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Li / Killproof for Strikes are a Problem

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  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyrai.8720 said:
    i can tell you from experience: a lot of pugs dont even manage to get gold on fraenir or kodans!

    omg!
    Really????
    You mean a team of 3 competent people carrying 7 others is not rewarded as well as a team of 10 people who come in prepared and experienced?
    Shocking!!!
    Those fiends!!!!... how dare they reward competent play with better loot!
    Thanks for sharing your experience... you don't think it was planned with way do you???

    so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!

    Of course it's about more/better loot. Faster clears when everyone does their jobs correctly means more time to jump into other rewarding activities.
    Anet has never been shy about rewarding efficiency as part of encounter design. It's baked into Drizzlewood, it's baked into Dragon Arena at Dragonbash, it's baked into strikes, it's baked into Toypocalypse.
    The fact you do not understand the correlation between time spent and loot gain (and are passing this realization along as some kind of epiphany) shows a rather shocking level of misunderstanding of the issues at play.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    The fact you do not understand the correlation between time spent and loot gain (and are passing this realization along as some kind of epiphany) shows a rather shocking level of misunderstanding of the issues at play.

    the way you formulated your comment and the fact that your conclusion to my comment is that i do not understand "the correlation between time spent and loot gain" really shows that you are neither able to read and understand a comment, nor able to deal with this topic objectively.

    read Cristalyans comment again and tell me again how its not an epiphany to some people that the point of "elitism" is not to be in some kind of "exclusive" community but simply efficient and effective gameplay.

    my following sentence

    so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!

    was meant as: in raids it doesnt matter how fast you kill the boss. you will always get the same loot. of course if you kill it faster you can go forward to the next boss quicker, increasing your overall loot/playtime. but the boss itself will always give the same rewards.
    strikes are different in that regard; a single boss gives different stages of rewards depending on how fast you kill it. so there is an additional factor to increase your loot/playtime. it seems some of those "i pugged with a no-kp group and got the kill anyway" preachers dont know/realise that, while most of them probably just dont care. which is fine by me, they can keep pugging with those groups. but they should respect that others do care and filter their groups by LI/kp to do so.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    snip
    This the second time I have responded to one of your posts only to see a response using inflammatory language that is strangely edited to be far less aggressive and insulting 15-20 minutes later.
    Not sure what your game is but I think it's just a better idea to ignore you going forward.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    i did not edit it to be less aggressive.
    i edited it to add some explanation that i realised was missing to deliver my point.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    LOOL !! This questions the meaning of "top raiders". If a raider needs a "good group" to complete the WoJ or Boneskinner for example, then he is not a "good" raider. He is at the same level with every random player building a PU Group. So, why is he asking for KP?

    Why I said this - I pugged all the strikes. Mostly after doing Shiverpeaks/Fraenir/Kodans, if the players considered the team to be good, then we continued. And most of the times we killed Bone and Completed WoJ from the first try. Again - why the need of KP? If ONE of the players is a very good one, he can decide every Strike.

    So, you can solo every strike, including WoJ and Boneskinner? Because that's what your claim is about - being able to carry other 9 players even if their input in the fight is minimal or zero. If so, i'd really like a video of it.

    Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a group for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

    If we take your words as true that means the formula: ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo). It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    your post shows that you have no idea about raiding or strikes whatsoever. (or the "elitist" community in that regard)
    being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time.
    so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!

    Indeed, it seems I have no idea - but not about raids or strikes. I have no idea of the "engine" pushing the raiders community. Thanks for clarifications. Let's see:

    1. being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time - that means you want to clear the raid as fast as possible to have enough time to stay on LA complaining you have no content? I don't think this is 100% accurate, because we have the second line:
    2. so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot! That is! The raiders community who asked for the raids for the sake of difficulty (if you read the archives you can find enough statements that they want the raid even if it has modest rewards) is very concerned by the LOOT!

    Conclusion - the raiding community is concerned to grab the loot in the fastest way to have enough time to waste on complains that they have no content. No matter that in this way they discard a lot of any polite attitude towards the other players - going to the point they consider them to be ZERO -see my previous answer to our colleague.

    HM - excellent! This is a way to spread the "good atmosphere" existing around the raids in the Open World too.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    So, you can solo every strike, including WoJ and Boneskinner? Because that's what your claim is about - being able to carry other 9 players even if their input in the fight is minimal or zero. If so, i'd really like a video of it.

    Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a group for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

    If we take your words as true that means the formula: ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo). It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.

    So is it medicore team + very good player or zero input team? There is a giant gap in-between those two.

  • Moradorin.6217Moradorin.6217 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2020

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    Lowering the Loot for everyone isnt helping much tbh. Thats just making strikes useless for everyone :)
    They should just remove the KP Items or ban the process in lfg at all.
    Maybe an Easy and Hard Mode then?

    If they remove kps then how would top raiders know how to get a good group?
    Easy and hardmode scenario would be like the discussions for ez and hard mode for raids

    who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience. I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn. I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

    Bottom line: People who think it should have KP so they can 100% avoid new players should go find a new game. THis is a community game and its more than just getting the most loot in the least time. People who only care about that are in the wrong game anyway, its not like gw2 offers good loot. I mean its more efficient to work and hour and buy gold w gems if you just want loot go get a job.

  • @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    LOOL !! This questions the meaning of "top raiders". If a raider needs a "good group" to complete the WoJ or Boneskinner for example, then he is not a "good" raider. He is at the same level with every random player building a PU Group. So, why is he asking for KP?

    Why I said this - I pugged all the strikes. Mostly after doing Shiverpeaks/Fraenir/Kodans, if the players considered the team to be good, then we continued. And most of the times we killed Bone and Completed WoJ from the first try. Again - why the need of KP? If ONE of the players is a very good one, he can decide every Strike.

    So, you can solo every strike, including WoJ and Boneskinner? Because that's what your claim is about - being able to carry other 9 players even if their input in the fight is minimal or zero. If so, i'd really like a video of it.

    Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a group for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

    If we take your words as true that means the formula: ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo). It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    your post shows that you have no idea about raiding or strikes whatsoever. (or the "elitist" community in that regard)
    being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time.
    so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!

    Indeed, it seems I have no idea - but not about raids or strikes. I have no idea of the "engine" pushing the raiders community. Thanks for clarifications. Let's see:

    1. being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time - that means you want to clear the raid as fast as possible to have enough time to stay on LA complaining you have no content? I don't think this is 100% accurate, because we have the second line:
    2. so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot! That is! The raiders community who asked for the raids for the sake of difficulty (if you read the archives you can find enough statements that they want the raid even if it has modest rewards) is very concerned by the LOOT!

    Conclusion - the raiding community is concerned to grab the loot in the fastest way to have enough time to waste on complains that they have no content. No matter that in this way they discard a lot of any polite attitude towards the other players - going to the point they consider them to be ZERO -see my previous answer to our colleague.

    HM - excellent! This is a way to spread the "good atmosphere" existing around the raids in the Open World too.

    The thing is, if you want to play with mediocre players, you'll have to look for LI groups. I would consider myself a mediocre player and my dps benchmarks are somewhere between 70-85% of SC/LN Benchmarks (having bit over 500 LI so far). I guess the average open world player wont get 50% of the benchmark. Expressed in school marks they would not pass the test/exam whatever.
    This is not school so its fine, but think about why there are different type of schools? If you mix people with a too big difference in knowledge (or ability to perform in a video game) all the time, it is just bad for both.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a group for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

    If we take your words as true that means the formula: ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo). It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.

    I guess we differ in the definition of the term "mediocre" then. Because i'm quite sure that in the team of 9 mediocre players and one good player, the good player would do at least half (if not more) of the job of the whole group. That is enough to clear Shiverpeaks, might be enough to do Fraenir and Kodans, but is nowhere close enough to be able to clear Whisper and Boneskinner. It's completely normal to see mediocre players doing 2-3k damage, see half of your group dead before last phase of Whisper, and see most of the remaining players die within 10 seconds after that last phase starts. It's also completely normal to see all mediocre players die on the first aoe in Boneskinner.

    Yes, that can be mitigated with enough healers and enough people doing actual damage, but the keyword being "enough" - and a single good player is simply not enough for that.

    And you even admit that indirectly. You said "Mostly after doing Shiverpeaks/Fraenir/Kodans, if the players considered the team to be good, then we continued.". So, there were also groups you didn't consider to be "good enough" to continue, and, as such, you never really had any experience in dealing with those two strikes in a truly mediocre group. After all that speech about "one good player being able to help others to win", in truth you were also prefiltering your teammates for those last two strikes. You just were doing it at a slightly later point.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    They already did add multiple difficulty options by making Strikes of different difficulty levels. That the community is not taking advantage of that is quite puzzling.

    You're right, if you don't care for the experience of playing the content then (iirc) there is nothing you can get from strikes which requires you to play a specific one. I suspect that this however is going to change with the end of the current season.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    That's a problem which could be avoided by Arenanet implementing multiple difficulty options.

    They already did add multiple difficulty options by making Strikes of different difficulty levels.

    There is one difficulty option per Strike Mission.
    Why not have two or three per Strike Mission?

    This could please the people who want Shiverpeaks Pass to be harder, the people who want Boneskinner to be easier and the people with wishes in between.

    My guildies (who do not clear raids or run t4 fractals) actually started with the easy strikes - Shiverpeaks, Fraenir, bears. Once they started feeling comfortable with those, they began doing Whisper and Boneskinner. Did not take them too long to learn, and even though the dps is not raid level, our guild groups can now comfortably do the hardest strike missions and understand the mechanics. It's not rocket science. Theyve also got a big confidence boost from being able to survive Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag, and it has gotten some of them into raiding and coming up with more helpful build variety and improving themselves as players.

  • Moradorin.6217Moradorin.6217 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    @Moradorin.6217 said:
    who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience. I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn. I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

    riddle me this:
    how did players learn how to raid when raids were first introduced to gw2? there wasnt anyone to teach them.
    yea, you probably figured it out yourself: trial and error.
    when i first started raiding with my guild, we would spent HOURS on escort before we managed to get the kill. we didnt give up. we analyzed our gameplay, builds, squad compositions. and with more time and practice, we improved, moving forward to other bosses.
    it went on like this for MONTHS, and by now we are able to clear every boss within a reasonable time.

    and there comes you, completely unprepaired, expecting me to sacrifice even more of my time to teach you, just so you dont have to spend months on practice.
    it saddens me that people actually have the audacity to make such demands. and that is with hundreds, maybe thousands of players, groups and guilds voluntarily offering training runs already!

    Sure, but my point is that I dont think treating strikes like raids and CMs makes sense and I dont think its a good trend. If anything the rewards should be tweaked so that we all get extra rewards when we DONT exclude people from the squad that are less experienced. Im not sure the best way to do that. Maybe give rank levels like fractals and give people a bonus reward at the end if they group with x number of lower tier people. This would make it more rewarding for experienced people willing to take the time which seems likely to help people who are learning. Win Win. Heck then I bet people wouldn't care anyway about some groups asking for KP. To me it just sounded like a bad trend so I threw my view into the mix. I dont think strikes are all that hard. Im usually able to do them pretty easy with a squad sourced from "X Strike anyone welcome" type messages. Once in a while one may be an issue if we have too many people w like zero damage etc, but I mean even then usually w 2-3 good players you can still do them so I just dont get what your trip is about wanting to support the idea of KP for strikes. It seems really really silly,

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Moradorin.6217 said:
    give rank levels like fractals and give people a bonus reward at the end if they group with x number of lower tier people. This would make it more rewarding for experienced people willing to take the time which seems likely to help people who are learning. Win Win. Heck then I bet people wouldn't care anyway about some groups asking for KP.

    As long as the higher difficulties are more rewarding people are going to flock towards them, creating the same issues we have rn for other content except for those who only care about progressing towards a specific goal given that it can be accomplished by playing the lower difficulties. If you really want to address the issue more effectively you need to have multiple difficulties aimed towards the more general player subgroups which all give out the same rewards making the difficulty more of a choice of gameplay preference than anything else. This way players who don't want to play easier content because they find it boring would have less to worry about some "leeches" dragging down their party while the more casual players wouldn't be "gated" out of the content by these so called "elitists".

  • Moradorin.6217Moradorin.6217 Member ✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Moradorin.6217 said:
    Sure, but my point is that I dont think treating strikes like raids and CMs makes sense and I dont think its a good trend. If anything the rewards should be tweaked so that we all get extra rewards when we DONT exclude people from the squad that are less experienced.

    Out of curiosity, since you started in this thread with a nice big heap of ugly...
    Have you every raided in this game?
    How many strikes have you personally tagged up for and lead?

    Im not sure the best way to do that. Maybe give rank levels like fractals and give people a bonus reward at the end if they group with x number of lower tier people. This would make it more rewarding for experienced people willing to take the time which seems likely to help people who are learning.

    So now it's not "carry me or delete the content", it's "carry me and give me extra loot for being carried"
    Shocking.
    Speaking as someone who has actually run hundreds of "All Welcome" strike squads, do You know what would make running open squads a more rewarding experience?
    -10/10 people reading squad chat.
    -Low performers not rage-quitting after the first unsuccessful pull and actually being willing to learn.
    -A return to the days when it was considered common courtesy to say "I have not done this before, anything I should know?" the moment they join a team
    -Players taking a moment to invest themselves in getting a proper set of exotic gear.
    -An end to threads like these that claim no one is doing what I do and that the patience I am displaying daily actually has value.

    If Anet wants to get involved in helping me help others 2 more blues and a green is not going to do it...
    They can give me a working Gear Check.

    Not exactly sure how this is a response to anything I said, however, I will way in on what you suggest. Yep I would agree I big issue is that many times people try 1-2 times w a squad then drop, another issue is people just not knowing and other people not wanting to wait for new people to get some explanation, etc, etc. That said, what I was trying to get across is most strikes are pretty darn easy, boneskinner really being the only acception. Even whisper is pretty easy as long as people dont spaz all over the place then they are chained, etc. In general, from my experience strikes can be completed without any issue other than boneskinner with 1-3 people who know the strike and have enough DPS to get to the finish line. As I said before, strikes arent that hard, some are actually faceroll easy.

    Not that it actually matters, but I raid a few times a month and I run strikes when I or a friend wants to run them. I dont like doing pve much unless its new content or I have somthing I want from it. I used to be more into pve in years past but it has become pretty boring to me allot of the time.

    Again, I fail to see what you are offering as a solution to the OPs topic. Personally, I think its pretty funny people are asking for kill proof for strikes.

  • @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.

    Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

    Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

  • Moradorin.6217Moradorin.6217 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2020

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Moradorin.6217 said:
    give rank levels like fractals and give people a bonus reward at the end if they group with x number of lower tier people. This would make it more rewarding for experienced people willing to take the time which seems likely to help people who are learning. Win Win. Heck then I bet people wouldn't care anyway about some groups asking for KP.

    As long as the higher difficulties are more rewarding people are going to flock towards them, creating the same issues we have rn for other content except for those who only care about progressing towards a specific goal given that it can be accomplished by playing the lower difficulties. If you really want to address the issue more effectively you need to have multiple difficulties aimed towards the more general player subgroups which all give out the same rewards making the difficulty more of a choice of gameplay preference than anything else. This way players who don't want to play easier content because they find it boring would have less to worry about some "leeches" dragging down their party while the more casual players wouldn't be "gated" out of the content by these so called "elitists".

    Well I dont disagree with what you suggest I just dont understand how that isnt giving strikes and players a strike level or rank of some sort and conditioning rewards to encourage experienced people to either play w less experienced people or do the specifically higher tier of the content, kind of ala fractals. Seems like it would allow what you suggest, which is not locking out new players while also still making it worth it for experienced players.

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited June 10, 2020

    @Hyrai.8720 said:
    how did players learn how to raid when raids were first introduced to gw2? there wasnt anyone to teach them.
    yea, you probably figured it out yourself: trial and error.
    when i first started raiding with my guild, we would spent HOURS on escort before we managed to get the kill. we didnt give up. we analyzed our gameplay, builds, squad compositions. and with more time and practice, we improved, moving forward to other bosses.
    it went on like this for MONTHS, and by now we are able to clear every boss within a reasonable time.

    and there comes you, completely unprepaired, expecting me to sacrifice even more of my time to teach you, just so you dont have to spend months on practice.
    it saddens me that people actually have the audacity to make such demands. and that is with hundreds, maybe thousands of players, groups and guilds voluntarily offering training runs already!

    You can't really compare the early days to what we have now because its just a different community mindset. In the early days of any game, there is incredible tolerance for failure among the community because the optimal strategy hasn't been found yet. Over time, the best or most used strategy becomes public knowledge and defines a metagame. It is no longer a problem that needs to be solved collaboratively. The problem has been solved by other people years ago, you just need to copy the strategy and execute it efficiently.

    This idea is not new to GW2 or even unique to it. Getting into Underworld in GW1 at release was an entirely different thing to getting into Underworld at the height of Terraway, which was essentially an 8 man solo/duo farm. It was much, much harder to start during Terraway meta. It requires a lot of experience with solo/duo farming strats that you will not have and the strategy itself has its own learning curve, because its complex. It didn't pop into existence in a day - it is the evolution and amalgamation of many Underworld farming strats over many years.

    Guild Wars 1 and 2 are really the only multiplayer games I have revisited over a long period of time. Most of the time, I like to start over in open beta and collaboratively solve game logic problems with other people, like how you did when you got into raiding in the early days. Literally everyone you ran into had the same mindset but later on, differences emerge in the knowledge, ability and goals of each player and you get this kind of friction. Raid training is sort of necessary to stop the game mode dying entirely in the medium to long term.

  • kanemi.4903kanemi.4903 Member ✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @kanemi.4903 said:

    @kmfart.7480 said:
    The root of the problem is that a few of the strike missions are way too harsh, that they are even harder than a few of the raids. That is exactly what they were not meant to be like.

    But then we will come to the 'too easy' problem.

    That's a problem which could be avoided by Arenanet implementing multiple difficulty options.

    Are we talking about 'Normal' and 'Hard' difficult modes?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @kanemi.4903 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @kanemi.4903 said:

    @kmfart.7480 said:
    The root of the problem is that a few of the strike missions are way too harsh, that they are even harder than a few of the raids. That is exactly what they were not meant to be like.

    But then we will come to the 'too easy' problem.

    That's a problem which could be avoided by Arenanet implementing multiple difficulty options.

    Are we talking about 'Normal' and 'Hard' difficult modes?

    easy, easier and dont forget zero challenge kinda like bound by blood story aswell mate.

  • trixantea.1230trixantea.1230 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    If someone feels confident in their skills/build and won't be a burden on the group, he can simply fake KP and join any group he likes.

    As for a hard/easy difficulty implementation, we already have this same issue with raids and what I learned from raid threads is the fact that many elitist players will gank up the forums to defend the toxicity that deprived the majoriy from exploring this content let alone learn how to play it.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @kanemi.4903 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @kanemi.4903 said:

    @kmfart.7480 said:
    The root of the problem is that a few of the strike missions are way too harsh, that they are even harder than a few of the raids. That is exactly what they were not meant to be like.

    But then we will come to the 'too easy' problem.

    That's a problem which could be avoided by Arenanet implementing multiple difficulty options.

    Are we talking about 'Normal' and 'Hard' difficult modes?

    easy, easier and dont forget zero challenge kinda like bound by blood story aswell mate.

    I'm sure some found the Bound by Blood story too challenging, same with Shiverpeaks Pass, I've read around the forums that some groups even managed to fail THAT.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    That's a problem which could be avoided by Arenanet implementing multiple difficulty options.

    They already did add multiple difficulty options by making Strikes of different difficulty levels.

    There is one difficulty option per Strike Mission.
    Why not have two or three per Strike Mission?

    This could please the people who want Shiverpeaks Pass to be harder, the people who want Boneskinner to be easier and the people with wishes in between.

    My guildies (who do not clear raids or run t4 fractals) actually started with the easy strikes - Shiverpeaks, Fraenir, bears. Once they started feeling comfortable with those, they began doing Whisper and Boneskinner. Did not take them too long to learn, and even though the dps is not raid level, our guild groups can now comfortably do the hardest strike missions and understand the mechanics. It's not rocket science. Theyve also got a big confidence boost from being able to survive Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag, and it has gotten some of them into raiding and coming up with more helpful build variety and improving themselves as players.

    It's good news that they are apperently fulfilling their purpose for some people. :)

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.

    Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

    Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    Their are training raids however. Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Moradorin.6217 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Moradorin.6217 said:
    give rank levels like fractals and give people a bonus reward at the end if they group with x number of lower tier people. This would make it more rewarding for experienced people willing to take the time which seems likely to help people who are learning. Win Win. Heck then I bet people wouldn't care anyway about some groups asking for KP.

    As long as the higher difficulties are more rewarding people are going to flock towards them, creating the same issues we have rn for other content except for those who only care about progressing towards a specific goal given that it can be accomplished by playing the lower difficulties. If you really want to address the issue more effectively you need to have multiple difficulties aimed towards the more general player subgroups which all give out the same rewards making the difficulty more of a choice of gameplay preference than anything else. This way players who don't want to play easier content because they find it boring would have less to worry about some "leeches" dragging down their party while the more casual players wouldn't be "gated" out of the content by these so called "elitists".

    Well I dont disagree with what you suggest I just dont understand how that isnt giving strikes and players a strike level or rank of some sort and conditioning rewards to encourage experienced people to either play w less experienced people or do the specifically higher tier of the content, kind of ala fractals. Seems like it would allow what you suggest, which is not locking out new players while also still making it worth it for experienced players.

    The problem is not that easy to be solved by using rewards. Would've been solved, even for other scenarios and games if it is. Be it Raids, WvW etc. Even Fractals, a content with tiered difficulties and rewards, same issue exist. Strike is just another content facing the same issue. Can only conclude the problem is not Strike.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    Why do I get the feeling even if they implemented easy/hard mode Strikes people would still just ask for LI requirements because farming Easy Strikes in an efficient and timely manner still has that DPS requirement? Making it effectively impossible for Boneskinner to wipe the group to get you the loot would still bring out folks not wanting to run with players who do 2-3k DPS on average.

    The categorical issue that plagues GW2 to this day is a simple lack of in-game explanation of basic mechanics, there's no wild 'achievement' doing some activity that involves having DPS gear and a good rotation. It really should have been established during the leveling process, or hell, maybe throwing out this old archaic idea, WoW used to do 'Attunements' or tasks you had to perform in order to even do certain raids in that game. That could have been a tutorial or refresher for players to become educated on what they would need to do, ask questions, see if they can get the task done, etc.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    WoW used to do 'Attunements' or tasks you had to perform in order to even do certain raids in that game.

    Actually WoW's attempt to address the issue at hand here (the disparity between performance in "dedicated" players and those less so) is the Corruption system.
    This is not an issue specific to Guild Wars 2 as many of the replies spouting false rhetoric in this thread claim.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • TwinFrozr.6214TwinFrozr.6214 Member ✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.

    Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

    Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    Their are training raids however.

    I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

    Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?

    Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

    Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

    Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.

    Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

    Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    Their are training raids however.

    I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

    That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

    Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

    Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?

    Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

    Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

    Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

    The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

    The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

    Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?

  • TwinFrozr.6214TwinFrozr.6214 Member ✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.

    Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

    Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    Their are training raids however.

    I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

    That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

    Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

    If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

    Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

    Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?

    Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

    Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

    Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

    The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

    The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

    Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?

    You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

    Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

    The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.