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Structured PVP vs WvW pips chests rewards

Can someone tell me why the rewards of structured PvP pips chests give a lot of gold and the ones in WvW dont and also several grandmaster marks instead of 3 pieces per week, i dont know, its because we can loot people when they die, what do you think???

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  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lPachecoLpGl.2541 said:
    Can someone tell me why the rewards of structured PvP pips chests give a lot of gold and the ones in WvW dont and also several grandmaster marks instead of 3 pieces per week, i dont know, its because we can loot people when they die, what do you think???

    From what I know when the pips was introduced in WvW anyway, PvP had seasons and some off season where you couldn't earn pips for 2 weeks or somet.. in WvW it's reset every week regardless.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭

    i have no idea what u just wrote. i sit on my gold like a dragon, i buy freaking platinum ore for tons of money on the TP and my gold grows from alone. crying for gold is something i don't understand, that is all i say.

    from my part the spvp rewards are clearly better than the wvw ones, but i as said don't play spvp much, few times in few months some games., wvw at least 4 days a week some hours.

  • SevlisBavles.3059SevlisBavles.3059 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @lPachecoLpGl.2541 said:
    Can someone tell me why the rewards of structured PvP pips chests give a lot of gold and the ones in WvW dont and also several grandmaster marks instead of 3 pieces per week, i dont know, its because we can loot people when they die, what do you think???

    WvW income:

    Kills (money, drops, badges)
    Reward track (whatevers)
    Skirmish chests (whatever you pick, but probably testimonies are your best bet)
    WvW rank (~30s, 2 items (pretty often I get something good myself, more often than from regular drops), badges and a shard)
    Resource sims (ok minor, but it's something)
    Karma from events
    (honestly I feel like I'm still missing something)

    PvP income:

    Chests
    Track

    Honestly WvW is a kitten goldmine if you play it right. It will fund itself if you balance laurel XP boosters with gem XP boosters and mix in the occasional birthday/celebration booster, especially when there's a +50/100% WXP event you can make an absolute killing in WvW. Also I don't know if people still kitten about badges and testimonies, but they are worthwhile enough now. Badges come down to about 30-40 bronze a piece and testimonies come down to about 2 silver a piece.

    WvW income is fine.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    • No off-season in WvW
    • Players and objectives give loot
    • Easier to maximize reward track gain
    • Rewards scale better in general
    • Gives several additional currencies
    • No queue times to make up for
    • Has resource nodes
  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    I was curious and made some calculations. Please note that this is not accurate and is only used to calculate the raw amount of gold you can get out of the skirmish chests + the amount of memory’s of battle I can earn with the normal reward tracks. Everything else you earn from this tracks like Mist-Warped-Bundle or Loot Boxes like „Moa loot Box“ are not included in the calculation. It’s up to you how to interpret it. Grand master Marks are also not listed because they are not sellable.

    104 Memory’s of battle = 12s/ea = 12.48g

    42 skirmish chests = 5s/ea = 2.1g

    158 Instant reward track progress = 25points/ea -> + 50Memory’s of battle = 12s/ea = 6g

    6 mystic coins = 1.64g/ea = 9.84g

    Subtotal = 30.42g

    -

    Trading fee = 15% = 4.56g

    Total = 25.86g

    -

    Total average skirmish pips per 5 minutes = 8pips/h

    Total average skirmish pips per hour = 96pips/h

    Total pips needed = 1450pips

    Amount of time needed = 15.1h

    -

    Gold per hour = 1.71g/h

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Because in pvp if you suck you will lose more often and progress way slower and you get a 6-7 minute que sometimes between matches. A loss is like 3 pips a win 10 so those chests take quite a bit and yes you get raw gold and if you are good and win all the time way more money. Now wvw you could suck and escort yaks or repair smc passively all day or flip a camp take 8 min break flip a camp so if they were equal then everyone would just contribute as little as possible in WvW for easy gold

    This ^

    Speaking purely about pips:

    • in PvP a higher skilled player will earn more over the course of a season than a lesser skilled one, as they will earn more pips, complete the Byz chest sooner, and then repeat it more often before the season ends.
    • in WvW a literal God of PvP and a Chia Pet placed in front of a keyboard will earn the same amount of pips, as the only variables are WvW rank, server position in the skirmish, outnumbered boon, and whether or no you completed wood chest the week before. Pips have exactly ZERO to do with skill, effort, or knowledge of the game.

    So anyone who wants to complain about how PvP has better rewards given via pip chests needs to acknowledge the reality that WvW is basically like the TV show Whose Line is it anyways , "where everything's made up and the points don't matter". And that will never change, because even if they did somehow introduce some kind of performance reward, in the end it just means the server with the most people and the most coverage will win, which again, has nothing to do with skill, effort or knowledge of the game, and players will bandwagon (even more) for cash & prizes.

    If it helps, just compare sPvP and WvW to their PvE counterparts: sPvP are Fractals, where T4 gives better rewards than T1, but requires more skill, knowledge and group composition to succeed, while WvW's equivalent is open world PvE, where nothing really matters, and your rewards are on a linear curve; the more time you spend there, the more you earn overall.

    Why do PvP chests get gold rewards and WvW dont? I can't answer that, though I suspect the reason is that in addition to everything else, WvW players can harvest resource nodes and get loot bags to drop off NPCs and other players. A month back I killed a Tower Lord and he dropped Dusk, which was worth 700g - you won't see that happening running around The Skyhammer. That said, WvW players also have to cover the costs of playing that mode, as you need to acquire gear and consumables like food, siege, supply traps, etc, so maybe that equals out the benefit of loot bags. One cannot ignore though, that a PvP player has every reason to want to repeat the Byz chest as it is worth 30g, while the WvW Diamond Chest on repeat has no skirmish tickets, and is basically just a handful of Memories of Battle.

    I do think that the WvW reward system is out of tune compared to sPvP, but good luck trying to fix that.

    Increase the gold-value per kill reward? You just further encourage 50-person blobs farming smaller groups.
    Increase the gold-value per objective seized? You just further encourage PVD-PPT and map hopping / zerg dodging.
    Increase the gold-value based on war score? You just further encourage server stacking, as well as #1 and #2.

    WvW is a fundamentally flawed premise, and the fact that it can be as fun to play as it is, and that as many players enjoy participating in it as they do, is in spite of that design, not as a result of it.

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    But why look at it this way. Why do we try to find the lowest common denominator for rewards and justify it with „it doesn’t matter how good you are and that’s why you don’t deserve more rewards“. Shouldn't we have the intent to want something better? Shouldn’t we want to reward „good“ players for doing something special? We already do that in PvP and it is totally acceptable.

    As you already mentioned everything is balanced around the fact that blobs can ktrain their way through everything and that the amount of players determine the loot (For me it looks like it’s a pve System implemented in pvp). So why not balance it round the delta of players on the map, the amount of players fighting against each other near a specific structure and by the amount of effort/time it took to cap a structure. Because the poor ktrain people wouldn’t ktrain anymore? The system is a huge f**k you to everyone who doesn’t want to play with the Zerg. It’s by far not as easy as to fantasize about it, but I think the question whether the implemented system is acceptable or not is justified. People are getting punished for not paying the transfer costs? Great concept... NOT. I think it’s a little bit short minded to say that balance can not be done because of the unequal amount of players

    Edit.: In addition I wanted to mention that I think its almost ridiculous if you consider this: 3 Hours Silver waste earns you more then you can get with a whole week WvW. Why is playing WvW considered as something you do for fun and not for the reward but for pve it is totally ok to basically vomit rewards.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Senqu.8054 said:
    to say that balance can not be done because of the unequal amount of players

    I want to draw your attention to your last statement, because I believe that is the core issue: you cannot balance a game mode that is inherently imbalanced.

    Do you know what the determining factor is between me zoning into EBG and seeing my server holding all T3 objectives vs. all paper?

    The clock.

    We might have a tag up, farming players in EBG lord's room, or draining their T3 keep, whatever. Then the clock hits a particular hour, and people have to go to work, go to bed, whatever, and a chunk of players, driver included, zone out.

    Now that enemy group, which up until now spent all their time running back from spawn to put more bags into the pockets of my server mates, are now running wild with abandon, overwhelming whatever random players and roamers remain on the map.

    That isn't skill at work, that's just coverage.

    It's been a while since I played WoW, but back then you zoned into a Battleground which had a timer, and a score threshold. When either was met, the match was over. Generally the instance wouldn't launch until your team was full, but even though sometimes it did, your team was almost as max numbers.

    WvW doesn't work like that. If you log out, the fight continues. If you tag down and your guild / other players log, the people you were farming 5 minutes earlier all of a sudden get really good at WvW and are able to defeat all opposition.

    The game was at a state where coverage was relatively constant, where one guild/commander tags down and another tags up, things would be different. But my experience, outside of NA Prime time ofc, has been one of feast vs. famine. Some times you log in and you have a 30+ squad running over everything in their path, while other times I zone in, and its the enemy servers who have a large group out farming bags.

    Sometimes you're the windshield, and other times you're the bug.

    There is no way to balance that. And while skill in WvW does exist, both at small and large levels, when all things are equal (skill, comp, etc), the larger group will win over the smaller group. So many times I've been in a group of 15-20 players going up against 40-50, and while we take out many of their backline, or lure them into a choke and score some bags, in the end we will lose. We didn't lose because they were any good at WvW, we lost because they had numbers, and the way WvW is currently designed supports that paradigm.

    As I state above: if ANET gives additional compensation, and therefore more incentive to actually win, you'll accomplish nothing but encourage behaviour we already complain about, that being server stacking, blobbing, PVD + map dodging.

    I said above I'm onboard with them changing the WvW reward structure, but I have no idea how you do it without creating the issue above, and I'll wager ANET doesn't know how to do it either. /shrug

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Senqu.8054 said:
    to say that balance can not be done because of the unequal amount of players

    I want to draw your attention to your last statement, because I believe that is the core issue: you cannot balance a game mode that is inherently imbalanced.

    Do you know what the determining factor is between me zoning into EBG and seeing my server holding all T3 objectives vs. all paper?

    The clock.

    We might have a tag up, farming players in EBG lord's room, or draining their T3 keep, whatever. Then the clock hits a particular hour, and people have to go to work, go to bed, whatever, and a chunk of players, driver included, zone out.

    Now that enemy group, which up until now spent all their time running back from spawn to put more bags into the pockets of my server mates, are now running wild with abandon, overwhelming whatever random players and roamers remain on the map.

    That isn't skill at work, that's just coverage.

    Hm I don’t really understand here what you want to say with that, since I already mentioned that the main problem is the amount of players fighting against each other.

    It's been a while since I played WoW, but back then you zoned into a Battleground which had a timer, and a score threshold. When either was met, the match was over. Generally the instance wouldn't launch until your team was full, but even though sometimes it did, your team was almost as max numbers.

    WvW doesn't work like that. If you log out, the fight continues. If you tag down and your guild / other players log, the people you were farming 5 minutes earlier all of a sudden get really good at WvW and are able to defeat all opposition.

    The game was at a state where coverage was relatively constant, where one guild/commander tags down and another tags up, things would be different. But my experience, outside of NA Prime time ofc, has been one of feast vs. famine. Some times you log in and you have a 30+ squad running over everything in their path, while other times I zone in, and its the enemy servers who have a large group out farming bags.

    Exactly, only because there is no player-dependent game start, we have this stupid problem. Don’t know where I have state that otherwise.

    Sometimes you're the windshield, and other times you're the bug.

    There is no way to balance that. And while skill in WvW does exist, both at small and large levels, when all things are equal (skill, comp, etc), the larger group will win over the smaller group. So many times I've been in a group of 15-20 players going up against 40-50, and while we take out many of their backline, or lure them into a choke and score some bags, in the end we will lose. We didn't lose because they were any good at WvW, we lost because they had numbers, and the way WvW is currently designed supports that paradigm.

    I am no game designer so my comments about game design are by far not the best but to say there is no way is to absolute in my opinion (and I learned that only siths deal in absolutes hihi). For example you can scale the hp of npcs by the amount of players who are in the area. The areas are already determined and since the glider update even visible. So in the sense of such a system it could be possible to calculate the amount of players in these areas and reward the side with less players in this specific area a little bit more for killing someone, capping the keep etc. the disadvantage of being outnumbered would be rewarded with one or two bags more.

    As I state above: if ANET gives additional compensation, and therefore more incentive to actually win, you'll accomplish nothing but encourage behaviour we already complain about, that being server stacking, blobbing, PVD + map dodging.

    I hope I don’t misunderstand you but just to make it clear it’s not about rewards for winning the match up I think this is a other thing to talk about.

    I said above I'm onboard with them changing the WvW reward structure, but I have no idea how you do it without creating the issue above, and I'll wager ANET doesn't know how to do it either. /shrug

    We are no game designer so it’s not our job :D but I don’t have to be a football trainer to say something is not right if you have to throw the ball in a basket

  • Undo.5091Undo.5091 Member ✭✭✭

    @OP

    That’s a question for the dev team.

    If you want to actually have some profit from WvW, you’ll want to be constantly making use of boosters. I eventually make some gold through using my guild’s WvW reward track bonus along with an experience booster and the Wintersday buff. I also try avoid spending gold by using food and siege that has already been placed by others. You still won’t be making as much as you would be in sPvP or PvE, but at least it’s something for your time.

    It would be neat if timed events involving either PvP-related combat or PvE could make it into WvW
    to increase the gold gain. Of course, if these events provided nothing to the server, there would be backlash from WvW guilds that have to deal with potentially larger queues.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    The solution is to change grandmaster mark shards to grandmaster marks for WvW and then lower gold from PvP losses in ranked (since you still get pips) especially if someone finished Byzantium already. There's too many bots in PvP as it is.

    Increasing drops isn't going to help as people will just ktrain.

  • Handin.4032Handin.4032 Member ✭✭✭

    Probably because every time they suggest (or community suggests) increasing WvW rewards, the forums get filled with a lot of "fight guild" players or super stacked servers saying how it would be the downfall of WvW from people coming in just for the rewards, rather than people "looking for fights (pvp)".

    Honestly, every time it fills up. Also, people saying "but pvp takes skill to get rewards", which just isn't true. Having higher skill means you get rewards faster, but heck - I went into pvp after not playing it for YEARS and earned more in a few days then I would over a week of WvW. At the end, the reason there aren't better rewards is mostly because a small, but very vocal, amount of the player base seems to dislike anything that brings PvE folks into WvW.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People take the wvw rewards at face value, if they don't see gold in the corner of their bag going up they're not making anything. There's quite a lot to get rewarded for if you're active. The reason why it's so time gated in wvw is because you can take long periods of break time with minimal effort(repair a wall) and get the same track rewards as someone that was in battle for just as long. Veterans who have spent a good amount of time in wvw get rewarded with more pips so faster skirmish track rewards, less time spent yet just as much slack off time can be taken. Rewards have come a long way since the early days.

    Kills

    • heavy loot bags.
    • currency.
    • low chance at pve item drops even legendary precursors.
    • rare drops which can be broken down for globs of ectoplasm
    • Objective lords that drop embroidered belt punch which has a chance to drop an exotic.

    Reward track

    • you can get access to all dungeon currencies.
    • living world map currencies.
    • rares to break down for ectos
    • crystal desert exotic armor chest, triumphant exotic armor chest, you select pieces and stats on.
    • plenty of other loot to break down to materials and sell, including new living story track that stuffs you with crafting mats.

    Skirmish reward track

    • memories of battle.
    • skirmish tickets to buy ascended.
    • grandmaster mark shards to eventually buy ascended weapons.
    • warlord armor, wvw exclusive exotic armor you can select pieces and stats on.
    • mist-warp packets that drops t1-6 crafting materials including ascended ones that sell for like 2-5 gold each.
    • mist-warp bundles which drops t6 mats.
    • mystic coins.
    • Skirmish chest that has more currency, superior siege, unidentified dyes, tricks and traps, transmutation charges, you choose what you want from it.

    Wxp rank up chest

    • has a chance to drop ascended rings, armor, weapons, precursors.
    • more rare drops to break down for ectos

    Gathering nodes in every objective. 2 gold from completing dailies.

    Go sell your heavy loot bags, memories of battle, all your crafting materials, exotic drops, good runes/sigils you extracted, mystic coins, unidentified dyes, globs of ectoplasm and see how much money you make off that.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me