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A Permanent solution for the Magic overload of Tyria

vier.1327vier.1327 Member ✭✭✭

Hi there,

Right now, the problem is that there are too much magic in the ecosystem but no depredator to consume it.

The Elder Dragons have played a vital role in this system for centuries, consuming the magic and making the cycles works.

The addition of Aurene and her power to consume all kinds of magic have give us hope, but using her as a toilet for magic would be, in my opinion, a poor writing solution.

So how can we stop this cycles?

Taking enough magic outside the system.

Do not call me crazy yet, because it is have been done before. The Seers crated the Bloodstones, solid red cristaks of magic out of the reach of the Elder Dragons.

Should we find out how the Seers created them, and cmake new ones?

Could this be a solution for the ED cycle problem?

Comments

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    Didnt the gods created the bloodstones

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    Btw if we can put alot of magic in a solid form like bloodstone it would be a hreat solution but creating the bloodstones started the guild wars and it was a horrible mess

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    Ppl will die and nations will fall
    Guilds like white mantle would be too powerful to stop
    Who ever gets these bloodstones can control the magic within and in the wrong hands it could be dangerous

  • vier.1327vier.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Btw if we can put alot of magic in a solid form like bloodstone it would be a hreat solution but creating the bloodstones started the guild wars and it was a horrible mess

    Guild Wars 3

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vier.1327 said:
    Hi there,

    Right now, the problem is that there are too much magic in the ecosystem but no depredator to consume it.

    The Elder Dragons have played a vital role in this system for centuries, consuming the magic and making the cycles works.

    That's a issue, but not the issue. To quote Taimi from Flashpoint:

    Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?
    [...]

    Taimi clearly considered the overflow of magic, and that even if we were to add one more Elder Dragon's magic into the world it wouldn't be an issue, however as shown in the hologram, The All (not magic) becomes instable and causes the world's death. This is again brought up in PoF:

    Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.
    Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Small_Victory_(Epilogue)#Dialogue

    Elder Dragon balance, not magic balance. The difference is very noteworthy. Also noteworthy that an Elder Dragon becoming too powerful threatens said balance as much as an Elder Dragon dying does.

    The addition of Aurene and her power to consume all kinds of magic have give us hope, but using her as a toilet for magic would be, in my opinion, a poor writing solution.

    It actually doesn't. It gave us only enough of a buffer to take out Kralkatorrik who was threatening the literal fabric of reality by consuming the Mists. And though there are minor hints in suggesting that she will become the One True Elder Dragon, well, all evidence points to the fact she cannot do such. Not only for the above Elder Dragon balance, but also the fact that more magic = more torment:

    Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.
    Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.
    Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.
    Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.
    Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_&_Champion

    Aurene's "immunity" to multiple types of magic comes from her bond with mortals, but it's implied the more magic she has, the more bonds she needs. It was also suggested in Guild Chat 85 that Aurene's immunity isn't permanent, further supporting the prior sentence.

    So how can we stop this cycles?

    Taking enough magic outside the system.

    Won't work.

    Taimi: Right! If he dies in the Mists, that's it. His magic is gone. And so is Tyria.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_End#At_the_Auditorium_2
    If the magic that is inside Kralkatorrik (thus not overloading the world) were to leave the system, then the world would still die.

    Do not call me crazy yet, because it is have been done before. The Seers crated the Bloodstones, solid red cristaks of magic out of the reach of the Elder Dragons.

    Should we find out how the Seers created them, and cmake new ones?

    Could this be a solution for the ED cycle problem?

    Already considered, and apparently not possible:

    We do not have the divine resources needed to imbue a new Bloodstone with enough magic to prevent Tyria from declining into a state of primitive adversity.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Study_in_Gold
    If the Forgotten didn't have the "divine resources", then neither does the Pact and nations of Central Tyria/Elona.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I feel like they hinted pretty heavily that Aurene being able to consume all Elder Dragon magics is not really feasible. In the livestream they kind of subtly mentioned that Aurene going crazy from it similar to Kralk could be a thing. So, even if the balance of number of dragons wasn't an issue, I think the magic still would be eventually.

    I'd imagine we'll get more on it as we get closer to Cantha, or while in Cantha.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    We simply will invent more and more machines that fuel and consume magic.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Didnt the gods created the bloodstones

    No, they just broke it.

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    We simply will invent more and more machines that fuel and consume magic.

    Has been stated in game by asuras that magic can't be destroyed. Using magic do not consumes it. It seems like magitech is powered by magic like a windmill is powered by wind.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    We simply will invent more and more machines that fuel and consume magic.

    Has been stated in game by asuras that magic can't be destroyed. Using magic do not consumes it. It seems like magitech is powered by magic like a windmill is powered by wind.

    Same as for Energie in our Universe. (Except that it hasn't stated by Asura, but by Physicians :) ) Still the conversion possibilities are enorm, and of course many out of our current technological reach, like transforming Energie to matter (we are already able to transform matter to Energie, which in the end means matter is nothing else than a Form of Energie)

    And applies to draggon's as well. If dragon's cosume magic, they don't destroy it, but accumulate and/or transform it.

    And btw.: windmills take energie from the wind, the wind loses speed/power by them. (Otherwise they would be Perpetuum mobiles :) )

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    What we've learned from Glint and the Forgotten Josso Essher's recordings is that the "Glint's Legacy" plan requires using multiple, benevolent entities to replace the Elder Dragons. We've learned that at least four main domains must be in active push/pull motion at all times to keep the Antikytheria mechanism of the All stable enough. Given dev comments and what Glint and the Forgotten envisioned, Aurene won't be able to hold all this magic herself and such will need fellow Elder Dragon replacements to balance the system.

    A good outcome would be having six benevolent balancers of magic or, depending on how much holding on to two magic domains per dragon affected their respective Torments, possibly even twelve balancers with one domain each, or less if Aurene holds on to at least two domains (so far we only know of one of her domains being Light). It also seems that Zhaitan and Mordremoth's "spheres" in the Antikytheria are dormant even after other dragons absorbed aspects of their magic, so it'd be beneficial to replace those two dragons ASAP so we can truly stabilize the system and give us some leeway with killing other dragons without worrying about destroying the world in the process.

    What the developers have told us since is that lesser dragons (hydras, skyscales, wyverns etc.) can't become Elder Dragons because their bodies apparently can't contain the massive amount of magic that Elder Dragons have consumed over the ages. So far the only viable candidates appear to be the bloodline of Elder Dragons (e.g. the Crystal Dragon family) and potentially the dragons' champions (implied with Tequatl the Sunless beginning to evolve after Zhaitan's death although we don't know if it had been able to become a neo-Zhaitan over time and take over the Death and Shadow domains if allowed to grow).

    We don't know if the saltspray dragons of Cantha should be considered lesser dragons (and thus unable to become Elder Dragon replacements) or if they could potentially be "high dragons" that we can use as replacements. They do have two distinctive differences compared to other lesser dragons: they can speak, and they have unique and powerful magical abilities (e.g. Albax granting good and bad luck to mortals, and Kuunavang granting celestial skills while famously stating "Let me give you a piece of advice. Never refuse a gift from someone who can swallow you whole."). While we don't yet know what has become of the saltsprays of Cantha since GW1, we'll likely encounter a few of them in some capacity and possibly learn if they would be viable for Glint's plan. The developers also left the Elonian saltspray Shiny's fate open as it was no longer in Ahdashim by the time of Qadim's invasion.

    Another notable thing that the Exalted learned is that the would-be replacement dragons should bond with mortals from an early age to avoid the tragedy of Vlast. While it's arguable that someone like Kuunavang might be a potential replacement as she clearly cared for mortals despite never being raised by them, she may be an exception to the rule and still had a fierce side. Shiny, however, was raised by the mortal Goren and the djinn of Ahdashim and thus bonded with other races as it likely learned some of the djinn's knowledge. It's thus possible that out of all the saltsprays Shiny might be our best bet for an Elder Dragon replacement (if saltsprays are revealed to be more than just "lesser" dragons) assuming that Shiny is benevolent enough and hasn't grown to be too selfish or pampered.

    It's still unclear whether Elder Dragon need to be replaced by dragons per se. It's possible that we could use artifacts like Shadowstone or otherwise find some useful magical rituals to allow other mortals the resistance to surviving vast amounts of magic entering their system, so an asura, charr etc. could become a balancer in the All. I imagine future storylines will explore this option as it seems unlikely we can just keep hatching and raising would-be replacements through the rest of the saga. It's going to be interesting to see how this magical problem will be tackled and if we ultimately end up with more than six balancers of the All in the new system once all is said and done. :)

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Didnt the gods created the bloodstones

    No the Seers did using some still unknown divine resources.
    The Gods discovered the bloodstone (singular) and horded it away along with other magical artifacts they could find while exploring Tyria.
    Then Abaddon used the bloodstone to give magic to the races of Tyria which lead to magic being abused and misused.
    The Gods then sealed magic away again using the blood of King Doric who sacrificed himself to do this which is how the stone got the name bloodstone, this is what finally caused Abaddon to finally revolt against the Gods.
    The bloodstone was then broken apart into 5 pieces.. becoming bloodstones (plural) and they were thrown into the largest volcano on the Ring of Fire islands now known as Abaddons Mouth, which later erupted and scattered them all over Tyria.

    Btw if we can put alot of magic in a solid form like bloodstone it would be a hreat solution but creating the bloodstones started the guild wars and it was a horrible mess

    If we could create them yes it might work but no living creature knows how to do that.
    Historian Tranton of the Durmond Priory has made some progress in reparing ancient Seer technology such as the Shadowstone so maybe one day he'll figure out a way to recreate a Bloodstone or at least fix a broken one.. but who knows.

    The bloodstone was around long before the Guild wars though, long before Humans existed on Tyria and even long before the Gods ever came to this world.. it's creation didn't start them.
    Abaddons decision to gift that magic to the world is what started many wars including the Guild wars.. because the magic was abused by mortal races.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    @Kossage.9072 said:
    What we've learned from Glint and the Forgotten Josso Essher's recordings is that the "Glint's Legacy" plan requires using multiple, benevolent entities to replace the Elder Dragons. We've learned that at least four main domains must be in active push/pull motion at all times to keep the Antikytheria mechanism of the All stable enough. Given dev comments and what Glint and the Forgotten envisioned, Aurene won't be able to hold all this magic herself and such will need fellow Elder Dragon replacements to balance the system.

    A good outcome would be having six benevolent balancers of magic or, depending on how much holding on to two magic domains per dragon affected their respective Torments, possibly even twelve balancers with one domain each, or less if Aurene holds on to at least two domains (so far we only know of one of her domains being Light). It also seems that Zhaitan and Mordremoth's "spheres" in the Antikytheria are dormant even after other dragons absorbed aspects of their magic, so it'd be beneficial to replace those two dragons ASAP so we can truly stabilize the system and give us some leeway with killing other dragons without worrying about destroying the world in the process.

    What the developers have told us since is that lesser dragons (hydras, skyscales, wyverns etc.) can't become Elder Dragons because their bodies apparently can't contain the massive amount of magic that Elder Dragons have consumed over the ages. So far the only viable candidates appear to be the bloodline of Elder Dragons (e.g. the Crystal Dragon family) and potentially the dragons' champions (implied with Tequatl the Sunless beginning to evolve after Zhaitan's death although we don't know if it had been able to become a neo-Zhaitan over time and take over the Death and Shadow domains if allowed to grow).

    We don't know if the saltspray dragons of Cantha should be considered lesser dragons (and thus unable to become Elder Dragon replacements) or if they could potentially be "high dragons" that we can use as replacements. They do have two distinctive differences compared to other lesser dragons: they can speak, and they have unique and powerful magical abilities (e.g. Albax granting good and bad luck to mortals, and Kuunavang granting celestial skills while famously stating "Let me give you a piece of advice. Never refuse a gift from someone who can swallow you whole."). While we don't yet know what has become of the saltsprays of Cantha since GW1, we'll likely encounter a few of them in some capacity and possibly learn if they would be viable for Glint's plan. The developers also left the Elonian saltspray Shiny's fate open as it was no longer in Ahdashim by the time of Qadim's invasion.

    Another notable thing that the Exalted learned is that the would-be replacement dragons should bond with mortals from an early age to avoid the tragedy of Vlast. While it's arguable that someone like Kuunavang might be a potential replacement as she clearly cared for mortals despite never being raised by them, she may be an exception to the rule and still had a fierce side. Shiny, however, was raised by the mortal Goren and the djinn of Ahdashim and thus bonded with other races as it likely learned some of the djinn's knowledge. It's thus possible that out of all the saltsprays Shiny might be our best bet for an Elder Dragon replacement (if saltsprays are revealed to be more than just "lesser" dragons) assuming that Shiny is benevolent enough and hasn't grown to be too selfish or pampered.

    It's still unclear whether Elder Dragon need to be replaced by dragons per se. It's possible that we could use artifacts like Shadowstone or otherwise find some useful magical rituals to allow other mortals the resistance to surviving vast amounts of magic entering their system, so an asura, charr etc. could become a balancer in the All. I imagine future storylines will explore this option as it seems unlikely we can just keep hatching and raising would-be replacements through the rest of the saga. It's going to be interesting to see how this magical problem will be tackled and if we ultimately end up with more than six balancers of the All in the new system once all is said and done. :)

    From the top of my head I can only think of 4 beings that could potentially take on the role of Elder Dragon.

    Albax and Kunnavang I think could be one of them however I don't think they can do it alone and become two Elder Dragons.
    I've put forward a theory on this quite a few times about this idea of these two individual dragons sharing the load and acting as one Elder Dragon.
    I really like this idea myself and it would be a pretty awesome concept to have 1 Elder Dragon be 2 seperate individual beings, it would certainly be an interesting change that's for sure.

    Another would be the Pale Tree, although whether she could take on this role or not I don't know..
    She's a purified Blighting Tree but still a Minion of Mordremoth so maybe she could take on the role but what that would do to her as a being is anyones guess.. but I personally love the idea of the giant flower on top of her budding up into a cocoon and transforming into a huge beautiful flower Elder Dragon.. that would be one hell of a sight.

    The 4th beings I can think of would be Aurines offspring.. but this relies on too many unknown factors right now along with being a bit of a cop out on the writing.
    The big question is, Can Elder Dragons reproduce?
    Personally I don't think they can.. my reasons for that is because we know that almost all Dragon Champions are either corrupted beings or hand crafted constructs created by their Elder Dragons.. Shatterer being one of the latter and I believe the same is true for Claws of Jormag, Shadow of the Dragon and Zhaitans undead Dragon Champions as well, they were all created not born or corrupted.. that I am sure of even if some of them havent been officially confirmed or denied as such.

    Glint is the only Dragon Champion we know of that is a decendent of Kralkatorrik and we also know that Kralkatorrik had a mother which leads me to strongly believe that Kralkatorrik birthed Glint's egg before he became and Elder Dragon and then later corrupted her as his Champion after he become corrupted by his own magic.

    If Elder Dragons can give birth then surely we would see many of their Scions flying around etc and there would be no need to make constructs like the Shatterer.. so I am absolutely sure that this is an ability Dragons loose once they become Elder Dragons and it makes sense considering the physical changes their bodies go through (just look at Aurine now compared to her younger fleshy forms) as well as the immortality they gain.. lacking the need to procreate entirely.

    So no I don't think Aurine can produce eggs and I kinda hope she cant just because it removes a easy solution to the problem.

    If the Pale Tree can take on a role and Albax and Kunnavang can take on another that still leaves 1 Elder Dragon with no replacement.. who knows maybe Jormag will just survive after all or maybe one of the others will.. or maybe we just might find another being in this world who can take on that last role.. who knows.

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    Commander becoming a elder dragon cuz he is very overpowered
    Killed 3 Elder dragons
    Killed a former god of war
    Returned from death (kitten)
    Saved tyria many times
    Plus a million other works... he deserves it... make him a elder dragon

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Albax and Kunnavang I think could be one of them however I don't think they can do it alone and become two Elder Dragons.
    I've put forward a theory on this quite a few times about this idea of these two individual dragons sharing the load and acting as one Elder Dragon.
    I really like this idea myself and it would be a pretty awesome concept to have 1 Elder Dragon be 2 seperate individual beings, it would certainly be an interesting change that's for sure.

    Kuunavang was placed on par to Glint by ANet, even after Glint was established as Kralkatorrik's champion. If Glint was capable of becoming an Elder Dragon then by all rights so should Kuunavang. Whether Albax, Shiny, or any other Saltspray Dragon can is a huge unknown though.

    My personal theory for the plot of the third expansion taking us to Cantha (which I'd say has a 10% chance of being accurate) is that Kuunavang had already become an Elder Dragon but has turned evil and is utilizing Cantha and that's why we go there, a plot that turns old allied (to GW1 vets) into enemies, and we'll need to use Albax to ascend into an Elder Dragon. If this holds close to true, I hope Kuunavang / Albax becomes an Elder Dragon of Stars and Night. We've kind of overdone the plant and especially death themes; Stars and Night would relate to Zhaitan's shadow domain, and Kuunavang's Celestial skills in GW1. Would create interesting aesthetics for minions too.

    Another would be the Pale Tree, although whether she could take on this role or not I don't know..
    She's a purified Blighting Tree but still a Minion of Mordremoth so maybe she could take on the role but what that would do to her as a being is anyones guess.. but I personally love the idea of the giant flower on top of her budding up into a cocoon and transforming into a huge beautiful flower Elder Dragon.. that would be one hell of a sight.

    The Complete Art of Guild Wars book has a curious line about the Pale Tree which makes her a more likely candidate than thought before. On page 158, it says "Before Mordremoth's onslaught, the world didn't know that the Pale Tree was once a sapling of the Elder Dragon. She was purified, somehow, and is remarkably benevolent." On page 161 and 162, it re-stablishes that Mordremoth's body was mostly plant, and his mind was housed in the Heart of Thorns tree.

    It's hard to say how much of the Complete Art of Guild Wars book's writing was done by lore writers at ANet, but it does seem to suggest the Pale Tree could replace Mordremoth as its scion.

    The big question is, Can Elder Dragons reproduce?
    Personally I don't think they can.. my reasons for that is because we know that almost all Dragon Champions are either corrupted beings or hand crafted constructs created by their Elder Dragons.. Shatterer being one of the latter and I believe the same is true for Claws of Jormag, Shadow of the Dragon and Zhaitans undead Dragon Champions as well, they were all created not born or corrupted.. that I am sure of even if some of them havent been officially confirmed or denied as such.

    Glint is the only Dragon Champion we know of that is a decendent of Kralkatorrik and we also know that Kralkatorrik had a mother which leads me to strongly believe that Kralkatorrik birthed Glint's egg before he became and Elder Dragon and then later corrupted her as his Champion after he become corrupted by his own magic.

    If Elder Dragons can give birth then surely we would see many of their Scions flying around etc and there would be no need to make constructs like the Shatterer.. so I am absolutely sure that this is an ability Dragons loose once they become Elder Dragons and it makes sense considering the physical changes their bodies go through (just look at Aurine now compared to her younger fleshy forms) as well as the immortality they gain.. lacking the need to procreate entirely.

    I wouldn't be so fast to proclaim Zhaitan's dragon champions as being created and not corrupted or born. I'd like to point out Bone Dragons - the strongest of which, Rotscale, Glint and Kuunavang were put on par to (again - even after Glint's revelation as dragon champion; but not before being called Kralk's scion). There's two curious things about Bone Dragons:

    1. Lore indicates they were living in recorded history (so not minions of Zhaitan), and obscure lore from 2005 interviews indicate that they once looked like your typical european dragons and not missing their hind legs.
    2. Curiously, Zhaitan's designs since the earliest shown version seem to always lack those hind legs like bone dragons did (for the old model, moste notable here and here). Given how many old interviews tend to get ignored, that 2005 interview of supreme obscurity (it was pure luck I stumbled upon it one day) could be retconned and the Bone Dragons intended to be related to Zhaitan.

    Similar for Jormag - it seems to be getting a redesign placing it similar to Drakkar's design in GW1, headwise. The head is also the design of GW1 Drakkar that ANet stated they maintained. In the meta, there's a random dialogue in which Jormag calls Drakkar a child, hinting that Drakkar might be Jormag's scion.

    And of course, there's the whole "Mordremoth's sapling" I mentioned before which implies parent/child and not just "corrupted seed" relationship.

    And with Glint being born before Kralkatorrik was an elder Dragon - I rather doubt that. While plausible, I think if she knew such she would have made mention of it. The oldest timeframe mention of Kralkatorrik is about that prophecy, and the way it's worded implies that Kralkatorrik was an Elder Dragon but not yet driven to animalistic rage by Torment.

    Now, one could say that even if all three of these cases mean scions of Elder Dragons that they were born before their parent was an Elder Dragon - but there's no real way to prove or disprove that.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Albax and Kunnavang I think could be one of them however I don't think they can do it alone and become two Elder Dragons.
    I've put forward a theory on this quite a few times about this idea of these two individual dragons sharing the load and acting as one Elder Dragon.
    I really like this idea myself and it would be a pretty awesome concept to have 1 Elder Dragon be 2 seperate individual beings, it would certainly be an interesting change that's for sure.

    Kuunavang was placed on par to Glint by ANet, even after Glint was established as Kralkatorrik's champion. If Glint was capable of becoming an Elder Dragon then by all rights so should Kuunavang. Whether Albax, Shiny, or any other Saltspray Dragon can is a huge unknown though.

    My personal theory for the plot of the third expansion taking us to Cantha (which I'd say has a 10% chance of being accurate) is that Kuunavang had already become an Elder Dragon but has turned evil and is utilizing Cantha and that's why we go there, a plot that turns old allied (to GW1 vets) into enemies, and we'll need to use Albax to ascend into an Elder Dragon. If this holds close to true, I hope Kuunavang / Albax becomes an Elder Dragon of Stars and Night. We've kind of overdone the plant and especially death themes; Stars and Night would relate to Zhaitan's shadow domain, and Kuunavang's Celestial skills in GW1. Would create interesting aesthetics for minions too.

    I was not aware any power comparrisons of Kunnavang and Glint existed but that's cool to know, and they sure could retcon the Saltsprey's origins and tie them to the Sea Dragon or something to push the story the way of your theory.

    I defintiely like the idea of a Dragon of Night and Stars that would be sweet, but Kuunavang as an evil Elder Dragon.. man as much a twist that would be i'd hate to have to fight her and see her fall like that it would make me sad haha
    I guess that's what you're going for though, it's a cool theory regardless ^^

    Another would be the Pale Tree, although whether she could take on this role or not I don't know..
    She's a purified Blighting Tree but still a Minion of Mordremoth so maybe she could take on the role but what that would do to her as a being is anyones guess.. but I personally love the idea of the giant flower on top of her budding up into a cocoon and transforming into a huge beautiful flower Elder Dragon.. that would be one hell of a sight.

    The Complete Art of Guild Wars book has a curious line about the Pale Tree which makes her a more likely candidate than thought before. On page 158, it says "Before Mordremoth's onslaught, the world didn't know that the Pale Tree was once a sapling of the Elder Dragon. She was purified, somehow, and is remarkably benevolent." On page 161 and 162, it re-stablishes that Mordremoth's body was mostly plant, and his mind was housed in the Heart of Thorns tree.

    It's hard to say how much of the Complete Art of Guild Wars book's writing was done by lore writers at ANet, but it does seem to suggest the Pale Tree could replace Mordremoth as its scion.

    I haven't read the complete art book myself but the Pale Tree being a possible candidate has existed for a while.
    I do like the idea myself specially if it allows her physical form to change and to spred like Mordremoth did.
    Imagine if they do make a Gw3 and the entire Magumma Jungle ends up becoming purfied and covered in in the Pale Trees influence.. it could become a wonderfully beautiful region of the world.

    The big question is, Can Elder Dragons reproduce?
    Personally I don't think they can.. my reasons for that is because we know that almost all Dragon Champions are either corrupted beings or hand crafted constructs created by their Elder Dragons.. Shatterer being one of the latter and I believe the same is true for Claws of Jormag, Shadow of the Dragon and Zhaitans undead Dragon Champions as well, they were all created not born or corrupted.. that I am sure of even if some of them havent been officially confirmed or denied as such.

    Glint is the only Dragon Champion we know of that is a decendent of Kralkatorrik and we also know that Kralkatorrik had a mother which leads me to strongly believe that Kralkatorrik birthed Glint's egg before he became and Elder Dragon and then later corrupted her as his Champion after he become corrupted by his own magic.

    If Elder Dragons can give birth then surely we would see many of their Scions flying around etc and there would be no need to make constructs like the Shatterer.. so I am absolutely sure that this is an ability Dragons loose once they become Elder Dragons and it makes sense considering the physical changes their bodies go through (just look at Aurine now compared to her younger fleshy forms) as well as the immortality they gain.. lacking the need to procreate entirely.

    I wouldn't be so fast to proclaim Zhaitan's dragon champions as being created and not corrupted or born. I'd like to point out Bone Dragons - the strongest of which, Rotscale, Glint and Kuunavang were put on par to (again - even after Glint's revelation as dragon champion; but not before being called Kralk's scion). There's two curious things about Bone Dragons:

    1. Lore indicates they were living in recorded history (so not minions of Zhaitan), and obscure lore from 2005 interviews indicate that they once looked like your typical european dragons and not missing their hind legs.
    2. Curiously, Zhaitan's designs since the earliest shown version seem to always lack those hind legs like bone dragons did (for the old model, moste notable here and here). Given how many old interviews tend to get ignored, that 2005 interview of supreme obscurity (it was pure luck I stumbled upon it one day) could be retconned and the Bone Dragons intended to be related to Zhaitan.

    A main problem with the possible Bone Dragon connection is their size.. but this largely could be due to the differences in games as we've seen many species get bigger and smaller between Gw1 and Gw2..
    But Bone Dragons would be a massive size difference if they were indeed of the same species as Zhatians Dragon Champions..

    They're also curiously only found in the Kryta region too which may suggest that they were risen there and not from Orr like a lot of the other undead are.
    Though Rotscale itself is apparently from the Shiverpeaks near the Frost Gate which is pretty curious, that information could suggest the Bone Dragons may all have once lived and died in the Shiverpeaks rather than Kryta and were reanimated and brought to Kryta by Vizier Khilbron.. if he is in deed responsible for their reanimation.. just speculating that he is considering he's the Lich responsible for the undead scourge on Kryta at the time.

    Zhaitan liked to ferry a lot of corpses down into Orr to be reanimted as well though so maybe his minions did dig up some old Bone Dragons and use them..
    But Zhaitan had a lot of these undead Dragons at his command so I don't know.. if he needed complete Bone Dragon corpses to make his Champions he would have needed to find a lot of them to do so.. and if they did all live in the Shiverpeaks, more so the north end of it then it would cause conflicts since the Risen never got that far north to my knowledge and it would have been very difficult for him to have obtained their corpses unless they lived all over the mountains or something but we just don't have that much info about them unfortunately.

    There are other minor cosmetic differences as well such as the wing design, Bone Dragons having 5 fingers in their wings, one on the elbow joint while Zhaitan's champions only have 3 and none of them on the elbow joint. Bone Dragons wing skin also extends from the elbow to the shoulder too and Zhaitans dragons does not.. but these could easily be negated as irrelevant design changes.. I freely admit that.

    There could be merit to a Bone Dragon connection, but I dunno.. I think it's more likely that Zhaitans champions are constructs like the Shatterer and the Shadow of the Dragon (Claws I believe to be as well though there is no info I can find to confirm they are) and made from various creatures and skeletons he could find around Orr and the surrounding areas like the Desolation.
    Maybe a lot of Giganticus Lupius bones were used as a skeletal frame.. slap some dragon wings on a Lupius and to be fair they don't look that much different to the Dragon champions.. Skull shape seems pretty close to me as does their mouth.
    Zhaitan is known for doing this kind of frankenstein thing as well.. Risen Abominations are one creature we do know are created from multiple corpses all slapped together into a whole new monstrosity.

    This is all pure speculation though of course, we have no idea what or where creatures like Tequatl came from.. although Anet did make a statement regarding Tequatl's evolution which said:
    "The magic used to create Tequatl is no longer being controlled by Zhaitan, but it still exists within Tequat"
    They did use the word "create" there which could suggest Zhaitans champions are some kind of constructs that were created literally like a Risen Abomination.. but it could also just be another way of saying re-animated and created as minions as well so I guess we just have to pick what we want to believe there until Anet gives us a solid answer on what these Dragon Champions are.. well cept for Shatterer and Kralkatorriks Dragon Champions, They are stated to be hand-forged and not corrupted beings so they are definitely some form of powerful construct.

    Similar for Jormag - it seems to be getting a redesign placing it similar to Drakkar's design in GW1, headwise. The head is also the design of GW1 Drakkar that ANet stated they maintained. In the meta, there's a random dialogue in which Jormag calls Drakkar a child, hinting that Drakkar might be Jormag's scion.

    And of course, there's the whole "Mordremoth's sapling" I mentioned before which implies parent/child and not just "corrupted seed" relationship.

    I've suspected there may be more to Jormag and Drakkar like that.. perhaps Drakkar was a Scion.. but Jormag could also be using words like that to manipulate and feign compassion as well.
    It didn't really seem all that bothered when we did kill Drakkar tbh.. which made me personally feel like Jormag didn't actually care about Drakkar and saw it as little more than a disposable minion.
    If he was her child you'd think Jormag would have been angry or something.. but it seemed so callous about it, like it didn't care at all.

    (I must also state that I have not played any of the recently released episode of living world.. so if there is Jormag dialogue in this episode I am compeltely unaware of it due to avoiding spoilers so.. I openly admit I am behind on any new lore introduced with this newest episode)

    I'm glad Jormag may end up looking like Drakkar in Gw1 though, I liked that design and im really hoping Jormag will end up being some kind of huge winged Ice Lindwurm.. that would look awesome and really fitting since Jormag is all about manipulation and deception which are traits long associated with snakes, so a Lindwurm design would be perfect for Jormag imo.

    And with Glint being born before Kralkatorrik was an elder Dragon - I rather doubt that. While plausible, I think if she knew such she would have made mention of it. The oldest timeframe mention of Kralkatorrik is about that prophecy, and the way it's worded implies that Kralkatorrik was an Elder Dragon but not yet driven to animalistic rage by Torment.

    Now, one could say that even if all three of these cases mean scions of Elder Dragons that they were born before their parent was an Elder Dragon - but there's no real way to prove or disprove that.

    Glints mind was fragmented if I recall when she was purified and she lost a lot of her memories prior to being freed from Kralkatorriks corruption so it's quite possible she doesn't remember much if anything about her earliest years or anything about her father before he became an Elder Dragon..
    The main reason I think there could be merit in this theory is because there is a strong suggestion if not straight up confirmation that Kralkatorrik had a mother.
    That begs questions like..
    Was she an Elder Dragon?..
    Was Kralkatorrik born an Elder Dragon or did he become one?..
    How did Kralkatorrik become and Elder Dragon?..
    If Kralkatorrik was born an Elder Dragon why wasn't Glint?..
    Did the other Elder Dragons become Elders or were they born Elders?..
    How long have these dragons even been alive?..

    It's quite annoying that there is absolutely no way we can answer those questions XD
    I really really want to know more about these dragons backstories and how they became the Elder Dragons we know them as now.
    As you said though we just don't have any way to prove anything or disprove anything about this particular subject, total void of information about it atm but I really hope Anet fill this gap one day, they can't tease us with the idea of Elder Dragons having mothers and not give us anything on that XD

    All we can do is speculate though until we get something to go on lol
    Sorry this got long >.< enjoy talking lore and theories with you man even when I got bad ones or completely overlook some stuff haha.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    A main problem with the possible Bone Dragon connection is their size.. but this largely could be due to the differences in games as we've seen many species get bigger and smaller between Gw1 and Gw2..
    But Bone Dragons would be a massive size difference if they were indeed of the same species as Zhatians Dragon Champions..

    Well, I'm pretty sure they're the same size (or close to) that of Glint and Vlast. Which would put them on par to Drakkar and Elder Aurene.

    They're also curiously only found in the Kryta region too which may suggest that they were risen there and not from Orr like a lot of the other undead are.
    Though Rotscale itself is apparently from the Shiverpeaks near the Frost Gate which is pretty curious, that information could suggest the Bone Dragons may all have once lived and died in the Shiverpeaks rather than Kryta and were reanimated and brought to Kryta by Vizier Khilbron.. if he is in deed responsible for their reanimation.. just speculating that he is considering he's the Lich responsible for the undead scourge on Kryta at the time.

    Well, it isn't like we visit Orr to see them there. There aren't many Bone Dragons, and they're all accompanied by the Orrian undead army in GW1, raised by Khilbron. I do believe it is stated the Bone Dragons come from Orr specifically, like the rest of the army, but I'd have to dig for that reference. The sole exception is Rotscale, raised by Stone Summit necromancers in the Shiverpeaks - not sure about "near the Frost Gate" since it was an E3 only event back in 2003 and only kept loosely canon through the Scribe articles in later years.

    There are other minor cosmetic differences as well such as the wing design, Bone Dragons having 5 fingers in their wings, one on the elbow joint while Zhaitan's champions only have 3 and none of them on the elbow joint. Bone Dragons wing skin also extends from the elbow to the shoulder too and Zhaitans dragons does not.. but these could easily be negated as irrelevant design changes.. I freely admit that.

    Given the dramatic changes in the hydras appearance... I never hold huge stock on minor aesthetical changes.

    Maybe a lot of Giganticus Lupius bones were used as a skeletal frame.. slap some dragon wings on a Lupius and to be fair they don't look that much different to the Dragon champions.. Skull shape seems pretty close to me as does their mouth.

    That's an interesting thing to note. I had always dismissed the frankenstein approach that Abominations get because of their sheer size. I do think the dragons are larger than the Giganticus Lupicus though, but that minion is small in comparison to the bones of GW1 or even those seen in The Desolation.

    I think the biggest contender against "frankensteining" is that with more magic, minions tend to get more draconic - the Risen Knights being a prime example, established in the Art of Guild Wars 2 book as being warped by Zhaitan's magic into that "human with dragon wings and second dragon head" appearance.

    Similar reasoning makes me think that the Claw of Jormag may be a literal dragon skeleton encased in ice given draconian form - not a draconic skeleton (given how the wings are, at least), but its legs are 100% bone appearance, and icebrood are known to "devolve" until just ice and bones (such as with the icebrood colossus model).

    I've suspected there may be more to Jormag and Drakkar like that.. perhaps Drakkar was a Scion.. but Jormag could also be using words like that to manipulate and feign compassion as well.
    It didn't really seem all that bothered when we did kill Drakkar tbh.. which made me personally feel like Jormag didn't actually care about Drakkar and saw it as little more than a disposable minion.
    If he was her child you'd think Jormag would have been angry or something.. but it seemed so callous about it, like it didn't care at all.

    Jormag has been a confusing one throughout. At times, Jormag seems kind to the PC and even warns them of uncoming icebrood attacks in the Storms of Winter meta ("It's coming..." followed by Claw of Jormag destroying the shrines; "kill them" as you need to slaughter icebrood). It has been established that the Sons of Svanir hunt down icebrood and Jormag doesn't care, that it sees the death of icebrood by others as proof of said others' worth and merit - either to grant "blessings" or to leave them be (per the Frost Portal hero challenge in Drakkar Spurs). Taking from these two, perhaps Jormag is pragmatic to the point of seeing their own child's death a worthwhile sacrifice if it meant being able to get closer to the Commander.

    (I must also state that I have not played any of the recently released episode of living world.. so if there is Jormag dialogue in this episode I am compeltely unaware of it due to avoiding spoilers so.. I openly admit I am behind on any new lore introduced with this newest episode)

    No direct Jormag interaction. You're good in the scope of this discussion, I think.

    I'm glad Jormag may end up looking like Drakkar in Gw1 though, I liked that design and im really hoping Jormag will end up being some kind of huge winged Ice Lindwurm.. that would look awesome and really fitting since Jormag is all about manipulation and deception which are traits long associated with snakes, so a Lindwurm design would be perfect for Jormag imo.

    My current leading expectation is a similar body structure to the Wyvern Roost Scepter. Forearms and wings as the only limbs. Give it GW1 Drakkar's head more-or-less, and ice. Then it would fit all depictions of Jormag thus far - the footsteps and wing shadows in the norn intro, the serpent references, etc.

    Glints mind was fragmented if I recall when she was purified and she lost a lot of her memories prior to being freed from Kralkatorriks corruption so it's quite possible she doesn't remember much if anything about her earliest years or anything about her father before he became an Elder Dragon..
    The main reason I think there could be merit in this theory is because there is a strong suggestion if not straight up confirmation that Kralkatorrik had a mother.
    That begs questions like..
    Was she an Elder Dragon?..
    Was Kralkatorrik born an Elder Dragon or did he become one?..
    How did Kralkatorrik become and Elder Dragon?..
    If Kralkatorrik was born an Elder Dragon why wasn't Glint?..
    Did the other Elder Dragons become Elders or were they born Elders?..
    How long have these dragons even been alive?..

    The main reason why I don't think Glint was born before Kralkatorrik was an Elder Dragon is that, through Jotun records, we know that the current Six Elder Dragons were living as Elder Dragons for at least 3 cycles (including this one):

    In jotun stela writings, we've found references to a sextet of "swallowers" who are said to have consumed the world several times over.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Caterin
    Depending on whether these stela writings were pre or post the previous cycle, this would indicate the jotun had - at the height of their reign - knowledge of at least 2 previous dragonrises. Though the word "several" implies a bit more than that.

    If every dragon cycle truly is every 10,000 years (despite the menacations of the Bloodstone by the Seers and later Abaddon - that and other lines lead me to think the gap since the last cycle wasn't 10,000 years but 3,000 thus making a "normal gap" to be 7,000 years and historians/ANet are mixing two separate dragonrises) then the current set of Elder Dragons are at least 30,000 years old. If the "several" word is meant to mean more than "a few" as it should, then that could place the current ones as being 50,000 to 100,000 years old.

    But this is sadly the only line about any events prior to 10,000 BE.

    Luckily, ANet did say in Guild Chat 85 that we will be returning to the topic of Kralkatorrik's mother. Sadly it's just a seeded plot thread for "years down the road".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    A main problem with the possible Bone Dragon connection is their size.. but this largely could be due to the differences in games as we've seen many species get bigger and smaller between Gw1 and Gw2..
    But Bone Dragons would be a massive size difference if they were indeed of the same species as Zhatians Dragon Champions..

    Well, I'm pretty sure they're the same size (or close to) that of Glint and Vlast. Which would put them on par to Drakkar and Elder Aurene.

    Yeah that's about the biggest I would estimate them to be if they were in Gw2.. big, but a fair bit smaller than Dragon Champions.
    It's kind of a shame they got sidelined tbh but with Zhaitan and his Champions being the main antagonist of the core game it's understandable..

    They're also curiously only found in the Kryta region too which may suggest that they were risen there and not from Orr like a lot of the other undead are.
    Though Rotscale itself is apparently from the Shiverpeaks near the Frost Gate which is pretty curious, that information could suggest the Bone Dragons may all have once lived and died in the Shiverpeaks rather than Kryta and were reanimated and brought to Kryta by Vizier Khilbron.. if he is in deed responsible for their reanimation.. just speculating that he is considering he's the Lich responsible for the undead scourge on Kryta at the time.

    Well, it isn't like we visit Orr to see them there. There aren't many Bone Dragons, and they're all accompanied by the Orrian undead army in GW1, raised by Khilbron. I do believe it is stated the Bone Dragons come from Orr specifically, like the rest of the army, but I'd have to dig for that reference. The sole exception is Rotscale, raised by Stone Summit necromancers in the Shiverpeaks - not sure about "near the Frost Gate" since it was an E3 only event back in 2003 and only kept loosely canon through the Scribe articles in later years.

    When I was double checking my info I didn't see anything linking the Bone Dragons to Orr, Rotscale was the only one that had a location origin that I could find.
    The reference to the Frost Gate was on the Gw1 wiki page for Rotscale, which make sense if the Stone Summit were the ones to raise him.
    If Stone Summit Necromancers could pull that off though you would think a Lich as powerful as Joko would be able to as well, if they did come from Orr you'd think someone like Joko would have raised a few to help him take over Elona.

    There are other minor cosmetic differences as well such as the wing design, Bone Dragons having 5 fingers in their wings, one on the elbow joint while Zhaitan's champions only have 3 and none of them on the elbow joint. Bone Dragons wing skin also extends from the elbow to the shoulder too and Zhaitans dragons does not.. but these could easily be negated as irrelevant design changes.. I freely admit that.

    Given the dramatic changes in the hydras appearance... I never hold huge stock on minor aesthetical changes.

    Yeah I didn't put much stock in it myself either.

    Maybe a lot of Giganticus Lupius bones were used as a skeletal frame.. slap some dragon wings on a Lupius and to be fair they don't look that much different to the Dragon champions.. Skull shape seems pretty close to me as does their mouth.

    That's an interesting thing to note. I had always dismissed the frankenstein approach that Abominations get because of their sheer size. I do think the dragons are larger than the Giganticus Lupicus though, but that minion is small in comparison to the bones of GW1 or even those seen in The Desolation.

    That was my thought too when I first thought of Lupi's as a frame.. but then I remembered the size of the bones in PoF.. much bigger than the risen Lupi in Arah.
    I wonder if the theory is accurate the one in Arah might have avoided the Dragon transformation because it was too small, could explain why it's the only one Zhaitan had in his army.. the rest he made into Dragons.
    Makes sense to me but it's just specualtion.

    I think the biggest contender against "frankensteining" is that with more magic, minions tend to get more draconic - the Risen Knights being a prime example, established in the Art of Guild Wars 2 book as being warped by Zhaitan's magic into that "human with dragon wings and second dragon head" appearance.

    Similar reasoning makes me think that the Claw of Jormag may be a literal dragon skeleton encased in ice given draconian form - not a draconic skeleton (given how the wings are, at least), but its legs are 100% bone appearance, and icebrood are known to "devolve" until just ice and bones (such as with the icebrood colossus model).

    I didn't even think of the Risen Knights, that's a good point.. Wonder if they would have become even more draconic looking if they had gained more magic.. loosing their human traits almost entirely.. replaced by dragon ones.
    Zhaitans champions applying the same theory, could just be heavily mutated Lupi that have developed dragon like features.
    Though looking at this concept art.. it does kinda look like Dragon Knights are small Dragon corpse's with a human torso chained/fused onto them so they can use weapons..
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Risen_Dragon_Knight_concept_art.jpg
    Then again they look quite different in game.. more human with dragon parts slapped on, the feet however are like dragon feet so it does appear to be more a mutation as you said rather than a frankensteining of human and dragon parts as the concept art looks more like.

    I've suspected there may be more to Jormag and Drakkar like that.. perhaps Drakkar was a Scion.. but Jormag could also be using words like that to manipulate and feign compassion as well.
    It didn't really seem all that bothered when we did kill Drakkar tbh.. which made me personally feel like Jormag didn't actually care about Drakkar and saw it as little more than a disposable minion.
    If he was her child you'd think Jormag would have been angry or something.. but it seemed so callous about it, like it didn't care at all.

    Jormag has been a confusing one throughout. At times, Jormag seems kind to the PC and even warns them of uncoming icebrood attacks in the Storms of Winter meta ("It's coming..." followed by Claw of Jormag destroying the shrines; "kill them" as you need to slaughter icebrood). It has been established that the Sons of Svanir hunt down icebrood and Jormag doesn't care, that it sees the death of icebrood by others as proof of said others' worth and merit - either to grant "blessings" or to leave them be (per the Frost Portal hero challenge in Drakkar Spurs). Taking from these two, perhaps Jormag is pragmatic to the point of seeing their own child's death a worthwhile sacrifice if it meant being able to get closer to the Commander.

    We do seem to be it's main focus outside of Aurine.. It's probably because of Aurine that Jormag want's us to listen so badly, turn us and use us to seduce her.
    I'm very much enjoying how Jormag has been done so far, looking forward to seeing where things go there.
    Definitely a stand out Dragon so far ^^ makes me hyped to see what we'll get with the last two as well.

    (I must also state that I have not played any of the recently released episode of living world.. so if there is Jormag dialogue in this episode I am compeltely unaware of it due to avoiding spoilers so.. I openly admit I am behind on any new lore introduced with this newest episode)

    No direct Jormag interaction. You're good in the scope of this discussion, I think.

    Awesome, thanks for the heads up on that ^^

    I'm glad Jormag may end up looking like Drakkar in Gw1 though, I liked that design and im really hoping Jormag will end up being some kind of huge winged Ice Lindwurm.. that would look awesome and really fitting since Jormag is all about manipulation and deception which are traits long associated with snakes, so a Lindwurm design would be perfect for Jormag imo.

    My current leading expectation is a similar body structure to the Wyvern Roost Scepter. Forearms and wings as the only limbs. Give it GW1 Drakkar's head more-or-less, and ice. Then it would fit all depictions of Jormag thus far - the footsteps and wing shadows in the norn intro, the serpent references, etc.

    Yeah :D that's exactly what I had in mind too, ahh I can't wait to see Jormag in game ^^
    Really excited for that face to face moment.

    Glints mind was fragmented if I recall when she was purified and she lost a lot of her memories prior to being freed from Kralkatorriks corruption so it's quite possible she doesn't remember much if anything about her earliest years or anything about her father before he became an Elder Dragon..
    The main reason I think there could be merit in this theory is because there is a strong suggestion if not straight up confirmation that Kralkatorrik had a mother.
    That begs questions like..
    Was she an Elder Dragon?..
    Was Kralkatorrik born an Elder Dragon or did he become one?..
    How did Kralkatorrik become and Elder Dragon?..
    If Kralkatorrik was born an Elder Dragon why wasn't Glint?..
    Did the other Elder Dragons become Elders or were they born Elders?..
    How long have these dragons even been alive?..

    The main reason why I don't think Glint was born before Kralkatorrik was an Elder Dragon is that, through Jotun records, we know that the current Six Elder Dragons were living as Elder Dragons for at least 3 cycles (including this one):

    In jotun stela writings, we've found references to a sextet of "swallowers" who are said to have consumed the world several times over.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Caterin
    Depending on whether these stela writings were pre or post the previous cycle, this would indicate the jotun had - at the height of their reign - knowledge of at least 2 previous dragonrises. Though the word "several" implies a bit more than that.

    If every dragon cycle truly is every 10,000 years (despite the menacations of the Bloodstone by the Seers and later Abaddon - that and other lines lead me to think the gap since the last cycle wasn't 10,000 years but 3,000 thus making a "normal gap" to be 7,000 years and historians/ANet are mixing two separate dragonrises) then the current set of Elder Dragons are at least 30,000 years old. If the "several" word is meant to mean more than "a few" as it should, then that could place the current ones as being 50,000 to 100,000 years old.

    But this is sadly the only line about any events prior to 10,000 BE.

    Luckily, ANet did say in Guild Chat 85 that we will be returning to the topic of Kralkatorrik's mother. Sadly it's just a seeded plot thread for "years down the road".

    Yeah like they did with Aurines Egg huh XD
    They know how to test our patience i'll give them that Ha!

    I expected the existing Dragons were a good few cycles old at least so 50,000-100,000 years doesn't seem to farfetched though it would make Glint a lot more ancient than she appeared to be if she was indeed born prior to Kralk becoming an Elder Dragon.
    Unfortunately there's almost nothing going back far enough to know anything about the world back then.. I doubt even Tyria's most ancient living races existed that far back.
    I look forward to revisiting the mother topic down the road, hopefully Anet will have some good lore to explain where these dragons came from and the world that they lived in back then.
    Also interested to know if their predecessors were benevolent dragons or destroyers that were eventually overthrown and replaced in a continuing cycle.. a cycle we just might be continuing ourselves, who knows ^^

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    I am a Glint's prophecy apostate, I don't think we will see new Elder dragons. Obviously, there are examples in game that support Glint's plan but there are also examples that erode it. Most notably, the prospect offered by Jormag of ending the dragon cycle. One of his hidden whispers is really interesting.

    "A pain I can shield from; a pain I will gladly take. Your suffering is needless! Please, let me help you!
    Our whole world suffers memories of cycles past. Nothing lives. All is devoured by fire (and death?).
    We can repair what is broken. Mend the wounds of this world. Numb the pain with ice and frost! Together, we can save what is left.
    I will help to protect it, to defend it. Because I understand: for the first time in a millennium, we can do what no others could. We can put this world back together.
    I understand what it is you want. It is the same thing I want. It is what we all want.
    (Cycles that?) have come and gone. Storms that ebb and flow. The very movement of this world, this pain. A world free of strife. Free of uncertainty.
    A world enveloped with silent loss and death.
    We can change that. Together we have the (power to stop?) the cycle. To heal Tyria.
    You have touched so much. More than could (be reached before?). I (?) all of your achievements. For it is not the whole (?) the memory of war."

    ccatz
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/g7uq2v/hidden_whisper_of_jormag/

    Jormag may be referencing a time before the All was divided into Six spheres. High dragons may have crafted the All or distorted the All by dividing it into six spheres so they could harness more magic. Elder dragons may be artificially produced Eldritch beings. The danger of unclaimed magic or magic imbalances explained by Taimi could be a symptom of a broken system that is also inherently broken or unnatural. If the natural form of All magic is analogous to an ocean of water, the Elder dragons forced all magic to into a system of artificial lakes, rivers, dams and locks. A return to the natural state would be extremely dangerous and have the same effects Tiami discovered. Aurene may be the vehicle needed for returning all magic to its natural, unclaimed state. It is a familiar fantasy plot that wouldn't require Aurene's death and could resolve the power fantasy without creating a Kormir effect.-

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah that's about the biggest I would estimate them to be if they were in Gw2.. big, but a fair bit smaller than Dragon Champions.

    Well, my line of thought with bringing up Glint, Vlast, Drakkar, and Elder Aurene is basically: Size isn't necessary for being a draconian dragon champion (this is of course ignoring all the other dragon champs like wyverns which would be smaller). Come to think of it, The Great Destroyer is about the size of bone dragons too.

    Of course, there's also the fact that everything in GW1 is generally smaller than in GW2. Except Drakkar. GW1 Drakkar is bigger than GW2 Drakkar. GW1 Drakkar, GW1 Primordus, and The Shatterer/Claw of Jormag/etc. are all the same approximate size. Which is a big reason why they decided mid-development to change the creature in Drakkar Lake from being Jormag to being a mere dragon champion.

    That was my thought too when I first thought of Lupi's as a frame.. but then I remembered the size of the bones in PoF.. much bigger than the risen Lupi in Arah.
    I wonder if the theory is accurate the one in Arah might have avoided the Dragon transformation because it was too small, could explain why it's the only one Zhaitan had in his army.. the rest he made into Dragons.
    Makes sense to me but it's just specualtion.

    Well, we were told in interviews that the Giganticus Lupicus we fought was from the previous dragonrise. If the Orrian History Scrolls hold true, then Balthazar and Melandru cleaned out Orr when they arrived - this could have wiped out any number of last-gen risen.

    What's interesting is that the G-Lupe being the only known minion from the last gen for Zhaitan, and a champion at that, puts it as possibly being in the same "herald" role as Glint, Drakkar, and the Great Destroyer. This has two interesting notes: 1) they're all smaller than other oversized dragon champions, 2) that makes the G-Lupe the only non-draconic herald.

    I didn't even think of the Risen Knights, that's a good point.. Wonder if they would have become even more draconic looking if they had gained more magic.. loosing their human traits almost entirely.. replaced by dragon ones.
    Zhaitans champions applying the same theory, could just be heavily mutated Lupi that have developed dragon like features.
    Though looking at this concept art.. it does kinda look like Dragon Knights are small Dragon corpse's with a human torso chained/fused onto them so they can use weapons..
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Risen_Dragon_Knight_concept_art.jpg
    Then again they look quite different in game.. more human with dragon parts slapped on, the feet however are like dragon feet so it does appear to be more a mutation as you said rather than a frankensteining of human and dragon parts as the concept art looks more like.

    There was several concept art by Kekai Kotaki that was warping flesh into draconian shape, such as this one and this one.

    But for more in-game examples, the Mouth of Zhaitan is similarly heavily warped - it's a giant humanoid, but has small arms grasping at its head/collar, and of course the giant mouth in the belly. Doesn't look sewn together like Abominations.

    Yeah like they did with Aurines Egg huh XD
    They know how to test our patience i'll give them that Ha!

    Yeah. ANet seems to enjoy running two or three arcs simultaneously since Season 1.

    For Season 1, we had the Ellen Kiel arc and the Scarlet arc; for Season 2 and HoT, we had the Mordremoth Arc and Aurene arc; in Season 3, we had the White Mantle arc, Balthazar arc, and Aurene arc; in PoF and S4 we had the Joko arc, Balthazar arc, and Aurene arc; now in S5, we have Jormag and Bangar arcs... with possibly something else being hinted behind the scenes that we don't yet know enough to know for sure of.

    Ironically, since HoT began, they've been having issues including any more of the cast than 4 characters, making it hard to have all of Dragon's Watch around at once.

    I expected the existing Dragons were a good few cycles old at least so 50,000-100,000 years doesn't seem to farfetched though it would make Glint a lot more ancient than she appeared to be if she was indeed born prior to Kralk becoming an Elder Dragon.
    Unfortunately there's almost nothing going back far enough to know anything about the world back then.. I doubt even Tyria's most ancient living races existed that far back.

    Glint's apparent age if she was from pre-ED Kralk is why I'm very doubtful of that theory. Could she really have survived so many dragonrises? I think it's more likely she's from pre-Torment ED Kralk, but not pre-ED Kralk. This of course depends on just how long it takes for Torment to build up in an Elder Dragon.

    Even if we assume that Kralkatorrik is the youngest of the current Elder Dragons (not implausible - Mordremoth might've been "killed" before, as it's been suggested by devs that the Mouth of Mordremoth is not his original body and he had to do a body swap, so possible other ED were killed and replaced too, and the jotun never knew / the records didn't last), that would still put Glint to be 30,000 years or older herself if she was born before Kralkatorrik became an Elder Dragon. Even with only fragmented memories from before 3,000 years ago, to only remember Kralkatorrik as an Elder Dragon seems weird to me. But more than that, surviving so long while being refused to gain enough power by Kralkatorrik's will due to enslavement seems even weirder.

    To me, rather than thinking "the Elder Dragons can't have children", it is more likely to me that "Elder Dragons don't want to have children because they pose potential risks", given that scions seem to be the best candidates to replace Elder Dragons. Even with corrupting them, it's plausible.

    And mentioning Mordremoth's body-swapping reminded me of an other theory about Mordremoth's potential children: the Spitfires are called "Lesser Mordremoth Head"s by the 3d artist, and their appearance is remarkably similar to the Mouth of Mordremoth, which led me to think that they may be corrupted scions of the Mouth's body, and/or grown "replacements" for when the Mouth dies (the DS meta does seem to occur three times canonically - rather than repairing the body, perhaps Mordremoth merely took a Spitfire and "grew it" and remolded it with magic?).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    -snip transcription-

    Jormag may be referencing a time before the All was divided into Six spheres. High dragons may have crafted the All or distorted the All by dividing it into six spheres so they could harness more magic. Elder dragons may be artificially produced Eldritch beings. The danger of unclaimed magic or magic imbalances explained by Taimi could be a symptom of a broken system that is also inherently broken or unnatural. If the natural form of All magic is analogous to an ocean of water, the Elder dragons forced all magic to into a system of artificial lakes, rivers, dams and locks. A return to the natural state would be extremely dangerous and have the same effects Tiami discovered. Aurene may be the vehicle needed for returning all magic to its natural, unclaimed state. It is a familiar fantasy plot that wouldn't require Aurene's death and could resolve the power fantasy without creating a Kormir effect.-

    I didn't know people had figured out what it said! Nice read. Really paints Jormag even more as a curious character with uncertain goals. I'm loving it.

    As to your theory, an interesting one. But also one that seems to counter our current evidence. If the world needs Elder Dragons - and a certain number of them - then what existed before them if they were artificially produced? The All itself is the functionality of the world; that's not something you can create unless you're also creating the world. This implies to me that whoever created the world (be it The Mists, some gods, Koda, or what-have-you) made the original sphere-holders as well.

    Not sure how Aurene could return all magic to it's theoretical natural state, except for doing what I've seen so many in the lore forum say will be a boring plot: making her the One True Elder Dragon. (Which I agree would indeed be boring, and counteractive to established lore).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I didn't know people had figured out what it said! Nice read. Really paints Jormag even more as a curious character with uncertain goals. I'm loving it.

    Honestly, this just makes Jormag seem more of like what we already knew it was, a being that is really good at telling people what they want to hear in order to manipulate them.

    Jormag's idea is how to save the world is as it says "Ice fortifies. Ice protects" which is alluded to in this translation with the line

    Numb the pain with ice and frost!

    It will save the world alright, but it will do so by making it a giant ice ball where everything is frozen solid. Its no different then how Zhaitan's minions talked about wanting to death the pain and separation of death.... by making everyone part of Zhaitan's undead army.

    The game has made it pretty clear at this point, the Dragons, and their minions, are liars, don't listen to them, don't consider anything they say, don't believe for a moment anything they say is true, its all a ruse. All they want is everything for themselves.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah that's about the biggest I would estimate them to be if they were in Gw2.. big, but a fair bit smaller than Dragon Champions.

    Well, my line of thought with bringing up Glint, Vlast, Drakkar, and Elder Aurene is basically: Size isn't necessary for being a draconian dragon champion (this is of course ignoring all the other dragon champs like wyverns which would be smaller). Come to think of it, The Great Destroyer is about the size of bone dragons too.

    Yeah that's partly why im not fully sold on the possibility of Bone Dragons being the same or linked to Zhaitans champions.
    If they were related and size didn't matter for a Champion than Bone Dragon Champions in theory would be smaller than the Dragons Zhaitan uses/creates..
    This could very well just be an oversight on Anets part or a deliberate design change to make them bigger and more imposing.. which would make sense since huge world bosses were quite a big promotion for the game if I remember correctly.

    Without any confirmation that Zhaitans Dragons are related to Bone Dragons we can only speculate where and what Zhaitans Champions came from.
    Shatterer being the only one confirmed to be a hand crafted construct does lead me to think that the others are too though.. considering how powerful these Elder Dragons are even before the world being imbalanced by their deaths, I would assume they all have similar abilities to create giant minons like that.

    While Gw2's minions mechanically do not work the same way as in Gw1.. I think the Gw1's minions work more lore appropriately by requiring a corpse or more specifically dead materials.
    Gw1 minions are considered constructs as well and look nothing like the corpses they are created from.. like twisted horrors instead which might be an intentional thing Necromancers do to make them more horrifying or define/enchance their abilities..
    Hellhounds in Gw1 are another construct creature too, not a reanimated creature like Bone Dragons or Orrian undead.

    Point of mentioning that is there does seem to be a difference between reanimating the dead and creating constructs from dead material, but also to note that beings who have an affinity for Necromancy can seem to do both of those things.. even us lowely mortals can construct a mass of minions, a Lich can reanimate whole armies and construct minions.. so an Elder Dragon deeply tied to death magic could in theory construct massive beings like Zhaitans Dragon Champions from the mass of dead materials he has available to him in Orr.

    That was my thought too when I first thought of Lupi's as a frame.. but then I remembered the size of the bones in PoF.. much bigger than the risen Lupi in Arah.
    I wonder if the theory is accurate the one in Arah might have avoided the Dragon transformation because it was too small, could explain why it's the only one Zhaitan had in his army.. the rest he made into Dragons.
    Makes sense to me but it's just specualtion.

    Well, we were told in interviews that the Giganticus Lupicus we fought was from the previous dragonrise. If the Orrian History Scrolls hold true, then Balthazar and Melandru cleaned out Orr when they arrived - this could have wiped out any number of last-gen risen.

    What's interesting is that the G-Lupe being the only known minion from the last gen for Zhaitan, and a champion at that, puts it as possibly being in the same "herald" role as Glint, Drakkar, and the Great Destroyer. This has two interesting notes: 1) they're all smaller than other oversized dragon champions, 2) that makes the G-Lupe the only non-draconic herald.

    Im curious to what actually happens to Dragon minions once a dragon goes to sleep again.
    Champions from what I expect also go to sleep and maybe minions do as well, after all we never saw any Dragon Minions in Gw1 until Primordus and Jormag started showing signs of waking up.
    Even the Cataclysm didn't wake up or distrub any of Zhaitans minions which suggests that when their master goes to sleep they all completely shut down as well and can't wake up until their master does.

    I didn't even think of the Risen Knights, that's a good point.. Wonder if they would have become even more draconic looking if they had gained more magic.. loosing their human traits almost entirely.. replaced by dragon ones.
    Zhaitans champions applying the same theory, could just be heavily mutated Lupi that have developed dragon like features.
    Though looking at this concept art.. it does kinda look like Dragon Knights are small Dragon corpse's with a human torso chained/fused onto them so they can use weapons..
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Risen_Dragon_Knight_concept_art.jpg
    Then again they look quite different in game.. more human with dragon parts slapped on, the feet however are like dragon feet so it does appear to be more a mutation as you said rather than a frankensteining of human and dragon parts as the concept art looks more like.

    There was several concept art by Kekai Kotaki that was warping flesh into draconian shape, such as this one and this one.

    But for more in-game examples, the Mouth of Zhaitan is similarly heavily warped - it's a giant humanoid, but has small arms grasping at its head/collar, and of course the giant mouth in the belly. Doesn't look sewn together like Abominations.

    Yeah Zhaitan does seem to posses the ability to mutate or twist his minions forms with death magic.
    The Mouth does appear to be made from more than a single being though.
    It seems to have a human or norn head but the body looks very similar to a Gw1 giant which is kinda interesting since Giants got redesigned in Gw2 and were much smaller in Gw1.
    It's a curious creature isnt it.

    Yeah like they did with Aurines Egg huh XD
    They know how to test our patience i'll give them that Ha!

    Yeah. ANet seems to enjoy running two or three arcs simultaneously since Season 1.

    For Season 1, we had the Ellen Kiel arc and the Scarlet arc; for Season 2 and HoT, we had the Mordremoth Arc and Aurene arc; in Season 3, we had the White Mantle arc, Balthazar arc, and Aurene arc; in PoF and S4 we had the Joko arc, Balthazar arc, and Aurene arc; now in S5, we have Jormag and Bangar arcs... with possibly something else being hinted behind the scenes that we don't yet know enough to know for sure of.

    Ironically, since HoT began, they've been having issues including any more of the cast than 4 characters, making it hard to have all of Dragon's Watch around at once.

    Not to mention the Sohothin mystery that took how many years? to get finally answered..
    It's pretty cool that Anet can setup stories like that so long before they get resolved but yeah.. the wait is murder sometimes lol

    Im not to bothered about the cast being split up all the time and doing their own thing but I do hope that for the big showdown's in future everyone is around to play a part.
    That goes for more than just Dragons Watch too, I wanna see more of the Pact and the living Destinys Edge members.. Zojja especially who has been absent from almost the entire game overall which is really really disappointing.
    At this point I don't care if Zojja gets recast for a while to make that happen either.
    Could just write it in as long term damage to her voice or something and if Felicia day ultimately decides not to come back then Anet can just make the change permanent.

    I expected the existing Dragons were a good few cycles old at least so 50,000-100,000 years doesn't seem to farfetched though it would make Glint a lot more ancient than she appeared to be if she was indeed born prior to Kralk becoming an Elder Dragon.
    Unfortunately there's almost nothing going back far enough to know anything about the world back then.. I doubt even Tyria's most ancient living races existed that far back.

    Glint's apparent age if she was from pre-ED Kralk is why I'm very doubtful of that theory. Could she really have survived so many dragonrises? I think it's more likely she's from pre-Torment ED Kralk, but not pre-ED Kralk. This of course depends on just how long it takes for Torment to build up in an Elder Dragon.

    Even if we assume that Kralkatorrik is the youngest of the current Elder Dragons (not implausible - Mordremoth might've been "killed" before, as it's been suggested by devs that the Mouth of Mordremoth is not his original body and he had to do a body swap, so possible other ED were killed and replaced too, and the jotun never knew / the records didn't last), that would still put Glint to be 30,000 years or older herself if she was born before Kralkatorrik became an Elder Dragon. Even with only fragmented memories from before 3,000 years ago, to only remember Kralkatorrik as an Elder Dragon seems weird to me. But more than that, surviving so long while being refused to gain enough power by Kralkatorrik's will due to enslavement seems even weirder.

    While we don't know for sure what things were like back then it could be possible that Kralkatorrik took up the role in a similar way that Aurine did.
    Perhaps he was involved in a rebellion against another evil dragon perhaps his own mother.. and he became an Elder because he had to stop another and someone had to take up the role.
    He could have been corrupted as early as his first reawakening cycle.. maybe that's also when he branded Glint too.
    He may have even branded her after first becoming an ED much in the same way Aurine branded Caithe.. willingly as connection not corruption.. she was loyal to him at this time so who knows.
    If Glint went into a sleep like state along side her master too that could explain why she may also not have memories spanning such a long trek of time.. she would have slept though so much of it.

    To me, rather than thinking "the Elder Dragons can't have children", it is more likely to me that "Elder Dragons don't want to have children because they pose potential risks", given that scions seem to be the best candidates to replace Elder Dragons. Even with corrupting them, it's plausible.

    There is merit to this too, Glint despite being purified retained her corrupted body and yet was still able to produce living eggs.
    The Scion point too is another good one although if Elder Dragons don't fear death then would they really care all that much about potential risks to them?.
    Kralkatorrik in some way wanted to die or at the very least didn't care about dying to end his pain, perhaps the Torment has more to do with them not wanting Scions than the Elder Dragons themselves.

    And mentioning Mordremoth's body-swapping reminded me of an other theory about Mordremoth's potential children: the Spitfires are called "Lesser Mordremoth Head"s by the 3d artist, and their appearance is remarkably similar to the Mouth of Mordremoth, which led me to think that they may be corrupted scions of the Mouth's body, and/or grown "replacements" for when the Mouth dies (the DS meta does seem to occur three times canonically - rather than repairing the body, perhaps Mordremoth merely took a Spitfire and "grew it" and remolded it with magic?).

    It's quite possible, in the HoT launch trailer you do see Mordremoth creating a minion from tendrils and vines as well as a giant mass of tendrils shaped like the Mouth of Mordremoth.

    I've long thought that he grew most of his stronger minions/champions as well as the Shadow of the Dragon in the same way.. essentially constructing them from Tendrils and fusing them into a new solid form.
    We know Blighting Trees require living or dead beings to be placed in their pods in order to duplicate them so it would make sense if Mordremoth also has the ability to manually create his own minions as seen in the trailer.
    If I had to guess that's probably how he created the Mouth and replaces it when neccessary.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah that's partly why im not fully sold on the possibility of Bone Dragons being the same or linked to Zhaitans champions.
    If they were related and size didn't matter for a Champion than Bone Dragon Champions in theory would be smaller than the Dragons Zhaitan uses/creates..
    This could very well just be an oversight on Anets part or a deliberate design change to make them bigger and more imposing.. which would make sense since huge world bosses were quite a big promotion for the game if I remember correctly.

    Large world bosses was definitely a big promotion. And as mentioned, that's a large reason why Drakkar was made a separate entity from Jormag - original design plans was for Jormag to be beneath Drakkar Lake, but the model was simply "too small" to be an Elder Dragon, so it was made a champion. They almost did the same for Primordus with its redesign in S3, and even said in the related Guild Chat "we never said the statue was Primordus" but that's was incorrect and I and others brought up examples of such in responding threads; now in the Complete Art of Guild Wars book, reaffirms the statue is indeed Primordus (hard to say if they went back because folks disagreed or if they just decided independently though).

    Point being: size in GW1 doesn't exactly correlate to size in GW2, and GW1 designs were across the board smaller than in GW2. It's rather interesting that Glint's model is the same size between the two games, given the fact that Edge of Destiny describes her as being effectively Shatterer-sized. Probably done for the scene of Aurene nestled to Glint's crystallized corpse (the fact she still has a corpse being counter to Zephyrite lore from S1 and S2 anyways...). So sizes not matching isn't a strong reason to doubt it. Would be nice if ANet could confirm if there's any relation though...

    But I digress. Just a theory of possibilities, since we don't know what the origins of the Bone Dragons are and, as far as we know, there is no species of six-limbed dragons native to Tyria... or anywhere else in the world... outside of the Elder Dragons. Even the Saltspray Dragons are four-limbed and effectively just serpentine wyverns.

    Im curious to what actually happens to Dragon minions once a dragon goes to sleep again.
    Champions from what I expect also go to sleep and maybe minions do as well, after all we never saw any Dragon Minions in Gw1 until Primordus and Jormag started showing signs of waking up.
    Even the Cataclysm didn't wake up or distrub any of Zhaitans minions which suggests that when their master goes to sleep they all completely shut down as well and can't wake up until their master does.

    Based on Primordus and Jormag post-S3, nothing seems to happen. There's a hint in EotN manual that destroyers had always been active in the Depths, but in a kind of Balrog state - one would only find them rarely and when digging too deep:

    The Dwarves have provided limited information about the mysteries they have uncovered beneath the earth. Initial reports describe an immense, interconnected underground complex they call the "Depths of Tyria." These natural caves and excavated areas house structures left behind by civilizations dating back to a time before the arrival of humans in Tyria. The Depths are connected by a series of magical gateways that allow swift travel through miles of earth and stone.

    These gateways were created by a race known as the Asura, who use them for mining, research, and other jaunts across great distances. Most of the gates are guarded by Asuran GOLEMs, for the Depths teem with threats—both animal and geological. Those who dare to travel below realize the risk they take in doing so, and those who return tell wild stories of monsters made of fire and stone that move in the Depths.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Depths_of_Tyria

    It does seem like the Heralds go into a pseudo-hibernative state, given Drakkar's immobility despite being able to move through ice, but it does seem like all minions don't just shut down once they stop receiving orders - even in an Elder Dragon's death that doesn't happen as seen in Arah and Siren's Landing with risen (though I imagine the decaying rate of intelligence and increase of freedom doesn't occur when an Elder Dragon sleeps).

    But it should be kept in mind that the Great Destroyer was sealed away long ago - so destroyers wouldn't be a normal situation. Heck, with the actions of the Six Gods and Forgotten, one could argue all dragon minions got hunted down - the Six supposedly terraformed much of the planet, and the Forgotten spread out to guide lesser races. With Glint preparing for 3,000 for Kralkatorrik's return, I'd find it hard to believe she and the Forgotten didn't hunt down dragon minions they could.

    Yeah Zhaitan does seem to posses the ability to mutate or twist his minions forms with death magic.
    The Mouth does appear to be made from more than a single being though.
    It seems to have a human or norn head but the body looks very similar to a Gw1 giant which is kinda interesting since Giants got redesigned in Gw2 and were much smaller in Gw1.
    It's a curious creature isnt it.

    Hmm, I wouldn't relate it to GW1 giants at all. GW1 giants resembled either yetis with tusks (Elonian and Shiverpeak variants), or gw2 ogres (Crystal Desert variant). Maybe can be called similar to Hill Giants, but that feels stretching it - plus as mentioned, giants got a huge redesign into cyclopes. Using the wiki's image, the Mouth of Zhaitan doesn't show any signs of being furred, or having spikes down its spine or arms. It does have the spines along its shoulders but that's hard to say if it's clothing or bon - the blackness implies clothing to me. If Zhaitan can make norn become huge and bloated, I can imagine it can make humans the same. The only "multiple creature" that I see is the extra arms grasping its collar.

    The Scion point too is another good one although if Elder Dragons don't fear death then would they really care all that much about potential risks to them?.
    Kralkatorrik in some way wanted to die or at the very least didn't care about dying to end his pain, perhaps the Torment has more to do with them not wanting Scions than the Elder Dragons themselves.

    Lack of fear is not the same as not wanting to take risks. As to Kralkatorrik wanting to die - keep in mind that he's been suffering Torment for literally thousands of years, and in his unstable state killed someone he loved. But for the other Elder Dragons theoretically "not wanting Scions" - I wouldn't be so quick to push it on the Torment, since it's implied that Torment acts differently to each Elder Dragon (and it's not even certain all of them suffered from such).

    I've long thought that he grew most of his stronger minions/champions as well as the Shadow of the Dragon in the same way.. essentially constructing them from Tendrils and fusing them into a new solid form.
    We know Blighting Trees require living or dead beings to be placed in their pods in order to duplicate them so it would make sense if Mordremoth also has the ability to manually create his own minions as seen in the trailer.

    The thing that is most curious about the Mouth of Mordremoth is that it's not just plants - it's also reptilian flesh with scales and all that. Hard to figure out if Spitfires are the same since they're always full of crowds of heavy-hitting attacks that makes observing the model challenging.

    But the fact the Mouth of Mordremoth has animal characteristics does imply that it was born a reptilian creature, regardless of origins.

    And the idea of Mordremoth literally taking control of its own children's bodies when his own dies is a certain level of cruelty and sinister mentality that really fits Mordremoth to me with how he instills this thought of "we are all Mordremoth" into his minions.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    -snip transcription-

    Jormag may be referencing a time before the All was divided into Six spheres. High dragons may have crafted the All or distorted the All by dividing it into six spheres so they could harness more magic. Elder dragons may be artificially produced Eldritch beings. The danger of unclaimed magic or magic imbalances explained by Taimi could be a symptom of a broken system that is also inherently broken or unnatural. If the natural form of All magic is analogous to an ocean of water, the Elder dragons forced all magic to into a system of artificial lakes, rivers, dams and locks. A return to the natural state would be extremely dangerous and have the same effects Tiami discovered. Aurene may be the vehicle needed for returning all magic to its natural, unclaimed state. It is a familiar fantasy plot that wouldn't require Aurene's death and could resolve the power fantasy without creating a Kormir effect.-

    I didn't know people had figured out what it said! Nice read. Really paints Jormag even more as a curious character with uncertain goals. I'm loving it.

    As to your theory, an interesting one. But also one that seems to counter our current evidence. If the world needs Elder Dragons - and a certain number of them - then what existed before them if they were artificially produced? The All itself is the functionality of the world; that's not something you can create unless you're also creating the world. This implies to me that whoever created the world (be it The Mists, some gods, Koda, or what-have-you) made the original sphere-holders as well.

    Not sure how Aurene could return all magic to it's theoretical natural state, except for doing what I've seen so many in the lore forum say will be a boring plot: making her the One True Elder Dragon. (Which I agree would indeed be boring, and counteractive to established lore).

    I'm loving it too. I will be so disappointed if it turns out Jormag is just trying to trick us and none of his misery is genuine. It would be an interesting approach if the writers tried to trick us by showing a compelling direction then taking the less interesting one.

    Aurene would end the need for Elder beings not become the One True Elder Dragon. Her special nature would allow her stabilize the transition in configuration, hopefully without killing her. Glint's plan is only slightly removed from Crystal Dragon Jesus problem, making a pantheon of gods instead of one supreme god. Glint's plan requires Tyrians to eternally worship, I mean bond with, Elder dragons or risk catastrophe. The All would be the 'functionality of the world' regardless of how it was configured. An artificially configured All would produce all the effects Tiami describes as the configuration collapses.

    Just speculation obviously, but I think it is more likely we see my idea rather than Glint's plan. If the All is the 'functionality of the world', Elder beings are required, and Jormag's misery is genuine, then the Tyrian universe is potentially filled with misery filled worlds. Glint's plan offers a resolution to our power fantasy where we domesticate and potentially breed Aurene. Imo, Tyrian cosmology is more stable and way less creepy if the Tyrian All configuration is corrupted or unnatural.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah that's partly why im not fully sold on the possibility of Bone Dragons being the same or linked to Zhaitans champions.
    If they were related and size didn't matter for a Champion than Bone Dragon Champions in theory would be smaller than the Dragons Zhaitan uses/creates..
    This could very well just be an oversight on Anets part or a deliberate design change to make them bigger and more imposing.. which would make sense since huge world bosses were quite a big promotion for the game if I remember correctly.

    Large world bosses was definitely a big promotion. And as mentioned, that's a large reason why Drakkar was made a separate entity from Jormag - original design plans was for Jormag to be beneath Drakkar Lake, but the model was simply "too small" to be an Elder Dragon, so it was made a champion. They almost did the same for Primordus with its redesign in S3, and even said in the related Guild Chat "we never said the statue was Primordus" but that's was incorrect and I and others brought up examples of such in responding threads; now in the Complete Art of Guild Wars book, reaffirms the statue is indeed Primordus (hard to say if they went back because folks disagreed or if they just decided independently though).

    Point being: size in GW1 doesn't exactly correlate to size in GW2, and GW1 designs were across the board smaller than in GW2. It's rather interesting that Glint's model is the same size between the two games, given the fact that Edge of Destiny describes her as being effectively Shatterer-sized. Probably done for the scene of Aurene nestled to Glint's crystallized corpse (the fact she still has a corpse being counter to Zephyrite lore from S1 and S2 anyways...). So sizes not matching isn't a strong reason to doubt it. Would be nice if ANet could confirm if there's any relation though...

    Yeah it really would, there's so many theories floating around in the community that tend to linger for years and it's pretty great when some do end up getting confirmed to be pretty accurate, the Sylvari being Mordremoth Minions was one of them which was pretty sweet when it got confirmed.

    As for Primordus redesign.. I think Anet could do something really cool with that in the future without actually rectonning the Gw1 design.
    Now that Aurine is an Elder Dragon and possibly fully grown to my knowledge, she's hardly anywhere near as big Kralkatorrik or the others which could confirm that Elder Dragons don't necessarily need to be gigantic entities like the Mouth of Mordremoth or Kralkatorrik.

    I put forward an idea a few times before about the Primordus we saw in LW3 being a massive destroyer construct that acts like a living shell/armour that Primordus uses to tunnel through the earth and sow destruction.
    The real dragon, the Primordus we saw in Gw1 is inside that shell, fused into it with those strange tentacles it has coming from it's body.

    I could see a 4 part fight with Primordus if this design is how the Dragon was done.
    First would be against the shell which we at the time think is Primordus, after "killing" it we get a similar thing to Kralkatorrik where Taimi calls us and tells us it's still alive!
    As we prepare to pull another go down the throat and punch it in the heart moment the shell comes back to life and forces us to retreat wondering how the hell that happened.

    Second time we "kill" the shell we already have a plan to instantly go and kill the heart so instead of giving the shell time to recover we go inside it straight away.. but we don't find a heart this time we find the real Primordus instead who personally attacks us and traps us inside the shell which he brings back to life again.
    So now we're stuck and we have to fight Primordus while his shell is burrowing through the earth taking us gods knows where.

    First part of the fight would be to damage an immobilie Primordus cuccooned into the wall, break off parts of his armour and sever hisexposed tenticles from the shell in order to kill the shell once and for all.
    Once that's done Primordus detaches from the wall and we finally see the real Dragon in his pure physical form and the final battle ensues.

    I think something like that would be a great way for Primordus to be done.

    Im curious to what actually happens to Dragon minions once a dragon goes to sleep again.
    Champions from what I expect also go to sleep and maybe minions do as well, after all we never saw any Dragon Minions in Gw1 until Primordus and Jormag started showing signs of waking up.
    Even the Cataclysm didn't wake up or distrub any of Zhaitans minions which suggests that when their master goes to sleep they all completely shut down as well and can't wake up until their master does.

    Based on Primordus and Jormag post-S3, nothing seems to happen. There's a hint in EotN manual that destroyers had always been active in the Depths, but in a kind of Balrog state - one would only find them rarely and when digging too deep:

    Could be.. although Jormag while put into a dormant state was still whispering and talking to people so I don't know if it actually did return to a true shut down sleep state, it could have been more like a pre awakening but stirring state like it was in Gw1.
    Primordus could be the same, Dormant but still stirring and acting willfully though it's minions.

    The Dwarves have provided limited information about the mysteries they have uncovered beneath the earth. Initial reports describe an immense, interconnected underground complex they call the "Depths of Tyria." These natural caves and excavated areas house structures left behind by civilizations dating back to a time before the arrival of humans in Tyria. The Depths are connected by a series of magical gateways that allow swift travel through miles of earth and stone.

    These gateways were created by a race known as the Asura, who use them for mining, research, and other jaunts across great distances. Most of the gates are guarded by Asuran GOLEMs, for the Depths teem with threats—both animal and geological. Those who dare to travel below realize the risk they take in doing so, and those who return tell wild stories of monsters made of fire and stone that move in the Depths.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Depths_of_Tyria

    It does seem like the Heralds go into a pseudo-hibernative state, given Drakkar's immobility despite being able to move through ice, but it does seem like all minions don't just shut down once they stop receiving orders - even in an Elder Dragon's death that doesn't happen as seen in Arah and Siren's Landing with risen (though I imagine the decaying rate of intelligence and increase of freedom doesn't occur when an Elder Dragon sleeps).

    But it should be kept in mind that the Great Destroyer was sealed away long ago - so destroyers wouldn't be a normal situation. Heck, with the actions of the Six Gods and Forgotten, one could argue all dragon minions got hunted down - the Six supposedly terraformed much of the planet, and the Forgotten spread out to guide lesser races. With Glint preparing for 3,000 for Kralkatorrik's return, I'd find it hard to believe she and the Forgotten didn't hunt down dragon minions they could.

    I expect sleeping and death would be very different states for Minions.

    When the Dragons choose to go back to sleep that could be when they command all their minions to go dormant into a kind of stasis so the world can forget about them.
    When their masters die however it's more like their minions are being disconnected from the Borg hive mind.

    I think it makes sense if it worked that way, I don't know of any lore that shows dragon minions active while their master is sleeping.
    It could be that they are wiped out as you said but surely some record would have survived detailing them over the centuries.
    If the Gods themselves took part in wiping them from the world then Humans would surely have records about such creatures since they lived among the Gods for a reasonable amount of time before they left the world.
    If they also terraformed much of the world surely they would have found them or disturbed them too as you said..
    Hiding them away and shutting them down for thousands of years does seem plausable, though so does them being exterminated too so guess that's another question for Anet to answer one day lol

    Yeah Zhaitan does seem to posses the ability to mutate or twist his minions forms with death magic.
    The Mouth does appear to be made from more than a single being though.
    It seems to have a human or norn head but the body looks very similar to a Gw1 giant which is kinda interesting since Giants got redesigned in Gw2 and were much smaller in Gw1.
    It's a curious creature isnt it.

    Hmm, I wouldn't relate it to GW1 giants at all. GW1 giants resembled either yetis with tusks (Elonian and Shiverpeak variants), or gw2 ogres (Crystal Desert variant). Maybe can be called similar to Hill Giants, but that feels stretching it - plus as mentioned, giants got a huge redesign into cyclopes. Using the wiki's image, the Mouth of Zhaitan doesn't show any signs of being furred, or having spikes down its spine or arms. It does have the spines along its shoulders but that's hard to say if it's clothing or bon - the blackness implies clothing to me. If Zhaitan can make norn become huge and bloated, I can imagine it can make humans the same. The only "multiple creature" that I see is the extra arms grasping its collar.

    I was looking more at the body type gw1 giants had and noting the similarities :)
    They can't be giants due to the redesign they got for Gw2.. too big.
    I didn't think of the bloating Norns though, completely forgot about them, could definitely be a similar thing going on there with the mouth.
    It does state that the mouth is likely a corrupted creature though nobody knows what it would have been originally.. considering there are some pretty unique extinct species around Orr (like Gorillas) It's quite possible there are others that are just lost to time as well.. perhaps a tribe of large Orrian Ogres or Trolls existed there once and that's what the mouth was corrupted from.

    The Scion point too is another good one although if Elder Dragons don't fear death then would they really care all that much about potential risks to them?.
    Kralkatorrik in some way wanted to die or at the very least didn't care about dying to end his pain, perhaps the Torment has more to do with them not wanting Scions than the Elder Dragons themselves.

    Lack of fear is not the same as not wanting to take risks. As to Kralkatorrik wanting to die - keep in mind that he's been suffering Torment for literally thousands of years, and in his unstable state killed someone he loved. But for the other Elder Dragons theoretically "not wanting Scions" - I wouldn't be so quick to push it on the Torment, since it's implied that Torment acts differently to each Elder Dragon (and it's not even certain all of them suffered from such).

    I've long thought that he grew most of his stronger minions/champions as well as the Shadow of the Dragon in the same way.. essentially constructing them from Tendrils and fusing them into a new solid form.
    We know Blighting Trees require living or dead beings to be placed in their pods in order to duplicate them so it would make sense if Mordremoth also has the ability to manually create his own minions as seen in the trailer.

    The thing that is most curious about the Mouth of Mordremoth is that it's not just plants - it's also reptilian flesh with scales and all that. Hard to figure out if Spitfires are the same since they're always full of crowds of heavy-hitting attacks that makes observing the model challenging.

    But the fact the Mouth of Mordremoth has animal characteristics does imply that it was born a reptilian creature, regardless of origins.

    And the idea of Mordremoth literally taking control of its own children's bodies when his own dies is a certain level of cruelty and sinister mentality that really fits Mordremoth to me with how he instills this thought of "we are all Mordremoth" into his minions.

    Could it be replicated flesh and scales?
    Mordremoth does seem to have the ability to clone things in blighting trees making completely identical copies of non plant beings but made entirely out of plants.
    You can see that with the Mordrem variants of Logan and Zojja.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Zojja_(Mordrem).jpg
    Mechanically they are just reskins of the human and asura models with a green tint effect on them but in terms of lore it does state on the wiki that "Blighting Trees are capable of creating physically perfect clones of the individuals placed in pods, though made of plant instead"

    So I wonder if the flesh and scales on the mouth are actually plant but Mordremoth has made them appear as real flesh and scales.
    If the Bliting Trees can replicate flesh as plant then Mordremoth may have the same ability when it personally creates minions.
    Perhaps it does this with the mouth because the mouth might be a recreation of it's original Dragon body.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah it really would, there's so many theories floating around in the community that tend to linger for years and it's pretty great when some do end up getting confirmed to be pretty accurate, the Sylvari being Mordremoth Minions was one of them which was pretty sweet when it got confirmed.

    Ugh, I guess, if you can overlook the disparaties created by ANet in their attempt to steer players away from the dragon minion speculation. It's a bit ironic that everything people used to support their speculation of sylvari being dragon minions ended up being incorrect or unprovable (like the Pale Tree breaking free of Mordremoth by her own will "like Glint did", or "sylvari can't be corrupted therefore they're dragon minions" despite dragon minions very much being corruptible as per CoE), yet the speculation was right anyways.

    -snip Primordus stuff-

    Something along those lines could definitely work. My biggest issue - aside from Primordus' face becoming far more "generic lava dragon" in look - is that the implied size
    just makes no sense for a burrowing dragon.

    But they could easily simply shrink his next appearance (if there is one) like they did with Kralkatorrik and how Kralk basically has 4 model sizes in the game. Since all we see of Primordus' new look is the snout, they could easily use the rest of GW1's silhouette with the giant "dorsal fins" and tentacle arms. It'd be neat if they make Primordus look like an aquatic creature despite moving through solid rock - basically making it like Drakkar moving through ice, but more squid-dragon-hydrid appearance instead of a crocodile-whale hybrid.

    Could be.. although Jormag while put into a dormant state was still whispering and talking to people so I don't know if it actually did return to a true shut down sleep state, it could have been more like a pre awakening but stirring state like it was in Gw1.
    Primordus could be the same, Dormant but still stirring and acting willfully though it's minions.

    Well, Jormag became active again with Kralkatorrik's death - there's two major events of magic being released into the world that could have been the trigger for Jormag's whispers (Balthazar's death and Kralkatorrik's death). It got confirmed in the Narrative Team Q&A leading into IBS that magic from Balthazar did get put into the world, and that it was likely some of Kralk's did too - and the latter ended up being confirmed in Episode 2.

    So while we cannot denounce it, it is possible that Jormag and Primordus were fully inactive from the end of S3 to the end of S4.

    I expect sleeping and death would be very different states for Minions.

    When the Dragons choose to go back to sleep that could be when they command all their minions to go dormant into a kind of stasis so the world can forget about them.
    When their masters die however it's more like their minions are being disconnected from the Borg hive mind.

    Definitely, though I'm doubtful that the Elder Dragons would comment their minions go dormant too, was what I was getting at. That similar to how death doesn't mean the minions go dormant or keel over instantly, the Elder Dragons going to sleep would have no effect on their activity too.

    I think it makes sense if it worked that way, I don't know of any lore that shows dragon minions active while their master is sleeping.
    It could be that they are wiped out as you said but surely some record would have survived detailing them over the centuries.
    If the Gods themselves took part in wiping them from the world then Humans would surely have records about such creatures since they lived among the Gods for a reasonable amount of time before they left the world.
    If they also terraformed much of the world surely they would have found them or disturbed them too as you said..
    Hiding them away and shutting them down for thousands of years does seem plausable, though so does them being exterminated too so guess that's another question for Anet to answer one day lol

    Well, there is lore - Glint remained active defending Kralkatorrik as he slept, and this was when she read his mind and the minds of those who would kill him and sympathized with the races. If we take Glint's words in Edge of Destiny and combine them with the rest, it indicates that while she was given free will she still served Kralkatorrik for a while.

    As to humans having records - aside from the EotN manual entry, I'd disagree. According to the Orrian History Scrolls and the personal story, humans were brought to the world at Orr; but other lore indicates that humans didn't settle in Orr until at least 5 centuries later in 205 BE (we don't have a date for when humans arrived on the world, but they arrived - guided by the Six and implied via boat - to Cantha in 786 BE). That's at least 581 years in which the Six Gods could have cleansed continental Tyria of dragon minions without humanity being any the wiser. Plus if humanity's oldest records get things like the "creation" of magic wrong, there'd be a good chance that even if they found dragon minions, they'd record them as typical undead. plant creatures, or elementals.

    Could it be replicated flesh and scales?
    Mordremoth does seem to have the ability to clone things in blighting trees making completely identical copies of non plant beings but made entirely out of plants.
    You can see that with the Mordrem variants of Logan and Zojja.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Zojja_(Mordrem).jpg
    Mechanically they are just reskins of the human and asura models with a green tint effect on them but in terms of lore it does state on the wiki that "Blighting Trees are capable of creating physically perfect clones of the individuals placed in pods, though made of plant instead"

    So I wonder if the flesh and scales on the mouth are actually plant but Mordremoth has made them appear as real flesh and scales.
    If the Bliting Trees can replicate flesh as plant then Mordremoth may have the same ability when it personally creates minions.
    Perhaps it does this with the mouth because the mouth might be a recreation of it's original Dragon body.

    Other than for the Zojja, Logan, and Nuhoch clones, you can notice that the skin texture for mordrem clones are very much that of bark and other plant material, and not skin or scale. This is most notable on the mordrem itzel, who's texture turns from smooth and round bumps to lined bark. But you can notice this on the saurians too - they have the same "dark bark" texture as things like Teragriffs, Grunts, etc.

    I've often felt that the Zojja, Logan, Nuhoch clones and (most) Blighted foes in the Hearts of Minds instance were done that way simply because they were hitting the deadline - similar to why they removed the fourth lane and second MoM phase in the DS meta. So I wouldn't put their literal appearance as, well, literal lore.

    I imagine that if the Mouth of Mordremoth was intended to be fully plant, it would look a lot more like the Saurians and other bestial mordrem with their dark bark textures. The Spitfires do look a bit like that, tbh.

    Off-topic: I really wish they did to Mordrem Zojja/Logan what they did with Blighted Eir, Pale Tree, and Trahearne with the "half normal, half mordrem guard" looks. Or at the very least gave them sylvari-like armor (Harbinger of Mordremoth outfits would have been best choice).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 9, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Something along those lines could definitely work. My biggest issue - aside from Primordus' face becoming far more "generic lava dragon" in look - is that the implied size just makes no sense for a burrowing dragon.

    Given that both Kralk, and Jormag, are stated to be able to become "storms", instead of remaining as a solid physical body, I could easily see Primodrus being able to do something similar. Like, instead of being a solid dragon body, he just turns into a liquid magma stream and can move around that way at a fraction of the space. Just looking at how Kralk's neck was in PoF, to later in All or Nothing, and War Eternal, he went from being like the Shatterer, a bunch of rock held together by magic, to being fully formed "flesh". At least some of the ED's apparently have some ability to control how physical they are.

    One could even argue him getting smaller throughout the various model changes was simply him compressing his body size down, not like he HAS any actual organs inside him really. He could probably make himself any size he wanted so long as he had enough material and magic to control it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    One could even argue him getting smaller throughout the various model changes was simply him compressing his body size down, not like he HAS any actual organs inside him really. He could probably make himself any size he wanted so long as he had enough material and magic to control it.

    It was 100% mechanical model limitations, as established by ANet. Especially for his full-body model during The End; they went as large as they could without the model disappearing due to draw distance limitations. To compensate, they had to the shrink the player+Aurene to make Kralkatorrik seem bigger

    Similar for Dragonfall - Kralkatorrik's body is actually split up into 9 different models (tail, each leg, each wing, head, and body) and were likely facing the same issue - they'd either have to split his body up more or shrink him a bit to get him to fit.

    The thing about shifting into a storm is as you say - he's changing his body from flesh to a sandstorm. While Primordus probably could do something similar, that wouldn't account for the massive model change all the same. And, more importantly to the point of collapsing the literal continent when he moves, he'd still be leaving a MASSIVE chamber when he leaves wherever he solidifies at such a huge size - unless his body is literally something like this. I mean if he had a dake-like body, just look at this image done by that_shaman, ignore the wings and maybe the length of the tail, still as large as a full zone, and would no doubt collapse a city if he were to so much as shrug let alone vacate a location to become a stream of lava.

    Btw, Jormag isn't said to personally become a blizzard/storm, only capable of forming them. In one case, at least, he formed a blizzard with his mind inside of it at a great distance to his personal self, when the Dragonspawn was slain.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 9, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    While Primordus probably could do something similar, that wouldn't account for the massive model change all the same.

    We already know Jormag was able to use magic to reshape Drakkar's body from what it was in GW1, to what we see in GW2. Why couldn't the EDs do the same to themselves? They aren't organic(in the traditional sense), they are magical beings. If Kralk can turn his body into a literal storm, why can't he reshape it into whatever he wants? Why couldn't the others? I think you are applying to much real world logic to things that are basically just natural magical constructs.

    I mean if he had a dake-like body, just look at this image done by that_shaman, ignore the wings and maybe the length of the tail, still as large as a full zone, and would no doubt collapse a city if he were to so much as shrug let alone vacate a location to become a stream of lava.

    This is a silly comparison image. Things in MMOs are not scaled to each other accurately.

    If we take the world map of Tyria
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/be/Tyria_(world)_map_2.png
    And wrap it around a globe
    https://i.imgur.com/qGVkbGt.png
    We end up with a situation where many of these zones would realistically be as large, or larger, then some states in the U.S. Whereas Primordus would only be a coupe miles wide using his head as a reference.

    Btw, Jormag isn't said to personally become a blizzard/storm, only capable of forming them. In one case, at least, he formed a blizzard with his mind inside of it at a great distance to his personal self, when the Dragonspawn was slain.

    I was referencing his description in Edge of Destiny, which explicitly described him as a living blizzard.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 9, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    While Primordus probably could do something similar, that wouldn't account for the massive model change all the same.

    We already know Jormag was able to use magic to reshape Drakkar's body from what it was in GW1, to what we see in GW2. Why couldn't the EDs do the same to themselves? They aren't organic(in the traditional sense), they are magical beings. If Kralk can turn his body into a literal storm, why can't he reshape it into whatever he wants? Why couldn't the others? I think you are applying to much real world logic to things that are basically just natural magical constructs.

    Going off of the blog post, Drakkar wasn't that heavily altered lorewise. And even then, most of its appearance difference isn't actually Jormag (despite the kodan's belief) but decay from exposure to elements.

    I am not saying the Elder Dragons can't change their appearance - I mean, we already established Kralkatorrik can become a sandstorm. But there still seems to be a limitation on that just by the fact that even when Kralkatorrik becomes a sandstorm, he still has a large figure with the same basic silhouette of his body. This implies that, at least without exhausting a ton of magic and power, the Elder Dragons are still limited to an extent. And growing to be about 50x the size previously seen is probably going to be beyond the extent of that limit.

    That said, they are organic, at least partially, given the fact they breath, bleed, and even breed.

    This is a silly comparison image. Things in MMOs are not scaled to each other accurately.

    If we take the world map of Tyria
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/be/Tyria_(world)_map_2.png
    And wrap it around a globe
    https://i.imgur.com/qGVkbGt.png
    We end up with a situation where many of these zones would realistically be as large, or larger, then some states in the U.S. Whereas Primordus would only be a coupe miles wide using his head as a reference.

    Assuming that you scale the size of Primordus and the size of the map independently, and assuming that the size of Tyria = the size of Earth. Neither of which would be very accurate assumptions to take, imo.

    In lore, it takes less than a week to cross from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City, on foot, while avoiding patrols. This seems smaller than your depiction of how big some zones would be. Certainly larger than what we see in-game, where we can cover that distance within an hour or less, but it does imply Tyria < Earth in size.

    On top of that, Titan's Throat instance is at a different scaling than Draconis Mons (as is common for many instances that don't take place on the world map), almost being twice the size I believe, if not larger. This would imply that Primordus is actually larger to the open world than that_shaman's comparison would make it. So even if you were to make the open world map 10x larger, if Primordus is 3x larger, we're still seeing it shrugging causing earthquakes of at least a scale of 2 if not higher, let alone when he vacates an area as he had done.

    Btw, Jormag isn't said to personally become a blizzard/storm, only capable of forming them. In one case, at least, he formed a blizzard with his mind inside of it at a great distance to his personal self, when the Dragonspawn was slain.

    I was referencing his description in Edge of Destiny, which explicitly described him as a living blizzard.

    I know. But Jormag is never directly depicted in EoD, all we get is Eir's description of Jormag's rise, which has a degree of poeticness as is common in storytelling:

    "We fought Jormag - gladly we fought it, for norn are made for battle. But never had we fought a beast like this. It was a living blizzard. It and its minions froze us where we fought and buried our lands in snow and ice and tore apart Gunnar's Hold with a massive glacier. It took our lands. It drove us south."

    It seems obvious to me that Eir isn't being completely literal and is depicting a story, even when taking this paragraph out of context. Not to mention that no dialogue in the game calls it a literal blizzard, despite several tellings of the exact same event.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • On the topic of Jormag, I don't find them all that confusing. There's a history there that leads to one interesting possibility.

    I mean, Jormag's been around for a long time. I think that much is clear. They've seen the world turn, civilisations rise and fall, and many cycles come and go; they've clearly evolved something of a desire beyond bestial hunger, one more relateable to mortalkind. Initially, they just gave themself to the cycle. They ravaged, they sequestered power, they imbued some with their magicks to have soldiers to fight against the other dragons in this battle of unending greed for aether... It was simply what was done. Sometimes, that's how a person can operate, no matter how intelligent or powerful. The study regarding the chimps and an electrified ladder comes to mind here.

    Of course, one of the defining aspects of sapience is to be curious and inquisitive. At some point over the aeons Jormag found themself enthralled with the mortal races; how clever they were, how creative, compassionate, and kind. You can really get a feel for this from Asgeir's journal. Jormag is mesmerisd by mortals, like a curious parental figure they want to foster these tiny creatures to see what interesting shenanigans they'll get up to, what wonders they might make. Jormag saw them as worth preserving. This, of course, stood contrary to their need to engage in the cycles.

    Jormag themself told Asgeir that they had a dragon's will to survive. If the other Elder Dragons were engaging in the gorging process, Jormag had to as well. It was what was done. If Jormag didn't, then they would make themself vulnerable, a target, and they would get eaten. If they were eaten, what hope would the mortals have anyway? Perhaps Jormag could at least preserve some of them? Could they draw a few of them in to protect them with their persuasion, to keep them from all meeting their death when the next cycle came around? Perhaps Jormag didn't need to corrupt them completely, just impede their will enough to keep them safe. Cajole them, trick them, whatever was necessary to keep them alive.

    With each new cycle drawing near, Jormag felt a greater sense of dread as they no longer wanted to be a part of this process. This turned to anger over the futility of their position, and their scorn for the cycles of Elder Dragons grew. They wold amass power, somehow. They would freeze the world if necessary! If they could find a way to become the only Elder Dragon, they could become the protector of these mortals without fearing for their own life. This was the most desirable outcome, but no mortal would trust an Elder Dragon, and with good reason. They had tried reaching out to Asgeir, in a vain hope, but that hadn't gone according to plan.

    Then it came to pass that Zhaitan fell. This stirred a number of emotions. Chiefly among them was fear, if one Elder Dragon could be felled, then could others, would they come for Jormag next? How could they make the mortals understand? Their plans had to be accelerated, they would need to draw in mortals more quickly now to their aid. They wold need their own defenders who would speak for the worth of Jormag. They would need to be careful but perhaps an alliance could now be forged with these dragon slayers, the promise of having a dragon of their own on their side. It was a faint glimmer of hope certainly, but it was something.

    Another dragon felled, Mordremoth, the feelings of fear, anxiety, anticipation, and hope swirled around within Jormag. They would bide their time and wait to see what happened next, accruing whatever resources they needed. The mortals were clearly far more interested in Kralkatorrik so there wasn't any immediate need to worry. Oh but then the mortals do a silly thing and Jormag finds themself forced into slumber, fear takes over. Jormag partially gives in to torment.

    The rise of Aurene to an Elder Dragon grants the sleeping Jormag with hope, though they're still terrified and their torment seeks to utilise that against them, playing on the dragon's own survival instinct. Jormag is torn between two possibilities, that these mortals might save them, or that they might bring about their end. This leads to desperation. They decide to try to recruit two heroes, one of them being Bangar Ruinbringer of the charr. This champion is the one their torment prefeers, since he's already given himself to hatred. The other hero is, of course, the Commander.

    As Jormag draws both Bangar and the Commander to them, they await with trepidation, trying to resist their torment and hold onto the hope that a peaceful resolution can still be reached. Meanwhile, they try to work with their Fraenir and Braham's old guild to find a way to purify them and clear out their torment, Jhavi is instrumental in this process (this might potentially be due to their link with Raven), so claiming her is their primary goal. Unfortunately, the Commander can be remarkably oblivious to what's going on at any given time, and they're prone to picking fights first and only thinking to ask questions later when everyone's already dead (Rytlock should really stop letting the Commander do that).

    This leaves Jormag without a clear path to pursue to purify their torment. They know that Aurene could likely do it, so trying to convince Dragon's Watch to aid them so that Jormag can in turn help them with their future struggles is one of the most valid options. Jormag's torment, of course, doesn't particularly like this option and continues to champion Bangar's ascent as Jormag's champion. There are those who're loyal to Jormag, and those who're loyal to Jormag's torment (perhaps somewhat unwittingly), and both groups are vying for control without either really knowing what's going on. Jormag's kindness tends to inspire a great deal of loyalty, so it's likely that even those mislead believe what they're doing is in Jormag's best interests.

    As time goes on, Jormag's whispers become more and more obfuscated and hidden, and the whispers of their torment only grow louder. The Commander would have to listen very carefully to realise this (there is a certain hidden whisper of Jormag that's very different to the other whispers). Jormag toils in their slumber to wrest control away from their torment, they rely on Dragon's Watch being clever enough to figure out what's going on in order to save them from their torment. And really that's something they owe Jormag anyway having been responsible for it (having put them to sleep).

    It all depends on whether the Commander can figure it out in time, and given how oblivious they can be (I REMEMBER YOU, YOU'RE A SPY I SAY ALOUD ON A CORSAIR SHIP) that's a real dice roll and anyone's guess.