Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ?

Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

Is it me or the Icebrood Saga is more about Charr then norn, most of the characters that get some screen time are charr.
So we got Bjora for the norn but there a kitten all Norn characters , we have Braham but he is always there anyway and we got Jhavi, cool is that all.The lore is nice and all but it is just world building which adds some flavor to things we already know.
So where are the rest of the Norn did they turn all in to sons of Svanir, where are the legend seekers, hunters, wolfborn, where are Knut and his sons. I feel like we got more character development on Norn with Dragon bash then from the Saga.
The whole Norn are just big human meme kinda just gets reinforced since there are no memorable and interesting Norn characters left.

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Comments

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I figure it's mostly gonna be Charr, but we'll see more Norn later on too

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  • Hoelbrak and a whole bunch of Norns make an appearance in the trailer where they took up arms against the Frost Legion. It's clear they still have a very big part to play in the future. Remember, it isn't just Bangar that's the villain, our real target is Jormag, who's very deeply tied to Norn lore. The Charr have the spotlight now for the purpose of exposition and buildup, but I have no doubt the Norn will get their turn eventually.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    So where are the rest of the Norn did they turn all in to sons of Svanir, where are the legend seekers, hunters, wolfborn, where are Knut and his sons. I feel like we got more character development on Norn with Dragon bash then from the Saga.
    The whole Norn are just big human meme kinda just gets reinforced since there are no memorable and interesting Norn characters left.

    "Norn are just big human" is because people are dumb.

    Where is Knut? Running Hoelbrek. You know, his home. Where are the wolfborn? Guarding Hoelbrek, you know, their home. Wolfborn are a guard force, not an army. Knut is not a general, just respected. Back when the Norn marched with the Pact to the silverwastes it wasn't wolfborn, but hunters and other Norn.

    So the leader of the Norn is sitting on his hands while the Charr are trying to kill the biggest nemesis of the Norn.
    Usually you set up characters at the begging of the story, that is what they did with Grothmar for the Charr. Bjora should have had more predominant Norn but all it got was 2 and i don't think they will add anymore that matter after.
    For people that search for personal Glory the Norn do kitten all in the game.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    In the second part of the episode, the story will probably take us beyond Wolf's Crossing and Norn should be able to play his part in the story.

    I just hope that Braham does not have an absolute protagonist role, but that the Norn faction is led by Jhavi, I liked the way he managed Drakkar, there is a photo that portrays Rytlock, Jhavi and Braham ready to face the opposing army.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    So where are the rest of the Norn did they turn all in to sons of Svanir, where are the legend seekers, hunters, wolfborn, where are Knut and his sons. I feel like we got more character development on Norn with Dragon bash then from the Saga.
    The whole Norn are just big human meme kinda just gets reinforced since there are no memorable and interesting Norn characters left.

    "Norn are just big human" is because people are dumb.

    Where is Knut? Running Hoelbrek. You know, his home. Where are the wolfborn? Guarding Hoelbrek, you know, their home. Wolfborn are a guard force, not an army. Knut is not a general, just respected. Back when the Norn marched with the Pact to the silverwastes it wasn't wolfborn, but hunters and other Norn.

    So the leader of the Norn is sitting on his hands while the Charr are trying to kill the biggest nemesis of the Norn.
    Usually you set up characters at the begging of the story, that is what they did with Grothmar for the Charr. Bjora should have had more predominant Norn but all it got was 2 and i don't think they will add anymore that matter after.
    For people that search for personal Glory the Norn do kitten all in the game.

    I'm guessing you don't know much of anything about the Norn based on this post.

  • vier.1327vier.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    I want more sylvari Lore, we do not even have an expansion or a whole LS season yet...

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    I can not think about the Norn without Jormag, i guess they will be the chavaliery when things go downhill.

  • vier.1327vier.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @vier.1327 said:
    I want more sylvari Lore, we do not even have an expansion or a whole LS season yet...

    Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @Genesis.8572 said:
    Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."

    Pretty much.
    -LWS2 and HoT were the Sylvari story focus.
    -Icebrood Saga is the Norn/Charr story focus.
    -The Primordus LW/Saga/expansion/whatever they do for it will be the Asura story focus.
    -Elona and Cantha are, OFC, Human story focus.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Genesis.8572 said:
    Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."

    Pretty much.
    -LWS2 and HoT were the Sylvari story focus.
    -Icebrood Saga is the Norn/Charr story focus.
    -The Primordus LW/Saga/expansion/whatever they do for it will be the Asura story focus.
    -Elona and Cantha are, OFC, Human story focus.

    LW2 was Human/Sylvari with a hint of Charr (Humans had their time to shine with a lot of lore into the inner workings of the Ministry as well as the stuff with Belinda and the Zephyrites, Sylvari because Aerin and Scarlet and Charr because of the whole Uncle Trombone jumps into the Mists thing as well as the early running around Iron Marches killing plants...)

    HoT was pretty much entirely Sylvari focus.

    LW3 was Human/Asura focus. Asura because of a lot to do with Taimi and Rata Novus. Human because the entire arc of Caudecus/Lazarus (Shining Blade) and of course the introduction of Balthazar, not to mention things like Siren's Landing having all the old Orr rulers on it as Hearts with shrines to Human gods as objectives.

    PoF was entirely Human focused.

    LW4 is Human/Charr focused with a hint of Asura (Human because its more Humans being attacked by a Plague that only kills Humans, Charr because of the Sandswept Isles and the Olmakhan and the dash of Asura is due to the Inquest/Rata Primus and Awakened Inquest stuff)

    IBS is Norn/Charr focused, though without that much to do with Norn if you consider how they've been ignored in literally all content in the game until now with slight exception of Eir's memorial at the start of LW3... (Even the "Norn" zone in LW3 ended up being more about Kodan/Quaggan and a bit of Grawl than Norn with the only Norn stuff being getting the Thaw Elixir Recipe from the Sons of Svanir and Braham's mission to crack Jormag's Tooth)

    Even LW1 was Sylvari/Asura themed due to Scarlet and Primordus being the prominent threats. While the Orr arc felt a lot like Sylvari/Charr focus due to being centred around Trahearne and then Charr military forces (Copters, Cannons, Tanks...) with Humans jumping in right at the end with the Glory of Tyria airship helmed by Logan...

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  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Episodes 1 and 2 were purely norn focused...
    Episodes 0 and 3 were primarily charr focused...

    I'd say it was fairly even so far.

    Bjora was world building focused about Norn lore and history, but most of the characters on the map are not Norn, the story about the Norn somehow ends up about the Pact and about the Kodan(again), even the essence system that gains its power from the dead spirits of the wild is explained by asura instead of Norn shaman.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    but most of the characters on the map are not Norn,

    Outside of the kodan, most characters are definitely norn. Both those involved in quests (Jhavi and Weibe being the only allied NPCs involved in the metas, both are norn) or just nameless NPCs. Yes, there are asura, charr, human, and sylvari among the Vigil. But not many, not as many as norn.

    If you add in enemy NPCs, then they're almost all exclusively norn with a handful of kodan and animals.

    the story about the Norn somehow ends up about the Pact and about the Kodan(again)

    The Pact aren't involved, only the Vigil and the "Pact story" that's about the Vigil is about the norn of the Vigil, and the "kodan story" is also norn story (Lost Spirits, Jhavi, Braham). However, most of the story was revolving around Braham (Destiny's Edge 2.0 and the "prophecy" and burden of cracking the tooth) and the Spirits of the Wild (Raven, Wolf, and the Lost Spirits) for Episodes 1 and 2.

    even the essence system that gains its power from the dead spirits of the wild is explained by asura instead of Norn shaman.

    I'll grant this to you, but that's because the lore is using methods that norn would disagree with.

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  • Only problem I have with the Drakkar storyline is that they let Braham kill it instead of Jhavi.

    Her open world part is pretty kitten, but Braham getting to kill Drakkar instead of her felt pretty unearned.

    I think they have plenty of time to pull focus back to the Norn for awhile, and I hope they do so. It's always kind of felt like maybe there aren't any devs at Anet who really enjoy writing stuff for the Norn and get excited about it. They seem to be really enjoying writing the Charr and bring it up often in chats buts they don't really get excited about Norn characterization and lore in the same way.

    I really hope they come back to the Raven lens and actually use it more. The bit with Asgeir was great, and it made me think they were going to continue to add those visions elsewhere. I thought for sure you'd be able to find flashbacks of Svanir and Jora around the lake with the lens, but we didn't get anything like that.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    but most of the characters on the map are not Norn,

    Outside of the kodan, most characters are definitely norn. Both those involved in quests (Jhavi and Weibe being the only allied NPCs involved in the metas, both are norn) or just nameless NPCs. Yes, there are asura, charr, human, and sylvari among the Vigil. But not many, not as many as norn.

    If you add in enemy NPCs, then they're almost all exclusively norn with a handful of kodan and animals.

    the story about the Norn somehow ends up about the Pact and about the Kodan(again)

    The Pact aren't involved, only the Vigil and the "Pact story" that's about the Vigil is about the norn of the Vigil, and the "kodan story" is also norn story (Lost Spirits, Jhavi, Braham). However, most of the story was revolving around Braham (Destiny's Edge 2.0 and the "prophecy" and burden of cracking the tooth) and the Spirits of the Wild (Raven, Wolf, and the Lost Spirits) for Episodes 1 and 2.

    even the essence system that gains its power from the dead spirits of the wild is explained by asura instead of Norn shaman.

    I'll grant this to you, but that's because the lore is using methods that norn would disagree with.

    That is the issue nameless, unmemorable ,soldier number 323123. Even Waibe being a raven shaman has no character he is just plot device. Most of the story in bjora feels like exposition, when you compare with Grothmar where even the event NPCs have personality Bjora kinda falls off. You have Braham and Jhavi but there aren't other characters that they can bounce off. The Charr story line feels way more fleshed out(even though it is somewhat soupy), they even added characters from the personal story to go the extra mile, while Bjora feels like the rushed part of the personal story where most of the characters didn't matter much.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    That is the issue nameless, unmemorable ,soldier number 323123. Even Waibe being a raven shaman has no character he is just plot device.

    Same can be said about npcs like the Minister of Morale, Metal Legion, and announcer for Ooze Pit or the allied Keep Lords in Drizzlewood. Though given the fact that Weibe comes from the personal story, I'd disagree that he has no character.

    Most of the story in bjora feels like exposition, when you compare with Grothmar where even the event NPCs have personality Bjora kinda falls off.

    I definitely disagree. Fireside stories of Svanir and boneskinners, patrols talking about the norn's history with icebrood, visions of Aesgir pulling the Fang of the Serpent from where he fought Jormag. This is heavy personality.

    They even used the norn to foreshadow the plot with Dragon Bash and the Suspicious Travelers where you could hear Jormag's whispers.

    You have Braham and Jhavi but there aren't other characters that they can bounce off.

    You say that like Crecia and Rytlock has such.

    The Charr story line feels way more fleshed out(even though it is somewhat soupy), they even added characters from the personal story to go the extra mile, while Bjora feels like the rushed part of the personal story where most of the characters didn't matter much.

    They added personal story NPCs to Bjora too (Jhavi, Weibe) and they delve into and connect several aspects of pre-existing norn lore, just as the charr story does.

    Sounds more like your issue is that you don't delve into the norn story, but do delve a bit into the charr story, so you feel the story you've delved into more has more to delve into when that's not really so.

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  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    That is the issue nameless, unmemorable ,soldier number 323123. Even Waibe being a raven shaman has no character he is just plot device.

    Same can be said about npcs like the Minister of Morale, Metal Legion, and announcer for Ooze Pit or the allied Keep Lords in Drizzlewood. Though given the fact that Weibe comes from the personal story, I'd disagree that he has no character.

    Most of the story in bjora feels like exposition, when you compare with Grothmar where even the event NPCs have personality Bjora kinda falls off.

    I definitely disagree. Fireside stories of Svanir and boneskinners, patrols talking about the norn's history with icebrood, visions of Aesgir pulling the Fang of the Serpent from where he fought Jormag. This is heavy personality.

    They even used the norn to foreshadow the plot with Dragon Bash and the Suspicious Travelers where you could hear Jormag's whispers.

    You have Braham and Jhavi but there aren't other characters that they can bounce off.

    You say that like Crecia and Rytlock has such.

    The Charr story line feels way more fleshed out(even though it is somewhat soupy), they even added characters from the personal story to go the extra mile, while Bjora feels like the rushed part of the personal story where most of the characters didn't matter much.

    They added personal story NPCs to Bjora too (Jhavi, Weibe) and they delve into and connect several aspects of pre-existing norn lore, just as the charr story does.

    Sounds more like your issue is that you don't delve into the norn story, but do delve a bit into the charr story, so you feel the story you've delved into more has more to delve into when that's not really so.

    Waibe is plot device even in the personal story, he is quest giver that is about it. The fireside stories, which are almost hidden and most probably would be seen after covering most of the map, and the patrols talking is the definition of exposition. Crecia and Rytlock have the whole dynamic with Bangar , Ryland and the Charr Imperators.
    As i said Bjora is lore heavy, but there is lack characters and character development.The whole story is really hard focused on Braham, i know he is supposed to be the main protagonist and is his legend, but most of it is just about him and Jhavi is there to give exposition.
    Now that you made me look deeper into it feels even worse, cause most of it is just exposition.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Even LW1 was Sylvari/Asura themed due to Scarlet and Primordus being the prominent threats. While the Orr arc felt a lot like Sylvari/Charr focus due to being centred around Trahearne and then Charr military forces (Copters, Cannons, Tanks...) with Humans jumping in right at the end with the Glory of Tyria airship helmed by Logan...

    There was a lot of "use asura magitech to solve the problem" in the original release and in season 1 as well, including in things where the solution really should have come from another race (example: the temples being 'cleansed' by using an asura device to cut them off, when it could have been an opportunity for human priests to perform rituals to cleanse them, even if only temporarily).

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    As i said Bjora is lore heavy, but there is lack characters and character development.The whole story is really hard focused on Braham, i know he is supposed to be the main protagonist and is his legend, but most of it is just about him and Jhavi is there to give exposition.
    Now that you made me look deeper into it feels even worse, cause most of it is just exposition.

    "Grothmar and Drizzle Wood is lore heavy, but there is a lack characters and character development. The whole story is really hard focused on Crecia and Rytlock, I know they're supposed to be main protagonists and their family, but most of it is just about them and the imperators are there to give exposition."

    Same level of accuracy in both viewpoints. If Weibe. Cloudseeker, and Jhavi are just there to give exposition, so is Efram, Malice, and Smodur.

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  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    As i said Bjora is lore heavy, but there is lack characters and character development.The whole story is really hard focused on Braham, i know he is supposed to be the main protagonist and is his legend, but most of it is just about him and Jhavi is there to give exposition.
    Now that you made me look deeper into it feels even worse, cause most of it is just exposition.

    "Grothmar and Drizzle Wood is lore heavy, but there is a lack characters and character development. The whole story is really hard focused on Crecia and Rytlock, I know they're supposed to be main protagonists and their family, but most of it is just about them and the imperators are there to give exposition."

    Same level of accuracy in both viewpoints. If Weibe. Cloudseeker, and Jhavi are just there to give exposition, so is Efram, Malice, and Smodur.

    Even the exposition characters have more dynamics between each other in Drizzlewood, even though Smodur is used somewhat as a plot moving device with the family melodrama, he still got some character development for good or bad and there is also the B plot with Ryland and the Steel Warband.
    The characters in Bjora are on the same level of development that they started in the beginning of the episode, except Braham who got spirit magic and can become the Wolf now (the big reveal).

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wasn't episode 1&2 on the Norn side?

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    I think the saga is more charr focused. The logo, red and blue, means to me the transformation of blood legion (red) into frost legion (blue). There are norns, but because it's shiverpeaks. Even when we were in bjora we kept saying "have to find almorra, we have to stop bangar...." and ton of jormag speech, but since it's linked to bangar now.. If we speak of maps, 0 and 3 are charr, 1 and 2 norn.

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  • AgentMoore.9453AgentMoore.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    I think they've been trying to give both cultures attention, they're just real bad at it.

    For example, people like to say HoT was the "Sylvari" expansion, but ask the cabbage community about it and they'll roll out the long list of plotholes, unanswered questions, and cut content that left gaps in the storytelling because deadlines had to be met. In truth, most of the game's story is about Humans running around ruining things and occasionally a dragon flies overhead and everyone points at it.

    Asura are used as plot devices, Norn are said to be deeply spiritual but come off as drunken stereotypes and caricatures, Charr get lots of nuance and attention (which I guess we should grant them since they were so prevalent in the first game), and Sylvari are comic relief. Occasionally, the writing team manages a story that kicks your teeth in and knocks the wind out of you, but that's the exception and not the rule.

    The way they handle the various cultures during this season is shaping up to be no different than how they've done it in the past: Hand-waved, and kinda lackluster compared to whatever you were hoping for.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    For example, people like to say HoT was the "Sylvari" expansion, but ask the cabbage community about it and they'll roll out the long list of plotholes, unanswered questions, and cut content that left gaps in the storytelling because deadlines had to be met. In truth, most of the game's story is about Humans running around ruining things and occasionally a dragon flies overhead and everyone points at it.

    What plotholes or unanswered questions from HoT? As for cut content there is Mylack, which has no affect on HoT's story, and the 4th route on Dragon Stand.... which also has no affect on the story.

    Humans running around ruining things

    Except humans are behind very little in the game.Its mostly dragon minions, or Scarlet.

    Asura are used as plot devices,

    All the races have been plot devices throughout the story at one point or another.

    and Sylvari are comic relief.

    Since when was/has Trahearne, Caithe, or the Pale Tree, been comic relief? The most funny Sylvari is Canach, and hes just good at being sarcastic, and isn't a comic relief either.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    What plotholes or unanswered questions from HoT? As for cut content there is Mylack, which has no affect on HoT's story, and the 4th route on Dragon Stand.... which also has no affect on the story.

    Off the top of my head, there was also supposed to be something going into more detail regarding the Nightmare Court and how they interacted with Mordremoth, which also got cut pretty much entirely apart from Faolain's appearance and Chrysanthea showing up in Dragon's Stand.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Episodes 1 and 2 were purely norn focused...
    Episodes 0 and 3 were primarily charr focused...

    I'd say it was fairly even so far.

    Release-wise that's correct but when it comes to people/armies involved its very heavily Char Focused at this moment. It will probably change and I hope it does because to not have a norn army face the #1 norn enemy is a little silly to me. The Norn I know lorewise wouldn't not be sitting by watching what was happened in these episodes and not done SOMETHING by now.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Wasn't episode 1&2 on the Norn side?

    I think the discrepancy is not so much in it being Norn focused but having very little Norn involved. There are some Vigil soldiers and a sprinkle of Norn fighters but that's it. The Charr legions are very involved with the releases so far while the Norn lodges aren't at all (besides the appearences of the Spirits). I do hope they get more involved since Jormag was their number one enemy for so long.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Off the top of my head, there was also supposed to be something going into more detail regarding the Nightmare Court and how they interacted with Mordremoth, which also got cut pretty much entirely apart from Faolain's appearance and Chrysanthea showing up in Dragon's Stand.

    Yeah, the cut 4th lane i mentioned earlier.

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    Release-wise that's correct but when it comes to people/armies involved its very heavily Char Focused at this moment. It will probably change and I hope it does because to not have a norn army face the #1 norn enemy is a little silly to me. The Norn I know lorewise wouldn't not be sitting by watching what was happened in these episodes and not done SOMETHING by now.

    The events of episode 1 and 2 were rather quick, and didn't leave much time for word to get out, or for people from all the way down in Hoelbrak to get involved. And the Norn have no reason to get involved in a Charr civil war either.

    Also, the Norn don't have an army, they have hunting parties. The Norn lack any sort of organized civilization, and are basically a species of loners. This is part of the reason why the Spirits of the Wild led them south in the first place, because they were trying to take on Jormag like 5 at a time, and it wasn't working out, and they were getting themselves killed off as a species. Even with the founding of Hoelbrak as an unusually concentrated center for the Norn, they still largely remain a species of loners who pride themselves on focusing on the individual, rather then any sort of community effort.

    After Barham cracked Jormag's tooth we didn't see the Norn, as a species, organize some giant fighting force to to confront Jormag, they were perfectly fine with letting Braham and his small group do it themselves, because that is how the Norn have always operated. If anything they WOULDN'T get involved because its up to Braham to forge his own legend, and its up to him to slay Jormag because hes the one who cracked the tooth. Having some large Norn army show up would be completely counter to everything established previously about Norn culture. Leaving most of it up to Braham and his hunting party(Dragon's Watch) is the most Norn thing they could do.

    Assuming Anet keeps the "three lane" Elder Dragon fight they used for both Mord and Kralk I can see it as lane 1 being Norn/Kodan, lane 2 being Charr Legions, and lane 3 being the Crystal Bloom. Assuming episodes 5 and 6 don't do something like take us further into the Woodland Cascades, and we befriend the Centaurs or something.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    Norn are said to be deeply spiritual but come off as drunken stereotypes and caricatures,

    People love to act as if the Norn were changed from GW1. The truth is, it's just we finally see what their normal, non-fighting life is like.

    Yes they party, yes they typically love having a good keg to drink from. But people turn around and assume that is all there is to Norn. They love to talk about how GW2 doesn't treat Norn right yet don't even understand the Norn. "Eir isn't a Norn because they are individualistic!/Any norn who joins a guild or faction isn't really Norn!" yet... Norn embrace choosing your own path. Some Norn work with others to achieve a goal (See, WOLF.) Others choose to do things alone. Others rally others under their leadership and even lead armies. (Eir with her guild, PC Norn). They complain about Braham rebelling yet don't understand that He's a young Norn with very little adventuring experience under his belt, who found a scroll that can empower Eir's bow to crack Jormag's tooth, and make his (and her) legend immortal for all time. And then we told him to stop and wait, to let the chance go. OF COURSE he turned against us.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    The events of episode 1 and 2 were rather quick, and didn't leave much time for word to get out, or for people from all the way down in Hoelbrak to get involved. And the Norn have no reason to get involved in a Charr civil war either.

    Also, the Norn don't have an army, they have hunting parties. The Norn lack any sort of organized civilization, and are basically a species of loners. This is part of the reason why the Spirits of the Wild led them south in the first place, because they were trying to take on Jormag like 5 at a time, and it wasn't working out, and they were getting themselves killed off as a species. Even with the founding of Hoelbrak as an unusually concentrated center for the Norn, they still largely remain a species of loners who pride themselves on focusing on the individual, rather then any sort of community effort.

    After Barham cracked Jormag's tooth we didn't see the Norn, as a species, organize some giant fighting force to to confront Jormag, they were perfectly fine with letting Braham and his small group do it themselves, because that is how the Norn have always operated. If anything they WOULDN'T get involved because its up to Braham to forge his own legend, and its up to him to slay Jormag because hes the one who cracked the tooth. Having some large Norn army show up would be completely counter to everything established previously about Norn culture. Leaving most of it up to Braham and his hunting party(Dragon's Watch) is the most Norn thing they could do.

    Norn hear that every male who went up to Jora's Keep turned to Svanir and the rest were slaughtered, including the Raven Shamans maintaining the vault there. Most would probably hold off charging North since it's clearly a deathtrap. Norn are brave and bold, but the majority of them are smart. Hell, most have things going on down south. Heck, the fact Braham lead a force up there, then disappeared after Jormag went dormant may have caused most people to just go "eh, why go up north. He failed."

    Second part is huge and people don't understand this. Knut even outright states all he can do at the World Summit is recommend Norn hunters/warriors go join the Pact effort as it'll probably be glorious. His authority doesn't go an inch past the borders of Hoelbrek, besides what his reputation may hold for various groups. Hell, Hoelbrek is explicitly not considered a City by the norn, merely the biggest, most complex homestead. Hoelbrek is the homestead of Knut, not the capital city of a Norn nation.

    As for Braham, he did rally a group and marched north. Guess what? Every single one of them are dead now, turned to Svanir (then killed), or slaughtered at Jora's Keep. The ones who probably bought into the legend the most are all likely dead or MIA now. And as Jhavi told us (at least of the Norn in the farther north regions) they turned to hating Braham because he simply left after Jormag went to sleep again.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    What plotholes or unanswered questions from HoT? As for cut content there is Mylack, which has no affect on HoT's story, and the 4th route on Dragon Stand.... which also has no affect on the story.

    • Malyck (cut)
    • Nightmare Court's view on Mordremoth (mostly cut and bugged out of the Prisoners of the Dragon - notice the empty cells? They're meant to have Nightmare Courtiers according to Matthew Medina)
    • How the Pale Tree was purified (briefly mentioned in the Complete Art of Guild Wars)
    • The seed cave Ronan found, and the "plant monsters" within
    • The origin of Dream and Nightmare and why they both fight the Elder Dragons and even Mordremoth (the latter, at least, for the Dream)
    • Canach and sylvari being assaulted in concrete cities (per the S2 teaser)
    • How sylvari beyond the Heart of Maguuma dealt with Mordremoth's call and the revelation as dragon minions (never even hinted at beyond minor dialogue during the Mordremoth's Minions Invade weekend event)
      Off the top of my head, these are all the missing plots that by all rights should have been covered in HoT.

    All the races have been plot devices throughout the story at one point or another.

    TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2. Or norn (unless you count the Lost Spirits in Episode 2).

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    Release-wise that's correct but when it comes to people/armies involved its very heavily Char Focused at this moment. It will probably change and I hope it does because to not have a norn army face the #1 norn enemy is a little silly to me. The Norn I know lorewise wouldn't not be sitting by watching what was happened in these episodes and not done SOMETHING by now.

    Well, norn don't have armies. That's kind of the thing about norn. "Norn have no need of armies." - repeatedly stated in GW1 by norn whenever questioned why they bring so few to a large fight

    So I don't expect a norn army in any way. They have always been about hunting parties - and we already got one, in a way: Braham's Destiny's Edge. We saw that hunting party in its crumbled state due to Braham leaving.

    I do expect we'll be seeing more prominent norn return, as the trailer does hint that Hoelbrak gets involved, and that would suggest the Wolfborn and as such, Knut and his Knutssons get involved (which would tie back into older lore, where it's hinted that Knut has been getting the Wolfborn ready for a fight against Jormag).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2.

    Uhh... Did you miss like the entirety of LW3, PoF and LW4?

    Where there was White Mantle (Humans) shenanigans, Shining Blade (Human Secret Society) stuff involving Lazarus (Who was notable due to what he did to Humans), Human Ministers and their treachery (Caudecus), a Human God going to destroy dragons to get more power to destroy more Human Gods and then an ancient pestilence that wiped out an old Human civilization being used again to try and eradicate more Humans.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Was supposed to be about Jormag and it's agenda.

    We just assumed it would be heavily about the Norn because of the Dragons history with them.
    There's still time for more Norn based content though so we'll have to see where this goes.

  • @Genesis.8572 said:

    @vier.1327 said:
    I want more sylvari Lore, we do not even have an expansion or a whole LS season yet...

    Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."

    so where were so sylvari exclusive skins?

  • Orack.9756Orack.9756 Member ✭✭

    @Dan.9304 said:
    when are we getting the patch that has asura as the main characters? asura master race.

    As an Asura fan, I would love a lore about them we give you more information about their past and all the curious structur underground.
    More than just "they lived here, get rekt, go up".
    Even in the actual Asura lore, most of them don't know/remember all the knowledge they add in the past.
    I'm very curious about this race ^^

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2.

    Uhh... Did you miss like the entirety of LW3, PoF and LW4?

    Where there was White Mantle (Humans) shenanigans, Shining Blade (Human Secret Society) stuff involving Lazarus (Who was notable due to what he did to Humans), Human Ministers and their treachery (Caudecus), a Human God going to destroy dragons to get more power to destroy more Human Gods and then an ancient pestilence that wiped out an old Human civilization being used again to try and eradicate more Humans.

    Shenanigans and antagonists != plot devices though. I'm not talking about the enemies of the plot or who gets involved in the plot, but the mcguffin or the dues ex machina or otherwise "the device that solves or progresses the plot".

    In Season 3, the plot device of the story was Taimi's Machine. Asura. And there was the Eye that directed us to the Crystal Desert - mursaat.

    In PoF, the plot device was Vlast/Aurene. Dragon. Arguably Sohothin too, but that was provided by a charr, and is technically god-originated and not human.

    In Season 4's first half, the plot device of the story was... Inquest-recreated scarab plague. Asura. In the second half, it was Aurene and her ability to steal magic she eats, or it was asura who created tracking devices and brandstorm disruptors that furthered the plot.

    Sure, you had humans and undead humans and magic-junkie humans coming out of the woodworks in those three plots, but they weren't providing the tools to progress the plot. They were just the aesthetic of the plot, and there wouldn't be much of a change in narration if you replaced the humans with any other race - but what would change in the story direction and order of events would be if you removed asura entirely. How then would Balthazar manage to put both Jormag and Primordus to sleep? How then would we be reintroduced to the Scarab Plague, or the Rollerbeetle; how then would the Dragonfall meta progress if not for asura magitech, or the tracking of Kralkatorrik's movements be solved?

    Heart of Thorns' primary plot device was, ultimately, Rata Novus - the asura came out of literal kitten nowhere to get used as the plot device to progress and solve the plot.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2.

    Uhh... Did you miss like the entirety of LW3, PoF and LW4?

    Where there was White Mantle (Humans) shenanigans, Shining Blade (Human Secret Society) stuff involving Lazarus (Who was notable due to what he did to Humans), Human Ministers and their treachery (Caudecus), a Human God going to destroy dragons to get more power to destroy more Human Gods and then an ancient pestilence that wiped out an old Human civilization being used again to try and eradicate more Humans.

    That's not plot devices.

  • While It does appear that the IceBrood Saga focuses heavily on the world of the Charr, There are indeed Major Norn influences.
    I shall explain.
    The very idea that Jormag has either chosen to build an army consisting of both the Sons of Svanir, Icebrood minions, and Charr, OR that Bangar succeeded in doing the unthinkable and "claiming" an Elder Dragon for "the legions" is something that, since Living World Season 3, the Norn have had on the front burner. While at the present, the story has us fighting side by side with the charr in an all out civil war, the over-arc here is still primarily focused on Jormag vs the world with the Norn having the most to gain from Their defeat (using that pronoun as to not assume).
    In the Lore of the Norn, the Chipping of the Tooth signaled the moment when the Norn could once again return to the northern Shiverpeaks. Braham became the focal point of the fight against Jormag due to it was his using of Eir's bow to perform such an action. Jhavi's arrival and subsequent taking over of the Vigil after Almorra's death Not only solidifies the Norn's presence in the story, but it also serves as a potential Vehicle for what is to come. While I agree that we started with a unification of the legions in the prologue, and now seeing them devolve into a civil conflict gives the current state of the Saga a Charr-based feel... Understand that 3 stories are happening here, all at the same time, and it can be quite difficult to pay attention to all 3.

    First... we Have Jormag and the Conflict with the Norn that has raged on for centuries. yes centuries. remember, the first encounter with the norn that we had was well over 250 years ago, and the conflict began with Jora and Svanir at Drakkar Lake. Since that moment, it has always been(while not obvious) a conflict of interests progressing into all out war between the norn and the Elder Dragon. The conflict still exists today. As long as Jormag exists... as long as the Sons of Svanir and the Icebrood still walk the planet, the Norn will continue to fight. The Norn wish for their Homeland. they Long for it. and Jormag will not give in that easily, hence obtaining the Charr as allies the same way Svanir was corrupted.

    Second, we have the Jealousy-driven Bangar Ruinbringer, his followers(including Rytlock's son) one one side, and Rytlock, Crecia, and the united legions on the other. Bangar refuses to accept anything short of victory. he truly believes that with Jormag under his belt, the ultimate takeover of Tyria is possible, and the Charr can reclaim the lands they once called home. Bangar has honey-soaked words, being able to convince those loyal to him that with the right amount of force, Jormag will be under their control, and there is a very real chance that force could be used to break the Treaty with the Humans(hence why logan and Kasmeer was present in the recent episode). Of course we are going to see a very strong Influence of the Charr. in the Icebrood saga. the location of the saga is smack dab in the middle of Charr-held lands. For the Norn to walk right through those homelands to confront Jormag without any charr influence is difficult at best. so here we are. a conflict with an Elder Dragon, and a Civil War that could escalate into a Global Conflict.

    and finally... The commander. In the recent Years, the Commander has seen things and has begun to slightly, increasingly, unravel. Cursing, shouting at Dragon's Watch members, and making decisions that have ultimately led to the death of several prominent members of Tyria. Let's Not forget this for a moment... and consider the fact that Palawa Joko's claims were entirely 100% true about the commander. Everyone shrugged this off EXCEPT the commander. "whispers in the dark" revealed that to us. The commander has faced obstacle after obstacle without break, without letup... and the time it has taken for them to absorb everything that has happened since zhaitan has has not completely sunk in. and that will happen soon.
    so No, i don't agree that the Icebrood Saga is charr-centric. I also do not believe the Icebrood Saga is norn-centric or lacking norn-stories. I think it's a 3-way dance and we shall see as it progresses how the dance ends.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2.

    Uhh... Did you miss like the entirety of LW3, PoF and LW4?

    Where there was White Mantle (Humans) shenanigans, Shining Blade (Human Secret Society) stuff involving Lazarus (Who was notable due to what he did to Humans), Human Ministers and their treachery (Caudecus), a Human God going to destroy dragons to get more power to destroy more Human Gods and then an ancient pestilence that wiped out an old Human civilization being used again to try and eradicate more Humans.

    Shenanigans and antagonists != plot devices though. I'm not talking about the enemies of the plot or who gets involved in the plot, but the mcguffin or the dues ex machina or otherwise "the device that solves or progresses the plot".

    In Season 3, the plot device of the story was Taimi's Machine. Asura. And there was the Eye that directed us to the Crystal Desert - mursaat.

    In PoF, the plot device was Vlast/Aurene. Dragon. Arguably Sohothin too, but that was provided by a charr, and is technically god-originated and not human.

    In Season 4's first half, the plot device of the story was... Inquest-recreated scarab plague. Asura. In the second half, it was Aurene and her ability to steal magic she eats, or it was asura who created tracking devices and brandstorm disruptors that furthered the plot.

    Sure, you had humans and undead humans and magic-junkie humans coming out of the woodworks in those three plots, but they weren't providing the tools to progress the plot. They were just the aesthetic of the plot, and there wouldn't be much of a change in narration if you replaced the humans with any other race - but what would change in the story direction and order of events would be if you removed asura entirely. How then would Balthazar manage to put both Jormag and Primordus to sleep? How then would we be reintroduced to the Scarab Plague, or the Rollerbeetle; how then would the Dragonfall meta progress if not for asura magitech, or the tracking of Kralkatorrik's movements be solved?

    Heart of Thorns' primary plot device was, ultimately, Rata Novus - the asura came out of literal kitten nowhere to get used as the plot device to progress and solve the plot.

    So...

    White Mantle being a flimsy excuse to introduce "Lazarus" is not a plot device?

    Having to join the Shining Blade just to find the Eye was not a plot device (Especially when Livia goes off to Ember Isles, a place we've already explored, looking for the Eye)?

    The whole killing of Lazarus just to meet the Eye was not a plot device?

    Balthazar was not a plot device?

    Visiting the Human Gods to ask them for help was not a plot device?

    All of the above mentioned stuff was humans being used as a plot device. "Lazarus" didn't need to exist, it could have simply been Balthazar from the get go (The fact he ditched the White Mantle and hired Mercenaries right away proves this).

    Joining the Shining Blade was unecessary, literally anyone could have provided us transport to Siren's Call (Such as the Sylvari, whom are already there trying to recover the land).

    The killing of Lazarus arc was entirely redundant and could have been replaced by any suitable draw of the "Eye".

    Balthazar could have been replaced by literally any threat from the mists to be released by Rytlock by accident. Heck it needn't even be something Rytlock released from the mists and could have been literally anything that wanted to hunt down Dragons to gain their power, even another Dragon (If Aurene is a random egg that is conveniently found and hatched... What about any other dragon eggs?)

    The entire trip to the Human Gods was pointless even as it stands with them basically telling us to go do one.

    The scarab plague was not "Inquest-recreated" it was the actual plague. They merely took a specimen from Faranhur to experiment with. The actual asura were inconsequential to the entire thing (Especially when Awakened were all throughout Faranhur anyway, they could have stumbled upon the plague), with their only relevance being the gates used to distribute the plague.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    What plotholes or unanswered questions from HoT? As for cut content there is Mylack, which has no affect on HoT's story, and the 4th route on Dragon Stand.... which also has no affect on the story.

    • Malyck (cut)
    • Nightmare Court's view on Mordremoth (mostly cut and bugged out of the Prisoners of the Dragon - notice the empty cells? They're meant to have Nightmare Courtiers according to Matthew Medina)
    • How the Pale Tree was purified (briefly mentioned in the Complete Art of Guild Wars)
    • The seed cave Ronan found, and the "plant monsters" within
    • The origin of Dream and Nightmare and why they both fight the Elder Dragons and even Mordremoth (the latter, at least, for the Dream)
    • Canach and sylvari being assaulted in concrete cities (per the S2 teaser)
    • How sylvari beyond the Heart of Maguuma dealt with Mordremoth's call and the revelation as dragon minions (never even hinted at beyond minor dialogue during the Mordremoth's Minions Invade weekend event)
      Off the top of my head, these are all the missing plots that by all rights should have been covered in HoT.

    Almost nothing you listed has anything to do with HoT, or is classified as missing or cut, beyond the Malyck, and, Nightmare court thing already mentioned. Several of them aren't even questions/plotholes in the first place.

    • Like Canach and the Sylvari being attacked in cities. As per the HoT story we were stuck in the jungle the whole time, why would what is happening in the cities be brought up? No one has contact with them. That bit in the cutscene was just Anet covering the very obvious fact that, yeah, if a large number of Sylvari went evil, and everyone found out they were dragon minions, people would attack them out of fear. Bringing up that "basic commonsense thing happens" doesn't mean it needs to be a big plot device, it just means they are recognizing that yeah, that thing would happen.
    • Same thing with the cave Ronan found the seed in, and the plant monsters within. It was just a cave, that happened to have some old Mordrem in it, guarding an old blighting tree seed from the last cycle. If it had appeared in HoT it would have been a Poi because... why would it be anything else at this point?
    • Its already been mentioned that Mordremoth's call was very faint outside of the Heart of the Maguuma. Sylvari all the way in the cities, Shiverpeaks, Ascalon, and elsewhere never even heard it, or it was so weak to not affect them.
    • As for the revelation they were dragon minions, to most Sylvari why would it matter? At this point in their civilization's life the knowledge that they were originally meant to be something else doesn't change that they aren't, and never have been. Its not like Glint where she started off a dragon minion, got freed, and then had to make the decision on what to do with her life from that point on. Nothing changes about how 99% of the Sylvari have lived, or will continue to live, their lives. At most, its just a factoid to fill in a history book.
    • As to how the Pale Tree was purified I don't see that as much of a question either. The seed was planted and hatched in a time when Mordremoth was asleep, and like asleep asleep, not the "asleep but still talking to its minions" kind of sleep Jormag is in right now. It never had the mental/magical connection to Mordremoth dragon minions typically have. Its like asking why Aurene was "purified" and didn't need some sort of magical purification ritual to separate her from Kralk despite being Kralk's own blood. It was never connected to Mordremoth in the first place, and Ronan and Ventari's teachings let it grow into something nice. Just like Aurene is nice due to her commendation to mortals, whereas Vlast mentions being kind of a depressed kitten who kind of didn't like his job, because his champion never came, and thus, he couldn't get attached to the mortals he was supposed to protect.

    This is the problem with fandoms in general, they became so wrapped up in something that they lose track of common sense, and basic rational thinking, and assume everything has to be part of some giant meta-conspiracy like story, when it never would be because that doesn't make sense.

    Its the same problem with the Lazarus and Joko speculations, that grew so far out of control even back in the original Guild wars that it was bizarre that anyone thought even half the speculation would come true, and, lo and behold, it didn't, because it never made sense it would be that big in the first place.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @Taril.8619 said:
    (If Aurene is a random egg that is conveniently found and hatched... What about any other dragon eggs?)

    Aurene isn't a random egg, she is Glint's last egg. And Glint is the literal child of Kralk, unlike the other dragon shaped minions like Teq and Shatterer, which are just magical constructs. And none of the other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them, so there no other place to get a real dragon egg. Also, she wasn't "conveniently" found. she was given to the Zephyrites by... someone working for/with Glint to keep it safe.

    @Taril.8619 said:
    The scarab plague was not "Inquest-recreated" it was the actual plague. They merely took a specimen from Faranhur to experiment with. The actual asura were inconsequential to the entire thing (Especially when Awakened were all throughout Faranhur anyway, they could have stumbled upon the plague), with their only relevance being the gates used to distribute the plague.

    Actually it was Inquest recreated. The inquest found ancient specimens, and spent long amounts of time recreating it through successive generational breeding of the scarabs. Even if Joko's Awakened found the old scarabs, they wouldn't have had the know how to recreate the plague. The Inquest was entirely the source behind its existence in the modern day.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    (If Aurene is a random egg that is conveniently found and hatched... What about any other dragon eggs?)

    Aurene isn't a random egg, she is Glint's last egg. And Glint is the literal child of Kralk, unlike the other dragon shaped minions like Teq and Shatterer, which are just magical constructs. And none of the other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them, so there no other place to get a real dragon egg. Also, she wasn't "conveniently" found. she was given to the Zephyrites by... someone working for/with Glint to keep it safe.

    Aurene is a random egg.

    No-one knew of a remaining egg until it was convenient for the plot for there to be one.

    Also, "No other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them" that's a lot of speculation. Just because no-one has found any doesn't mean that none exist. It's not as if these Elder Dragons are just going to leave their eggs sitting around where any random mortal can happen across them either.

    Yes, she was "Conveniently" found. She was given to the Zephyrites and then we conveniently ran into the Zephyrites in Dry Top and conveniently ran into the Master of Peace after conveniently finding out about the egg from visiting Glint's Lair so that we could happen to get to him right as he died and so get entrusted with the egg.

    Good thing we did too, given that she hatched not long after! Wow, what a coincidence!

    @Taril.8619 said:
    The scarab plague was not "Inquest-recreated" it was the actual plague. They merely took a specimen from Faranhur to experiment with. The actual asura were inconsequential to the entire thing (Especially when Awakened were all throughout Faranhur anyway, they could have stumbled upon the plague), with their only relevance being the gates used to distribute the plague.

    Actually it was Inquest recreated. The inquest found ancient specimens, and spent long amounts of time recreating it through successive generational breeding of the scarabs. Even if Joko's Awakened found the old scarabs, they wouldn't have had the know how to recreate the plague. The Inquest was entirely the source behind its existence in the modern day.

    What's the source for them having recreated it and that being the reason for its existence?

    Since the quest The Road to Rata Primus has Gorrik explain that they have samples of the original plague (Which are the ones that Joko took).

    Meanwhile, going through The Test Subject shows that the experiments that the Inquest are running are to get the plague to work on non-Humans (Notably, charr due to the proximity of the Olmakhan, but also wildlife and skritt are being experimented on)

    Cat: Meow.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    No-one knew of a remaining egg until it was convenient for the plot for there to be one.

    Except anyone who played GW1 and saw Glint's eggs.

    Also, "No other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them" that's a lot of speculation.

    Nothing about that is speculation. None of the Elder Dragons we have encountered, which is all of them except Bubbles at this point, have made any sort of verbal or physical desire to have children. And the uniqueness of Glint, and her children, has been a major plot point throughout the game thus far.

    Good thing we did too, given that she hatched not long after! Wow, what a coincidence!

    Nothing about what you described was coincidental. Glint's whole master plan was to use herself and her children to replace the Elder Dragons. Her children would, you know, have to be hatched to do so. They constantly hammer in that Glint planned most of this out ages ago. If its part of a plan, it isn't coincidental.

    What's the source for them having recreated it and that being the reason for its existence?

    Literally all of episode two of LWS4, and part of episode 3 as well. Gorrik even going after how they found ancient samples(aka dead scarabs) and have been trying to recreate it. Its even a big deal in Long Live the Lich where Gorrik mentions that the scarabs Joko used to attack Amnoon where not the full scarab plague, but only 2nd generation scarabs, and he would need the third generation ones to actually do so. And he only got that at the end of Long Live the Lich because he first used the Inquest to make the first generation scarabs, and then used awakened Inquest to make the 2nd and 3rd generation ones

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    No-one knew of a remaining egg until it was convenient for the plot for there to be one.

    Except anyone who played GW1 and saw Glint's eggs.

    Good thing that's here in GW2 so that the story makes sense.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    Also, "No other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them" that's a lot of speculation.

    Nothing about that is speculation. None of the Elder Dragons we have encountered, which is all of them except Bubbles at this point, have made any sort of verbal or physical desire to have children. And the uniqueness of Glint, and her children, has been a major plot point throughout the game thus far.

    Again, this is speculation. Just because they've shown no desire, doesn't mean they haven't or can't.

    Since again, why would they make this clear in front of mortals?

    The uniqueness of Glint has always been her ability to relate to humans after being cleansed. Which then was proceeded by her making plans to have her children follow in her footsteps and finish her plan if she doesn't suceed herself.

    Nothing about actually having children was made out to be the super unique Glint only thing.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    Good thing we did too, given that she hatched not long after! Wow, what a coincidence!

    Nothing about what you described was coincidental. Glint's whole master plan was to use herself and her children to replace the Elder Dragons. Her children would, you know, have to be hatched to do so. They constantly hammer in that Glint planned most of this out ages ago. If its part of a plan, it isn't coincidental.

    Except it was. Glint didn't forsee Zhaitan's death. Nor Mordremoth's death. As such, the consequences of these things are not part of her plan, Vlast mentions so with his Vision Crystals about how Morty's death brought about the stirring of Kralkatorrik too soon.

    The fact that we happened upon her egg at the exactly the right time, just before it hatched prematurely due to us killing Morty and thus empowering it with Jungle Dragon Juice, is a total coincidence.

    It's hammered in that Glint could not see much past her fight with Kralkatorrik due to the concequences of the fight (I.e. Her death) so all of her plan beyond that point (Which was in the past for all of our characters and the entirety of GW2's story) had to be made under the assumptions of when things should happen.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    What's the source for them having recreated it and that being the reason for its existence?

    Literally all of episode two of LWS4, and part of episode 3 as well. Gorrik even going after how they found ancient samples(aka dead scarabs) and have been trying to recreate it. Its even a big deal in Long Live the Lich where Gorrik mentions that the scarabs Joko used to attack Amnoon where not the full scarab plague, but only 2nd generation scarabs, and he would need the third generation ones to actually do so. And he only got that at the end of Long Live the Lich because he first used the Inquest to make the first generation scarabs, and then used awakened Inquest to make the 2nd and 3rd generation ones

    So you're saying that the inquest was only necessary by way of needing to exist as targets to be awakened?

    That Joko could have simply gotten the Scarab Plague samples from Faranhur and used the corpses of the Inquest there to accomplish his goals even without Rata Primus? Or could have even figured out how to create the necessary 3rd generation of scarabs on his own if the Inquest happened to not be inserted into the story?

    Cat: Meow.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Good thing that's here in GW2 so that the story makes sense.

    This isn't an argument. by this logic the second Lord of the Rings movie should also include everything from the first one so people can just start at the second one and not be confused. Same with the second movie needing to also include everything from the first and second movies. That isn't how narratives work.

    Again, this is speculation. Just because they've shown no desire, doesn't mean they haven't or can't.

    No one said they can't.

    Nothing about actually having children was made out to be the super unique Glint only thing.

    No one said it was.

    Except it was. Glint didn't forsee Zhaitan's death. Nor Mordremoth's death.

    Glint's whole plan was to kill all the Elder Dragons and replace them. So yes, she did foresee it, it was part of her plan. Hell, Aurene was meant to be taken to Tarir because she was meant to replace Mordremoth in the cycle.

    prematurely

    the egg didn't hatch prematurely.

    So you're saying that the inquest was only necessary by way of needing to exist as targets to be awakened?

    Nope, wrong again. The Inquest was needed to have the technical knowledge to start the cycle in the first place. They didn't need to be awakened.

    Its like you are intentionally misrepresenting everything I saw, and everything that happened in the game's story, just to find problems with it that aren't there.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    We had a lot of Norn in Bjora and we'll see more Icebrood in the following episodes, what more do you want ?

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    We had a lot of Norn in Bjora and we'll see more Icebrood in the following episodes, what more do you want ?

    Not to mention we have only met, of the big 4 spirits, Raven and Wolf. I suspect we will get some Bear and Snow Leopard story stuff at some point. Maybe even something Owl related.