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Fractals Average/Decent DPS

Hey all,

I usually like to run min/max builds or general utility builds. I also usually include survivability in my set up so I'm not totally maxed out damage.

That all said, what is reasonable or decent DPS in fractals? How does this translate to the Aerodome combat kitty? I'm trying to gauge myself. I'm not worried about topping the charts at the expense of getting one-shot, but want to know where I am compared to typical setups. Thanks in advance. :)

Comments

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    Going by golem dps numbers and low-balling a lot, I'd say don't go below 25k dps on a damage dealer build (with golem and self setup properly). This is a stationary target which does not fight back and should as such test the limit of your build and ability.

    If you can hit 30k, your build/skill will outperform most not seasoned raid players. If you are below 20k, your build is trash, simple as that.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In most fractals, burst within first 10-15 seconds matter a lot more than consistent dps. I'd suggest checking out snowcrows benchmarks, but looking only the first number and trying to replicate that.

    Survivability is also pointless most of the time since you generally want a healer so take care of your health and boons because no boons= low damage.

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  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    25k to 30k in my opinion, but it depends on the encounter. If you are playing with the average pug fractal group they will proabably have a healer so you don't have to invest too much into personal sustain if you don't want to.

    Is there a particular class you are using? That could help for a better answer.

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
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    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    Depends entirely on the boss. Many have breakbars but some do not. When you smash a breakbar, the boss is stunned and gets a debuff called "exposed" for 5 seconds, causing them to take 50% more damage. The goal in fractals is to smash breakbars as soon as they appear and dump as much damage as you can into the boss during the exposed window.

    Some bosses like Skorvald in Shattered Observatory have very long invulnerability phases where your party's dps collapses because there is nothing to hit while floating between the anomalies. Speed clearing statics will make heavy use of precasting to maximize damage dealt in the exposed window and phase the boss in less than 5 seconds. They will use white mantle portals to reduce the downtime between anomalies. You can watch speed clears on youtube to see how they do it. [dT] has one with a Power Weaver that bursts up to 120k/s and averages 20k/s at the end of the fight but this is only possible with the help of 4 other players. In random fractal pugs, you are doing well if you average more than 10k/s.

    You cannot compare dps numbers between different bosses. The kitty golem is used for controlled dps tests. [SC] usually posts arcDPS logs in the description of their benchmark videos so you can replicate the test setup and rotation. When the setup is the same, the only difference will be your execution.

    Because of breakbars/exposed, average dps is not the only important thing to consider. Your burst is important. How much damage can do you do in the first 5 seconds of your rotation and can you line your rotation up to coincide with the breakbar going down? How many buttons in the rotation can you press without interrupting any actions and without letting any auto 1s slip through while cancelling all unnecessary delays (i.e. aftercasts)? If you can burst and average the same numbers as [SC], you are a machine. When I was learning the Condi Firebrand rotation I studied the arcDPS logs [SC] provided and in 4 million hp, they didn't let a single scepter auto attack through. Not one. My first flight run I let 64 scepter autos through. Your fingers need to be very fast and very accurate to reach their numbers.

    Lastly, meta fractal team composition divides players into 2 categories - dps and support. Dps players do not trait, skill or gear for any personal survivability whatsoever. Their job is only to phase or kill the boss as quickly as possible, thereby minimizing the entire team's exposure to boss mechanics. It is the support players' job to mitigate any incoming damage that can be blocked or absorbed on behalf of the entire party. Boss mechanics typically refer to attacks that cannot be blocked/absorbed/ignored and require you to disengage from the boss. It is the responsibility of all players, both dps and support to not die or cause other people to die to mechanics.

    Disengaging will lower your dps uptime, which will lower your dps. If you dodge or run away unnecessarily, your dps will go down. In sub optimal groups it is not always possible to just stand and burst so summarising your performance in terms of a single number is not possible.

    You should practice your rotation on a kitty golem ideally with arcDPS, dps.report and moxie. This will help you to understand where your damage comes from and that its a team effort in real world scenarios. You need boon support. If you bench kitty golem without boons and profession buffs, expect to lose on the order of half your dps. You will learn fractal mechanics by playing them and dying to them as necessary so you know what you can and cant get away with.

  • Painbow.6059Painbow.6059 Member ✭✭

    Fractals is centred on short burst phases, for the most part, meaning that trying to translate kitty golem numbers into performance is unfeasible. Your damage in fractals will vary largely depending on how good your CC is, along with offensive buffs present. There isn't a good number I can give you to aim for. Practice your rotation on golem, and in particular the cast times of your burst skills so you can use them very quickly in fractals without interrupting them. Also, don't invest anything into defensive stats if you want to do daily CMs and t4's, it's selfish and a waste

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    Depends entirely on the boss. Many have breakbars but some do not. When you smash a breakbar, the boss is stunned and gets a debuff called "exposed" for 5 seconds, causing them to take 50% more damage. The goal in fractals is to smash breakbars as soon as they appear and dump as much damage as you can into the boss during the exposed window.

    Some bosses like Skorvald in Shattered Observatory have very long invulnerability phases where your party's dps collapses because there is nothing to hit while floating between the anomalies. Speed clearing statics will make heavy use of precasting to maximize damage dealt in the exposed window and phase the boss in less than 5 seconds. They will use white mantle portals to reduce the downtime between anomalies. You can watch speed clears on youtube to see how they do it. [dT] has one with a Power Weaver that bursts up to 120k/s and averages 20k/s at the end of the fight but this is only possible with the help of 4 other players. In random fractal pugs, you are doing well if you average more than 10k/s.

    You cannot compare dps numbers between different bosses. The kitty golem is used for controlled dps tests. [SC] usually posts arcDPS logs in the description of their benchmark videos so you can replicate the test setup and rotation. When the setup is the same, the only difference will be your execution.

    Because of breakbars/exposed, average dps is not the only important thing to consider. Your burst is important. How much damage can do you do in the first 5 seconds of your rotation and can you line your rotation up to coincide with the breakbar going down? How many buttons in the rotation can you press without interrupting any actions and without letting any auto 1s slip through while cancelling all unnecessary delays (i.e. aftercasts)? If you can burst and average the same numbers as [SC], you are a machine. When I was learning the Condi Firebrand rotation I studied the arcDPS logs [SC] provided and in 4 million hp, they didn't let a single scepter auto attack through. Not one. My first flight run I let 64 scepter autos through. Your fingers need to be very fast and very accurate to reach their numbers.

    Lastly, meta fractal team composition divides players into 2 categories - dps and support. Dps players do not trait, skill or gear for any personal survivability whatsoever. Their job is only to phase or kill the boss as quickly as possible, thereby minimizing the entire team's exposure to boss mechanics. It is the support players' job to mitigate any incoming damage that can be blocked or absorbed on behalf of the entire party. Boss mechanics typically refer to attacks that cannot be blocked/absorbed/ignored and require you to disengage from the boss. It is the responsibility of all players, both dps and support to not die or cause other people to die to mechanics.

    Disengaging will lower your dps uptime, which will lower your dps. If you dodge or run away unnecessarily, your dps will go down. In sub optimal groups it is not always possible to just stand and burst so summarising your performance in terms of a single number is not possible.

    You should practice your rotation on a kitty golem ideally with arcDPS, dps.report and moxie. This will help you to understand where your damage comes from and that its a team effort in real world scenarios. You need boon support. If you bench kitty golem without boons and profession buffs, expect to lose on the order of half your dps. You will learn fractal mechanics by playing them and dying to them as necessary so you know what you can and cant get away with.

    Ill agree with the most stuff, outside od dps classes and support classes.
    IT was like that with support chrono when 1 class carried almost every mechanic, Rn fractals are more of a team effort where everyone has to do both dps and give boons/something else. Weaver precasting might and fury, slb giving moa on precast, dh giving stab, aegis reflect or taking conjurable hammer for cc if needed. Bs was considered as support but now hes dps Racing with weaver/slb/dh.
    Fb and rene are closest to what can be considered as support, becouse they have the most of boons and mechanics to cover, but labeling them only as support - which many PPL link with fact they dont need to do any dps is very harmfull to every pug group. Its especially noticable with revenant as every rene pug think, its enough to autoattack, Press f4, keep ss, and camp Staff 5. Game is at peak of powercreep, and for maximal performance, everyone should just know their class, to know where he can do dps and when he needs to give something other for the team.
    Im not even Talking about healbrands in >250 kp cm groups(which ofc is sad) , but rather renegades doing 2-3k dps everywhere and never breaking cc bars becouse of "dps class" mentality

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited June 9, 2020

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Rn fractals are more of a team effort where everyone has to do both dps and give boons/something else. Weaver precasting might and fury, slb giving moa on precast, dh giving stab, aegis reflect or taking conjurable hammer for cc if needed. Bs was considered as support but now hes dps Racing with weaver/slb/dh.

    Its semantics really. Certain dps builds are less selfish than others and are still able to bring the burst and the average dps numbers. As such they will always be meta. Slb can bring frost spirit and Berserker can sacrifice their entire utility bar for banners and something else that provides team support. I get why Banner Slave is a distinct build from Power Berserker and can be considered a support build because you give up personal dps in your utility slots for teamwide offensive buffs.

    Fb and rene are closest to what can be considered as support, becouse they have the most of boons and mechanics to cover, but labeling them only as support - which many PPL link with fact they dont need to do any dps is very harmfull to every pug group.

    I didn't explain it very well, but there is a difference between pug meta and speedclear meta supports. In very high performing, structured groups (i.e. speed clear) the supports are in essence dps builds with slightly different traits and/or utility skills because the utility and boon support they provide to the whole party is considered more valuable than the personal dps increase. They are also expected to interrupt their dps rotation to use things like defensive tomes. In pug meta, you have things like Healbrand - where the entire build and gear loadout is different to heavily prioritize team utility and boon uptime, sacrificing all personal dps in the process.

    Diviner Renegade is a weird one. You have to give up crit for boon duration and your own damage output suffers considerably. Even worse, you prioritize utility and boons in almost all scenarios and will interrupt your dps rotation and disrupt your energy management to do it, not just in high incoming damage scenarios.

    Its especially noticable with revenant as every rene pug think, its enough to autoattack, Press f4, keep ss, and camp Staff 5. Game is at peak of powercreep, and for maximal performance, everyone should just know their class, to know where he can do dps and when he needs to give something other for the team.

    Most of Diviner Renegade's dps comes from sword autos in assassin stance with impossible odds up. If you do nothing but camp sword/sword in assassin stance and auto attack the training golem with impossible odds, you will do 18k/s vs 21k/s with an optimized rotation. Even the optimized rotation assumes you always get to play with assassin stance and that you never have to interrupt your dps rotation for any reason, which is not always the case in fractals.

    In reality, you should switch to staff and use Darkrazers on breakbar. If No Pain, No Gain is an instability, you are swapping assassin stance for demon stance, always and without question. Even T4 pugs will moan at you if you don't. I get that speed clearing statics will try to squeeze all the damage out of the build but below high end speed clears, you are compromising your personal damage output all the time to help your teammates.

    Im not even Talking about healbrands in >250 kp cm groups(which ofc is sad) , but rather renegades doing 2-3k dps everywhere and never breaking cc bars becouse of "dps class" mentality

    It seems like we agree though. Personal damage output is secondary to team wide utility and boon uptime and this is why we call Diviner Renegade a support build. I think your problem is specifically with badly played Renegades. I think its a difficult build to play. Orders from Above really messes up your dps rotations. You have to deal with energy management and improvise your rotation on the fly if required. Its easy to mess up and get trapped in the wrong stance at the wrong time or not swap legends under 10% energy thereby wrecking your energy management in your new stance. It requires a lot of game knowledge to know what stances to use and when and is a hot mess to play in disorganized groups.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 9, 2020

    The DPS that clears the Fractal is enough. Whether it takes too long, or is too fast, or whatever, is up to you, your friends & your Fractal group, whether its your guild or PUGs. Everyone's desires vary, for example some people like to farm Fractal Relics as fast as possible, and have as many choices at Ascended drops that they can get within a certain time period, while others like challenge, and will keep fighting the boss even after your entire party wipes for half an hour just to see if they can do it solo, while everyone else gets frustrated and leaves.

    That said, "good" DPS depends on your role. If you're a DPS, then you should strive to optimise as much as possible. Don't even bring defenses, dedicate your entire build to it (especially group Might stacking and every % damage bonus you can take). If you're the tank (rare in Fractals, but sometimes taken for frequent rezzing and such like Mercy Runes), then focus on maxing out Condition Damage. Finally, if you're the healer, forget about DPS altogether because you won't do any on healing gear. Just take as much Healing Power and healing% bonuses as you can, all other support skills that you can (even Stealth skills, for skips and revives), and if you have any space leftover fill it with a bit of damage maybe.

    Dungeons, Fractals, Raids and Strike Missions are all group efforts. Decide what role you want to play, and play it efficiently, instead of trying to be everything, and let the group carry you in the areas that you don't specialise in.

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  • Janitsu.6284Janitsu.6284 Member ✭✭

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    Most of Diviner Renegade's dps comes from sword autos in assassin stance with impossible odds up. If you do nothing but camp sword/sword in assassin stance and auto attack the training golem with impossible odds, you will do 18k/s vs 21k/s with an optimized rotation. Even the optimized rotation assumes you always get to play with assassin stance and that you never have to interrupt your DPS rotation for any reason, which is not always the case in fractals.

    I'll have to pop in to say that this is ultimately false. Most of Renegade's damage comes from Citadel Bombardment and Chilling Isolation are quite large chunks of your DPS in general. This is since you get to use them under the "Exposed" effect. And you hardly ever interrupt your rotation in good groups, since your rotation has set points that you reach for and has a priority rotation. There is a huge difference between Renegades that pull 6k cleave as opposed to 28k cleave on Siax.

    All in all, Renegade requires quite a deep understanding and knowledge of the minigame with energy and knowing the timers of the group and adaptability to pull its weight and more. Optimised rotations hardly ever work in fractals as they are shown on golems.

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