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Why Frost Legion instead of Icebrood Charr?

That doesn't make sense at all, those corrupted charr we fight are Icebrood minions of Jormag, not a Frost Legion as in a societal structure of the charr race. And on top of that, as usual comes the problem of: are the icebrood slaying potions/sigils working against "Frost Legion"?

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Comments

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When you say it makes no sense, do you deliberately ignore that Charr all sort themselves into Legions or..?

    I rather choose death.

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's kinda scary actually. Jormag has a well-organized "modern" army now. Quite a step up from a random assortment of monsters, primitives and constructs.

  • Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2020

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    That doesn't make sense at all, those corrupted charr we fight are Icebrood minions of Jormag, not a Frost Legion as in a societal structure of the charr race. And on top of that, as usual comes the problem of: are the icebrood slaying potions/sigils working against "Frost Legion"?

    "Icebrood" is a classification of the metamorphosis. Unlike Kralkatoric, Mordremoth, and Zaithan's minions - the Icebrood does in fact display signs of intelligence and individuality. They have to willingly give themselves up as far as I know from lore and the game. If a dragons voice is that sexy and warm, who wouldn't surrender to it?

    So... The sons of Svannir are a group of Norns that willingly followed Svannir's lead. You can actively find them trying to recruit in the beginning areas in fact.

    So it makes sense that Charr, would name themselves something they are familiar with and can rally to. Frost Legion.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2020

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    (Incidentally I find it interesting that Jormag was even able to attempt to corrupt the Commander, since they're technically already an elder dragon's champion and previously dragons have been unable to convert each other's minions. But maybe that's proof that our relationship with Aurene really is different - she hasn't done anything to change us and calling us her champion is just a formality and a reflection of the role we played in helping her become an elder dragon rather than a description of what we are. So we're still vulnerable to corruption by another dragon.)

    It's not elder dragon corruption per se. It's just persuading us using mind voice. There was no actual attempt to truly turn us into Icebrood yet, so we don;t now how that might have turned out.
    Remember also, that the commander can happen to be Sylvari, and thus immune to dragon corruption already. And that Aurene managed to "corrupt" Caithe that should have been supposed to be immune to this, so obviously there are some exceptions to the general rule as well (it's not like any dragon has actually explained how the corruption works to us, after all - there can be a ton of things we don't know about it).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    That doesn't make sense at all, those corrupted charr we fight are Icebrood minions of Jormag, not a Frost Legion as in a societal structure of the charr race.

    It does make perfect sense. Obviously, Bangar has united forces with Jormag (not aware that Jormag is using him and not the other way round). In order to satisfy his ego and aspired agenda (of becoming Imperator of a new Charr empire), he named his "altered" army the Frost Legion, in good old Charr tradition.

  • I might be grasping at straws, but I sort of got the impression that the "Frost Legion" is actually just a subset of Bangar's Dominion forces. Something about the way Varinia issued commands during the fight, "Engineers, attack!" and then "Frost Legion, attack!". It gave me the impression that the Frost Legion is a legion of "special forces" that are corrupted to become an elite unit while the rest of the Dominion armies stick to their old roles.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From a theme perspective : Because the Flame Legion is about to become a center piece : we've seen them gradually come back into the spotlight and grow in importance. I expect their presence will become pivotal against the Frost Legion, just how you'd fight off the frost with a fire. I suspect something will occur between Efram and Smodur, and that Efram will likely end up in a far more prominent spot than he currently is.

  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    It's kinda scary actually. Jormag has a well-organized "modern" army now.

    I could tell they were organized when they ignored everything and zerged my Commander.

    The Commander will end you.

  • Sublimatio.6981Sublimatio.6981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    When you say it makes no sense, do you deliberately ignore that Charr all sort themselves into Legions or..?

    those are not charr, they are dragon minions of jormag, known as icebrood. that's why it doesn't make sense. you have "branded charr" monster type, not "branded legion".

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    The Commander notes that the Ice Legion fight smarter than other icebrood. Maybe it's because they haven't undergone enough corruption to become mindless, or maybe it's because norn hunters and quaggan civilians never made great footsoldiers and strategists to begin with.

    its the latter. we see that with minions of zhaitan - there are more intelligent and cunning orrian zombies. they're still called risen.

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2020

    Why?

    Because of hype.

    When Icebrood Saga was first being announced for PAX, there was a countdown clock slowly showing the concept art of Jormag's icebrood army with an icebrood charr at the head. People thought the entire thing was an army of icebrood charr at first, and was dubbing it the Frost Legion. There was a ton of hype surrounding it, with tons of theorycrafting.

    It's pretty obvious that they took the name from that, and rewrote a bit to fit it. Otherwise, why would Crecia, the Commander, and Rytlock suddenly call it the Frost Legion too?

    Malice Swordshadow: You are not Khan-Ur. No one here will ever bow to you.
    Pact Commander: We've lost the bridge. And we met the Frost Legion.
    Crecia Stoneglow: Bangar. He's served our people up as slaves to Jormag.
    Crecia Stoneglow: They're abominations. We've got to end this. Malice, what about your agents in Dominion?

    Why so readily use their own term without context? Last time they rewrote plot for the sake of fan pandering, they forgot to expose players to Mordremoth's name and then we had the sudden use of the name in S2E2 out of nowhere. This time it was done better, but it still feels forced in late.

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  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Who referred to it as Frost Legion first? If it was Ryland and Co I can understand why they would want to. It shows that they're not just generic Icebrood at the behest of Jormag but an individual "Legion" merely empowered by Jormag. It allows them to convince others and themselves that they're still in control with their own motives and free will, not just manipulated subjects of a superior officer or an elder dragon. They can keep some semblance of their identity and cultural values.

    I mean, Svanir are minions of Jormag and are referred to as Svanir, not just Icebrood Norn. Replace Norn with Charr and call it a Legion because they're following Bangar instead of generic "Svanir" for following Svanir. It really doesn't feel like "pandering" or forced to me.

    A lot of good points in this thread though. I really don't see what the issue is or why it would be a stretch.

  • rrusse.7058rrusse.7058 Member ✭✭✭

    Of all the Elder Dragons, Jormag seems to be the one that allows their minions the most autonomy. Jormag claims to grant power and protection to those who would listen. Bangar is paranoid enough to go to the dragon willingly. From Jormag's perspective Bangar and his forces are more useful with their minds intact rather than slaves like the other dragons create.

  • Perihen the Thawk.9527Perihen the Thawk.9527 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2020

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Who referred to it as Frost Legion first?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    It's pretty obvious that they took the name from that, and rewrote a bit to fit it. Otherwise, why would Crecia, the Commander, and Rytlock suddenly call it the Frost Legion too?

    Varinia calls them the Frost Legion at the bridge when they first show up. That's where the Commander, Rytlock, and Crecia hear it.

    From the wiki:

    Character name: They look like Sons of Svanir...
    Rytlock Brimstone: Ryland's gone!
    Crecia Stoneglow: We can't let them get beyond this valley!
    Varinia Stormsounder: Face the might of the Frost Legion!

    And then during the fight with Varinia:

    Varinia Stormsounder: Your minds are too weak to resist the coming storm!
    Varinia Stormsounder: Frost Legion! Cut them down!
    Varinia Stormsounder: Engineers! Obliterate them!

    So it doesn't come out of nowhere, they heard the name from Varinia twice. It probably sounds somewhat cryptic to Efram when they're explaining things later though.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @rrusse.7058 said:
    Of all the Elder Dragons, Jormag seems to be the one that allows their minions the most autonomy. Jormag claims to grant power and protection to those who would listen. Bangar is paranoid enough to go to the dragon willingly. From Jormag's perspective Bangar and his forces are more useful with their minds intact rather than slaves like the other dragons create.

    Svanir Seer: We've used all the thaw elixir. Go and gather ingredients to make more.
    Svanir Brute: (wordless grunt)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_in_Ice#Dialogue

    Charr Risen Thrall: Rise, my brothers!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Thrall#Quotes

    Risen Keeper of the Shrine: The Mists are filled with lies. Zhaitan is our only chance at immortality. Serve him!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Silence_(story)#Dialogue

    TBH, in terms of intelligence, the risen always seemed to be higher than even icebrood. The risen were even left to do their pre-death tasks while at Orr.

    But mindless foes get tiresome, so since we had such with Kralkatorrik, then like how Mordremoth got the Mordrem Guard, I guess Jormag is getting the Frost Legion.

    @Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    It's pretty obvious that they took the name from that, and rewrote a bit to fit it. Otherwise, why would Crecia, the Commander, and Rytlock suddenly call it the Frost Legion too?

    Varinia calls them the Frost Legion at the bridge when they first show up. That's where the Commander, Rytlock, and Crecia hear it.

    -snip-

    So it doesn't come out of nowhere, they heard the name from Varinia twice. It probably sounds somewhat cryptic to Efram when they're explaining things later though.

    Didn't say that it came out of nowhere. I said:

    Why so readily use their own term without context?

    The dialogue treats it as if everyone and their mother knew exactly what the Frost Legion was, despite this being their first hearing of it.

    Of course, the readily usage of brand new group names is a common issue with this episode. Dominion, United Legions - these terms came out of nowhere, and got used readily without explanation or context. Before this episode, the groups were called "Renegades" and "Allied Legions". Why the sudden name change? Nobody knows.

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  • Perihen the Thawk.9527Perihen the Thawk.9527 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Didn't say that it came out of nowhere. I said:

    Why so readily use their own term without context?

    The dialogue treats it as if everyone and their mother knew exactly what the Frost Legion was, despite this being their first hearing of it.

    Okay, I just misunderstood you.

  • Matt H.6142Matt H.6142 Member ✭✭✭

    I like to think the corruption is so slow and subtle, they don’t even notice they feel colder and have turned blue, therefore they thought nothing of calling themselves frost legion.

  • Sirius.4510Sirius.4510 Member ✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Of course, the readily usage of brand new group names is a common issue with this episode. Dominion, United Legions - these terms came out of nowhere, and got used readily without explanation or context. Before this episode, the groups were called "Renegades" and "Allied Legions". Why the sudden name change? Nobody knows.

    It gives the impression that a lot happened between last episode and this one - I assume in those few months, Bangar was deemed a traitor, formed his own organization, and started recruiting from other legions... maybe not in that order... and the other legions were forced to ally against him due to depleted numbers... but it all happens while we're not there. Kind of like why the war is over there in the first place. It's impossible that ArenaNet didn't consider that question - most likely it's because of proximity to Jormag - but it hasn't been explained so far.

    Which I'm not sure I'm a fan of either. I kind of got it with Almorra, where the twist wouldn't have worked if her death weren't off-screen, but it's difficult to imagine a similar Really Good Reason for this narrative decision. There could have been some exposition... somewhere...

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rrusse.7058 said:
    Of all the Elder Dragons, Jormag seems to be the one that allows their minions the most autonomy.

    Jormag is chill like that.

  • Perihen the Thawk.9527Perihen the Thawk.9527 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2020

    I hope they're planning to explain more about how exactly the Frost Legion became a thing.

    We just killed the source of the Whispers, and last we heard from Bangar he didn't seem very interested in working with the Sons of Svanir. How exactly is he tapping in to Jormag in order to corrupt the army? How is his army coordinating with the other Icebrood? Is Bangar figuring this out on his own or is there another source of whispers now, or is Bangar so close to Jormag's lair that they don't need a champion to whisper to him anymore?

  • Bolbo Baggins.8594Bolbo Baggins.8594 Member ✭✭
    edited June 4, 2020

    I myself started calling them Frost Legion very early. It just seemed fitting, instead of the boring generic name ice brood. It gives it more power. Don't know if they came up with the name by own inspiration or adapting to a populair name the Charr loving community gave it. Now wondering if we will get a Flame and Frost episode the next batch ;-p