Do You Find The Game More Fun To Play Now Or Before Revamp - Page 9 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home PVP

Do You Find The Game More Fun To Play Now Or Before Revamp

145679

Comments

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down.

    Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant.

    I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant.

    They didn't just die to being +1, match ups made a difference in a lot of games where you want to swap your side noders out as one scales better in a fight or has a better match up and the game is going in your favour. Rotations and positioning of fights, whether you go 2 node or 3 node, loads of factors were present in the MotA which you wouldn't have seen pre Feb. We know this because we saw it in the monthly AT.

    They died just to being outnumbered. We saw what the sidenoder "fights" looked like. Honestly the best one was the 2 Sylvari synchronised dancing around Tranquility because they both knew there was no point at all in fighting. Anyway, yes, rotation is a big thing now, because +1s are the only way you kill people. Here is the thing. Those were also there pre-february. In fact, they were just as important as right now. Its just that unlike right now, they werent the only important thing. We just lost micro skill entirely, while gaining nothing. And as a result, sidenoding has become dreadfully unfun. Even with the enjoyment that grenades always bring, Im not fond of just sitting there waiting for my thief to come around and make me able to kill the enemy.

    One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta.

    Its not really that theyre easier to play. Some of them are, but I wouldnt say that Holo is particularly easy to play. The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die. Sidenoders arent skillful because they only have 2 jobs right now. 1, knockback the enemy, and 2, avoid being knockbacked yourself. Everything else doesnt matter, and since both of those tend to stalemate as well, you just see sidenoders messing around waiting for reinforcements. Even if the sidenoders were technically harder builds to play optimally, it wouldnt change a thing, because you dont need to play optimally. The biggest difference would just be that the worse players get knocked back a bit more often.

    I guess you only watched the NA vs NA games then /shrug.

    Nah, I watched the EU games most. Yknow, stuff like Obindo and the enemy rev fighting around Tranquility for 7 minutes without anyone dying. Or hell, Obindos MOTA montage which shows exactly 0 clips of him solo-killing anyone. This is a montage, with the most exciting clips selected, and there isnt one of him solo-killing anyone, because it didnt happen. A few good instant stunbreaks vs knockback though, which is nice, but its sad that that is what sidenoding devolved to.

    "The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die." This is a skill issue. Thank you for agreeing. You should be punished for making major mistakes especially multiple times but they aren't because the skill floor is relatively low and the skill ceiling isn't that much higher.

    Thats not why they arent punished. A low skill floor just means mistakes are less easy to make. No, they arent punished because, if they screw up, what exactly do you do? You cant kill them. The damage just plain isnt there. If you knock them back you decap the point, but thats already happening, and as I said, its not fun.

    As I said, if a lot of side noders required the same skill as mirages require to even hold the node you wouldn't hear much complaining about "bunker meta" anymore.


    Sure, if you put it like that. Problem is, the only way to do that is to bring back a lot of damage. Frankly, damage should never be lower than pre-HoT specialisation patch at the lowest. Right now, it seems were about 20-30% lower than that.

    OMEGALUL literally the first clip is of Obindo beating a holo, sure technically the holo died to Zan's barrage but the enemy holo had lost the fight, the node and was pretty much dead regardless. There's more than one way to win in GW2, something you seem to have forgotten in the power creep era.

    Low skill floor, low ceiling means that skill is not going to be the deciding factor most of the time no matter what you do even if you slap on more damage. You should note I said "holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. " 1v1 builds don't need more damage or at least not a lot more, they need to be able to spike damage on a moderate cool down with a set up required. Otherwise you'll end up with the same problem just that 1v1 builds start dominating the meta. Think old condi chrono just before HoT.

    Condi mirage is actually in a decent spot, to kill it needs to set up on a decent cool down and manage it's cool downs. It can spike very hard but unfortunately needs a lot more skill to pull off than equivalent 1v1 builds because it has to kite and will lose the node when it messes up. Your rotations matter more with mirage. That doesn't mean it's perfect and well balanced just more like what 1v1 node holders should be like.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down.

    Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant.

    I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant.

    They didn't just die to being +1, match ups made a difference in a lot of games where you want to swap your side noders out as one scales better in a fight or has a better match up and the game is going in your favour. Rotations and positioning of fights, whether you go 2 node or 3 node, loads of factors were present in the MotA which you wouldn't have seen pre Feb. We know this because we saw it in the monthly AT.

    They died just to being outnumbered. We saw what the sidenoder "fights" looked like. Honestly the best one was the 2 Sylvari synchronised dancing around Tranquility because they both knew there was no point at all in fighting. Anyway, yes, rotation is a big thing now, because +1s are the only way you kill people. Here is the thing. Those were also there pre-february. In fact, they were just as important as right now. Its just that unlike right now, they werent the only important thing. We just lost micro skill entirely, while gaining nothing. And as a result, sidenoding has become dreadfully unfun. Even with the enjoyment that grenades always bring, Im not fond of just sitting there waiting for my thief to come around and make me able to kill the enemy.

    One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta.

    Its not really that theyre easier to play. Some of them are, but I wouldnt say that Holo is particularly easy to play. The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die. Sidenoders arent skillful because they only have 2 jobs right now. 1, knockback the enemy, and 2, avoid being knockbacked yourself. Everything else doesnt matter, and since both of those tend to stalemate as well, you just see sidenoders messing around waiting for reinforcements. Even if the sidenoders were technically harder builds to play optimally, it wouldnt change a thing, because you dont need to play optimally. The biggest difference would just be that the worse players get knocked back a bit more often.

    I guess you only watched the NA vs NA games then /shrug.

    Nah, I watched the EU games most. Yknow, stuff like Obindo and the enemy rev fighting around Tranquility for 7 minutes without anyone dying. Or hell, Obindos MOTA montage which shows exactly 0 clips of him solo-killing anyone. This is a montage, with the most exciting clips selected, and there isnt one of him solo-killing anyone, because it didnt happen. A few good instant stunbreaks vs knockback though, which is nice, but its sad that that is what sidenoding devolved to.

    "The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die." This is a skill issue. Thank you for agreeing. You should be punished for making major mistakes especially multiple times but they aren't because the skill floor is relatively low and the skill ceiling isn't that much higher.

    Thats not why they arent punished. A low skill floor just means mistakes are less easy to make. No, they arent punished because, if they screw up, what exactly do you do? You cant kill them. The damage just plain isnt there. If you knock them back you decap the point, but thats already happening, and as I said, its not fun.

    As I said, if a lot of side noders required the same skill as mirages require to even hold the node you wouldn't hear much complaining about "bunker meta" anymore.


    Sure, if you put it like that. Problem is, the only way to do that is to bring back a lot of damage. Frankly, damage should never be lower than pre-HoT specialisation patch at the lowest. Right now, it seems were about 20-30% lower than that.

    OMEGALUL literally the first clip is of Obindo beating a holo, sure technically the holo died to Zan's barrage but the enemy holo had lost the fight, the node and was pretty much dead regardless. There's more than one way to win in GW2, something you seem to have forgotten in the power creep era.

    He hadnt. Obindo had completely exhausted his offensive abilities, and the holo had enough time to wait for heat therapy to kick in and for his healing skill to recharge. Without Zans Barrage, that fight wouldve stalemated. In fact, he didnt even leave the point until Zan appeared, so without Zan, he probably wouldve stayed on the point. There is more than one way to win in GW2 in theory, but right now its knockback or outnumbering.

    Low skill floor, low ceiling means that skill is not going to be the deciding factor most of the time no matter what you do even if you slap on more damage. You should note I said "holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. " 1v1 builds don't need more damage or at least not a lot more, they need to be able to spike damage on a moderate cool down with a set up required. Otherwise you'll end up with the same problem just that 1v1 builds start dominating the meta. Think old condi chrono just before HoT.

    If you increase damage, then skill floor increases. If damage gets higher, mistakes are more easily punished, and punished harder. Meaning players cant keep screwing up. And then, you dont have this issue. 1v1 builds absolutely need more damage, everyone needs more damage (again, no lower than pre-HoT specialisation, which right now means about a 25% damage boost across the board). Anyway, 1v1 builds cant dominate the meta because teamfights will still happen. We just get 1v1 builds that can kill other 1v1 builds, rather than the current state where if no one comes to +1 you, and the objective youre fighting for cant be won by knockback, you just synchronise your dances because there is no point doing anything else, as we saw in the MOTA.

    Condi mirage is actually in a decent spot, to kill it needs to set up on a decent cool down and manage it's cool downs. It can spike very hard but unfortunately needs a lot more skill to pull off than equivalent 1v1 builds because it has to kite and will lose the node when it messes up. Your rotations matter more with mirage. That doesn't mean it's perfect and well balanced just more like what 1v1 node holders should be like.

    Condi Mirage cannot solo-kill any player right now. Its spike is far too low for that, its a build that bursts together with others. As a sidenoder its awful because it doesnt have a good knockback.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    ^ when the game was actually fun

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Disagree, waaay too many blocks/invuls/evades on too short of a CD.

    I disagree. The skill ceiling was significantly higher back then. Good players would be able to consistently win their 1v1s and outskill people 1vX. It was perfect. The people complaining about the cooldowns being too short simply didn't know how to trade cooldowns effectively and react fast enough.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    ? people still be like " now is more fun then pre feb 25th"? bruh
    i guess people like to pve against bots

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020
    now game is more fun

    @shadowpass.4236 said :
    Good players would be able to consistently win their 1v1s and outskill people 1vX.

    Good class yeah, do the same vid with a mesmer vs ranger pre-patch it would not be the same at all.

    @UNOwen.7132 :
    kitten is 1v1 build ?
    You have sidenoders who will do endless fight versus other sidenoders and who win against +1.
    You have +1 who do even fight versus other +1 (supposely) and are the only way to kill sidenoders.
    You have teamfight class who fight for ages in a 2+v2+ fight with some tools to rez/heal/aoeCC/damage.
    "1v1" build in a 5v5 rotation capture game is only a few part of it. It was just +1 with bad mobility reconverting.
    What you just want is everyone +1 while having even more tools to do the said behind roles. It's not the case for everyone.

    High damage has nothing to do with skill floor. It's harder to build up a damage output (output clones, stack might, comboing.) than to just throw half life in one clic. Same for concentration uptime. When you look at my previous vids, you think that I need more damage ? You think a game where everyone spend most of his time walking from respawn or can't go into fight is fun ?

    Btw as promised, vids on less mobile, less damage, more sidenode build :
    I don't feel unkillable, and apart versus the condirev and condiranger I don't feel opponent were unkillable. Mean It's not endless fight. (I did a hellish fail in the last, don't need to come on this, I already know it.)





  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said :
    Good players would be able to consistently win their 1v1s and outskill people 1vX.

    Good class yeah, do the same vid with a mesmer vs ranger pre-patch it would not be the same at all.

    Actually, it wouldnt be much different. More focus on condi clearing, but thats about it.

    @UNOwen.7132 :
    kitten is 1v1 build ?
    You have sidenoders who will do endless fight versus other sidenoders and who win against +1.

    That is not what sidenoders are supposed to be. But the fact that you believe this explains a lot to be honest. No, a sidenoder is not supposed to have endless fights. A sidenoder is someone who fights on the sidenode, and eventually wins or loses.

    You have +1 who do even fight versus other +1 (supposely) and are the only way to kill sidenoders.

    First of all, they dont. Generally +1 classes avoid each other, not much point really given how good they tend to be at running away. Exceptions apply. Second, they are NOT supposed to be the only way to kill sidenoders.

    You have teamfight class who fight for ages in a 2+v2+ fight with some tools to rez/heal/aoeCC/damage.
    "1v1" build in a 5v5 rotation capture game is only a few part of it. It was just +1 with bad mobility reconverting.
    What you just want is everyone +1 while having even more tools to do the said behind roles. It's not the case for everyone.

    No? No matter what you do, no class can match thief in +1s simply because of thieves shortbow 5. Thats also why its not the goal. What I want is for sidenoders to not be a waste of time class that has to wait for others to be able to be useful. But at least you finally admitted the horrible problem the current patch has, even if you think its not an issue. I guess as a +1 player you just couldnt understand how those filthy sidenoders dare not have to rely on you. Youre their superior after all, right?

    High damage has nothing to do with skill floor. It's harder to build up a damage output (output clones, stack might, comboing.) than to just throw half life in one clic. Same for concentration uptime. When you look at my previous vids, you think that I need more damage ? You think a game where everyone spend most of his time walking from respawn or can't go into fight is fun ?

    High damage has everything to do with skillfloor. Higher damage means easier and more punishable mistakes. Means you can make fewer mistakes. Means higher skill-level. And why are you talking about +1 situations still, thats not the point. Also, "You think a game where everyone spend most of his time walking from respawn or can't go into fight is fun ?" I believe I had already explained that that wasnt the case pre-patch at all.

    Btw as promised, vids on less mobile, less damage, more sidenode build :
    I don't feel unkillable, and apart versus the condirev and condiranger I don't feel opponent were unkillable. Mean It's not endless fight. (I did a hellish fail in the last, don't need to come on this, I already know it.)





    Lets see. First video is irrelevant, you have a grand total of 0 1v1s. Always outnumbering or outnumbered. Second video, hey you got a 1v1 kill. Against another unviable class which says nothing about the meta. Who spammed skills under confusion. Then a Rev you cant kill, but almost die to because Mesmer is unplayable thanks to the new patch. The rest falls into either category. Now, try playing any of the actual sidenoders. No unplayable mesmer nonsense, Holo, Rev, Ranger. See what that looks like. You will find you still cant kill the enemy, but you wont be dying anymore either.

    But ultimately, you dont need to say anything. You have already admitted that this meta is garbage. You have just also admitted that you dont see it as a problem, because youre not a sidenoder player and you dont care for sidenoders. Quite the opposite, it seems youre only happy with a meta when theyre dependent on you and dont matter otherwise. Its quite selfish, but it explains a lot.

  • PLS.4095PLS.4095 Member ✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    just because the old meta, which was high-skill and punished mistakes

    UNOwen's credibility : I am here !
    Me : Where ?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I find that games are more fun when hackers & match manipulators are banned.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132

    +1 should be the only way to finish sidenders, if it's not the case, there will always be ONE sidenoder way behind the other.
    Now tell my why someone having more sustain should do as much damage as someone having less sustain but more mobility and damage. You know the "I do everything in every single build" powercreep I don't want to be back.
    If someone choose to be tankier while dropping damage on mobility, let them the possibility to choose this omg. They don't prevent you to play squishy specs.

    High damage reduce skillfloor way more than it upgrade it. (lmao It's exactly the same WvW discussion with WvWers who want easy structure cap to promote fight while it destroy it.).
    By the way : coming, bursting half life or being half life it make 10 sec concentrtion session. Versus building setup, rupting many keyskill and mindly bursting on multiple windows is way harder.
    And sorry but just look at : https://youtu.be/9LP8k0JdNzQ?t=31
    1) it's not low damage.
    2) the animation came at the same time as the damage. So your "mistake are punishable" look more like : the higher the number of instant atomic button, the better it is.
    Which isn't skill for me. What you don't understand is that there will always be class with better tools than other for the same finality that's why not focus on "duelling" but on overall build with pro AND CONS. Is better than having everyone plated with everything. It also increase drasticly the need to rotate.

    About vids review, PvP is around rotating and taking best fight for his class/build, not about "duelling" someone to be "selfish" as you mention it (and like it was to rollface people before probably.).
    It's fun how you rarely see unkillable condi tank rev because you know, it's slow so it has weakness.

  • now game is more fun

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020

    @Jables.4659 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    For me nothing changed. I run exactly the same builds like before but changed the amulet from paladin to marauder.

    The meta changed.

    This thread is not about the meta. It's about "Do you find the game more fun... ?"

    @apharma.3741 said:
    One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta.

    A bunker build is just another cheese build. A oneshot build or a 3 shot build with 90% evasion/block uptime, both are cheese builds as well. It makes no difference in terms of required skill.

    Stating that bunker requires less skill is simply not true. Surviving on a bunker build requires less skill, yes, but winning does not. Bunker builds don't get higher winrates against me just because they play bunker.

    If someone plays a competitive game for surviving and calls this an achievement, he might just stop playing competitive. Playing to stall a matchup/encounter is the dumbest and most unhealthy thing you can do ... but yes, the game is full of these people. Like it is full of people, that would play oneshot builds all day if they could and bypass the whole combat mechanic. That's also pretty dumb.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @UNOwen.7132

    +1 should be the only way to finish sidenders, if it's not the case, there will always be ONE sidenoder way behind the other.

    Ignoring how wrong the first part is, Im not sure i understand what logic you have for the other one. Are you saying its bad if a sidenoder can lose a 1v1 on his own because then he is behind after, well, losing? Because that is unbelievably stupid.

    Now tell my why someone having more sustain should do as much damage as someone having less sustain but more mobility and damage. You know the "I do everything in every single build" powercreep I don't want to be back.

    Because they have less burst damage but more sustained damage? Again Im not sure what the point of this is other than you wanting to feel superior to sidenoders by making them irrelevant without you.

    If someone choose to be tankier while dropping damage on mobility, let them the possibility to choose this omg. They don't prevent you to play squishy specs.

    ... you do know that "sidenoder" and "bunker" are different things, right? Besides, theyre free to choose that. But fights should end, one way or another.

    High damage reduce skillfloor way more than it upgrade it. (lmao It's exactly the same WvW discussion with WvWers who want easy structure cap to promote fight while it destroy it.).

    Hilariously incorrect. High damage doesnt reduce skillfloor at all, it ONLY increases it, in a game where active defenses exist.

    By the way : coming, bursting half life or being half life it make 10 sec concentrtion session. Versus building setup, rupting many keyskill and mindly bursting on multiple windows is way harder.

    Weve been over this. Its not "10 second concentration sessions". Fights lasted for up to a minute. A minute of having to carefully setup, dodge and time everything. As opposed to now ,where you dont setup or time anything and just throw everything off cooldown.

    And sorry but just look at : https://youtu.be/9LP8k0JdNzQ?t=31
    1) it's not low damage.
    2) the animation came at the same time as the damage. So your "mistake are punishable" look more like : the higher the number of instant atomic button, the better it is.

    6000 damage on a squishy enemy is indeed low. And no, you saw that he used Phase Traversal and had quickness, and still had time to dodge the second hit of deathstrike (aka the one that does damage). You had every opportunity to avoid that. You just werent good enough to.

    Which isn't skill for me. What you don't understand is that there will always be class with better tools than other for the same finality that's why not focus on "duelling" but on overall build with pro AND CONS. Is better than having everyone plated with everything. It also increase drasticly the need to rotate.

    We already went over this. Every build didnt have everything. Thats just an imaginary fantasy world you built for yourself because you couldnt stand the fact that the sidenoders dared not to rely on you. You want a meta where you are the only one who matters, and where those filthy sidenoders kneel before your superior might.

    Sure, removing micro skill makes macro skill more important. Thats not a good thing. Thats a bad thing.

    About vids review, PvP is around rotating and taking best fight for his class/build, not about "duelling" someone to be "selfish" as you mention it (and like it was to rollface people before probably.).

    There is nothing selfish about being able to kill someone as a sidenoder. What is selfish is to basically deny the sidenoders any agency and any fun, and make them reliant on you.

    It's fun how you rarely see unkillable condi tank rev because you know, it's slow so it has weakness.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. "You rarely see condi rev". I get that youre saying whatever to try and justify your unjustifiable position but this is a riot. Yes, the class thats in just about every game, sometimes multiple times on the same team, is something "you rarely see".

    But just to summarise, the reason you prefer this meta isnt because its more skilled (it isnt, and far from it), or because its more diverse (it isnt, and far from it), or even because you think its more fun. Its because you HATE sidenoders, and you want to feel superior to them. You want to take away their agency, their fun, their very reason to play the game, and make them nothing more than your vassals. But hey, you already admitted that the meta is garbage, even if your hate blinds you to the fact that that is bad.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    High damage reduce skillfloor way more than it upgrade it. (lmao It's exactly the same WvW discussion with WvWers who want easy structure cap to promote fight while it destroy it.).

    Hilariously incorrect. High damage doesnt reduce skillfloor at all, it ONLY increases it, in a game where active defenses exist.

    No, just no. If you only need to use 20% of yours skills to kill someone, high damage didn't increase skillfloor at all.

    And sorry but just look at : https://youtu.be/9LP8k0JdNzQ?t=31
    1) it's not low damage.
    2) the animation came at the same time as the damage. So your "mistake are punishable" look more like : the higher the number of instant atomic button, the better it is.

    6000 damage on a squishy enemy is indeed low. And no, you saw that he used Phase Traversal and had quickness, and still had time to dodge the second hit of deathstrike (aka the one that does damage). You had every opportunity to avoid that. You just werent good enough to.

    6000 damage IS high damage. kitten powercreeped norms.
    Yeah, and same for 0:43 lmao, just evade lol.

    Which isn't skill for me. What you don't understand is that there will always be class with better tools than other for the same finality that's why not focus on "duelling" but on overall build with pro AND CONS. Is better than having everyone plated with everything. It also increase drasticly the need to rotate.

    We already went over this. Every build didnt have everything. Thats just an imaginary fantasy world you built for yourself because you couldnt stand the fact that the sidenoders dared not to rely on you. You want a meta where you are the only one who matters, and where those filthy sidenoders kneel before your superior might.

    Give me prepatch meta classes who hadn't damage, CC, mobility, sustain with sometimes aoe effects or other things on them, you can even look at boon uptime. Mesmer was one of the few. Apart support FB nobody had to choose between damage or other things.

    Sure, removing micro skill makes macro skill more important. Thats not a good thing. Thats a bad thing.

    About vids review, PvP is around rotating and taking best fight for his class/build, not about "duelling" someone to be "selfish" as you mention it (and like it was to rollface people before probably.).

    There is nothing selfish about being able to kill someone as a sidenoder. What is selfish is to basically deny the sidenoders any agency and any fun, and make them reliant on you.

    BECAUSE A FUN GAME IS ABOUT MAKING CHOICE WITH PRO AND CONS. Crappy generation who can't enjoy games if they aren't the god character with everything.

    It's fun how you rarely see unkillable condi tank rev because you know, it's slow so it has weakness.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. "You rarely see condi rev". I get that youre saying whatever to try and justify your unjustifiable position but this is a riot. Yes, the class thats in just about every game, sometimes multiple times on the same team, is something "you rarely see".

    How many in vids linked ? Hmm sure every game HAHAHAHAHAHA. Compared to the 4 thieves pre-patch.

    But just to summarise, the reason you prefer this meta isnt because its more skilled (it isnt, and far from it), or because its more diverse (it isnt, and far from it), or even because you think its more fun. Its because you HATE sidenoders, and you want to feel superior to them. You want to take away their agency, their fun, their very reason to play the game, and make them nothing more than your vassals. But hey, you already admitted that the meta is garbage, even if your hate blinds you to the fact that that is bad.

    Guy I played chrono sidenode during most of HoT, dropping damage to do this, compared to condi meta build. If you think that it is something who impact my judgment you are pretty misinformed. We can even found some old sind vids where I'm. So I know what I'm talking about and it's certainly not whatever superior, neither I feel superior playing carrying build who 2 shot everyone.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    High damage reduce skillfloor way more than it upgrade it. (lmao It's exactly the same WvW discussion with WvWers who want easy structure cap to promote fight while it destroy it.).

    Hilariously incorrect. High damage doesnt reduce skillfloor at all, it ONLY increases it, in a game where active defenses exist.

    No, just no. If you only need to use 20% of yours skills to kill someone, high damage didn't increase skillfloor at all.

    Thats not the same as high damage. Given that they can just dodge your high damage skills, and the fact that you needed to dodge theirs, however does mean its increasing the skillfloor.

    And sorry but just look at : https://youtu.be/9LP8k0JdNzQ?t=31
    1) it's not low damage.
    2) the animation came at the same time as the damage. So your "mistake are punishable" look more like : the higher the number of instant atomic button, the better it is.

    6000 damage on a squishy enemy is indeed low. And no, you saw that he used Phase Traversal and had quickness, and still had time to dodge the second hit of deathstrike (aka the one that does damage). You had every opportunity to avoid that. You just werent good enough to.

    6000 damage IS high damage. kitten powercreeped norms.
    Yeah, and same for 0:43 lmao, just evade lol.

    What do you mean "powercreeped norms". The only time 6000 damage was considered high damage was back when all stats were lower and as a result damage and health was just lower. But since we have had the same stat system we use now, 6000 damage is pretty low. Even as far back as the specialisation patch, 6000 damage is not much. Did you really not know that?

    Which isn't skill for me. What you don't understand is that there will always be class with better tools than other for the same finality that's why not focus on "duelling" but on overall build with pro AND CONS. Is better than having everyone plated with everything. It also increase drasticly the need to rotate.

    We already went over this. Every build didnt have everything. Thats just an imaginary fantasy world you built for yourself because you couldnt stand the fact that the sidenoders dared not to rely on you. You want a meta where you are the only one who matters, and where those filthy sidenoders kneel before your superior might.

    Give me prepatch meta classes who hadn't damage, CC, mobility, sustain with sometimes aoe effects or other things on them, you can even look at boon uptime. Mesmer was one of the few. Apart support FB nobody had to choose between damage or other things.

    If you put it as vague as now, I just posit the counterquestion to you, show me a single build that doesnt have all of that right now. However, lets say were talking "high damage, high mobility, good CC, high sustain" and so on, then the answer is "all of them". Thief had alright damage and high mobility, but no sustain and poor CC. Engineer had high sustain and decent CC, but mediocre mobility and mediocre damage (unless it was explosive or kinetic holo, in which case it swaps sustain and damage). Ranger lacked good CC and its damage was limited by certain windows. Necro had great sustain and good CC and decent damage, but poor mobility. And so on.

    Sure, removing micro skill makes macro skill more important. Thats not a good thing. Thats a bad thing.

    About vids review, PvP is around rotating and taking best fight for his class/build, not about "duelling" someone to be "selfish" as you mention it (and like it was to rollface people before probably.).

    There is nothing selfish about being able to kill someone as a sidenoder. What is selfish is to basically deny the sidenoders any agency and any fun, and make them reliant on you.

    BECAUSE A FUN GAME IS ABOUT MAKING CHOICE WITH PRO AND CONS. Crappy generation who can't enjoy games if they aren't the god character with everything.

    Says the guy who prefers a meta where you make no choices with pros and cons, and wants to be a god character that others depend on. Really, youre just sounding like principle skinner here. "Am I so out of touch? No, its the children who are wrong". Yes, a fun game is about making choices with pros and cons. I dont make any choice as a sidenoder other than just sitting there waiting for someone else to come kill.

    It's fun how you rarely see unkillable condi tank rev because you know, it's slow so it has weakness.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. "You rarely see condi rev". I get that youre saying whatever to try and justify your unjustifiable position but this is a riot. Yes, the class thats in just about every game, sometimes multiple times on the same team, is something "you rarely see".

    How many in vids linked ? Hmm sure every game HAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Youve admitted yourself before that you dont see the meta. So, yknow, its no surprise that you dont see the meta after admitting you dont see the meta.

    But just to summarise, the reason you prefer this meta isnt because its more skilled (it isnt, and far from it), or because its more diverse (it isnt, and far from it), or even because you think its more fun. Its because you HATE sidenoders, and you want to feel superior to them. You want to take away their agency, their fun, their very reason to play the game, and make them nothing more than your vassals. But hey, you already admitted that the meta is garbage, even if your hate blinds you to the fact that that is bad.

    Guy I played chrono sidenode during most of HoT, dropping damage to do this, compared to condi meta build. If you think that it is something who impact my judgment you are pretty misinformed. We can even found some old sind vids where I'm. So I know what I'm talking about and it's certainly not whatever superior, neither I feel superior playing carrying build who 2 shot everyone.

    You ... you really dont understand that "bunker" and "sidenoder" arent the same thing, do you? Like, your entire argument is based on you having a critical lack of basic knowledge, huh? The sidenoders right now arent bunkers. Theyre zerker builds that just cant kill the enemy because damage is too low. And no, its pretty clear that you still hate sidenoders and dont want them to have any fun. Who knows why. But its clear that that is the only reason you prefer this meta. You want them to have no fun, to be dependent on you, to feel superior.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 :

    UNOwen definition of skillfloor : count 1 dodge, count 2 dodge, burst !
    viquing definition of skillfloor : count the 2 dodges + during this time prepare burst by stacking might, putting weakness etc. + do it multiple time.

    Sorry but your version look way more easy to achieve.

    Play mesmer, like really, even prepacth, you will see that 6000 damage is HIGH considering the higher we can do is on a full glasscanon with modifier shatter 4k/clones. While some other class can do it on multiple skills with less setup.
    Did you really know that we never fight with the same tools ?
    Did you ever win a 1v1 versus any top thief with a power mesmer since launch ?
    The day mesmer scepter did the same damage as necro axe for the same type channeled skill, there were plethora of "mesmer op" whining on forum until it was nerfed.
    I will not go into a mesmer post but it hurt reading 6000 damage is low, it really hurt...

    Right now even the most unkillable builds I met : condi ranger and rev are slow which is an exploitable weakness.
    Thief had vigor uptime, multiple evade on skills, condi clear and breakstunt. They had single target on demand CC with pistol and AOE with shortbow.
    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.
    Ranger lackked good CC ??? Guy a least : 1 on longbow, 2 on pet, 2 on GS. What look like a good CC class if ranger is a bad CC class ? Necro mobility isn't a major issue anymore since teleport and rune of speed. And so on.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?
    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 :

    UNOwen definition of skillfloor : count 1 dodge, count 2 dodge, burst !
    viquing definition of skillfloor : count the 2 dodges + during this time prepare burst by stacking might, putting weakness etc. + do it multiple time.

    How many times have I debunked both of these. Lets fix it to be the truth, shall we?

    UNOwen definition of skillfloor: Force the enemy to use his defenses inefficiently by using feints, staggering and switching up damage rotation, using windows in his attacks to crack back with a stun without using any followup and the like, while using your defenses effectively and watching out for his feints and so on while also watching for boons to steal or corrupt and optimal usage of certain defensive boons all while setting up your high damage skills.
    viquings definition of skillfloor: Just spam every attack off cooldown. Dont bother timing or staggering anything, you cant afford to lower your maximum DPS. Forget about feints, setups or even boon corrupts, none of it matters. Just wait for someone to +1 you.

    Sorry but your version look way more easy to achieve.

    After we changed it to the truth, yours looks way easier to achieve.

    Play mesmer, like really, even prepacth, you will see that 6000 damage is HIGH considering the higher we can do is on a full glasscanon with modifier shatter 4k/clones. While some other class can do it on multiple skills with less setup.

    You mean the same Mesmer whose power burst did something like 13000-17000 in less than a split second? Which it has been doing since the specialisation days? Compared to that 6k is considered high? What a joke.

    Did you really know that we never fight with the same tools ?

    Yes, thats what differentiated the old meta from the current one. Back then everyone had different tools and different ways of fighting and winning fights. Now its all the same tools. Knockbacks, and nothing else matters.

    Did you ever win a 1v1 versus any top thief with a power mesmer since launch ?

    Yes? At times it wasnt even exactly hard. But even if that werent the case, you do know counters exist, right?

    The day mesmer scepter did the same damage as necro axe for the same type channeled skill, there were plethora of "mesmer op" whining on forum until it was nerfed.
    I will not go into a mesmer post but it hurt reading 6000 damage is low, it really hurt...

    Only because you are so unaware of what your own class does you didnt realise 6k was peanuts to it.

    Right now even the most unkillable builds I met : condi ranger and rev are slow which is an exploitable weakness.

    Ok, so lets dissect this, shall we? First of all, "Condi Ranger". Condi Ranger is not played much. Because it lacks the one tool every sidenoder needs to have, a knockback. The actually played version is power Zerk ranger. Its just as unkillable as all other sidenoders. Its not slow at all, its got good mobility. For that matter, I dont know why you think a perma-swiftness class is slow.

    Thief had vigor uptime, multiple evade on skills, condi clear and breakstunt. They had single target on demand CC with pistol and AOE with shortbow.

    Guess you didnt know what thief was about either. First of all, thiefs condi clears are atrocious. It has 2 3 condi clears, but both are also really valuable cooldowns for other purposes, one being a stunbreak (also you think stunbreaks are something unique rather than something every class has?). Second, thiefs vigor uptime was quickly ripped or corrupted, with no way of getting it back. And you think daze is a good CC? Its not, compared to stuns, knockdowns, knockbacks and launches. And Headshot isnt even a proper Daze. Still, thief had far lower defenses than most classes, low health, minimal self-healing, and generally just wasnt capable of staying in a fight.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    lol bots number never increased, just now people refuse to play this trash game that it seems like there's a lot of bots.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    you have to go absolute glass cannon to touch tanky classes, but when you go that way anything that doesnt go full meme like you can burst you down harder and way more often

  • now game is more fun

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    Don't use words you barely understand, current meta is far from "bunker", there are few outliners for sure, but overall it's far from it. But that's what you get when you keep screaming BUFFFFFFFFFFF to everything instead of properly balancing game since HoT release.
    What your video showed is: unreasonable high boon uptime, abuse of an exploit, poorly designed e-spec, bad balance design aka low cd on high impact skills.
    Since when abusing poorly designed mechanic is considered 'evade trick'? Abusing poorly designed mechanic is called 'trick' these days, instead of asking to fix it? Just wow.
    Game was powercreeped and that's a FACT, current state of balance is the result of constant adding more skills that were low cd - big effect and not adressing them together with nerf-bat, same goes for sustain and condies and ccs.
    Yea, I can bully newbies within a minute or two as well, your point? You know why your fights last so long? Because of powercreeped sustain, which wasn't touched as it should be with 25th patch. Now imagine if A-net decided to increase heal skill cd to atleast 30s, all utilities to minimum of 40s and if they have more effects 60s+, elite skills atleast to 90s. THEN you would actually think before acting, unlike HoT and PoF meta.
    If you like or not, game was dumbed down skill-wise with HoT and PoF elite speces, increased damage, sustain, boons, condies, everything.
    Atleast now you need to pick A or B instead of getting everything in one package.
    If you really believe it's "bunker meta" then I wonder what were you doing while chronobunkers were on rampage...
    Current meta is much healthier(beside few outliners like Holo, cRev, FB) in long run for the game since Core times.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    Don't use words you barely understand, current meta is far from "bunker", there are few outliners for sure, but overall it's far from it. But that's what you get when you keep screaming BUFFFFFFFFFFF to everything instead of properly balancing game since HoT release.

    Bunker is the wrong word, but the fact is the meta consists of classes that cant die because damage is way too low.

    What your video showed is: unreasonable high boon uptime, abuse of an exploit, poorly designed e-spec, bad balance design aka low cd on high impact skills.
    Since when abusing poorly designed mechanic is considered 'evade trick'? Abusing poorly designed mechanic is called 'trick' these days, instead of asking to fix it? Just wow.

    Why do you think its a poorly designed mechanic.

    Game was powercreeped and that's a FACT, current state of balance is the result of constant adding more skills that were low cd - big effect and not adressing them together with nerf-bat, same goes for sustain and condies and ccs.

    The game had some powercreep, yes. But now we have major powerdip (the opposite of powercreep). The current power level of classes is far below what it has been in the entire history of the game. As I mentioned before, damage should never be below specialisation patch level damage at all. Currently were a full 20-30% below it.

    Yea, I can bully newbies within a minute or two as well, your point? You know why your fights last so long? Because of powercreeped sustain, which wasn't touched as it should be with 25th patch. Now imagine if A-net decided to increase heal skill cd to atleast 30s, all utilities to minimum of 40s and if they have more effects 60s+, elite skills atleast to 90s. THEN you would actually think before acting, unlike HoT and PoF meta.

    Yeah, except not really. If you actually were to look at the classes, their sustain is not higher than it was during, say, the specialisation days. In fact, quite the opposite. Its lower. And the next sentence shows just why the "powercreep" argument goes flying out the window. Why are you increasing cooldowns far beyond what they have ever been? We never had cooldowns that long. And no, longer cooldowns doesnt make the game more tactical, it just means you have longer periods where you do nothing but autoing. Its boring, its not skillful, its just dull.

    If you like or not, game was dumbed down skill-wise with HoT and PoF elite speces, increased damage, sustain, boons, condies, everything.

    Whether you like it or not, it actually hasnt been. The skillcap increased. Its the recent patch that made the skillcap plummet.

    Atleast now you need to pick A or B instead of getting everything in one package.

    You never could get everything in one package. However, since damage now is far too low, you basically can now, because youre unkillable just by being a zerker anyway.

    If you really believe it's "bunker meta" then I wonder what were you doing while chronobunkers were on rampage...

    At least in bunker chrono times you could kill the people who werent chrono. Not so much right now.

    Current meta is much healthier(beside few outliners like Holo, cRev, FB) in long run for the game since Core times.

    Nope. The current meta is the least healthy we had yet. Its got major problems, the fact that damage is far below core times, while sustain is only slightly below core times. The fact that with that low damage, skillful play is out the window and you just use everything off cooldown. In the long run, the only way to fix this meta is to massively increase damage and admit the patch was a bad idea to begin with.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    Don't use words you barely understand, current meta is far from "bunker", there are few outliners for sure, but overall it's far from it. But that's what you get when you keep screaming BUFFFFFFFFFFF to everything instead of properly balancing game since HoT release.
    What your video showed is: unreasonable high boon uptime, abuse of an exploit, poorly designed e-spec, bad balance design aka low cd on high impact skills.
    Since when abusing poorly designed mechanic is considered 'evade trick'? Abusing poorly designed mechanic is called 'trick' these days, instead of asking to fix it? Just wow.
    Game was powercreeped and that's a FACT, current state of balance is the result of constant adding more skills that were low cd - big effect and not adressing them together with nerf-bat, same goes for sustain and condies and ccs.
    Yea, I can bully newbies within a minute or two as well, your point? You know why your fights last so long? Because of powercreeped sustain, which wasn't touched as it should be with 25th patch. Now imagine if A-net decided to increase heal skill cd to atleast 30s, all utilities to minimum of 40s and if they have more effects 60s+, elite skills atleast to 90s. THEN you would actually think before acting, unlike HoT and PoF meta.
    If you like or not, game was dumbed down skill-wise with HoT and PoF elite speces, increased damage, sustain, boons, condies, everything.
    Atleast now you need to pick A or B instead of getting everything in one package.
    If you really believe it's "bunker meta" then I wonder what were you doing while chronobunkers were on rampage...
    Current meta is much healthier(beside few outliners like Holo, cRev, FB) in long run for the game since Core times.

    https://clips.twitch.tv/VastRoundDootHassanChop

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    You can't 1vsX unless your spec is busted because no matter how great people may think to be , X number of opponents should be able to down you in no time. Now the situation change when your spec is busted because maybe you can chain evades/blocks/stealth in a short amount of time or you have access to long lasting resilience boons or stealth jumping or else....yeah you can 1vsX there, because your spec is busted

    Also your clips show two so called "TOP tier" individuals stalling each other, going by logic alone we believe that what should happen in every situation where both parties display same range of possibilities , both players are playing two specs designed for stalling side nodes, playing them at the "maximum" capacity

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2020
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 :

    UNOwen definition of skillfloor : count 1 dodge, count 2 dodge, burst !
    viquing definition of skillfloor : count the 2 dodges + during this time prepare burst by stacking might, putting weakness etc. + do it multiple time.

    How many times have I debunked both of these. Lets fix it to be the truth, shall we?

    UNOwen definition of skillfloor: Force the enemy to use his defenses inefficiently by using feints, staggering and switching up damage rotation, using windows in his attacks to crack back with a stun without using any followup and the like, while using your defenses effectively and watching out for his feints and so on while also watching for boons to steal or corrupt and optimal usage of certain defensive boons all while setting up your high damage skills.
    viquings definition of skillfloor: Just spam every attack off cooldown. Dont bother timing or staggering anything, you cant afford to lower your maximum DPS. Forget about feints, setups or even boon corrupts, none of it matters. Just wait for someone to +1 you.

    Lol this amount of dishonnesty and carricature.
    If you want to spam, you can do it in the two version. It the first case, it will be efficient as if the opponent did 1 fail, it will pressure him while in the second case, you will never kill him, even with a +1 if you really rollface.
    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.
    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    Play mesmer, like really, even prepacth, you will see that 6000 damage is HIGH considering the higher we can do is on a full glasscanon with modifier shatter 4k/clones. While some other class can do it on multiple skills with less setup.

    You mean the same Mesmer whose power burst did something like 13000-17000 in less than a split second? Which it has been doing since the specialisation days? Compared to that 6k is considered high? What a joke.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    Did you really know that we never fight with the same tools ?

    Yes, thats what differentiated the old meta from the current one. Back then everyone had different tools and different ways of fighting and winning fights. Now its all the same tools. Knockbacks, and nothing else matters.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    Did you ever win a 1v1 versus any top thief with a power mesmer since launch ?

    Yes? At times it wasnt even exactly hard. But even if that werent the case, you do know counters exist, right?

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    The day mesmer scepter did the same damage as necro axe for the same type channeled skill, there were plethora of "mesmer op" whining on forum until it was nerfed.
    I will not go into a mesmer post but it hurt reading 6000 damage is low, it really hurt...

    Only because you are so unaware of what your own class does you didnt realise 6k was peanuts to it.

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.
    Then we can look at other class way do deal this damage.

    Right now even the most unkillable builds I met : condi ranger and rev are slow which is an exploitable weakness.

    Ok, so lets dissect this, shall we? First of all, "Condi Ranger". Condi Ranger is not played much. Because it lacks the one tool every sidenoder needs to have, a knockback. The actually played version is power Zerk ranger. Its just as unkillable as all other sidenoders. Its not slow at all, its got good mobility. For that matter, I dont know why you think a perma-swiftness class is slow.

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    Thief had vigor uptime, multiple evade on skills, condi clear and breakstunt. They had single target on demand CC with pistol and AOE with shortbow.

    Guess you didnt know what thief was about either. First of all, thiefs condi clears are atrocious. It has 2 3 condi clears, but both are also really valuable cooldowns for other purposes, one being a stunbreak (also you think stunbreaks are something unique rather than something every class has?). Second, thiefs vigor uptime was quickly ripped or corrupted, with no way of getting it back. And you think daze is a good CC? Its not, compared to stuns, knockdowns, knockbacks and launches. And Headshot isnt even a proper Daze. Still, thief had far lower defenses than most classes, low health, minimal self-healing, and generally just wasnt capable of staying in a fight.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.
    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.
    Guy I don't know if you onle play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when even core vigor application on mes was nerfed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer CC options and see that all rupt build are based on mantra of distraction or diversion who are .... DAZE.
    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.
    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Because this meta didn't exists apart on few forum whine who extrapolate ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    Will make it clear for you : a zerk signet mesmer will tank more than a paladin power mesmer.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Yeah except it wasnt, Mesmer was kitting slow setup from condi auto clone and it's not because one player manage to win for the meme with a particular setup that it was (if there wasn't 2 thieves as bodygard it would never work.). Mean in this case he could be playing anything else (or a 3rd thief for example), the result would be the same.
    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

    Yeah one monochoice per class, because one build regroup most tools in one. That's was the problem.
    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    You can't 1vsX unless your spec is busted because no matter how great people may think to be , X number of opponents should be able to down you in no time. Now the situation change when your spec is busted because maybe you can chain evades/blocks/stealth in a short amount of time or you have access to long lasting resilience boons or stealth jumping or else....yeah you can 1vsX there, because your spec is busted

    Also your clips show two so called "TOP tier" individuals stalling each other, going by logic alone we believe that what should happen in every situation where both parties display same range of possibilities , both players are playing two specs designed for stalling side nodes, playing them at the "maximum" capacity

    Good players were able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage to actually down people in a reasonable timeframe and have enough cleave to pressure the rez on the downs. Nowadays, that's not the case anymore.

    It's not like all of those top players who could 1vX dropped off suddenly after the feb patch. People who couldn't keep up with the pace of the game like it more because the current meta takes 0 skill to play in which they're accustomed to.

    Either way, are you seriously attempting to justify two people in a tournament /dancing as healthy gameplay? LOL

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    You can't 1vsX unless your spec is busted because no matter how great people may think to be , X number of opponents should be able to down you in no time. Now the situation change when your spec is busted because maybe you can chain evades/blocks/stealth in a short amount of time or you have access to long lasting resilience boons or stealth jumping or else....yeah you can 1vsX there, because your spec is busted

    Also your clips show two so called "TOP tier" individuals stalling each other, going by logic alone we believe that what should happen in every situation where both parties display same range of possibilities , both players are playing two specs designed for stalling side nodes, playing them at the "maximum" capacity

    Good players were able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage to actually down people in a reasonable timeframe and have enough cleave to pressure the rez on the downs. Nowadays, that's not the case anymore.

    It's not like all of those top players who could 1vX dropped off suddenly after the feb patch. People who couldn't keep up with the pace of the game like it more because the current meta takes 0 skill to play in which they're accustomed to.

    Either way, are you seriously attempting to justify two people in a tournament /dancing as healthy gameplay? LOL

    for all the "meta" being boring bunker type, I agree. but there are 2 sides of the coins.
    before the patch if you had kitten in your team, he would get farmed, legit die in 5-10s and do nothing, pure -1 player.
    now those bad players can use necro/guard/rev, and at least take time to die, or force some resources onto them.
    Games are MUCH more balanced thanks to it. There are always 2 sides of the coin, dont know about NA but on EU games are much closer and thats why it happens IMO.
    What they could do is remove all of the kitten channeled blocks that last forever, cough rev. and make them more akin t thiefs sb3, where you have to react to an attack, instead of holding long lasting, low cooldown immu frames. There is much work to be done, IF they follow up on the patch I can see it being really good but as it stands its worse then before the patch.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 :

    UNOwen definition of skillfloor : count 1 dodge, count 2 dodge, burst !
    viquing definition of skillfloor : count the 2 dodges + during this time prepare burst by stacking might, putting weakness etc. + do it multiple time.

    How many times have I debunked both of these. Lets fix it to be the truth, shall we?

    UNOwen definition of skillfloor: Force the enemy to use his defenses inefficiently by using feints, staggering and switching up damage rotation, using windows in his attacks to crack back with a stun without using any followup and the like, while using your defenses effectively and watching out for his feints and so on while also watching for boons to steal or corrupt and optimal usage of certain defensive boons all while setting up your high damage skills.
    viquings definition of skillfloor: Just spam every attack off cooldown. Dont bother timing or staggering anything, you cant afford to lower your maximum DPS. Forget about feints, setups or even boon corrupts, none of it matters. Just wait for someone to +1 you.

    Lol this amount of dishonnesty and carricature.

    I was going to ask you if you just dont know what those words mean (because youre using them incorrectly), but youve proven yourself to be dishonest, so thats probably it.

    If you want to spam, you can do it in the two version. It the first case, it will be efficient as if the opponent did 1 fail, it will pressure him while in the second case, you will never kill him, even with a +1 if you really rollface.

    Haha, no. In the first, it instantly loses you the fight. Its unbelievably inefficient, since if the opponent just uses one defensive cooldown, you have no damage left and they can easily kill you. In the second case, its actually the most efficient way. Feints, staggering, switching up your rotation, all of those lose DPS. With how low damage is right now, you just plain cant afford to do that. So you indeed spam everything off cooldown, which makes +1s faster to succeed to.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    Play mesmer, like really, even prepacth, you will see that 6000 damage is HIGH considering the higher we can do is on a full glasscanon with modifier shatter 4k/clones. While some other class can do it on multiple skills with less setup.

    You mean the same Mesmer whose power burst did something like 13000-17000 in less than a split second? Which it has been doing since the specialisation days? Compared to that 6k is considered high? What a joke.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Did you really know that we never fight with the same tools ?

    Yes, thats what differentiated the old meta from the current one. Back then everyone had different tools and different ways of fighting and winning fights. Now its all the same tools. Knockbacks, and nothing else matters.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    Did you ever win a 1v1 versus any top thief with a power mesmer since launch ?

    Yes? At times it wasnt even exactly hard. But even if that werent the case, you do know counters exist, right?

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    The day mesmer scepter did the same damage as necro axe for the same type channeled skill, there were plethora of "mesmer op" whining on forum until it was nerfed.
    I will not go into a mesmer post but it hurt reading 6000 damage is low, it really hurt...

    Only because you are so unaware of what your own class does you didnt realise 6k was peanuts to it.

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Then we can look at other class way do deal this damage.

    Already did it for ya. Thief, same concept, just far less damage.

    Right now even the most unkillable builds I met : condi ranger and rev are slow which is an exploitable weakness.

    Ok, so lets dissect this, shall we? First of all, "Condi Ranger". Condi Ranger is not played much. Because it lacks the one tool every sidenoder needs to have, a knockback. The actually played version is power Zerk ranger. Its just as unkillable as all other sidenoders. Its not slow at all, its got good mobility. For that matter, I dont know why you think a perma-swiftness class is slow.

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    Thief had vigor uptime, multiple evade on skills, condi clear and breakstunt. They had single target on demand CC with pistol and AOE with shortbow.

    Guess you didnt know what thief was about either. First of all, thiefs condi clears are atrocious. It has 2 3 condi clears, but both are also really valuable cooldowns for other purposes, one being a stunbreak (also you think stunbreaks are something unique rather than something every class has?). Second, thiefs vigor uptime was quickly ripped or corrupted, with no way of getting it back. And you think daze is a good CC? Its not, compared to stuns, knockdowns, knockbacks and launches. And Headshot isnt even a proper Daze. Still, thief had far lower defenses than most classes, low health, minimal self-healing, and generally just wasnt capable of staying in a fight.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Guy I don't know if you onle play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when even core vigor application on mes was nerfed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer CC options and see that all rupt build are based on mantra of distraction or diversion who are .... DAZE.

    Interrupt builds use interrupts. Shocker. But I see youre leaving out the knockback, the 3 second stun (Thief doesnt have anything even remotely as good as that), or the fact that those dazes unlike headshot are full second dazes. Oh and Moa, too. Yeah, Mesmers CC is considerably better.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Because this meta didn't exists apart on few forum whine who extrapolate ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    Will make it clear for you : a zerk signet mesmer will tank more than a paladin power mesmer.

    And I will make it clearer for you: A paladin signet mesmer will tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer. Besides, Holo, Ranger, etc., theyre nothing like signet mesmer.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Yeah except it wasnt, Mesmer was kitting slow setup from condi auto clone and it's not because one player manage to win for the meme with a particular setup that it was (if there wasn't 2 thieves as bodygard it would never work.). Mean in this case he could be playing anything else (or a 3rd thief for example), the result would be the same.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    You mean the leaderboards with a ton of Mirages in the top 100? With tons of Mesmer in every AT and MAT? Yeaaaaaah. Maybe you should learn a bit more before you talk.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

    Yeah one monochoice per class, because one build regroup most tools in one. That's was the problem.

    That was the problem in your imaginary version of the game that never existed. In reality, every class had multiple choices, even ones drastically different in their goal. Instead, right now is when you have 1 choice per class, other than for Rev and Necro. If youre Engineer, youre explosive holo. If youre ranger, youre Zerk Ranger. If youre guardian, youre firebrand. If youre Ele, youre Tempest. Fun.

    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

    It doesnt. And the second part is as usual the complete opposite of the truth. You have to not be skilled at all on your rotation as opposed to before. You rollface, and thats the optimal damage rotation. Whereas pre-patch, if you facerolled, and I hate that I have to repeat this, YOU INSTANTLY LOST. Let me repeat that so it can finally get through to you. If you facerolled pre-patch, YOU INSTANTLY LOST.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    You can't 1vsX unless your spec is busted because no matter how great people may think to be , X number of opponents should be able to down you in no time. Now the situation change when your spec is busted because maybe you can chain evades/blocks/stealth in a short amount of time or you have access to long lasting resilience boons or stealth jumping or else....yeah you can 1vsX there, because your spec is busted

    Also your clips show two so called "TOP tier" individuals stalling each other, going by logic alone we believe that what should happen in every situation where both parties display same range of possibilities , both players are playing two specs designed for stalling side nodes, playing them at the "maximum" capacity

    Good players were able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage to actually down people in a reasonable timeframe and have enough cleave to pressure the rez on the downs. Nowadays, that's not the case anymore.

    It's not like all of those top players who could 1vX dropped off suddenly after the feb patch. People who couldn't keep up with the pace of the game like it more because the current meta takes 0 skill to play in which they're accustomed to.

    Either way, are you seriously attempting to justify two people in a tournament /dancing as healthy gameplay? LOL

    for all the "meta" being boring bunker type, I agree. but there are 2 sides of the coins.
    before the patch if you had kitten in your team, he would get farmed, legit die in 5-10s and do nothing, pure -1 player.
    now those bad players can use necro/guard/rev, and at least take time to die, or force some resources onto them.

    I mean what youre basically saying is that because matchmaking sucks, lowering the skillfloor into non-existence is good because it makes matchmaking less awful. Thats ... not a good argument. The solution is to fix matchmaking, not dumb down the game.

    Games are MUCH more balanced thanks to it. There are always 2 sides of the coin, dont know about NA but on EU games are much closer and thats why it happens IMO.

    I would also disagree with this, because now rotations are the only thing that matters, and you always have that one guy who always goes far and just sits there without contributing anything.

    What they could do is remove all of the kitten channeled blocks that last forever, cough rev. and make them more akin t thiefs sb3, where you have to react to an attack, instead of holding long lasting, low cooldown immu frames. There is much work to be done, IF they follow up on the patch I can see it being really good but as it stands its worse then before the patch.

    That wouldnt make the game any less skill-less, it just means you spam even more. The first thing to do is massively increase damage again. Were 20-30% below the benchmark.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    You can't 1vsX unless your spec is busted because no matter how great people may think to be , X number of opponents should be able to down you in no time. Now the situation change when your spec is busted because maybe you can chain evades/blocks/stealth in a short amount of time or you have access to long lasting resilience boons or stealth jumping or else....yeah you can 1vsX there, because your spec is busted

    Also your clips show two so called "TOP tier" individuals stalling each other, going by logic alone we believe that what should happen in every situation where both parties display same range of possibilities , both players are playing two specs designed for stalling side nodes, playing them at the "maximum" capacity

    Good players were able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage to actually down people in a reasonable timeframe and have enough cleave to pressure the rez on the downs. Nowadays, that's not the case anymore.

    It's not like all of those top players who could 1vX dropped off suddenly after the feb patch. People who couldn't keep up with the pace of the game like it more because the current meta takes 0 skill to play in which they're accustomed to.

    Either way, are you seriously attempting to justify two people in a tournament /dancing as healthy gameplay? LOL

    And all those good players "happen" to play : ranger -holosmith -spellbreaker-condi mirage and similar....I see the pattern here : " able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage" and the sustain to last vsX fights , you forgot to mention this in your statement.

    We're not talking about a full zerker FA ele 1vsX players in Pvp at which point we could say.."oh wow"...I would have never said the same watching a boonbeast/core ranger or holosmith or condi mirage or spellbreaker etc etc doing the same and exactly because of the build they were playing.

    The same people who crusaded for the removal of celestial d/d ele saying that no build should be able to fight multiple opponents...those same people are now saying that specs able to fight multiple opponents are balanced...amazing.

    In reality what a balanced game looks like is close to what we have now :

    -sustain sidenoder VS sustain sidenoder = stalling unless a +1 occurs, not enough dmg to match the sustain
    -dmg roamer used to +1
    -tank with no dmg

    Before we had sustain sidenoder with the dmg of a burst roamer...yeah that's broken AF in my book but "TOP" players consider that a balanced state of the game..because their class can do that. I am not justifying anything ...I am stating facts.

    We had @Phantaram or @Wakkey on ele , two TOP players who won tournaments and on ele they were able to 1vsX.....then everybody and his mom complained on the forum for months saying that ele was OP for doing that

    Those same people now used to do the same thing on holosmith or ranger or spellbreaker..and suddenly that's TOP gameplay from skilled individual ....give me a break already for real!

    Hypocritical community

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    You can't 1vsX unless your spec is busted because no matter how great people may think to be , X number of opponents should be able to down you in no time. Now the situation change when your spec is busted because maybe you can chain evades/blocks/stealth in a short amount of time or you have access to long lasting resilience boons or stealth jumping or else....yeah you can 1vsX there, because your spec is busted

    Also your clips show two so called "TOP tier" individuals stalling each other, going by logic alone we believe that what should happen in every situation where both parties display same range of possibilities , both players are playing two specs designed for stalling side nodes, playing them at the "maximum" capacity

    Good players were able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage to actually down people in a reasonable timeframe and have enough cleave to pressure the rez on the downs. Nowadays, that's not the case anymore.

    It's not like all of those top players who could 1vX dropped off suddenly after the feb patch. People who couldn't keep up with the pace of the game like it more because the current meta takes 0 skill to play in which they're accustomed to.

    Either way, are you seriously attempting to justify two people in a tournament /dancing as healthy gameplay? LOL

    And all those good players "happen" to play : ranger -holosmith -spellbreaker-condi mirage and similar....I see the pattern here : " able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage" and the sustain to last vsX fights , you forgot to mention this in your statement.

    Good players play good builds. Is that supposed to be an argument? Though I find it funny you leave out Weaver, which towards the end of the last meta, was the best sidenoder. I wonder why. But, no, thats not the pattern. Because they werent able to do that. The pattern was "high sustained damage and sustain to be able to match other sidenoders". Same as a Weaver.

    We're not talking about a full zerker FA ele 1vsX players in Pvp at which point we could say.."oh wow"...I would have never said the same watching a boonbeast/core ranger or holosmith or condi mirage or spellbreaker etc etc doing the same and exactly because of the build they were playing.

    Because you seem to be real biased towards ele. But ironically, Id argue its less impressive on Zerker FA ele, because there we could say that the enemy just screwed up and got burst without really even realising whats happening. You cant really burst as a Spellbreaker. Winning that 1v2 is pretty clean.

    The same people who crusaded for the removal of celestial d/d ele saying that no build should be able to fight multiple opponents...those same people are now saying that specs able to fight multiple opponents are balanced...amazing.

    Except, unlike Cele Ele, those builds couldnt fight multiple opponents. They died when they fought outnumbered, just like now. But they could fight each other.

    In reality what a balanced game looks like is close to what we have now :

    Haha, no. A balanced game looks much closer to pre-patch. What we have right now is as far as you can get from a balanced game.

    -sustain sidenoder VS sustain sidenoder = stalling unless a +1 occurs, not enough dmg to match the sustainb

    Yeah except those "sustain sidenoders" are squishy damage builds. With not much sustain. Turns out that doesnt help when damage is too low. But even if that wasnt the case, there should never be a situation where damage builds just end up fully stalling without a +1. Thats unbalanced, unfun, and just terribly designed.

    -dmg roamer used to +1

    This one always exists, though the "damage" part is not important. Roamers can do low damage, like 4k backstab thieves right now, just +1ing is enough.

    -tank with no dmg

    Doesnt exist. Why would you go tank when you still dont die if you go full zerker?

    Before we had sustain sidenoder with the dmg of a burst roamer...yeah that's broken AF in my book but "TOP" players consider that a balanced state of the game..because their class can do that. I am not justifying anything ...I am stating facts.

    Yeah, like Boonbeast. Wait no, it didnt burst even half as hard as a Mirage. Uh, Prot Holo? Nope, even outclassed by kinetic holo. Weaver? Well, the burning can burst hard, but not really. Spellbreaker? Hahahaha, no. Ok, uh, what else was there even. Condi Rev? Nooope. Yeah, turns out that wasnt the case. And its funny that you put top in quotation marks, just because you dont like the fact that theyre the best players.

    We had @Phantaram or @Wakkey on ele , two TOP players who won tournaments and on ele they were able to 1vsX.....then everybody and his mom complained on the forum for months saying that ele was OP for doing that

    Are you ... are you actually trying to defend the Cele Ele meta? Where teams had up to 4 Cele Eles on the same team? I know youre biased, but kitten.

    Those same people now used to do the same thing on holosmith or ranger or spellbreaker..and suddenly that's TOP gameplay from skilled individual ....give me a break already for real!

    Except, they didnt. If they were able to do that, then yes, that wouldve been top gameplay, because those builds are not really capable of doing it. Well, except prot holo, he could survive it, but he wouldnt kill anyone either.

    Hypocritical community

    No, youre just blinded by your Ele bias. Guess Ranger didnt work out for ya?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2020
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    You can't 1vsX unless your spec is busted because no matter how great people may think to be , X number of opponents should be able to down you in no time. Now the situation change when your spec is busted because maybe you can chain evades/blocks/stealth in a short amount of time or you have access to long lasting resilience boons or stealth jumping or else....yeah you can 1vsX there, because your spec is busted

    Also your clips show two so called "TOP tier" individuals stalling each other, going by logic alone we believe that what should happen in every situation where both parties display same range of possibilities , both players are playing two specs designed for stalling side nodes, playing them at the "maximum" capacity

    Good players were able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage to actually down people in a reasonable timeframe and have enough cleave to pressure the rez on the downs. Nowadays, that's not the case anymore.

    It's not like all of those top players who could 1vX dropped off suddenly after the feb patch. People who couldn't keep up with the pace of the game like it more because the current meta takes 0 skill to play in which they're accustomed to.

    Either way, are you seriously attempting to justify two people in a tournament /dancing as healthy gameplay? LOL

    And all those good players "happen" to play : ranger -holosmith -spellbreaker-condi mirage and similar....I see the pattern here : " able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage" and the sustain to last vsX fights , you forgot to mention this in your statement.

    We're not talking about a full zerker FA ele 1vsX players in Pvp at which point we could say.."oh wow"...I would have never said the same watching a boonbeast/core ranger or holosmith or condi mirage or spellbreaker etc etc doing the same and exactly because of the build they were playing.

    The same people who crusaded for the removal of celestial d/d ele saying that no build should be able to fight multiple opponents...those same people are now saying that specs able to fight multiple opponents are balanced...amazing.

    In reality what a balanced game looks like is close to what we have now :

    -sustain sidenoder VS sustain sidenoder = stalling unless a +1 occurs, not enough dmg to match the sustain
    -dmg roamer used to +1
    -tank with no dmg

    Before we had sustain sidenoder with the dmg of a burst roamer...yeah that's broken AF in my book but "TOP" players consider that a balanced state of the game..because their class can do that. I am not justifying anything ...I am stating facts.

    We had @Phantaram or @Wakkey on ele , two TOP players who won tournaments and on ele they were able to 1vsX.....then everybody and his mom complained on the forum for months saying that ele was OP for doing that

    Those same people now used to do the same thing on holosmith or ranger or spellbreaker..and suddenly that's TOP gameplay from skilled individual ....give me a break already for real!

    Hypocritical community

    There were good players on every class. Grimjack could 1vX on fire weaver and LR weaver as well so I'm not sure why you didn't include ele in that list of classes. /cough bias

    https://clips.twitch.tv/ObeseAntsyPepperVoteYea

    Notice how things actually die before the feb patch and the matches not going to timer consistently.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    You can't 1vsX unless your spec is busted because no matter how great people may think to be , X number of opponents should be able to down you in no time. Now the situation change when your spec is busted because maybe you can chain evades/blocks/stealth in a short amount of time or you have access to long lasting resilience boons or stealth jumping or else....yeah you can 1vsX there, because your spec is busted

    Also your clips show two so called "TOP tier" individuals stalling each other, going by logic alone we believe that what should happen in every situation where both parties display same range of possibilities , both players are playing two specs designed for stalling side nodes, playing them at the "maximum" capacity

    Good players were able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage to actually down people in a reasonable timeframe and have enough cleave to pressure the rez on the downs. Nowadays, that's not the case anymore.

    It's not like all of those top players who could 1vX dropped off suddenly after the feb patch. People who couldn't keep up with the pace of the game like it more because the current meta takes 0 skill to play in which they're accustomed to.

    Either way, are you seriously attempting to justify two people in a tournament /dancing as healthy gameplay? LOL

    And all those good players "happen" to play : ranger -holosmith -spellbreaker-condi mirage and similar....I see the pattern here : " able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage" and the sustain to last vsX fights , you forgot to mention this in your statement.

    We're not talking about a full zerker FA ele 1vsX players in Pvp at which point we could say.."oh wow"...I would have never said the same watching a boonbeast/core ranger or holosmith or condi mirage or spellbreaker etc etc doing the same and exactly because of the build they were playing.

    The same people who crusaded for the removal of celestial d/d ele saying that no build should be able to fight multiple opponents...those same people are now saying that specs able to fight multiple opponents are balanced...amazing.

    In reality what a balanced game looks like is close to what we have now :

    -sustain sidenoder VS sustain sidenoder = stalling unless a +1 occurs, not enough dmg to match the sustain
    -dmg roamer used to +1
    -tank with no dmg

    Before we had sustain sidenoder with the dmg of a burst roamer...yeah that's broken AF in my book but "TOP" players consider that a balanced state of the game..because their class can do that. I am not justifying anything ...I am stating facts.

    We had @Phantaram or @Wakkey on ele , two TOP players who won tournaments and on ele they were able to 1vsX.....then everybody and his mom complained on the forum for months saying that ele was OP for doing that

    Those same people now used to do the same thing on holosmith or ranger or spellbreaker..and suddenly that's TOP gameplay from skilled individual ....give me a break already for real!

    Hypocritical community

    There were good players on every class. Grimjack could 1vX on fire weaver and LR weaver as well so I'm not sure why you didn't include ele in that list of classes. /cough bias

    https://clips.twitch.tv/ObeseAntsyPepperVoteYea

    Notice how things actually die before the feb patch and the matches not going to timer consistently.

    and similar ....said it clearly ...
    Bias? I play ranger too, been doing so for years now along with guardian and warrior...but whatever think what you like

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    ^ when the game was actually fun

    Ah yes, stab for how long was it? Had to wait like 20s so ranger would be finally "vulnerable" to cc? Evasion on GS AA was nice as well with that stow, really love these exploits <3 Looked like a fight against new player that jumped on Powercreep class, I say he was doing fine being carried by broken spec. If you call that "fun" then lmao. People really have very low standards for fun these days I guess.
    Btw. I usually go and play single player games and use cheat engine to have this kind of "fun"(ez access to everything at any given time, luv it).

    Oh wow would you look at that? Even when the game was "powercreeped" I was able to fit in two entire fights in under 3 minutes. In the current meta, I'm lucky if I have ONE fight that ends over the course of 15 minutes.

    Maybe you should count how many times I used the GS auto evade trick in both fights (the answer is, "Once!") Using it at any other point asides from the one time I did would have been a misplay.

    Judging by the fact that you seem to believe a bunker meta is fun, and having fights where top tier players just /dance in tournaments because there is absolutely no risk in either of them dying, your standard for fun must be nonexistent. ^^

    You can't 1vsX unless your spec is busted because no matter how great people may think to be , X number of opponents should be able to down you in no time. Now the situation change when your spec is busted because maybe you can chain evades/blocks/stealth in a short amount of time or you have access to long lasting resilience boons or stealth jumping or else....yeah you can 1vsX there, because your spec is busted

    Also your clips show two so called "TOP tier" individuals stalling each other, going by logic alone we believe that what should happen in every situation where both parties display same range of possibilities , both players are playing two specs designed for stalling side nodes, playing them at the "maximum" capacity

    Good players were able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage to actually down people in a reasonable timeframe and have enough cleave to pressure the rez on the downs. Nowadays, that's not the case anymore.

    It's not like all of those top players who could 1vX dropped off suddenly after the feb patch. People who couldn't keep up with the pace of the game like it more because the current meta takes 0 skill to play in which they're accustomed to.

    Either way, are you seriously attempting to justify two people in a tournament /dancing as healthy gameplay? LOL

    And all those good players "happen" to play : ranger -holosmith -spellbreaker-condi mirage and similar....I see the pattern here : " able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage" and the sustain to last vsX fights , you forgot to mention this in your statement.

    We're not talking about a full zerker FA ele 1vsX players in Pvp at which point we could say.."oh wow"...I would have never said the same watching a boonbeast/core ranger or holosmith or condi mirage or spellbreaker etc etc doing the same and exactly because of the build they were playing.

    The same people who crusaded for the removal of celestial d/d ele saying that no build should be able to fight multiple opponents...those same people are now saying that specs able to fight multiple opponents are balanced...amazing.

    In reality what a balanced game looks like is close to what we have now :

    -sustain sidenoder VS sustain sidenoder = stalling unless a +1 occurs, not enough dmg to match the sustain
    -dmg roamer used to +1
    -tank with no dmg

    Before we had sustain sidenoder with the dmg of a burst roamer...yeah that's broken AF in my book but "TOP" players consider that a balanced state of the game..because their class can do that. I am not justifying anything ...I am stating facts.

    We had @Phantaram or @Wakkey on ele , two TOP players who won tournaments and on ele they were able to 1vsX.....then everybody and his mom complained on the forum for months saying that ele was OP for doing that

    Those same people now used to do the same thing on holosmith or ranger or spellbreaker..and suddenly that's TOP gameplay from skilled individual ....give me a break already for real!

    Hypocritical community

    There were good players on every class. Grimjack could 1vX on fire weaver and LR weaver as well so I'm not sure why you didn't include ele in that list of classes. /cough bias

    https://clips.twitch.tv/ObeseAntsyPepperVoteYea

    Notice how things actually die before the feb patch and the matches not going to timer consistently.

    and similar ....said it clearly ...
    Bias? I play ranger too, been doing so for years now along with guardian and warrior...but whatever think what you like

    Well, I really don't care too much man. My opinion is that the game was more fun before the feb patch. Feel free to disagree! I'm playing other stuff anyways.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Good players were able to win 1vX because their builds had enough damage to actually down people in a reasonable timeframe and have enough cleave to pressure the rez on the downs. Nowadays, that's not the case anymore.

    Yeah and good player play rev because... Ho wait :D

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2020
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    If you want to spam, you can do it in the two version. It the first case, it will be efficient as if the opponent did 1 fail, it will pressure him while in the second case, you will never kill him, even with a +1 if you really rollface.

    Haha, no. In the first, it instantly loses you the fight. Its unbelievably inefficient, since if the opponent just uses one defensive cooldown, you have no damage left and they can easily kill you. In the second case, its actually the most efficient way. Feints, staggering, switching up your rotation, all of those lose DPS. With how low damage is right now, you just plain cant afford to do that. So you indeed spam everything off cooldown, which makes +1s faster to succeed to.

    Haha, no. in the first case, if you had more damaging skill that he has temporisation, he was forced to perma kite LoS while you do your rollface. Mean it was rarely a mirror class fight. If you spem evrerything off cooldown right now even with a +1 you will not kill the guy. Landing 2 keyskills after burning opponent temporisation isn't rotation you know.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    It can. As I explained, it's childish to understand that you can rollface in the two situation and that the first will be more rewarding because of the pressure who will come on random fails, particulary playing buld with every tools.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.
    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    If you want to have all of this you will be inneficient, maybe it's the problem in your case.

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    Lol, mesmer was a standar pick, yeah sure, with 2 mes on top 100, what a standard compared to some class ratio. What not to read.

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Plus burn blink (the only safe back option in this build to come near the opponent), it's not launch from "anywhere".
    Plus F3 stunt to prevent opponent from evade, moving and stack vuln.
    So 5 skills with no back options, you basically use all your skills for this burst. Mean you can't do anything for the next 12 to 30 seconds, can't survive after this without team help, can't condiclear (mean if you took 1 weakness from random autoproc or aoe you can't burst.). I didn't even talk about reveal.
    Now compare it to every other meta build who hadn't thoses weakness while putting this amount of damage with multiple separate skills. And as written : multiple hudge damage skill is better a less sensible to random blocs/evade/weakness/cc autoprocs.
    Every player who ever use this build should know this.
    Mean we can more more in detail comparing meta build with all tools, with meme burst build who drop everything for damage but I don't think it will be in you favor.

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    ? Rotating always was more important than individual duelling, you should know this if you watch top stream.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Ha yeah the legendary 7/7 traitline with 10 utility slot mesmer. No sorry I don't mean this build.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.
    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Guy I don't know if you onle play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when even core vigor application on mes was nerfed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer CC options and see that all rupt build are based on mantra of distraction or diversion who are .... DAZE.

    Interrupt builds use interrupts. Shocker. But I see youre leaving out the knockback, the 3 second stun (Thief doesnt have anything even remotely as good as that), or the fact that those dazes unlike headshot are full second dazes. Oh and Moa, too. Yeah, Mesmers CC is considerably better.

    Moa ? what is this :D
    Btw his rupt is enough to rupt keyskill as shown in mAt/Mota and to pressure rez/blooded.
    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Exchange evade for stealth wow. kitten protection are you talking about, the mighty 7/7 traitline ? The 'potential aegis' XD.
    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF survivability with MESMER because it's way better on mesmer. Ho and don't miss the perma swiftness too hm.
    You should be on the balance dev team.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.
    Mean such an argument that I can use it too, pretty fun to do the answer I think I will get used to it.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    :D putting apart the fact that one is on a 2 sec CD while the other burn your evade yeah. Than one have high switness not the other and one has better superspeed uptime yeah in a parallel world it can work. Ho and you miss jump shot.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    you dig your grave guy.
    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Because this meta didn't exists apart on few forum whine who extrapolate ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    Will make it clear for you : a zerk signet mesmer will tank more than a paladin power mesmer.

    And I will make it clearer for you: A paladin signet mesmer will tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer. Besides, Holo, Ranger, etc., theyre nothing like signet mesmer.

    Considering it's all about active defense, no a paladin signet mesmer will not tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer at all.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Yeah except it wasnt, Mesmer was kitting slow setup from condi auto clone and it's not because one player manage to win for the meme with a particular setup that it was (if there wasn't 2 thieves as bodygard it would never work.). Mean in this case he could be playing anything else (or a 3rd thief for example), the result would be the same.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
    This is fo fun participing in this forum, this amount of laught in the moorning is really good for my health. Thank you very much.

    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    You mean the leaderboards with a ton of Mirages in the top 100? With tons of Mesmer in every AT and MAT? Yeaaaaaah. Maybe you should learn a bit more before you talk.

    Ha the famous parallel world LB. It seem really a fun world, you should share the portal access to it.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

    Yeah one monochoice per class, because one build regroup most tools in one. That's was the problem.

    That was the problem in your imaginary version of the game that never existed. In reality, every class had multiple choices, even ones drastically different in their goal. Instead, right now is when you have 1 choice per class, other than for Rev and Necro. If youre Engineer, youre explosive holo. If youre ranger, youre Zerk Ranger. If youre guardian, youre firebrand. If youre Ele, youre Tempest. Fun.

    Don't act like if you played all class please, mesmer had realisticly one choice and one meme choice. Most other class were inexistant (mean seeing a ele prepatch was..) or always on the same build.

    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

    It doesnt. And the second part is as usual the complete opposite of the truth. You have to not be skilled at all on your rotation as opposed to before. You rollface, and thats the optimal damage rotation. Whereas pre-patch, if you facerolled, and I hate that I have to repeat this, YOU INSTANTLY LOST. Let me repeat that so it can finally get through to you. If you facerolled pre-patch, YOU INSTANTLY LOST.

    It does.
    And no you don't instantly lost, you just spammed it until it work.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    If you want to spam, you can do it in the two version. It the first case, it will be efficient as if the opponent did 1 fail, it will pressure him while in the second case, you will never kill him, even with a +1 if you really rollface.

    Haha, no. In the first, it instantly loses you the fight. Its unbelievably inefficient, since if the opponent just uses one defensive cooldown, you have no damage left and they can easily kill you. In the second case, its actually the most efficient way. Feints, staggering, switching up your rotation, all of those lose DPS. With how low damage is right now, you just plain cant afford to do that. So you indeed spam everything off cooldown, which makes +1s faster to succeed to.

    Haha, no. in the first case, if you had more damaging skill that he has temporisation, he was forced to perma kite LoS while you do your rollface. Mean it was rarely a mirror class fight. If you spem evrerything off cooldown right now even with a +1 you will not kill the guy. Landing 2 keyskills after burning opponent temporisation isn't rotation you know.

    You should learn to give up when youve lost. It would save you the embarassment. But no, since a single defensive skill can cover multiple offensive skills, there was no situation in which spamming didnt instantly lose you the fight and got you killed. And no, if you spam everything off cooldown right now, youre playing optimally, and not only are you guaranteed to kill someone with a +1, you do it faster than if you didnt spam things off cooldown. Spamming right now is 10000 times more efficient than spamming pre-patch.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    You seem to not see a lot of common things when they dismantle your argument. Im starting to think you just live in a fantasy world and refuse to leave it.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    It can. As I explained, it's childish to understand that you can rollface in the two situation and that the first will be more rewarding because of the pressure who will come on random fails, particulary playing buld with every tools.

    If by childish you meant "as stupid as a childs statements", yes. Because its stupid, and wrong. In the first scenario, facerolling instantly loses you the fight, because you guarantee that you have no pressure whatsoever, and they can just freely kill you. In the second scenario, facerolling is the optimal way of playing, and is guaranteed to maximise your chances of winning.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.

    I didnt. And it is absolutely irrelevant.

    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Yes, just like you only had to evade the backstab against thief. Only, tiny issue. Both came out of stealth. Both hit their entire damage instantly. You couldnt dodge it. So no, its not worse, its better.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    If you want to have all of this you will be inneficient, maybe it's the problem in your case.

    No, actually, if you want all of this youre just playing Ranger, or Holo, or Revenant. As I said, damage is so low that you have damage and sustain by default, and the rest are just so easily obtained that its not even much of a challenge.

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    Lol, mesmer was a standar pick, yeah sure, with 2 mes on top 100, what a standard compared to some class ratio. What not to read.

    Im guessing then its just a coencidence that in MATs, most teams had a Mirage on them, huh? Nope, sadly despite your refusal to leave your fantasy world, Mesmer was a standard pick. Its now when its basically unplayable that you dont see it.

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Plus burn blink (the only safe back option in this build to come near the opponent), it's not launch from "anywhere".

    You dont need blink. Youre using stealth.

    Plus F3 stunt to prevent opponent from evade, moving and stack vuln.

    You dont need a stun, youre using stealth.

    So 5 skills with no back options, you basically use all your skills for this burst. Mean you can't do anything for the next 12 to 30 seconds, can't survive after this without team help, can't condiclear (mean if you took 1 weakness from random autoproc or aoe you can't burst.). I didn't even talk about reveal.

    3 skills, not 5. You still have blink, you still have invuln, you still have multiple active evades. And of course you can still do things afterwards, you havent even used all of greatswords skills yet, or any of your sword skills.

    Now compare it to every other meta build who hadn't thoses weakness while putting this amount of damage with multiple separate skills. And as written : multiple hudge damage skill is better a less sensible to random blocs/evade/weakness/cc autoprocs.

    There arent really any classes that can push this amount of damage anywhere near as fast and unavoidable.

    Every player who ever use this build should know this.
    Mean we can more more in detail comparing meta build with all tools, with meme burst build who drop everything for damage but I don't think it will be in you favor.

    You dont think a lot of true things. Just your fantasy world most of the time.

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    ? Rotating always was more important than individual duelling, you should know this if you watch top stream.

    It was just as important, actually. But I guess that is what you hated. The fact that dueling mattered.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Ha yeah the legendary 7/7 traitline with 10 utility slot mesmer. No sorry I don't mean this build.

    Ah, a lie to misdirect. Sorry, but no. The PU Mesmer standard build used all of those. Distortion is on every Mesmers toolbar, Auspicious Anguish is what you pick in Chaos Master traitslot, and Arcane Thievery was always an option. Man you really dont know when to accept that youve lost.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.

    In the real world? Have you actually looked at D/P Thief before? Ill give you a spoiler: No evasive skills anywhere to be found outside of the elite. Which is on a 90 seconds cooldown. Blurred Frenzy alone beats all of it. Man you really should know when to quit.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Would you now? Im not sure you would be happy on gaining vigor on cry of frustration for 10 seconds in exchange for losing all other vigor sources.

    Guy I don't know if you onle play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when even core vigor application on mes was nerfed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer CC options and see that all rupt build are based on mantra of distraction or diversion who are .... DAZE.

    Interrupt builds use interrupts. Shocker. But I see youre leaving out the knockback, the 3 second stun (Thief doesnt have anything even remotely as good as that), or the fact that those dazes unlike headshot are full second dazes. Oh and Moa, too. Yeah, Mesmers CC is considerably better.

    Moa ? what is this :D
    Btw his rupt is enough to rupt keyskill as shown in mAt/Mota and to pressure rez/blooded.

    Missing the point.

    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Missing the point again. Your argument was "Mesmers CC is worse". Now youre saying "ok Mesmers CC is way better, but you cant use it to interrupt!!!!1!1!". I even forgot about magic bullet, so thanks for reminding me Mesmers CC is even further above thieves CC.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Exchange evade for stealth wow. kitten protection are you talking about, the mighty 7/7 traitline ? The 'potential aegis' XD.

    PU Mesmer. I thought you knew your own class at least to not talk complete nonsense. Evidently, I overestimated you.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF survivability with MESMER because it's way better on mesmer. Ho and don't miss the perma swiftness too hm.

    Ok, I guess you just dont know thief or Mesmer. Let me explain you this: Thief can run away better. So if he wants to avoid dying, he can do that, but then he still loses the fight by leaving. Mesmer however survives in a fight far better. Its not even a comparision. More and better active defenses, better baseline health.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.
    Mean such an argument that I can use it too, pretty fun to do the answer I think I will get used to it.

    Im afraid you cant. I have already pointed out how many things you said simply contradict reality. You have yet to do the same.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    :D putting apart the fact that one is on a 2 sec CD while the other burn your evade yeah. Than one have high switness not the other and one has better superspeed uptime yeah in a parallel world it can work. Ho and you miss jump shot.

    I guess youre ignoring the heat aspect too. I guess its too inconvenient. But as for swiftness, were talking about running away here, arent we? Being able to cover 3 times the distance in a split-second is pretty hard for the other to catch up.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    you dig your grave guy.

    No, not really. You just continue to refuse to face the undeniable facts. You keep repeating that lie even after I have debunked it over and over. You even have yet to explain why, if you could take everything in one build, we still had DPS builds with low survivability, bunker builds with high survivability, and support builds.

    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    Nice lie you wrote there. "Anymore" implies that was the case before which as I have explained is objectively not true. Its also objectively not true because its only now, after the patch, that you can. Im not in any trouble. The game is, because the meta is garbage. And you refuse to accept it. Maybe its because your fantasy world distorted your perception fo the pre-patch world. Or maybe its because you like the super-low skill-level it has right now.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Because this meta didn't exists apart on few forum whine who extrapolate ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    Will make it clear for you : a zerk signet mesmer will tank more than a paladin power mesmer.

    And I will make it clearer for you: A paladin signet mesmer will tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer. Besides, Holo, Ranger, etc., theyre nothing like signet mesmer.

    Considering it's all about active defense, no a paladin signet mesmer will not tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer at all.

    Man I forget how you say such ridiculously wrong things without hesitation. Its almost impressive how little you care about the truth. But no, what youre saying is wrong, as always.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Yeah except it wasnt, Mesmer was kitting slow setup from condi auto clone and it's not because one player manage to win for the meme with a particular setup that it was (if there wasn't 2 thieves as bodygard it would never work.). Mean in this case he could be playing anything else (or a 3rd thief for example), the result would be the same.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    You ... really dont know your own class. kitten. No, it was always a condi burst build, its sustained damage is pretty poor. So wrong, as always. And he didnt carry, but he was instrumental in the victory.

    This is fo fun participing in this forum, this amount of laught in the moorning is really good for my health. Thank you very much.

    If you laugh at the truth, just because you dont want to accept it because it clashes with your made up fantasy world, then Im afraid you should get that checked out. Its not normal.

    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    You mean the leaderboards with a ton of Mirages in the top 100? With tons of Mesmer in every AT and MAT? Yeaaaaaah. Maybe you should learn a bit more before you talk.

    Ha the famous parallel world LB. It seem really a fun world, you should share the portal access to it.

    Its called "reality". Its perhaps not as nice as your fantasy world, but its the only true world. But go ahead, look back at some MATs, and you will find that you were once again wrong, as you always are.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

    Yeah one monochoice per class, because one build regroup most tools in one. That's was the problem.

    That was the problem in your imaginary version of the game that never existed. In reality, every class had multiple choices, even ones drastically different in their goal. Instead, right now is when you have 1 choice per class, other than for Rev and Necro. If youre Engineer, youre explosive holo. If youre ranger, youre Zerk Ranger. If youre guardian, youre firebrand. If youre Ele, youre Tempest. Fun.

    Don't act like if you played all class please, mesmer had realisticly one choice and one meme choice. Most other class were inexistant (mean seeing a ele prepatch was..) or always on the same build.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok I admit, your dishonesty and/or stupidity is breaking me. "You never saw an ele pre-patch". You mean like here, where most teams, including both final teams, use a weaver? That ele you never saw? Man you really just have no qualms about denying reality. Youre right, Mesmer only had 2 choices. Which is far better than the current 0. Unlike right now, where 2 classes arent played at all because theyre unviable, you saw every single class prepatch, because they were all viable. Every single class had multiple builds, unlike right now where only Rev or Necro have more than 1 build. And I am not going to repeat myself once more, so I tell you this: Accept reality, or accept that youre a fool.

    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

    It doesnt. And the second part is as usual the complete opposite of the truth. You have to not be skilled at all on your rotation as opposed to before. You rollface, and thats the optimal damage rotation. Whereas pre-patch, if you facerolled, and I hate that I have to repeat this, YOU INSTANTLY LOST. Let me repeat that so it can finally get through to you. If you facerolled pre-patch, YOU INSTANTLY LOST.

    It does.

    It doesnt. End of story.

    And no you don't instantly lost, you just spammed it until it work.

    Spoken like a true bad player who didnt understand the old meta. No, you instantly lost. If you spammed, it would never work. They use a single defensive skill to cover multiple offensive skills, then youre left with nothing to kill them, and they just kill you for free. But I guess you believing something this wrong, also explains why you thought everyone was always at 15% hp pre-patch. You kept playing horribly, spamming everything and dying as a result, and thought "well they must have had more tools", rather than admitting that you were just playing it all wrong.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    If you want to spam, you can do it in the two version. It the first case, it will be efficient as if the opponent did 1 fail, it will pressure him while in the second case, you will never kill him, even with a +1 if you really rollface.

    Haha, no. In the first, it instantly loses you the fight. Its unbelievably inefficient, since if the opponent just uses one defensive cooldown, you have no damage left and they can easily kill you. In the second case, its actually the most efficient way. Feints, staggering, switching up your rotation, all of those lose DPS. With how low damage is right now, you just plain cant afford to do that. So you indeed spam everything off cooldown, which makes +1s faster to succeed to.

    Haha, no. in the first case, if you had more damaging skill that he has temporisation, he was forced to perma kite LoS while you do your rollface. Mean it was rarely a mirror class fight. If you spem evrerything off cooldown right now even with a +1 you will not kill the guy. Landing 2 keyskills after burning opponent temporisation isn't rotation you know.

    You should learn to give up when youve lost. It would save you the embarassment. But no, since a single defensive skill can cover multiple offensive skills, there was no situation in which spamming didnt instantly lose you the fight and got you killed. And no, if you spam everything off cooldown right now, youre playing optimally, and not only are you guaranteed to kill someone with a +1, you do it faster than if you didnt spam things off cooldown. Spamming right now is 10000 times more efficient than spamming pre-patch.

    Sure with auto who did 2k+ you can cover multiple auto with defensive skill haha. what a joke.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    You seem to not see a lot of common things when they dismantle your argument. Im starting to think you just live in a fantasy world and refuse to leave it.

    Yeah I don't live in a world where rev stow their elite, for sure.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    It can. As I explained, it's childish to understand that you can rollface in the two situation and that the first will be more rewarding because of the pressure who will come on random fails, particulary playing buld with every tools.

    If by childish you meant "as stupid as a childs statements", yes. Because its stupid, and wrong. In the first scenario, facerolling instantly loses you the fight, because you guarantee that you have no pressure whatsoever, and they can just freely kill you. In the second scenario, facerolling is the optimal way of playing, and is guaranteed to maximise your chances of winning.

    Nice you understand that you can spam on the two setup, next you need to figure out that defensive were pretty disparate between classes.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.

    I didnt. And it is absolutely irrelevant.

    Yeah it's sad but is is unless you macroed all your skills.

    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Yes, just like you only had to evade the backstab against thief. Only, tiny issue. Both came out of stealth. Both hit their entire damage instantly. You couldnt dodge it. So no, its not worse, its better.

    Yes, now look at the number of backstab or shadowshot thief can do during your burst CD, oops.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    If you want to have all of this you will be inneficient, maybe it's the problem in your case.

    No, actually, if you want all of this youre just playing Ranger, or Holo, or Revenant. As I said, damage is so low that you have damage and sustain by default, and the rest are just so easily obtained that its not even much of a challenge.

    Damage is low because you don't build for it, that's all. Hopefully there is people in this game who know how to adapt.

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    Lol, mesmer was a standar pick, yeah sure, with 2 mes on top 100, what a standard compared to some class ratio. What not to read.

    Im guessing then its just a coencidence that in MATs, most teams had a Mirage on them, huh? Nope, sadly despite your refusal to leave your fantasy world, Mesmer was a standard pick. Its now when its basically unplayable that you dont see it.

    What did it bring to the table then ?

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Plus burn blink (the only safe back option in this build to come near the opponent), it's not launch from "anywhere".

    You dont need blink. Youre using stealth.

    Plus F3 stunt to prevent opponent from evade, moving and stack vuln.

    You dont need a stun, youre using stealth.

    Yeah that's why I said you never play it. No using blink or f3 mean less burst and the opponent who can evade/cast. That's the concept of lock burst.

    So 5 skills with no back options, you basically use all your skills for this burst. Mean you can't do anything for the next 12 to 30 seconds, can't survive after this without team help, can't condiclear (mean if you took 1 weakness from random autoproc or aoe you can't burst.). I didn't even talk about reveal.

    3 skills, not 5. You still have blink, you still have invuln, you still have multiple active evades. And of course you can still do things afterwards, you havent even used all of greatswords skills yet, or any of your sword skills.

    Wow 1 sec sword evade, 50 sec CD 2 sec invul. such multiple active evade. :D

    Now compare it to every other meta build who hadn't thoses weakness while putting this amount of damage with multiple separate skills. And as written : multiple hudge damage skill is better a less sensible to random blocs/evade/weakness/cc autoprocs.

    There arent really any classes that can push this amount of damage anywhere near as fast and unavoidable.

    Just look at auto please.

    Every player who ever use this build should know this.
    Mean we can more more in detail comparing meta build with all tools, with meme burst build who drop everything for damage but I don't think it will be in you favor.

    You dont think a lot of true things. Just your fantasy world most of the time.

    Yeah I'm my world thieves haven't bad evade uptime :D .

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    ? Rotating always was more important than individual duelling, you should know this if you watch top stream.

    It was just as important, actually. But I guess that is what you hated. The fact that dueling mattered.

    Not really, it was more about having overpowered buttons.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Ha yeah the legendary 7/7 traitline with 10 utility slot mesmer. No sorry I don't mean this build.

    Ah, a lie to misdirect. Sorry, but no. The PU Mesmer standard build used all of those. Distortion is on every Mesmers toolbar, Auspicious Anguish is what you pick in Chaos Master traitslot, and Arcane Thievery was always an option. Man you really dont know when to accept that youve lost.

    So average 2 sc invul on 50 cd because you are unlikely to have 3 clones up to perfect distor who clear 2 condi.
    A condiclear who pop when you are stuck.
    AT on 20 sec CD.

    Versus
    4 conditions cleared on 18 sec CD.
    1 on 35 sec CD.
    3 on 30 sec CD.
    3 on 50 sec CD.

    Mean in 3 min :
    The thief clear 73 condi, mesmer clear 40 condi. But yeah such op.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.

    In the real world? Have you actually looked at D/P Thief before? Ill give you a spoiler: No evasive skills anywhere to be found outside of the elite. Which is on a 90 seconds cooldown. Blurred Frenzy alone beats all of it. Man you really should know when to quit.

    You have two kind of thieves, thoses who relies on stealth, thoses who relie on evade and few mixt of the two.
    Hopefully this build hadn't all evade a thief can have + stealth.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Would you now? Im not sure you would be happy on gaining vigor on cry of frustration for 10 seconds in exchange for losing all other vigor sources.

    Of course, don't forget to give me Endurance refill options and same vigor uptime as seen in sind vid.

    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Missing the point again. Your argument was "Mesmers CC is worse". Now youre saying "ok Mesmers CC is way better, but you cant use it to interrupt!!!!1!1!". I even forgot about magic bullet, so thanks for reminding me Mesmers CC is even further above thieves CC.

    That's why thief hardcounter mesmer.
    Ho nvm it's useless to have more CC if they can be nullify.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Exchange evade for stealth wow. kitten protection are you talking about, the mighty 7/7 traitline ? The 'potential aegis' XD.

    PU Mesmer. I thought you knew your own class at least to not talk complete nonsense. Evidently, I overestimated you.

    Such a reliable sustain haha. On chance on 5. And boon end as stealth end because of the "imba" duration huhu.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF survivability with MESMER because it's way better on mesmer. Ho and don't miss the perma swiftness too hm.

    Ok, I guess you just dont know thief or Mesmer. Let me explain you this: Thief can run away better. So if he wants to avoid dying, he can do that, but then he still loses the fight by leaving. Mesmer however survives in a fight far better. Its not even a comparision. More and better active defenses, better baseline health.

    No, not really, thief run away from mes because they have better value rotating but if they want to duel, plasma alone make them win.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.
    Mean such an argument that I can use it too, pretty fun to do the answer I think I will get used to it.

    Im afraid you cant. I have already pointed out how many things you said simply contradict reality. You have yet to do the same.

    Apart that your reality isn't universal, if you want.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    :D putting apart the fact that one is on a 2 sec CD while the other burn your evade yeah. Than one have high switness not the other and one has better superspeed uptime yeah in a parallel world it can work. Ho and you miss jump shot.

    I guess youre ignoring the heat aspect too. I guess its too inconvenient. But as for swiftness, were talking about running away here, arent we? Being able to cover 3 times the distance in a split-second is pretty hard for the other to catch up.

    I guess youre ignoring cripple/chill options.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    you dig your grave guy.

    No, not really. You just continue to refuse to face the undeniable facts. You keep repeating that lie even after I have debunked it over and over. You even have yet to explain why, if you could take everything in one build, we still had DPS builds with low survivability, bunker builds with high survivability, and support builds.

    You debunker nothing, you are persuaded that the world norms is around few powecreeped things.

    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    Nice lie you wrote there. "Anymore" implies that was the case before which as I have explained is objectively not true. Its also objectively not true because its only now, after the patch, that you can. Im not in any trouble. The game is, because the meta is garbage. And you refuse to accept it. Maybe its because your fantasy world distorted your perception fo the pre-patch world. Or maybe its because you like the super-low skill-level it has right now.

    For sure I didn't like prepatch overpowered noskill meta.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Because this meta didn't exists apart on few forum whine who extrapolate ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    Will make it clear for you : a zerk signet mesmer will tank more than a paladin power mesmer.

    And I will make it clearer for you: A paladin signet mesmer will tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer. Besides, Holo, Ranger, etc., theyre nothing like signet mesmer.

    Considering it's all about active defense, no a paladin signet mesmer will not tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer at all.

    Man I forget how you say such ridiculously wrong things without hesitation. Its almost impressive how little you care about the truth. But no, what youre saying is wrong, as always.

    Nop, particulary when prepatch it was better to build pressure to survive than building on sustains things.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Yeah except it wasnt, Mesmer was kitting slow setup from condi auto clone and it's not because one player manage to win for the meme with a particular setup that it was (if there wasn't 2 thieves as bodygard it would never work.). Mean in this case he could be playing anything else (or a 3rd thief for example), the result would be the same.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    You ... really dont know your own class. kitten. No, it was always a condi burst build, its sustained damage is pretty poor. So wrong, as always. And he didnt carry, but he was instrumental in the victory.

    main damage from clone auto with one telegraphied pistol bleed is a condi burst ok lol. then you come saying 6k is peanut XD.

    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    You mean the leaderboards with a ton of Mirages in the top 100? With tons of Mesmer in every AT and MAT? Yeaaaaaah. Maybe you should learn a bit more before you talk.

    Ha the famous parallel world LB. It seem really a fun world, you should share the portal access to it.

    Its called "reality". Its perhaps not as nice as your fantasy world, but its the only true world. But go ahead, look back at some MATs, and you will find that you were once again wrong, as you always are.

    "Your" reality seems pretty boring.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

    Yeah one monochoice per class, because one build regroup most tools in one. That's was the problem.

    That was the problem in your imaginary version of the game that never existed. In reality, every class had multiple choices, even ones drastically different in their goal. Instead, right now is when you have 1 choice per class, other than for Rev and Necro. If youre Engineer, youre explosive holo. If youre ranger, youre Zerk Ranger. If youre guardian, youre firebrand. If youre Ele, youre Tempest. Fun.

    Don't act like if you played all class please, mesmer had realisticly one choice and one meme choice. Most other class were inexistant (mean seeing a ele prepatch was..) or always on the same build.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok I admit, your dishonesty and/or stupidity is breaking me. "You never saw an ele pre-patch". You mean like here, where most teams, including both final teams, use a weaver? That ele you never saw? Man you really just have no qualms about denying reality. Youre right, Mesmer only had 2 choices. Which is far better than the current 0. Unlike right now, where 2 classes arent played at all because theyre unviable, you saw every single class prepatch, because they were all viable. Every single class had multiple builds, unlike right now where only Rev or Necro have more than 1 build. And I am not going to repeat myself once more, so I tell you this: Accept reality, or accept that youre a fool.

    I don't wrote there isn't I wrote they were rare. Mean there were more mes in LB than ele.

    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

    It doesnt. And the second part is as usual the complete opposite of the truth. You have to not be skilled at all on your rotation as opposed to before. You rollface, and thats the optimal damage rotation. Whereas pre-patch, if you facerolled, and I hate that I have to repeat this, YOU INSTANTLY LOST. Let me repeat that so it can finally get through to you. If you facerolled pre-patch, YOU INSTANTLY LOST.

    It does.

    It doesnt. End of story.

    No it does, you can write it as long as you want it will not change anything.

    And no you don't instantly lost, you just spammed it until it work.

    Spoken like a true bad player who didnt understand the old meta. No, you instantly lost. If you spammed, it would never work. They use a single defensive skill to cover multiple offensive skills, then youre left with nothing to kill them, and they just kill you for free. But I guess you believing something this wrong, also explains why you thought everyone was always at 15% hp pre-patch. You kept playing horribly, spamming everything and dying as a result, and thought "well they must have had more tools", rather than admitting that you were just playing it all wrong.

    Thanks to powercreep you always had something to launch, mean spamfiesta existe since a long time.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    If you want to spam, you can do it in the two version. It the first case, it will be efficient as if the opponent did 1 fail, it will pressure him while in the second case, you will never kill him, even with a +1 if you really rollface.

    Haha, no. In the first, it instantly loses you the fight. Its unbelievably inefficient, since if the opponent just uses one defensive cooldown, you have no damage left and they can easily kill you. In the second case, its actually the most efficient way. Feints, staggering, switching up your rotation, all of those lose DPS. With how low damage is right now, you just plain cant afford to do that. So you indeed spam everything off cooldown, which makes +1s faster to succeed to.

    Haha, no. in the first case, if you had more damaging skill that he has temporisation, he was forced to perma kite LoS while you do your rollface. Mean it was rarely a mirror class fight. If you spem evrerything off cooldown right now even with a +1 you will not kill the guy. Landing 2 keyskills after burning opponent temporisation isn't rotation you know.

    You should learn to give up when youve lost. It would save you the embarassment. But no, since a single defensive skill can cover multiple offensive skills, there was no situation in which spamming didnt instantly lose you the fight and got you killed. And no, if you spam everything off cooldown right now, youre playing optimally, and not only are you guaranteed to kill someone with a +1, you do it faster than if you didnt spam things off cooldown. Spamming right now is 10000 times more efficient than spamming pre-patch.

    Sure with auto who did 2k+ you can cover multiple auto with defensive skill haha. what a joke.

    Why would you care about an auto doing 2k. You do know that, with how slow autos are, that that would take forever to kill even on an enemy with no damage reduction or healing, right? Like, not even the heal skill. No, lets break the strawman. If you spam, that means using all your high damage skills instantly. Stuff like Nade Barrage. And then it all gets covered by one defensive skill, and you lose.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    You seem to not see a lot of common things when they dismantle your argument. Im starting to think you just live in a fantasy world and refuse to leave it.

    Yeah I don't live in a world where rev stow their elite, for sure.

    Given that that was a pretty standard thing by good players last patch, that says a lot about you.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    It can. As I explained, it's childish to understand that you can rollface in the two situation and that the first will be more rewarding because of the pressure who will come on random fails, particulary playing buld with every tools.

    If by childish you meant "as stupid as a childs statements", yes. Because its stupid, and wrong. In the first scenario, facerolling instantly loses you the fight, because you guarantee that you have no pressure whatsoever, and they can just freely kill you. In the second scenario, facerolling is the optimal way of playing, and is guaranteed to maximise your chances of winning.

    Nice you understand that you can spam on the two setup, next you need to figure out that defensive were pretty disparate between classes.

    No, you can only spam on the second setup, the current patch. Pre-patch, spamming was a 100% guaranteed way to lose the fight instantly. Post-patch its the 100% optimal play. And sure, defenses werent exactly the same, but thats not relevant, because fights were still even. One way or another.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.

    I didnt. And it is absolutely irrelevant.

    Yeah it's sad but is is unless you macroed all your skills.

    Nope. How many clicks is 100% irrelevant to how good or effective a class is. Engineer is good despite requiring far more clicks than any other class.

    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Yes, just like you only had to evade the backstab against thief. Only, tiny issue. Both came out of stealth. Both hit their entire damage instantly. You couldnt dodge it. So no, its not worse, its better.

    Yes, now look at the number of backstab or shadowshot thief can do during your burst CD, oops.

    None, because you cant get a backstab off mid-combat, you have to disengage and find a new target? By which point the Mesmers cooldowns are all bck up. You really need to know things before you talk about them. As for shadowshot, you think thats better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab? Yeah. And thats just on the greatsword.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    If you want to have all of this you will be inneficient, maybe it's the problem in your case.

    No, actually, if you want all of this youre just playing Ranger, or Holo, or Revenant. As I said, damage is so low that you have damage and sustain by default, and the rest are just so easily obtained that its not even much of a challenge.

    Damage is low because you don't build for it, that's all. Hopefully there is people in this game who know how to adapt.

    Ok I guess you indeed are just too ignorant. No, all of those builds I mentioned build for damage. Holo straight runs explosives, alchemy and Holo with a max damage setup. Ranger also goes for max damage. Their damage is low because damage as a whole is low. They build for it, and its still not enough to ever kill anyone. But again, it seems youre just too ignorant.

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    Lol, mesmer was a standar pick, yeah sure, with 2 mes on top 100, what a standard compared to some class ratio. What not to read.

    Im guessing then its just a coencidence that in MATs, most teams had a Mirage on them, huh? Nope, sadly despite your refusal to leave your fantasy world, Mesmer was a standard pick. Its now when its basically unplayable that you dont see it.

    What did it bring to the table then ?

    .... Good burst damage? What exactly is the point of this question.

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Plus burn blink (the only safe back option in this build to come near the opponent), it's not launch from "anywhere".

    You dont need blink. Youre using stealth.

    Plus F3 stunt to prevent opponent from evade, moving and stack vuln.

    You dont need a stun, youre using stealth.

    Yeah that's why I said you never play it. No using blink or f3 mean less burst and the opponent who can evade/cast. That's the concept of lock burst.

    No, the reason you said that is because you never play it given that you seem to not understand absolute fundamentals. Not using blink or f3 means the exact same burst and the opponent CANNOT evade/cast. Do you understand what stealth is? Do you understand that if burst happens out of stealth in .1 seconds, when the fastest known human reaction time is .18 seconds its impossible for anyone to react? Yes? Good.

    So 5 skills with no back options, you basically use all your skills for this burst. Mean you can't do anything for the next 12 to 30 seconds, can't survive after this without team help, can't condiclear (mean if you took 1 weakness from random autoproc or aoe you can't burst.). I didn't even talk about reveal.

    3 skills, not 5. You still have blink, you still have invuln, you still have multiple active evades. And of course you can still do things afterwards, you havent even used all of greatswords skills yet, or any of your sword skills.

    Wow 1 sec sword evade, 50 sec CD 2 sec invul. such multiple active evade. :D

    Ah yes, because its 2 seconds not 4. Because its 50 seconds not 42. Because signets of illusion doesnt exist. And youre underselling 1 second of evasion every 8 seconds. Still, thats pretty good, most classes dont get any invulnerability.

    Now compare it to every other meta build who hadn't thoses weakness while putting this amount of damage with multiple separate skills. And as written : multiple hudge damage skill is better a less sensible to random blocs/evade/weakness/cc autoprocs.

    There arent really any classes that can push this amount of damage anywhere near as fast and unavoidable.

    Just look at auto please.

    2k auto with a half second cast time vs 17k burst within .1 second. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmmm. Yeah Idk about you, but this one seems obvious to me. The burst is way better.

    Every player who ever use this build should know this.
    Mean we can more more in detail comparing meta build with all tools, with meme burst build who drop everything for damage but I don't think it will be in you favor.

    You dont think a lot of true things. Just your fantasy world most of the time.

    Yeah I'm my world thieves haven't bad evade uptime :D .

    Yup. Thats an imaginary fantasy world alright. Oh whats this? Is this the standard thief build featuring no active evades outside of daggerstorm, and only a single extra dodge from agility, that even requires burning one of the only 2 condi clears? Which is of course far below what most classes, including Mesmer, have? Im shocked, shocked I tell you. Well, not actually that shocked. Its pretty clear youre living in a fantasy world.

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    ? Rotating always was more important than individual duelling, you should know this if you watch top stream.

    It was just as important, actually. But I guess that is what you hated. The fact that dueling mattered.

    Not really, it was more about having overpowered buttons.

    Spoken like a bad player who didnt understand the previous meta at all. Of course, it wasnt. It was about skillful play and timing.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Ha yeah the legendary 7/7 traitline with 10 utility slot mesmer. No sorry I don't mean this build.

    Ah, a lie to misdirect. Sorry, but no. The PU Mesmer standard build used all of those. Distortion is on every Mesmers toolbar, Auspicious Anguish is what you pick in Chaos Master traitslot, and Arcane Thievery was always an option. Man you really dont know when to accept that youve lost.

    So average 2 sc invul on 50 cd because you are unlikely to have 3 clones up to perfect distor who clear 2 condi.
    A condiclear who pop when you are stuck.
    AT on 20 sec CD.

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Versus
    4 conditions cleared on 18 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist. Not sure why you go for such a painfully obvious lie, but this skill doesnt exist.

    1 on 35 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist? Ill be honest, I dont even have a guess here what youre trying to refer to.

    3 on 30 sec CD.

    Exists. Signet of Agility. Your only other source of evade other than daggerstorm.

    3 on 50 sec CD.

    Exists. Shadowstep, your main stunbreak. Quite valuable.

    Mean in 3 min :
    The thief clear 73 condi, mesmer clear 40 condi. But yeah such op.

    Lets fix it. In 3 minutes, the thief clears 18 from Agility (if used off cooldown) and 9 from shadowstep. Thats 27 in 3 minutes. By comparision, Mesmer can clear at the very least 117 off of arcane thievery alone, and more if he is hit by daze or stuns or knockbacks or knockdowns or any other CC. And thats not counting distortion. Yeah its no comparision.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.

    In the real world? Have you actually looked at D/P Thief before? Ill give you a spoiler: No evasive skills anywhere to be found outside of the elite. Which is on a 90 seconds cooldown. Blurred Frenzy alone beats all of it. Man you really should know when to quit.

    You have two kind of thieves, thoses who relies on stealth, thoses who relie on evade and few mixt of the two.
    Hopefully this build hadn't all evade a thief can have + stealth.

    Stealth is awful at defense, it doesnt really protect at all. They dont rely on stealth to survive, they dont try to survive at all. They run. Thats actually what all thieves do in a fair fight, they just run. D/P, S/D, P/D, they all die if they were to fight a fair fight.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Would you now? Im not sure you would be happy on gaining vigor on cry of frustration for 10 seconds in exchange for losing all other vigor sources.

    Of course, don't forget to give me Endurance refill options and same vigor uptime as seen in sind vid.

    Only if youre willing to lose your active evades and invuln in exchange for that 1 refill. And the vigor uptime is what youre getting, 10 seconds of vigor on cry of frustration. Thats literally all thief gets. Take it or leave it.

    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Missing the point again. Your argument was "Mesmers CC is worse". Now youre saying "ok Mesmers CC is way better, but you cant use it to interrupt!!!!1!1!". I even forgot about magic bullet, so thanks for reminding me Mesmers CC is even further above thieves CC.

    That's why thief hardcounter mesmer.

    Consume plasma is why thief countered condi mesmer. Because its too good of a stolen skill. Take it away, and condi mesmer crushes thief.

    Ho nvm it's useless to have more CC if they can be nullify.

    Oh my, youre once again this close to becoming self-aware. Do you understand what youre saying? "Just having powerful buttons isnt enough if the enemy can just avoid them, I need to set them up". Congratulations, thats the old meta.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Exchange evade for stealth wow. kitten protection are you talking about, the mighty 7/7 traitline ? The 'potential aegis' XD.

    PU Mesmer. I thought you knew your own class at least to not talk complete nonsense. Evidently, I overestimated you.

    Such a reliable sustain haha. On chance on 5. And boon end as stealth end because of the "imba" duration huhu.

    ... ok I know you dont know much of anything. But not knowing your own class? Thats embarassing. Illusionary Membrane. Look it up.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF survivability with MESMER because it's way better on mesmer. Ho and don't miss the perma swiftness too hm.

    Ok, I guess you just dont know thief or Mesmer. Let me explain you this: Thief can run away better. So if he wants to avoid dying, he can do that, but then he still loses the fight by leaving. Mesmer however survives in a fight far better. Its not even a comparision. More and better active defenses, better baseline health.

    No, not really, thief run away from mes because they have better value rotating but if they want to duel, plasma alone make them win.

    In a 1v1, sure, consume plasma is a big deal. But now let them both face a Rev, or a Warrior, or a Weaver. Who do you think would die in all 3, and who do you think would have a good shot at winning all 3, pre-patch? Spoiler: The thief dies in all 3.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.
    Mean such an argument that I can use it too, pretty fun to do the answer I think I will get used to it.

    Im afraid you cant. I have already pointed out how many things you said simply contradict reality. You have yet to do the same.

    Apart that your reality isn't universal, if you want.

    Its not my reality, its just reality. And yes, its universal. Kind of in the name.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    :D putting apart the fact that one is on a 2 sec CD while the other burn your evade yeah. Than one have high switness not the other and one has better superspeed uptime yeah in a parallel world it can work. Ho and you miss jump shot.

    I guess youre ignoring the heat aspect too. I guess its too inconvenient. But as for swiftness, were talking about running away here, arent we? Being able to cover 3 times the distance in a split-second is pretty hard for the other to catch up.

    I guess youre ignoring cripple/chill options.

    No, Im not, those actually get the Mesmer even further ahead. You havent forgotten that teleports arent affected by either, have you?

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    you dig your grave guy.

    No, not really. You just continue to refuse to face the undeniable facts. You keep repeating that lie even after I have debunked it over and over. You even have yet to explain why, if you could take everything in one build, we still had DPS builds with low survivability, bunker builds with high survivability, and support builds.

    You debunker nothing, you are persuaded that the world norms is around few powecreeped things.

    I have debunked everything. Even the whole "powercreeped" nonsense. I have debunked your false ideas of thief, of Mesmer, of the old meta, and everything around it.

    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    Nice lie you wrote there. "Anymore" implies that was the case before which as I have explained is objectively not true. Its also objectively not true because its only now, after the patch, that you can. Im not in any trouble. The game is, because the meta is garbage. And you refuse to accept it. Maybe its because your fantasy world distorted your perception fo the pre-patch world. Or maybe its because you like the super-low skill-level it has right now.

    For sure I didn't like prepatch overpowered noskill meta.

    Which only existed in your imagination. In reality it was a high-skill meta. The current meta is a noskill meta. Accept reality.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Because this meta didn't exists apart on few forum whine who extrapolate ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    Will make it clear for you : a zerk signet mesmer will tank more than a paladin power mesmer.

    And I will make it clearer for you: A paladin signet mesmer will tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer. Besides, Holo, Ranger, etc., theyre nothing like signet mesmer.

    Considering it's all about active defense, no a paladin signet mesmer will not tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer at all.

    Man I forget how you say such ridiculously wrong things without hesitation. Its almost impressive how little you care about the truth. But no, what youre saying is wrong, as always.

    Nop, particulary when prepatch it was better to build pressure to survive than building on sustains things.

    Yes, thats why Prot Holo, Boonbeast and Weaver were some of the best builds, Weaver even being arguably one of the strongest classes pre-patch. Again, wrong as always.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Yeah except it wasnt, Mesmer was kitting slow setup from condi auto clone and it's not because one player manage to win for the meme with a particular setup that it was (if there wasn't 2 thieves as bodygard it would never work.). Mean in this case he could be playing anything else (or a 3rd thief for example), the result would be the same.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    You ... really dont know your own class. kitten. No, it was always a condi burst build, its sustained damage is pretty poor. So wrong, as always. And he didnt carry, but he was instrumental in the victory.

    main damage from clone auto with one telegraphied pistol bleed is a condi burst ok lol. then you come saying 6k is peanut XD.

    The main damage wasnt from clone autos. But I guess trying to educate you is pointless.

    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    You mean the leaderboards with a ton of Mirages in the top 100? With tons of Mesmer in every AT and MAT? Yeaaaaaah. Maybe you should learn a bit more before you talk.

    Ha the famous parallel world LB. It seem really a fun world, you should share the portal access to it.

    Its called "reality". Its perhaps not as nice as your fantasy world, but its the only true world. But go ahead, look back at some MATs, and you will find that you were once again wrong, as you always are.

    "Your" reality seems pretty boring.

    Its not "my" reality. Its just reality. Whether its boring or not, its the only true thing. Learn to live with it.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

    Yeah one monochoice per class, because one build regroup most tools in one. That's was the problem.

    That was the problem in your imaginary version of the game that never existed. In reality, every class had multiple choices, even ones drastically different in their goal. Instead, right now is when you have 1 choice per class, other than for Rev and Necro. If youre Engineer, youre explosive holo. If youre ranger, youre Zerk Ranger. If youre guardian, youre firebrand. If youre Ele, youre Tempest. Fun.

    Don't act like if you played all class please, mesmer had realisticly one choice and one meme choice. Most other class were inexistant (mean seeing a ele prepatch was..) or always on the same build.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok I admit, your dishonesty and/or stupidity is breaking me. "You never saw an ele pre-patch". You mean like here, where most teams, including both final teams, use a weaver? That ele you never saw? Man you really just have no qualms about denying reality. Youre right, Mesmer only had 2 choices. Which is far better than the current 0. Unlike right now, where 2 classes arent played at all because theyre unviable, you saw every single class prepatch, because they were all viable. Every single class had multiple builds, unlike right now where only Rev or Necro have more than 1 build. And I am not going to repeat myself once more, so I tell you this: Accept reality, or accept that youre a fool.

    I don't wrote there isn't I wrote they were rare. Mean there were more mes in LB than ele.

    They werent rare at all. They were very common, as you can see in the MAT. But I guess reality is inconvenient.

    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

    It doesnt. And the second part is as usual the complete opposite of the truth. You have to not be skilled at all on your rotation as opposed to before. You rollface, and thats the optimal damage rotation. Whereas pre-patch, if you facerolled, and I hate that I have to repeat this, YOU INSTANTLY LOST. Let me repeat that so it can finally get through to you. If you facerolled pre-patch, YOU INSTANTLY LOST.

    It does.

    It doesnt. End of story.

    No it does, you can write it as long as you want it will not change anything.

    I dont have to change anything. The objective truth is the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist. Thats why explosives holo, a glass cannon build in any other meta, is something you called a "tank build". And no matter how much you try to argue against it, this fact will not change.

    And no you don't instantly lost, you just spammed it until it work.

    Spoken like a true bad player who didnt understand the old meta. No, you instantly lost. If you spammed, it would never work. They use a single defensive skill to cover multiple offensive skills, then youre left with nothing to kill them, and they just kill you for free. But I guess you believing something this wrong, also explains why you thought everyone was always at 15% hp pre-patch. You kept playing horribly, spamming everything and dying as a result, and thought "well they must have had more tools", rather than admitting that you were just playing it all wrong.

    Thanks to powercreep you always had something to launch, mean spamfiesta existe since a long time.

    Except of course, you didnt, cooldowns existed pre-patch, and for the big hits were quite long. But at this point its clear you will just keep denying reality. Go ahead, have fun in your fantasy world. But dont be surprised when reality comes crashing in after this garbage meta makes the playerbase evaporate.

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Didn't read this WoT but that's just false

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Didn't read this WoT but that's just false

    Oh, whoops, youre right, its only 3. What was the other full clear skill I was thinking of, then?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2020
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Didn't read this WoT but that's just false

    Oh, whoops, youre right, its only 3. What was the other full clear skill I was thinking of, then?

    mantra? if you charge it you clear 13, not like anything will let you but still

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Sure with auto who did 2k+ you can cover multiple auto with defensive skill haha. what a joke.

    Why would you care about an auto doing 2k. You do know that, with how slow autos are, that that would take forever to kill even on an enemy with no damage reduction or healing, right? Like, not even the heal skill. No, lets break the strawman. If you spam, that means using all your high damage skills instantly. Stuff like Nade Barrage. And then it all gets covered by one defensive skill, and you lose.

    That's basically why PU burst mesmer is a one pony trick. And also why it's not meta. Because contrary to some other setup once you drop your burst you have nothing.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    You seem to not see a lot of common things when they dismantle your argument. Im starting to think you just live in a fantasy world and refuse to leave it.

    Yeah I don't live in a world where rev stow their elite, for sure.

    Given that that was a pretty standard thing by good players last patch, that says a lot about you.

    I'm sure you face thoses players everyday to figure it out lul.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    It can. As I explained, it's childish to understand that you can rollface in the two situation and that the first will be more rewarding because of the pressure who will come on random fails, particulary playing buld with every tools.

    If by childish you meant "as stupid as a childs statements", yes. Because its stupid, and wrong. In the first scenario, facerolling instantly loses you the fight, because you guarantee that you have no pressure whatsoever, and they can just freely kill you. In the second scenario, facerolling is the optimal way of playing, and is guaranteed to maximise your chances of winning.

    Nice you understand that you can spam on the two setup, next you need to figure out that defensive were pretty disparate between classes.

    No, you can only spam on the second setup, the current patch. Pre-patch, spamming was a 100% guaranteed way to lose the fight instantly. Post-patch its the 100% optimal play. And sure, defenses werent exactly the same, but thats not relevant, because fights were still even. One way or another.

    No, on many class you could put pressure just with low CD which mean that you can freely rotate it until opponent defense break.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.

    I didnt. And it is absolutely irrelevant.

    Yeah it's sad but is is unless you macroed all your skills.

    Nope. How many clicks is 100% irrelevant to how good or effective a class is. Engineer is good despite requiring far more clicks than any other class.

    If you does 4 clics to do the same thing someone do in 1 clic it mean that the one with 1 clic have 4 more skills available so 4 more possibilites. Dunno why you can't understand this simple fact.
    Plus if you need comboing hard to do the same things as a 1 clic blessed, you have more time to concentrate on rotation and map awarness.

    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Yes, just like you only had to evade the backstab against thief. Only, tiny issue. Both came out of stealth. Both hit their entire damage instantly. You couldnt dodge it. So no, its not worse, its better.

    Yes, now look at the number of backstab or shadowshot thief can do during your burst CD, oops.

    None, because you cant get a backstab off mid-combat, you have to disengage and find a new target? By which point the Mesmers cooldowns are all bck up. You really need to know things before you talk about them. As for shadowshot, you think thats better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab? Yeah. And thats just on the greatsword.

    Yeah It's so hard to stealth from clones or utility to backstab off mid-combat. You really need to go plat3 with a mesmer facing high level thieves.
    Considered shadowshot prevent casting phantasms, is a mobility skill and hit for 4 to 5k5, I really think it's better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab yeah.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    If you want to have all of this you will be inneficient, maybe it's the problem in your case.

    No, actually, if you want all of this youre just playing Ranger, or Holo, or Revenant. As I said, damage is so low that you have damage and sustain by default, and the rest are just so easily obtained that its not even much of a challenge.

    Damage is low because you don't build for it, that's all. Hopefully there is people in this game who know how to adapt.

    Ok I guess you indeed are just too ignorant. No, all of those builds I mentioned build for damage. Holo straight runs explosives, alchemy and Holo with a max damage setup. Ranger also goes for max damage. Their damage is low because damage as a whole is low. They build for it, and its still not enough to ever kill anyone. But again, it seems youre just too ignorant.

    Yay Holo isn't a tank build at all, it die and do high damage, I already state about this.
    Ranger can choose to do damage or sustain on point. If they go full damage, they aren't unkillable.

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    Lol, mesmer was a standar pick, yeah sure, with 2 mes on top 100, what a standard compared to some class ratio. What not to read.

    Im guessing then its just a coencidence that in MATs, most teams had a Mirage on them, huh? Nope, sadly despite your refusal to leave your fantasy world, Mesmer was a standard pick. Its now when its basically unplayable that you dont see it.

    What did it bring to the table then ?

    .... Good burst damage? What exactly is the point of this question.

    good burst damage when they play kitting clone spec, sure.

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Plus burn blink (the only safe back option in this build to come near the opponent), it's not launch from "anywhere".

    You dont need blink. Youre using stealth.

    Plus F3 stunt to prevent opponent from evade, moving and stack vuln.

    You dont need a stun, youre using stealth.

    Yeah that's why I said you never play it. No using blink or f3 mean less burst and the opponent who can evade/cast. That's the concept of lock burst.

    No, the reason you said that is because you never play it given that you seem to not understand absolute fundamentals. Not using blink or f3 means the exact same burst and the opponent CANNOT evade/cast. Do you understand what stealth is? Do you understand that if burst happens out of stealth in .1 seconds, when the fastest known human reaction time is .18 seconds its impossible for anyone to react? Yes? Good.

    Sigh,
    Guy as soon as you want to burst a mobile target, which has high chance to have swiftness while you haven't, stealth only isn't sufficient which happen like 80% of the time.
    You probably don't see the problem from a perma swiftness class but since superspeed on manipulation nerf and stunt on F3 nerf, good luck hitting someone with this burst (who even if you hit has chance of failed thanks to weakness autoproc or other random aoe.).

    So 5 skills with no back options, you basically use all your skills for this burst. Mean you can't do anything for the next 12 to 30 seconds, can't survive after this without team help, can't condiclear (mean if you took 1 weakness from random autoproc or aoe you can't burst.). I didn't even talk about reveal.

    3 skills, not 5. You still have blink, you still have invuln, you still have multiple active evades. And of course you can still do things afterwards, you havent even used all of greatswords skills yet, or any of your sword skills.

    Wow 1 sec sword evade, 50 sec CD 2 sec invul. such multiple active evade. :D

    Ah yes, because its 2 seconds not 4. Because its 50 seconds not 42. Because signets of illusion doesnt exist. And youre underselling 1 second of evasion every 8 seconds. Still, thats pretty good, most classes dont get any invulnerability.

    Yay again the 7/7 trailine build. Yes it's 2 seconds because you have a kitten bad clone generation on this builds.
    Yeas it's 50 sec because you don't take illusion.
    And guess what, if you take signet of illusion, you lose your "arcane thievery" condiclear.

    Now compare it to every other meta build who hadn't thoses weakness while putting this amount of damage with multiple separate skills. And as written : multiple hudge damage skill is better a less sensible to random blocs/evade/weakness/cc autoprocs.

    There arent really any classes that can push this amount of damage anywhere near as fast and unavoidable.

    Just look at auto please.

    2k auto with a half second cast time vs 17k burst within .1 second. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmmm. Yeah Idk about you, but this one seems obvious to me. The burst is way better.

    Was talking about out of burst period.
    Btw it's better to have 3 times 7-k output with 50% chances of fail than 1 time 17k with 50% chances of fail. That's why no top players streamed on mes.

    Every player who ever use this build should know this.
    Mean we can more more in detail comparing meta build with all tools, with meme burst build who drop everything for damage but I don't think it will be in you favor.

    You dont think a lot of true things. Just your fantasy world most of the time.

    Yeah I'm my world thieves haven't bad evade uptime :D .

    Yup. Thats an imaginary fantasy world alright. Oh whats this? Is this the standard thief build featuring no active evades outside of daggerstorm, and only a single extra dodge from agility, that even requires burning one of the only 2 condi clears? Which is of course far below what most classes, including Mesmer, have? Im shocked, shocked I tell you. Well, not actually that shocked. Its pretty clear youre living in a fantasy world.

    This build is about stealth.
    Even with this with signet of agility + endurance thief it has better evade uptime than a mes yeah. And the core version compesate with vigor.

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    ? Rotating always was more important than individual duelling, you should know this if you watch top stream.

    It was just as important, actually. But I guess that is what you hated. The fact that dueling mattered.

    Not really, it was more about having overpowered buttons.

    Spoken like a bad player who didnt understand the previous meta at all. Of course, it wasnt. It was about skillful play and timing.

    Like it is. Dunno why you find it hartd to time more than before calling it easy lol.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Ha yeah the legendary 7/7 traitline with 10 utility slot mesmer. No sorry I don't mean this build.

    Ah, a lie to misdirect. Sorry, but no. The PU Mesmer standard build used all of those. Distortion is on every Mesmers toolbar, Auspicious Anguish is what you pick in Chaos Master traitslot, and Arcane Thievery was always an option. Man you really dont know when to accept that youve lost.

    So average 2 sc invul on 50 cd because you are unlikely to have 3 clones up to perfect distor who clear 2 condi.
    A condiclear who pop when you are stuck.
    AT on 20 sec CD.

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Wait did we lived in a CC spam meta so this trait was so powerful....
    No 4 seconds on distortion is kitten paperplay if you don't play staff and/or DE you will not get thoses 4 sec in real situation. AT is 3 as mentionned.

    Versus
    4 conditions cleared on 18 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist. Not sure why you go for such a painfully obvious lie, but this skill doesnt exist.

    Open metabattle, look at withdraw : clear chill, cripple, immobilise, torment + give an evade.

    1 on 35 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist? Ill be honest, I dont even have a guess here what youre trying to refer to.

    Traited roll for initiative, again just the metabattle build looked.

    3 on 30 sec CD.

    Exists. Signet of Agility. Your only other source of evade other than daggerstorm.

    Yeah because withdraw, rool for initiative aren't evade at all.

    3 on 50 sec CD.

    Exists. Shadowstep, your main stunbreak. Quite valuable.

    Mean in 3 min :
    The thief clear 73 condi, mesmer clear 40 condi. But yeah such op.

    Lets fix it. In 3 minutes, the thief clears 18 from Agility (if used off cooldown) and 9 from shadowstep. Thats 27 in 3 minutes. By comparision, Mesmer can clear at the very least 117 off of arcane thievery alone, and more if he is hit by daze or stuns or knockbacks or knockdowns or any other CC. And thats not counting distortion. Yeah its no comparision.

    I want this arcane thievery version lol.
    Btw do the math again, there is not comparision yeah.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.

    In the real world? Have you actually looked at D/P Thief before? Ill give you a spoiler: No evasive skills anywhere to be found outside of the elite. Which is on a 90 seconds cooldown. Blurred Frenzy alone beats all of it. Man you really should know when to quit.

    You have two kind of thieves, thoses who relies on stealth, thoses who relie on evade and few mixt of the two.
    Hopefully this build hadn't all evade a thief can have + stealth.

    Stealth is awful at defense, it doesnt really protect at all. They dont rely on stealth to survive, they dont try to survive at all. They run. Thats actually what all thieves do in a fair fight, they just run. D/P, S/D, P/D, they all die if they were to fight a fair fight.

    So it's op on PU mesmer but awful on thief, poor thieves, we gonna buff their stealth. Yeah this build run, like other similar builds.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Would you now? Im not sure you would be happy on gaining vigor on cry of frustration for 10 seconds in exchange for losing all other vigor sources.

    Of course, don't forget to give me Endurance refill options and same vigor uptime as seen in sind vid.

    Only if youre willing to lose your active evades and invuln in exchange for that 1 refill. And the vigor uptime is what youre getting, 10 seconds of vigor on cry of frustration. Thats literally all thief gets. Take it or leave it.

    Active evade will get lose when I have the equivalent weapon survival options.
    I didn't know cry of fustration had 20 sec CD.
    It's also lovely how you miss the boonsteal effects.

    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Missing the point again. Your argument was "Mesmers CC is worse". Now youre saying "ok Mesmers CC is way better, but you cant use it to interrupt!!!!1!1!". I even forgot about magic bullet, so thanks for reminding me Mesmers CC is even further above thieves CC.

    That's why thief hardcounter mesmer.

    Consume plasma is why thief countered condi mesmer. Because its too good of a stolen skill. Take it away, and condi mesmer crushes thief.

    Yep, thanks for mentionning plasma. I was more about that because thief rupt are enough to face most situations, you didn't need a dedicated rupt mesmer to do the job.

    Ho nvm it's useless to have more CC if they can be nullify.

    Oh my, youre once again this close to becoming self-aware. Do you understand what youre saying? "Just having powerful buttons isnt enough if the enemy can just avoid them, I need to set them up". Congratulations, thats the old meta.

    Illusionary wave is far to be on the top best aoe CC in this game.
    Pistol in good but projectile, again I know some similar CC with less duration (2sec) but who are instant or not a projectile while having less CD.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Exchange evade for stealth wow. kitten protection are you talking about, the mighty 7/7 traitline ? The 'potential aegis' XD.

    PU Mesmer. I thought you knew your own class at least to not talk complete nonsense. Evidently, I overestimated you.

    Such a reliable sustain haha. On chance on 5. And boon end as stealth end because of the "imba" duration huhu.

    ... ok I know you dont know much of anything. But not knowing your own class? Thats embarassing. Illusionary Membrane. Look it up.

    ?? 2 sec protection every 15 second is op uptime and give mesmer high survability? Mean you can't even proc it when you need.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF survivability with MESMER because it's way better on mesmer. Ho and don't miss the perma swiftness too hm.

    Ok, I guess you just dont know thief or Mesmer. Let me explain you this: Thief can run away better. So if he wants to avoid dying, he can do that, but then he still loses the fight by leaving. Mesmer however survives in a fight far better. Its not even a comparision. More and better active defenses, better baseline health.

    No, not really, thief run away from mes because they have better value rotating but if they want to duel, plasma alone make them win.

    In a 1v1, sure, consume plasma is a big deal. But now let them both face a Rev, or a Warrior, or a Weaver. Who do you think would die in all 3, and who do you think would have a good shot at winning all 3, pre-patch? Spoiler: The thief dies in all 3.

    Because thoses MU were in mesmer favor... Putting apart rev depending on the build, warrior can infinite PB against clones and weaver put condipressure + has condiclear.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.
    Mean such an argument that I can use it too, pretty fun to do the answer I think I will get used to it.

    Im afraid you cant. I have already pointed out how many things you said simply contradict reality. You have yet to do the same.

    Apart that your reality isn't universal, if you want.

    Its not my reality, its just reality. And yes, its universal. Kind of in the name.

    Nop, sorry to ring you down to hard reality but it's not that simple.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    :D putting apart the fact that one is on a 2 sec CD while the other burn your evade yeah. Than one have high switness not the other and one has better superspeed uptime yeah in a parallel world it can work. Ho and you miss jump shot.

    I guess youre ignoring the heat aspect too. I guess its too inconvenient. But as for swiftness, were talking about running away here, arent we? Being able to cover 3 times the distance in a split-second is pretty hard for the other to catch up.

    I guess youre ignoring cripple/chill options.

    No, Im not, those actually get the Mesmer even further ahead. You havent forgotten that teleports arent affected by either, have you?

    Even if it's possible to run after him I will make it simpler for you : if blink is on cooldown (35 sec now) and they aren't on vertical point, the mes will never go out of the holo.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    you dig your grave guy.

    No, not really. You just continue to refuse to face the undeniable facts. You keep repeating that lie even after I have debunked it over and over. You even have yet to explain why, if you could take everything in one build, we still had DPS builds with low survivability, bunker builds with high survivability, and support builds.

    You debunker nothing, you are persuaded that the world norms is around few powecreeped things.

    I have debunked everything. Even the whole "powercreeped" nonsense. I have debunked your false ideas of thief, of Mesmer, of the old meta, and everything around it.

    Funny that you think so, I'm already not convinced.

    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    Nice lie you wrote there. "Anymore" implies that was the case before which as I have explained is objectively not true. Its also objectively not true because its only now, after the patch, that you can. Im not in any trouble. The game is, because the meta is garbage. And you refuse to accept it. Maybe its because your fantasy world distorted your perception fo the pre-patch world. Or maybe its because you like the super-low skill-level it has right now.

    For sure I didn't like prepatch overpowered noskill meta.

    Which only existed in your imagination. In reality it was a high-skill meta. The current meta is a noskill meta. Accept reality.

    Nop, you will accept the reality that it was a powercreeped meta and the current meta is a first step to a more healthy game.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Because this meta didn't exists apart on few forum whine who extrapolate ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    Will make it clear for you : a zerk signet mesmer will tank more than a paladin power mesmer.

    And I will make it clearer for you: A paladin signet mesmer will tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer. Besides, Holo, Ranger, etc., theyre nothing like signet mesmer.

    Considering it's all about active defense, no a paladin signet mesmer will not tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer at all.

    Man I forget how you say such ridiculously wrong things without hesitation. Its almost impressive how little you care about the truth. But no, what youre saying is wrong, as always.

    Nop, particulary when prepatch it was better to build pressure to survive than building on sustains things.

    Yes, thats why Prot Holo, Boonbeast and Weaver were some of the best builds, Weaver even being arguably one of the strongest classes pre-patch. Again, wrong as always.

    Another example : if you go more sustain traitline on mesmer prepatch, with taken inspiration for example, you will drop pressure and will get hit more, which will overall make you less sustainable than with DPS traitline.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Yeah except it wasnt, Mesmer was kitting slow setup from condi auto clone and it's not because one player manage to win for the meme with a particular setup that it was (if there wasn't 2 thieves as bodygard it would never work.). Mean in this case he could be playing anything else (or a 3rd thief for example), the result would be the same.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    You ... really dont know your own class. kitten. No, it was always a condi burst build, its sustained damage is pretty poor. So wrong, as always. And he didnt carry, but he was instrumental in the victory.

    main damage from clone auto with one telegraphied pistol bleed is a condi burst ok lol. then you come saying 6k is peanut XD.

    The main damage wasnt from clone autos. But I guess trying to educate you is pointless.

    That's why they finish to kill it last patch...

    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    You mean the leaderboards with a ton of Mirages in the top 100? With tons of Mesmer in every AT and MAT? Yeaaaaaah. Maybe you should learn a bit more before you talk.

    Ha the famous parallel world LB. It seem really a fun world, you should share the portal access to it.

    Its called "reality". Its perhaps not as nice as your fantasy world, but its the only true world. But go ahead, look back at some MATs, and you will find that you were once again wrong, as you always are.

    "Your" reality seems pretty boring.

    Its not "my" reality. Its just reality. Whether its boring or not, its the only true thing. Learn to live with it.

    Nop, I will not let random forum plebs decide for what I should play and find fun. We already know where did it lead.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

    Yeah one monochoice per class, because one build regroup most tools in one. That's was the problem.

    That was the problem in your imaginary version of the game that never existed. In reality, every class had multiple choices, even ones drastically different in their goal. Instead, right now is when you have 1 choice per class, other than for Rev and Necro. If youre Engineer, youre explosive holo. If youre ranger, youre Zerk Ranger. If youre guardian, youre firebrand. If youre Ele, youre Tempest. Fun.

    Don't act like if you played all class please, mesmer had realisticly one choice and one meme choice. Most other class were inexistant (mean seeing a ele prepatch was..) or always on the same build.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok I admit, your dishonesty and/or stupidity is breaking me. "You never saw an ele pre-patch". You mean like here, where most teams, including both final teams, use a weaver? That ele you never saw? Man you really just have no qualms about denying reality. Youre right, Mesmer only had 2 choices. Which is far better than the current 0. Unlike right now, where 2 classes arent played at all because theyre unviable, you saw every single class prepatch, because they were all viable. Every single class had multiple builds, unlike right now where only Rev or Necro have more than 1 build. And I am not going to repeat myself once more, so I tell you this: Accept reality, or accept that youre a fool.

    I don't wrote there isn't I wrote they were rare. Mean there were more mes in LB than ele.

    They werent rare at all. They were very common, as you can see in the MAT. But I guess reality is inconvenient.

    Again you only see the game from mAt perspective, mean mesmer mAT representation has nothing to do with LB representation for example.

    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

    It doesnt. And the second part is as usual the complete opposite of the truth. You have to not be skilled at all on your rotation as opposed to before. You rollface, and thats the optimal damage rotation. Whereas pre-patch, if you facerolled, and I hate that I have to repeat this, YOU INSTANTLY LOST. Let me repeat that so it can finally get through to you. If you facerolled pre-patch, YOU INSTANTLY LOST.

    It does.

    It doesnt. End of story.

    No it does, you can write it as long as you want it will not change anything.

    I dont have to change anything. The objective truth is the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist. Thats why explosives holo, a glass cannon build in any other meta, is something you called a "tank build". And no matter how much you try to argue against it, this fact will not change.

    I don't consider a build who can be hit for 60% HP during bursting window as "tanky". I remembered tank scrapper who were way more tankier than this.

    And no you don't instantly lost, you just spammed it until it work.

    Spoken like a true bad player who didnt understand the old meta. No, you instantly lost. If you spammed, it would never work. They use a single defensive skill to cover multiple offensive skills, then youre left with nothing to kill them, and they just kill you for free. But I guess you believing something this wrong, also explains why you thought everyone was always at 15% hp pre-patch. You kept playing horribly, spamming everything and dying as a result, and thought "well they must have had more tools", rather than admitting that you were just playing it all wrong.

    Thanks to powercreep you always had something to launch, mean spamfiesta existe since a long time.

    Except of course, you didnt, cooldowns existed pre-patch, and for the big hits were quite long. But at this point its clear you will just keep denying reality. Go ahead, have fun in your fantasy world. But dont be surprised when reality comes crashing in after this garbage meta makes the playerbase evaporate.

    Yep, it's beein age since we heard of spamfiesta.
    Of course I'm having fun. And don't worry for the playerbase, she already vanished way before the patch.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Didn't read this WoT but that's just false

    Oh, whoops, youre right, its only 3. What was the other full clear skill I was thinking of, then?

    mantra? if you charge it you clear 13, not like anything will let you but still

    Hm, must be. Well, thats an error then. And yeah, I doubt you will be able to casually cast a 2.25 second condi clear mid-combat. Or for that matter, that youre still alive after those 2.25 seconds.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Sure with auto who did 2k+ you can cover multiple auto with defensive skill haha. what a joke.

    Why would you care about an auto doing 2k. You do know that, with how slow autos are, that that would take forever to kill even on an enemy with no damage reduction or healing, right? Like, not even the heal skill. No, lets break the strawman. If you spam, that means using all your high damage skills instantly. Stuff like Nade Barrage. And then it all gets covered by one defensive skill, and you lose.

    That's basically why PU burst mesmer is a one pony trick. And also why it's not meta. Because contrary to some other setup once you drop your burst you have nothing.

    Its not meta now because damage is far too low. Your burst fails to even put a dent in anyone, and if you +1 you might as well just play thief if damage isnt that important (which it isnt).

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    You seem to not see a lot of common things when they dismantle your argument. Im starting to think you just live in a fantasy world and refuse to leave it.

    Yeah I don't live in a world where rev stow their elite, for sure.

    Given that that was a pretty standard thing by good players last patch, that says a lot about you.

    I'm sure you face thoses players everyday to figure it out lul.

    Nowadays? Nah. People just faceroll nowadays, so while its still technically correct to do, most dont. Pre-patch? Yeah, a lot. More than I even saw thieves stow-cancelling Shadowshot.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    It can. As I explained, it's childish to understand that you can rollface in the two situation and that the first will be more rewarding because of the pressure who will come on random fails, particulary playing buld with every tools.

    If by childish you meant "as stupid as a childs statements", yes. Because its stupid, and wrong. In the first scenario, facerolling instantly loses you the fight, because you guarantee that you have no pressure whatsoever, and they can just freely kill you. In the second scenario, facerolling is the optimal way of playing, and is guaranteed to maximise your chances of winning.

    Nice you understand that you can spam on the two setup, next you need to figure out that defensive were pretty disparate between classes.

    No, you can only spam on the second setup, the current patch. Pre-patch, spamming was a 100% guaranteed way to lose the fight instantly. Post-patch its the 100% optimal play. And sure, defenses werent exactly the same, but thats not relevant, because fights were still even. One way or another.

    No, on many class you could put pressure just with low CD which mean that you can freely rotate it until opponent defense break.

    3 issues. First, there was no class with low cd high damage that didnt require setup using higher CD skills. Second, they can fight back, yknow? Third, if you spammed everything, you had nothing for a bit, so their defenses wouldnt break.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.

    I didnt. And it is absolutely irrelevant.

    Yeah it's sad but is is unless you macroed all your skills.

    Nope. How many clicks is 100% irrelevant to how good or effective a class is. Engineer is good despite requiring far more clicks than any other class.

    If you does 4 clics to do the same thing someone do in 1 clic it mean that the one with 1 clic have 4 more skills available so 4 more possibilites. Dunno why you can't understand this simple fact.

    3 issues, again. Seems to be a pattern. First, not all classes have the same number of skills. An Engineer can use 6 skills, and still have more available than a thief. Second, thats ignoring whether or not the "1 button" that did damage needed other skills to be set up. Yknow, like how backstab is 1 skill, but good luck accessing it without black powder into heartseeker. Third, not all skills are equal, so even if you have more available, that doesnt even mean much, a Rev can do more with fewer skills than, say, a Weaver.

    Plus if you need comboing hard to do the same things as a 1 clic blessed, you have more time to concentrate on rotation and map awarness.

    No idea what youre even trying to say here, but given your track record, its probably wrong.

    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Yes, just like you only had to evade the backstab against thief. Only, tiny issue. Both came out of stealth. Both hit their entire damage instantly. You couldnt dodge it. So no, its not worse, its better.

    Yes, now look at the number of backstab or shadowshot thief can do during your burst CD, oops.

    None, because you cant get a backstab off mid-combat, you have to disengage and find a new target? By which point the Mesmers cooldowns are all bck up. You really need to know things before you talk about them. As for shadowshot, you think thats better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab? Yeah. And thats just on the greatsword.

    Yeah It's so hard to stealth from clones or utility to backstab off mid-combat. You really need to go plat3 with a mesmer facing high level thieves.

    How does a clone help a D/P thief to get stealth? ... are you suggesting that people play D/D thief? I mean, kitten, I know you know nothing about thief, but this is sad. As for utilities, if you get hit by a backstab off of a 1 second channel, you mustve seriously messed up.

    Considered shadowshot prevent casting phantasms, is a mobility skill and hit for 4 to 5k5, I really think it's better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab yeah.

    Your ignorance continues to impress. Shadowshot does not hit anywhere close to 4k to 5k. Thats what backstab hits for. Shadowshot hits for 70% of that, so 2.5-3.5k-ish. Which is a lot lower than phantasmal berserkers damage. And it only prevents casting phantasms if you cant clear the blind which uh, yeah lets just say with GS auto thats pretty trivial. Its a lot worse for sustained damage.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    If you want to have all of this you will be inneficient, maybe it's the problem in your case.

    No, actually, if you want all of this youre just playing Ranger, or Holo, or Revenant. As I said, damage is so low that you have damage and sustain by default, and the rest are just so easily obtained that its not even much of a challenge.

    Damage is low because you don't build for it, that's all. Hopefully there is people in this game who know how to adapt.

    Ok I guess you indeed are just too ignorant. No, all of those builds I mentioned build for damage. Holo straight runs explosives, alchemy and Holo with a max damage setup. Ranger also goes for max damage. Their damage is low because damage as a whole is low. They build for it, and its still not enough to ever kill anyone. But again, it seems youre just too ignorant.

    Yay Holo isn't a tank build at all, it die and do high damage, I already state about this.

    It doesnt ever die in a 1v1. It also doesnt do high damage, just among the highest right now, which is still low. Do I have to remind you that Obindo never killed a single Holo in a 1v1 even as power Rev? Or that the fight would be so long and pointless, that a zerk ranger decided to dance with the holo rather than to fight? Yeah, by your logic its a "tank build".

    Ranger can choose to do damage or sustain on point. If they go full damage, they aren't unkillable.

    Nope. They are unkillable unless outnumbered. They also dont choose. You go damage, and still are unkillable. Standard zerk ranger.

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    Lol, mesmer was a standar pick, yeah sure, with 2 mes on top 100, what a standard compared to some class ratio. What not to read.

    Im guessing then its just a coencidence that in MATs, most teams had a Mirage on them, huh? Nope, sadly despite your refusal to leave your fantasy world, Mesmer was a standard pick. Its now when its basically unplayable that you dont see it.

    What did it bring to the table then ?

    .... Good burst damage? What exactly is the point of this question.

    good burst damage when they play kitting clone spec, sure.

    Once again, you seem to not know what mirage was, because that isnt what it was. It was a burst spec.

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Plus burn blink (the only safe back option in this build to come near the opponent), it's not launch from "anywhere".

    You dont need blink. Youre using stealth.

    Plus F3 stunt to prevent opponent from evade, moving and stack vuln.

    You dont need a stun, youre using stealth.

    Yeah that's why I said you never play it. No using blink or f3 mean less burst and the opponent who can evade/cast. That's the concept of lock burst.

    No, the reason you said that is because you never play it given that you seem to not understand absolute fundamentals. Not using blink or f3 means the exact same burst and the opponent CANNOT evade/cast. Do you understand what stealth is? Do you understand that if burst happens out of stealth in .1 seconds, when the fastest known human reaction time is .18 seconds its impossible for anyone to react? Yes? Good.

    Sigh,
    Guy as soon as you want to burst a mobile target, which has high chance to have swiftness while you haven't, stealth only isn't sufficient which happen like 80% of the time.

    Tell me, what do you think is faster? A target in-combat with swiftness, or a target out of combat without swiftness? Seems you also forgot PU can give swiftness and Master of Manipulation gives Superspeed. So, whoops?

    You probably don't see the problem from a perma swiftness class but since superspeed on manipulation nerf and stunt on F3 nerf, good luck hitting someone with this burst (who even if you hit has chance of failed thanks to weakness autoproc or other random aoe.).

    Its not hard to do at all. And no, it doesnt fail. There are no "weakness autoprocs". Well, outside of one ranger trait no one ever uses.

    So 5 skills with no back options, you basically use all your skills for this burst. Mean you can't do anything for the next 12 to 30 seconds, can't survive after this without team help, can't condiclear (mean if you took 1 weakness from random autoproc or aoe you can't burst.). I didn't even talk about reveal.

    3 skills, not 5. You still have blink, you still have invuln, you still have multiple active evades. And of course you can still do things afterwards, you havent even used all of greatswords skills yet, or any of your sword skills.

    Wow 1 sec sword evade, 50 sec CD 2 sec invul. such multiple active evade. :D

    Ah yes, because its 2 seconds not 4. Because its 50 seconds not 42. Because signets of illusion doesnt exist. And youre underselling 1 second of evasion every 8 seconds. Still, thats pretty good, most classes dont get any invulnerability.

    Yay again the 7/7 trailine build. Yes it's 2 seconds because you have a kitten bad clone generation on this builds.

    Man you really love that "7/7 traitline" build lie. Even for your dishonesty, the obsession with that lie is unnatural. Its PU Mesmer. Standard domination, dueling, chaos. It of course isnt 2 seconds because you get 2 clones off of phantasmal berserker alone.

    Yeas it's 50 sec because you don't take illusion.

    True, thats for Mirage moreso. But hey, thats also a mesmer build, which you should know.

    And guess what, if you take signet of illusion, you lose your "arcane thievery" condiclear.

    Thats choices for ya. But fun fact, even without that, it still blows thief out of the water, who has 1 evade on 90 seconds and one on 30 seconds, and nothing else.

    Now compare it to every other meta build who hadn't thoses weakness while putting this amount of damage with multiple separate skills. And as written : multiple hudge damage skill is better a less sensible to random blocs/evade/weakness/cc autoprocs.

    There arent really any classes that can push this amount of damage anywhere near as fast and unavoidable.

    Just look at auto please.

    2k auto with a half second cast time vs 17k burst within .1 second. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmmm. Yeah Idk about you, but this one seems obvious to me. The burst is way better.

    Was talking about out of burst period.

    Which I assume is because you ignore the burst period because its inconvenient. Dishonest, Im afraid.

    Btw it's better to have 3 times 7-k output with 50% chances of fail than 1 time 17k with 50% chances of fail. That's why no top players streamed on mes.

    Except the many many streamers that did. But you dont let reality get in the way, do you?

    Every player who ever use this build should know this.
    Mean we can more more in detail comparing meta build with all tools, with meme burst build who drop everything for damage but I don't think it will be in you favor.

    You dont think a lot of true things. Just your fantasy world most of the time.

    Yeah I'm my world thieves haven't bad evade uptime :D .

    Yup. Thats an imaginary fantasy world alright. Oh whats this? Is this the standard thief build featuring no active evades outside of daggerstorm, and only a single extra dodge from agility, that even requires burning one of the only 2 condi clears? Which is of course far below what most classes, including Mesmer, have? Im shocked, shocked I tell you. Well, not actually that shocked. Its pretty clear youre living in a fantasy world.

    This build is about stealth.

    Which is useless for in-combat survivability.

    Even with this with signet of agility + endurance thief it has better evade uptime than a mes yeah. And the core version compesate with vigor.

    :lol: Man your ignorance knows no bounds. The only "endurance" thief gets outside of agility is 25 on steal. Thats nothing. Compared to that, 1 second evade every 8 seconds blows both of those combined out of the water. No, it has much worse evade uptime. And the core version doesnt, and never used any more vigor than this version. I really suggest learning about thief before saying such hilariously wrong statements.

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    ? Rotating always was more important than individual duelling, you should know this if you watch top stream.

    It was just as important, actually. But I guess that is what you hated. The fact that dueling mattered.

    Not really, it was more about having overpowered buttons.

    Spoken like a bad player who didnt understand the previous meta at all. Of course, it wasnt. It was about skillful play and timing.

    Like it is. Dunno why you find it hartd to time more than before calling it easy lol.

    I dont find it hard to time right now at all. I just observed that timing right now not only is irrelevant. Its outright the wrong play. The optimal play is to spam everything except knockbacks on cooldown. The knockbacks are the only thing you time, as well as stunbreaks for those. Thats 1 thing every, hm, 20+ seconds? Yeah, how engaging. Thats the difference. Before you had to time, or you lost. No you have to not time to be optimal.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Ha yeah the legendary 7/7 traitline with 10 utility slot mesmer. No sorry I don't mean this build.

    Ah, a lie to misdirect. Sorry, but no. The PU Mesmer standard build used all of those. Distortion is on every Mesmers toolbar, Auspicious Anguish is what you pick in Chaos Master traitslot, and Arcane Thievery was always an option. Man you really dont know when to accept that youve lost.

    So average 2 sc invul on 50 cd because you are unlikely to have 3 clones up to perfect distor who clear 2 condi.
    A condiclear who pop when you are stuck.
    AT on 20 sec CD.

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Wait did we lived in a CC spam meta so this trait was so powerful....

    Just to inform your ignorance, dazes count. And yeah, we had a lot of dazes. Like, a lot of dazes. Plus spellbreakers had their whole arsenal of CC. Oh and a few condi builds used fear, which also counts.

    No 4 seconds on distortion is kitten paperplay if you don't play staff and/or DE you will not get thoses 4 sec in real situation. AT is 3 as mentionned.

    Yup, I got AT mixed up with mantra. And nah, 4 seconds is pretty doable.

    Versus
    4 conditions cleared on 18 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist. Not sure why you go for such a painfully obvious lie, but this skill doesnt exist.

    Open metabattle, look at withdraw : clear chill, cripple, immobilise, torment + give an evade.

    Oh, so many levels of dishonest. First, D/P uses Hide in Shadow, not withdraw. Second, withdraws cooldown is 25 seconds, not 18. Third, 3 out of those are not damaging conditions, which is not what people refer to when they say "condis". Though I find it funny you forgot HiS.

    1 on 35 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist? Ill be honest, I dont even have a guess here what youre trying to refer to.

    Traited roll for initiative, again just the metabattle build looked.

    40 second cooldown, not 35. Neither Trickster, nor RfI are used.

    3 on 30 sec CD.

    Exists. Signet of Agility. Your only other source of evade other than daggerstorm.

    Yeah because withdraw, rool for initiative aren't evade at all.

    Theyre not played. So yes, they arent evades if theyre not played.

    3 on 50 sec CD.

    Exists. Shadowstep, your main stunbreak. Quite valuable.

    Mean in 3 min :
    The thief clear 73 condi, mesmer clear 40 condi. But yeah such op.

    Lets fix it. In 3 minutes, the thief clears 18 from Agility (if used off cooldown) and 9 from shadowstep. Thats 27 in 3 minutes. By comparision, Mesmer can clear at the very least 117 off of arcane thievery alone, and more if he is hit by daze or stuns or knockbacks or knockdowns or any other CC. And thats not counting distortion. Yeah its no comparision.

    I want this arcane thievery version lol.
    Btw do the math again, there is not comparision yeah.

    Ok, lets do it. Mesmer has 3 every 25, 1 every 30 (prestige), 2 every 50 (the trait) plus 2 every, lets say, 10 seconds (low-rolling it with how much daze there is about, but lets be fair I suppose). Plus the invuln from distortion. In 3 minutes thats 21+9+6+36 =72 . On the other hand, thief is 3 per 30, 3 per 50 and lets say 4 per 30 (not entirely accurate because confusion is rare and youd rather remove torment, but hey). Thats 18+9+24=51. No comparision, alright, thief is quite a bit lower.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.

    In the real world? Have you actually looked at D/P Thief before? Ill give you a spoiler: No evasive skills anywhere to be found outside of the elite. Which is on a 90 seconds cooldown. Blurred Frenzy alone beats all of it. Man you really should know when to quit.

    You have two kind of thieves, thoses who relies on stealth, thoses who relie on evade and few mixt of the two.
    Hopefully this build hadn't all evade a thief can have + stealth.

    Stealth is awful at defense, it doesnt really protect at all. They dont rely on stealth to survive, they dont try to survive at all. They run. Thats actually what all thieves do in a fair fight, they just run. D/P, S/D, P/D, they all die if they were to fight a fair fight.

    So it's op on PU mesmer but awful on thief, poor thieves, we gonna buff their stealth. Yeah this build run, like other similar builds.

    Stealth is awful at defense. Can you not read? Its bad on defense on PU Mesmer as well (which you shouldve noticed because when I talked about the defense of PU Mesmer, I didnt mention stealth once). Stealth is great at offense. For both Mesmer, and thief.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Would you now? Im not sure you would be happy on gaining vigor on cry of frustration for 10 seconds in exchange for losing all other vigor sources.

    Of course, don't forget to give me Endurance refill options and same vigor uptime as seen in sind vid.

    Only if youre willing to lose your active evades and invuln in exchange for that 1 refill. And the vigor uptime is what youre getting, 10 seconds of vigor on cry of frustration. Thats literally all thief gets. Take it or leave it.

    Active evade will get lose when I have the equivalent weapon survival options.

    You have better weapon survival options. Thiefs 2 currently played builds, D/P and P/D respectively have "almost none" (A bit of blind) and "none at all".

    I didn't know cry of fustration had 20 sec CD.

    Neither does steal. Or Swipe. I used a skill with the exact same cooldown as Swipe, and for a reason.

    It's also lovely how you miss the boonsteal effects.

    I dont. I didnt mention them because that also comes out in Mesmers favour, and I figured I wouldnt want to overdo the debunking.

    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Missing the point again. Your argument was "Mesmers CC is worse". Now youre saying "ok Mesmers CC is way better, but you cant use it to interrupt!!!!1!1!". I even forgot about magic bullet, so thanks for reminding me Mesmers CC is even further above thieves CC.

    That's why thief hardcounter mesmer.

    Consume plasma is why thief countered condi mesmer. Because its too good of a stolen skill. Take it away, and condi mesmer crushes thief.

    Yep, thanks for mentionning plasma. I was more about that because thief rupt are enough to face most situations, you didn't need a dedicated rupt mesmer to do the job.

    Power Mesmer is not focused on interrupts, its focused on bursts. Power block, if used, is icing on the cake, not the main purpose. And its not even used right now. So Im not even sure what you were trying to say here.

    Ho nvm it's useless to have more CC if they can be nullify.

    Oh my, youre once again this close to becoming self-aware. Do you understand what youre saying? "Just having powerful buttons isnt enough if the enemy can just avoid them, I need to set them up". Congratulations, thats the old meta.

    Illusionary wave is far to be on the top best aoe CC in this game.
    Pistol in good but projectile, again I know some similar CC with less duration (2sec) but who are instant or not a projectile while having less CD.

    Illusionary Wave is good. Slightly longer cast time, but much larger range and further knockback than Engi shield 4 4. Magic Bullet is amazing. Its a long stun, on a pretty low cast time and low cooldown. There are no skills that are instant cast or instant travel or have less of a CD. Actually, thats not entirely true, there is one with a lower cast time and instant travel, but with longer CD. Its Signet of Domination. Also on Mesmer. Funny how your own argument backfires.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Exchange evade for stealth wow. kitten protection are you talking about, the mighty 7/7 traitline ? The 'potential aegis' XD.

    PU Mesmer. I thought you knew your own class at least to not talk complete nonsense. Evidently, I overestimated you.

    Such a reliable sustain haha. On chance on 5. And boon end as stealth end because of the "imba" duration huhu.

    ... ok I know you dont know much of anything. But not knowing your own class? Thats embarassing. Illusionary Membrane. Look it up.

    ?? 2 sec protection every 15 second is op uptime and give mesmer high survability? Mean you can't even proc it when you need.

    Ontop of the protection you get from PU. Its not op, but its more than thief can say for itself. And it auto-procs if you get hit below 75% thanks to metaphysical (Which also regens health), so you get it when you need it.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF survivability with MESMER because it's way better on mesmer. Ho and don't miss the perma swiftness too hm.

    Ok, I guess you just dont know thief or Mesmer. Let me explain you this: Thief can run away better. So if he wants to avoid dying, he can do that, but then he still loses the fight by leaving. Mesmer however survives in a fight far better. Its not even a comparision. More and better active defenses, better baseline health.

    No, not really, thief run away from mes because they have better value rotating but if they want to duel, plasma alone make them win.

    In a 1v1, sure, consume plasma is a big deal. But now let them both face a Rev, or a Warrior, or a Weaver. Who do you think would die in all 3, and who do you think would have a good shot at winning all 3, pre-patch? Spoiler: The thief dies in all 3.

    Because thoses MU were in mesmer favor... Putting apart rev depending on the build, warrior can infinite PB against clones and weaver put condipressure + has condiclear.

    Even if theyre not favoured, Mesmer can survive against them and can win. Thief cannot.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.
    Mean such an argument that I can use it too, pretty fun to do the answer I think I will get used to it.

    Im afraid you cant. I have already pointed out how many things you said simply contradict reality. You have yet to do the same.

    Apart that your reality isn't universal, if you want.

    Its not my reality, its just reality. And yes, its universal. Kind of in the name.

    Nop, sorry to ring you down to hard reality but it's not that simple.

    You wouldnt know reality if you stared in its face (literally, it seems). So youre not bringing anyone back to reality.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    :D putting apart the fact that one is on a 2 sec CD while the other burn your evade yeah. Than one have high switness not the other and one has better superspeed uptime yeah in a parallel world it can work. Ho and you miss jump shot.

    I guess youre ignoring the heat aspect too. I guess its too inconvenient. But as for swiftness, were talking about running away here, arent we? Being able to cover 3 times the distance in a split-second is pretty hard for the other to catch up.

    I guess youre ignoring cripple/chill options.

    No, Im not, those actually get the Mesmer even further ahead. You havent forgotten that teleports arent affected by either, have you?

    Even if it's possible to run after him I will make it simpler for you : if blink is on cooldown (35 sec now) and they aren't on vertical point, the mes will never go out of the holo.

    "If the Mesmers mobility is on cooldown and the Engineers heat isnt too high, the Mesmer cant run away". Besides the fact that you engineered an unlikely and precise scenario just to not be wrong ... you still are wrong. Mesmer still outruns Engineer. Jaunt, remember?

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    you dig your grave guy.

    No, not really. You just continue to refuse to face the undeniable facts. You keep repeating that lie even after I have debunked it over and over. You even have yet to explain why, if you could take everything in one build, we still had DPS builds with low survivability, bunker builds with high survivability, and support builds.

    You debunker nothing, you are persuaded that the world norms is around few powecreeped things.

    I have debunked everything. Even the whole "powercreeped" nonsense. I have debunked your false ideas of thief, of Mesmer, of the old meta, and everything around it.

    Funny that you think so, I'm already not convinced.

    Youre not big on reality. There is no convincing you. You could see 2 zerk high-damage builds synchronised dancing rather than fighting because they know neither of them will die, and you still try to argue theyre not unkillable in fair fights.

    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    Nice lie you wrote there. "Anymore" implies that was the case before which as I have explained is objectively not true. Its also objectively not true because its only now, after the patch, that you can. Im not in any trouble. The game is, because the meta is garbage. And you refuse to accept it. Maybe its because your fantasy world distorted your perception fo the pre-patch world. Or maybe its because you like the super-low skill-level it has right now.

    For sure I didn't like prepatch overpowered noskill meta.

    Which only existed in your imagination. In reality it was a high-skill meta. The current meta is a noskill meta. Accept reality.

    Nop, you will accept the reality that it was a powercreeped meta and the current meta is a first step to a more healthy game.

    I cant accept a reality that isnt real. It wasnt a "powercrept meta", this is a "powerdipped meta". And its the first to a more unhealthy game. The meta has not been this unhealthy since Cele Ele. Its the biggest step backwards the game has had, and just reverting it would go a long way to improving the game. Or alternatively we up the damage by 20-30%.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Because this meta didn't exists apart on few forum whine who extrapolate ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    Will make it clear for you : a zerk signet mesmer will tank more than a paladin power mesmer.

    And I will make it clearer for you: A paladin signet mesmer will tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer. Besides, Holo, Ranger, etc., theyre nothing like signet mesmer.

    Considering it's all about active defense, no a paladin signet mesmer will not tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer at all.

    Man I forget how you say such ridiculously wrong things without hesitation. Its almost impressive how little you care about the truth. But no, what youre saying is wrong, as always.

    Nop, particulary when prepatch it was better to build pressure to survive than building on sustains things.

    Yes, thats why Prot Holo, Boonbeast and Weaver were some of the best builds, Weaver even being arguably one of the strongest classes pre-patch. Again, wrong as always.

    Another example : if you go more sustain traitline on mesmer prepatch, with taken inspiration for example, you will drop pressure and will get hit more, which will overall make you less sustainable than with DPS traitline.#

    Yeah except the most sustainable Mesmer was Chronobunker. So wrong, as always. Nah, the thing is that Mesmer wasnt good at being a bunker build anymore, thats all there is to it. But those who could play bunker, bunker was obviously way more survivable.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Yeah except it wasnt, Mesmer was kitting slow setup from condi auto clone and it's not because one player manage to win for the meme with a particular setup that it was (if there wasn't 2 thieves as bodygard it would never work.). Mean in this case he could be playing anything else (or a 3rd thief for example), the result would be the same.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    You ... really dont know your own class. kitten. No, it was always a condi burst build, its sustained damage is pretty poor. So wrong, as always. And he didnt carry, but he was instrumental in the victory.

    main damage from clone auto with one telegraphied pistol bleed is a condi burst ok lol. then you come saying 6k is peanut XD.

    The main damage wasnt from clone autos. But I guess trying to educate you is pointless.

    That's why they finish to kill it last patch...

    Yes. Because of its burst. And the fact that people didnt like that it could burst while being effectively untouchable.

    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    You mean the leaderboards with a ton of Mirages in the top 100? With tons of Mesmer in every AT and MAT? Yeaaaaaah. Maybe you should learn a bit more before you talk.

    Ha the famous parallel world LB. It seem really a fun world, you should share the portal access to it.

    Its called "reality". Its perhaps not as nice as your fantasy world, but its the only true world. But go ahead, look back at some MATs, and you will find that you were once again wrong, as you always are.

    "Your" reality seems pretty boring.

    Its not "my" reality. Its just reality. Whether its boring or not, its the only true thing. Learn to live with it.

    Nop, I will not let random forum plebs decide for what I should play and find fun. We already know where did it lead.

    And yet you try to decide for others what they should play and find fun, including forcing sidenoders to play boring builds that cant kill each other, and telling them they should find being a waste of time fun. Besides, Im not telling you that. Youre free to dislike the old meta. But you cant say that it was less skilled, because it objectively was far more skilled. As I said its not my reality, its the reality.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

    Yeah one monochoice per class, because one build regroup most tools in one. That's was the problem.

    That was the problem in your imaginary version of the game that never existed. In reality, every class had multiple choices, even ones drastically different in their goal. Instead, right now is when you have 1 choice per class, other than for Rev and Necro. If youre Engineer, youre explosive holo. If youre ranger, youre Zerk Ranger. If youre guardian, youre firebrand. If youre Ele, youre Tempest. Fun.

    Don't act like if you played all class please, mesmer had realisticly one choice and one meme choice. Most other class were inexistant (mean seeing a ele prepatch was..) or always on the same build.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok I admit, your dishonesty and/or stupidity is breaking me. "You never saw an ele pre-patch". You mean like here, where most teams, including both final teams, use a weaver? That ele you never saw? Man you really just have no qualms about denying reality. Youre right, Mesmer only had 2 choices. Which is far better than the current 0. Unlike right now, where 2 classes arent played at all because theyre unviable, you saw every single class prepatch, because they were all viable. Every single class had multiple builds, unlike right now where only Rev or Necro have more than 1 build. And I am not going to repeat myself once more, so I tell you this: Accept reality, or accept that youre a fool.

    I don't wrote there isn't I wrote they were rare. Mean there were more mes in LB than ele.

    They werent rare at all. They were very common, as you can see in the MAT. But I guess reality is inconvenient.

    Again you only see the game from mAt perspective, mean mesmer mAT representation has nothing to do with LB representation for example.

    LB representation was no different. It pretty much always reflects MAT representation.

    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

    It doesnt. And the second part is as usual the complete opposite of the truth. You have to not be skilled at all on your rotation as opposed to before. You rollface, and thats the optimal damage rotation. Whereas pre-patch, if you facerolled, and I hate that I have to repeat this, YOU INSTANTLY LOST. Let me repeat that so it can finally get through to you. If you facerolled pre-patch, YOU INSTANTLY LOST.

    It does.

    It doesnt. End of story.

    No it does, you can write it as long as you want it will not change anything.

    I dont have to change anything. The objective truth is the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist. Thats why explosives holo, a glass cannon build in any other meta, is something you called a "tank build". And no matter how much you try to argue against it, this fact will not change.

    I don't consider a build who can be hit for 60% HP during bursting window as "tanky". I remembered tank scrapper who were way more tankier than this.

    Losing 60% hp is meaningless when they can just get it back. What matters is, "can the build be killed without being outnumbered". If no, its a tank build. Right now its no for everyone. So everyone is effectively a tank build.

    And no you don't instantly lost, you just spammed it until it work.

    Spoken like a true bad player who didnt understand the old meta. No, you instantly lost. If you spammed, it would never work. They use a single defensive skill to cover multiple offensive skills, then youre left with nothing to kill them, and they just kill you for free. But I guess you believing something this wrong, also explains why you thought everyone was always at 15% hp pre-patch. You kept playing horribly, spamming everything and dying as a result, and thought "well they must have had more tools", rather than admitting that you were just playing it all wrong.

    Thanks to powercreep you always had something to launch, mean spamfiesta existe since a long time.

    Except of course, you didnt, cooldowns existed pre-patch, and for the big hits were quite long. But at this point its clear you will just keep denying reality. Go ahead, have fun in your fantasy world. But dont be surprised when reality comes crashing in after this garbage meta makes the playerbase evaporate.

    Yep, it's beein age since we heard of spamfiesta.

    Not really. Spamfiesta is what we have right now. Pre-patch its been ages since we had a spam fiesta. I wanna say, early HoT, maybe?

    Of course I'm having fun. And don't worry for the playerbase, she already vanished way before the patch.

    Hey, youre free to like less skilled metas than more skilled ones. You just cant use that to try and deny that this meta is far less skilled. And nah, the playerbase was stagnant, but it was bigger. Its post-patch that it fell off a cliff.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    literally had a 3v3 team fight lasted 5 mins almost fall asleep.

    and @viquing.8254 @Arheundel.6451 say now takes more skill? bruh, definitely takes skill to no fall asleep during this braindead spam fest.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    FACT: It is a more skillful meta because two players dumping all of their skills off cool down 20 times on each other before someone plusses the fight and kills someone means more skills are cast. FACT.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    I've never had more time out games than this current state of pillow fighting.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Sure with auto who did 2k+ you can cover multiple auto with defensive skill haha. what a joke.

    Why would you care about an auto doing 2k. You do know that, with how slow autos are, that that would take forever to kill even on an enemy with no damage reduction or healing, right? Like, not even the heal skill. No, lets break the strawman. If you spam, that means using all your high damage skills instantly. Stuff like Nade Barrage. And then it all gets covered by one defensive skill, and you lose.

    That's basically why PU burst mesmer is a one pony trick. And also why it's not meta. Because contrary to some other setup once you drop your burst you have nothing.

    Its not meta now because damage is far too low. Your burst fails to even put a dent in anyone, and if you +1 you might as well just play thief if damage isnt that important (which it isnt).

    No it's not meta because it lose the lock part on a "lock burst" spec.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    You seem to not see a lot of common things when they dismantle your argument. Im starting to think you just live in a fantasy world and refuse to leave it.

    Yeah I don't live in a world where rev stow their elite, for sure.

    Given that that was a pretty standard thing by good players last patch, that says a lot about you.

    I'm sure you face thoses players everyday to figure it out lul.

    Nowadays? Nah. People just faceroll nowadays, so while its still technically correct to do, most dont. Pre-patch? Yeah, a lot. More than I even saw thieves stow-cancelling Shadowshot.

    You usually use shadowshot to counter enemy cast with blind (more than to gap closer mele autoing.), in which stow this is totally absurb.
    Ho wait, what if the opponent stow his attack to thief has to stow his shadowshot then. Stow meta omg.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    It can. As I explained, it's childish to understand that you can rollface in the two situation and that the first will be more rewarding because of the pressure who will come on random fails, particulary playing buld with every tools.

    If by childish you meant "as stupid as a childs statements", yes. Because its stupid, and wrong. In the first scenario, facerolling instantly loses you the fight, because you guarantee that you have no pressure whatsoever, and they can just freely kill you. In the second scenario, facerolling is the optimal way of playing, and is guaranteed to maximise your chances of winning.

    Nice you understand that you can spam on the two setup, next you need to figure out that defensive were pretty disparate between classes.

    No, you can only spam on the second setup, the current patch. Pre-patch, spamming was a 100% guaranteed way to lose the fight instantly. Post-patch its the 100% optimal play. And sure, defenses werent exactly the same, but thats not relevant, because fights were still even. One way or another.

    No, on many class you could put pressure just with low CD which mean that you can freely rotate it until opponent defense break.

    3 issues. First, there was no class with low cd high damage that didnt require setup using higher CD skills. Second, they can fight back, yknow? Third, if you spammed everything, you had nothing for a bit, so their defenses wouldnt break.

    Well, we didn't agree about what high damage are, so starting with this, how can you continue arguing about this. Mean 6k isn't peanuts...

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.

    I didnt. And it is absolutely irrelevant.

    Yeah it's sad but is is unless you macroed all your skills.

    Nope. How many clicks is 100% irrelevant to how good or effective a class is. Engineer is good despite requiring far more clicks than any other class.

    If you does 4 clics to do the same thing someone do in 1 clic it mean that the one with 1 clic have 4 more skills available so 4 more possibilites. Dunno why you can't understand this simple fact.

    3 issues, again. Seems to be a pattern. First, not all classes have the same number of skills. An Engineer can use 6 skills, and still have more available than a thief. Second, thats ignoring whether or not the "1 button" that did damage needed other skills to be set up. Yknow, like how backstab is 1 skill, but good luck accessing it without black powder into heartseeker. Third, not all skills are equal, so even if you have more available, that doesnt even mean much, a Rev can do more with fewer skills than, say, a Weaver.

    Yeah it's true.

    Plus if you need comboing hard to do the same things as a 1 clic blessed, you have more time to concentrate on rotation and map awarness.

    No idea what youre even trying to say here, but given your track record, its probably wrong.

    The idea is that if the build play for you thanks to easy setup (mean no combo needed), you have more time looking at map rotation.

    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Yes, just like you only had to evade the backstab against thief. Only, tiny issue. Both came out of stealth. Both hit their entire damage instantly. You couldnt dodge it. So no, its not worse, its better.

    Yes, now look at the number of backstab or shadowshot thief can do during your burst CD, oops.

    None, because you cant get a backstab off mid-combat, you have to disengage and find a new target? By which point the Mesmers cooldowns are all bck up. You really need to know things before you talk about them. As for shadowshot, you think thats better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab? Yeah. And thats just on the greatsword.

    Yeah It's so hard to stealth from clones or utility to backstab off mid-combat. You really need to go plat3 with a mesmer facing high level thieves.

    How does a clone help a D/P thief to get stealth? ... are you suggesting that people play D/D thief? I mean, kitten, I know you know nothing about thief, but this is sad. As for utilities, if you get hit by a backstab off of a 1 second channel, you mustve seriously messed up.

    Yep I regulary meet D/D thief. Because D/P know they can be rupt when I'm playing MoD.

    Considered shadowshot prevent casting phantasms, is a mobility skill and hit for 4 to 5k5, I really think it's better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab yeah.

    Your ignorance continues to impress. Shadowshot does not hit anywhere close to 4k to 5k. Thats what backstab hits for. Shadowshot hits for 70% of that, so 2.5-3.5k-ish. Which is a lot lower than phantasmal berserkers damage. And it only prevents casting phantasms if you cant clear the blind which uh, yeah lets just say with GS auto thats pretty trivial. Its a lot worse for sustained damage.

    You want I screenshot every shadowshot > 4k I took ? Just been around 10 yesterday but next time I can capture them if you want.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    If you want to have all of this you will be inneficient, maybe it's the problem in your case.

    No, actually, if you want all of this youre just playing Ranger, or Holo, or Revenant. As I said, damage is so low that you have damage and sustain by default, and the rest are just so easily obtained that its not even much of a challenge.

    Damage is low because you don't build for it, that's all. Hopefully there is people in this game who know how to adapt.

    Ok I guess you indeed are just too ignorant. No, all of those builds I mentioned build for damage. Holo straight runs explosives, alchemy and Holo with a max damage setup. Ranger also goes for max damage. Their damage is low because damage as a whole is low. They build for it, and its still not enough to ever kill anyone. But again, it seems youre just too ignorant.

    Yay Holo isn't a tank build at all, it die and do high damage, I already state about this.

    It doesnt ever die in a 1v1. It also doesnt do high damage, just among the highest right now, which is still low. Do I have to remind you that Obindo never killed a single Holo in a 1v1 even as power Rev? Or that the fight would be so long and pointless, that a zerk ranger decided to dance with the holo rather than to fight? Yeah, by your logic its a "tank build".

    Did you watch the last mAt ?

    Ranger can choose to do damage or sustain on point. If they go full damage, they aren't unkillable.

    Nope. They are unkillable unless outnumbered. They also dont choose. You go damage, and still are unkillable. Standard zerk ranger.

    Condi ranger yep, zerk ranger have to drop point to sustain.

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    Lol, mesmer was a standar pick, yeah sure, with 2 mes on top 100, what a standard compared to some class ratio. What not to read.

    Im guessing then its just a coencidence that in MATs, most teams had a Mirage on them, huh? Nope, sadly despite your refusal to leave your fantasy world, Mesmer was a standard pick. Its now when its basically unplayable that you dont see it.

    What did it bring to the table then ?

    .... Good burst damage? What exactly is the point of this question.

    good burst damage when they play kitting clone spec, sure.

    Once again, you seem to not know what mirage was, because that isnt what it was. It was a burst spec.

    ... A 4 seconds condition application who does around 50% life damage isn't a burst spec or we had to defining about which damage a burst spec is a burst spec ?

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Plus burn blink (the only safe back option in this build to come near the opponent), it's not launch from "anywhere".

    You dont need blink. Youre using stealth.

    Plus F3 stunt to prevent opponent from evade, moving and stack vuln.

    You dont need a stun, youre using stealth.

    Yeah that's why I said you never play it. No using blink or f3 mean less burst and the opponent who can evade/cast. That's the concept of lock burst.

    No, the reason you said that is because you never play it given that you seem to not understand absolute fundamentals. Not using blink or f3 means the exact same burst and the opponent CANNOT evade/cast. Do you understand what stealth is? Do you understand that if burst happens out of stealth in .1 seconds, when the fastest known human reaction time is .18 seconds its impossible for anyone to react? Yes? Good.

    Sigh,
    Guy as soon as you want to burst a mobile target, which has high chance to have swiftness while you haven't, stealth only isn't sufficient which happen like 80% of the time.

    Tell me, what do you think is faster? A target in-combat with swiftness, or a target out of combat without swiftness? Seems you also forgot PU can give swiftness and Master of Manipulation gives Superspeed. So, whoops?

    Why a target should be out-combat while not the other ?
    Btw, PU boon end at the end of stealth, you clearly can't stack them.
    And superspeed was nerfed, holo has better uptime.

    You probably don't see the problem from a perma swiftness class but since superspeed on manipulation nerf and stunt on F3 nerf, good luck hitting someone with this burst (who even if you hit has chance of failed thanks to weakness autoproc or other random aoe.).

    Its not hard to do at all. And no, it doesnt fail. There are no "weakness autoprocs". Well, outside of one ranger trait no one ever uses.

    It's not hard to do, it will just fail but you need to try it to figure it out unless you are fighting bot or pillow in gold 1.
    Weakness autoprocs on thief attacks, ranger, chaos armor, nec random corrupt. And I 'm questioning if ele has a way to do it.

    So 5 skills with no back options, you basically use all your skills for this burst. Mean you can't do anything for the next 12 to 30 seconds, can't survive after this without team help, can't condiclear (mean if you took 1 weakness from random autoproc or aoe you can't burst.). I didn't even talk about reveal.

    3 skills, not 5. You still have blink, you still have invuln, you still have multiple active evades. And of course you can still do things afterwards, you havent even used all of greatswords skills yet, or any of your sword skills.

    Wow 1 sec sword evade, 50 sec CD 2 sec invul. such multiple active evade. :D

    Ah yes, because its 2 seconds not 4. Because its 50 seconds not 42. Because signets of illusion doesnt exist. And youre underselling 1 second of evasion every 8 seconds. Still, thats pretty good, most classes dont get any invulnerability.

    Yay again the 7/7 trailine build. Yes it's 2 seconds because you have a kitten bad clone generation on this builds.

    Man you really love that "7/7 traitline" build lie. Even for your dishonesty, the obsession with that lie is unnatural. Its PU Mesmer. Standard domination, dueling, chaos. It of course isnt 2 seconds because you get 2 clones off of phantasmal berserker alone.

    Man you have to choose between signet of illusion or arcane thievery there is nothing to debate here.
    This burst used mental anguish so no 2 clones off of phantasmal berserker, no.
    It's no dishonesty, it's the fact you can have all trait and all ulitity in one build.

    Yeas it's 50 sec because you don't take illusion.

    True, thats for Mirage moreso. But hey, thats also a mesmer build, which you should know.

    And guess what, if you take signet of illusion, you lose your "arcane thievery" condiclear.

    Thats choices for ya. But fun fact, even without that, it still blows thief out of the water, who has 1 evade on 90 seconds and one on 30 seconds, and nothing else.

    Ask sind if he die versus core PU mesmer with just "1 evade on 90 second and one on 30 seconds" when he duel misha.

    Now compare it to every other meta build who hadn't thoses weakness while putting this amount of damage with multiple separate skills. And as written : multiple hudge damage skill is better a less sensible to random blocs/evade/weakness/cc autoprocs.

    There arent really any classes that can push this amount of damage anywhere near as fast and unavoidable.

    Just look at auto please.

    2k auto with a half second cast time vs 17k burst within .1 second. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmmm. Yeah Idk about you, but this one seems obvious to me. The burst is way better.

    Was talking about out of burst period.

    Which I assume is because you ignore the burst period because its inconvenient. Dishonest, Im afraid.

    Becasue again a one burst with 50% chances of fail is worse than 3 70% lower burst with 50% chances of fail.

    Btw it's better to have 3 times 7-k output with 50% chances of fail than 1 time 17k with 50% chances of fail. That's why no top players streamed on mes.

    Except the many many streamers that did. But you dont let reality get in the way, do you?

    How much is many for you ?
    They rarely do it and when they do, they either rage about how op mesmer is while barely perform with it.

    Every player who ever use this build should know this.
    Mean we can more more in detail comparing meta build with all tools, with meme burst build who drop everything for damage but I don't think it will be in you favor.

    You dont think a lot of true things. Just your fantasy world most of the time.

    Yeah I'm my world thieves haven't bad evade uptime :D .

    Yup. Thats an imaginary fantasy world alright. Oh whats this? Is this the standard thief build featuring no active evades outside of daggerstorm, and only a single extra dodge from agility, that even requires burning one of the only 2 condi clears? Which is of course far below what most classes, including Mesmer, have? Im shocked, shocked I tell you. Well, not actually that shocked. Its pretty clear youre living in a fantasy world.

    This build is about stealth.

    Which is useless for in-combat survivability.

    Whiwh is enough to do what this build is for, you should compare it to PU burst, not to condi mirage.

    Even with this with signet of agility + endurance thief it has better evade uptime than a mes yeah. And the core version compesate with vigor.

    :lol: Man your ignorance knows no bounds. The only "endurance" thief gets outside of agility is 25 on steal. Thats nothing. Compared to that, 1 second evade every 8 seconds blows both of those combined out of the water. No, it has much worse evade uptime. And the core version doesnt, and never used any more vigor than this version. I really suggest learning about thief before saying such hilariously wrong statements.

    Steal is on a 20 sec CD. Watching thieves stream, they regulary steal vigor and combining with the base 10, they can maintain pretty good uptime on this.

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    ? Rotating always was more important than individual duelling, you should know this if you watch top stream.

    It was just as important, actually. But I guess that is what you hated. The fact that dueling mattered.

    Not really, it was more about having overpowered buttons.

    Spoken like a bad player who didnt understand the previous meta at all. Of course, it wasnt. It was about skillful play and timing.

    Like it is. Dunno why you find it hartd to time more than before calling it easy lol.

    I dont find it hard to time right now at all. I just observed that timing right now not only is irrelevant. Its outright the wrong play. The optimal play is to spam everything except knockbacks on cooldown. The knockbacks are the only thing you time, as well as stunbreaks for those. Thats 1 thing every, hm, 20+ seconds? Yeah, how engaging. Thats the difference. Before you had to time, or you lost. No you have to not time to be optimal.

    If I don't rupt every nec heal I have high chances to die. So saying timing is nothing is false. And it was just an exeample, many keyskill on profession alway had to be rupt/blocked.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Ha yeah the legendary 7/7 traitline with 10 utility slot mesmer. No sorry I don't mean this build.

    Ah, a lie to misdirect. Sorry, but no. The PU Mesmer standard build used all of those. Distortion is on every Mesmers toolbar, Auspicious Anguish is what you pick in Chaos Master traitslot, and Arcane Thievery was always an option. Man you really dont know when to accept that youve lost.

    So average 2 sc invul on 50 cd because you are unlikely to have 3 clones up to perfect distor who clear 2 condi.
    A condiclear who pop when you are stuck.
    AT on 20 sec CD.

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Wait did we lived in a CC spam meta so this trait was so powerful....

    Just to inform your ignorance, dazes count. And yeah, we had a lot of dazes. Like, a lot of dazes. Plus spellbreakers had their whole arsenal of CC. Oh and a few condi builds used fear, which also counts.

    So because of everyone rollfacing prepatch, this trait is good, nice.
    Because we already know that as long as you play condi and you know the mes is on this build you will just throw condi seeing him die, no spam CC on him isn't it ?
    Btw, to counter this, just play one of the 4 class with reveal and enjoy you freekill.

    No 4 seconds on distortion is kitten paperplay if you don't play staff and/or DE you will not get thoses 4 sec in real situation. AT is 3 as mentionned.

    Yup, I got AT mixed up with mantra. And nah, 4 seconds is pretty doable.

    Versus
    4 conditions cleared on 18 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist. Not sure why you go for such a painfully obvious lie, but this skill doesnt exist.

    Open metabattle, look at withdraw : clear chill, cripple, immobilise, torment + give an evade.

    Oh, so many levels of dishonest. First, D/P uses Hide in Shadow, not withdraw. Second, withdraws cooldown is 25 seconds, not 18. Third, 3 out of those are not damaging conditions, which is not what people refer to when they say "condis". Though I find it funny you forgot HiS.

    1 on 35 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist? Ill be honest, I dont even have a guess here what youre trying to refer to.

    Traited roll for initiative, again just the metabattle build looked.

    40 second cooldown, not 35. Neither Trickster, nor RfI are used.

    3 on 30 sec CD.

    Exists. Signet of Agility. Your only other source of evade other than daggerstorm.

    Yeah because withdraw, rool for initiative aren't evade at all.

    Theyre not played. So yes, they arent evades if theyre not played.

    3 on 50 sec CD.

    Exists. Shadowstep, your main stunbreak. Quite valuable.

    Mean in 3 min :
    The thief clear 73 condi, mesmer clear 40 condi. But yeah such op.

    Lets fix it. In 3 minutes, the thief clears 18 from Agility (if used off cooldown) and 9 from shadowstep. Thats 27 in 3 minutes. By comparision, Mesmer can clear at the very least 117 off of arcane thievery alone, and more if he is hit by daze or stuns or knockbacks or knockdowns or any other CC. And thats not counting distortion. Yeah its no comparision.

    I want this arcane thievery version lol.
    Btw do the math again, there is not comparision yeah.

    Ok, lets do it. Mesmer has 3 every 25, 1 every 30 (prestige), 2 every 50 (the trait) plus 2 every, lets say, 10 seconds (low-rolling it with how much daze there is about, but lets be fair I suppose). Plus the invuln from distortion. In 3 minutes thats 21+9+6+36 =72 . On the other hand, thief is 3 per 30, 3 per 50 and lets say 4 per 30 (not entirely accurate because confusion is rare and youd rather remove torment, but hey). Thats 18+9+24=51. No comparision, alright, thief is quite a bit lower.

    Yeah I was looking at the core version linked on metabattle.
    2 every 10 seconds barely happen in duel unless you fight a bot who has no clue about your build.
    You should know that no-damaging condition can be more lethal than the damaging one.
    Mean there is a reason there is overall more thieves than mesmers since they halves mesmers output by 50% 3 times and it's not only because of infiltrator's arrow.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.

    In the real world? Have you actually looked at D/P Thief before? Ill give you a spoiler: No evasive skills anywhere to be found outside of the elite. Which is on a 90 seconds cooldown. Blurred Frenzy alone beats all of it. Man you really should know when to quit.

    You have two kind of thieves, thoses who relies on stealth, thoses who relie on evade and few mixt of the two.
    Hopefully this build hadn't all evade a thief can have + stealth.

    Stealth is awful at defense, it doesnt really protect at all. They dont rely on stealth to survive, they dont try to survive at all. They run. Thats actually what all thieves do in a fair fight, they just run. D/P, S/D, P/D, they all die if they were to fight a fair fight.

    So it's op on PU mesmer but awful on thief, poor thieves, we gonna buff their stealth. Yeah this build run, like other similar builds.

    Stealth is awful at defense. Can you not read? Its bad on defense on PU Mesmer as well (which you shouldve noticed because when I talked about the defense of PU Mesmer, I didnt mention stealth once). Stealth is great at offense. For both Mesmer, and thief.

    Ok then we agree.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Would you now? Im not sure you would be happy on gaining vigor on cry of frustration for 10 seconds in exchange for losing all other vigor sources.

    Of course, don't forget to give me Endurance refill options and same vigor uptime as seen in sind vid.

    Only if youre willing to lose your active evades and invuln in exchange for that 1 refill. And the vigor uptime is what youre getting, 10 seconds of vigor on cry of frustration. Thats literally all thief gets. Take it or leave it.

    Active evade will get lose when I have the equivalent weapon survival options.

    You have better weapon survival options. Thiefs 2 currently played builds, D/P and P/D respectively have "almost none" (A bit of blind) and "none at all".

    5 second blind mean you can't wait for it to disapear. Mean it's unblocable on top of that. Should I precise blinding dissipation duration is 1.5 sec on a 25 sec cd ?
    You have way better mobility.

    I didn't know cry of fustration had 20 sec CD.

    Neither does steal. Or Swipe. I used a skill with the exact same cooldown as Swipe, and for a reason.

    It's also lovely how you miss the boonsteal effects.

    I dont. I didnt mention them because that also comes out in Mesmers favour, and I figured I wouldnt want to overdo the debunking.

    20 sec vs 25 sec CD. Putting apart the teleport vs condi transfered ratio, the boonsteal part isn't in mesmers favour.

    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Missing the point again. Your argument was "Mesmers CC is worse". Now youre saying "ok Mesmers CC is way better, but you cant use it to interrupt!!!!1!1!". I even forgot about magic bullet, so thanks for reminding me Mesmers CC is even further above thieves CC.

    That's why thief hardcounter mesmer.

    Consume plasma is why thief countered condi mesmer. Because its too good of a stolen skill. Take it away, and condi mesmer crushes thief.

    Yep, thanks for mentionning plasma. I was more about that because thief rupt are enough to face most situations, you didn't need a dedicated rupt mesmer to do the job.

    Power Mesmer is not focused on interrupts, its focused on bursts. Power block, if used, is icing on the cake, not the main purpose. And its not even used right now. So Im not even sure what you were trying to say here.

    Power mesmer is focused on burst while going one trick things with all damaging trait = no rupt skills.
    Or on rupt by taking rupt skills but he can't high burst anymore.
    Choices.

    Ho nvm it's useless to have more CC if they can be nullify.

    Oh my, youre once again this close to becoming self-aware. Do you understand what youre saying? "Just having powerful buttons isnt enough if the enemy can just avoid them, I need to set them up". Congratulations, thats the old meta.

    Illusionary wave is far to be on the top best aoe CC in this game.
    Pistol in good but projectile, again I know some similar CC with less duration (2sec) but who are instant or not a projectile while having less CD.

    Illusionary Wave is good. Slightly longer cast time, but much larger range and further knockback than Engi shield 4 4. Magic Bullet is amazing. Its a long stun, on a pretty low cast time and low cooldown. There are no skills that are instant cast or instant travel or have less of a CD. Actually, thats not entirely true, there is one with a lower cast time and instant travel, but with longer CD. Its Signet of Domination. Also on Mesmer. Funny how your own argument backfires.

    Come on near every meta pop instant aoe CC, often on ring, no on wave. Only rev ulti has better animation but gives superspeed.
    Magic bullet is good. I just check the 2 sec skill I had in mind, it was daze my bad, I'm questionning if weaver didn't had one though.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Exchange evade for stealth wow. kitten protection are you talking about, the mighty 7/7 traitline ? The 'potential aegis' XD.

    PU Mesmer. I thought you knew your own class at least to not talk complete nonsense. Evidently, I overestimated you.

    Such a reliable sustain haha. On chance on 5. And boon end as stealth end because of the "imba" duration huhu.

    ... ok I know you dont know much of anything. But not knowing your own class? Thats embarassing. Illusionary Membrane. Look it up.

    ?? 2 sec protection every 15 second is op uptime and give mesmer high survability? Mean you can't even proc it when you need.

    Ontop of the protection you get from PU. Its not op, but its more than thief can say for itself. And it auto-procs if you get hit below 75% thanks to metaphysical (Which also regens health), so you get it when you need it.

    Nop you can't stack boon with PU, it's one chance over 3 with 3 seconds duration mean before they put might and swiftness on it, it was possibile but not since this time.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF survivability with MESMER because it's way better on mesmer. Ho and don't miss the perma swiftness too hm.

    Ok, I guess you just dont know thief or Mesmer. Let me explain you this: Thief can run away better. So if he wants to avoid dying, he can do that, but then he still loses the fight by leaving. Mesmer however survives in a fight far better. Its not even a comparision. More and better active defenses, better baseline health.

    No, not really, thief run away from mes because they have better value rotating but if they want to duel, plasma alone make them win.

    In a 1v1, sure, consume plasma is a big deal. But now let them both face a Rev, or a Warrior, or a Weaver. Who do you think would die in all 3, and who do you think would have a good shot at winning all 3, pre-patch? Spoiler: The thief dies in all 3.

    Because thoses MU were in mesmer favor... Putting apart rev depending on the build, warrior can infinite PB against clones and weaver put condipressure + has condiclear.

    Even if theyre not favoured, Mesmer can survive against them and can win. Thief cannot.

    Yeah can in inverted commas. This thief build can't, like PU burst mesmer can't because it's +1 builds.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.
    Mean such an argument that I can use it too, pretty fun to do the answer I think I will get used to it.

    Im afraid you cant. I have already pointed out how many things you said simply contradict reality. You have yet to do the same.

    Apart that your reality isn't universal, if you want.

    Its not my reality, its just reality. And yes, its universal. Kind of in the name.

    Nop, sorry to ring you down to hard reality but it's not that simple.

    You wouldnt know reality if you stared in its face (literally, it seems). So youre not bringing anyone back to reality.

    I wont let other choose my reality, sorry.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    :D putting apart the fact that one is on a 2 sec CD while the other burn your evade yeah. Than one have high switness not the other and one has better superspeed uptime yeah in a parallel world it can work. Ho and you miss jump shot.

    I guess youre ignoring the heat aspect too. I guess its too inconvenient. But as for swiftness, were talking about running away here, arent we? Being able to cover 3 times the distance in a split-second is pretty hard for the other to catch up.

    I guess youre ignoring cripple/chill options.

    No, Im not, those actually get the Mesmer even further ahead. You havent forgotten that teleports arent affected by either, have you?

    Even if it's possible to run after him I will make it simpler for you : if blink is on cooldown (35 sec now) and they aren't on vertical point, the mes will never go out of the holo.

    "If the Mesmers mobility is on cooldown and the Engineers heat isnt too high, the Mesmer cant run away". Besides the fact that you engineered an unlikely and precise scenario just to not be wrong ... you still are wrong. Mesmer still outruns Engineer. Jaunt, remember?

    :) Good luck getting out of a Holo with 450 teleport if there isn't vertical spot.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    you dig your grave guy.

    No, not really. You just continue to refuse to face the undeniable facts. You keep repeating that lie even after I have debunked it over and over. You even have yet to explain why, if you could take everything in one build, we still had DPS builds with low survivability, bunker builds with high survivability, and support builds.

    You debunker nothing, you are persuaded that the world norms is around few powecreeped things.

    I have debunked everything. Even the whole "powercreeped" nonsense. I have debunked your false ideas of thief, of Mesmer, of the old meta, and everything around it.

    Funny that you think so, I'm already not convinced.

    Youre not big on reality. There is no convincing you. You could see 2 zerk high-damage builds synchronised dancing rather than fighting because they know neither of them will die, and you still try to argue theyre not unkillable in fair fights.

    Hopefully I don't see anyone dancing last mAt, (I didn't watch all match sure but at least in final and semi.).

    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    Nice lie you wrote there. "Anymore" implies that was the case before which as I have explained is objectively not true. Its also objectively not true because its only now, after the patch, that you can. Im not in any trouble. The game is, because the meta is garbage. And you refuse to accept it. Maybe its because your fantasy world distorted your perception fo the pre-patch world. Or maybe its because you like the super-low skill-level it has right now.

    For sure I didn't like prepatch overpowered noskill meta.

    Which only existed in your imagination. In reality it was a high-skill meta. The current meta is a noskill meta. Accept reality.

    Nop, you will accept the reality that it was a powercreeped meta and the current meta is a first step to a more healthy game.

    I cant accept a reality that isnt real. It wasnt a "powercrept meta", this is a "powerdipped meta". And its the first to a more unhealthy game. The meta has not been this unhealthy since Cele Ele. Its the biggest step backwards the game has had, and just reverting it would go a long way to improving the game. Or alternatively we up the damage by 20-30%.

    powerdipped is good after years of powercreep. I note that you preferred Mirage with 30 confusion and torment, and chronobunker meta.

    It's strange I already never see the meta in plat 2 isn't it ?

    You said that you didnt see the meta ever. Why you dont, frankly, I dont care.

    Because this meta didn't exists apart on few forum whine who extrapolate ?

    Ho and it's been a long time now that it's more build than gear that does the build. Mean you can possibly be tank with zerk gear on a full sustain build.

    Yeah, so much so that they removed certain amulets because of how much that gear option made people too tanky. Wait, no, that contradicts you. Oh right, youre wrong. Nope, theyre not tanks. As I said, theyre full Zerk, and they run very few defensive tools. Theyre not tanks. Theyre not sustain builds. Theyre squishy, its just being squishy is meaningless when damage doesnt exist.

    Will make it clear for you : a zerk signet mesmer will tank more than a paladin power mesmer.

    And I will make it clearer for you: A paladin signet mesmer will tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer. Besides, Holo, Ranger, etc., theyre nothing like signet mesmer.

    Considering it's all about active defense, no a paladin signet mesmer will not tank way more than a zerk signet mesmer at all.

    Man I forget how you say such ridiculously wrong things without hesitation. Its almost impressive how little you care about the truth. But no, what youre saying is wrong, as always.

    Nop, particulary when prepatch it was better to build pressure to survive than building on sustains things.

    Yes, thats why Prot Holo, Boonbeast and Weaver were some of the best builds, Weaver even being arguably one of the strongest classes pre-patch. Again, wrong as always.

    Another example : if you go more sustain traitline on mesmer prepatch, with taken inspiration for example, you will drop pressure and will get hit more, which will overall make you less sustainable than with DPS traitline.#

    Yeah except the most sustainable Mesmer was Chronobunker. So wrong, as always. Nah, the thing is that Mesmer wasnt good at being a bunker build anymore, thats all there is to it. But those who could play bunker, bunker was obviously way more survivable.

    Well, no... the most sustainable mesmer since they "rework" chrono is signet mesmer and it was way before the patch.

    But just to be sure, you would of course have 0 problem with Mesmer having all of its damage stripped and becoming exclusively a sidenoder who has to always wait for teammates to be able to do anything and otherwise just wasting time on the point, yes? You would have fun playing that class that you yourself said should not be able to do anything on its own, yes?

    Ho it was the case for mes pre-patch + on top of that, it can't even keep the node, pretty fun hu ?

    Yeah except it wasnt. Mesmer was a high damage burst class that specifically wasnt much of a sidenoder. Its weird how you play Mesmer but dont seem to know Mesmer.

    Yeah except it wasnt, Mesmer was kitting slow setup from condi auto clone and it's not because one player manage to win for the meme with a particular setup that it was (if there wasn't 2 thieves as bodygard it would never work.). Mean in this case he could be playing anything else (or a 3rd thief for example), the result would be the same.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    You ... really dont know your own class. kitten. No, it was always a condi burst build, its sustained damage is pretty poor. So wrong, as always. And he didnt carry, but he was instrumental in the victory.

    main damage from clone auto with one telegraphied pistol bleed is a condi burst ok lol. then you come saying 6k is peanut XD.

    The main damage wasnt from clone autos. But I guess trying to educate you is pointless.

    That's why they finish to kill it last patch...

    Yes. Because of its burst. And the fact that people didnt like that it could burst while being effectively untouchable.

    Already answered in this answer, a 4 sec, 50 hp burst isn't a burst if you are talking about what I think. Mean if during the 4 second you can't launch one defensive clic, I'm questionning how did you manage real bursts.

    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    You mean the leaderboards with a ton of Mirages in the top 100? With tons of Mesmer in every AT and MAT? Yeaaaaaah. Maybe you should learn a bit more before you talk.

    Ha the famous parallel world LB. It seem really a fun world, you should share the portal access to it.

    Its called "reality". Its perhaps not as nice as your fantasy world, but its the only true world. But go ahead, look back at some MATs, and you will find that you were once again wrong, as you always are.

    "Your" reality seems pretty boring.

    Its not "my" reality. Its just reality. Whether its boring or not, its the only true thing. Learn to live with it.

    Nop, I will not let random forum plebs decide for what I should play and find fun. We already know where did it lead.

    And yet you try to decide for others what they should play and find fun, including forcing sidenoders to play boring builds that cant kill each other, and telling them they should find being a waste of time fun. Besides, Im not telling you that. Youre free to dislike the old meta. But you cant say that it was less skilled, because it objectively was far more skilled. As I said its not my reality, its the reality.

    I don't decide anything, I'm defending that we aren't in a tank meta, that people die, and that it's not that boring, you know, discebilise extrapolation from some people like if it was the end of the world.

    Apart that contrary to before where it was the only way to play, now player can choose to play tank and rely on other or to play squishy. You know, I haven't the choice pre-patch.

    Oh ok you genuinely dont understand that bunkers and sidenoders arent the same thing. See, your critical lack of knowledge and understanding comes to a head here. Because there is no choice. You have to play squishy, but you still cant kill anyone solo. In fact, as always, the opposite of what you say is true. You had that choice pre-patch. We had stuff like Prot Holo, like bunker necro, boonbeast, and so on. You had the choice to be tanky, or high damage. Now, the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist, because of how low damage is. Everyone is tanky just by virtue of that. You no longer have the choice.

    Yeah one monochoice per class, because one build regroup most tools in one. That's was the problem.

    That was the problem in your imaginary version of the game that never existed. In reality, every class had multiple choices, even ones drastically different in their goal. Instead, right now is when you have 1 choice per class, other than for Rev and Necro. If youre Engineer, youre explosive holo. If youre ranger, youre Zerk Ranger. If youre guardian, youre firebrand. If youre Ele, youre Tempest. Fun.

    Don't act like if you played all class please, mesmer had realisticly one choice and one meme choice. Most other class were inexistant (mean seeing a ele prepatch was..) or always on the same build.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok I admit, your dishonesty and/or stupidity is breaking me. "You never saw an ele pre-patch". You mean like here, where most teams, including both final teams, use a weaver? That ele you never saw? Man you really just have no qualms about denying reality. Youre right, Mesmer only had 2 choices. Which is far better than the current 0. Unlike right now, where 2 classes arent played at all because theyre unviable, you saw every single class prepatch, because they were all viable. Every single class had multiple builds, unlike right now where only Rev or Necro have more than 1 build. And I am not going to repeat myself once more, so I tell you this: Accept reality, or accept that youre a fool.

    I don't wrote there isn't I wrote they were rare. Mean there were more mes in LB than ele.

    They werent rare at all. They were very common, as you can see in the MAT. But I guess reality is inconvenient.

    Again you only see the game from mAt perspective, mean mesmer mAT representation has nothing to do with LB representation for example.

    LB representation was no different. It pretty much always reflects MAT representation.

    Lol, not at all. You have synergy you can only having with 5 players, not with 2.

    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

    It doesnt. And the second part is as usual the complete opposite of the truth. You have to not be skilled at all on your rotation as opposed to before. You rollface, and thats the optimal damage rotation. Whereas pre-patch, if you facerolled, and I hate that I have to repeat this, YOU INSTANTLY LOST. Let me repeat that so it can finally get through to you. If you facerolled pre-patch, YOU INSTANTLY LOST.

    It does.

    It doesnt. End of story.

    No it does, you can write it as long as you want it will not change anything.

    I dont have to change anything. The objective truth is the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist. Thats why explosives holo, a glass cannon build in any other meta, is something you called a "tank build". And no matter how much you try to argue against it, this fact will not change.

    I don't consider a build who can be hit for 60% HP during bursting window as "tanky". I remembered tank scrapper who were way more tankier than this.

    Losing 60% hp is meaningless when they can just get it back. What matters is, "can the build be killed without being outnumbered". If no, its a tank build. Right now its no for everyone. So everyone is effectively a tank build.

    Yeah it's not my definition of tank, if the guy has to leave the point 1v1 to sustain back doing kitting (which was they were doing before patch anyway) it's not a tank you know.

    And no you don't instantly lost, you just spammed it until it work.

    Spoken like a true bad player who didnt understand the old meta. No, you instantly lost. If you spammed, it would never work. They use a single defensive skill to cover multiple offensive skills, then youre left with nothing to kill them, and they just kill you for free. But I guess you believing something this wrong, also explains why you thought everyone was always at 15% hp pre-patch. You kept playing horribly, spamming everything and dying as a result, and thought "well they must have had more tools", rather than admitting that you were just playing it all wrong.

    Thanks to powercreep you always had something to launch, mean spamfiesta existe since a long time.

    Except of course, you didnt, cooldowns existed pre-patch, and for the big hits were quite long. But at this point its clear you will just keep denying reality. Go ahead, have fun in your fantasy world. But dont be surprised when reality comes crashing in after this garbage meta makes the playerbase evaporate.

    Yep, it's beein age since we heard of spamfiesta.

    Not really. Spamfiesta is what we have right now. Pre-patch its been ages since we had a spam fiesta. I wanna say, early HoT, maybe?

    There is reason they gut quickness before the rework patch you know, because everyone rollface his toolbar under quickness because the more you spam, the more efficient it was.

    Of course I'm having fun. And don't worry for the playerbase, she already vanished way before the patch.

    Hey, youre free to like less skilled metas than more skilled ones. You just cant use that to try and deny that this meta is far less skilled. And nah, the playerbase was stagnant, but it was bigger. Its post-patch that it fell off a cliff.

    Yeah like youre free to like brainless high damage meta than the more rotational ones.
    you just can't impose you skill vision to everyone, mean come on I already arguing with bravan for ages about this.