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Li / Killproof for Strikes are a Problem

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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    In both modes (and in WVW as well) being un-killable isn't fun for anyone else around, in PVP/WVW because it's not fun to fight such a player, in PVE because it's selfish and doesn't offer anything to the rest of the team.

    Being OP to the point of absurdity, and being useless are two very different things.

    It is but in both cases they are not fun to play with (PVE) or against (PVP).

    Remember, that fun is highly subjective. Effectiveness differences are far less so.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The problem comes when nerfs to "fix" an imbalance in one mode, affect the other mode where the ability wasn't overpowered to begin with. If I recall the developers mentioned numerous times that they do not want to have completely different skills/traits based on modes because they want a player with experience in one mode, to jump to another mode without having to relearn everything, if skills had different effects based on mode, then this "goal" wouldn't be achieved. The question is, if it's worth it to make it easy to jump from one mode to another, while having that much more difficulty in balancing the different modes. To be honest don't have an answer to that question.

    I'd say that the game modes are already so different due to the way they are played, that trying to keep skills consistent between them doesn't really mean much. A SPvP player is going to look at skills and traits in a very different way than someone from PvE. In a way, even if that skill does exactly the same thing in SPvP and PvE, in many cases for players from both modes that exact same thing it can mean something very different. Experience in skills from one mode already can't really be used in another.

    I'd say that the best illustration for it would be the whole history of balancing Confusion for PvE and PvP, where practically every single time Anet did a change to the mechanic with PvP in mind, it then required months (and in at least one case much much longer than that) of fixing it back into usefulness for PvE. Just because Anet wasn't willing to make bigger splits than just making separate coefficients.

    So, while it's theoretically the very same mechanic, due to differences in environment, in each mode it always ends up working very differently.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    just create your own party, strike misions arent that hard


  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Deeyra.1476 said:
    If i make a group for 2000LI I want a smooth run. Why would you like to weasel your way in and get carried? People that have the KP know how to kill the boss (50% of the time) which is still better than wiping with an unexperienced group for hours. We all started at 0. If you want no requirement group, make your own party but i wanna know how long, before you add KP in your LFG

    Indeed, at 2 000 LI you can have a smooth run. But you will not have another players joining the raid/strike community. And taking into account the raiders also want new raids I can conclude that not ANet, but the raider community is responsible for the rate of adding new raids. Not ANet but the raider community is keeping the new comers away. Why? Because they want a smooth run. And loot as fast as possible. And - not least - because they want to show to the common players who are the elite =)

    What you are asking for is already in game: It's called raid selling. The 1 new guy gets carried, learns nearly nothing and pays the others to for the kills because he certainly will not have been of ANY value encounter wise.

    What you do not account for is the massive efforts by veteran raiders in helping, training and getting new players ready via many different means. I don't have to take a new player along in my 2k-3k LI static. It would be counter productive both for him as well as every one in the static (except if the only desire is loot for the inexperienced raiders, which as mentioned is available as raid sell). What I can do is take the new player along in a for him designated and proper training. For that though, I need that new player to realize what he has to do, and where his limits are.

  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Li/Killproof aint a problem, is just the community, or people had forgotten that for stuff like AC path 1 you used to have people asking for "10K AP zerker War or Ele only ping ascended gear or kick" kind of deal? Strikes are not hard, the first time I did Boneskiner I took less then 30min with a full squad were nobody knew the encounter, my LFG was "First time doing, all welcome" took +5 min to fill up...some people arent just willing to explain the fight and the mechanics and dont want to deal with less skilled players that will fail 100% of the time and need to be carried...during my run and after watching a video and explaining what we should be doing it, didnt took less then 2min to figure out who was the dead weights that were draggin the team down...so while some were legit good others were...something else, and some players just dont want to deal with it...so yeah, as usual, the community have a special talent for ruining the game(not just pve, but sPvP and WvW too), the worst that gonna happen is that the supposed game mode that was meant to be a bridge for Raids and attract new players into it, is gonna be blown up by the same players responsible for turning Raids into the most unpopular game mode in the game, and as result Anet will stop putting resources on it and we allready saw this story before.

  • @yann.1946 said:

    No i agree, but i think thats where the problem also lies.
    You claimed somewhere earlier in this tread that that misinformation is beter then no information. But this is most of the time false. This only works in my opninion if the misinformation actually benefits the person (saying a white lie to save someones feelings for example.) This is not the case in this discussion.
    (if this is not what you meant then i would love to have an explanation what you meant so i can get an acurate response. :) )

    Of course misinformation is better than no information. If you think 20 legendary insights are many, when de-facto standard is 200, at least you have a clue what legendary insights are, and what they're good for. If you have no information, you either don't even know what a legendary insight is, or spend half your life collecting 2,000, because you never cared to ask anyone. In both cases, knowledge has to be polished, but a hostile view of open-mindedness is really nothing to endeavour.

    Lets assume in this case that 1 out of a 1000 people in training runs is toxic. Then 1 every 100 runs would be experienced as toxic. And the people in those runs opinion of raids would probably be that raiders are toxic and they wouldnt run these anymore because they didn't enjoy themselves (which is a very reasonable thing to do.

    In contrast imaging that 1 in 100 open world meta event player is toxic (placing things on chests for example) You probably won't really care that much.

    Here the experiences give such a different view then whats actually going on that relaying on this experience may give you false information.

    Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. However, some in this thread are completely blinkered by their opinion, that everything is either 100% black or 100% white. There are either only perfect players or only useless players, nothing in between. As they think my few runs aren't enough for me to even have an opinion, like they're only bugbears, what says they have done the exact right amount of runs to claim that?

    In this case, pseudo-elitists:

    • look for the most challenging content possible, and want everybody to know about it - totally check
    • complain about others, instead of giving constructive criticism - check
    • troll and can't stay civilised in map chat - check
    • kick whenever they get the opportunity - check

    So raids will attract toxic people, i agree. But the question isn't how lickely is a toxic person to be a raider. The question is how lickely is a raider to be toxic. :)

    Yes.

    It's pretty obvious what type of players raids are gathering (except it's PvE, which they normally "hate"). This especially if it filters out "bad" players by pure DPS. As an active WvW player for 7 years, it's more or less impossible not to predict the mentality of the average raid player. I mean, if you've been hospitalized fighting Hells Angels one day, you won't kick in the door to Bandidos the next by curiosity. At least not if you aren't dumber than nature itself (which I'm getting the impression that some actually are).

    Anyhow, I hope and think it was the "worst case scenario", although it wasn't that bad really. Just a waste of time and some maintenance in the blocklist. I've since met some raiders who have been helpful with builds and nice in general, and also applied to a raid guild. If true that raids actually require this and that much dps, I have no problem with that, as long as people aren't kittening about it. Which definitely isn't the thing with hotjoinable strikes, which is why I felt the need to reply to the thread. What's next, li and kp in costume brawl? :lol: (nah, should not give em ideas)

    I understand how you feel here, but isn't it better in this case that their are squads with reqs. If someone asked li for costume brawl, would you want to be in a group with that person?
    :p

    Well, as long as people don't feel unwelcome, I don't see a problem. Now, I had misunderstood the point of raid requirements that was discussed earlier, where you actually have to do specific damage to complete the bosses. In strikes though, I don't see the point of that, at least not if the bosses are massively harder than its hotjoin counterpart.

    Costume brawl was a little of a exaggerated joke, heh ;) Luckily costume brawl is multiboxable. But if it wouldn't be, and every party would ask for kp and li requirements, what would be the option?

    But to me the problem wasn't that you think the raidcommunity is toxic. it was about HOW you and you're friends got that information/idea.

    My first raid experiences were the problem, current raid mentality is the problem. Or for now, was, as I now understand it's to some extent required for boss completions.

    To get a little more serious, because this is actually the point that matters to me. My mother once told me "can you blame people for being racist if they where robbed for example?" my response is yes you can, i might understand where they came from but theire reasoning is probably flawed as they're making a wild generalization and then let comfirmation bias /selection bias take it from their.

    Now i'm not saying you're racist or anything, please don't take it that way. :)

    A criminal inspector could definitely use racism as an potential incentive, like the laser Swede who shot half a dozen immigrants in the early '90s. What most peeps here don't understand is, that the inspector would never say it is racism before gathering proof of the matter. Which is why other posters' desperate attempts to put words in my mouth doesn't really get to me.

    I obviously see what's posted in LFG, and can relate with 8,200 hours of gameplay experience. If requirements aren't absolutely necessary, they shouldn't be there. I don't know how to picture it easier than relating strike requirements to raid requirements, fractal requirements, WvW requirements, and PvP whiners. No matter the game mode, they always require, always flame and always whine about nothing. Again, the worst part of the community in their nutshell.

    But this story was more to highlight that people can have personal opinions, with a good reason to have this opinion. And this opinion still being very wrong/dangerous/illogical. And as Cyn said earlier, their is a difference between a personal opinion, and a educated opinion.
    I do hope that you either find a group which works for you or find you don't like the content raids offer.

    Yes, absolutely, that's a fair point. Forgot to reply to that in between.

    I have experience enough to understand why I don't want pseudo-elitistic mentality in strike runs. I don't need to play strikes with them to understand why I don't want to play strikes with them. I neither need thousands of raid runs to realize that. It's just obvious that if you give them enough room, they will try to take over the game mode and make everyone play by their book. An idiot realizes that kittenheads in raids are no different from kittenheads in WvW, PvP or fractals, especially not after proving it so well.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:
    I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

    The worst parts of this community name-call, hyperbolize, tell others the aren't playing the game right, and make up fake numbers to support arguments without logic or basis in reality.
    The worst parts of this community make blanket statements about content they have never/barely accessed, and use sock-puppet arguments about their "friends" rather than speaking for themselves.
    The worst parts of this community talk about what's "good for the game" while having zero data to back up their claims and invoke the word "community" as if others who don't align with them do not belong.

    The worst parts of this community are gathered in this very thread.

    I notice that my previous comment took its toll on you quite badly. Apologies, it was really nothing personal.

    I don't get what you're trying to say with your gibberish about "logic". Do you understand what logic is? Then answer the following:

    • What logically says a player absolutely can't do 8,000 dps, especially if it's a low number?

    Experience. I can tell you right now, if 99% of players took their personal build, ran their person rotation (non existent most of the time) combined with incorrect itemization, most do not break 3-4k dps at best. That comes from years of experience in raid training

    Apologies for not replying earlier.

    Indeed, I totally agree, and fit rather well into that category. At least from a laidback PvE perspective (ranger with golemancer runes and mistfire wolf, just <3 ^_^)

    Nevertheless, Mindclown talked about "fake numbers to support arguments without logic or basis in reality". This while having absolutely no clue about neither which type of player I am, nor how much damage I do. Zip, zero, zilch, nothing, nada. This, plus that 8,000 isn't much at all from what people tell us here, makes my statement a quadrizillion times more solid than a simple "no" from a random guy who doesn't even belive my existence.

    Now, some who do prepare before they go for challenging group content, aka read up, train at the golem, try to understand their class, might ONLY lack the experience of the boss mechanics. I have yet to see ANY new player be this prepared in years of training players. The best I have seen is people prepare for the next raid AFTER an introductory training run with a guild. These are the players who reach around 8k dps most often on a boss where good players do double that damage or more.

    Might there be an exception, absolutely. Let's not treat this 1 in a million exception as the norm though, and since most often the norm is what shapes and forms behavior... you get where I am going with this right?

    Yes, that's fully understandable. Many players play for fun, and have more important stuff in their lives than studying a game inside out for some pathetic skill flashing. This naturally brings trial and error across the way.

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    • What logically says one person's experience is worth more than the same person plus his/her friends (or, as for not offending you, a random number of randomized known people) together?

    Depends entirely on the goal post and the issue at hand. If you have thousands of hours experience driving a car, that does not in any way make you qualified to fly a plane. You might have gained some basic understanding of how to approach to learn to fly a plane, but your strict experience of learning and driving a car does not apply.

    Fun fact: this is mirrored in fractals and raids in this game.
    Having run hundreds of fractals does not make you in any way experienced with raids. It might have taught you about group synergy, class builds, game mechanics, etc. to some extent preparing you for how to approach raids. This is then very visible then taking new players for raids. If they have had experience in WvW, Spvp or fractal content, often many of the lessons can be applied to raid content.

    Of course not. But if you have hundreds of hours studying peoples' mentality, come to a conclusion, and have reliable people agreeing with it; what says there wouldn't be an even more intense version if the same people gets an opportunity to gather at an even better point? That's the thing. It's not about fractals vs. raids, meta build vs. non-meta build, apples vs. pears. It's mentality vs extreme mentality here.

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    • What logically says one must have a specific amount of experience of one specific subject, before forming a personal opinion; and that every subject similar or equal is irrelevant?
    • How high is that experience level, and what logically says it makes you experienced enough for your own personal opinion?

    You are mixing up having an opinion, and having a qualified opinion. The later is literally based on how much experience and knowledge one has on the subject matter. The former is what most people have out the bat, and ever one has a right to.

    The problem here arises when players with opinions try to pass those off as qualified opinions.

    I'm not mixing up, I'm asking.

    If my opinion isn't qualified, what makes his opinion qualified (not more qualified, but qualified)?
    What is the exact threshold for when that opinion gets qualified?
    Is it 100% sure to say the person who reach that threshold, takes every bit into perspective, and that it can't be biased because of peer pressure?
    Where is the "data" to back that up?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:
    you're extremely biased towards your personal preconception (which is fully understandable; as we human beings have a natural tendency/bias to agree with everything that's in our own favor). Alternatively, which is actually pretty obvious, you're trolling.

    Besides, it's fairly obvious I can argue far better even as a Chinese neanderthal than you will ever manage to attempt on this forum. It's getting to us you can't even succeed as a troll.

    Might want to fix that slip-up. You miss quoted yourself, which in this context is hilarious since you are essentially insulting yourself.

    Might want to read again, and you'll see why I "miss quoted" myself.
    (Though I changed "Chinese" to "Chinese speaking only", to clarify the subject about language barriers, rather than Chinese people. Thanks for the heads up)

    Must be nice that the report function is out of order huh? Probably a long vacation from the forums incoming once it has been fixed.

    No problem matey, go ahead with your reports. Just remember that abuse of the report function, as well as complete off-topic posts, will give you quite a bunch of holidays as well. You should know that after thousands of posts, just saying ;)

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    Hm, that's a fun wall of text brimming with inaccuracies and assumptions about my nature. I definitely know it's bait but I can't help seeing what happens next!

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    Can =/= will.

    Troll posts and other off-topic, like interpreting my comments into math terms, will hereby be left unanswered.

    And here I was saving generous text space using commonly known math terms as to avoid hitting the character limit. I thought at least one could understand the meaning of such common math terms into their equal literary counterparts. Everyone's stubborn these days.

    Can equals can, nothing else.

    I corrected your statement to reflect the new discussion rules you have burdened us with.

    Again, you put words in another's mouth, because you're too desperate hating to make up your lack of arguments. Might also explain your pathetically embarassing hold to others' posts, as you keep falling short of making even remotely relevant posts yourself.

    Wow! Golly you sure showed me by completely missing my point about how while one might have the capacity to do that threshold of damage most players definitely won't in this game. Your insistence on asking questions about already commonly known player issues in this forum of all places is approaching troll-levels. You can see this happen literally any time you want, if you want to put on gear that can let you hit that damage number easily versus gear that won't let you.

    Furthermore you seem to imply that any normal player hits that Eight Thousand mark pretty easily as you put it. If that were the case I'm almost certain any strike or raid would be going much smoother.

    Alright, let's try oneliners for your level of understanding:

    And I'll provide you with more details since you need the extra help.

    One. I replied to MindClown's troll comment, where it insisted eight thousand was "fake numbers to support arguments without logic or basis in reality".

    Already starting with a lie. His original comment was quoting a defamatory statement by a sully member of our community a full two days prior to you even mentioning that number! Something about "Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community."

    And for whatever reason, you presumed he was talking about you. Very interesting.

    Two. You went ahead to defend it with "this random number generated by you can be interpreted differently by someone playing a class known to do probably Ten Thousand through simple auto-attacks" dps.

    I mean, that's facts, it's sort of how things work?

    Three. Still can't admit defeat, you now hit cringe level One Thousand by indirectly asking how on bloody earth it's possible for the average player to learn the rotation of an auto-attack?

    Whoa whoa hold on partner, I know you are going for story-telling embellishment here but 'Still can't admit defeat' phrase only really hits the mark when you actually counter my logic before. And it seems like your illiteracy is showing again, which makes sense you mentioned it before. I said as a response: Depends entirely on the context, but this random number generated by you can be interpreted differently by someone playing a class known to do probably Ten Thousand through simple auto-attacks. Whereas someone built to endure a lot of punishment without the right weapon will never hit this number. This wasn't insisting an auto-attack rotation is complicated, it's saying Toughness-main stat Hammer Warrior auto-attacking is never hitting that damage number.

    Do you even know what you're typing?

    Probably.

    Blah blah blah, yet more hysterical nonsense. Again: You don't have to know your colleagues to understand the job, which you argued for.

    Of which this entire conversation piece was a non sequitur due to your simple lack of trying to rephrase the still absurd question:

    What logically says one person's experience is worth more than the same person plus his/her friends (or, as for not offending you, a random number of randomized known people) together?

    Of which going by your track-record of dismissal in this thread, I'm not going to get a clearer question.

    Sorry, time-waster, but it's not my job to guide you through deliberate misinterpretation and lack of understanding. You obviously read what you want to read, then make completely irrelevant statements about things that have already been discussed, or are One-Hundred Percent out of context. Mindclown cited me who did a few runs, not Zero runs, not a single boss, not a single enemy and not something else of your personal opinion. Is it really that hard to understand?

    Again still stuck on that whole 'him' calling you out.

    Ever heard of trial and error? It's perfectly fine to learn from others' mistakes. As well as your own. People will be wrong throughout your entire life, believe it or not, and it's better to be wrong than never getting any knowledge about anything at all.

    Trial and error doesn't quite work when you aren't allowed to make an error in some extreme deadly cases. Thankfully we are in a video game and the only misinformation we get going on is when people are told completely wrong builds or traits and find an opposing party telling them they are wrong. Except, people are also very stubborn, and prone to latching onto misinformation out of sheer belief. Thus we see IRL examples of Anti-Vax, Five-G causes COVID, etc still going DESPITE being told otherwise.

    It is exceedingly difficult to get rid of misinformation, I would rather NO information first and people getting the RIGHT information from the RIGHT people.

    Is the alternative any better? Being short-sighted to the brim, use others' arguments like their own, and at "best", ultimately managing to succeed as a troll?

    Arguably better, leaves room for flexibility, less stubborn, less of an ego and capable of admitting when they don't know.

    Listen, aberrant debate noob.

    You know it's a good start when 'noob' comes out.

    I'm getting immenesly tired of your evasive attempts to justify some cringy butthurtcy on others' behalves. MindClown is an independent and free debater here on GWTwo forums, and your obsession of him as well as me and one specific comment is getting seriously alarming. Do you happen to suffer a mental illness or what is exactly your problem?

    Problem? No that's not it, it's way more simple than that. I'll let you assume this one.

    No matter how much you're crying, whining and trolling, you won't ever manage to silence me or anybody else on this forum. As we're arguing freely, on equal terms, then there is a part of us who manage to argue well, and people then start to listen.

    I'm thinking this is probably the most agreed upon statement across all forums hopefully.

    “Freedom of speech doesn't protect speech that you like, freedom of speech protects speech that you hate.” — Ron Jeremy

    Very wholesome man.

    ^^ That's exactly how freedom of speech works. If it doesn't suit you, Psycho Per, just kitten off. Freedom of speech are for grown ups, not naive, feeble-minded children or whatever you now strive to be.

    Busts out the American Flag, fireworks go off, cheers from the crowd roar as the national anthem plays.

    I'm going to be harsh regardless. Especially now that you've mentioned you aren't a native English speaker and you might get stuff wrong. That furthers my point before about some of these responses are nonsense or deflections.

    See? You totally believe I'm not a native English speaker, yet there is no data to back this up. But when we speak dps, friends, or even being a real player, then suddenly, you need an entire datacentre plus the Hell frozen to ice before even cogitating about it. Your ignorance is mindblowing.

    Given the entire conversation we've had, I'm more convinced that you don't just have issues with the English language in that manner, you also have issues reading. It's ok though, I'm willing to slog through this discussion with you to the very end!

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @Felipe.1807 said:
    the first time I did Boneskiner I took less then 30min with a full squad were nobody knew the encounter

    Was your first Boneskinner the incredibly easy, bugged version from its first few days?

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    No i agree, but i think thats where the problem also lies.
    You claimed somewhere earlier in this tread that that misinformation is beter then no information. But this is most of the time false. This only works in my opninion if the misinformation actually benefits the person (saying a white lie to save someones feelings for example.) This is not the case in this discussion.
    (if this is not what you meant then i would love to have an explanation what you meant so i can get an acurate response. :) )

    Of course misinformation is better than no information. If you think 20 legendary insights are many, when de-facto standard is 200, at least you have a clue what legendary insights are, and what they're good for. If you have no information, you either don't even know what a legendary insight is, or spend half your life collecting 2,000, because you never cared to ask anyone. In both cases, knowledge has to be polished, but a hostile view of open-mindedness is really nothing to endeavour.

    What you're saying is not misinformation, its partial information. That's a big distinction though. misinformation are about things which point in the wrong direction, like
    believingdrinking bleach will cure covid for example. Thats misinformation, and quite dangerous.

    Lets assume in this case that 1 out of a 1000 people in training runs is toxic. Then 1 every 100 runs would be experienced as toxic. And the people in those runs opinion of raids would probably be that raiders are toxic and they wouldnt run these anymore because they didn't enjoy themselves (which is a very reasonable thing to do.

    In contrast imaging that 1 in 100 open world meta event player is toxic (placing things on chests for example) You probably won't really care that much.

    Here the experiences give such a different view then whats actually going on that relaying on this experience may give you false information.

    Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. However, some in this thread are completely blinkered by their opinion, that everything is either 100% black or 100% white. There are either only perfect players or only useless players, nothing in between. As they think my few runs aren't enough for me to even have an opinion, like they're only bugbears, what says they have done the exact right amount of runs to claim that?

    TBH thats not what i have experienced in this thread though. For most people putting up reqs is a chance thing. The higher li someone askes the higher the change he knows what to do.
    (It might also be because you're not a native speaker, but in the beginning you seemed to believe all raiders where toxic.)

    In this case, pseudo-elitists:

    • look for the most challenging content possible, and want everybody to know about it - totally check
    • complain about others, instead of giving constructive criticism - check
    • troll and can't stay civilised in map chat - check
    • kick whenever they get the opportunity - check

    So raids will attract toxic people, i agree. But the question isn't how lickely is a toxic person to be a raider. The question is how lickely is a raider to be toxic. :)

    Yes.

    It's pretty obvious what type of players raids are gathering (except it's PvE, which they normally "hate"). This especially if it filters out "bad" players by pure DPS. As an active WvW player for 7 years, it's more or less impossible not to predict the mentality of the average raid player. I mean, if you've been hospitalized fighting Hells Angels one day, you won't kick in the door to Bandidos the next by curiosity. At least not if you aren't dumber than nature itself (which I'm getting the impression that some actually are).

    Anyhow, I hope and think it was the "worst case scenario", although it wasn't that bad really. Just a waste of time and some maintenance in the blocklist. I've since met some raiders who have been helpful with builds and nice in general, and also applied to a raid guild. If true that raids actually require this and that much dps, I have no problem with that, as long as people aren't kittening about it. Which definitely isn't the thing with hotjoinable strikes, which is why I felt the need to reply to the thread. What's next, li and kp in costume brawl? :lol: (nah, should not give em ideas)

    I understand how you feel here, but isn't it better in this case that their are squads with reqs. If someone asked li for costume brawl, would you want to be in a group with that person?
    :p

    Well, as long as people don't feel unwelcome, I don't see a problem. Now, I had misunderstood the point of raid requirements that was discussed earlier, where you actually have to do specific damage to complete the bosses. In strikes though, I don't see the point of that, at least not if the bosses are massively harder than its hotjoin counterpart.

    We'll their doesn't really need to be a point to them (like asking a full asura squad :p) but instrikes the reasons to ask reqs is to increase the change to get gold/3chests.

    Costume brawl was a little of a exaggerated joke, heh ;) Luckily costume brawl is multiboxable. But if it wouldn't be, and every party would ask for kp and li requirements, what would be the option?

    >

    Making you're own squad for example. :) I think the joke example actually gave the best reasons why these reqs are not inherently a problem. If people ask these reqs then you know which groups to avoid.

    But to me the problem wasn't that you think the raidcommunity is toxic. it was about HOW you and you're friends got that information/idea.

    My first raid experiences were the problem, current raid mentality is the problem. Or for now, was, as I now understand it's to some extent required for boss completions.

    To get a little more serious, because this is actually the point that matters to me. My mother once told me "can you blame people for being racist if they where robbed for example?" my response is yes you can, i might understand where they came from but theire reasoning is probably flawed as they're making a wild generalization and then let comfirmation bias /selection bias take it from their.

    Now i'm not saying you're racist or anything, please don't take it that way. :)

    A criminal inspector could definitely use racism as an potential incentive, like the laser Swede who shot half a dozen immigrants in the early '90s. What most peeps here don't understand is, that the inspector would never say it is racism before gathering proof of the matter. Which is why other posters' desperate attempts to put words in my mouth doesn't really get to me.

    I obviously see what's posted in LFG, and can relate with 8,200 hours of gameplay experience. If requirements aren't absolutely necessary, they shouldn't be there. I don't know how to picture it easier than relating strike requirements to raid requirements, fractal requirements, WvW requirements, and PvP whiners. No matter the game mode, they always require, always flame and always whine about nothing. Again, the worst part of the community in their nutshell.

    But no requirements are absolutely nessecary, in theory you can bang you're head against a wall for 24 hours and you prob will get the kill. THe question then becomes what is a reasonable amount of time to spent on some content and what do you want to get out of that content.

    I think its also important to note that different people want different things out of content. What if they want more then the kill?

    But this story was more to highlight that people can have personal opinions, with a good reason to have this opinion. And this opinion still being very wrong/dangerous/illogical. And as Cyn said earlier, their is a difference between a personal opinion, and a educated opinion.
    I do hope that you either find a group which works for you or find you don't like the content raids offer.

    Yes, absolutely, that's a fair point. Forgot to reply to that in between.

    I have experience enough to understand why I don't want pseudo-elitistic mentality in strike runs. I don't need to play strikes with them to understand why I don't want to play strikes with them. I neither need thousands of raid runs to realize that. It's just obvious that if you give them enough room, they will try to take over the game mode and make everyone play by their book. An idiot realizes that kittenheads in raids are no different from kittenheads in WvW, PvP or fractals, especially not after proving it so well.

    I've actually never seem the "elitist" try to take over. Giving info is not the same as wanting everyone to play by their standards. (Most elitists i met have actually encouraged experimentation). My experience is only raid related though.

    As a closer to my response here because it didn't really fit any specific part:

    -The reqs in strikes are also advantages to you as they allow you to not play with the people who put them on. And as you said they aren't nessecary to complete strikes so putting up you're own squad would be perfectly viable. :)

    -You seem to have a bad relationship with the other posters on this thread. i do hope you will have fruitfull conversations with them because even if you disagree with what they say, trying to grasp why they say these things will help you further.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    I think some of the strikes are too hard for pugs. Like Whisper of Jormag. Its just too long a fight and easy to die on. I can perfectly see why randoms is unwanted there.

    And we already have a way to make content harder, challenge motes.

  • Bakeneko.5826Bakeneko.5826 Member ✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    I think some of the strikes are too hard for pugs. Like Whisper of Jormag. Its just too long a fight and easy to die on. I can perfectly see why randoms is unwanted there.

    This, i don't want to do several tries at content i know experienced players can do properly on first try

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    I think some of the strikes are too hard for pugs. Like Whisper of Jormag. Its just too long a fight and easy to die on. I can perfectly see why randoms is unwanted there.

    And we already have a way to make content harder, challenge motes.

    Yeah.... Whilst I don't mind to teach other people, it certainly not some random pug (it'll be either guidie or friends and their friends too): speaking from experience, if you try to teach the random something in instanced content, most of the time they just stay silent without acknowledging that they heard you, yet still making the same mistake after the exp gave suggestions multiple times, several failed pulls and they just left still without a word, or left after only 1 strike/daily even if it was advertised as a full strike, then you'll have to go back on LFG again as well as shuffling roles around & wasted more times on it. With increasingly more strikes (& longer duration too -> looking at you, cold war) to add to the "daily strike list" after each release, times are getting more valuable if you only have let's say 1 hour but you're squeezing in more runs now, therefore efficiency comes into the priority. Also you can't track their improvement, never ask question, not like guidie who you'll get a few more runs with them therefore they stick around enough to listen to your advice.

    That said, which is the reason why if I do pug strikes I'd mostly do only the easy ones (Ice golem/FoJ/Bear), with the exception that joining the full strike squad when I see that there's a comm who do care to ask for specific roles. Otherwise, I usually prefer to join my friends/guild for the harder strikes. I don't have enough LI to join those cool kids, but I do understand their requirements.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blueberry.8095 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    I think some of the strikes are too hard for pugs. Like Whisper of Jormag. Its just too long a fight and easy to die on. I can perfectly see why randoms is unwanted there.

    And we already have a way to make content harder, challenge motes.

    Yeah.... Whilst I don't mind to teach other people, it certainly not some random pug (it'll be either guidie or friends and their friends too): speaking from experience, if you try to teach the random something in instanced content, most of the time they just stay silent without acknowledging that they heard you, yet still making the same mistake after the exp gave suggestions multiple times, several failed pulls and they just left still without a word, or left after only 1 strike/daily even if it was advertised as a full strike, then you'll have to go back on LFG again as well as shuffling roles around & wasted more times on it. With increasingly more strikes (& longer duration too -> looking at you, cold war) to add to the "daily strike list" after each release, times are getting more valuable if you only have let's say 1 hour but you're squeezing in more runs now, therefore efficiency comes into the priority. Also you can't track their improvement, never ask question, not like guidie who you'll get a few more runs with them therefore they stick around enough to listen to your advice.

    That said, which is the reason why if I do pug strikes I'd mostly do only the easy ones (Ice golem/FoJ/Bear), with the exception that joining the full strike squad when I see that there's a comm who do care to ask for specific roles. Otherwise, I usually prefer to join my friends/guild for the harder strikes. I don't have enough LI to join those cool kids, but I do understand their requirements.

    Unfortunately if you only go for specific strikes, its not finishing the weekly chest.

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Unfortunately if you only go for specific strikes, its not finishing the weekly chest.

    That's what "all strikes" squads are for & you only need to do everything once per week (I have a group of friends for that at least once per week), then need only the priority strike for the next 2 days till you have 3 free big crystals to open the weekly chest. Anything extra is for grinding gold and/or extra shards for Runic armor which is what most people are looking for when doing more than just the priority.

    In other words, out of the 7 days, you only need 1 day for all strikes + pug Forging steel normal mode, the rest of the week you can pick 2 other days when easy strike is on the rotation, if the weekly chest is the ONLY thing you're after.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    @TwinFrozr.6214 said:
    Misinformation is better than no information.

    I'm not gonna get between you two, but this statement is basically trump-level, which is not healthy for a serious discussion :smiley:

    I'm not responsible for whatever you can't comprehend. It's however an outrageously narrow sight to disbelieve everything you don't understand. Some things you have to accept for what they are, and if nothing else, before you get better information. One can actually elaborate on points and use logic, rather than simply saying "no".

    one can elaborate on points using logic. but if you elaborate on misinformation using logic, the only thing you will get out of it is more misinformation. otherwise youre not using logic.

    edit; to give you a mathematical example, because you love those so much :smiley: :
    If Person A asks "whats the value for 'x' in '2*x=4'?" it's always better to say "i dont know, ask someone who is properly informed" than to say "x=1. i dont have better information yet but trust me"
    following your statement, Person A should believe 2*1=4 because it would be narrow sighted to disbelieve it. and now we have two misinformed persons and it takes an actually informed person twice the effort to correct it, congrats.

  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Felipe.1807 said:
    the first time I did Boneskiner I took less then 30min with a full squad were nobody knew the encounter

    Was your first Boneskinner the incredibly easy, bugged version from its first few days?

    Oh I heard about that, was it bugged or just incredebly easy? Anyway, was not, I did mine after the Steel Warband Strike got added, needed some motivation to do the old strikes that I never bothered with and the new armor set did it lol

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2020

    @Felipe.1807 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Felipe.1807 said:
    the first time I did Boneskiner I took less then 30min with a full squad were nobody knew the encounter

    Was your first Boneskinner the incredibly easy, bugged version from its first few days?

    Oh I heard about that, was it bugged or just incredebly easy? Anyway, was not, I did mine after the Steel Warband Strike got added, needed some motivation to do the old strikes that I never bothered with and the new armor set did it lol

    As far as I know, it was simply bugged and couldn't use its abilities.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Ecoxiss.1079 said:
    80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too.

    Even if your "80%" weren't a complete fabrication and hyperbole, what is preventing you from just joining the other 20% or starting your own squad?

    Time brother, time ^^
    I have a reallife too xD

    That's exactly what the people that ask for li want to do as well. Saving time.
    They don't want to take someone with them that Sits there and doesn't really contribute to the boss kill.
    They want smooth and fast runs.
    They want to save time by not wiping, you want to save time by faster finding a group.
    Basically the exact same thing.

    Don't get me wrong. I don't like that as well even though I have like 2k li? I joined groups with no li requirements and they were faster than groups with requirements.

    Asking for li is most of the times just a "do you play a meta build, can u actually play it, and do you know that not doing the mechanics can wipe the group?" Question.

    I know the last point is rather weak, as there's currently only one strike, where you can actively kill others, but it's still a point to keep in mind.

    But most Li requirements groups will still let you join them if you say something like "don't have the li, but I know the mechanics and played the strike x-times already"
    If you mess up then, don't be surprised if they put you on their blocklist.

    80% arent complete fabrication. I saw it several days in a row and the other 20% are spread on all strikes not just the one i need/want to do in that moment. Im a good Player but im somewhat forced to get KP from other Content to do this one. That just cant be the solution. Arenanet just isnt listening or trying to fix their content. People are complaining about Raid lfg for a long time u know that yourself. They shouldnt have introduced new stuff (strikes) while the other still isnt working well. What use do 20.000 different Play Options have (Raids Fracs Strikes) if they arent working fine for the big part of the playerbase? So whats your solution for this?

    What makes you think that raid content isn't working?
    It's working just fine.
    I Know a lot of players that raided once, but never again went in there, because it was to hard for them.
    Spvp isn't working for the biggest part of the player base either.
    So we should just delete it right?

    Only open world content allowed.

    Let me tell you this: guildwars would loose a lot More players if they did that. Removed everything but braindead open world. That you can basically "play" by being afk for the most Parts.

  • WolfOwl.3968WolfOwl.3968 Member ✭✭

    I'm just going to start off by saying that asking for KP, AP, or what have you as "proof" of your skill is, for the most part, simply gate-keeping. Asking for KP from harder content like raids in "dumbed down" content like Strikes only further pushes the image of elitism. Furthermore it's not a good metric of actual skill, since as it's been noted multiple times in this thread that people can be carried and gain completion.
    That being said I don't think groups requesting KP are in the wrong. There are always going to be players that simply want to complete the content without much hassle, and I get that.
    The problem is one of perception. Players looking to get into Raids or other content may not be familiar with the Raid training guilds and other resources, and they'll look to the LFG for options. Where they'll be met with the seemingly impossible to pass gate-keeping. And that's where many will simply give up.
    But without the new blood coming into raids or strikes the content will die off as veteran players get frustrated at the lack of new content, due to a perceived lack of interest in the content by Anet, and move on. As vet players leave new blood needs to replace them or the player-base dwindles, and the content is abandoned.
    Fractals aren't going anywhere because they're so accessible, and an earnest player can learn their skills to move up into the higher difficulty tiers. But that same player who wants to improve may be turned off from even the "bridge" content of Strikes by seeing groups asking for KP from harder content. It implies a skill level of play that isn't achievable right out of the gate is required simply to enter the content.
    KP/LI groups aren't in the wrong, but maybe they're shooting themselves in the foot.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    @WolfOwl.3968 said:
    I'm just going to start off by saying that asking for KP, AP, or what have you as "proof" of your skill is, for the most part, simply gate-keeping. Asking for KP from harder content like raids in "dumbed down" content like Strikes only further pushes the image of elitism. Furthermore it's not a good metric of actual skill, since as it's been noted multiple times in this thread that people can be carried and gain completion.
    That being said I don't think groups requesting KP are in the wrong. There are always going to be players that simply want to complete the content without much hassle, and I get that.
    The problem is one of perception. Players looking to get into Raids or other content may not be familiar with the Raid training guilds and other resources, and they'll look to the LFG for options. Where they'll be met with the seemingly impossible to pass gate-keeping. And that's where many will simply give up.
    But without the new blood coming into raids or strikes the content will die off as veteran players get frustrated at the lack of new content, due to a perceived lack of interest in the content by Anet, and move on. As vet players leave new blood needs to replace them or the player-base dwindles, and the content is abandoned.
    Fractals aren't going anywhere because they're so accessible, and an earnest player can learn their skills to move up into the higher difficulty tiers. But that same player who wants to improve may be turned off from even the "bridge" content of Strikes by seeing groups asking for KP from harder content. It implies a skill level of play that isn't achievable right out of the gate is required simply to enter the content.
    KP/LI groups aren't in the wrong, but maybe they're shooting themselves in the foot.

    Fractals have had less content releases than raids.
    If I was forced to play with new people every single time I wanted to play raids or strikes, I just woundnt bother doing them at all. Or would go and then call out the people who do 2k dps creating more tension.
    Id rather enjoy the content now and let it die, than have it ruined for me by being forced to play with people who are totally not ready to do it in the first place.

  • WolfOwl.3968WolfOwl.3968 Member ✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Id rather enjoy the content now and let it die, than have it ruined for me by being forced to play with people who are totally not ready to do it in the first place.

    That's totally your choice. I'm just saying a little encouragement now could repay itself later, but maybe that's just me.

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @WolfOwl.3968 said:
    I'm just going to start off by saying that asking for KP, AP, or what have you as "proof" of your skill is, for the most part, simply gate-keeping.

    Is it really gatekeeping? Asking for kp doesn't prevent anyone from playing the content. Anyone can make a squad.

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
    ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?
    If they would pull that kitten on me, i would sue instantly. And i have enough time and money to finish that.
    Balance? More like a bunch of random nerfs done by interns.

  • WolfOwl.3968WolfOwl.3968 Member ✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    I dont think I should be forced into teaching players content every day, which is what alot of people are advocating for in this thread.

    I actually agree with you there, forcing other's to accept you in a group is toxic behavior.

    @knite.1542 said:
    Is it really gatekeeping? Asking for kp doesn't prevent anyone from playing the content. Anyone can make a squad.

    Since no content is barred to any player there's no effective way to actually gate-keep. But it discourages new players or inexperienced ones from even attempting the content, effectively acting as a psychological barrier.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    @WolfOwl.3968 said:

    Since no content is barred to any player there's no effective way to actually gate-keep. But it discourages new players or inexperienced ones from even attempting the content, effectively acting as a psychological barrier.

    that's my stance on it aswell. I have done 1-2 strikes before people started with these absurd requirements. even in gw1 people were happy enough to allow newcomers in guilds/groups and teaching them the content. The keyproblem for me is that a lot of players think dpswise is the only way to do the content. It is true that glassy play gets more rewarded than tanky play. since glasscannons have been meta from day 1 it shouldn't be a big problem for players to do decent dps even if they don't follow the rotation. for me it is just a matter of 10 more seconds.

    Another thing I might add is the fact that you get rewarded for most content pretty easily. I personally don't like it, because it gives a false sense of accomplishment. It pretty much erodes the option for tougher cotent, because people don't get frustrated.

    gw2 biggest problem has been that you don't have specific roles. in most scs in gw1 you have a very specific build that works for this specific situation and each skill is used for a different purpose. here all is just spam.

    A funny thing that happened to me once was that a raid player told me following rotations is super important, but easiest class to join raid is thief.... a class with 0 CDs. I don't really consider this skill, because you can use all the skills you like without facing a penalty when not. And another tried to tell me it isn't that necessary unless you want to improve, but was unable to show-off with his Li.

    In fact, coming back to teaching, it ensures players propably are more likely to give the content another try. slowly growing number of players. Just recently I heard raids are pretty much dead, because playerpool is too small and bigger guilds can do them only.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    tl;dr
    If strikes are meant as a stepping stone to raids, why then are the seemingly more hard-core raiders doing strikes?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • zaekeon.5128zaekeon.5128 Member ✭✭✭

    I haven’t looked at strike missions yet, I guess when I want to start I’ll be screwed because the LFG is taking on the WoW mentality?

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @zaekeon.5128 said:
    I haven’t looked at strike missions yet, I guess when I want to start I’ll be screwed because the LFG is taking on the WoW mentality?

    If you think you can't join any strike squad because there are li squads on the lfg you will never complete a single strike mission only thanks to your own approach.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zaekeon.5128 said:
    I haven’t looked at strike missions yet, I guess when I want to start I’ll be screwed because the LFG is taking on the WoW mentality?

    When I want to do Strike Missions, I simply open a squad without requirements.
    I can only suggest you to do the same.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    tl;dr
    If strikes are meant as a stepping stone to raids, why then are the seemingly more hard-core raiders doing strikes?

    Better rewards.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    If strikes are meant as a stepping stone to raids, why then are the seemingly more hard-core raiders doing strikes?

    Because the raiders have already finished their first, second or third full clear of that week.
    Because strike missions are new content.
    Because strike missions have some new and exclusive rewards.
    Because they are quick and easy content for when you have a bit of time in between doing something else.
    Because they will fail as a steeping stone, but can still succeed as recycled instanced content built from assets originally created for story or open world purposes.
    I am pretty sure that I have missed a few reasons, but that is all I could think of.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    tl;dr
    If strikes are meant as a stepping stone to raids, why then are the seemingly more hard-core raiders doing strikes?

    Better rewards.

    Wow. I don't raid, so I didn't know that this was the case. If so, then to me it seems that strikes may have failed in their intention. I would think that the better rewards would be in raids to encourage that progression from strikes. Guess this is why I'm not a game developer.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    tl;dr
    If strikes are meant as a stepping stone to raids, why then are the seemingly more hard-core raiders doing strikes?

    Better rewards.

    Wow. I don't raid, so I didn't know that this was the case. If so, then to me it seems that strikes may have failed in their intention. I would think that the better rewards would be in raids to encourage that progression from strikes. Guess this is why I'm not a game developer.

    Well when counting that you can do strikes daily the rewards are better then weekly raid clear yes.

  • Nightcore.5621Nightcore.5621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2020

    So half the people in lfg ask for 200Li kp. Strike missions was suppose to be the step before raids or help people get into raids.. you all see the problem here?

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Odd, I use the LFG for Strike Missions all the time, and I've only seen 1 listing asking for 'LI' or 'kp'.
    Might be a region thing, I guess.

  • Memoranda.9386Memoranda.9386 Member ✭✭✭

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    Odd, I use the LFG for Strike Missions all the time, and I've only seen 1 listing asking for 'LI' or 'kp'.
    Might be a region thing, I guess.

    Possible. I did Strikes every day for 6-8 weeks for Runic armor and can't recall every seeing an LI requirement on a LFG posting.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    200 kp might seem harsh, but keep in mind that it also wards off the iconic bearbow-tier player, for whom strikes were not designed.

  • Algreg.3629Algreg.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    so you join the half that does not require those?

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    Strikes have better loot and they are daily
    Being faster in them results in better loot
    So raiderscome there for the loot not for learning to go raids xD
    You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING. You rly dont need the loot at strikes. You can go dragon fall or drizzlewood coast for better loots or farm bjora chests if u want loot

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Let people play with the people they want to play with. If advertising a LI requirement helps them do so, so be it. When my guild is short a person or two we advertise need more, all welcome, and fill up within seconds.. You can too.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Meh ... there are just some crazy people. Like those asking for LI to do Shiverpeak Pass 🤪

    On the other hand I was also in a group the other day that insisted on doing Cold War with 0 healer.

    As for strikes being a step to raids, I don't think any of them would help with that except maybe WoJ.