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Li / Killproof for Strikes are a Problem

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  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020

    Find it weird as well. It was the same back during dungeon days. There was an external platform to form groups instead of using ingame LFG :sweat_smile:. There are some groups in LFG (on and off) thats about it. Most raids squads are formed within or among guilds and discord platform.

    May be difficult to find PuG groups through LFG. But there are ways to start, as most of the players I know and in my friend list are able to join raids without any problem despite being new.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    If strikes are so easy why do you complain about not getting into groups of good players?

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

    Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

    Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Find it weird as well. It was the same back during dungeon days.

    Yes. The notable difference was that the groups without requirements (or with only basic ones, like "level 80 casual run") were as likely to succeed as those with high reqs. The only difference was in completion time. So, if someone didn't like the requirements, starting a "casual run" group was indeed a solution - and depending on the dungeon and path, quite often the time you lost running a past was balanced by the simple expedient of the no req groups filling way, way faster. So, while there were some complains about "elitism" in some dungeon groups, if someone didn't like that, it was extremely easy to completely ignore.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

    Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

    Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

    I know of some individuals who prefer spending their KP (and LI) on guild decors and legendary armor - though ofc theres the website for killproofing, but not all players (or commanders) have the patience to check that.

    For what it's worth, I do think people should respect each others' LFG posts. If someone asks for specific amount of kp, bring the kp or do not join.

    Besides that, I can tell you that while some people are content and capable in raids and CM fractals and are able to get more KP, they might not have the time investment or static group or interest to stock up specific amount of KP. People play at a different pace and do different things. That does not mean one is less capable.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.

    Oh, that was obvious from the beginning, even before the first strikes appeared.
    Raids don't have big enough playerbase not because there are no stairs leading to them, but because they are a content that's either not interesting enough or too difficult (or both) for too many players. Adding some intermediate content is not going to change that. Strikes will not magically improve the skill of players running them. They will simply filter out the players according to their own difficulty level (which could be used to help Anet in deciding on where to put the difficulty level to get big enough participation for content).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020

    @Eramonster.2718 said:

    May be difficult to find PuG groups through LFG. But there are ways to start, as most of the players I know and in my friend list are able to join raids without any problem despite being new.

    The reason why people don't rely on LFG to gather members is because LFG has no way to gate badly geared or unprepared players for the content.

    Such is a symptom of a game catered to a casual crowd :
    Gear progression stagnates, content is either too easy which causes people to grow bored due to a lack of challenge or the content provides a challenge but the public community is too unprepared to tackle it. (latter case being some raids)

    This is why people come up with KPing so that people can prove that they are prepared for challenging content.

    So if OP wants KPing, and the toxicity revolving KPing to go away, Anet themselves must introduce settings inside LFG with an internal skill filtering system which allows the party finder to straight up bar unprepared individuals from joining content.

    This cuts out so much unnecessary frustration and arguing regarding a player which goes in totally unprepared and causes their group distress by simply not allowing to join in the first place.

    Elitist? Maybe. But it is also necessary to ensure the party is up to stuff for clearing content.
    (And besides, what Elitist anymore? I see this term being thrown about so much to the point that I have seen individuals who have every right wanting someone to pull their weight is being called an Elitist.)

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    For what it's worth, I do think people should respect each others' LFG posts. If someone asks for specific amount of kp, bring the kp or do not join.

    or join and ask nicely if its ok that you have 13kp (or any other fictional number) less than required. most commanders won't make a fuss of it.
    just dont fake kp or join without pinging anything hoping nobody will notice...

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    (...) Anet themselves must introduce settings inside LFG with an internal skill filtering system which allows the party finder to straight up bar unprepared individuals from joining content. (...)

    And its not even like ANet doesnt want such systems in the game at all or doesnt know how to do it. This is literally what the fractal lfg is built like.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

    Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

    Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

    Errr... excuse me?!

    What I was saying was that you don't have to be a hardcore raider to be a good player and to excel at strike missions. Ergo, saying that every player who does not meet the LI/KP requirements is a beginner and therefore should only join "learning groups" is utter, arrogant nonsense.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

    LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.
    Who would have thought that

    So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

    LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.
    Who would have thought that

    So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

    Honestly this post is so full of logical fallacies it made me chuckle. Congrats. :)

    The reason why someone plays a piece of content is a mix of past enjoyment (experience the player had with the content), present enjoyement ( gameplay/community), future enjoyment (the rewards/ community/satisfaction of completion).

    Which factor is most important at a specific moment is extremely variable, so any claim to boil down the reason why someone plays to 1 thing will be extremely misguided.

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

    Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

    Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

    Errr... excuse me?!

    What I was saying was that you don't have to be a hardcore raider to be a good player and to excel at strike missions. Ergo, saying that every player who does not meet the LI/KP requirements is a beginner and therefore should only join "learning groups" is utter, arrogant nonsense.

    no no i didnt said ppl with less li should join training groups. I said raiders go for the loot. Non raiders go for learning them. If someone has less kp they can make their own groups with very low li or kp req so they can find groups faster
    Remember most commanders have arcdps. U can join a 100-250LI and ask them if they can give u a chance to prove you are good as a dps (or tell them you will do your role decently if u are healer/booner) and most commanders are kind enough to give u a chance or if they didnt...well u can join another group and ask the same. If u are a decent player or u think you are just make your own groups and ask for low li or ask a commander if they can let u in their squad.
    Btw raiders themselves spend hours and weeks to gain those LIs they have rn.
    Btw there is alot of groups everywhere for joining. Both with li req and without li req
    Even wen i didnt had LIs i could find group ezily. And if u want you can always go raiding and get LIs ezily. 16 bosses are there and they are very very ez

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

    Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

    Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

    Errr... excuse me?!

    What I was saying was that you don't have to be a hardcore raider to be a good player and to excel at strike missions. Ergo, saying that every player who does not meet the LI/KP requirements is a beginner and therefore should only join "learning groups" is utter, arrogant nonsense.

    no no i didnt said ppl with less li should join training groups. I said raiders go for the loot. Non raiders go for learning them. If someone has less kp they can make their own groups with very low li or kp req so they can find groups faster
    Remember most commanders have arcdps. U can join a 100-250LI and ask them if they can give u a chance to prove you are good as a dps (or tell them you will do your role decently if u are healer/booner) and most commanders are kind enough to give u a chance or if they didnt...well u can join another group and ask the same. If u are a decent player or u think you are just make your own groups and ask for low li or ask a commander if they can let u in their squad.
    Btw raiders themselves spend hours and weeks to gain those LIs they have rn.
    Btw there is alot of groups everywhere for joining. Both with li req and without li req
    Even wen i didnt had LIs i could find group ezily. And if u want you can always go raiding and get LIs ezily. 16 bosses are there and they are very very ez

    False. Not all raiders go for the loot.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.

    This is poor logic.
    Are fractals a failure because they hard bake in an experience check via AR?

    Just because Strikes are on farm and the farmers expect certain things from their groups does not say anything about the actual content or the way the majority of the population is using it.
    And from my experience (200+ strikes running Open Pugs) and looking at the numbers in Arc a very wide range of skill levels are represented by the players are joining my groups.

    Your statement is no different than calling the most successful map in the game a failure because LFGs expect a player to be experienced enough know what RIBA means.

    Fractals are exactly how raids and strike missions should function. You have easier difficulty lower tier versions of the exact same content you have to do before stepping into the higher. Needing ascended and 150 AR to even do T4's proves you are ready and people don't have to LI/KP lock T4', the game auto does it for you.

    The fact you can literally buy the game, boost an 80, then join someone's raid is why there is so much gate keeping in raids. The game needs it's own gate keeping function like fractals to keep completely new players out. A brand new boosted 80 player should NOT be able to freely join any raid or strike mission.

    Basically, raids and strike missions need a progressive tier system AND an in game hard gear check you need to first bypass in order to even be able to do the content. Also, add an inspect function so you can see peoples gear and builds or something.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

    LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.
    Who would have thought that

    So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

    Honestly this post is so full of logical fallacies it made me chuckle. Congrats. :)

    The reason why someone plays a piece of content is a mix of past enjoyment (experience the player had with the content), present enjoyement ( gameplay/community), future enjoyment (the rewards/ community/satisfaction of completion).

    Which factor is most important at a specific moment is extremely variable, so any claim to boil down the reason why someone plays to 1 thing will be extremely misguided.

    You can claim that but every time someone talks about raiding, every raider on one forum or another come to talk about the rewards and how they should get more and/or better. So, how could i know anything different? It's what you all have shown me, the only interest in raids is the stuff. Maybe next time talk about ANYTHING other than rewards, prove me wrong.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    Also, did some threads get merged or something? And why?

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

    Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

    Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

    Errr... excuse me?!

    What I was saying was that you don't have to be a hardcore raider to be a good player and to excel at strike missions. Ergo, saying that every player who does not meet the LI/KP requirements is a beginner and therefore should only join "learning groups" is utter, arrogant nonsense.

    no no i didnt said ppl with less li should join training groups. I said raiders go for the loot. Non raiders go for learning them. If someone has less kp they can make their own groups with very low li or kp req so they can find groups faster
    Remember most commanders have arcdps. U can join a 100-250LI and ask them if they can give u a chance to prove you are good as a dps (or tell them you will do your role decently if u are healer/booner) and most commanders are kind enough to give u a chance or if they didnt...well u can join another group and ask the same. If u are a decent player or u think you are just make your own groups and ask for low li or ask a commander if they can let u in their squad.
    Btw raiders themselves spend hours and weeks to gain those LIs they have rn.
    Btw there is alot of groups everywhere for joining. Both with li req and without li req
    Even wen i didnt had LIs i could find group ezily. And if u want you can always go raiding and get LIs ezily. 16 bosses are there and they are very very ez

    False. Not all raiders go for the loot.

    What if i say "most"? Btw there is no actual challenge there why should u go there as a raider then?
    Maybe to help some non raider friends? Or maybe for achives or the skins of the runic set or the cape

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    Also, did some threads get merged or something? And why?

    Do we really need all these threads that add nothing new to discussion with some posters that don't even spend 5 more seconds to work on their grammar?

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    The fact you can literally buy the game, boost an 80, then join someone's raid is why there is so much gate keeping in raids. The game needs it's own gate keeping function like fractals to keep completely new players out. A brand new boosted 80 player should NOT be able to freely join any raid or strike mission.

    Why not?
    Those who want to take the time and effort to hard carry and educate less experienced players are free to do so. Those who wish to set a barrier for entry into the content are also free to do so.
    One of the biggest problems MMOs face is simply allowing people to play with each other. People get their friends into the game and they can't immediately get their buds in on what they are currently enjoying. Strike missions and a few of the raids are not so hard that players need to be forced to go through a leveling experience for weeks just to hang out with their pals.
    I decide I want to hard carry some pepegas through Shiverpeaks Pass, I can. You decide you only want people with experience, you can set a requirement on your LFG.
    If you are looking for a meritocracy you are playing the wrong game.

    Basically, raids and strike missions need a progressive tier system AND an in game hard gear check you need to first bypass in order to even be able to do the content.

    No, Strike missions do not.
    The first three strikes can be completed by the most scuffed group, running kitten builds and terrible gear just like t1 fractals. WoJ and Cold War also require only a modicum of smart play (and acceptable damage in WoJ's case) to overcome. You can ego massage all you want about how gatekeeping is needed, but it flies in the face of objective observable reality.
    There's no gate to keep on Strikes.
    The only barriers are being set by individual squads in order to play with the people they want to.... nothing wrong with that.
    The only hard lock is a player's willingness to jump into the content...as it should be.

    Also, add an inspect function so you can see peoples gear and builds or something.

    This I agree would be a useful addition to the game. Every MMO on this game's level has a similar feature.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    "Why not"? because that's literally why everyone gate keeps everything? Because a fresh boosted char can apply to a group in their soldier power vit stam exotics and you'll never know? I don't know how else to explain it.

    There's nothing stopping you from helping your friends go through the lesser tiers and gear up. You can still play with them, you're just choosing NOT to.

    You can't just skip to the final boss in a game, you have to slowly work through the game and learn how to play it before you fight the final boss. Boosting then applying for raids is essentially entering a cheat code and trying to fight the final boss in a game naked with no idea how the game works.

    There's such a thing as TOO accessible, and raids and strike missions 100% are. Notice how t4 fractals aren't heavily gate kept by the player base? The game does it for them, that's EXACTLY what raids and fractlals need.

  • DKRathalos.9625DKRathalos.9625 Member ✭✭✭

    I might be too late but what is LI? like what is the abbreviation?

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    "Why not"? because that's literally why everyone gate keeps everything? Because a fresh boosted char can apply to a group in their soldier power vit stam exotics and you'll never know? I don't know how else to explain it.

    There's nothing stopping you from helping your friends go through the lesser tiers and gear up. You can still play with them, you're just choosing NOT to.

    You can't just skip to the final boss in a game, you have to slowly work through the game and learn how to play it before you fight the final boss. Boosting then applying for raids is essentially entering a cheat code and trying to fight the final boss in a game naked with no idea how the game works.

    There's such a thing as TOO accessible, and raids and strike missions 100% are. Notice how t4 fractals aren't heavily gate kept by the player base? The game does it for them, that's EXACTLY what raids and fractlals need.

    I don't think fractals are as good an example as you think they are.

    There's not a whole lot stopping people from getting to ascended and just buying the AR.

    Secondly tiers don't really work. The idea is there but in practice it's not that great. When a fractal is too hard at T4 you're supposed to move down until you get it..but this doesn't happen. You get the same problems around grouping and complaints about difficulty when the answer is right there. People ignore it because they want the rewards and feel entitled to them. There is a reason pretty much all tiers besides T4 are pretty much dead.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    You cannot get 150 AR without infusing your rings which requires doing the fractals, unless you spend thousands of gold on insane infusions. Infusions also cost gold.

    Also having ascended gear takes a while(lots of gold, dailies, farming, etc) so by then you at least have some basic understanding of the game, generally. Unlike literally installing the game, using your 80 boost, then pressing LFG and trying to join someone's raid in your soldier exotics with no idea what you're doing.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Find it weird as well. It was the same back during dungeon days.

    Yes. The notable difference was that the groups without requirements (or with only basic ones, like "level 80 casual run") were as likely to succeed as those with high reqs. The only difference was in completion time. So, if someone didn't like the requirements, starting a "casual run" group was indeed a solution - and depending on the dungeon and path, quite often the time you lost running a past was balanced by the simple expedient of the no req groups filling way, way faster. So, while there were some complains about "elitism" in some dungeon groups, if someone didn't like that, it was extremely easy to completely ignore.

    Having joined numerous both KP and all welcome/exp groups, that's exactly how it is with Strikes now.
    The main differences in my experience (generalised) is that a 250LI group has the roles joined that are asked for in LFG and everybody understands their role, generally sticks together for the whole thing and clears the Strikes in 15-20 minutes.
    While a non LI group constantly has people join over an over who are not on the right profession for the roles described on LFG, refuse any and all communication, even if prompted in a friendly manner over and over and don't swap, people are leaving left and right throughout the run, especially as soon as anything goes wrong and people try to communicate better strategies and what to do different (leading to the same spiel on LFG over and over again), and they often can take around 1 hour for a clear.

    Both gated and non gated groups clearly can clear the content fairly easily, it's just that gated groups do so vastly more efficiently and (imo) more fun, consisting of people who are on the same page on what to do and how much they value their time and that of the others in the group.
    If I have the time and patience I gladly join more "beginner" groups, but especially the unwillingness to communicate and their disposition to just abandon the group as soon as they face adversity like a quick wipe (something rarely if ever seen in LI groups) leading the group back to LFG again and again, spending more time waiting than playing the game, are the main factors driving me towards joining LI gated groups if they happen to be up when I check.

    Strikes just aren't challenging and therefor fun enough to me to be regularly spending that much time in them. Often I just want to join a group and quickly knock them done, that's what LI gated groups are for.

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

    LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.
    Who would have thought that

    So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

    Honestly this post is so full of logical fallacies it made me chuckle. Congrats. :)

    The reason why someone plays a piece of content is a mix of past enjoyment (experience the player had with the content), present enjoyement ( gameplay/community), future enjoyment (the rewards/ community/satisfaction of completion).

    Which factor is most important at a specific moment is extremely variable, so any claim to boil down the reason why someone plays to 1 thing will be extremely misguided.

    You can claim that but every time someone talks about raiding, every raider on one forum or another come to talk about the rewards and how they should get more and/or better. So, how could i know anything different? It's what you all have shown me, the only interest in raids is the stuff. Maybe next time talk about ANYTHING other than rewards, prove me wrong.

    What rewards? I don't think I know any Raider who primarily plays for the rewards, not that most of them don't already have everything and are just piling up tens of thousands of essentially useless currencies up at this point, as rewards haven't been updated in years.
    The 2 gold per boss are a nice bonus to playing the content mainly just because it's fun, but I doubt anyone plays for that, considering you can make about 200-300% more gold per hour running around auto attacking in OW maps like the new Drizzlewood, and Raids are once per week, while those sources are unlimited.

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:
    I might be too late but what is LI? like what is the abbreviation?

    LI stands for Legendary Insight, which along with things like Legendary Divinations and Cosmic Essences has kind of become an umbrella term for and along with KP, meaning Kill Proofs, aka a unique currency you receive for beating difficult content (Raid Bosses, Fractal CM), which can then be used as proof of your capability to tackle endgame content.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    Many experienced raiders do a lot to bring new players to raids. There are dedicated guilds for raid trainings and training discords.
    Other guilds (like Snow Crows) put a lot of work into creating the best builds (includinig guides how to play them).
    An EU raid training guild (RTI) made lots of raidinig PoV videos:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/gbx4ae/my_guild_prepared_a_massive_list_of_raiding_pov/.

    When I started raiding, there were no guides, no experienced leaders and hardly anyone had ascended equipment. It took us weeks to get Vale Guardian down. Nowadays in a wing 1 training VG should be dead and Gorseval as well. A wing 4 training often ends with bosses 1-3 killed.

    What else do people want? You can get everything very fast. You just have to join a guild or discord server.

    If that is still too much: open lfg, join a strike (Grothmar, Kodan, Fraenir) without requirements, ca. 5 min later you have your kill.

    PS: Sorry if my text sounds a bit harsh. I'm just annoyed that some people call everyone who raids toxic in general, while many raiders put a lot of work into helping newbies to get started.

    Those training guilds are literally why the raiding player base is so small and constantly shrinking, by the way. Stop bringing it up.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/dol3ga/is_raiding_dead_na_server/

    I'll take a hit. This is why raiding player base is so small on NA. Respectable raiders ran from NA servers to EU where players are not as "laid back" to put it lightly and can actually enjoy the content :)
    I've raided on both and I'm simply sorry for NA players who want to raid regularly.
    And literally spitting in the face of brigade of people who help create raid training communities and ignoring most prominent reasons on why raiding scene is how it is. Your Shiyo <3

    I've been in training guilds discords, they make raiding not fun and a job and completely ruin the experience. They have many, many, MANY ranks/tiers for players and give them "points" depending on how "well" they did on runs. You also had to do "well"(x percentile dps, don't fail mechanics x amount of times) on lower tier bosses to be "allowed" in higher tier bosses. It's incredibly insulting to the players intelligence. It was like army training in a video game - which is flat out not fun.

    If I wanted to work a job, I'd go work a real one and get paid for it, not play a video game.

    I can't believe people STILL, to this day, will try to tell me training guilds are good for this game.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    Many experienced raiders do a lot to bring new players to raids. There are dedicated guilds for raid trainings and training discords.
    Other guilds (like Snow Crows) put a lot of work into creating the best builds (includinig guides how to play them).
    An EU raid training guild (RTI) made lots of raidinig PoV videos:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/gbx4ae/my_guild_prepared_a_massive_list_of_raiding_pov/.

    When I started raiding, there were no guides, no experienced leaders and hardly anyone had ascended equipment. It took us weeks to get Vale Guardian down. Nowadays in a wing 1 training VG should be dead and Gorseval as well. A wing 4 training often ends with bosses 1-3 killed.

    What else do people want? You can get everything very fast. You just have to join a guild or discord server.

    If that is still too much: open lfg, join a strike (Grothmar, Kodan, Fraenir) without requirements, ca. 5 min later you have your kill.

    PS: Sorry if my text sounds a bit harsh. I'm just annoyed that some people call everyone who raids toxic in general, while many raiders put a lot of work into helping newbies to get started.

    Those training guilds are literally why the raiding player base is so small and constantly shrinking, by the way. Stop bringing it up.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/dol3ga/is_raiding_dead_na_server/

    I'll take a hit. This is why raiding player base is so small on NA. Respectable raiders ran from NA servers to EU where players are not as "laid back" to put it lightly and can actually enjoy the content :)
    I've raided on both and I'm simply sorry for NA players who want to raid regularly.
    And literally spitting in the face of brigade of people who help create raid training communities and ignoring most prominent reasons on why raiding scene is how it is. Your Shiyo <3

    I've been in training guilds discords, they make raiding not fun and a job and completely ruin the experience. They have many, many, MANY ranks/tiers for players and give them "points" depending on how "well" they did on runs. You also had to do "well"(x percentile dps, don't fail mechanics x amount of times) on lower tier bosses to be "allowed" in higher tier bosses. It's incredibly insulting to the players intelligence. It was like army training in a video game - which is flat out not fun.

    If I wanted to work a job, I'd go work a real one and get paid for it, not play a video game.

    I can't believe people STILL, to this day, will try to tell me training guilds are good for this game.

    I have seen plenty of good people who weren't part of any of such communities try to put together casual Raid trainings over the years (and also volunteered to fill in for some at the beginning), and generally from what I saw it was just weeks and weeks of work in organising and advertising both in and outside of the game, trying to get people together (because as much as people like to complain about Raids being gated by LI, if you then actually offer them an opportunity in, the tone quite quickly shifts to excuses), and then either those attempts died eventually due to not being able to find people, or eventually when 10 people finally were found and a date was set to begin, half the people who commited just wouldn't show up, wasting everyone's time.
    The rare cases I've seen of those trainings successfully getting 10 people into a Raid, instead of being a fun time learning together, usually then consisted of ~7-9 players completely silent - not communicating on what they are struggling with or unclear about, with the Raid leader awkwardly essentially talking to a wall alone, trying to guess what people are having issues with, just for half the people to disappear after the one training again.

    So honestly, while I've never seen myself what you are describing, I can see why Training communities would try to "gamefy" the training process in order to get people engaged (and improving).
    It wouldn't be for me either, but prospecting Raiders also need to realise that you are not going to get anything out of Raids if you are not willing to put anything in.

    As for giving people points for not failing mechanics being insulting to people's intelligence.. well, I have seen people join Raids every single week for 6+ months, failing the same mechanics again and again every single week while being completely adverse to any feedback or improvement, which quite frankly is insulting to everybody else trying to their best to progress as well.

    There isn't really a right way to do these trainings, it's imo mostly just about finding a group with the people, skill levels, learning speed and approach most similar to your tastes, which needlessly to say isn't always easy.
    But I won't blame any of those communities for the approach you described to keep their own sanity intact.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Find it weird as well. It was the same back during dungeon days.

    Yes. The notable difference was that the groups without requirements (or with only basic ones, like "level 80 casual run") were as likely to succeed as those with high reqs. The only difference was in completion time. So, if someone didn't like the requirements, starting a "casual run" group was indeed a solution - and depending on the dungeon and path, quite often the time you lost running a past was balanced by the simple expedient of the no req groups filling way, way faster. So, while there were some complains about "elitism" in some dungeon groups, if someone didn't like that, it was extremely easy to completely ignore.

    Having joined numerous both KP and all welcome/exp groups, that's exactly how it is with Strikes now.
    The main differences in my experience (generalised) is that a 250LI group has the roles joined that are asked for in LFG and everybody understands their role, generally sticks together for the whole thing and clears the Strikes in 15-20 minutes.
    While a non LI group constantly has people join over an over who are not on the right profession for the roles described on LFG, refuse any and all communication, even if prompted in a friendly manner over and over and don't swap, people are leaving left and right throughout the run, especially as soon as anything goes wrong and people try to communicate better strategies and what to do different (leading to the same spiel on LFG over and over again), and they often can take around 1 hour for a clear.

    Both gated and non gated groups clearly can clear the content fairly easily, it's just that gated groups do so vastly more efficiently and (imo) more fun, consisting of people who are on the same page on what to do and how much they value their time and that of the others in the group.
    If I have the time and patience I gladly join more "beginner" groups, but especially the unwillingness to communicate and their disposition to just abandon the group as soon as they face adversity like a quick wipe (something rarely if ever seen in LI groups) leading the group back to LFG again and again, spending more time waiting than playing the game, are the main factors driving me towards joining LI gated groups if they happen to be up when I check.

    Strikes just aren't challenging and therefor fun enough to me to be regularly spending that much time in them. Often I just want to join a group and quickly knock them done, that's what LI gated groups are for.

    First, if "people are leaving left and right as soon as anything goes wrong", then it's already not the old casual run dungeon level. Second, the non-li groups in your example are anything but casual already. Most of the players LI requirements were meant to filter out simply aren't even queuing anymore. If they haven't given up already, you would not take a hour for a full run. You would not be able to do Whisper and Boneskinner at all. A group of casual players on the old "casual dungeon" level would simply not be able to pass those two bosses.

    Notice, by the way, that a "casual run" does imply that you can't count on any specific role (i.e. healer) being present beyond the usual dps (of the bearbow tier). Anything better would be extra, but by no means guaranteed. A group like that would still be able to clear any dungeon, but asking them to clear Whisper or Boneskinner would be a joke (and not very good one). The difficulty levels are so far from each other there's no point to even compare them - they are in completely different categories.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Find it weird as well. It was the same back during dungeon days.

    Yes. The notable difference was that the groups without requirements (or with only basic ones, like "level 80 casual run") were as likely to succeed as those with high reqs. The only difference was in completion time. So, if someone didn't like the requirements, starting a "casual run" group was indeed a solution - and depending on the dungeon and path, quite often the time you lost running a past was balanced by the simple expedient of the no req groups filling way, way faster. So, while there were some complains about "elitism" in some dungeon groups, if someone didn't like that, it was extremely easy to completely ignore.

    Having joined numerous both KP and all welcome/exp groups, that's exactly how it is with Strikes now.
    The main differences in my experience (generalised) is that a 250LI group has the roles joined that are asked for in LFG and everybody understands their role, generally sticks together for the whole thing and clears the Strikes in 15-20 minutes.
    While a non LI group constantly has people join over an over who are not on the right profession for the roles described on LFG, refuse any and all communication, even if prompted in a friendly manner over and over and don't swap, people are leaving left and right throughout the run, especially as soon as anything goes wrong and people try to communicate better strategies and what to do different (leading to the same spiel on LFG over and over again), and they often can take around 1 hour for a clear.

    Both gated and non gated groups clearly can clear the content fairly easily, it's just that gated groups do so vastly more efficiently and (imo) more fun, consisting of people who are on the same page on what to do and how much they value their time and that of the others in the group.
    If I have the time and patience I gladly join more "beginner" groups, but especially the unwillingness to communicate and their disposition to just abandon the group as soon as they face adversity like a quick wipe (something rarely if ever seen in LI groups) leading the group back to LFG again and again, spending more time waiting than playing the game, are the main factors driving me towards joining LI gated groups if they happen to be up when I check.

    Strikes just aren't challenging and therefor fun enough to me to be regularly spending that much time in them. Often I just want to join a group and quickly knock them done, that's what LI gated groups are for.

    First, if "people are leaving left and right as soon as anything goes wrong", then it's already not the old casual run dungeon level. Second, the non-li groups in your example are anything but casual already. Most of the players LI requirements were meant to filter out simply aren't even queuing anymore. If they haven't given up already, you would not take a hour for a full run. You would not be able to do Whisper and Boneskinner at all. A group of casual players on the old "casual dungeon" level would simply not be able to pass those two bosses.

    Notice, by the way, that a "casual run" does imply that you can't count on any specific role (i.e. healer) being present beyond the usual dps (of the bearbow tier). Anything better would be extra, but by no means guaranteed. A group like that would still be able to clear any dungeon, but asking them to clear Whisper or Boneskinner would be a joke (and not very good one). The difficulty levels are so far from each other there's no point to even compare them - they are in completely different categories.

    A group of similar skill level back then with the player powerlevel as it was then was just as unable to complete many dungeons as they are now with some Strikes.
    It's just easy to forget how tough dungeons were back then for many, considering most bosses in there are nuked in under 10 seconds these days after all the power creep (and specific strategies).

    But just like Boneskinner may wipe very inept players now in Strikes, so did bosses like Lupi in dungeons back then.

    And from my experience having played at the "good old dungeons days" as well, everybody being able to join groups on whatever and complete the content was less true for dungeons back then, as it is for Strikes now.

    That aside, I'm not sure of the point of the comparison, as Strikes are by design intended to be increasingly closer to Raids, focusing on complex boss mechanics, while dungeons where always mostly about area traversal/skips (and being much more forgiving in terms of "grave rushing").
    It's very different content, intended to be on another difficulty level by design, and bosses like WoJ and Bone are intended to be worked up to.

    As for requiring specific roles, that's a concept that simply didn't really exist back when dungeons were relevant content, as opposed to now, were Strikes specifically are intended to prepare players for those 10 man Raid environments where such things are crucial.
    If Strikes were easily beatable without utilising any Raid like Strategies (aka just pick 10 Bearbow rangers and spam all skills on cooldown), that's when they would have failed their role as introductory content (see Icebrood Construct). Not on merit of some people failing at first - wiping and learning from wipes to improve is an integral part of Raids, and what makes them rewarding to then finally overcome.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:
    A group of similar skill level back then with the player powerlevel as it was then was just as unable to complete many dungeons as they are now with some Strikes.
    It's just easy to forget how tough dungeons were back then for many, considering most bosses in there are nuked in under 10 seconds these days after all the power creep (and specific strategies).

    As someone that was doing Arah and Aetherpath in a group of casuals with dps ranging from ~6k to below 2k (no, that below 2k was not a support or heal, that was preHoT, noone i knew was even thinking about those things then, we just had very bad builds all around, which we learned only after dps meters became a thing) with no problem whatsoever (even if the runs could take a while), i happen to strongly disagree. Yes, with proper builds they are way easier now than they were then, but still even with the bad builds they were far, far easier than the mid to hard strikes are now with proper ones.

    But just like Boneskinner may wipe very inept players now in Strikes, so did bosses like Lupi in dungeons back then.

    Lupi was actually laughably easy as long as you didn't try to melee him. "run like chickens all around" type of strategy worked wonders for him. And even after someone died they could be ressed easily. In fact, the arena was big enough that it was even possible to get out of combat to heal up, and ressing someone wasn't a problem either. It was only trying to do the "pro" strats that resulted in wipes.

    And from my experience having played at the "good old dungeons days" as well, everybody being able to join groups on whatever and complete the content was less true for dungeons back then, as it is for Strikes now.

    I hated the speed clear groups with a passion, so i was always making the "all welcome" groups. Never had any serious problem with player quality (if anything, it was the better players that were more problematic, because they tried to speedrun/use the strats that depended on high dps, which didn't really work if the other 4 players were doing something else). And i wasn't a very experienced player then either (hint: i was the one maining a sub 2k bunker guard from the aetherpath example above).

    That aside, I'm not sure of the point of the comparison, as Strikes are by design intended to be increasingly closer to Raids, focusing on complex boss mechanics, while dungeons where always mostly about area traversal/skips (and being much more forgiving in terms of "grave rushing").
    It's very different content, intended to be on another difficulty level by design, and bosses like WoJ and Bone are intended to be worked up to.

    I wasn't the one that started with the comparison. @Eramonster.2718 did. If you haven't noticed, i even said the very thing in my previous post: "The difficulty levels are so far from each other there's no point to even compare them - they are in completely different categories."

    My very point was that it isn't anything like back in the dungeon days, and that we can't really compare those.

    As for requiring specific roles, that's a concept that simply didn't really exist back when dungeons were relevant content, as opposed to now, were Strikes specifically are intended to prepare players for those 10 man Raid environments where such things are crucial.
    If Strikes were easily beatable without utilising any Raid like Strategies (aka just pick 10 Bearbow rangers and spam all skills on cooldown), that's when they would have failed their role as introductory content (see Icebrood Construct). Not on merit of some people failing at first - wiping and learning from wipes to improve is an integral part of Raids, and what makes them rewarding to then finally overcome.

    So? Increase of difficulty being intentional and justified by design goals does not change the fact that it is an increase in difficulty.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    What rewards? I don't think I know any Raider who primarily plays for the rewards, not that most of them don't already have everything and are just piling up tens of thousands of essentially useless currencies up at this point, as rewards haven't been updated in years.
    The 2 gold per boss are a nice bonus to playing the content mainly just because it's fun, but I doubt anyone plays for that, considering you can make about 200-300% more gold per hour running around auto attacking in OW maps like the new Drizzlewood, and Raids are once per week, while those sources are unlimited.

    I'm sure gold is the only thing you can get from them. It's not so easy to fill it with better stuff because GW2 doesn't have the gear treadmill, but i'm sure it's filled with stuff you can't get anywhere else. Besides, the fun might only come after you know everything, although i don't know what is fun in doing the same dance over and over. I mean sure, they all SAY they do it for fun but i have not seen anything to support that. More like everyone gets closer to an aneurysm with all the raging about the "filthy casuals". I wonder what kind of raging happens IN the raids after a failed attempt? You could make a video about it, now that would be funny.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    What rewards? I don't think I know any Raider who primarily plays for the rewards, not that most of them don't already have everything and are just piling up tens of thousands of essentially useless currencies up at this point, as rewards haven't been updated in years.
    The 2 gold per boss are a nice bonus to playing the content mainly just because it's fun, but I doubt anyone plays for that, considering you can make about 200-300% more gold per hour running around auto attacking in OW maps like the new Drizzlewood, and Raids are once per week, while those sources are unlimited.

    I'm sure gold is the only thing you can get from them. It's not so easy to fill it with better stuff because GW2 doesn't have the gear treadmill, but i'm sure it's filled with stuff you can't get anywhere else. Besides, the fun might only come after you know everything, although i don't know what is fun in doing the same dance over and over. I mean sure, they all SAY they do it for fun but i have not seen anything to support that. More like everyone gets closer to an aneurysm with all the raging about the "filthy casuals". I wonder what kind of raging happens IN the raids after a failed attempt? You could make a video about it, now that would be funny.

    The rewarding part for me about raiding is coming together with a group/static of year long ig friends (whom I met through Raiding) in an environment where our individual contribution matters and we can have moments of struggle and achievement together while just overall having a good time. It's about quality of gameplay and community.

    You clearly have a very negative and pug centric impression/imagination of Raids, which is unfortunate. But I can assure you that after years of Raiding, with multiple legendary armors and banks tabs full of hundreds of boxes of acended gear that will never see use, the rewards are very much so not the driving force, at least not for veterans. Would I like to see updated rewards for Raids? I mean, sure - why not, but it's really not the focus or why I'm Raiding. I'd rather just have more content to play, rewards or not.
    Also judging from what I've seen both on the forums and ingame, there is a lot more toxicity and rage at "toxic elitists" than hardcore players even thinking about "filthy casuals", let alone rage. It's really more pity and jokes than aneurysms.

    Also, if you want to be negative I'm pretty sure you can diminish any game/gamemode/even sport to "just doing the same dance over and over". That's fairly reductive to what Raids actually are (with different comps, strategies, role swapping, different things going wrong and having to be covered on the spot, the social element, etc.) and imo applies much more so to OW Farms and Metas, where it's just a giant zerg auto attacking for some loot, with half of them upscaling the fights more than they are contributing in an ever same lagg fest in which any one person's presence doesn't matter one bit to the outcome.

    If I was after loot, that's what I would be playing. But it's unfortunately boring to me.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Lupi was actually laughably easy as long as you didn't try to melee him. "run like chickens all around" type of strategy worked wonders for him. And even after someone died they could be ressed easily. In fact, the arena was big enough that it was even possible to get out of combat to heal up, and ressing someone wasn't a problem either. It was only trying to do the "pro" strats that resulted in wipes.

    Sounds like you didn't get a real taste of Lupi, as it was originally intended, before it got nerfed to below 40% of his original danger.
    A nerf that happened within two or three months after the release.
    Or maybe you just always had luck with people running full Soldier gear (or other, less common Toughness gear) in your party tanking Lupi for you.
    Possibly even both.

    That aside, during its prime time, Lupi was the most difficult fight in the game.

    It's sad, really. Back then they nerfed Lupi to make Arah more accessible for players of different skill levels, but now they refuse to make raids more accessible.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

    LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.
    Who would have thought that

    So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

    Honestly this post is so full of logical fallacies it made me chuckle. Congrats. :)

    The reason why someone plays a piece of content is a mix of past enjoyment (experience the player had with the content), present enjoyement ( gameplay/community), future enjoyment (the rewards/ community/satisfaction of completion).

    Which factor is most important at a specific moment is extremely variable, so any claim to boil down the reason why someone plays to 1 thing will be extremely misguided.

    You can claim that but every time someone talks about raiding, every raider on one forum or another come to talk about the rewards and how they should get more and/or better. So, how could i know anything different? It's what you all have shown me, the only interest in raids is the stuff. Maybe next time talk about ANYTHING other than rewards, prove me wrong.

    Before reading further please look up what confirmation bias and selection bias is.

    In general people come to the forum to complain. So what do people complain about in regards to raids.

    Past experiences ( this are the complains of toxicity/having had a bad experience/trouble finding people)

    Present experiences (To difficult, trouble finding people)

    Future experiences( Bad rewards/ Unsatisfied with the content)

    No riddle me this which of those would people who like the difficulty and the community complain about. It's either rewards or unsatisfied with the content (to little , maybe to easy). And surprise we see all these complaints coming from people who raid regularly.

    In conclusion, id would be great if you could actually look at why you think these things and realize what biases come to play here.
    ON top of that, most of the times i've seen rewards been brought up it was in regards to people suggesting it to increase the playerbase.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    You can claim that but every time someone talks about raiding, every raider on one forum or another come to talk about the rewards and how they should get more and/or better. So, how could i know anything different? It's what you all have shown me, the only interest in raids is the stuff. Maybe next time talk about ANYTHING other than rewards, prove me wrong.

    I have all 3 legy armors, 9 characters geared in full ascended, 3 bank slots full of unused ascended chests, and several thousand liquid gold.
    do you really think i still play raids for the rewards???

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    You can claim that but every time someone talks about raiding, every raider on one forum or another come to talk about the rewards and how they should get more and/or better. So, how could i know anything different? It's what you all have shown me, the only interest in raids is the stuff. Maybe next time talk about ANYTHING other than rewards, prove me wrong.

    I have all 3 legy armors, 9 characters geared in full ascended, 3 bank slots full of unused ascended chests, and several thousand liquid gold.
    do you really think i still play raids for the rewards???

    Ppl who get all 3 leggy sets and have all 9 characters geared up with best equipment are so low and play for the little challenges or just wanna have fun. Theres no point in doing raids after u get envoys herald title other than wanting to have fun
    Most ppl do it for the ascended and exlusive stuff that are only in raids (1 pve chair/special skins/ez ascended items/guild decos/legendary armor/infusions). Btw some ppl like me do the raids for the gold bec i just dont want to go farming on farm maps bec my pc cant handle being around 30+ players and my game crashes
    But in raids i get alot of gold and items each week

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

    LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.
    Who would have thought that

    So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

    Honestly this post is so full of logical fallacies it made me chuckle. Congrats. :)

    The reason why someone plays a piece of content is a mix of past enjoyment (experience the player had with the content), present enjoyement ( gameplay/community), future enjoyment (the rewards/ community/satisfaction of completion).

    Which factor is most important at a specific moment is extremely variable, so any claim to boil down the reason why someone plays to 1 thing will be extremely misguided.

    You can claim that but every time someone talks about raiding, every raider on one forum or another come to talk about the rewards and how they should get more and/or better. So, how could i know anything different? It's what you all have shown me, the only interest in raids is the stuff. Maybe next time talk about ANYTHING other than rewards, prove me wrong.

    Before reading further please look up what confirmation bias and selection bias is.

    In general people come to the forum to complain. So what do people complain about in regards to raids.

    Past experiences ( this are the complains of toxicity/having had a bad experience/trouble finding people)

    Present experiences (To difficult, trouble finding people)

    Future experiences( Bad rewards/ Unsatisfied with the content)

    No riddle me this which of those would people who like the difficulty and the community complain about. It's either rewards or unsatisfied with the content (to little , maybe to easy). And surprise we see all these complaints coming from people who raid regularly.

    In conclusion, id would be great if you could actually look at why you think these things and realize what biases come to play here.
    ON top of that, most of the times i've seen rewards been brought up it was in regards to people suggesting it to increase the playerbase.

    I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less. It's mostly in forums and such, that is why i asked you to prove me wrong. You won't but there is no harm in asking. It's obvious that SOMEONE may play raids because it's fun for them but those people are propably playing right now, not whining on the forums.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Lupi was actually laughably easy as long as you didn't try to melee him. "run like chickens all around" type of strategy worked wonders for him. And even after someone died they could be ressed easily. In fact, the arena was big enough that it was even possible to get out of combat to heal up, and ressing someone wasn't a problem either. It was only trying to do the "pro" strats that resulted in wipes.

    Sounds like you didn't get a real taste of Lupi, as it was originally intended, before it got nerfed to below 40% of his original danger.
    A nerf that happened within two or three months after the release.
    Or maybe you just always had luck with people running full Soldier gear (or other, less common Toughness gear) in your party tanking Lupi for you.
    Possibly even both.

    That aside, during its prime time, Lupi was the most difficult fight in the game.

    You mean the "prime time" that only very limited number of players ever seen? Remember, most players weren't even level 80 then. The dungeon prime time started only after that, way later.
    Trust me, if you now took a group of casual players freshly new to level 80, dressed them in level 60-70 random greens and yellows, and thrown them into shiverpeak strike, they would hopelessly wipe there as well.

    That saying, i actually did see pre-nerf lupi. Most of the wipes i saw were from people trying to melee stack him, which with moderate to low skill simply wasn't working - the Benny Hill strat however even then was highly succesful. That's because even then Lupi generally reacted to downing you not by finishing you off, but by switching to another target, which allowed you to heal back up (or if that didn;t work, just get ressed by someone else). As long as everyone was properly spread out, he just wasted a ton of time running around from person to person, while all the other people were ranging him and ressing downed/killed. I have even shown this to a few more pro friends of mine, and all of them were surprised at how effective that was. It's just that most pro players weren't using this approach, because it was slow. That's why you probably never even saw this.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • DKRathalos.9625DKRathalos.9625 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:
    I might be too late but what is LI? like what is the abbreviation?

    LI stands for Legendary Insight, which along with things like Legendary Divinations and Cosmic Essences has kind of become an umbrella term for and along with KP, meaning Kill Proofs, aka a unique currency you receive for beating difficult content (Raid Bosses, Fractal CM), which can then be used as proof of your capability to tackle endgame content.

    Waooo... Ok now that is not making any sense, I mean.... Strike was meant to be introduction to raid, why you need people to clear raid first before strike O_O

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:
    I might be too late but what is LI? like what is the abbreviation?

    LI stands for Legendary Insight, which along with things like Legendary Divinations and Cosmic Essences has kind of become an umbrella term for and along with KP, meaning Kill Proofs, aka a unique currency you receive for beating difficult content (Raid Bosses, Fractal CM), which can then be used as proof of your capability to tackle endgame content.

    Waooo... Ok now that is not making any sense, I mean.... Strike was meant to be introduction to raid, why you need people to clear raid first before strike O_O

    That's the point. You don't need LI to do strikes.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:
    I might be too late but what is LI? like what is the abbreviation?

    LI stands for Legendary Insight, which along with things like Legendary Divinations and Cosmic Essences has kind of become an umbrella term for and along with KP, meaning Kill Proofs, aka a unique currency you receive for beating difficult content (Raid Bosses, Fractal CM), which can then be used as proof of your capability to tackle endgame content.

    Waooo... Ok now that is not making any sense, I mean.... Strike was meant to be introduction to raid, why you need people to clear raid first before strike O_O

    That's the point. You don't need LI to do strikes.

    It's not raiders saying that you NEED LI to do strikes. We just want you to have LI for me to want to do strikes with you. Can strikes be completed without LI? Absolutely. Do I want to be in said group through that relative struggle? Heck no. There are plenty of no LI people that you can play with in your own group. You dont need people like me making groups for casuals where they're not going to be welcome anyway.

    Alternatively people in all welcome groups, would you find it toxic if I joined an all welcome group and declared " I'm going to match the dps of the lowest (non support) player in the party"

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:
    I might be too late but what is LI? like what is the abbreviation?

    LI stands for Legendary Insight, which along with things like Legendary Divinations and Cosmic Essences has kind of become an umbrella term for and along with KP, meaning Kill Proofs, aka a unique currency you receive for beating difficult content (Raid Bosses, Fractal CM), which can then be used as proof of your capability to tackle endgame content.

    Waooo... Ok now that is not making any sense, I mean.... Strike was meant to be introduction to raid, why you need people to clear raid first before strike O_O

    Because there is no LI equivalent in Strike Missions, or some other way to tell if a player has experience in the content or not. So naturally players are using proofs of experience from other content even if said content is supposed to be the next step. The ideal would've been the exact opposite, someone having experience in Strike Missions be allowed to enter Raids, that was the whole point, Strike Missions offering a path into raiding. But we got it backwards because there are no useful proofs in Strike Missions.

    It's the same as in the old era of using AP as a measure of experience to find dungeon groups, as if finishing dailies and general achievements proved you were experienced in Arah for example. The developers are simply repeating the same mistakes, it's been a few years, maybe they "forgot"?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

    I'm sure the content you play has no rewards at all and you play it simply because you find it fun and engaging.
    Let's see the type of content that the vast majority of the playerbase enjoy playing: Auric Basin Multiloot, Silverwastes RIBA, Istan Farm and the "next best farm spot" that gets full maps daily (before it's nerfed). I'm sure it's because that content is the best and most enjoyable/fun content in the game and rewards have nothing to do with it.

    Edit: check the number of players chopping wood at Malchor's Leap all day! That's some exciting content right there!

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Strikes have better loot and they are daily

    This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

    I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

    LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.
    Who would have thought that

    So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

    Honestly this post is so full of logical fallacies it made me chuckle. Congrats. :)

    The reason why someone plays a piece of content is a mix of past enjoyment (experience the player had with the content), present enjoyement ( gameplay/community), future enjoyment (the rewards/ community/satisfaction of completion).

    Which factor is most important at a specific moment is extremely variable, so any claim to boil down the reason why someone plays to 1 thing will be extremely misguided.

    You can claim that but every time someone talks about raiding, every raider on one forum or another come to talk about the rewards and how they should get more and/or better. So, how could i know anything different? It's what you all have shown me, the only interest in raids is the stuff. Maybe next time talk about ANYTHING other than rewards, prove me wrong.

    Before reading further please look up what confirmation bias and selection bias is.

    In general people come to the forum to complain. So what do people complain about in regards to raids.

    Past experiences ( this are the complains of toxicity/having had a bad experience/trouble finding people)

    Present experiences (To difficult, trouble finding people)

    Future experiences( Bad rewards/ Unsatisfied with the content)

    No riddle me this which of those would people who like the difficulty and the community complain about. It's either rewards or unsatisfied with the content (to little , maybe to easy). And surprise we see all these complaints coming from people who raid regularly.

    In conclusion, id would be great if you could actually look at why you think these things and realize what biases come to play here.
    ON top of that, most of the times i've seen rewards been brought up it was in regards to people suggesting it to increase the playerbase.

    I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less. It's mostly in forums and such, that is why i asked you to prove me wrong. You won't but there is no harm in asking. It's obvious that SOMEONE may play raids because it's fun for them but those people are propably playing right now, not whining on the forums.

    My point is that the forums are not a representative sample. And making any statements about why raiders raid in general by only using what you see on the forum will be enormously misguided at best.

    To give a real life comparison to how you sound. You sound like the people saying people shouldn't wear helmets because the people with helmets represented a greater percentage of headwounds in the hospital. Try to think about why this is the case, then you'll realize why you're wrong.

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    Seriously is it this hard for u ppl to go raiding and find a training squad to teach you how to kill a boss? And then with Your LIs go find a strike
    Strikes also have alot of non li req squads that u can join
    Even more than the ones with LI requirements
    Btw you most of u guys can start your own lfg and go do watever u want (ask for 250bananas)
    Btw u can also join a guild
    I started raiding with a guild
    Alot of ppl did

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:
    Seriously is it this hard for u ppl to go raiding and find a training squad to teach you how to kill a boss? And then with Your LIs go find a strike

    Apparently, yes. If you haven't noticed, that is even the primary reason behind why Strikes were even created. If raids were more popular, they would be the content to be developed, and Devs would not feel the need to create "steping stones" to them. They definitely did not intend for raids to be stepping stones to strikes.

    So, something obviously went wrong. That part at least seems undeniable to me, even if we all are not in agreement on the precise details of that "something".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less.

    So youre basically a parrot that doesnt even understand what it's saying. Great...
    What you're representing here are highly subjective and individual experiences/opinions and in no way reliable sources. You should use websites like gw2efficiency etc. to get a deeper understanding of wealth distribution across the gw2 community and that raiders have the tendency to be richer and thus are less reliant on rewards.
    (though they did get this rich by playing lucrative content of course^^)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less.

    So youre basically a parrot that doesnt even understand what it's saying. Great...
    What you're representing here are highly subjective and individual experiences/opinions and in no way reliable sources. You should use websites like gw2efficiency etc. to get a deeper understanding of wealth distribution across the gw2 community and that raiders have the tendency to be richer and thus are less reliant on rewards.
    (though they did get this rich by playing lucrative content of course^^)

    This last part. Is that the (wealthy players) tend to be less interested in the rewards, because the're rich, or is it that they're rich because they tend go for the rewards more?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less.

    So youre basically a parrot that doesnt even understand what it's saying. Great...
    What you're representing here are highly subjective and individual experiences/opinions and in no way reliable sources. You should use websites like gw2efficiency etc. to get a deeper understanding of wealth distribution across the gw2 community and that raiders have the tendency to be richer and thus are less reliant on rewards.
    (though they did get this rich by playing lucrative content of course^^)

    Nah, i just tell you only what i have seen. It's true it is nothing but personal experience (which should be obvious, i mean come on...) but since it's true for every MMO i have played, can't really tell you anything else. Anytime anyone anywhere start talking about difficulty, sooner rather than later the people who say they "enjoy" difficulty come to tell everyone how it should give more stuff, every time. They, of course, also say they enjoy it but as soon as someone tells them "isn't it supposed to be fun for you, why more stuff?" the raiders especially knock them down with the might of a thousand suns.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2020

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less.

    So youre basically a parrot that doesnt even understand what it's saying. Great...
    What you're representing here are highly subjective and individual experiences/opinions and in no way reliable sources. You should use websites like gw2efficiency etc. to get a deeper understanding of wealth distribution across the gw2 community and that raiders have the tendency to be richer and thus are less reliant on rewards.
    (though they did get this rich by playing lucrative content of course^^)

    Nah, i just tell you only what i have seen. It's true it is nothing but personal experience (which should be obvious, i mean come on...) but since it's true for every MMO i have played, can't really tell you anything else. Anytime anyone anywhere start talking about difficulty, sooner rather than later the people who say they "enjoy" difficulty come to tell everyone how it should give more stuff, every time. They, of course, also say they enjoy it but as soon as someone tells them "isn't it supposed to be fun for you, why more stuff?" the raiders especially knock them down with the might of a thousand suns.

    Even as someone who after having played for 8+ years doesn't really care much about rewards anymore and just enjoys Raiding for the gameplay and social aspect still have to say I do find it silly that brain afk auto attacking in some open world zerg gives up to 300%+ of the rewards per hour, without cap, than the most difficult organised group content in the game does once per week.
    Just in terms of principle that doesn't make sense, just like if someone studied law or medicine mainly just because they enjoy it, they probably expect to earn more than if they had just gone directly into menial labor, so someone gearing and preparing for and learning Raids just for the fun of it might still expect rewards at least in parity to what they would get from holding down one in a zerg.
    It's logical that much greater effort should be more rewarding.

    Imo better rewards for Raids would be nice as carrot for more people to get into it, to then stay for the gameplay and community they might enjoy and form. They are not so much a personal concern though.

    I get that Anet really, really wants people to play their LW stuff, but they are stacking the deck a bit much in terms of to what content they lure players to with their loot carrots.

    Complaining about rewards doesn't mean that's all or even mainly what people play for though.

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