That of course being Scarlet.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2020

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    So even if Caithe was able to stand up to Faolain, the only outcomes would be:

    A. Faolain tracked down and tortured Wynne without Caithe present, resulting in Faolain and the Nightmare Court knowing they're actually mordrem for a decade before Scarlet would wake Mordremoth. This could result in Mordremoth influencing them sooner and effectively turning all sylvari into mordrem guard before the Pact fights Zhaitan resulting in a loss against Zhaitan because no Trahearne and sylvari forces to perform the cleansing ritual, thus Zhaitan isn't in a weakened state.

    B. Faolain is killed there, and the Nightmare Court is ran by Cadeyrn instead, nothing else changes except no Faolain killing Eir in HoT and the ramifications of that event.

    Yes, maybe. However, I think Faolain did not lie in HoT when she talked about the Nightmare Court. They were not very happy about being anyone's minions, be it the Pale Tree or Mordremoth. Actually, Faolain herself seemed to agree more with the Tree than with the Dragon in the end.

    Sure, but that's after 20 years of independence. When Cadeyrn formed the Nightmare Court, the goal was to become "their true selves". Faolain usurped him and the Nightmare Court had splinter factions formed (as seen in TA explorable). Some Nightmare Courtiers likely retained the original beliefs and became Mordrem Guards (it's suggested that Stavemaster Aryn was a Nightmare Courtier, maybe he was one such figure).

    But if the Nightmare Court knew, upon its founding, that their true selves were minions of Mordremoth, that could easily change their perception that grew under Faolain's rule. Were Cadeyrn alive for HoT, I bet he would have been a willing convert.

    Maybe C. actually knowing at least part of the truth would have changed the Nightmare Court earlier. Knowing about the "true nature" of the sylvari was their main goal, so there - goal accomplished. From there, they could have decided what they wanted to do with the knowledge. And while I do believe some Courtiers would have sided with Mordremoth, for personal reasons mostly and in order to get / keep power, I think the Court itself as we know it wouldn't have agreed to be its slaves. The Nightmare Court still existed at the end of HoT, but switched sides and helped the Pact. Since then, they've become pretty quiet.

    Hard to say, since we got so little of Cadeyrn who was the true catalyst for the Nightmare Court's formation. On one hand, there's your possibility, however, I don't think that would occur. What little we got of Cadeyrn was easily showing that he was prideful and jealous of the Firstborn. He wanted to be special, he wanted to be first, and he wanted his mother's attention to be on him just as much as it was on the Firstborn, and forming the Nightmare Court was his method of doing that. If he knew that sylvari came ultimately from Mordremoth, I feel that he would have turned his preachings, devotion, and attention from "look at me mom!" to "look at me grandpa!" and basically do what Scarlet and Aerin did, but forming an entire cult behind him in the process. Add on to the fact that the Nightmare Court twists people by torturing them, and you get 20 years of Mordrem Guard devotion, no doubt resulting in Mordremoth's rise before even Kralkatorrik's.

    And with how fast Mordremoth spread his vines in Season 2, there'd be no way for the Pact to form to take on Zhaitan.

    Right now I'm replaying LS2. To me, Caithe having known about all that for 20 years or so and never having discussed it with anyone, not even the Pale Tree apparently, really seems like a flaw in the story. Even stranger how she - the only one who knew anything and who could have been at least somewhat prepared mentally - fell for Mordremoth's influence so easily and had so much trouble deciding whom to trust throughout LS2 / HoT. If Wynne had died just recently, okay. But all that happened so long ago. It's really hard to believe that someone as intelligent as Caithe just... kind of ignored all the info and did not do anything with it, except keep it a secret.

    Caithe went to the Pale Tree immediately as she explains in the final instance after that cinematic / before the Shadow of the Dragon attack:

    Pact Commander: Does the Pale Tree know what happened with Wynne?
    Caithe: Of course. She felt Wynne's death, and the Dream revealed what had happened. I've never seen her so heartbroken. Over time she forgave me, though I don't think she ever forgave Faolain.

    It was the Pale Tree's decision to keep it a secret, out of fear of how sylvari and others would react. To quote the Complete Art of Guild Wars book (page 158): "She sought to protect her young from the grasp of her maker, and so she kept the sylvari ignorant of their origins." While the plan didn't work in the end, this is because of the Shadow of the Dragon's attack on the Pale Tree weakening her - as the note from Aerin said: "...leader will die. The rest will fall in line. We will not fail." The leader being the Pale Tree. The Pale Tree's weakened state is what allowed Mordremoth to seep into the minds of unsuspecting sylvari.

    As to Caithe being tricked by Mordremoth - that's kind of the entire idea behind Mordremoth's subtleness with how it converted the first wave of sylvari. Mordremoth was cunning as hell; the Pale Tree being purified wasn't part of his plan, nor was Scarlet touching his mind via Omadd's Machine, but he made expert use of both situations - even to the point of exposing his corruption to the world before anyone realized it via the Toxic Alliance. His first acts of turning sylvari was implanting thoughts in such a subtle motion that most sylvari couldn't tell that they weren't their own. He began doing this widespread since The World Summit instance, but he could have been influencing Caithe alone for an unknown period of time - after all, Scarlet knew Caithe's secret, which means Mordremoth knew Caithe's secret (it's likely through Mordremoth that Scarlet knew), which in turn means that Mordremoth could have been working into Caithe for a very long time to help ensure his plans come to fruition.

    Truth be told, the only thing that Caithe or the Pale Tree could have done better was confide in a small, close knit group of trusted individuals who could research Mordremoth's weakness while it slept. But based on Season 3, Elder Dragons are effectively invulnerable during hibernation, so it would only have resulted in monitoring Mordremoth's sleeping state and having battleplan ready that probably wouldn't have been sufficient and end up needing massive amounts of Commander-style improvisation-on-the-go.

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  • Rifton.7346Rifton.7346 Member ✭✭

    Don´t send the pact air fleet into Maguma without sufficient ground coverage.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    Having Malyck and his tree show up in HoT. Hes one of the few plot threads in GW2 of any sort of significance that isn't resolved, or has a logical "in road" into the story to be resolved.

  • BobbyT.7192BobbyT.7192 Member ✭✭✭

    Not have our mentors die during the battle of claw island.

  • Entropo.1524Entropo.1524 Member ✭✭

    imma sacrfice trahearn instead of tybalt.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Right now I'm replaying LS2. To me, Caithe having known about all that for 20 years or so and never having discussed it with anyone, not even the Pale Tree apparently, really seems like a flaw in the story. Even stranger how she - the only one who knew anything and who could have been at least somewhat prepared mentally - fell for Mordremoth's influence so easily and had so much trouble deciding whom to trust throughout LS2 / HoT. If Wynne had died just recently, okay. But all that happened so long ago. It's really hard to believe that someone as intelligent as Caithe just... kind of ignored all the info and did not do anything with it, except keep it a secret.

    Well, she was told the rammifications of the knowledge of Sylvari being Mordremoth's minions becoming wide-spread by Wynne. It could have caused the end of the Sylvari if other races found out and decided to exterminate the Dragon Minions. Heck, HoT shows how quickly many people turned on the Sylvari even after so many years of gaining trust to be in positions of respect.

    True. However, both the Tree and Caithe are clever individuals and they had ~20 years to come up with something. I only had 2 years so far, maybe in about 2040 I'll have found an alternative solution. XD There has to be something they could have done without going to the extremes of either telling the whole world everything and doing absolutely nothing until after many Sylvari turned.

    As far as Mordremoth's influence on Caithe, she mentions in Bloodstone Fen, during LW3 that she was having a hard time telling apart Morty's influence and the call of her Wyld Hunt. Given that both would have been urging her to do things and presumably they'd both feel very similar (A call from Morty would likely happen from the Dream as that's where his power lies, hence going their to destroy his mind at the end of HoT. While the call of the Wyld Hunt also comes from the Dream)

    This is what I don't quite get, because it's not any Sylvari we're talking about, but Caithe specifically. Who is the only one who could have been prepared for a situation like that. OTOH, maybe it was really her newly forming Wyld Hunt getting in the way. On the spot I come up with Laranthir, Canach, Faolain and Trahearne who were all far less confused than Caithe was. Laranthir had never had a Wyld Hunt, I don't know about Canach and Faolain but might be the same for them, and Trahearne's and Caithe's original Wyld Hunts had been finished. However, Caithe did get a new Wyld Hunt that must have started sometime around HoT, with the egg. Hm....

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Truth be told, the only thing that Caithe or the Pale Tree could have done better was confide in a small, close knit group of trusted individuals who could research Mordremoth's weakness while it slept.

    Close-knit group... and Caithe... Okay, I do see the problem here. :lol:

    I guess to me the issue here is really the long time period. If it hadn't been revealed to be a memory from that far back, but all more recent, it would have been more believable, I suppose. Or if Caithe had gotten some kind of magical amnesia in order to keep the secret well-protected, whatever.

  • moonstarmac.4603moonstarmac.4603 Member ✭✭✭

    Demmi wouldn't die. She and Valette would both work for Anise.

    Wolf Moonstar
    Dragon Council, Third Seat: Jade Sea Haven (Jade) Ehmry Bay
    Zen Phantom

  • Dan.9304Dan.9304 Member ✭✭

    @moonstarmac.4603 said:
    Demmi wouldn't die. She and Valette would both work for Anise.

    replace marj with demmi would be good. marj is a nothing character.

    Black Gate: [ViP]

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dan.9304 said:

    @moonstarmac.4603 said:
    Demmi wouldn't die. She and Valette would both work for Anise.

    replace marj with demmi would be good. marj is a nothing character.

    It's very ironic to me when people suggest Marjory should die, since she was originally a red shirt character in Season 1. The original Season 1 finale had Marjory dying, but the playerbase loved her character so much that ANet rewrote the S1 finale so that she would be injured to the point of a critical state but survive.

    Yet ever since HoT and on, people have been bashing her character and demanding her death. Just like they did with Trahearne.

    Braham's the same - loved in Season 1 and 2, and bashed constantly since.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It's very ironic to me when people suggest Marjory should die, since she was originally a red shirt character in Season 1. The original Season 1 finale had Marjory dying, but the playerbase loved her character so much that ANet rewrote the S1 finale so that she would be injured to the point of a critical state but survive.

    Yet ever since HoT and on, people have been bashing her character and demanding her death. Just like they did with Trahearne.

    Braham's the same - loved in Season 1 and 2, and bashed constantly since.

    Its funny, I HATED the B-Team cast all throughout S1 and 2 because they were utterly one note caricatures with no depth or real personality. I only liked them from around HoT onward because they actually started to get good.

    The thing most people cite as to why they hate Braham, Crack in the Ice, is actually what got me to like Braham at all.

  • The PC retaining the position as a Pact Commander. Imagining the perks and opportunities for new gameplay mechanics that could have opened up, that was a shot in the foot to me. Plus it seems off that my guildmates calls me commander even though none of them were from the Pact.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2020

    @cyberzombie.7348 said:
    The PC retaining the position as a Pact Commander. Imagining the perks and opportunities for new gameplay mechanics that could have opened up, that was a shot in the foot to me. Plus it seems off that my guildmates calls me commander even though none of them were from the Pact.

    What would you rather have them call you?
    Dragon Slayer?
    God Stomper?

    Poobah?