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Li / Killproof for Strikes are a Problem

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  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    Selling in game stuff and services for in game gold is fine and should actually be encouraged.

  • I don't agree with the op. Requirements are a cornerstone of pugs and securing a decent run that is considerate of all people's time. Some times we run no req lfg sometimes we do. To win the argument you would have to propose that training every single newbie for every strike is a not only good ,but feasible and respectful of the group's time. A requirement is nothing more than a steeper hill when skiing. Can you go down these paths as a newbie? Is it recommended ? No . What are the consequences of failure ? Kicked or broken bones. What might solve the problem is frac style gate keeping. It's not perfect but at least it is something.

    Regards

  • Maria Murtor.7253Maria Murtor.7253 Member ✭✭✭

    I have seen everything in this game now.

  • I saw an engineer only squad yesterday (or the day before) in LFG. I wonder if it ever filled and was it as amazing as it sounded...

  • TwinFrozr.6214TwinFrozr.6214 Member ✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.

    Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

    Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    Their are training raids however.

    I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

    That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

    Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

    If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

    Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

    Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

    It's important how this gets communicated though.

    You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

    Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?

    Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

    Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

    Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

    The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

    The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

    Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?

    You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

    Or their are people making gold based on skill and the desinterest of some people to do some content.

    Do you have a problem with mesmers asking gold for jp ports?

    Yes, if the case was that you would need a group to complete the puzzle, and the mesmer would kick you if you fail Not So Secret without a single flaw in under 90 seconds.
    No, as the mesmer can't ever affect your option of completing the puzzle yourself.

    Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

    We'll last I checked full ascended was not a req for raid training.

    Secondly, the right to choose who you play with works in all directions. And nobody is blocking access to any part of the game. (you can make your own groups for example)

    From what you're saying, I must have been highly unfortunate with my raid group infos (sorry for going a little OT with raids, as this thread is about strikes, or what strikes is about to become). Afaik, ascended and meta has more or less always been a minor requirement.

    And no, I don't choose who to play with. I rarely have 9 friends online, interested in the same thing at the same time, all at level 80 with good gear and patience, to fill up a squad. Then we wouldn't have this problem.

    The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.

    OK so they let confirmation and selection bias create their perception of a community they haven't met.

    Does that seem reasonable to you?

    Totally. A kittenhead is a kittenhead, whether they slaughter their beloved or cuddle with their cat. As I said, just the titles where they judge who are welcome and not, with the general climate in pseudo-elitist areas in mind, is enough. One simply compare the likeliness of one thing to another - it's hard to ignore your own experience.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

    It's important how this gets communicated though.

    You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

    That lfg trainings for you. And the reason why very few decent raiders will run pug trainings. Its always a total kitten show with people who dont know how to play their class complaining you wont let them join and experienced players complaining about it if you do. Also you need to do around 10k dps minimum to pull your own weight in most raids. 8k isnt that far off but when you consider most average raiders do 15-20k and good ones do 30k you can see why its a bit of a problem. You are essentially doing the same dps as a support chrono. I probably would, and have in the past, complained about dps players who do less dps than the supports, and i dont think thats elitist, since they basically arent doing the job they joined as.

    In a raid training is not the time nor place to learn how to dps properly and its not really the commanders job to teach you that either. thats something you should know before entering a raid. Good commanders will give you tips though.

    If you seriously want to get into raids, just join a guild. There are plenty out there who will happily take you and you save yourself alot of stress and headaches.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    The worst parts of this community are gathered in this very thread.

    Amen.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.

    Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

    Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    Their are training raids however.

    I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

    That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

    Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

    If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

    Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

    Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

    It's important how this gets communicated though.

    You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

    Their was no commander in the squad?

    Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?

    Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

    Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

    Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

    The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

    The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

    Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?

    You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

    Or their are people making gold based on skill and the desinterest of some people to do some content.

    Do you have a problem with mesmers asking gold for jp ports?

    Yes, if the case was that you would need a group to complete the puzzle, and the mesmer would kick you if you fail Not So Secret without a single flaw in under 90 seconds.
    No, as the mesmer can't ever affect your option of completing the puzzle yourself.

    The raidseller also can't effect you're ability to complete, you can make you're own squads. Now i have to agree that a commander tag helps a lot. But thats why guilds can help a lot.

    Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

    We'll last I checked full ascended was not a req for raid training.

    Secondly, the right to choose who you play with works in all directions. And nobody is blocking access to any part of the game. (you can make your own groups for example)

    From what you're saying, I must have been highly unfortunate with my raid group infos (sorry for going a little OT with raids, as this thread is about strikes, or what strikes is about to become). Afaik, ascended and meta has more or less always been a minor requirement.

    In the raid training initiative (a discord and guild they expect a metabuild but don't expect full ascended , weapons and trinkets are encouraged and theirs an expectation that people don't come with full rare.)

    And no, I don't choose who to play with. I rarely have 9 friends online, interested in the same thing at the same time, all at level 80 with good gear and patience, to fill up a squad. Then we wouldn't have this problem.

    Thats why you open an lfg and filter for what you need. VG training- friendly people only-...

    The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.

    OK so they let confirmation and selection bias create their perception of a community they haven't met.

    Does that seem reasonable to you?

    Totally. A kittenhead is a kittenhead, whether they slaughter their beloved or cuddle with their cat. As I said, just the titles where they judge who are welcome and not, with the general climate in pseudo-elitist areas in mind, is enough. One simply compare the likeliness of one thing to another - it's hard to ignore your own experience.

    Honestly this makes my blood boil. This reasoning gets used to excuse so much atrocities. Even if all raiders where the worst people alive and you're completely right, judging people you haven't met because you think confirmation and selection bias aren't problem is just wrong.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    I do think asking for LI in Strike content is a little silly seeing how Strikes aren't even that hard but preventing them from being silly is a bit tyrannical. Like others have said make your own group and revel in the "Beginners welcome" spirit if that's the energy you want to be around. I know it is for me so I seek out the same. I was in a group that said EXP REQ GOOD DPS but then said the person who did the lowest dps would get kicked (which was me) which is a very off way to treat the group especially when it was just Shiverpeak Pass.
    Raiders obviously are bored from the lack of raids and rewards so they are descending on Strikes (almost going the opposite of what was intended with strikes). Beating the boss a minute or less faster and for one extra chest is not the greatest reason to act elitist but lets just avoid those people.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    @Moradorin.6217 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    Lowering the Loot for everyone isnt helping much tbh. Thats just making strikes useless for everyone :)
    They should just remove the KP Items or ban the process in lfg at all.
    Maybe an Easy and Hard Mode then?

    If they remove kps then how would top raiders know how to get a good group?
    Easy and hardmode scenario would be like the discussions for ez and hard mode for raids

    who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience. I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn. I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

    Bottom line: People who think it should have KP so they can 100% avoid new players should go find a new game. THis is a community game and its more than just getting the most loot in the least time. People who only care about that are in the wrong game anyway, its not like gw2 offers good loot. I mean its more efficient to work and hour and buy gold w gems if you just want loot go get a job.

    We had someone in game doing low DPS and one person was like WHY ARE YOU DOING SUCH LOW DPS?!?!?!? Active dps shaming is kinda sad. Teaching them (hello mentor tag up) is a much more useful tool. Saying to him "hey its more efficient in the group if you had these certain stats with this certain level of XYZ" and let them know Strikes are not exactly bounties and need more coordination, practice and minimum requirments- which I might add ANET has not told any of these new players that THAT is what is best in this MMO. People literally have to figure it out for themselves and some things get lost in the cracks. I literally had a group of raiders DPS shame me who had no food or utility buffs on. Yup. We all just need to have fun and the "loot" is not worth the elitism or the stress.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    Saying to him "hey its more efficient in the group if you had these certain stats with this certain level of XYZ" and let them know Strikes are not exactly bounties and need more coordination, practice and minimum requirments

    I think people underestimate how often this is met with hostility rather than thanks or acceptance.

    Well we've read posts around these forums that someone needs to ask for permission before giving such advice. Even if it's something really obvious

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    I think people underestimate how often this is met with hostility rather than thanks or acceptance.

    Text doesn't convey tone but either one of them barking at anyone is inappropriate. I think taking the high road is better overall even if people turn hostile. Me feeling embarrassed and angry that I was ignorant about something is a much more remedial place to be in then being called an idiot and DPS shamed.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    I think people underestimate how often this is met with hostility rather than thanks or acceptance.

    Text doesn't convey tone but either one of them barking at anyone is inappropriate. I think taking the high road is better overall even if people turn hostile. Me feeling embarrassed and angry that I was ignorant about something is a much more remedial place to be in then being called an idiot and DPS shamed.

    But taking the high road and removing the toxicity from the group ends up spouting threads along the lines of trying to vilify those who attempted to help them and branding them toxic elitists.

    You experienced something bad. Sorry to hear. But that in no way was my point.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    I saw an engineer only squad yesterday (or the day before) in LFG. I wonder if it ever filled and was it as amazing as it sounded...

    Squads and parties like that are actually extremely fun. Don't worry about whether it fills up or not - just let us have our fun!

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Maria Murtor.7253 said:
    I have seen everything in this game now.

    Really?
    Also today on GW2 LFG...

    Love the Asuran LFG :lol:. Would've joined and said "It's a small world".

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2020

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:
    You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

    making someone aware of his below average dps i perfectly fine during a training. though its not enough to just say "your dps is 8k, thats too low." - in that case the commander shouldve referred to one of the many websites that offer builds and rotations so you know how to improve your dps.
    During your training you probably noticed that most raid encounters have an "enrage timer". Once that timer hits 0, the boss goes in enrage mode, sometimes making it impossible to finish the boss even for experienced groups. If everyone on the squad did 8k dps, most bosses will not be dead before that. that alone should be reason enough for you to learn your rotation and improve your dps.

    After all you had 1.5h to get a feeling for the boss' mechanics, didnt you? so those 1.5h are not wasted.
    If you consider them wasted just because you didnt get the kill that shows that you do not have the attitude needed to play this content succesfully, and the raiding community is better off without you.

    edit:
    it also should be mentioned that not all training squads are the same. a lot of them expect you to learn your rotation and do decent dps before joining them, so they can focus on learning how to execute mechanics.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:
    I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    The worst parts of this community name-call, hyperbolize, tell others the aren't playing the game right, and make up fake numbers to support arguments without logic or basis in reality.
    The worst parts of this community make blanket statements about content they have never/barely accessed, and use sock-puppet arguments about their "friends" rather than speaking for themselves.
    The worst parts of this community talk about what's "good for the game" while having zero data to back up their claims and invoke the word "community" as if others who don't align with them do not belong.

    The worst parts of this community are gathered in this very thread.

    I notice that my previous comment took its toll on you quite badly. Apologies, it was really nothing personal.

    I don't get what you're trying to say with your gibberish about "logic". Do you understand what logic is? Then answer the following:

    • What logically says a player absolutely can't do 8,000 dps, especially if it's a low number?
    • What logically says one person's experience is worth more than the same person plus his/her friends (or, as for not offending you, a random number of randomized known people) together?
    • What logically says one must have a specific amount of experience of one specific subject, before forming a personal opinion; and that every subject similar or equal is irrelevant?
    • How high is that experience level, and what logically says it makes you experienced enough for your own personal opinion?
    • What logically says you, out of millions of players, are the only right to judge the above?
    • And if so, why would you logically reply to something you've already predetermined as fake?

    I'm getting the impression that you honestly believe you're the only physical person playing this game. Every player and every thing you haven't seen hasn't happen. There are no friends because there are no players. Neither can't there be any dps. And, most importantly, as the combined value of opinion decrease with the amount of people agreeing, your opinion is worth more than the entire world's together. Either that, or you're extremely biased towards your personal preconception (which is fully understandable; as we human beings have a natural tendency/bias to agree with everything that's in our own favor). Alternatively, which is actually pretty obvious, you're trolling.

    Anyhow, from your opinion I understand the worst parts of "this" (subject is Guild Wars 2, i.e. the game; not Guild Wars 2 forum, some Guild Wars 2 subforum or this thread) community are;

    • players who can think and make statements on their own
    • players who have a different experience than you
    • players who can make up and discuss theoretical arguments without "proving" anything (I mean, really? What do you expect me to do? Posting my DPS? Posting screenshots of my contact list? Making videos with IRL contacts playing the game? Would you do that yourself? What would that even change?)
    • players who would reconsider the stupidity of jumping a deep well, if they have experienced others jump a ground well and die
    • players who back statements up with examples, for instance trustworthy contacts (I deeply apologize for your misunderstanding of a friend)
    • players who base an argument on 100% life experience (i.e. opinion), and no scientificial research, so that you actually have to put words in their mouth to make drama.

    I've seen much, but this is interesting.

  • @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.

    Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

    Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    Their are training raids however.

    I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

    That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

    Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

    If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

    Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

    Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

    It's important how this gets communicated though.

    You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

    Their was no commander in the squad?

    I really can't remember, sorry. Haven't played a raid in 2 or 3 years now.

    Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?

    Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

    Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

    Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

    The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

    The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

    Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?

    You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

    Or their are people making gold based on skill and the desinterest of some people to do some content.

    Do you have a problem with mesmers asking gold for jp ports?

    Yes, if the case was that you would need a group to complete the puzzle, and the mesmer would kick you if you fail Not So Secret without a single flaw in under 90 seconds.
    No, as the mesmer can't ever affect your option of completing the puzzle yourself.

    The raidseller also can't effect you're ability to complete, you can make you're own squads. Now i have to agree that a commander tag helps a lot. But thats why guilds can help a lot.

    Yes, of course. I must have misjudged the number of raid sellers though, perhaps they showed in some open world LFG and I noticed them there. Just want raid purchases as an option, not a requirement.

    Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

    We'll last I checked full ascended was not a req for raid training.

    Secondly, the right to choose who you play with works in all directions. And nobody is blocking access to any part of the game. (you can make your own groups for example)

    From what you're saying, I must have been highly unfortunate with my raid group infos (sorry for going a little OT with raids, as this thread is about strikes, or what strikes is about to become). Afaik, ascended and meta has more or less always been a minor requirement.

    In the raid training initiative (a discord and guild they expect a metabuild but don't expect full ascended , weapons and trinkets are encouraged and theirs an expectation that people don't come with full rare.)

    And no, I don't choose who to play with. I rarely have 9 friends online, interested in the same thing at the same time, all at level 80 with good gear and patience, to fill up a squad. Then we wouldn't have this problem.

    Thats why you open an lfg and filter for what you need. VG training- friendly people only-...

    The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.

    OK so they let confirmation and selection bias create their perception of a community they haven't met.

    Does that seem reasonable to you?

    Totally. A kittenhead is a kittenhead, whether they slaughter their beloved or cuddle with their cat. As I said, just the titles where they judge who are welcome and not, with the general climate in pseudo-elitist areas in mind, is enough. One simply compare the likeliness of one thing to another - it's hard to ignore your own experience.

    Honestly this makes my blood boil. This reasoning gets used to excuse so much atrocities. Even if all raiders where the worst people alive and you're completely right, judging people you haven't met because you think confirmation and selection bias aren't problem is just wrong.

    Thanks for the tips.

    The community and the pseudo-elitism is on the same level, though. It's correct I haven't been there much, but if you already know the worst-scenario climate in PvP and WvW, and get that in your very first runs, combined with it being the absolutely most kittenhole-oriented content in the game, you have to be both blind and dead not to realize the outcome.

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

    It's important how this gets communicated though.

    You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

    That lfg trainings for you. And the reason why very few decent raiders will run pug trainings. Its always a total kitten show with people who dont know how to play their class complaining you wont let them join and experienced players complaining about it if you do. Also you need to do around 10k dps minimum to pull your own weight in most raids. 8k isnt that far off but when you consider most average raiders do 15-20k and good ones do 30k you can see why its a bit of a problem. You are essentially doing the same dps as a support chrono. I probably would, and have in the past, complained about dps players who do less dps than the supports, and i dont think thats elitist, since they basically arent doing the job they joined as.

    In a raid training is not the time nor place to learn how to dps properly and its not really the commanders job to teach you that either. thats something you should know before entering a raid. Good commanders will give you tips though.

    If you seriously want to get into raids, just join a guild. There are plenty out there who will happily take you and you save yourself alot of stress and headaches.

    Thanks for the tips from you as well :)

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.

    Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

    Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    Their are training raids however.

    I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

    That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

    Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

    If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

    Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

    Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

    It's important how this gets communicated though.

    You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

    Their was no commander in the squad?

    I really can't remember, sorry. Haven't played a raid in 2 or 3 years now.

    To bad, If their is a commander in the squad you play then that commander can decide everything. So in that case the comm can kick the toxic people for example.
    You do need a comm you trust ofcourse. :)

    Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?

    Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

    Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

    Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

    The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

    The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

    Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?

    You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

    Or their are people making gold based on skill and the desinterest of some people to do some content.

    Do you have a problem with mesmers asking gold for jp ports?

    Yes, if the case was that you would need a group to complete the puzzle, and the mesmer would kick you if you fail Not So Secret without a single flaw in under 90 seconds.
    No, as the mesmer can't ever affect your option of completing the puzzle yourself.

    The raidseller also can't effect you're ability to complete, you can make you're own squads. Now i have to agree that a commander tag helps a lot. But thats why guilds can help a lot.

    Yes, of course. I must have misjudged the number of raid sellers though, perhaps they showed in some open world LFG and I noticed them there. Just want raid purchases as an option, not a requirement.

    Can i ask you to elaborate on this point, because i have no idea what you mean by raid purchases as a requirement?

    Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

    We'll last I checked full ascended was not a req for raid training.

    Secondly, the right to choose who you play with works in all directions. And nobody is blocking access to any part of the game. (you can make your own groups for example)

    From what you're saying, I must have been highly unfortunate with my raid group infos (sorry for going a little OT with raids, as this thread is about strikes, or what strikes is about to become). Afaik, ascended and meta has more or less always been a minor requirement.

    In the raid training initiative (a discord and guild they expect a metabuild but don't expect full ascended , weapons and trinkets are encouraged and theirs an expectation that people don't come with full rare.)

    And no, I don't choose who to play with. I rarely have 9 friends online, interested in the same thing at the same time, all at level 80 with good gear and patience, to fill up a squad. Then we wouldn't have this problem.

    Thats why you open an lfg and filter for what you need. VG training- friendly people only-...

    The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.

    OK so they let confirmation and selection bias create their perception of a community they haven't met.

    Does that seem reasonable to you?

    Totally. A kittenhead is a kittenhead, whether they slaughter their beloved or cuddle with their cat. As I said, just the titles where they judge who are welcome and not, with the general climate in pseudo-elitist areas in mind, is enough. One simply compare the likeliness of one thing to another - it's hard to ignore your own experience.

    Honestly this makes my blood boil. This reasoning gets used to excuse so much atrocities. Even if all raiders where the worst people alive and you're completely right, judging people you haven't met because you think confirmation and selection bias aren't problem is just wrong.

    Thanks for the tips.

    The community and the pseudo-elitism is on the same level, though. It's correct I haven't been there much, but if you already know the worst-scenario climate in PvP and WvW, and get that in your very first runs, combined with it being the absolutely most kittenhole-oriented content in the game, you have to be both blind and dead not to realize the outcome.

    You're welcome. :)

    But how do you know that that isn't also the worst case scenario in raids? Like i won't deny that their are toxic people in raids, but to me i've met more toxic people in open world (or 1 person who has way to much free time). But to me the problem wasn't that you think the raidcommunity is toxic. it was about HOW you and you're friends got that information/idea.

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

    It's important how this gets communicated though.

    You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

    That lfg trainings for you. And the reason why very few decent raiders will run pug trainings. Its always a total kitten show with people who dont know how to play their class complaining you wont let them join and experienced players complaining about it if you do. Also you need to do around 10k dps minimum to pull your own weight in most raids. 8k isnt that far off but when you consider most average raiders do 15-20k and good ones do 30k you can see why its a bit of a problem. You are essentially doing the same dps as a support chrono. I probably would, and have in the past, complained about dps players who do less dps than the supports, and i dont think thats elitist, since they basically arent doing the job they joined as.

    In a raid training is not the time nor place to learn how to dps properly and its not really the commanders job to teach you that either. thats something you should know before entering a raid. Good commanders will give you tips though.

    If you seriously want to get into raids, just join a guild. There are plenty out there who will happily take you and you save yourself alot of stress and headaches.

    Thanks for the tips from you as well :)

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    Allow me to express another avenue of thought that's perhaps not been brought up at least in this thread.

    What if LI/Killproof for strikes isn't a problem but the symptom of a problem? It's entirely within reason for players to make up their own requirements in the looking for group, but the question that's been brought up is why they are asking for such presumptuously 'high' requirements for necessarily easier content?

    The real crux of issues here is that GW2 still have such a gap in playerbase skill that the only reasoned approach to getting players more attuned to the higher end of PvE content is to ask for a token showing a lot of time invested in Raids aka '250 LI'. The chances of someone having 250 LI and doing about as bad as the typical open world PvE player is slim to none, the only instance I can consider is someone with a LOT of gold buying all those LIs which means getting kills, raid currency, raid drops, why would they care about strikes that much, it's such a small hypothetical. With such experienced players, the squad could do probably any of the strikes, likely all of them even the more difficult ones without too much issue.

    Being able to one-shot all the encounters rather than go through it at least 2-3 times per one is a massive time-saver, time which I think every GW2 likes to have back.

    Unfortunately at this time there's still not enough of a solution out there to assist getting the baseline skill of the entire 'motivated' GW2 playerbase who are interested in instanced content across the board to teach them how to do dps, or their roles.

    If you want to resolve the issue with players putting in such 'high' requirements, instead of demanding them to change perhaps it would be better suited to ask Arenanet to provide a proper leveling tutorial or maybe story instances that have you 'pretend' to be geared out doing certain attacks or cooldowns properly. There's certainly ideas out there, or one could simply learn to deal with those LFGs and join another, or heaven-forbid, one would take the initiative to get those LIs themselves.

  • @Sykper.6583 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:
    I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    The worst parts of this community name-call, hyperbolize, tell others the aren't playing the game right, and make up fake numbers to support arguments without logic or basis in reality.
    The worst parts of this community make blanket statements about content they have never/barely accessed, and use sock-puppet arguments about their "friends" rather than speaking for themselves.
    The worst parts of this community talk about what's "good for the game" while having zero data to back up their claims and invoke the word "community" as if others who don't align with them do not belong.

    The worst parts of this community are gathered in this very thread.

    I notice that my previous comment took its toll on you quite badly. Apologies, it was really nothing personal.

    Was just keeping tabs on this thread really but...

    This comment and the entirety of the gibberish below it are deflections, obtuse at best.

    Yet another vague troll reply. Obtuse deflections?

    If it's not already ironic you are attempting to make blanket statements about Circus's comment when it was just pointed out that's exactly one of the many types of toxic players in this game, I don't know what to say other than your dishonestly is showing here.

    First, there were no definite statements in my reply. I diffidently interpreted what was actually written, as it appeared ill-informed and outrageously anti-logical (which is ironic if anything; trolls going on about logic, seriously :3)

    Second; if quoters try shaming, I have the indubitable right to defend myself and question it, regardless of your opinion. It's essential to recall that you are no authority of the matter, and that your view is irrelevant. Likewise, neither questioning nor having a different view than you equals something even close to "dishonesty". Question yourself, what do you do on a forum if you have such complications with questioning?

    If you happen to know better, go ahead and post at least one example to support your statements, instead of trying to hate whatever you find so massively difficult to understand.

    You already know precisely the argument Circus is making with all of this, the LI/Killproofs for strikes isn't an issue, players are asking for experience not at all dissimilar to a resume when you join the raid, you are getting a job to do with the team.

    I don't care about his/her/its opinions of assaults. It's downright extraneous, which is also pathetically easy to understand. If somebody cite me about the community, I'll reply about the community. If somebody cite me about bugs, I'll reply about bugs. If somebody cite me about Pamela Anderson, I'll reply about Pamela Anderson. I don't reply about strikes, LFG, attainment wads, steamrolling, farming, raiding, making, drinking, snoozing, feeding your momma's dog, or something else when I get quoted about the community, for profusely palpable matters. Go figure, and we can evade discussing certainties.

    Moreover, I know what I understand perpetually greater than you will ever pipedream to do. You may not comprehend that, but hey, that's not my problem.

    The arrogant ones demanding the requirements to be adjusted to their needs are people who don't match the resume, not even a little bit. Let alone attempting to take initiative themselves to create their own strike requirements that suit their own needs, they would rather try leeching off the efforts of the squad leader and adversely impacting the rest of the squad team's job.

    I haven't assumed whatever about that. What I have alleged however, is that if strikes touch a level of a potentially redundant pseudo-elitistic raid mesosphere, Anet must sip the bang and fight the inferno back.

    So allow me to turn the question back, are you trolling or are you actually unaware that sometimes, people would like certain things from people who join their groups?

    Trolling or not; if you have a mouse, with a scroll wheel, and know how to use it, yet another answer lies right within the treasury behind ;)

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anyone who insists on mentioning their lack of time and how they actually happen to have a real life and all that should be able to sympathize with those with similar time issues. They should understand that any safety net is welcome when you are trying to ensure your already limited time isn't completely wasted on failed runs. People take steps such as having a static or a long list of friends and guildies to call for help, and they find themselves forced to use silly things such as KPs.

    You could have easily taken similar steps to find those like-minded people you are looking for. Seems a lot more sensible than selfishly trying to force your will on others.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • @Sykper.6583 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:
    Yet another vague troll reply. Obtuse deflections?

    Oh absolutely.
    Providing irrelevant questions under the premise for 'logical questions' is bluntly clear. But perhaps you were being sincere? Let's go through them (though all deflect away from Circus's points):

    Yes ma'am, your questions are completely irrelevant as long as you don't specify them. Forum basics taken to the extreme. Thanks for quoting properly.

    • What logically says a player absolutely can't do 8,000 dps, especially if it's a low number? Depends entirely on the context, but this random number generated by you can be interpreted differently by someone playing a class known to do probably 10000 through simple auto-attacks. Whereas someone built to endure a lot of punishment without the right weapon will never hit this number.

    Which, if anything, verifies my point that any player can do 8,000 dps pretty easily. So no reason not to believe that if not genuinely trolling.

    • What logically says one person's experience is worth more than the same person plus his/her friends (or, as for not offending you, a random number of randomized known people) together? What a silly statement, if you are being sincere I assume you might have erred, as 1 < 1+x in any logical sense.

    If you want further replies, step up your game matey.

    • What logically says one must have a specific amount of experience of one specific subject, before forming a personal opinion; and that every subject similar or equal is irrelevant? This is where I'm going to borrow Cyninja's term of one having a 'qualified opinion' versus just an 'opinion'. Knowing how to be a fisherman does not give you a qualified opinion on how to do an electrician's job. Society absolutely puts more faith in people who know what they are talking about.

    This if anything verifies my previous point. You don't necessarily have to know your job (raids/WvW) to know your colleagues (pseudo-elitists).

    • How high is that experience level, and what logically says it makes you experienced enough for your own personal opinion? I'm actually going to provide a very specific answer to this one, mainly because it's pretty general. The experience level is literally getting your first raid kill I would argue, the bare minimum. Which seems to be an excessively, grueling task according to the forum complaints.

    Okay. Then you've already forgotten what "Circus" said in the comment you're defending:
    The worst parts of this community make blanket statements about content they have never/barely accessed

    "A few runs" are not enough for him, yet one kill is enough for you...? How'd you want it?

    • What logically says you, out of millions of players, are the only right to judge the above? And this is where you attempt to twist back to Mindcircus, the statements he is saying aren't a 'him' thing. This is a blatant deflection.

    So that's a no on Mindcircus' behalf? Hahaha man, let him speak for himself.

    • And if so, why would you logically reply to something you've already predetermined as fake? Because misinformation is the bane of logic.

    Misinformation is better than no information. And if you knew logic, you could simply use your brain, and see that it's not all that hard to have a friend or do 8,000 dps in Guild Wars 2.

    First, there were no definite statements in my reply. I diffidently interpreted what was actually written, as it appeared ill-informed and outrageously anti-logical (which is ironic if anything; trolls going on about logic, seriously :3)

    I'm getting the impression that you honestly believe you're the only physical person playing this game. Every player and every thing you haven't seen hasn't happen. There are no friends because there are no players. Neither can't there be any dps. And, most importantly, as the combined value of opinion decrease with the amount of people agreeing, your opinion is worth more than the entire world's together. Either that, or you're extremely biased towards your personal preconception (which is fully understandable; as we human beings have a natural tendency/bias to agree with everything that's in our own favor). Alternatively, which is actually pretty obvious, you're trolling.
    Yep, you certainly aren't being direct, it's just difficult not pointing out when someone pulls out a strange liquid to pour into a well.

    "I'm getting the impression" is not a definite statement.
    "Either that, or" is not a definite statement.
    "Alternatively" is not a definite statement.

    You're too blinded by your own hate to manage a logical conversation.

    Second; if quoters try shaming, I have the indubitable right to defend myself and question it, regardless of your opinion. It's essential to recall that you are no authority of the matter, and that your view is irrelevant. Likewise, neither questioning nor having a different view than you equals something even close to "dishonesty". Question yourself, what do you do on a forum if you have such complications with questioning?

    I 100% agree you should defend yourself. I'm entirely aware that my points before were completely aggressive. What I find most telling, and logically insufficient, from your reasoning is easily how you already believe I have no authority on the matter and my view is irrelevant. I definitely am no mod, I certainly do possess the equal rights as you to post on the forums, maintain a discussion or throw a fit or talk about cats. But to insist views from users are irrelevant? That blows away the entire purpose of these forums, where people provide varied levels of stances on things. And as mentioned before, where discourse becomes more important is who has the more qualified opinion?

    Of course your opinion about the defensiveness of my post is irrelevant. Give me one single reason to care? I didn't talk about the thread, or I would have mentioned that while quoting a completely different chunk of text. I'm very sorry for that part being unclear.

    As a side note to you, and everyone else in this thread, please quit taking the context of every word for granted. I'm not even a native English speaker, sometimes stuff might get wrong.

    If you happen to know better, go ahead and post at least one example to support your statements, instead of trying to hate whatever you find so massively difficult to understand.

    Refer to above quote from you setting up Circus as egotistical, naive, and/or a troll which I can only assume you think is constructive?

    Again, there are no definite statements. I'm questioning the absurdity of the reply, and whether it's even possible to have such a lop-sided view of reality (or in this case, not even reality, but a game community)

    I don't care about his/her/its opinions of assaults. It's downright extraneous, which is also pathetically easy to understand. If somebody cite me about the community, I'll reply about the community. If somebody cite me about bugs, I'll reply about bugs. If somebody cite me about Pamela Anderson, I'll reply about Pamela Anderson. I don't reply about strikes, LFG, attainment wads, steamrolling, farming, raiding, making, drinking, snoozing, feeding your momma's dog, or something else when I get quoted about the community, for profusely palpable matters. Go figure, and we can evade discussing certainties.

    You must be fun at parties.

    Moreover, I know what I understand perpetually greater than you will ever pipedream to do. You may not comprehend that, but hey, that's not my problem.

    And here I thought I had an ego.

    I haven't assumed whatever about that. What I have alleged however, is that if strikes touch a level of a potentially redundant pseudo-elitistic raid mesosphere, Anet must sip the bang and fight the inferno back.

    Or they don't? Perhaps like literally every other facet of that lovely LFG tool they can let sleeping dogs lie?

    Trolling or not; if you have a mouse, with a scroll wheel, and know how to use it, yet another answer lies right within the treasury behind ;)

    Definitely fun at parties.

    Thanks for verifying our prejudications. Time to step up from this nonsense.

  • TwinFrozr.6214TwinFrozr.6214 Member ✭✭
    edited June 17, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    To bad, If their is a commander in the squad you play then that commander can decide everything. So in that case the comm can kick the toxic people for example.
    You do need a comm you trust ofcourse. :)

    Yeah. Our commander gave up when enough left, if memory serves correctly. Long ago.

    Can i ask you to elaborate on this point, because i have no idea what you mean by raid purchases as a requirement?

    I mean, if the only alternative to become a pseudo-elitistic kittenhead would be to purchase raids, as nobody would teach, raid selling should be forbidden.

    You're welcome. :)
    But how do you know that that isn't also the worst case scenario in raids? Like i won't deny that their are toxic people in raids, but to me i've met more toxic people in open world (or 1 person who has way to much free time).

    For the majority in this thread, who take their own misunderstandings for undisputable facts, instead of actually asking like you do here; I should finally take the opportunity to explain.

    Like everybody else, I can only speak for my own experience, based on personal encounters of community and raids. Everyone's experience is different. People can have a good, bad, awkward or awesome experience from either 5 runs, 50 runs, 500 runs or 5,000 runs. Obviously there is still much experience to collect after just a few runs. However, if teammates cannot even behave to begin with, the likeliness you want to get back is somewhere between low and microscopic. Especially if you already have bad experience from thousands of hours of similar activities, aside a bunch of runscammers in your blocklist. You have to be ignorant to the bone not to understand different activities catches different types of players.

    In this case, pseudo-elitists:

    • look for the most challenging content possible, and want everybody to know about it - totally check
    • complain about others, instead of giving constructive criticism - check
    • troll and can't stay civilised in map chat - check
    • kick whenever they get the opportunity - check

    It's pretty obvious what type of players raids are gathering (except it's PvE, which they normally "hate"). This especially if it filters out "bad" players by pure DPS. As an active WvW player for 7 years, it's more or less impossible not to predict the mentality of the average raid player. I mean, if you've been hospitalized fighting Hells Angels one day, you won't kick in the door to Bandidos the next by curiosity. At least not if you aren't dumber than nature itself (which I'm getting the impression that some actually are).

    Anyhow, I hope and think it was the "worst case scenario", although it wasn't that bad really. Just a waste of time and some maintenance in the blocklist. I've since met some raiders who have been helpful with builds and nice in general, and also applied to a raid guild. If true that raids actually require this and that much dps, I have no problem with that, as long as people aren't kittening about it. Which definitely isn't the thing with hotjoinable strikes, which is why I felt the need to reply to the thread. What's next, li and kp in costume brawl? :lol: (nah, should not give em ideas)

    But to me the problem wasn't that you think the raidcommunity is toxic. it was about HOW you and you're friends got that information/idea.

    My first raid experiences were the problem, current raid mentality is the problem. Or for now, was, as I now understand it's to some extent required for boss completions.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    Allow me to express another avenue of thought that's perhaps not been brought up at least in this thread.

    What if LI/Killproof for strikes isn't a problem but the symptom of a problem? It's entirely within reason for players to make up their own requirements in the looking for group, but the question that's been brought up is why they are asking for such presumptuously 'high' requirements for necessarily easier content?

    The problems of massive gap between player effectiveness, and the difficulty level of strikes compared to the average skill level of the playerbase were brought up many times already. The issue is that not everyone think they're a problem. Some consider those to be features.

    Unfortunately at this time there's still not enough of a solution out there to assist getting the baseline skill of the entire 'motivated' GW2 playerbase who are interested in instanced content across the board to teach them how to do dps, or their roles.

    That's because the core systems of this game create a situation where such a solution simply cannot exist. The whole freeform system for builds and gear is built in a way (and around assumption) that only players themselves can reasonably judge the quality of builds. It is simply way too complex for the game to be able to do that on its own (and since the meta changes way too often, you can't even put the right answers in manually - not without a delay that would practically guarantee that the answers will always be outdated). The action combat, and the way the skill system works make it impossible for the game to teach the players proper rotations. This is partially based on the previous problem (rotations are very strictly tied to specific builds after all, as sometimes even changing of single trait can change them considerably). Additionally, the system makes it so even small changes in how effectively those rotations are executed can result in significant impact on the end result - and most players simply cannot pull off those rotations perfectly.

    Notice, though, that all of the above is at the same time a great problem, but it is also a feature. It all depends on whom you'll ask about it. Personally i think, that the system is great as an idea, but it is an idea that is aimed at a relatively small niche of players. the cost of implementing it in a game aimed at a much wider audience is just way too big.

    If you want to resolve the issue with players putting in such 'high' requirements, instead of demanding them to change perhaps it would be better suited to ask Arenanet to provide a proper leveling tutorial or maybe story instances that have you 'pretend' to be geared out doing certain attacks or cooldowns properly. There's certainly ideas out there, or one could simply learn to deal with those LFGs and join another, or heaven-forbid, one would take the initiative to get those LIs themselves.

    See the above. There's no way to significantly change the effectiveness gap situation without changes to the core systems of this game. Which, for many reasons, won't happen.

    At this point the only way for the LFG issue to stop being an issue is to stop funneling mainstream players into content that's not designed with them in mind. You should never try to mix more casual players with the more hardcore ones in any content where the differences between those groups (like effectiveness) actually matter - and definitely not in one where those differences could significantly impact the chances of succesfully completing the content. Nothing good can ever come from this.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's because the core systems of this game create a situation where such a solution simply cannot exist.

    Fully closing the gap probably not. But a player with a proper build will out-dps using only auto-attacks will out-dps a player with a terrible build using "made up" rotations. A "baseline" for performance, only using auto-attacks, could be established, requiring no rotations at all. There are things that the game can do to close the gap, it's just that the developers don't want to do anything.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's because the core systems of this game create a situation where such a solution simply cannot exist.

    Fully closing the gap probably not. But a player with a proper build will out-dps using only auto-attacks will out-dps a player with a terrible build using "made up" rotations. A "baseline" for performance, only using auto-attacks, could be established, requiring no rotations at all. There are things that the game can do to close the gap, it's just that the developers don't want to do anything.

    Ah, but you touch upon one of the problems even with that: namely, what constitutes a "proper build"? The game does not know that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:
    Which, if anything, verifies my point that any player can do 8,000 dps pretty easily. So no reason not to believe that if not genuinely trolling.

    Can =/= will. Furthermore you seem to imply that any normal player hits that 8000 mark pretty easily as you put it. If that were the case I'm almost certain any strike or raid would be going much smoother.

    • What logically says one person's experience is worth more than the same person plus his/her friends (or, as for not offending you, a random number of randomized known people) together? What a silly statement, if you are being sincere I assume you might have erred, as 1 < 1+x in any logical sense.

    If you want further replies, step up your game matey.

    Game's rigged chief. "One Person's Experience" (1) "is worth more" (>?) "than the same person plus her/her friends together?" (1+x)

    Try rephrasing your statement so it's not nonsense thanks!

    • What logically says one must have a specific amount of experience of one specific subject, before forming a personal opinion; and that every subject similar or equal is irrelevant? This is where I'm going to borrow Cyninja's term of one having a 'qualified opinion' versus just an 'opinion'. Knowing how to be a fisherman does not give you a qualified opinion on how to do an electrician's job. Society absolutely puts more faith in people who know what they are talking about.

    This if anything verifies my previous point. You don't necessarily have to know your job (raids/WvW) to know your colleagues (pseudo-elitists).

    I'm going to operate under the presumption that your previous statement isn't incoherent and is a jab at one person thinking they know more than everyone else. They absolutely do need to understand the job to comprehend the actions of the colleague's attitude. It's entirely how you interpret what they are saying as being constructive or destructive information. How can YOU know that they didn't have a good point about what you were doing as a job.

    • How high is that experience level, and what logically says it makes you experienced enough for your own personal opinion? I'm actually going to provide a very specific answer to this one, mainly because it's pretty general. The experience level is literally getting your first raid kill I would argue, the bare minimum. Which seems to be an excessively, grueling task according to the forum complaints.

    Okay. Then you've already forgotten what "Circus" said in the comment you're defending:
    The worst parts of this community make blanket statements about content they have never/barely accessed
    "A few runs" are not enough for him, yet one kill is enough for you...? How'd you want it?

    My interpretation of that statement is circus talking about the range within 'never' which is a blunt 0 runs, and barely accessed which I could interpret as either haven't killed a boss, killed a boss, or maybe a full clear. I would be more open to opinions from players who have had success killing a raid boss compared to the literal players who haven't even gone in, I find that to be a more qualified opinion.

    Other players have more stricter requirements for opinions, luckily we have a forum to discuss the varied ranges of these experience levels.

    • What logically says you, out of millions of players, are the only right to judge the above? And this is where you attempt to twist back to Mindcircus, the statements he is saying aren't a 'him' thing. This is a blatant deflection.

    So that's a no on Mindcircus' behalf? Hahaha man, let him speak for himself.

    Sure.

    • And if so, why would you logically reply to something you've already predetermined as fake? Because misinformation is the bane of logic.

    Misinformation is better than no information. And if you knew logic, you could simply use your brain, and see that it's not all that hard to have a friend or do 8,000 dps in Guild Wars 2.

    We are going to have to disagree on a fatal level with misinformation being better than no information. That's an entirely other discussion that's going to take a lot more than single coffee to cover, but that's grossly irresponsible in this age to pursue especially if spreading it intentionally.

    I'm getting the impression that you honestly believe you're the only physical person playing this game. Every player and every thing you haven't seen hasn't happen. There are no friends because there are no players. Neither can't there be any dps. And, most importantly, as the combined value of opinion decrease with the amount of people agreeing, your opinion is worth more than the entire world's together. Either that, or you're extremely biased towards your personal preconception (which is fully understandable; as we human beings have a natural tendency/bias to agree with everything that's in our own favor). Alternatively, which is actually pretty obvious, you're trolling.
    Yep, you certainly aren't being direct, it's just difficult not pointing out when someone pulls out a strange liquid to pour into a well.

    "I'm getting the impression" is not a definite statement.
    "Either that, or" is not a definite statement.
    "Alternatively" is not a definite statement.

    You're too blinded by your own hate to manage a logical conversation.

    You aren't being clever here, it's fundamentally clear to anyone the statements while not direct intentionally set up a definite statement hurting someone's character.

    I 100% agree you should defend yourself. I'm entirely aware that my points before were completely aggressive. What I find most telling, and logically insufficient, from your reasoning is easily how you already believe I have no authority on the matter and my view is irrelevant. I definitely am no mod, I certainly do possess the equal rights as you to post on the forums, maintain a discussion or throw a fit or talk about cats. But to insist views from users are irrelevant? That blows away the entire purpose of these forums, where people provide varied levels of stances on things. And as mentioned before, where discourse becomes more important is who has the more qualified opinion?

    Of course your opinion about the defensiveness of my post is irrelevant. Give me one single reason to care? I didn't talk about the thread, or I would have mentioned that while quoting a completely different chunk of text. I'm very sorry for that part being unclear.

    As a side note to you, and everyone else in this thread, please quit taking the context of every word for granted. I'm not even a native English speaker, sometimes stuff might get wrong.

    I'm going to be harsh regardless. Especially now that you've mentioned you aren't a native English speaker and you might get stuff wrong. That furthers my point before about some of these responses are nonsense or deflections.

    Refer to above quote from you setting up Circus as egotistical, naive, and/or a troll which I can only assume you think is constructive?

    Again, there are no definite statements. I'm questioning the absurdity of the reply, and whether it's even possible to have such a lop-sided view of reality (or in this case, not even reality, but a game community)

    You find it hard to believe someone would be cynical of the typical player without a qualified opinion, making blatant opinions about a kind of content they aren't at all familiar with? Is it really so hard to believe that someone who actually knows something would take offense to a pretender spreading misinformation around?

    I've seen on these forums players who formerly weren't all that acquainted with raiding actually go through and adjust their opinions after a lot of time. They still might be critical, but it's fundamentally clear night and day that they are not making wild inaccurate claims like before. The reality here is that we still have players who straight up do not want to take that initiative to become informed and would rather make baseless opinions about things that they think they could get changed to their favor at the expense of other players who enjoy that content currently. And then we have individuals who seek to defend the ill-informed as if it's constructive criticism that should be considered.

    Thanks for verifying our prejudications. Time to step up from this nonsense.

    Thank you for providing statements that potentially render those prejudications moot.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    To bad, If their is a commander in the squad you play then that commander can decide everything. So in that case the comm can kick the toxic people for example.
    You do need a comm you trust ofcourse. :)

    Yeah. Our commander gave up when enough left, if memory serves correctly. Long ago.

    Can i ask you to elaborate on this point, because i have no idea what you mean by raid purchases as a requirement?

    I mean, if the only alternative to become a pseudo-elitistic kittenhead would be to purchase raids, as nobody would teach, raid selling should be forbidden.

    Then i'll have to say that you don't have to become an elitist to complete raids, You just have to find a guild/ group which works for you.
    Also like i said earlier, the abolishments of raidsellers would do less on the amount of trainingruns.

    You're welcome. :)
    But how do you know that that isn't also the worst case scenario in raids? Like i won't deny that their are toxic people in raids, but to me i've met more toxic people in open world (or 1 person who has way to much free time).

    For the majority in this thread, who take their own misunderstandings for undisputable facts, instead of actually asking like you do here; I should finally take the opportunity to explain.

    Like everybody else, I can only speak for my own experience, based on personal encounters of community and raids. Everyone's experience is different. People can have a good, bad, awkward or awesome experience from either 5 runs, 50 runs, 500 runs or 5,000 runs. Obviously there is still much experience to collect after just a few runs. However, if teammates cannot even behave to begin with, the likeliness you want to get back is somewhere between low and microscopic. Especially if you already have bad experience from thousands of hours of similar activities, aside a bunch of runscammers in your blocklist. You have to be ignorant to the bone not to understand different activities catches different types of players.

    No i agree, but i think thats where the problem also lies.
    You claimed somewhere earlier in this tread that that misinformation is beter then no information. But this is most of the time false. This only works in my opninion if the misinformation actually benefits the person (saying a white lie to save someones feelings for example.) This is not the case in this discussion.
    (if this is not what you meant then i would love to have an explanation what you meant so i can get an acurate response. :) )

    Lets assume in this case that 1 out of a 1000 people in training runs is toxic. Then 1 every 100 runs would be experienced as toxic. And the people in those runs opinion of raids would probably be that raiders are toxic and they wouldnt run these anymore because they didn't enjoy themselves (which is a very reasonable thing to do.

    In contrast imaging that 1 in 100 open world meta event player is toxic (placing things on chests for example) You probably won't really care that much.

    Here the experiences give such a different view then whats actually going on that relaying on this experience may give you false information.

    In this case, pseudo-elitists:

    • look for the most challenging content possible, and want everybody to know about it - totally check
    • complain about others, instead of giving constructive criticism - check
    • troll and can't stay civilised in map chat - check
    • kick whenever they get the opportunity - check

    So raids will attract toxic people, i agree. But the question isn't how lickely is a toxic person to be a raider. The question is how lickely is a raider to be toxic. :)

    It's pretty obvious what type of players raids are gathering (except it's PvE, which they normally "hate"). This especially if it filters out "bad" players by pure DPS. As an active WvW player for 7 years, it's more or less impossible not to predict the mentality of the average raid player. I mean, if you've been hospitalized fighting Hells Angels one day, you won't kick in the door to Bandidos the next by curiosity. At least not if you aren't dumber than nature itself (which I'm getting the impression that some actually are).

    Anyhow, I hope and think it was the "worst case scenario", although it wasn't that bad really. Just a waste of time and some maintenance in the blocklist. I've since met some raiders who have been helpful with builds and nice in general, and also applied to a raid guild. If true that raids actually require this and that much dps, I have no problem with that, as long as people aren't kittening about it. Which definitely isn't the thing with hotjoinable strikes, which is why I felt the need to reply to the thread. What's next, li and kp in costume brawl? :lol: (nah, should not give em ideas)

    I understand how you feel here, but isn't it better in this case that their are squads with reqs. If someone asked li for costume brawl, would you want to be in a group with that person?
    :p

    But to me the problem wasn't that you think the raidcommunity is toxic. it was about HOW you and you're friends got that information/idea.

    My first raid experiences were the problem, current raid mentality is the problem. Or for now, was, as I now understand it's to some extent required for boss completions.

    To get a little more serious, because this is actually the point that matters to me. My mother once told me "can you blame people for being racist if they where robbed for example?" my response is yes you can, i might understand where they came from but theire reasoning is probably flawed as they're making a wild generalization and then let comfirmation bias /selection bias take it from their.

    Now i'm not saying you're racist or anything, please don't take it that way. :)

    But this story was more to highlight that people can have personal opinions, with a good reason to have this opinion. And this opinion still being very wrong/dangerous/illogical. And as Cyn said earlier, their is a difference between a personal opinion, and a educated opinion.

    I do hope that you either find a group which works for you or find you don't like the content raids offer.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    taken 5 minutes ago... ;)

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's because the core systems of this game create a situation where such a solution simply cannot exist.

    Fully closing the gap probably not. But a player with a proper build will out-dps using only auto-attacks will out-dps a player with a terrible build using "made up" rotations. A "baseline" for performance, only using auto-attacks, could be established, requiring no rotations at all. There are things that the game can do to close the gap, it's just that the developers don't want to do anything.

    Ah, but you touch upon one of the problems even with that: namely, what constitutes a "proper build"? The game does not know that.

    I think it's a matter of if the developers wanted to, even at the starting locations, have in-game lore describing attributes, baseline things.

    I agree with your entire discourse earlier when you brought it up, the game is extremely free-form and open-ended. The feature became a curse.

    Even things like having a Norn in Hoelbrak talking with another Norn about his gear, bringing up things like sigils, how this piece of gear gives him the hide of Bear, or that this sword bites like Wolf!

    Putting all this information in a stat window is just pointless. But imagine if they had NPCs in the Raid Lounge that you can interact with, each one describing what they do for their squad, giving hints to what they run?

    We just need more clarification, really. Maybe the DPS one brings you to a solo instance where they outfit you with different gear sets and try certain weapons, without traits (though they might refer to traits in general).

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hyrai.8720 said:
    taken 5 minutes ago... ;)

    This must be EU servers - where lets face it the level of player ability is much higher and they utilise the LFG much more than NA.

  • Fangoth.3164Fangoth.3164 Member ✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    I don't think LI are a problem at all. I've been in both type of groups and sadly not all player are able to think their build/rotation or just used one made by some better player leadin to some very ackward "dps" player dealing less damage than a druid pet (druid as a healer deal close to no damage at all). Some player want to do their strike quickly and use their spare time for other things and there is nothing wrong about not wanting to carry player through the stike, its exactly the same as other player that do not want characters below lv 80 in dungeon.

    People are complaining about LI group but you know there is nothing wrong about joining a non LI group, i often do so for shiver, fraenir and kodans as there is no difficulty at all and almost (some surprise happens) impossible to fail.

    You can also tag up and create your own no LI group, people will join quite fast and you can do strike together.

    But if you really think you are above no LI group and you think your dps/heal/boon is worth a 250 LI (or whatever the number is) don't hesitate to join the group and ask for a trial. Most com will allow you especially if it starts with shiver because there is no mechanics to do at all and will see straight away how you do without any pressure. if there is no major problem in your gameplay you'll be able to stay else will be out but take this opportunity to try improve your gameplay :)

    Quite funny though, so many people shouting at LI being evil and meanwhile they totally accept the very same thing in dungeon :# (yeah can't find any complaint about Lv 80 requirement)

    Removing LI isn't possible anyway because it would end up on having "LI people" getting everyone in their group and when seeing dmg/boon output on most player they would end up kicking and blocking players ( yeah you can rename player Bad dps or bad boon in blacklist) soo would know not to accept them anymore in their group and it would end up the same.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    We just need more clarification, really. Maybe the DPS one brings you to a solo instance where they outfit you with different gear sets and try certain weapons, without traits (though they might refer to traits in general).

    Some kind of tutorial like the one for boosted characters in WoW might be nice.
    There they could explain weapon skills and utilities while gradually unlocking them and also hinting at certain stats and traits that boost them.

    That would be much better then just throwing boosted characters into the Silverwastes.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's because the core systems of this game create a situation where such a solution simply cannot exist.

    Fully closing the gap probably not. But a player with a proper build will out-dps using only auto-attacks will out-dps a player with a terrible build using "made up" rotations. A "baseline" for performance, only using auto-attacks, could be established, requiring no rotations at all. There are things that the game can do to close the gap, it's just that the developers don't want to do anything.

    Ah, but you touch upon one of the problems even with that: namely, what constitutes a "proper build"? The game does not know that.

    Of course it doesn't but it could learn what is a proper build. We all know that Power is an inflated stat when it comes to damage, power builds, condition builds, even support builds use Power in their stats. Either as primary or secondary. There are some used Builds without any Power but those are really small exceptions (like Minstrel meme tanking). As an example that I just came up with, making the amount of Power a player has clearly visible to others is one way to show players what is a proper gear set. And then give a "recommended power" for different content, similar to how "recommended agony" works in fractals. A recommendation, not a hard requirement. With this they won't need to kill gear combinations, but at the very least show IN GAME, without resorting to asking around or searching online, that their stats need improvements. I think that's a rather quick and elegant solution to gear stats, as the first step.

    There is a reason Anet removed all non-Power stat combinations from PVP (with the exception of Rabid) and a reason why WVW players also want those removed, and have been asking for their removal for years. In PVE they are just really selfish stats offering next to nothing to the group, while "protecting" the user.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's because the core systems of this game create a situation where such a solution simply cannot exist.

    Fully closing the gap probably not. But a player with a proper build will out-dps using only auto-attacks will out-dps a player with a terrible build using "made up" rotations. A "baseline" for performance, only using auto-attacks, could be established, requiring no rotations at all. There are things that the game can do to close the gap, it's just that the developers don't want to do anything.

    Ah, but you touch upon one of the problems even with that: namely, what constitutes a "proper build"? The game does not know that.

    Of course it doesn't but it could learn what is a proper build. We all know that Power is an inflated stat when it comes to damage, power builds, condition builds, even support builds use Power in their stats. Either as primary or secondary. There are some used Builds without any Power but those are really small exceptions (like Minstrel meme tanking). As an example that I just came up with, making the amount of Power a player has clearly visible to others is one way to show players what is a proper gear set. And then give a "recommended power" for different content, similar to how "recommended agony" works in fractals. A recommendation, not a hard requirement. With this they won't need to kill gear combinations, but at the very least show IN GAME, without resorting to asking around or searching online, that their stats need improvements. I think that's a rather quick and elegant solution to gear stats, as the first step.

    Gear perhaps, even if it isn't all that simple as you present it - for example your idea would see a lot of players running in soldiers, which they already do (There's very, very few true meme nomad/minstrel builds out there). Notice, though, that it would require from Anet admitting that the gearset choice is for the most part a false choice. Most of the stat sets are either completely useless, or their use is so niche and small it might as well not exist. By that point it would be better to just completely revamp gear stat set system - which is probably one of the easiest (which does not mean "easy") things to do out of all the problems the build/combat system currently has.

    That's just gear, though. I was talking about builds however. And weapons, skills and traits cannot be taught like that. It's not individual choices that matter here, but how they complement each other. And here the best game can do is to tell the player "the system is complex, your choices matter a lot, so you better research it using out of game resources". Problem is, anyone that might follow that advice already knows all that.

    There is a reason Anet removed all non-Power stat combinations from PVP (with the exception of Rabid) and a reason why WVW players also want those removed, and have been asking for their removal for years. In PVE they are just really selfish stats offering next to nothing to the group, while "protecting" the user.

    Actually, the reason why Anet removed the all-defensive stat sets (and a lot of hybrid ones) from SPvP was because they were too good in that content. At some point tempest auramancers (for example) were pretty much unkillable. And they were not the only case of good bunker builds at the time. There was a reason why SPvP was called then the "bunker meta".

    That's, by the way, another problem - the PvE and PvP systems are completely disassociated. Things that are good in one can be completely useless in another. It's practically two (or even three, considering WvW has its own considerations) completely different games. That makes any attempt at fixing things dangerous - because a fix that might be reasonable for one mode might seriously break things in other modes.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • LKEY.9567LKEY.9567 Member ✭✭

    Ahhh, I love showdowns like that early in the morning while sipping my coffee.

    We are in the game where causal players (it's just statement, i don't have any negative thoughts) are angry at skilled players because of their... skill. What a time to be alive.
    I do strikes because I want to have a sweet loot. I have no mood to join open lfg and struggle with Fraenir.
    Before anyone will pull full of hatred towards me: I lead raid training for a guild I am in for a one and half year. Once a week, almost every single week. As experienced raider, I am willing to teach people who wants to learn. If I will get a leacher in my squad in raids or training, I will just kick him/her/apache. And yet, I have teached a people who broke their barriers of 100/200/300LI. You just want to learn it. Why raiders do strikes even it's too easy? Loot. I know, you might be shocked but the game is all about loot.
    You all people need to learn to value time of the others. LFG/Public Run is usually not a place to learn your class or encounter otherwise it's mentioned.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's because the core systems of this game create a situation where such a solution simply cannot exist.

    Fully closing the gap probably not. But a player with a proper build will out-dps using only auto-attacks will out-dps a player with a terrible build using "made up" rotations. A "baseline" for performance, only using auto-attacks, could be established, requiring no rotations at all. There are things that the game can do to close the gap, it's just that the developers don't want to do anything.

    Ah, but you touch upon one of the problems even with that: namely, what constitutes a "proper build"? The game does not know that.

    Of course it doesn't but it could learn what is a proper build. We all know that Power is an inflated stat when it comes to damage, power builds, condition builds, even support builds use Power in their stats. Either as primary or secondary. There are some used Builds without any Power but those are really small exceptions (like Minstrel meme tanking). As an example that I just came up with, making the amount of Power a player has clearly visible to others is one way to show players what is a proper gear set. And then give a "recommended power" for different content, similar to how "recommended agony" works in fractals. A recommendation, not a hard requirement. With this they won't need to kill gear combinations, but at the very least show IN GAME, without resorting to asking around or searching online, that their stats need improvements. I think that's a rather quick and elegant solution to gear stats, as the first step.

    Gear perhaps, even if it isn't all that simple as you present it - for example your idea would see a lot of players running in soldiers, which they already do (There's very, very few true meme nomad/minstrel builds out there). Notice, though, that it would require from Anet admitting that the gearset choice is for the most part a false choice. Most of the stat sets are either completely useless, or their use is so niche and small it might as well not exist. By that point it would be better to just completely revamp gear stat set system - which is probably one of the easiest things to do out of all the problems the build/combat system currently has.

    Judging by the amount of damage seen in many meta events and inside instances it really begs the question if the meme builds exist or not. Because a lot of players are doing less damage than what a "proper" geared player would do just by auto-attacking. Revamping the gear stat system would be better but I'm not sure if they want to do something like that this late in the game's development. Which is why showing the "Power" of a build and a "recommended power number" would work with minimal (if any) changes to the system of acquisition.

    That's just gear, though. I was talking about builds however. And weapons, skills and traits cannot be taught like that. It's not individual choices that matter here, but how they complement each other. And here the best game can do is to tell the player "the system is complex, your choices matter a lot, so you better research it using out of game resources". Problem is, anyone that might follow that advice already knows all that.

    True. Baby steps required here I don't expect the gap to be bridged in a single change/patch. Taking care of meme gear sets is just the first tiny step.

    Actually, the reason why Anet removed the all-defensive stat sets (and a lot of hybrid ones) from SPvP was because they were too good in that content. At some point tempest auramancers (for example) were pretty much unkillable. And they were not the only case of good bunker builds at the time. There was a reason why SPvP was called then the "bunker meta".

    Yes they removed them because players were un-killable and removed the "fun" out of PVP. In PVE it's the same, Un-killable bunkers aren't needed in PVE just like they aren't needed in PVP. In both modes (and in WVW as well) being un-killable isn't fun for anyone else around, in PVP/WVW because it's not fun to fight such a player, in PVE because it's selfish and doesn't offer anything to the rest of the team. In all game modes "selfish" stat combinations need to be removed, years ago we had "magic find" gear and Anet removed it because it was very selfish and was causing a lot of drama.

    That's, by the way, another problem - the PvE and PvP systems are completely disassociated. Things that are good in one can be completely useless in another. It's practically two (or even three, considering WvW has its own considerations) completely different games. That makes any attempt at fixing things dangerous - because a fix that might be reasonable for one mode might seriously break things in other modes.

    In the case of gear stats they are very similar as in all game modes purely selfish gear is damaging. Skills/traits are a different story, which is why I guess we have split skills, adding more of those would be better.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Yes they removed them because players were un-killable and removed the "fun" out of PVP. In PVE it's the same, Un-killable bunkers aren't needed in PVE just like they aren't needed in PVP.

    No, there's a major difference. Bunker builds are, for the most part, useless in high-end PvE content. In SPvP however, even if they might have been not fun, they were still very efficient, and extremely useful. To the point of pushing out everything else out of the meta, at the point when they were allowed.

    In both modes (and in WVW as well) being un-killable isn't fun for anyone else around, in PVP/WVW because it's not fun to fight such a player, in PVE because it's selfish and doesn't offer anything to the rest of the team.

    Being OP to the point of absurdity, and being useless are two very different things.

    In all game modes "selfish" stat combinations need to be removed, years ago we had "magic find" gear and Anet removed it because it was very selfish and was causing a lot of drama.

    SPvP auramancers (and in fact most of the bunker builds of the bunker meta era) were anything but selfish. That was actually part of the problem - single bunker was bad enough, but said bunker assisting others was a total nightmare.

    That's, by the way, another problem - the PvE and PvP systems are completely disassociated. Things that are good in one can be completely useless in another. It's practically two (or even three, considering WvW has its own considerations) completely different games. That makes any attempt at fixing things dangerous - because a fix that might be reasonable for one mode might seriously break things in other modes.

    In the case of gear stats they are very similar as in all game modes purely selfish gear is damaging. Skills/traits are a different story, which is why I guess we have split skills, adding more of those would be better.

    You didn't play during the SPvP bunker era, did you. Otherwise you'd know that all your callouts to selfish gear there pretty much miss the mark by a mile.
    In fact, since SPvP is a team game, any kind of gear that lets you do your job better (which, remember, isn't to kill enemies, but to cap points/prevent enemies from capping) cannot be called selfish.

    But as for differences, remember, that PvE revolves around fully specialized sets, with offense maxxed out as much as possible, where defensive stats are generally a total waste of stat points. In SPvP however not investing in at least a little bit of survivability is usually a suicidal decision.
    And as for builds/skills, it's not only a case of skill splits. It's a case of completely different approach to their use. In PvE you have stable rotations, in SPvP you have reactive skill use, revolving around single skills and relatively short combo chains - the idea of skill rotations doesn't have a place in there.
    It's completely different combat philosophy.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    In both modes (and in WVW as well) being un-killable isn't fun for anyone else around, in PVP/WVW because it's not fun to fight such a player, in PVE because it's selfish and doesn't offer anything to the rest of the team.

    Being OP to the point of absurdity, and being useless are two very different things.

    It is but in both cases they are not fun to play with (PVE) or against (PVP).

    In all game modes "selfish" stat combinations need to be removed, years ago we had "magic find" gear and Anet removed it because it was very selfish and was causing a lot of drama.

    SPvP auramancers (and in fact most of the bunker builds of the bunker meta era) were anything but selfish. That was actually part of the problem - single bunker was bad enough, but said bunker assisting others was a total nightmare.

    That's, by the way, another problem - the PvE and PvP systems are completely disassociated. Things that are good in one can be completely useless in another. It's practically two (or even three, considering WvW has its own considerations) completely different games. That makes any attempt at fixing things dangerous - because a fix that might be reasonable for one mode might seriously break things in other modes.

    In the case of gear stats they are very similar as in all game modes purely selfish gear is damaging. Skills/traits are a different story, which is why I guess we have split skills, adding more of those would be better.

    You didn't play during the SPvP bunker era, did you. Otherwise you'd know that all your callouts to selfish gear there pretty much miss the mark by a mile.
    In fact, since SPvP is a team game, any kind of gear that lets you do your job better (which, remember, isn't to kill enemies, but to cap points/prevent enemies from capping) cannot be called selfish.

    Yeah I should've said selfish in PVE only, like I did earlier. In PVP bunkers are not "selfish". I messed that up.

    But as for differences, remember, that PvE revolves around fully specialized sets, with offense maxxed out as much as possible, where defensive stats are generally a total waste of stat points. In SPvP however not investing in at least a little bit of survivability is usually a suicidal decision.
    And as for builds/skills, it's not only a case of skill splits. It's a case of completely different approach to their use. In PvE you have stable rotations, in SPvP you have reactive skill use, revolving around single skills and relatively short combo chains - the idea of skill rotations doesn't have a place in there.
    It's completely different combat philosophy.

    Of course it's a different combat philosophy, fighting other players and NPCs is gonna be different, but that said if something is OP in one mode and not in another, they can do some careful balancing to nerf the offensive skill/trait where it's too good, and buff it where it's not powerful enough. Or alternatively don't care if something is weak in one mode of play, if it's good in another one. As long as a trait/skill/weapon is useful at something, be it in any PVE or PVP role or more specific things, I think they should keep it that way and not try to "balance" it better, if it's gonna upset the other modes by doing so. It does require careful changes and lots of testing, but it can work regardless of the modes being different.

    The problem comes when nerfs to "fix" an imbalance in one mode, affect the other mode where the ability wasn't overpowered to begin with. If I recall the developers mentioned numerous times that they do not want to have completely different skills/traits based on modes because they want a player with experience in one mode, to jump to another mode without having to relearn everything, if skills had different effects based on mode, then this "goal" wouldn't be achieved. The question is, if it's worth it to make it easy to jump from one mode to another, while having that much more difficulty in balancing the different modes. To be honest don't have an answer to that question.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Deeyra.1476 said:
    If i make a group for 2000LI I want a smooth run. Why would you like to weasel your way in and get carried? People that have the KP know how to kill the boss (50% of the time) which is still better than wiping with an unexperienced group for hours. We all started at 0. If you want no requirement group, make your own party but i wanna know how long, before you add KP in your LFG

    Indeed, at 2 000 LI you can have a smooth run. But you will not have another players joining the raid/strike community. And taking into account the raiders also want new raids I can conclude that not ANet, but the raider community is responsible for the rate of adding new raids. Not ANet but the raider community is keeping the new comers away. Why? Because they want a smooth run. And loot as fast as possible. And - not least - because they want to show to the common players who are the elite =)