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Li / Killproof for Strikes are a Problem

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  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    Yes yes u are true but if anet reduces the loot from strikes they will probably die after a while bec casuals will learn them and step into raiding and will not look back for doing strikes again and current raiders wouldnt do it too.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    Yes yes u are true but if anet reduces the loot from strikes they will probably die after a while bec casuals will learn them and step into raiding and will not look back for doing strikes again and current raiders wouldnt do it too.

    Isnt that what they wanted?

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    Selling in game stuff and services for in game gold is fine and should actually be encouraged.

    No, this dilutes the already small player base for raids.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    The LI/KP system is something we have in the game for years. It is necessary so experienced players can play in groups which meet their quality standards.

    and

    I would like to see a better LFG for the Strike Missions. So players who are interested in trying this content out do not get into the same channel as the experienced players. Just a split into starter & experienced. Both with their own LFG and LFM channel. That would stop the confusion in my opinion.

    As you said, having requirements for content is necessary for experienced players and that's perfectly fine, however, the problem with Strike Missions is that they require "proofs" from content that they are supposed to be the "bridge" to. Even if they add two different LFG sections, one for starter players and one for experienced players, the main problem would still be there, the experienced section requiring kill proofs from Raids, so a Strike player will forever stay a "starter" player, unless they first go into Raids, get LI/KP and then go back to Strike Missions to try the experienced section. It's a bit backwards and splitting LFG entries would not fix this problem. It would help starter players get into starter groups, but they would never be given the chance to go to experienced groups, as they cannot earn what is required to do so by playing Strike Missions using the "starter" LFG. Even training Raids allow you to earn LI/KP to join actual Raids.

    The better solution would be to add something similar to LI/KP from actual Strike Missions. Something to prove that a player has experience in a specific Strike Mission so experienced teams don't have to rely on proofs from other content. There is a lot of hate and drama over the concept of kill proofs which is maybe why Arenanet decided to not have anything of the sort for Strike Missions, but this backfired. The shards/crystals aren't good enough as you can get them from multiple strike missions ranging from ridiculously easy, to mid difficulty, they are no indication of experience. Or an even better solution, make clearly visible the amount of times a player has finished the content so there is no pinging, no external websites, no hoarding of items, no drama involved. Just like Fractal level and agony resistance.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

    Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    @Nightcore.5621 said:
    So half the people in lfg ask for 200Li kp. Strike missions was suppose to be the step before raids or help people get into raids.. you all see the problem here?

    Find it unnecessary or too high for a requirement as well. But what you could've done is form your own group(a lower requirement or none at all; your standards, not theirs). You don't need to join or beat them in their conditions, set your LFG criteria and standard. If its widely accepted and everyone does the same. In a way, you won.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.

    Yeah, that's kinda how I see it, too.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • WolfOwl.3968WolfOwl.3968 Member ✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Perhaps if ANet were providing raid encounters in addition to Strikes, the alleged people calling for KP would have something to do.

    Raiders have reached a point where they NEED new blood in raids to keep the content active, but are actively discouraging new raiders with group requirements that eliminate 99% of the player-base. I had one person outright tell me they'd rather the content die than have to play it with inexperienced players, which is pretty much what's happening. Two points:
    1. Yes, I know that experienced players often just want to easily clear the content, and will use whatever means at their disposal to create a group of experienced players to do so. I honestly see nothing wrong with this and am not arguing against it.
    2. Nobody should be forced to play with people they don't want to play with.

    However, creating groups with KP requirements sends a very clear message to new players, you're not welcome here. And with raider groups doing the same thing in Strikes it won't be long before new blood for that content dries up, and Arenanet abandons it.

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    Legendary armor is the better loot and incentive to do Raids. But they should certainly look at the rewards again since it appears that their introductory content has better short term rewards.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    Selling in game stuff and services for in game gold is fine and should actually be encouraged.

    No, this dilutes the already small player base for raids.

    If anything, it keeps the sellers somewhat interested, and lets buyers see raids. Without it, the number of players raiding might be even smaller than it is now.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • WolfOwl.3968WolfOwl.3968 Member ✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    If anything, it keeps the sellers somewhat interested, and lets buyers see raids. Without it, the number of players raiding might be even smaller than it is now.

    That'll have the same effect as the KP issue, players will see that they either need KP or gold to do raids and will be turned off to the content.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Perhaps if ANet were providing raid encounters in addition to Strikes, the alleged people calling for KP would have something to do. The truth is, at this point, that strikes are replacing raids, not leading up to them. While that may be a temporary state of affairs, many MMO players do not take the long view.

    Unfortunately that's not how people work. The easy strikes, no one asks for Li or Kp, and if they do they're just being ridiculous. For the harder strikes people ask for some sort of "proof of proficiency" just to get things over with fast and without explaining. Having more raids would not change that. people who want a fast run will still ask for "proof of proficiency" and people who don't have said proof will not be able to obtain said proof in these groups.

    Why bother, just delete the official Forum.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.

    Yeah, that's kinda how I see it, too.

    Tbh, I remember someone posting that they got over their anxiety with regards to instanced content using strikes. As such its not a complete failure. :)

    Although we need more data to make an actual informed opinion. :)

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.

    This is poor logic.
    Are fractals a failure because they hard bake in an experience check via AR?

    Just because Strikes are on farm and the farmers expect certain things from their groups does not say anything about the actual content or the way the majority of the population is using it.
    And from my experience (200+ strikes running Open Pugs) and looking at the numbers in Arc a very wide range of skill levels are represented by the players are joining my groups.

    Your statement is no different than calling the most successful map in the game a failure because LFGs expect a player to be experienced enough know what RIBA means.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.

    This is poor logic.
    Are fractals a failure because they hard bake in an experience check via AR?

    Just because Strikes are on farm and the farmers expect certain things from their groups does not say anything about the actual content or the way the majority of the population is using it.
    And from my experience (200+ strikes running Open Pugs) and looking at the numbers in Arc a very wide range of skill levels are represented by the players are joining my groups.

    Your statement is no different than calling the most successful map in the game a failure because LFGs expect a player to be experienced enough know what RIBA means.

    Silverwastes isn't really designed to be a stepping stone to other content, so this comparison would not seem to be accurate. It has nothing to do with the similarity that you're attempting to provide with regards to fractals -- AR is there by design.

    What is being said is that the intention of strikes as a stepping stone to raids is where strikes are failing. IMO, raiders should be raiding and not hanging out in strike missions but it seems that they are because the rewards are better in strikes. And because raiders are farming strikes for rewards, they are looking for specific thresholds to be met which may be preventing non-raid players from experiencing the content and thus keeping them out of raids.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    @kmfart.7480 said:
    The root of the problem is that a few of the strike missions are way too harsh, that they are even harder than a few of the raids.

    "Harder than a few of the raids"? =) In what universe? :lol: All the Strike Missions are easy peasy as long as everyone plays their role right and knows the mechanics. Some just require a bit more focus, that's all.

  • Blockhead Magee.3092Blockhead Magee.3092 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Am I to understand that someone LFG shouldn't be able to party up with people that they want to hang out with then?

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    IMO, raiders should be raiding and not hanging out in strike missions (...) which may be preventing non-raid players from experiencing the content (...)

    lets imagine two scenarios:
    1. not a single raider is playing strikes, thus there are no squads with LI-requirements etc. in the lfg. but there are also less players doing strikes overall.
    2. you type "-LI" into the search bar in the lfg window. now every lfg with "LI" in it is filtered out.

    whats the difference for you as a non-raider???
    how are other people's lfgs preventing you from doing strikes???

  • WolfOwl.3968WolfOwl.3968 Member ✭✭

    These threads really need to be merged or something

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    All the Strike Missions Escort, Cairn, MO, etc. are easy peasy as long as everyone plays their role right and knows the mechanics. Some just require a bit more focus, that's all.

    there you go :smiley:

  • Rhiannon.1726Rhiannon.1726 Member ✭✭✭

    Many experienced raiders do a lot to bring new players to raids. There are dedicated guilds for raid trainings and training discords.
    Other guilds (like Snow Crows) put a lot of work into creating the best builds (includinig guides how to play them).
    An EU raid training guild (RTI) made lots of raidinig PoV videos:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/gbx4ae/my_guild_prepared_a_massive_list_of_raiding_pov/.

    When I started raiding, there were no guides, no experienced leaders and hardly anyone had ascended equipment. It took us weeks to get Vale Guardian down. Nowadays in a wing 1 training VG should be dead and Gorseval as well. A wing 4 training often ends with bosses 1-3 killed.

    What else do people want? You can get everything very fast. You just have to join a guild or discord server.

    If that is still too much: open lfg, join a strike (Grothmar, Kodan, Fraenir) without requirements, ca. 5 min later you have your kill.

    PS: Sorry if my text sounds a bit harsh. I'm just annoyed that some people call everyone who raids toxic in general, while many raiders put a lot of work into helping newbies to get started.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Perhaps if ANet were providing raid encounters in addition to Strikes, the alleged people calling for KP would have something to do. The truth is, at this point, that strikes are replacing raids, not leading up to them. While that may be a temporary state of affairs, many MMO players do not take the long view.

    Unfortunately that's not how people work. The easy strikes, no one asks for Li or Kp, and if they do they're just being ridiculous. For the harder strikes people ask for some sort of "proof of proficiency" just to get things over with fast and without explaining. Having more raids would not change that. people who want a fast run will still ask for "proof of proficiency" and people who don't have said proof will not be able to obtain said proof in these groups.

    Maybe you're right. The weekly reset for raids would probably mean that even if there were new raids, some raiders would still want something else to occupy their time which they deem remotely worthy of their attention.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Anyone who tells you "Just make your own group xD!" doesn't understand that you can't magically make 9 other competent players appear out of nowhere. All the competent players will join the """good""" groups and you'll be stuck with scraps because they get to play in their own part of the playground while you're stuck on the broken down part that smells.

    everyone on the lfg has to make x other players "appear out of nowhere". thats what the lfg is for!
    depending on the time there are probably hundreds of players looking at their screen waiting for a decent lfg to pop up.
    if only 1/10 of those players made their own group - problem solved.

    also, you pretty precisely described why people ask for LI in the first place.
    nobody wants to be "stuck on the broken down part that smells". especially if youre used to play on the brand new shiny part.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    @WolfOwl.3968 said:
    Raiders have reached a point where they NEED new blood in raids to keep the content active, but are actively discouraging new raiders with group requirements that eliminate 99% of the player-base.

    and as always, we're ignoring the fact that there are lots of raiders actively ENcouraging new players...
    maybe people should stop lighting the dark part of the raiding community and help make the bright part glow more instead.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    What else do people want?

    People actually using the LFG tool to advertise their training runs.
    People actually pugging raids in the LFG tool all around the clock.

    How about the easier mode people have been asking about for years now?

    You just have to join a guild or discord server.

    Not everyone wants to dedicate themselves to a guild.
    Not everyone wants to use a third party program that gets worse with every single update and wasn't even all that good to begin with.

  • Sheader.6827Sheader.6827 Member ✭✭

    Its reasonable if players want to achieve gold rewards. If you want gold in Whisper of Jormag then you need players that know how.

    If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well it were done quickly. That but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all—here.
    Macbeth Act 1, scene 7

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    even most 250+LI groups cant manage to get gold on WoJ...

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭

    I find it funny people don't create their own groups. Post your group description something like this "Relaxed Strikes" you generally find like minded people there. Because just like the hardcore DPS checking LI groups don't want casuals in their party you also don't necessarily want hardcore people in your group either.

    Funny story my static raid group decided to run strikes after our weekly run and we had one spot available so we decided to pug it. We had everyone in our group just mess around with meme builds and the pug got so angry because our DPS was low. We were laughing so hard on discord that the tears were falling let me tell you. It didn't help that we were trying to kill each other during the strike for fun. Keep in mind we one killed everything on our first attempt we just were having fun while doing it.

    Lesson being we should have saved that guy the head ache of our group if we would have mentioned in the posting that we were not taking it as serious has he would have liked. So I believe that having descriptions that show the mindset of your group is very helpful in keeping the toxicity low in the long run.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • Sheader.6827Sheader.6827 Member ✭✭

    Banning KP/LI listing? That sounds downright ridiculous.

    If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well it were done quickly. That but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all—here.
    Macbeth Act 1, scene 7

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    I am just going to say it. There are a lot of easier raid encounters than some of the Strike missions.

    With the current reward system, I expect Raids -> Strikes will mirror what happened with Dungeons -> Fractals.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I am just going to say it. There are a lot of easier raid encounters than some of the Strike missions.

    Not really, just differing group qualities/levels of attention and effort put in which evens out some of the perceived difficulty.
    While Wing 4 has some really easy bosses, I don't think a group struggling with WoJ or Boneskinner would fare better on Cairn or MO (which are probably the easiest and most comparable Raid Bosses with Cairns Shared Agony and WoJ Chains, and MO's Spikes with Boneskinner's Crushing Cruelty?), let alone any of the other Wings/bosses.
    I've seen 250 LI groups managing to wipe on Cairn somehow, meanwhile I've never heard of any Raider struggling with any Strike past the first 1-2 attempts learning the encounter.

    Unless maybe if we count things like W7's Gate event as "Raid encounters", Raids are still quite a step above any Strike, given the same player skill level and effort put in across the group.

    A good raid ready group generally full clears Strikes (excluding the event/time gated ones like Forged Steel and Cold War) in 15-20 minutes, with the potential of even a freak accident wipe not even being a real possibility.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭

    As long as anet does not have proper tools to give players the ability to filter out the wheat from the chaff, players will fill that void with flawed methods. I think this problem would go away with a proper inspection function.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nightcore.5621 said:
    Help me understant this

    Ok, you see if content has some mechanics that turn it into a drag if other people don't do whatever the content wants them to do properly then players tend to want to avoid getting into these kinds of situations so they put up some requirements to make sure to not get into a situation where it turns into a drag. LIs are just the thing that came to mind for most people so they go with it.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Anyone who tells you "Just make your own group xD!" doesn't understand that you can't magically make 9 other competent players appear out of nowhere. All the competent players will join the """good""" groups and you'll be stuck with scraps because they get to play in their own part of the playground while you're stuck on the broken down part that smells.

    The solution is to make strike missions queueable only content with no premade function outside of duo/trio.

    However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.

    The raiders are the ones doing the mental gymnastics, huh?

    First casuals argue that Raids are super niche content that barely anyone plays and should be discontinued, then after Raids are seemingly cancelled they argue that all the groups everywhere for the next best content require Raid KP and how huge of an issue this is somehow.
    Where are all these Raiders to make and join these supposedly majority gated groups coming from?

    Also who says anything about "magically making 9 other competent players appear out of nowhere"? You put up an LFG and search for them, just like everyone else. Depending on the level of competency you want, you add requirements (experienced, specific roles, KP).
    Are you saying all competent players in the game are Raiders? And that all of those only join LI gated groups?
    And you don't want to be "stuck with the scraps" as you say, but you want to force Raiders to be?

    The real design failure at play here is that the majority of the game teaches it's players that they have the privilege to get carried through everything. For OW and such, you never have to make a group, you never have to communicate, you never have to really try as individual contribution doesn't really matter, while a hardcore player can casually do 30-50% of the DPS of a 30 player squad in a meta event and nobody is non the wiser about it.

    Then that mindset is taken into Raids and Strikes and obviously leads to clashes as that doesn't work anymore. People expect those same players to organise groups for them, communicate and teach what to do on their own accord (while refusing any communication themselves, including their need for assistance) and to then carry all the mechanics, support roles and damage for them while they are along for the ride as usual. But that only works as long as the content expects nothing to very little of it's players and starts falling apart in slightly harder Strike Missions (WoJ, Bone) and especially in Raids.

    Forcing players of vastly different skill levels and expectations to play together with some blind queue isn't going to fix that. It's just going to extrapolate frustration and toxicity from "both" sides, while likely driving both the strongest and weakest links away from the content by providing an RNG group experience that isn't satisfying for anyone.

    So yes, I'm afraid the only solution is for players to just step up and make their own groups in which they like to play in. No magical conjuring of players needed, just ask for what you want.
    If there truly are more KP gated groups than everybody welcome groups (which I believe to be false, they just stick around longer as they fill more slowly, leading to the perception of a larger presence on the LFG at times), that's still not the fault of Raiders making their own groups, it's of non Raiders not making theirs.

    @WolfOwl.3968 said:
    However, creating groups with KP requirements sends a very clear message to new players, you're not welcome here.

    It doesn't though, not really. Creating a group with requirements says just that, here is what you need to be welcome in this particular group (specific role, proof of experience, etc.).
    People need to get over their fear of stepping up themselves and create the environment they want to see on their own, rather than lashing out at those who do just that for themselves.
    Nobody is sending a message to the community with their LFG's, they are just looking for players that they want to play with, a power which is in the hands of everybody, including new players.

    The very idea that I as someone with LI etc. would look at a "Training run, new players welcome" LFG and think to myself, "well, I guess I'm not welcome in this entire content", instead of just making my own group for whom I'd like to play with, is ridiculous, just as this other way around is.

    @Hyrai.8720 said:
    everyone on the lfg has to make x other players "appear out of nowhere". thats what the lfg is for!
    depending on the time there are probably hundreds of players looking at their screen waiting for a decent lfg to pop up.
    if only 1/10 of those players made their own group - problem solved.

    Exactly.
    I frequently see everybody welcome groups fill up within literally seconds, while LI gated groups stay around for a while.
    This means that 1. LI groups seems a lot more prevalent than they are since they are sticking around for longer and 2. way too many people are too afraid to just put up their own LFG, desperately waiting for someone else to put in the "work" to then quickly catch a ride, but then complain when they have to wait/can't find a group, along with with enough other players to fill who knows how many squads of which nobody wants to step up as well.

    Everything is indeed the casuals fault or the opposite, the elitists fault as per the usual, there is no in between. Heh.

  • Blude.6812Blude.6812 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katary.7096 said:

    You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

    LOL, Horses know that the water is bad , of course they won't drink.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020

    @WolfOwl.3968 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    If anything, it keeps the sellers somewhat interested, and lets buyers see raids. Without it, the number of players raiding might be even smaller than it is now.

    That'll have the same effect as the KP issue, players will see that they either need KP or gold to do raids and will be turned off to the content.

    No, they get turned off to the content (or buy it with gold) because it's too difficult for them to do on their own.

    @Hyrai.8720 said:
    "EaSy MoDeS aRe FaiLiNg As A sTePpInG sToNe"

    That's because the whole idea of a "stepping stone to raids" is faulty. If people are not raiding it's not because they have no stepping stones to it, but because, for some reason or another, they either don't want to raid, or are not good enough to raid.
    And no, due to how the game skill and combat systems are designed, neither strikes nor easy mode, nor any other kind of content will make players better. They can only improve completely on their own - and if they aren't doing it now, they are not likely to do it in the future, no matter how many "stepping stones" will get introduced.

    If people ask for easy mode raids, it's usually not because they want a road to raids, but because they want a raidlike content designed around their skill level. Some of those players eventually graduating to higher difficulty tiers is an added bonus, not a main goal.

    The only people truly interested in stepping stones to raids are raiders and devs, so people that don't really intend to use it themselves.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    it would be better for anet to put serious effort into changing the culture of end game PvE. The game is dying without an influx of new players. New players come and no one wants to play with them. People say to them, "well then start your own group with no expertise, doesn't matter if you have no idea what you're doing." That's not right. Maybe anet should give more incentives to bringing along new players. it honestly won't kill a group to bring in 1 or 2 new people per run. but there is so much incentive to exclude these players, and so little to include them. Maybe the next xpac will come with a new system to fix this.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    Many experienced raiders do a lot to bring new players to raids. There are dedicated guilds for raid trainings and training discords.
    Other guilds (like Snow Crows) put a lot of work into creating the best builds (includinig guides how to play them).
    An EU raid training guild (RTI) made lots of raidinig PoV videos:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/gbx4ae/my_guild_prepared_a_massive_list_of_raiding_pov/.

    When I started raiding, there were no guides, no experienced leaders and hardly anyone had ascended equipment. It took us weeks to get Vale Guardian down. Nowadays in a wing 1 training VG should be dead and Gorseval as well. A wing 4 training often ends with bosses 1-3 killed.

    What else do people want? You can get everything very fast. You just have to join a guild or discord server.

    If that is still too much: open lfg, join a strike (Grothmar, Kodan, Fraenir) without requirements, ca. 5 min later you have your kill.

    PS: Sorry if my text sounds a bit harsh. I'm just annoyed that some people call everyone who raids toxic in general, while many raiders put a lot of work into helping newbies to get started.

    They are not after guides or help. Some just want to join KP/Li squads without those or see that kind of squads removed from LFG. Who cares there is plethora of help out there. Even though apparently there is large amount of people who want to do strikes/raids that do not have KP, they are unable to create their own no-kp squads. Instead of actually putting minimal amount of effort into that, it's better to make 20 forum posts about how toxic elitists gatekeep everybody from very easy strikes that are entrance to raids...

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    it would be better for anet to put serious effort into changing the culture of end game PvE. The game is dying without an influx of new players. New players come and no one wants to play with them. People say to them, "well then start your own group with no expertise, doesn't matter if you have no idea what you're doing." That's not right. Maybe anet should give more incentives to bringing along new players. it honestly won't kill a group to bring in 1 or 2 new people per run. but there is so much incentive to exclude these players, and so little to include them. Maybe the next xpac will come with a new system to fix this.

    It would be better if ANet actually added training strike with tons of achievements and decent one-time rewards that explain every single mechanic in the game from CC, condi, condi duration, boons, target limit, range, stacking etc. We already have the technology. They could literally hire an intern like they did for wintersday raid to do it. This would actually help new players understand the game and get better at it. Step by step. It's not our job to fix it.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020

    Do yu wanna know the real problem?
    People who are joining a LFG looking to get carried.

    That's the real problem.

    Imo, just make a system that acknowledges yu cleared a content, and based on a performance average, gives the player a grade.
    If people want only Grade A players for their LFG, they just set it to Grade A finder and see if people bite.

    If people wanna be Elitist, so be it.
    If people wanna be a slug and mooch off people, they can look elsewhere.

    While I abhor Elitist players, I absolutely detest players who aren't putting effort and want to be carried for a clear.
    And if yur gonna cry and say "omg endgame is so unfair and unwelcoming to new players" then go elsewhere.

    Endgame is meant to be tough, endgame is meant to be unrelenting.
    (PS. Anet, stop giving us these watered down strikes pretending they are the new endgame. Yu already decided to do Fractals as a way to replace dungeons, I swear to god if yu seriously think Strikes can replace Raids, yur sadly mistaken.)

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    What else do people want?

    People actually using the LFG tool to advertise their training runs.
    People actually pugging raids in the LFG tool all around the clock.

    How about the easier mode people have been asking about for years now?

    You just have to join a guild or discord server.

    Not everyone wants to dedicate themselves to a guild.
    Not everyone wants to use a third party program that gets worse with every single update and wasn't even all that good to begin with.

    LFG training runs always end up the same. 1-2 people leaving after 1 try, resulting in more time spent sitting in LFG than in the raid itself. And 1 guy who joins who is terribly unprepard to raid, and wastes the other 9 peoples time because they dont even have an appropriate build. The reason people organize trainings outside LFG is to ensure people will commit to practice, and listen to the comm. Its an awful experience trying to lead a LFG training.

    As long as new players keep trying to use the LFG tool alone to learn raids, they are always going to have a miserable experience. There are hundreds of guilds and thousands of guides out there for players to learn from. Complaining that other raiders wont teach them entirely on their terms is super entitled. Raiders are literally giving new players hours and hours of their free time to help them, and new players still refuse to accept it because it requires more effort than open world content.

    If players dont want to either join a guild or use discord then they will have to accept that they wont be getting 90% of the help raiders offer. This is because GW2 has no way of organizing planned events ahead of time in game, and has no voice chat feature to facilitate organisation. They should be pushing for those features instead of calling raiders toxic.

    Noone is going to pug raids at 5am because 90% of the playerbase is alseep. Fractals, strikes, HOT/POF metas, bounties are all dead at this time too so thats just a ridiculous request.

  • kajoken.1630kajoken.1630 Member ✭✭

    Yesterday I joined a full run that just wanted some kp, not even much. Still at the end that one firebrand, that did an absolute kitten job btw, whispered me out of nowhere and insulted me. So no, Li is not the problem but the attitude of players. Even in low LI groups you'll find those toxics that just want to get carried. I'd rather join a 250-500 Li group than carrying one single player again.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    Many experienced raiders do a lot to bring new players to raids. There are dedicated guilds for raid trainings and training discords.
    Other guilds (like Snow Crows) put a lot of work into creating the best builds (includinig guides how to play them).
    An EU raid training guild (RTI) made lots of raidinig PoV videos:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/gbx4ae/my_guild_prepared_a_massive_list_of_raiding_pov/.

    When I started raiding, there were no guides, no experienced leaders and hardly anyone had ascended equipment. It took us weeks to get Vale Guardian down. Nowadays in a wing 1 training VG should be dead and Gorseval as well. A wing 4 training often ends with bosses 1-3 killed.

    What else do people want? You can get everything very fast. You just have to join a guild or discord server.

    If that is still too much: open lfg, join a strike (Grothmar, Kodan, Fraenir) without requirements, ca. 5 min later you have your kill.

    PS: Sorry if my text sounds a bit harsh. I'm just annoyed that some people call everyone who raids toxic in general, while many raiders put a lot of work into helping newbies to get started.

    Those training guilds are literally why the raiding player base is so small and constantly shrinking, by the way. Stop bringing it up.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/dol3ga/is_raiding_dead_na_server/

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

    LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.
    Who would have thought that