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It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

Today marks the 1 year anniversary since wing 7 came out. The longest drought we’ve had with really no end in sight. RIP raid community.

At least we have strikes that bore the raiders to sleep right?

<134

Comments

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Strikes aren't raids. They're an absolute joke that bring no true challenge into the game. They don't teach people how to get into raids at all

    Changing their name to Strike Missions doesn‘t make them not be raids. Else ESO would not have raids.
    Also those „absolute joke“ raids are there to bridge non-raiders into raids, so making them as „challenging“ as raids is unreasonable.
    Jokes also seem very fitting for this circus.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • @Raknar.4735 said:
    You know what kills MMORPGs? A low playerbase when the game **only **caters to a small amount of players.

    No one ever wanted them to only cater to a small audiance. People just wanted a bit more than 3 Bosses every 9 months.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You know what kills MMORPGs? A low playerbase when the game **only **caters to a small amount of players.

    No one ever wanted them to only cater to a small audiance. People just wanted a bit more than 3 Bosses every 9 months.

    Not sure about the first part. I‘ve seen plenty of people being vehemently against any type of suggestion that opens up raids to more people, just to save their petty exclusivity. Like I‘ve said earlier, they can now reap what they‘ve sown.
    Second part is natural, many people want more content they enjoy, no matter the content. Having more people play the content makes it more likely that it will get more developement time.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    It's probably less than 1% of the player base that are raiding weekly.
    Those Developers are better spent on developing the Living World, which almost everyone plays, and Strike Missions, which seem to at least draw more players than raids.
    Before new Wings are introduced, the existing Wings should be made more accessible.

  • @Raknar.4735 said:
    Not sure about the first part. I‘ve seen plenty of people being vehemently against any type of suggestion that opens up raids to more people, just to save their petty exclusivity.

    But you said "When the game only caters to a small amount of players". That doesnt have anything to do exclusivity. No one wanted them to stop developing stuff everyone can complete.

    Like I‘ve said earlier, they can now reap what they‘ve sown.

    This is something that no one cans say for sure. Is the raid population low because theres no new people coming in or because raids took 9 months to release. Thats someone no one can answer for sure.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Not sure about the first part. I‘ve seen plenty of people being vehemently against any type of suggestion that opens up raids to more people, just to save their petty exclusivity.

    But you said "When the game only caters to a small amount of players". That doesnt have anything to do exclusivity. No one wanted them to stop developing stuff everyone can complete.

    Content that caters to a small amount of players is pretty exclusive. And some do want to hold onto that exclusivity instead of opening up the content to more players, so that the developers have more reason to create that type of content.

    Like I‘ve said earlier, they can now reap what they‘ve sown.

    This is something that no one cans say for sure. Is the raid population low because theres no new people coming in or because raids took 9 months to release. Thats someone no one can answer for sure.

    Yeah, no one can answer it for sure, but I'm pretty sure only a small handfull of people playing the content is the reason for it not being developed any faster. After that it's just a downward spiral of less people playing -> less developement time spent -> even less people playing.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Today marks the 1 year anniversary since wing 7 came out. The longest drought we’ve had with really no end in sight. RIP raid community.

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.

    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.

    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So it's not only Raids that are suffering, it's almost everything, but last few releases they started turning around.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Yes because Fractals that have multiple modes were so successful these last months, we've been flooded with so many new fractal releases thanks to their easy mode. Oh wait..

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Yes because Fractals that have multiple modes were so successful these last months, we've been flooded with so many new fractal releases thanks to their easy mode. Oh wait..

    Except we know Fractals are still in active development, can't say the same about raids, aside from Strike Missions. Maybe without the tiered fractals, they would be just as dead as dungeons? Who knows. Instanced group content just doesn't seem to be popular here

    @Fire Attunement.9835 said:
    On the topic of Fractals…

    Reports of their death have been greatly exaggerated, though I apologize that our silence on the topic raised that concern.
    I am personally committed to Fractals and see them as an area that deserves more focus and attention going forward. I'm happy to announce that Cameron Rich, who worked on Fractals during Season Three, will be taking the reins on a new Fractal as he rolls off his current duties. This Fractal will feature a challenge mode. Beyond that, I'm working with the Systems Design team on more plans to keep Fractals fresh and exciting. I'm excited and when everything is ready to share, we'll have more details.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Aizza.4950Aizza.4950 Member ✭✭

    I'm just convinced Raknar isn't good enough to raid and is salty because he just whines about making them easier lol

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Except we know Fractals are still in active development, can't say the same about raids, aside from Strike Missions. Maybe without the tiered fractals, they would be just as dead as dungeons? Who knows. Instanced group content just doesn't seem to be popular here

    Yes they started working on fractals again some... months ago. That is still almost 14-15 months without ANY actual Fractal development. Yes they are in active development NOW, but they haven't been for many many months, more than we are without Raids - 12 months just this month. So the idea that "difficulty tiers" was somehow the problem behind Raid development is defeated by the mere fact that content WITH difficulty tiers didn't have any kind of content development for more than a year, while a content WITHOUT difficulty tiers just reached that point now.

    But this isn't only about Fractals and Raids as the entire game's activities have been neglected the last few quarters, they only changed direction in 2020, I guess the massive revenue drops were a slap in the face and they are beginning to turn this ship around and not have open world content exclusively.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    I'm just convinced Raknar isn't good enough to raid and is salty because he just whines about making them easier lol

    Nice Ad hominem. I've raided in the past in a static, when only W1-3 where released, baited by the legendary armour to play content I don't enjoy. Then I've stopped raiding after asking myself why I should play content that I don't enjoy, since I've left WoW for exactly that reason: a focus on raiding content.

    But what do I know, I guess a raider that uses ad hominem attacks instead of actual arguments knows better. Atleast I can recognize a meme-version of a Dhuum text ;)
    But your response is pretty much one of the reasons why people don't enjoy that content. You reap what you sow.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Except we know Fractals are still in active development, can't say the same about raids, aside from Strike Missions. Maybe without the tiered fractals, they would be just as dead as dungeons? Who knows. Instanced group content just doesn't seem to be popular here

    Yes they started working on fractals again some... months ago. That is still almost 14-15 months without ANY actual Fractal development. Yes they are in active development NOW, but they haven't been for many many months, more than we are without Raids - 12 months just this month. So the idea that "difficulty tiers" was somehow the problem behind Raid development is defeated by the mere fact that content WITH difficulty tiers didn't have any kind of content development for more than a year, while a content WITHOUT difficulty tiers just reached that point now.

    But this isn't only about Fractals and Raids as the entire game's activities have been neglected the last few quarters, they only changed direction in 2020, I guess the massive revenue drops were a slap in the face and they are beginning to turn this ship around and not have open world content exclusively.

    You're completely ignoring that aside from the easy tiers, Fractals also is gated inherently by agony resistance. It has many systems in place that make starting into that content awful. Yes, I know you don't need the resistance from the get-go, but it still makes people not care about the content.

    I don't know if they have changed direction. The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

    So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You're completely ignoring that aside from the easy tiers, Fractals also is gated inherently by agony resistance. It has many systems in place that make starting into that content awful. Yes, I know you don't need the resistance from the get-go, but it still makes people not care about the content.

    I'm not ignoring anything. As you said, you do not need any agony resistance to play the "easy tiers" so your argument there is invalid. Also, Fractals is the highest source of gold in the game so that's a good reason to run them.

    I don't know if they have changed direction. The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

    The massive revenue drops were due to the lack of varied content. If for 12-14 months releasing exclusively open world content was working and was successful, why the sudden change at the start of 2020, and why did the director that focused on open world exclusively left the company silently. Probably because his latest direction wasn't working. (I know he's been director for a long time)

    So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

    Now that PVP and WVW restarted. Now that we get Strikes and Fractals are under development, we'll see if the revenue will start going up or down. There was already a hint of going up after they started their changes, so there is hope.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You're completely ignoring that aside from the easy tiers, Fractals also is gated inherently by agony resistance. It has many systems in place that make starting into that content awful. Yes, I know you don't need the resistance from the get-go, but it still makes people not care about the content.

    I'm not ignoring anything. As you said, you do not need any agony resistance to play the "easy tiers" so your argument there is invalid. Also, Fractals is the highest source of gold in the game so that's a good reason to run them.

    Except that's completely wrong. It doesn't make it invalid, since people still see the systems needed to run fractals. Many don't even bother starting because of systems like that. Same way how the term "Raid" scares people off, so games like ESO have tried renaming them into "Trials".
    If it is the highest source of gold in the game, but few run it, isn't it pretty telling? Where's the fun? Rewards alone are not always a good reason to run content, same thing with legendary armour in raids.

    I don't know if they have changed direction. The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

    The massive revenue drops were due to the lack of varied content. If for 12-14 months releasing exclusively open world content was working and was successful, why the sudden change at the start of 2020, and why did the director that focused on open world exclusively left the company silently. Probably because his latest direction wasn't working. (I know he's been director for a long time)

    It wasn't exclusively OW content though? Just look at build templates, the huge blunder quarter Q4. That system just didn't pay off, since it was targeted at a small audience. I doubt Ahdashim helped in Q2.

    So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

    Now that PVP and WVW restarted. Now that we get Strikes and Fractals are under development, we'll see if the revenue will start going up or down. There was already a hint of going up after they started their changes, so there is hope.

    Yeah, revenue going up, now that we know a expansion is on the horizon with more content and less raids. Not the bleak future with only systems like build templates to milk some players.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You're completely ignoring that aside from the easy tiers, Fractals also is gated inherently by agony resistance. It has many systems in place that make starting into that content awful. Yes, I know you don't need the resistance from the get-go, but it still makes people not care about the content.

    I'm not ignoring anything. As you said, you do not need any agony resistance to play the "easy tiers" so your argument there is invalid. Also, Fractals is the highest source of gold in the game so that's a good reason to run them.

    Except that's completely wrong. It doesn't make it invalid, since people still see the systems needed to run fractals. Many don't even bother starting because of systems like that. Same way how the term "Raid" scares people off, so games like ESO have tried renaming them into "Trials".
    If it is the highest source of gold in the game, but few run it, isn't it pretty telling? Where's the fun? Rewards alone are not always a good reason to run content, same thing with legendary armour in raids.

    It's not completely wrong unless you ignore the fact that those systems aren't even needed to play the "easy tiers" you said it yourself and now you are backtracking for some reason. The "systems" aren't used unless you reach at least T2 in Fractals, and even then only barely. You don't need anything more than a "dungeon build" to run Fractals.

    I don't know if they have changed direction. The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

    The massive revenue drops were due to the lack of varied content. If for 12-14 months releasing exclusively open world content was working and was successful, why the sudden change at the start of 2020, and why did the director that focused on open world exclusively left the company silently. Probably because his latest direction wasn't working. (I know he's been director for a long time)

    It wasn't exclusively OW content though? Just look at build templates, the huge blunder quarter. That system just didn't pay off, since it was targeted at a small audience. I doubt Ahdashim helped in Q2.

    It was exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content") build templates isn't content.

    So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

    Now that PVP and WVW restarted. Now that we get Strikes and Fractals are under development, we'll see if the revenue will start going up or down. There was already a hint of going up after they started their changes, so there is hope.

    Yeah, revenue going up, now that we know a expansion is on the horizon with more content and less raids. Not the bleak future with only systems like build templates to milk some players.

    You mean more varied content like, more PVP, more WVW, more fractals, and strike missions instanced content that for a change has a good release cadence. For WVW not so sure though, what they give is barely there but maybe the future is gonna be better and revenue will climb higher.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You're completely ignoring that aside from the easy tiers, Fractals also is gated inherently by agony resistance. It has many systems in place that make starting into that content awful. Yes, I know you don't need the resistance from the get-go, but it still makes people not care about the content.

    I'm not ignoring anything. As you said, you do not need any agony resistance to play the "easy tiers" so your argument there is invalid. Also, Fractals is the highest source of gold in the game so that's a good reason to run them.

    Except that's completely wrong. It doesn't make it invalid, since people still see the systems needed to run fractals. Many don't even bother starting because of systems like that. Same way how the term "Raid" scares people off, so games like ESO have tried renaming them into "Trials".
    If it is the highest source of gold in the game, but few run it, isn't it pretty telling? Where's the fun? Rewards alone are not always a good reason to run content, same thing with legendary armour in raids.

    It's not completely wrong unless you ignore the fact that those systems aren't even needed to play the "easy tiers" you said it yourself and now you are backtracking for some reason. The "systems" aren't used unless you reach at least T2 in Fractals, and even then only barely. You don't need anything more than a "dungeon build" to run Fractals.

    I'm not backtracking. The systems aren't needed in T1, but still drive people away because they exist. Same way the term "Raid" drive people away, or how "Corona"-Beer had losses because of the virus. It doesn't matter if the system isn't used in T1, players will still stay away based on perception.

    But still, running content that isn't fun just for a high reward is also a reason people don't play content, regardless of how hard or easy said content is.

    I don't know if they have changed direction. The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

    The massive revenue drops were due to the lack of varied content. If for 12-14 months releasing exclusively open world content was working and was successful, why the sudden change at the start of 2020, and why did the director that focused on open world exclusively left the company silently. Probably because his latest direction wasn't working. (I know he's been director for a long time)

    It wasn't exclusively OW content though? Just look at build templates, the huge blunder quarter. That system just didn't pay off, since it was targeted at a small audience. I doubt Ahdashim helped in Q2.

    It was exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content") build templates isn't content.

    Build templates are content and most likely the reason for the Q4 failure. Only because you can't "play" it, it doesn't mean that the devs had to spent plenty of time developing it. It is still content. The whole swiss tournament system is content, even though it is technical.

    It also matters what people can actually buy for revenue. Not many buy things developed for a small %.

    Going through https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release I'm still wondering where those mystical 6 to 14 months of only OW content are.

    So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

    Now that PVP and WVW restarted. Now that we get Strikes and Fractals are under development, we'll see if the revenue will start going up or down. There was already a hint of going up after they started their changes, so there is hope.

    Yeah, revenue going up, now that we know a expansion is on the horizon with more content and less raids. Not the bleak future with only systems like build templates to milk some players.

    You mean more varied content like, more PVP, more WVW, more fractals, and strike missions instanced content that for a change has a good release cadence. For WVW not so sure though, what they give is barely there but maybe the future is gonna be better and revenue will climb higher.

    More content as in content. More stuff to do, more systems to explore. The gamemodes are just a part of the new content. So yeah, I hope they release more things to enjoy catered towards the majority / things that pay off for Anet, unlike templates and raids, apparently.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Instanced group content just doesn't seem to be popular here

    That's because there is no instanced group content outside of (most) story dungeons which is aimed towards the more general casual player base. It simply doesn't exist.

    But there is nothing about the structure of that content which turns away these kinds of players. The issue is that whenever the Devs. want to design instanced content they somehow seem to take an increase in difficulty as a requirement when it really shouldn't be.

    I remember the Devs. of another game releasing a reworked version of one of the outdated raids for an event aimed at casuals and I often times saw people in the chat writing stuff like "I wish actual raids would be like that" so a general interest to play this kind of content was there even among those who usually wouldn't go anywhere near it and I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same for GW2.

    I think the game should have some instanced content for both 1-5 and 5-10 player groups aimed at the casual part of the playerbase just like I'd also like to see some OW maps where the difficulty of the events is on paar with your average raid content, I think there is a lot of untaped potential here.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Instanced group content just doesn't seem to be popular here

    That's because there is no instanced group content outside of (most) story dungeons which is aimed towards the more general casual player base. It simply doesn't exist.

    But there is nothing about the structure of that content which turns away these kinds of players. The issue is that whenever the Devs. want to design instanced content they somehow seem to take an increase in difficulty as a requirement when it really shouldn't be.

    I remember the Devs. of another game releasing a reworked version of one of the outdated raids for an event aimed at casuals and I often times saw people in the chat writing stuff like "I wish actual raids would be like that" so a general interest to play this kind of content was there even among those who usually wouldn't go anywhere near it and I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same for GW2.

    I think the game should have some instanced content for both 1-5 and 5-10 player groups aimed at the casual part of the playerbase just like I'd also like to see some OW maps where the difficulty of the events is on paar with your average raid content, I think there is a lot of untaped potential here.

    I agree, instanced content aimed towards the more general casual players could work. That's why Anet is exactly trying that with Strike Missions and Forging Steel.
    It will however not work as a bridge to the current "Raids".

    Guess I should have said something like "organized" instance group content, or something similiar. What I mean is instanced content where you have to have specific roles and wait for them in LFG until all the correct roles are found, together with boss mechanics that make the whole group fail if one person does a wrong move. Waiting for a group or individuals + Individual responsibility during a bossfight is something people stay away from, if they can ignore or let someone else do a mechanic, they will.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    I agree, instanced content aimed towards the more general casual players could work. That's why Anet is exactly trying that with Strike Missions and Forging Steel.

    I'd argue that strike missions are less aimed at the more general casual players but at those who already want to get into raids as bridge content.

    Forging Steel gets close but screws up at the finish line so I wouldn't count that one either. The issue here is the BB at the end which is easily able to turn the last part into a mess if not enough players do the mechanic (which most casuals don't). If this was your average OW meta boss then breaking his BB would have stunned him but he wouldn't have his Hardened Shell "buff" which is why, while I do think that Forging Steel was aimed at the more casual part of the player base, they missed the mark on that one (but only slightly).

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Strikes aren't raids. They're an absolute joke that bring no true challenge into the game. They don't teach people how to get into raids at all

    Changing their name to Strike Missions doesn‘t make them not be raids. Else ESO would not have raids.
    Also those „absolute joke“ raids are there to bridge non-raiders into raids, so making them as „challenging“ as raids is unreasonable.
    Jokes also seem very fitting for this circus.

    You can call them whatever you want, fact is they don't help transitioning into Raids at all. And why? Because with the exception of the chains on WoJ and the green circles on certain bosses you can ignore any mechanic all together. I have literally never seen a squad doing torches on Boneskinner. You can just stack on the boss and overheal. WoJ in last phase is just another effect overload without any substance. Freanir is Shiverpeak Pass 2.0 with a few extras that make no essential difference. Fallen and Claw are dangerous only in the last phase, but it's rather a dps race than a mechanic. And cold war, well it's basically open world trash mobs with some champion bosses and a legendary that again is just an overheal dps sponge. CMs on Forged Steel are the only thing that requieres a bit of coordination, but it's hardly something that makes you better suited for raids.

    Another funny thing is how many casual players avoid the "harder" strike missions completely. So again it's less a question of beginner friendlyness rather than honest ambition to improve. There are enough videos and guides out there on how to do Wing1-7, and if you are truly interested in doing them Strike Missions are redundant and useless.

    It might feel conciliatory for a casuals to think Strike Missions are an alternative to raids, and that is nice, but really their gap in difficulty and mechanics is so significant that to this day any raid training still takes place in an actual raid wing. And that certainly speaks for itself.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Strikes aren't raids. They're an absolute joke that bring no true challenge into the game. They don't teach people how to get into raids at all

    Changing their name to Strike Missions doesn‘t make them not be raids. Else ESO would not have raids.
    Also those „absolute joke“ raids are there to bridge non-raiders into raids, so making them as „challenging“ as raids is unreasonable.
    Jokes also seem very fitting for this circus.

    You can call them whatever you want, fact is they don't help transitioning into Raids at all. And why? Because with the exception of the chains on WoJ and the green circles on certain bosses you can ignore any mechanic all together. I have literally never seen a squad doing torches on Boneskinner. You can just stack on the boss and overheal. WoJ in last phase is just another effect overload without any substance. Freanir is Shiverpeak Pass 2.0 with a few extras that make no essential difference. Fallen and Claw are dangerous only in the last phase, but it's rather a dps race than a mechanic. And cold war, well it's basically open world trash mobs with some champion bosses and a legendary that again is just an overheal dps sponge. CMs on Forged Steel are the only thing that requieres a bit of coordination, but it's hardly something that makes you better suited for raids.

    Upcoming Strike Missions might become more challenging, who knows. But in terms of teaching you how to do actual raids the current instances won't help at all.

    Another funny thing is how many casual players avoid the "harder" strike missions completely. So again it's less a question of beginner friendlyness rather than honest ambition to improve. There are enough videos and guides out there on how to do Wing1-7, and if you are truly interested in doing them Strike Missions are redundant and useless.

    It might feel conciliatory for a casuals to think Strike Missions are an alternative to raids, and that is nice, but really their gap in difficulty and mechanics is so significant that to this day any raid training still takes place in an actual raid wing. And that certainly speaks for itself.

    Nothing new to me. Strike Missions will not work as a bridge. Difficulty scaling stages would have been far better to learn the boss mechanics, but some raiders are against those.

    Not sure if it has to do something with ambition to improve, or rather just not enjoying that type of content at all. Those who are interested in raids can find out how to do Wings 1-7, but that's just a small portion of the population. Most "casuals" will not try the current raids at all in the state they are. Anet are trying SMs to be a bridge, but like I've said plenty of times: It will not work. The current raids just don't work for the majority and that is the reason we aren't seeing any new releases.

    You can fault "casuals" all you want, about their "lacking ambition" or w/e, but that will not get you any raids developed. That's like saying people are at fault for not buying your product, instead of realizing that your product may be faulty or just not something many people want to buy.
    They just play what they enjoy and don't care about the other content. Maybe they avoid the harder ones because they're just not fun for them? Nothing to do with ambition.

    I also don't see many "casuals" trying out SMs currently, I've just noticed some in Forging Steel (which doesn't seem to be a Strike Mission Anet hasn't called it that once) because you automatically join it, but most are just the typical average players, raiders, PvPers, WvWers and OWers alike. Some bad, some average, some good.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
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  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Strikes aren't raids. They're an absolute joke that bring no true challenge into the game. They don't teach people how to get into raids at all

    Changing their name to Strike Missions doesn‘t make them not be raids. Else ESO would not have raids.
    Also those „absolute joke“ raids are there to bridge non-raiders into raids, so making them as „challenging“ as raids is unreasonable.
    Jokes also seem very fitting for this circus.

    You can call them whatever you want, fact is they don't help transitioning into Raids at all. And why? Because with the exception of the chains on WoJ and the green circles on certain bosses you can ignore any mechanic all together. I have literally never seen a squad doing torches on Boneskinner. You can just stack on the boss and overheal. WoJ in last phase is just another effect overload without any substance. Freanir is Shiverpeak Pass 2.0 with a few extras that make no essential difference. Fallen and Claw are dangerous only in the last phase, but it's rather a dps race than a mechanic. And cold war, well it's basically open world trash mobs with some champion bosses and a legendary that again is just an overheal dps sponge. CMs on Forged Steel are the only thing that requieres a bit of coordination, but it's hardly something that makes you better suited for raids.

    Upcoming Strike Missions might become more challenging, who knows. But in terms of teaching you how to do actual raids the current instances won't help at all.

    Another funny thing is how many casual players avoid the "harder" strike missions completely. So again it's less a question of beginner friendlyness rather than honest ambition to improve. There are enough videos and guides out there on how to do Wing1-7, and if you are truly interested in doing them Strike Missions are redundant and useless.

    It might feel conciliatory for a casuals to think Strike Missions are an alternative to raids, and that is nice, but really their gap in difficulty and mechanics is so significant that to this day any raid training still takes place in an actual raid wing. And that certainly speaks for itself.

    Strike Missions will not work as a bridge.

    Yes, they could. But they have to be crafted completely differently. First of all these fights need to have slower pacing (exception Cold War), but with mechanics you have to respect and that actually punish you if failed. They have to be slower because many casual players have bad combat movement. With enough repitition that will improve, and so the requiered mechanics will become easier and easier until one realizes that the time has come to try an actual raid wing / boss.

    For example while WoJ is a bit more difficult than other Strike Missions it is by far too fast paced. It's a barrage of information squeezed into very narrow time windows, it's almost impossible to properly process it. And some mechanics are meaningless, like the spikes or the winds the boss casts. Whats their point if they hit you like a wet noodle? Then in the last phase it unloads gazillions of huge orange AoE balls into your face, but all you have to do is finding a safe place on the outer part of the platform. It's childish design that doesn't help a player acquiring new insights on how to play better.

    And overall the bosses should have a little less health, so that dps rotations do not dominate over learning mechanics.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Strikes aren't raids. They're an absolute joke that bring no true challenge into the game. They don't teach people how to get into raids at all

    Changing their name to Strike Missions doesn‘t make them not be raids. Else ESO would not have raids.
    Also those „absolute joke“ raids are there to bridge non-raiders into raids, so making them as „challenging“ as raids is unreasonable.
    Jokes also seem very fitting for this circus.

    You can call them whatever you want, fact is they don't help transitioning into Raids at all. And why? Because with the exception of the chains on WoJ and the green circles on certain bosses you can ignore any mechanic all together. I have literally never seen a squad doing torches on Boneskinner. You can just stack on the boss and overheal. WoJ in last phase is just another effect overload without any substance. Freanir is Shiverpeak Pass 2.0 with a few extras that make no essential difference. Fallen and Claw are dangerous only in the last phase, but it's rather a dps race than a mechanic. And cold war, well it's basically open world trash mobs with some champion bosses and a legendary that again is just an overheal dps sponge. CMs on Forged Steel are the only thing that requieres a bit of coordination, but it's hardly something that makes you better suited for raids.

    Upcoming Strike Missions might become more challenging, who knows. But in terms of teaching you how to do actual raids the current instances won't help at all.

    Another funny thing is how many casual players avoid the "harder" strike missions completely. So again it's less a question of beginner friendlyness rather than honest ambition to improve. There are enough videos and guides out there on how to do Wing1-7, and if you are truly interested in doing them Strike Missions are redundant and useless.

    It might feel conciliatory for a casuals to think Strike Missions are an alternative to raids, and that is nice, but really their gap in difficulty and mechanics is so significant that to this day any raid training still takes place in an actual raid wing. And that certainly speaks for itself.

    Strike Missions will not work as a bridge.

    Yes, they could. But they have to be crafted completely differently. First of all these fights need to have slower pacing (exception Cold War), but with mechanics you have to respect and that actually punish you if failed. They have to be slower because many casual players have bad combat movement. With enough repitition that will improve, and so the requiered mechanics will become easier and easier until one realizes that the time has come to try an actual raid wing / boss.

    For example while WoJ is a bit more difficult than other Strike Missions it is by far too fast paced. It's a barrage of information squeezed into very narrow time windows, it's almost impossible to properly process it. And some mechanics are meaningless, like the spikes or the winds the boss casts. Whats their point if they hit you like a wet noodle? Then in the last phase it unloads gazillions of huge orange AoE balls into your face, but all you have to do is finding a safe place on the outer part of the platform. It's childish design that doesn't help a player acquiring new insights on how to play better.

    And overall the bosses should have a little less health, so that dps rotations do not dominate over learning mechanics.

    Guess we'll have to disagree then. I really don't think SMs will be able to be a bridge to current raids. The current raids themselves are the problem. Trying to sell an undesirable product by creating another that is somehow linked to the first rarely works.

    Also, many players have bad combat movement. Not sure why you think that's a trait of most casual players, when playing a game casually doesn't mean you're bad. The truth is those are just simply bad players. They are everywhere, PvP, OW, Raids, you name it. Being casual =/= being bad.
    You will also not get the majority of players to repeat mechanics and wipe over and over again. That's simply not fun for them and they will ignore the content. That's especially true for casual players, players that generally don't invest a lot of times into their games.

    There's a reason why Soulslikes and roguelikes, where death and repeat is predominant, are a niche compared to other games.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?
    Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:

    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Also please don't give me the: "oh but they could have in the past bs." Raids as is were barely seeing any resources development wise. Adding more layers would have simply delayed past raids even more beyond the comedical release time frames (and probably cancelled some completely).

    What "killed" raids is simple: lack of support of the content to justify players who enjoy it stick with the game.

    TL;DR:
    The reason some players like myself were and still are opposed to easy mode raids in the past and present is very simple:

    • strikes have shown that simply giving players easier content will NOT get them ready for more challenging content. The final step remains the same of getting into some form of training to prepare for raids, be it a guild, discord, friends, w/e. As such easier content can at best encourage players to take that step, and this can better be done with fresh content and not rehashing old fights (in that regard, strikes are superior to theoretical easy mode raids even)
    • the resource budget for raids was thin as is. There was never enough to go around for multiple difficulties without either delaying normal level raids, thus depriving the active player base of content which as we can see is damaging, or stripping other content, primary open world content development, of resources thus increasing overall resources devoted to instanced content.
    • strikes and their implementation and effect have basically confirmed both of those assumptions to be highly probable
  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?
    Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:

    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Also please don't give me the: "oh but they could have in the past bs." Raids as is were barely seeing any resources development wise. Adding more layers would have simply delayed past raids even more beyond the comedical release time frames (and probably cancelled some completely).

    What "killed" raids is simple: lack of support of the content to justify players who enjoy it stick with the game.

    You know what? I'm giving you the "could have in the past" bs. There. They could have.
    But they didn't. You reap what you sow. That's the entire point.
    Easy modes could have saved raids, but now it is too late. With enough players playing those, more development time could have been invested. But it's too late.

    Raids got "killed" by both the raiders that didn't want easy mode and Anet listening to them. Lack of support and current spending on that type of content is the result. Simple, really. With basically no one playing them, why invest even further? Part of the raiding community made it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I don't see Strike Missions as a "bridge", like Anet said, they're a restart of a content type that didn't interest many players due to several reasons. They've already tried a variety of different SMs, and even a scaling instanced mission. Let's see what sticks.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?
    Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:

    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Also please don't give me the: "oh but they could have in the past bs." Raids as is were barely seeing any resources development wise. Adding more layers would have simply delayed past raids even more beyond the comedical release time frames (and probably cancelled some completely).

    What "killed" raids is simple: lack of support of the content to justify players who enjoy it stick with the game.

    You know what? I'm giving you the "could have in the past" bs. There. They could have.
    But they didn't. You reap what you sow. That's the entire point.
    Easy modes could have saved raids, but now it is too late. With enough players playing those, more development time could have been invested. But it's too late.

    Raids got "killed" by both the raiders that didn't want easy mode and Anet listening to them. Lack of support and current spending on that type of content is the result.

    I don't see Strike Missions as a "bridge", like Anet said, they're a restart of a content type that didn't interest many players due to several reasons.

    First, easy mode raids would have achieved the exact same thing that strikes do. You still seem not to have understood that the gap between strikes and raids would have been just as present with easy mode raids. The last step remains in both cases: find people who can teach you. That does not change. What does change is that strikes are new content, or rather as "new" as one can hope, which at least encourages players to jump in initially.

    So the mere comment that easy mode raids would have fared any different than strikes is already nonsense. Unless you argue from a position of someone who is clueless about the content and has never accompanied players through the entire process of novice to experienced raider.

    Second, as far as they could have done things differently in the past: not with the resources devoted to the content which where present in the past. Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?
    Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:

    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Also please don't give me the: "oh but they could have in the past bs." Raids as is were barely seeing any resources development wise. Adding more layers would have simply delayed past raids even more beyond the comedical release time frames (and probably cancelled some completely).

    What "killed" raids is simple: lack of support of the content to justify players who enjoy it stick with the game.

    You know what? I'm giving you the "could have in the past" bs. There. They could have.
    But they didn't. You reap what you sow. That's the entire point.
    Easy modes could have saved raids, but now it is too late. With enough players playing those, more development time could have been invested. But it's too late.

    Raids got "killed" by both the raiders that didn't want easy mode and Anet listening to them. Lack of support and current spending on that type of content is the result.

    I don't see Strike Missions as a "bridge", like Anet said, they're a restart of a content type that didn't interest many players due to several reasons.

    First, easy mode raids would have achieved the exact same thing that strikes do. You still seem not to have understood that the gap between strikes and raids would have been just as present with easy mode raids. The last step remains in both cases: find people who can teach you. That does not change. What does change is that strikes are new content, or rather as "new" as one can hope, which at least encourages players to jump in initially.

    So the mere comment that easy mode raids would have fared any different than strikes is already nonsense. Unless you argue from a position of someone who is clueless about the content and has never accompanied players through the entire process of novice to experienced raider.

    Second, as far as they could have done things differently in the past: not with the resources devoted to the content which where present in the past. Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    Looks like it is you, who doesn't get the reasoning for easy modes. It's not only to get people to play the harder modes, but to create content at all.
    Why do you think WoW and FFXIV do have easy modes?
    To make players go from LFR -> Normal -> HC -> Mythic?
    Most people that play LFR don't even play the other difficulties, yet Blizzard can still happily devote development time to that content. Because there's an LFR and a normal version, Blizzard is able to produce content for Mythic players. They can create content that is played by every group, therefore the Mythic version isn't a drain on the game.
    They don't have to create completely new environments or boss designs or scipted bossfights, they just adapt numbers and add a few mechanics for the Mythic versions. Sometimes even adding a new phase.
    Same thing for FFXIV and their situation with savage raids. They can produce savage difficulties for HC players, because the raids themselves are being played by people.

    Sounds familiar? Anet is currently trying the same with SMs, but the wrong way. Instead of having story bosses with different mechanics reappear in SMs, SMs should also have different difficulties, each starting with a laughably easy version that can be hotjoined into like Shiverpeaks Pass.

    There were plenty of people working on raids. They said about 6 people? I doubt that is the truth, unless you think all of those 6 people are able to create sound, models, environment, boss mechanics, spell designs, etc. I mean, Maclaine Diemer would have been part of the team, since some of the Boss music like Gorseval was made by him (and his team). So only 5 left, right?

    So yeah, it does pose several interesting hypothethicals:
    Were the 6 people mentioned really all that were involved in raids? Or did they also allocate dev time of sound, models etc. teams into raid content, but didn't count them as active developers for that specific content?
    How many people are actually in those OW content teams, if you remove everyone that is doing sounds, modeling etc.?

    Pride is such a frivolous thing sometimes, always getting in the way. I wonder who the clueless one is?
    But that's over anyways. This harvest is over, and the raid crops aren't looking good.
    I wonder, will the next harvest fare any better? Will the farmers and the workers on the field learn?

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    That depends. The core of the issue was never "open world vs. instanced" content but "easy vs. hard" content. Most people are not going to care that much if e.g. the next expansion instead of open world is focusing more on instanced content as long as the content itself is as difficult / rewarding as you would expect from an OW map.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?
    Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:

    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Also please don't give me the: "oh but they could have in the past bs." Raids as is were barely seeing any resources development wise. Adding more layers would have simply delayed past raids even more beyond the comedical release time frames (and probably cancelled some completely).

    What "killed" raids is simple: lack of support of the content to justify players who enjoy it stick with the game.

    You know what? I'm giving you the "could have in the past" bs. There. They could have.
    But they didn't. You reap what you sow. That's the entire point.
    Easy modes could have saved raids, but now it is too late. With enough players playing those, more development time could have been invested. But it's too late.

    Raids got "killed" by both the raiders that didn't want easy mode and Anet listening to them. Lack of support and current spending on that type of content is the result.

    I don't see Strike Missions as a "bridge", like Anet said, they're a restart of a content type that didn't interest many players due to several reasons.

    First, easy mode raids would have achieved the exact same thing that strikes do. You still seem not to have understood that the gap between strikes and raids would have been just as present with easy mode raids. The last step remains in both cases: find people who can teach you. That does not change. What does change is that strikes are new content, or rather as "new" as one can hope, which at least encourages players to jump in initially.

    So the mere comment that easy mode raids would have fared any different than strikes is already nonsense. Unless you argue from a position of someone who is clueless about the content and has never accompanied players through the entire process of novice to experienced raider.

    Second, as far as they could have done things differently in the past: not with the resources devoted to the content which where present in the past. Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    Looks like it is you, who doesn't get the reasoning for easy modes. It's not only to get people to play the harder modes, but to create content at all.
    Why do you think WoW and FFXIV do have easy modes?
    To make players go from LFR -> Normal -> HC -> Mythic?
    Most people that play LFR don't even play the other difficulties, yet Blizzard can still happily devote development time to that content. Because there's an LFR and a normal version, Blizzard is able to produce content for Mythic players. They can create content that is played by every group, therefore the Mythic version isn't a drain on the game.
    They don't have to create completely new environments or boss designs or scipted bossfights, they just adapt numbers and add a few mechanics for the Mythic versions. Sometimes even adding a new phase.
    Same thing for FFXIV and their situation with savage raids. They can produce savage difficulties for HC players, because the raids themselves are being played by people.

    and both of those games feed the players throwaway gear for the gear threadmills.

    Gear threadmills which gate the harder content which makes both content design as well as implentation a lot easier.

    Oh and fun fact, both WoW and FF14 have vastly bigger teams on instanced content.

    If you are suggesting that there should have been more resources devoted to instanced content and that would have helped? Yes, I fully agree.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Sounds familiar? Anet is currently trying the same with SMs, but the wrong way. Instead of having story bosses with different mechanics reappear in SMs, SMs should also have different difficulties, each starting with a laughably easy version that can be hotjoined into like Shiverpeaks Pass.

    Because the hot join feature has been working amazingly well. Oh wait, the LFG is still the primary way groups form. I guess all those players who wanted automated group finders were idiots then? Remeber when that was an argument for raids and people accessing them? Just as useless.

    Oh and this too was called by players who understand grouping and the demands which it has to meet.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    There were plenty of people working on raids. They said about 6 people? I doubt that is the truth, unless you think all of those 6 people are able to create sound, models, environment, boss mechanics, spell designs, etc. I mean, Maclaine Diemer would have been part of the team, since some of the Boss music like Gorseval was made by him (and his team). So only 5 left, right?
    So yeah, it does pose several interesting hypothethicals:
    Were the 6 people mentioned really all that were involved in raids? Or did they also allocate dev time of sound, models etc. teams into raid content, but didn't count them as active developers for that specific content?

    I was going by amount of content released and time between releases. I don't even have to get into the official mentioned developer numbers because the amount of content released speaks for itsself.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    How many people are actually in those OW content teams, if you remove everyone that is doing sounds, modeling etc.?

    Pride is such a frivolous thing sometimes, always getting in the way. I wonder who the clueless one is?
    But that's over anyways. This harvest is over, and the raid crops aren't looking good.
    I wonder, will the next harvest fare any better? Will the farmers and the workers on the field learn?

    Yes, and know it all sideliners who have no experience with the content giving their 2 cents is just as useful now as it was years ago.

    Here is a suggestions:
    Start playing this content. Get good enough to train others. Train others and then get back here and make the same claims. Very unlikely you would because you'd actually understand WHY easy mode raids would not have worked.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    That depends. The core of the issue was never "open world vs. instanced" content but "easy vs. hard" content. Most people are not going to care that much if e.g. the next expansion instead of open world is focusing more on instanced content as long as the content itself is as difficult / rewarding as you would expect from an OW map.

    I would disagree. While the current "regular" open world releases are on time. Past vocal forum presence has shown that delay of new open world content was never met with eagerness or approval.

    On top of which there is a strong aversion to instanced content in a large open world part of the community, at least from those active on the forums.

    I'd also assume that delays in new content releases would also have an effect on the revenue generated from returning players and the gem store for those story beats. Which has been cycling and offering more and more items lately to obviously increase revenue.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?
    Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:

    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Also please don't give me the: "oh but they could have in the past bs." Raids as is were barely seeing any resources development wise. Adding more layers would have simply delayed past raids even more beyond the comedical release time frames (and probably cancelled some completely).

    What "killed" raids is simple: lack of support of the content to justify players who enjoy it stick with the game.

    You know what? I'm giving you the "could have in the past" bs. There. They could have.
    But they didn't. You reap what you sow. That's the entire point.
    Easy modes could have saved raids, but now it is too late. With enough players playing those, more development time could have been invested. But it's too late.

    Raids got "killed" by both the raiders that didn't want easy mode and Anet listening to them. Lack of support and current spending on that type of content is the result.

    I don't see Strike Missions as a "bridge", like Anet said, they're a restart of a content type that didn't interest many players due to several reasons.

    First, easy mode raids would have achieved the exact same thing that strikes do. You still seem not to have understood that the gap between strikes and raids would have been just as present with easy mode raids. The last step remains in both cases: find people who can teach you. That does not change. What does change is that strikes are new content, or rather as "new" as one can hope, which at least encourages players to jump in initially.

    So the mere comment that easy mode raids would have fared any different than strikes is already nonsense. Unless you argue from a position of someone who is clueless about the content and has never accompanied players through the entire process of novice to experienced raider.

    Second, as far as they could have done things differently in the past: not with the resources devoted to the content which where present in the past. Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    Looks like it is you, who doesn't get the reasoning for easy modes. It's not only to get people to play the harder modes, but to create content at all.
    Why do you think WoW and FFXIV do have easy modes?
    To make players go from LFR -> Normal -> HC -> Mythic?
    Most people that play LFR don't even play the other difficulties, yet Blizzard can still happily devote development time to that content. Because there's an LFR and a normal version, Blizzard is able to produce content for Mythic players. They can create content that is played by every group, therefore the Mythic version isn't a drain on the game.
    They don't have to create completely new environments or boss designs or scipted bossfights, they just adapt numbers and add a few mechanics for the Mythic versions. Sometimes even adding a new phase.
    Same thing for FFXIV and their situation with savage raids. They can produce savage difficulties for HC players, because the raids themselves are being played by people.

    and both of those games feed the players throwaway gear for the gear threadmills.

    Gear threadmills which gate the harder content which makes both content design as well as implentation a lot easier.

    Oh and fun fact, both WoW and FF14 have vastly bigger teams on instanced content.

    If you are suggesting that there should have been more resources devoted to instanced content and that would have helped? Yes, I fully agree.

    The gear treadmill and throwaway gear don't matter for the mechanics, only for the numbers. In FFXIV you can also forge pretty good gear once a raid releases, so that you don't have to repeat the whole grind.

    WoW and FF14 are also bigger, so it's normal to have a higher headcount on all teams.
    Fun fact: FF14 is focusing more and more on different things like "Ocean Fishing", just simple Open World stuff.

    I'm suggesting you don't understand the reasoning behind the different difficulties in those games. I'm also suggesting that the teams were big enough, but the focus missplaced to sate the hunger of a small percentage of players.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Sounds familiar? Anet is currently trying the same with SMs, but the wrong way. Instead of having story bosses with different mechanics reappear in SMs, SMs should also have different difficulties, each starting with a laughably easy version that can be hotjoined into like Shiverpeaks Pass.

    Because the hot join feature has been working amazingly well. Oh wait, the LFG is still the primary way groups form. I guess all those players who wanted automated group fibders were idiots then? Remeber when that was an argument for raids and peopöe accessing them? Just as useless.

    Ah yes, the LFG is working great, that's why the current raid population is not lacking at all! There are always groups around and I can do anything I want!

    It has of course nothing to do with players not being able to beat the content after hot joining.
    Oh, what's that? It worked for Forged Steel? Nonsense! That can't be possible!

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    There were plenty of people working on raids. They said about 6 people? I doubt that is the truth, unless you think all of those 6 people are able to create sound, models, environment, boss mechanics, spell designs, etc. I mean, Maclaine Diemer would have been part of the team, since some of the Boss music like Gorseval was made by him (and his team). So only 5 left, right?
    So yeah, it does pose several interesting hypothethicals:
    Were the 6 people mentioned really all that were involved in raids? Or did they also allocate dev time of sound, models etc. teams into raid content, but didn't count them as active developers for that specific content?

    I was by amount of content released and time between releases. I don't even have to get into the official mentioned developer numbers because the amount of content released speaks for itsself.

    >
    Oh? A game that isn't focused on raiding, where it is a niche content, has a high waiting time between releases? And that time gets even longer after the developers notice a large amount of players don't play that content? Color me impressed!
    It would still be fun to know how many devs were actually part of raid development, instead of that number "6" I've somewhere heard about.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    How many people are actually in those OW content teams, if you remove everyone that is doing sounds, modeling etc.?

    Pride is such a frivolous thing sometimes, always getting in the way. I wonder who the clueless one is?
    But that's over anyways. This harvest is over, and the raid crops aren't looking good.
    I wonder, will the next harvest fare any better? Will the farmers and the workers on the field learn?

    Yes, and know it all sideliners who have no experience with the content giving their 2 cents is just as useful now as it was years ago.

    Here is a suggestions:
    Start playing this content. Get good enough to train others. Train others and then get back here and make the same claims. Very unlikely you would because you'd actually understand WHY easy mode raids would not have worked.

    I have played the content in the past, not the first time you gave me similiar advice. Do you know what that made me do? It strengthened my stance on not playing said content again. Nice going there, keeping me away from the content! You must be proud of yourself. You've even burned the fields behind you.

    So no, I'm not following a suggestion of someone who is actively destroying his own gamemode by driving players away with his behaviour because his pride gets in the way. I'd rather play content that I deem fun and isn't full of people trying to force their opinion on others, instead of actually understanding the reasoning why those players aren't playing that content.

    You've done a good job ruining the farm, I will not plant my seeds anywhere close. No good can come when farmers misuse their fields.
    Call me a sideliner all you want, but I can still see the crop you harvested. It doesn't look healthy, maybe you've used too much pesticide?

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    That depends. The core of the issue was never "open world vs. instanced" content but "easy vs. hard" content. Most people are not going to care that much if e.g. the next expansion instead of open world is focusing more on instanced content as long as the content itself is as difficult / rewarding as you would expect from an OW map.

    I would disagree. While the current "regular" open world releases are on time. Past vocal forum presence has shown that delay of new open world content was never met with eagerness or approval.

    On top of which there is a strong aversion to instanced content in a large open world part of the community, at least from those active on the forums.

    I'd also assume that delays in new content releases would also have an effect on the revenue generated from returning players and the gem store for those story beats. Which has been cycling and offering more and more items lately to obviously increase revenue.

    Again, it's not about "open world" but about content actually aimed at the more general casual audience which in this game currently only exists in the form of open world and story content (which has a lot of instanced content but with little to no replay value), both of which are played by the majority of the playerbase. You're vastly overestimating how much the average casual cares about the content being "open world", people are going to be happy as long as they feel like the release fits the scope of a LW episode with content that is engaging while also offering some replay value.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    snip

    Let me translate your last post because they are getting lengthy:
    I have spent the last few years doing nearly nothing as far as the content I am giving advice on. The one or two times I have set foot in it I did not enjoy it. I am unable to see the failure in myself, as such it has to be due to other reasons, one being lack of easy mode raids. I will berate and lecture an active player of said content who has spent years with both new and veteran players alike, both training himself and others, knowing better than him.

    That's you in a nutshell.

    If any one has kept you from this contnet, it was hardly me. Maybe someone else, maybe you yourself. I wouldn't know, I wasn't there. All I can say is: if you were this inexperienced yet this vocal in one of my training runs, yes I would most certainly have removed you. There is only so much clueless bs one can take and it's harmful to other players in a training. But given I have never raided with you, I have no idea why others might not have wanted you around. Not my issue.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    That depends. The core of the issue was never "open world vs. instanced" content but "easy vs. hard" content. Most people are not going to care that much if e.g. the next expansion instead of open world is focusing more on instanced content as long as the content itself is as difficult / rewarding as you would expect from an OW map.

    I would disagree. While the current "regular" open world releases are on time. Past vocal forum presence has shown that delay of new open world content was never met with eagerness or approval.

    On top of which there is a strong aversion to instanced content in a large open world part of the community, at least from those active on the forums.

    I'd also assume that delays in new content releases would also have an effect on the revenue generated from returning players and the gem store for those story beats. Which has been cycling and offering more and more items lately to obviously increase revenue.

    Again, it's not about "open world" but about content actually aimed at the more general casual audience which in this game currently only exists in the form of open world and story content (which has a lot of instanced content but with little to no replay value), both of which are played by the majority of the playerbase. You're vastly overestimating how much the average casual cares about the content being "open world", people are going to be happy as long as they feel like the release fits the scope of a LW episode with content that is engaging while also offering some replay value.

    Want me to link to the by now merged threads about the Strike mission being the first step of the Visions story episode?

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    snip

    Let me translate your last post because they are getting lengthy:
    I have spent the last few years doing nearly nothing as far as the content I am giving advice on. The one or two times I have swt foot in it I did not enjoy it. I am unable to see the failure in myself, as such it has to be due to other reasons, one being lack of easy mode raids. I will berate and lecture an active player of said content who has spent years with both new and veteran players alike, both trainigmng himself and others, knowing better than him.

    That's you in a nutshell.

    Kay, now let me do the same for you:
    I rather ruin my own gamemode by not listening to differing opinions, than give up my pride. I'll continue walking the same path until everything relating to my content burns to the grounds, instead of seeing the mistakes I've done.
    I will berate and lecture anyone that doesn't belong to my echo chamber. I will not listen to anyone outside of my echo chamber, it doesn't matter if their opinion is valid, since they're an outsider, no matter if they're new or a veteran player. Others just can't be right, my opinion is all that matters.

    It would still interest me to which "failure" you're alluding, though. I've set foot plenty of times into W1-3, and never failed to kill the bosses. The only failure I see is how disappointing parts of the raiding community turned out and how berating they've become.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    snip

    Let me translate your last post because they are getting lengthy:
    I have spent the last few years doing nearly nothing as far as the content I am giving advice on. The one or two times I have swt foot in it I did not enjoy it. I am unable to see the failure in myself, as such it has to be due to other reasons, one being lack of easy mode raids. I will berate and lecture an active player of said content who has spent years with both new and veteran players alike, both trainigmng himself and others, knowing better than him.

    That's you in a nutshell.

    Kay, now let me do the same for you:
    I rather ruin my own gamemode by not listening to differing opinions, than give up my pride. I'll continue walking the same path until everything relating to my content burns to the grounds, instead of seeing the mistakes I've done.
    I will berate and lecture anyone that doesn't belong to my echo chamber. I will not listen to anyone outside of my echo chamber, it doesn't matter if their opinion is valid, since they're an outsider, no matter if they're new or a veteran player. Others just can't be right, my opinion is all that matters.

    Here is the difference though:
    My arguments and assumptions are based on experience, yours are not. Maybe you'll be able to spot the difference. I have explained why easy mode raids would not have been a solution. Even with hindsight it is clear they would not have been (unless factors like more resources for the mode were given, which they were not). On the contrary, strikes have clearly shown that easy mode raids would not have helped.

    The reasons for the failing of raids are many, most of which can likely be attributed to the lack of content. This is not raids unique in this game and can be seen accross game modes and release cycles.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    It would still interest me to which "failure" you're alluding, though. I've set foot plenty of times into W1-3, and never failed to kill the bosses. The only failure I see is how disappointing parts of the raiding community turned out and how berating they've become.

    Where did I mention you failing? I refered to what you said. If you consider running W1-3 a success, more power to you.

    The other part I eluded to was your very opinionated stance on an issue you are clearly inexperienced on. Going further and assuming that if this behavior was a commom occurance for you, I would not have wanted you around in any of my squads.

    If this was never an issue for you, great. Means I missread this and you obviously have not had this problem with others.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    That depends. The core of the issue was never "open world vs. instanced" content but "easy vs. hard" content. Most people are not going to care that much if e.g. the next expansion instead of open world is focusing more on instanced content as long as the content itself is as difficult / rewarding as you would expect from an OW map.

    I would disagree. While the current "regular" open world releases are on time. Past vocal forum presence has shown that delay of new open world content was never met with eagerness or approval.

    On top of which there is a strong aversion to instanced content in a large open world part of the community, at least from those active on the forums.

    I'd also assume that delays in new content releases would also have an effect on the revenue generated from returning players and the gem store for those story beats. Which has been cycling and offering more and more items lately to obviously increase revenue.

    Again, it's not about "open world" but about content actually aimed at the more general casual audience which in this game currently only exists in the form of open world and story content (which has a lot of instanced content but with little to no replay value), both of which are played by the majority of the playerbase. You're vastly overestimating how much the average casual cares about the content being "open world", people are going to be happy as long as they feel like the release fits the scope of a LW episode with content that is engaging while also offering some replay value.

    Want me to link to the by now merged threads about the Strike mission being the first step of the Visions story episode?

    Your point? As I said earlier neither strike missions nor Forging Steel are at a difficulty level the average casual players are compatible with which means that all complains levied against them are irrelevant for the argument at hand.

    But on the other hand I do remember casuals in HoT complaining about missing out on story for it being "locked behind meta events" because the open world content was perceived to be harder as the otherwise instanced story missions showing that if anything the actual issue here is the difficulty (even if it's in some cases just perceived), like I was saying.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    That depends. The core of the issue was never "open world vs. instanced" content but "easy vs. hard" content. Most people are not going to care that much if e.g. the next expansion instead of open world is focusing more on instanced content as long as the content itself is as difficult / rewarding as you would expect from an OW map.

    I would disagree. While the current "regular" open world releases are on time. Past vocal forum presence has shown that delay of new open world content was never met with eagerness or approval.

    On top of which there is a strong aversion to instanced content in a large open world part of the community, at least from those active on the forums.

    I'd also assume that delays in new content releases would also have an effect on the revenue generated from returning players and the gem store for those story beats. Which has been cycling and offering more and more items lately to obviously increase revenue.

    Again, it's not about "open world" but about content actually aimed at the more general casual audience which in this game currently only exists in the form of open world and story content (which has a lot of instanced content but with little to no replay value), both of which are played by the majority of the playerbase. You're vastly overestimating how much the average casual cares about the content being "open world", people are going to be happy as long as they feel like the release fits the scope of a LW episode with content that is engaging while also offering some replay value.

    Want me to link to the by now merged threads about the Strike mission being the first step of the Visions story episode?

    Your point? As I said earlier neither strike missions nor Forging Steel are at a difficulty level the average casual players are compatible with which means that all complains levied against them are irrelevant for the argument at hand.

    But on the other hand I do remember casuals in HoT complaining about missing out on story for it being "locked behind meta events" because the open world content is perceived to be harder as the otherwise instanced story missions showing that if anything the actual issue here is the difficulty (even if it's in some cases just perceived), like I was saying.

    My point is: there were complaints about the story requiring instanced content even before players tried the content.

    Most did not even know Forging Steel could be soloed or scaled down to 1 player. The aversion to have to group was huge.

    Pair that with the huge distaste with having to do "easy" instanced content for meta rewards, and it paints a very clear picture. No?

    I don't recall people complaining about missing story in HoT due to metas. I do recall a lot of players complaining about the overall difficulty (especially with later story steps), which lead to 2 subsequent nerfs and massive reworks of the HoT open world areas, delaying the next episodes of story by months. Which also lead to complaints.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    snip

    Let me translate your last post because they are getting lengthy:
    I have spent the last few years doing nearly nothing as far as the content I am giving advice on. The one or two times I have swt foot in it I did not enjoy it. I am unable to see the failure in myself, as such it has to be due to other reasons, one being lack of easy mode raids. I will berate and lecture an active player of said content who has spent years with both new and veteran players alike, both trainigmng himself and others, knowing better than him.

    That's you in a nutshell.

    Kay, now let me do the same for you:
    I rather ruin my own gamemode by not listening to differing opinions, than give up my pride. I'll continue walking the same path until everything relating to my content burns to the grounds, instead of seeing the mistakes I've done.
    I will berate and lecture anyone that doesn't belong to my echo chamber. I will not listen to anyone outside of my echo chamber, it doesn't matter if their opinion is valid, since they're an outsider, no matter if they're new or a veteran player. Others just can't be right, my opinion is all that matters.

    Here is the difference though:
    My arguments and assumptions are based on experience, yours are not. Maybe you'll be able to spot the difference. I have explained why easy mode raids would not have been a solution. Even with hindsight it is clear they would not have been (unless factors like more resources for the mode were given, which they were not). On the contrary, strikes have clearly shown that easy mode raids would not have helped.

    The reasons for the failing of raids are many, most of which can likely be atteibuted tohe lack of content. Thisbisbnot raks unique in this game and can be seen accross game modes and time frames.

    Only things I've heard so far from you are opinions that are based solely on having raided.
    Your experience in raiding doesn't help when trying to find out why people that haven't raided before aren't taking steps into raids.
    You're arguing as someone that is a raider and only listing reasons of the decline inside the raid community.
    Lack of content is a reason for decline, but why did it start declining? That's what I'm arguing, the gamemode is not attractive to a large amount of players.

    You don't seem to ask yourself why raids have a low population, just how it ended up having a low population and declining.
    You fail to see why SMs and easy modes are different.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    It would still interest me to which "failure" you're alluding, though. I've set foot plenty of times into W1-3, and never failed to kill the bosses. The only failure I see is how disappointing parts of the raiding community turned out and how berating they've become.

    Where did I mention you failing? I refered to what you said. If you consider running W1-3 a success, more power to you.

    The other part I eluded to was your very opinionated stance on an issue you are clearly inexperienced on. Going further and assuming that if this behavior was a commom occurance for you, I would not have wanted you around in any of my squads.

    I mean, running W1-3 succesfully when there was nothing else, so clearing the latest raid + every other wings weekly is something I would certainly call succesfull, unless you only consider speedrunning or something else succesfull. After all, there were no other wings to clear at that time.

    I wouldn't want to join any of your squads, you actively seem to dislike anyone with a different opinion. I mean, you've got a very opinionated stance yourself about issues you clearly don't seem to understand, as you yourself actively played part, and are still continueing to make a gamemode even more undesirable.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    snip

    Let me translate your last post because they are getting lengthy:
    I have spent the last few years doing nearly nothing as far as the content I am giving advice on. The one or two times I have swt foot in it I did not enjoy it. I am unable to see the failure in myself, as such it has to be due to other reasons, one being lack of easy mode raids. I will berate and lecture an active player of said content who has spent years with both new and veteran players alike, both trainigmng himself and others, knowing better than him.

    That's you in a nutshell.

    Kay, now let me do the same for you:
    I rather ruin my own gamemode by not listening to differing opinions, than give up my pride. I'll continue walking the same path until everything relating to my content burns to the grounds, instead of seeing the mistakes I've done.
    I will berate and lecture anyone that doesn't belong to my echo chamber. I will not listen to anyone outside of my echo chamber, it doesn't matter if their opinion is valid, since they're an outsider, no matter if they're new or a veteran player. Others just can't be right, my opinion is all that matters.

    Here is the difference though:
    My arguments and assumptions are based on experience, yours are not. Maybe you'll be able to spot the difference. I have explained why easy mode raids would not have been a solution. Even with hindsight it is clear they would not have been (unless factors like more resources for the mode were given, which they were not). On the contrary, strikes have clearly shown that easy mode raids would not have helped.

    The reasons for the failing of raids are many, most of which can likely be atteibuted tohe lack of content. Thisbisbnot raks unique in this game and can be seen accross game modes and time frames.

    Only things I've heard so far from you are opinions that are based solely on having raided.
    Your experience in raiding doesn't help when trying to find out why people that haven't raided before aren't taking steps into raids.
    You're arguing as someone that is a raider and only listing reasons of the decline inside the raid community.
    Lack of content is a reason for decline, but why did it start declining? That's what I'm arguing, the gamemode is not attractive to a large amount of players.
    You fail to see why SMs and easy modes are different.

    You again forgot the part where I mentioned that I've lead tons of trainings of completely new players all the way from fresh blood beginners to all 7 wings clear veterans (granted, for many it took months).

    I know why SMs do not work for raid prepartion, and i can extrapolate why easy mode raids would not have worked. The main reason being: the actual mechanics behind raids are not the main issue for players having a hard time when they start raiding.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    It would still interest me to which "failure" you're alluding, though. I've set foot plenty of times into W1-3, and never failed to kill the bosses. The only failure I see is how disappointing parts of the raiding community turned out and how berating they've become.

    Where did I mention you failing? I refered to what you said. If you consider running W1-3 a success, more power to you.

    The other part I eluded to was your very opinionated stance on an issue you are clearly inexperienced on. Going further and assuming that if this behavior was a commom occurance for you, I would not have wanted you around in any of my squads.

    I mean, running W1-3 succesfully when there was nothing else, so clearing the latest raid + every other wings weekly is something I would certainly call succesfull, unless you only consider speedrunning or something else succesfull. After all, there were no other wings to clear at that time.

    I wouldn't want to join any of your squads, you actively seem to dislike anyone with a different opinion. I mean, you've got a very opinionated stance yourself about issues you clearly don't seem to understand, as you yourself actively played part, and are still continueing to make a gamemode even more undesirable.

    Well I guess we are then finally in agreement on something: we will never raid or do instanced content together.

    Given you are not interested in this content and have not been an active part of it, except lecturing on the forums, there would be no risk of this anyway.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    snip

    Let me translate your last post because they are getting lengthy:
    I have spent the last few years doing nearly nothing as far as the content I am giving advice on. The one or two times I have swt foot in it I did not enjoy it. I am unable to see the failure in myself, as such it has to be due to other reasons, one being lack of easy mode raids. I will berate and lecture an active player of said content who has spent years with both new and veteran players alike, both trainigmng himself and others, knowing better than him.

    That's you in a nutshell.

    Kay, now let me do the same for you:
    I rather ruin my own gamemode by not listening to differing opinions, than give up my pride. I'll continue walking the same path until everything relating to my content burns to the grounds, instead of seeing the mistakes I've done.
    I will berate and lecture anyone that doesn't belong to my echo chamber. I will not listen to anyone outside of my echo chamber, it doesn't matter if their opinion is valid, since they're an outsider, no matter if they're new or a veteran player. Others just can't be right, my opinion is all that matters.

    Here is the difference though:
    My arguments and assumptions are based on experience, yours are not. Maybe you'll be able to spot the difference. I have explained why easy mode raids would not have been a solution. Even with hindsight it is clear they would not have been (unless factors like more resources for the mode were given, which they were not). On the contrary, strikes have clearly shown that easy mode raids would not have helped.

    The reasons for the failing of raids are many, most of which can likely be atteibuted tohe lack of content. Thisbisbnot raks unique in this game and can be seen accross game modes and time frames.

    Only things I've heard so far from you are opinions that are based solely on having raided.
    Your experience in raiding doesn't help when trying to find out why people that haven't raided before aren't taking steps into raids.
    You're arguing as someone that is a raider and only listing reasons of the decline inside the raid community.
    Lack of content is a reason for decline, but why did it start declining? That's what I'm arguing, the gamemode is not attractive to a large amount of players.
    You fail to see why SMs and easy modes are different.

    You again forgot the part where I mentioned that I've lead tons of trainings of completely new players all the way from fresh blood beginners to all 7 wings clear veterans (granted, for many it took months).

    I know why SMs do not work for raid prepartion, and i can extrapolate why easy mode raids would not have worked. The main reason being: the actual mechanics behind raids are not the main issue for players having a hard time when they start raiding.

    You're still not getting it. This isn't about players that are already willing to raid, they already do the first step to raid.
    This is about why players don't start at all with the current raids. How to get them to raid.

    You can extrapolate all you want, but you're still not asking the people why they don't raid. You know, those sideliners?

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    It would still interest me to which "failure" you're alluding, though. I've set foot plenty of times into W1-3, and never failed to kill the bosses. The only failure I see is how disappointing parts of the raiding community turned out and how berating they've become.

    Where did I mention you failing? I refered to what you said. If you consider running W1-3 a success, more power to you.

    The other part I eluded to was your very opinionated stance on an issue you are clearly inexperienced on. Going further and assuming that if this behavior was a commom occurance for you, I would not have wanted you around in any of my squads.

    I mean, running W1-3 succesfully when there was nothing else, so clearing the latest raid + every other wings weekly is something I would certainly call succesfull, unless you only consider speedrunning or something else succesfull. After all, there were no other wings to clear at that time.

    I wouldn't want to join any of your squads, you actively seem to dislike anyone with a different opinion. I mean, you've got a very opinionated stance yourself about issues you clearly don't seem to understand, as you yourself actively played part, and are still continueing to make a gamemode even more undesirable.

    Well I guess we are then finally in agreement on something: we will never raid or do instanced content together.

    Given you are not interested in this content and have not been an active part of it, except lecturing on the forums, there would be no risk of this anyway.

    We'll surely won't meet in any of the current raids, if Anet doesn't change anything about them.
    Careful now if you ever enter a PUG SM though, I may be there to get the rewards, just like the raven ceremonial gown. But I doubt it, given all the time you spend here arguing with different people.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    I'm not backtracking. The systems aren't needed in T1, but still drive people away because they exist. Same way the term "Raid" drive people away, or how "Corona"-Beer had losses because of the virus. It doesn't matter if the system isn't used in T1, players will still stay away based on perception.

    They exist but aren't even visible, how do they drive people away? Going in circles doesn't help anyone, but you already disproved this so I'll simply move on. The truth of the matter is that content with difficulty tiers, had LESS development than content without them. And as you just said, just like the mechanics of Fractals for some reason drove players away, the word Raids also drove players away, so it's not like difficulty tiers would help much, would they?

    But still, running content that isn't fun just for a high reward is also a reason people don't play content, regardless of how hard or easy said content is.

    That's hardly relevant when comparing the release pace of content with difficulty tiers versus content without them. Remember your original argument was that Raids failed because they didn't have difficulty tiers. You just put a another nail on that argument by saying Raids failed because they were called "Raids".

    Build templates are content and most likely the reason for the Q4 failure. Only because you can't "play" it, it doesn't mean that the devs had to spent plenty of time developing it. It is still content. The whole swiss tournament system is content, even though it is technical.

    Then we'll agree to disagree here. Build Templates is NOT content.

    Going through https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release I'm still wondering where those mystical 6 to 14 months of only OW content are.

    The exact number of months will depend based on what you call "content". I gave the actual time frames since we got anything other than OW content in my first post of this thread, showing the lack of development on anything other than OW in this game. Something that seems to be changing with the latest road map, and hopefully will continue in the next one.

    More content as in content.

    We've been getting the same amount of OW content as we always did. Why do you need MORE of it? Isn't the release cadence of episodes and new maps enough for you? It's everything else that needs more attention and hopefully they will get some love too.

    So yeah, I hope they release more things to enjoy catered towards the majority / things that pay off for Anet, unlike templates and raids, apparently.

    Apparently these "things for the majority" didn't pay off for Anet judging by their latest reports. We'll see if the new, more varied, direction continues to increase revenue or not.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    I'm not backtracking. The systems aren't needed in T1, but still drive people away because they exist. Same way the term "Raid" drive people away, or how "Corona"-Beer had losses because of the virus. It doesn't matter if the system isn't used in T1, players will still stay away based on perception.

    They exist but aren't even visible, how do they drive people away? Going in circles doesn't help anyone, but you already disproved this so I'll simply move on. The truth of the matter is that content with difficulty tiers, had LESS development than content without them. And as you just said, just like the mechanics of Fractals for some reason drove players away, the word Raids also drove players away, so it's not like difficulty tiers would help much, would they?

    Multiple reasons why people are driven away can exist at the same time. The existence of one doesn't nullify another one.
    Difficulty tiers can help more people into certain content, but complicated sounding systems like agony can throw away that benefit.
    How are the systems like agony not even visible? You can clearly see it. It is even integrated into a whole gearset that was created for that reason.

    But still, running content that isn't fun just for a high reward is also a reason people don't play content, regardless of how hard or easy said content is.

    That's hardly relevant when comparing the release pace of content with difficulty tiers versus content without them. Remember your original argument was that Raids failed because they didn't have difficulty tiers. You just put a another nail on that argument by saying Raids failed because they were called "Raids".

    I wasn't the one mentioning the high rewards, they were part of your argument. I just simply comented on that line.
    Like I've said before, multiple reasons can drive people away. I'm not sure why you're pretending that there can only be one reason.
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Build templates are content and most likely the reason for the Q4 failure. Only because you can't "play" it, it doesn't mean that the devs had to spent plenty of time developing it. It is still content. The whole swiss tournament system is content, even though it is technical.

    Then we'll agree to disagree here. Build Templates is NOT content.

    Guess we'll have to. I also consider Swiss and World Restructuring which still hasn't released content.

    Going through https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release I'm still wondering where those mystical 6 to 14 months of only OW content are.

    The exact number of months will depend based on what you call "content". I gave the actual time frames since we got anything other than OW content in my first post of this thread, showing the lack of development on anything other than OW in this game. Something that seems to be changing with the latest road map, and hopefully will continue in the next one.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    More content as in content.

    We've been getting the same amount of OW content as we always did. Why do you need MORE of it? Isn't the release cadence of episodes and new maps enough for you? It's everything else that needs more attention and hopefully they will get some love too.

    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    So yeah, I hope they release more things to enjoy catered towards the majority / things that pay off for Anet, unlike templates and raids, apparently.

    Apparently these "things for the majority" didn't pay off for Anet judging by their latest reports. We'll see if the new, more varied, direction continues to increase revenue or not.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released. I really hope they don't spend too much time on those systems that only benefit those small communities that don't increase revenue.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!