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It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released. I really hope they don't spend too much time on those systems that only benefit those small communities that don't increase revenue.

    Can you please reference the financial quarter you are referring to? Because last I checked, the steep decline of the revenue came pretty much during and after a period where nothing but open world content was released for over 1.5 years and nothing besides open world content was promised for the future (this includes lack of an expansion announcement, which just tanked revenue instead of continuing the steady decline).

    Last fractal release is 1.5 years ago: Siren's Reef (slowing release cadence down to 1 fractal per year, now even slower than that)
    Last raid wing was released 1 year ago: Key of Ahdashim (same as fractals, slowing release cadence down to 1 raid per year)

    We have since seen a continued decline, both in total earnings as well as YoY in earnings with a short recovery rise for Q1 2020, 12.530 billion KRW (approx 10.4 million US $), up by ~10.5% from 11.3 billion KRW (approx 9.38 million US $) in Q4 2019. Down by ~23.4% YoY from 16.3 billion KRW in Q1 2019 (approx 13.5 million US $).

    Also not factored into those numbers for Q4 2019 are build templates. Which are far more likely to see use in a more dedicated crowd who have actual need of multiple build and equipment slots (and going by the threads on who actually uses build templates on the forums, this assumptions holds true). While they might not have sold as well as hoped/expected, they certainly will have affected Q4 of 2019. One dare not even think about what that quarters result would have been without.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    I really hope they don't spend too much time on those systems that only benefit those small communities that don't increase revenue.

    We'll see what the next Road Map will be like, but I believe it will be another inclusive one.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released. I really hope they don't spend too much time on those systems that only benefit those small communities that don't increase revenue.

    Can you please reference the financial quarter you are referring to? Because last I checked, the steep decline of the revenue came pretty much during and after a period where nothing but open world content was released for over 1.5 years and nothing besides open world content was promised for the future (this includes lack of an expansion announcement, which just tanked revenue instead of continuing the steady decline).

    Last fractal release is 1.5 years ago: Siren's Reef (slowing release cadence down to 1 fractal per year, now even slower than that)
    Last raid wing was released 1 year ago: Key of Ahdashim (same as fractals, slowing release cadence down to 1 raid per year)

    We have since seen a continued decline, both in total earnings as well as YoY in earnings with a short recovery rise for Q1 2020, 12.530 billion KRW (approx 10.4 million US $), up by ~10.5% from 11.3 billion KRW (approx 9.38 million US $) in Q4 2019. Down by ~23.4% YoY from 16.3 billion KRW in Q1 2019 (approx 13.5 million US $).

    Also not factored into those numbers for Q4 2019 are build templates. Which are far more likely to see use in a more dedicated crowd who have actual need of multiple build and equipment slots (and going by the threads on who actually uses build templates on the forums, this assumptions holds true). While they might not have sold as well as hoped/expected, they certainly will have affected Q4 of 2019. One dare not even think about what that quarters result would have been without.

    Yeah, I'm talking about Q4 2019, where Anet intended Build templates to be the big money maker. Systems targeted at a small percentage of the playerbase just don't do well.
    Could you show me that "nothing but open world content was released for over 1.5 years" timeframe? I've still yet to see that timeframe.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...
    June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW content
    June 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. Festival
    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content
    ...
    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    I really hope they don't spend too much time on those systems that only benefit those small communities that don't increase revenue.

    We'll see what the next Road Map will be like, but I believe it will be another inclusive one.

    Hyped for the next road map. Bet there will be no raids. Probably Fractal / Festival / LS / maybe Legendary templates?

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • @Raknar.4735 said:
    Yeah, I'm talking about Q4 2019, where Anet intended Build templates to be the big money maker. Systems targeted at a small percentage of the playerbase just don't do well.

    Thats because the system is bad, not because it may or may not be targeted to a small percentage of players.
    Anet took away a working and free option so they could sell a template system (its not even templates) that to this day is a broken mess. My skills on renegade constantly swap places and this week i couldnt really play the game because i couldnt swap any traits on any of my classes. The entire system is broken and overly complicated. Thats why its not the big money makes.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Yeah, I'm talking about Q4 2019, where Anet intended Build templates to be the big money maker. Systems targeted at a small percentage of the playerbase just don't do well.

    Thats because the system is bad, not because it may or may not be targeted to a small percentage of players.
    Anet took away a working and free option so they could sell a template system (its not even templates) that to this day is a broken mess. My skills on renegade constantly swap places and this week i couldnt really play the game because i couldnt swap any traits on any of my classes. The entire system is broken and overly complicated. Thats why its not the big money makes.

    I don't disagree. In fact, I agree completely aside from the "not because..". The system is one, if not the worst system Anet has every created. Especially for revenants.
    It was still primarily intended for players that switch builds regularly and intended to be their big "new and exciting" feature for Q4. The system being bad and simultanously developed for a small percentage of players are both reasons why it didn't sell well.

    I've used Arc myself in the past, and also use the new system. Arc never crashed me only because I had a renegade build. But that still doesn't change the fact that it was intended to replace Arc.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • @Raknar.4735 said:
    It was still primarily intended for players that switch builds regularly and intended to be their big "new and exciting" feature for Q4. The system being bad and simultanously developed for a small percentage of players are both reasons why it didn't sell well.

    If its for players that often switch builds, why am i limited to only 6 equipment slots? I highly doubt anyone even knew what to do with this. I can imagine this being one of the reasons why its such a mess.
    Not talking about traits (they also have issues), because swapping them is super easy and was never annoying to me. I didnt need it with arc, it was just nice to have.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...
    June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW content
    June 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. Festival
    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content
    ...
    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released. All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:
    They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this or are you going to tell me this legendary armory is aimed at players with no legendaries?

    Once again proving that monetization and revenue has to come out of the niche groups and when they refuse to cough up the money, the financial stream suffers.

    No reason to worry though, as time moves on and more and more players from those niche groups leave, of those who have not yet left, the effect will be more evident. Let's hope the game sustains its self with only a casual crowd, because if not....

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    It was still primarily intended for players that switch builds regularly and intended to be their big "new and exciting" feature for Q4. The system being bad and simultanously developed for a small percentage of players are both reasons why it didn't sell well.

    If its for players that often switch builds, why am i limited to only 6 equipment slots? I highly doubt anyone even knew what to do with this. I can imagine this being one of the reasons why its such a mess.
    Not talking about traits (they also have issues), because swapping them is super easy and was never annoying to me. I didnt need it with arc, it was just nice to have.

    Can't give you an official answer there, since Anet didn't say anything about that.
    My guess? Because Anet didn't think it through enough.
    Maybe they are capped because of their Database, similiar to how we can only have a certain amount of bag/bank tabs until we're capped. But we won't know until Anet talks about that limitation.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...
    June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW content
    June 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. Festival
    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content
    ...
    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released. All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.
    I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.

    I mean, I could easily say we haven't gotten content targeted at any of the more dedicated OW players, since Triple Trouble was the last release, but that's just painting the world how you want to see it. Completely subjective metrics.

    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.
    Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:
    They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...
    June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW content
    June 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. Festival
    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content
    ...
    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released. All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.
    I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.
    Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    You can do as many mental gymnastics as you want. Fact remains: dedicated players of WvW, Spvp and pve challenging content have not seen content releases and are also not likely to see any.

    The fact you count Strike Missions as not for weaker players shows how out of touch you are with players from those niche modes (at least for pve). Pretty much every more dedicated raider I know laughs at strikes. Most have left the game by now too.

    As for the remainder, fine, let's not count it as content for any player group. Still does not change the fact that niche players have not seen any content as mentioned by me in 1-1.5 years with none on the horizon. So many just move on to another game, and with them their money.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:
    They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    Well then the developers failed miserably. The fact they are trying to "fix" the system with legendary armory though shows that they have hope to generate revenue from these niche groups. Why else would they even bother?

    Simple, because that's where the money is.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...
    June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW content
    June 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. Festival
    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content
    ...
    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released. All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.
    I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.
    Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    You can do as mental gymnastics as you want. Fact remains: dedicated players of WvW, Spvp and pve challenging content have not seen content releases and are also not likely to see any.

    The fact you count Strike Missions as not for weaker players shows how out of touch you are with players from those niche modes. Pretty much every more dedicated raider I know laughs at strikes.

    As for the remainder, fine, let's not count it as content for any player group. still does not change the fact that niche players have not seen any content as mentioned by me in 1-1.5 years with none on the horizon.

    Yeah, I can do as many mental gymnastics as I want, you'd still beat me to the medal. Pretending that content doesn't exist because of your subjective metrics doesn't make it true.
    You didn't define weaker players. Weaker than raiders in raid content? Obviously. That's what they're there for. To bridge content, to get players to play raids. So yeah, they are intended for players that aren't dedicated raiders, or do you think you can use gamemodes that are harder than raids, to get people into raiding? They would just laugh at raids!

    Ah yes, you can not count content all you want, but it will still not disappear. The content still exists. You can pretend all you want, but your 1-1.5 years still doesn't exist. And your new "none on the horizon" is also untrue, since a new fractal was already announced.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:
    They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    Well then the developers failed miserably. The fact they are trying to "fix" the system with legendary armory though shows that they have hope to generate revenue from these niche groups. Why else would they even bother?

    Simple, because that's where the money is.

    Of course they failed, the designated group didn't buy it. Anets fault for trying to sell a system that was desired by a niche group, but didn't plan it out, so it ended up being bought by pretty much noone.

    I'm pretty positive the legendary armory is something in preparation for Cantha, but that's just an opinion. If not, then good luck Anet.

    Also, if we're using your logic here, and developing content depends on the current things being developed that could generate revenue, as in legendary armory, doesn't that mean that dedicated raiders didn't bring in in "the money"?
    After all, raids aren't really developed anymore. LS is still being developed though, so are SMs and Fractals. PvP and WvW also sometimes get balance patches, sets and mounts + skins here and there.
    Guess I'll agree with you and Anet then! Don't bother developing content like raids where you can't hope for revenue!

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...
    June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW content
    June 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. Festival
    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content
    ...
    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released. All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.
    I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.
    Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    You can do as mental gymnastics as you want. Fact remains: dedicated players of WvW, Spvp and pve challenging content have not seen content releases and are also not likely to see any.

    The fact you count Strike Missions as not for weaker players shows how out of touch you are with players from those niche modes. Pretty much every more dedicated raider I know laughs at strikes.

    As for the remainder, fine, let's not count it as content for any player group. still does not change the fact that niche players have not seen any content as mentioned by me in 1-1.5 years with none on the horizon.

    Yeah, I can do as many mental gymnastics as I want, you'd still beat me to the medal. Pretending that content doesn't exist because of your subjective metrics doesn't make it true.
    You didn't define weaker players. Weaker than raiders in raid content? Obviously. That's what they're there for. To bridge content, to get players to play raids. So yeah, they are intended for players that aren't dedicated raiders, or do you think you can use gamemodes that are harder than raids, to get people into raiding? They would just laugh at raids!

    Ah yes, you can not count content all you want, but it will still not disappear. The content still exists. You can pretend all you want, but your 1-1.5 years still doesn't exist. And your new "none on the horizon" is also untrue, since a new fractal was already announced.

    So we agree, the new fractal will release hopefully before the 2 year mark is reached.
    There are no new raids on the horizon and the last one is by now beyond 1 year ago with very slow releases over the 2 years before.
    Strikes are not aimed at hardcore pve players.

    So overall there is no content for the niche hardcore pve crowd and none on the horizon. So yes, that crowd has moved on. Hence the decline in revenue.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:
    They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    Well then the developers failed miserably. The fact they are trying to "fix" the system with legendary armory though shows that they have hope to generate revenue from these niche groups. Why else would they even bother?

    Simple, because that's where the money is.

    Of course they failed, the designated group didn't buy it. Anets fault for trying to sell a system that was desired by a niche group, but didn't plan it out, so it ended up being bought by pretty much noone.

    I'm pretty positive the legendary armory is something in preparation for Cantha, but that's just an opinion. If not, then good luck Anet.

    Also, if we're using your logic here, and developing content depends on the current things being developed that could generate revenue, as in legendary armory, doesn't that mean that dedicated raiders didn't bring in in "the money"? After all, raids aren't really developed anymore. LS is still being developed though, so are SMs and Fractals. PvP and WvW also sometimes get balance patches, sets and mounts + skins here and there. Guess I'll agree with you then!

    To be very accurate, NOTHING was being developed toward the end of season 4. There are official statements that clearly state that the devs did not know if there was going to be any content beyond season 4.

    The moment where the decision was made to continue supporting GW2, raids and challenging instanced pve content were already hit with player decline due to a slow release cadence. Dropping raids after made sense when only having a skeleton crew.

    Yes, Living Story is still being developed. Let's see for how long. My guess is: hopefully until the next expansion which again hopefully will bring a lot of hardcore players back. If not, there will never be a LW season 6. Don't worry though, you can come back and quote me on that when it happens.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...
    June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW content
    June 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. Festival
    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content
    ...
    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released. All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.
    I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.
    Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    You can do as mental gymnastics as you want. Fact remains: dedicated players of WvW, Spvp and pve challenging content have not seen content releases and are also not likely to see any.

    The fact you count Strike Missions as not for weaker players shows how out of touch you are with players from those niche modes. Pretty much every more dedicated raider I know laughs at strikes.

    As for the remainder, fine, let's not count it as content for any player group. still does not change the fact that niche players have not seen any content as mentioned by me in 1-1.5 years with none on the horizon.

    Yeah, I can do as many mental gymnastics as I want, you'd still beat me to the medal. Pretending that content doesn't exist because of your subjective metrics doesn't make it true.
    You didn't define weaker players. Weaker than raiders in raid content? Obviously. That's what they're there for. To bridge content, to get players to play raids. So yeah, they are intended for players that aren't dedicated raiders, or do you think you can use gamemodes that are harder than raids, to get people into raiding? They would just laugh at raids!

    Ah yes, you can not count content all you want, but it will still not disappear. The content still exists. You can pretend all you want, but your 1-1.5 years still doesn't exist. And your new "none on the horizon" is also untrue, since a new fractal was already announced.

    So we agree, the new fractal will release hopefully before the 2 year mark is reached.
    There are no new raids on the horizon and the last one is by now beyond 1 year ago with very slow releases over the 2 years before.
    Strikes are not aimed at hardcore pve players.

    So overall there is no content for the niche hardcore pve crowd and none on the horizon. So yes, that crowd has moved on. Hence the decline in revenue.

    But that goes against your reasoning from earlier! The content that gets developed is the one that brings revenue after all!

    I mean it's pretty obvious why there's no new raids on the horizon. No revenue.
    Of course SMs aren't aimed at "hardcore" pve players, they are there as a bridge, like Anet stated.

    I doubt the niche "hardcore" raid crowd was ever responsible for a lot of revenue, hence the decline of raids.

    The true hardcore people that spent every dollar they have on the game? Maybe. But people that define themselves as "hardcore" because they raid? Doubt it.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:
    They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    Well then the developers failed miserably. The fact they are trying to "fix" the system with legendary armory though shows that they have hope to generate revenue from these niche groups. Why else would they even bother?

    Simple, because that's where the money is.

    Of course they failed, the designated group didn't buy it. Anets fault for trying to sell a system that was desired by a niche group, but didn't plan it out, so it ended up being bought by pretty much noone.

    I'm pretty positive the legendary armory is something in preparation for Cantha, but that's just an opinion. If not, then good luck Anet.

    Also, if we're using your logic here, and developing content depends on the current things being developed that could generate revenue, as in legendary armory, doesn't that mean that dedicated raiders didn't bring in in "the money"? After all, raids aren't really developed anymore. LS is still being developed though, so are SMs and Fractals. PvP and WvW also sometimes get balance patches, sets and mounts + skins here and there. Guess I'll agree with you then!

    To be very accurate, NOTHING was being developed toward the end of season 4. There are official statements that clearly state that the devs did not know if there was going to be any content beyond season 4.

    The moment where the decision was made to continue supporting GW2, raids and challenging instanced pve content were already hit with player decline due to a slow release cadence. Dropping raids after made sense when only having a skeleton crew.

    Yes, Living Story is still being developed. Let's see for how long. My guess is: hopefully until the next expansion which again hopefully will bring a lot of hardcore players back. If not, there will never be a LW season 6. Don't worry though, you can come back and quote me on that when it happens.

    Do you mean the official statements from JP? Heh. Can't call them official, if she isn't part of it anymore, can we?
    Slow release cadence was due to already low playersize and revenue, so it made sense to drop raids.

    Thinking hardcore players are the reason for high revenues is laughable. It's not even true for most mobile games, where the whales beat the hardcore players by a lot when it comes to revenue. Also, can you truly be hardcore when you leave? That's pretty casual, just like being a 1day/week tourist is pretty casual.
    The game is 8 years old, if it breaks down, it won't be due to some players leaving that are full of themselves, calling themselves hardcore, when they're casuals at heart ;)

    So, if it breaks down, should I tell people that GW2 died because of 1day/week tourists, or should I just tell them the truth? I mean, it probably still has a good 2-3 years of life expectancy with Cantha being developed, unless they just drop Cantha because NCSOFT has different plans with Anet. I also don't see any good MMORPG releases on the horizon, we're still stuck with the good ol' WoW, FFXIV, RS, ESO, GW2, BDO.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...
    June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW content
    June 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. Festival
    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content
    ...
    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released. All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.
    I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.
    Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    You can do as mental gymnastics as you want. Fact remains: dedicated players of WvW, Spvp and pve challenging content have not seen content releases and are also not likely to see any.

    The fact you count Strike Missions as not for weaker players shows how out of touch you are with players from those niche modes. Pretty much every more dedicated raider I know laughs at strikes.

    As for the remainder, fine, let's not count it as content for any player group. still does not change the fact that niche players have not seen any content as mentioned by me in 1-1.5 years with none on the horizon.

    Yeah, I can do as many mental gymnastics as I want, you'd still beat me to the medal. Pretending that content doesn't exist because of your subjective metrics doesn't make it true.
    You didn't define weaker players. Weaker than raiders in raid content? Obviously. That's what they're there for. To bridge content, to get players to play raids. So yeah, they are intended for players that aren't dedicated raiders, or do you think you can use gamemodes that are harder than raids, to get people into raiding? They would just laugh at raids!

    Ah yes, you can not count content all you want, but it will still not disappear. The content still exists. You can pretend all you want, but your 1-1.5 years still doesn't exist. And your new "none on the horizon" is also untrue, since a new fractal was already announced.

    So we agree, the new fractal will release hopefully before the 2 year mark is reached.
    There are no new raids on the horizon and the last one is by now beyond 1 year ago with very slow releases over the 2 years before.
    Strikes are not aimed at hardcore pve players.

    So overall there is no content for the niche hardcore pve crowd and none on the horizon. So yes, that crowd has moved on. Hence the decline in revenue.

    But that goes against your reasoning from earlier! The content that gets developed is the one that brings revenue after all!

    I mean it's pretty obvious why there's no new raids on the horizon. No revenue.

    I explained what lead to the decline of raids.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Of course SMs aren't aimed at "hardcore" pve players, they are there as a bridge, like Anet stated.

    I doubt the niche "hardcore" raid crowd was ever responsible for a lot of revenue, hence the decline of raids.

    Your doubt is not reflected in the revenue numbers. So far while while only providing non niche content has seen the games revenue on a constant decline (see, I specifically did not call it open world content).

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The true hardcore people that spent every dollar they have on the game? Maybe. But people that define themselves as "hardcore" because they raid? Doubt it.

    No, there are hardcore players who do not raid. I do not question that. Question is, how big is the fraction of dedicated players that do raid or participate in niche content, who likely get bored on the "easy" stuff and when not provided continued content.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:
    They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    Well then the developers failed miserably. The fact they are trying to "fix" the system with legendary armory though shows that they have hope to generate revenue from these niche groups. Why else would they even bother?

    Simple, because that's where the money is.

    Of course they failed, the designated group didn't buy it. Anets fault for trying to sell a system that was desired by a niche group, but didn't plan it out, so it ended up being bought by pretty much noone.

    I'm pretty positive the legendary armory is something in preparation for Cantha, but that's just an opinion. If not, then good luck Anet.

    Also, if we're using your logic here, and developing content depends on the current things being developed that could generate revenue, as in legendary armory, doesn't that mean that dedicated raiders didn't bring in in "the money"? After all, raids aren't really developed anymore. LS is still being developed though, so are SMs and Fractals. PvP and WvW also sometimes get balance patches, sets and mounts + skins here and there. Guess I'll agree with you then!

    To be very accurate, NOTHING was being developed toward the end of season 4. There are official statements that clearly state that the devs did not know if there was going to be any content beyond season 4.

    The moment where the decision was made to continue supporting GW2, raids and challenging instanced pve content were already hit with player decline due to a slow release cadence. Dropping raids after made sense when only having a skeleton crew.

    Yes, Living Story is still being developed. Let's see for how long. My guess is: hopefully until the next expansion which again hopefully will bring a lot of hardcore players back. If not, there will never be a LW season 6. Don't worry though, you can come back and quote me on that when it happens.

    Do you mean the official statements from JP? Heh. Can't call them official, if she isn't part of it anymore, can we?

    No, I am also referring to how season 4 was designed as a closure to the entire story. Unlike previous arcs, it had no teaser. It was designed as closure to the story line. Some time during Episode 3 or 4, the decision was made to continue. This was further facilitated when NCSoft stepped in and had the layoffs.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Slow release cadence was due to already low playersize and revenue, so it made sense to drop raids.
    Thinking hardcore players are the reason for high revenues is laughable. It's not even true for most mobile games, where the whales beat the hardcore players by a lot when it comes to revenue. Also, can you truly be hardcore when you leave? That's pretty casual, just like being a 1day/week tourist is pretty casual.
    The game is 8 years old, if it breaks down, it won't be due to some players leaving that are full of themselves, calling themselves hardcore, when they're casuals at heart ;)
    So, if it breaks down, should I tell people that GW2 died because of 1day/week tourists, or should I just tell them the truth? I mean, it probably still has a good 2-3 years of life expectancy with Cantha being developed, unless they just drop Cantha because NCSOFT has different plans with Anet. I also don't see any good MMORPG releases on the horizon, we're still stuck with the good ol' WoW, FFXIV, RS, ESO, GW2, BDO.

    Tell yourself what you want. When part of the dedicated crowd goes, so does the money. I honestly don't care how you rationalize it. The revenue numbers over the next few quarters will paint a very clear picture. Hey for all I care it be wonderful if the game sees a sharp increase in revenue by only providing Living World and easy content. It will allow me to return some times in the future. Personally I doubt it, but I am open to surprises.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.
    Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...
    June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW content
    June 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. Festival
    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content
    ...
    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released. All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.
    I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.
    Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    You can do as mental gymnastics as you want. Fact remains: dedicated players of WvW, Spvp and pve challenging content have not seen content releases and are also not likely to see any.

    The fact you count Strike Missions as not for weaker players shows how out of touch you are with players from those niche modes. Pretty much every more dedicated raider I know laughs at strikes.

    As for the remainder, fine, let's not count it as content for any player group. still does not change the fact that niche players have not seen any content as mentioned by me in 1-1.5 years with none on the horizon.

    Yeah, I can do as many mental gymnastics as I want, you'd still beat me to the medal. Pretending that content doesn't exist because of your subjective metrics doesn't make it true.
    You didn't define weaker players. Weaker than raiders in raid content? Obviously. That's what they're there for. To bridge content, to get players to play raids. So yeah, they are intended for players that aren't dedicated raiders, or do you think you can use gamemodes that are harder than raids, to get people into raiding? They would just laugh at raids!

    Ah yes, you can not count content all you want, but it will still not disappear. The content still exists. You can pretend all you want, but your 1-1.5 years still doesn't exist. And your new "none on the horizon" is also untrue, since a new fractal was already announced.

    So we agree, the new fractal will release hopefully before the 2 year mark is reached.
    There are no new raids on the horizon and the last one is by now beyond 1 year ago with very slow releases over the 2 years before.
    Strikes are not aimed at hardcore pve players.

    So overall there is no content for the niche hardcore pve crowd and none on the horizon. So yes, that crowd has moved on. Hence the decline in revenue.

    But that goes against your reasoning from earlier! The content that gets developed is the one that brings revenue after all!

    I mean it's pretty obvious why there's no new raids on the horizon. No revenue.

    I explained what lead to the decline of raids.

    Your explanation isn't a fact, just an opinion.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Of course SMs aren't aimed at "hardcore" pve players, they are there as a bridge, like Anet stated.

    I doubt the niche "hardcore" raid crowd was ever responsible for a lot of revenue, hence the decline of raids.

    Your doubt is not reflected in the revenue numbers. So far while while only providing non niche content has seen the games revenue on a constant decline (see, I specifically did not call it open world content).

    Normal for a game to decline after time. I could mention the post HoT Quarter Q1 2016, where most releases had to do with raids. Providing niche content didn't work out there. So yes, my doubt is certainly reflected there, and that was pretty much the start of the decline for raids. Man that period hit GW2 hard.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The true hardcore people that spent every dollar they have on the game? Maybe. But people that define themselves as "hardcore" because they raid? Doubt it.

    No, there are hardcore players who do not raid. I do not question that. Question is, how big is the fraction of dedicated players that do raid or participate in niche content, who likely get bored on the "easy" stuff and when not provided continued content.

    I wonder too, and I'd like to compare revenue to the dedicated players that don't raid or participate in niche content, that get bored when only niche stuff releases.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:
    They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    Well then the developers failed miserably. The fact they are trying to "fix" the system with legendary armory though shows that they have hope to generate revenue from these niche groups. Why else would they even bother?

    Simple, because that's where the money is.

    Of course they failed, the designated group didn't buy it. Anets fault for trying to sell a system that was desired by a niche group, but didn't plan it out, so it ended up being bought by pretty much noone.

    I'm pretty positive the legendary armory is something in preparation for Cantha, but that's just an opinion. If not, then good luck Anet.

    Also, if we're using your logic here, and developing content depends on the current things being developed that could generate revenue, as in legendary armory, doesn't that mean that dedicated raiders didn't bring in in "the money"? After all, raids aren't really developed anymore. LS is still being developed though, so are SMs and Fractals. PvP and WvW also sometimes get balance patches, sets and mounts + skins here and there. Guess I'll agree with you then!

    To be very accurate, NOTHING was being developed toward the end of season 4. There are official statements that clearly state that the devs did not know if there was going to be any content beyond season 4.

    The moment where the decision was made to continue supporting GW2, raids and challenging instanced pve content were already hit with player decline due to a slow release cadence. Dropping raids after made sense when only having a skeleton crew.

    Yes, Living Story is still being developed. Let's see for how long. My guess is: hopefully until the next expansion which again hopefully will bring a lot of hardcore players back. If not, there will never be a LW season 6. Don't worry though, you can come back and quote me on that when it happens.

    Do you mean the official statements from JP? Heh. Can't call them official, if she isn't part of it anymore, can we?

    No, I am also referring to how season 4 was designed as a closure to the entire story. Unlike previous arcs, it had no teaser. It was designed as closure to the story line. Some time during Episode 3 or 4, the decision was made to continue. This was further facilitated when NCSoft stepped in and had the layoffs.

    Yeah, you're referring to the JP statements, I'd like to have the link to those statements again btw, I've lost them.
    NCSoft stepped in because the other products that were developed next to GW2 didn't work out. But this has nothing to do with OW or LS content, unless you somehow pretend that other products are OW or LS content like festivals and all types of cosmetics.

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Slow release cadence was due to already low playersize and revenue, so it made sense to drop raids.
    Thinking hardcore players are the reason for high revenues is laughable. It's not even true for most mobile games, where the whales beat the hardcore players by a lot when it comes to revenue. Also, can you truly be hardcore when you leave? That's pretty casual, just like being a 1day/week tourist is pretty casual.
    The game is 8 years old, if it breaks down, it won't be due to some players leaving that are full of themselves, calling themselves hardcore, when they're casuals at heart ;)
    So, if it breaks down, should I tell people that GW2 died because of 1day/week tourists, or should I just tell them the truth? I mean, it probably still has a good 2-3 years of life expectancy with Cantha being developed, unless they just drop Cantha because NCSOFT has different plans with Anet. I also don't see any good MMORPG releases on the horizon, we're still stuck with the good ol' WoW, FFXIV, RS, ESO, GW2, BDO.

    Tell yourself what you want. When part of the dedicated crowd goes, so does the money. I honestly don't care how you rationalize it. The revenue numbers over the next few quarters will paint a very clear picture. Hey for all I care it be wonderful if the game sees a sharp increase in revenue. It will allow me to return some times in the future. Personally I doubt it, but I am open to surprises.

    Part of the dedicated raider crowd. I don't see a reason for the dedicated OW or LS crowd to leave. The only crowd I honestly feel sad for are the WvWers that had it the roughest of all groups. But hey, they can keep their content alive.

    GL on your vacation then. I'll still stay here and enjoy any content that interests me, no matter the gamemode, since the one I don't actually enjoy anymore isn't developed further.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
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  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020
  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You know what kills MMORPGs? A low playerbase when the game **only **caters to a small amount of players.

    No one ever wanted them to only cater to a small audiance. People just wanted a bit more than 3 Bosses every 9 months.

    Not sure about the first part. I‘ve seen plenty of people being vehemently against any type of suggestion that opens up raids to more people, just to save their petty exclusivity. Like I‘ve said earlier, they can now reap what they‘ve sown.
    Second part is natural, many people want more content they enjoy, no matter the content. Having more people play the content makes it more likely that it will get more developement time.

    Ppl were against delaying raids further to make an easy mode, the exact thing we are seeing now.

    What kills raids and fractals is the unhealthy cadense, in 4 months fractals will have gone 2 years without any adition.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You know what kills MMORPGs? A low playerbase when the game **only **caters to a small amount of players.

    No one ever wanted them to only cater to a small audiance. People just wanted a bit more than 3 Bosses every 9 months.

    Not sure about the first part. I‘ve seen plenty of people being vehemently against any type of suggestion that opens up raids to more people, just to save their petty exclusivity. Like I‘ve said earlier, they can now reap what they‘ve sown.
    Second part is natural, many people want more content they enjoy, no matter the content. Having more people play the content makes it more likely that it will get more developement time.

    Ppl were against delaying raids further to make an easy mode, the exact thing we are seeing now.

    What kills raids and fractals is the unhealthy cadense, in 4 months fractals will have gone 2 years without any adition.

    Trying to get a better harvest by planting more crops doesn't work when you're planting the seeds on contaminated soil. Grabbing the problem by the root and replacing the earth would have, but it's already harvest time.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    The one that is about to give up here is me and the one that just won't get it is you. But I will try one last time. You claimed that a reason for the failure of Raids is because they don't have multiple difficulty tiers.
    I stated that content WITH multiple tiers (Fractals) has a much longer content drought than Raids, proving that difficulty tiers didn't really help with releases. That's a proven fact I hope it's not up for dispute. You then gave the argument that there are other things in Fractals that drive people away even though, as you yourself claimed, those things don't apply to the lower tiers of Fractals.

    So let me ask you this, do you really believe that agony and the "other mechanics" of Fractals drive MORE players away from the game than the mechanics of Raids? And the mere fact that Raids were called "Raids" to begin with? Are you trying to convince me that agony drives players so far away that it surpasses the whole mechanics of Raids AND the fact that Raids do not have difficulty tiers? I'm sorry but that's impossible to justify. If you still believe that then good for you, but logic dictates otherwise.
    Both your latest claim is wrong, and your initial claim is wrong.

    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    I already gave you the time frame and you can find it here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    So E-Specs should only be used inside instances as they are not OW content. Got it. Anet should make sure you can't use E-Specs anymore while in the OW. Even though that would be weird since you can't unlock them outside OW (and a side of WVW)

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    The big money maker was the Icebrood Saga, not the build templates. This game still had many releases on the gem store in Q4 2019, as they did in Q3 2019 and before that. And besides that, if they wanted Build Templates to be a money maker and aimed at the minority, they should've given CONTENT for that minority to use those templates on. But all the non-OW content was in a massive drought when they released templates.

    Hyped for the next road map. Bet there will be no raids. Probably Fractal / Festival / LS / maybe Legendary templates?

    I wonder if it will be like the Icebrood saga "reveal", simple "more story and more OW maps" or it will be more inclusive like the previous one.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    The one that is about to give up here is me and the one that just won't get it is you. But I will try one last time. You claimed that a reason for the failure of Raids is because they don't have multiple difficulty tiers.
    I stated that content WITH multiple tiers (Fractals) has a much longer content drought than Raids, proving that difficulty tiers didn't really help with releases. That's a proven fact I hope it's not up for dispute. You then gave the argument that there are other things in Fractals that drive people away even though, as you yourself claimed, those things don't apply to the lower tiers of Fractals.

    So let me ask you this, do you really believe that agony and the "other mechanics" of Fractals drive MORE players away from the game than the mechanics of Raids? And the mere fact that Raids were called "Raids" to begin with? Are you trying to convince me that agony drives players so far away that it surpasses the whole mechanics of Raids AND the fact that Raids do not have difficulty tiers? I'm sorry but that's impossible to justify. If you still believe that then good for you, but logic dictates otherwise.
    Both your latest claim is wrong, and your initial claim is wrong.

    Yeah, I've given up on you. Sorry, I won't bother anymore. I'm not going to explain it again, it's just such a waste of time.

    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    I already gave you the time frame and you can find it here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release

    Nice, that's the link i posted originally for you to show me the time frame, but you still haven't answered me once. Nice going. But it doesn't matter anymore. I've tried to get you to tell me the timeframe where OW content was released exclusively, but you're simply not doing it.
    I don't really care anymore, you've avoided giving a precise timeframe all this time.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    So E-Specs should only be used inside instances as they are not OW content. Got it. Anet should make sure you can't use E-Specs anymore while in the OW. Even though that would be weird since you can't unlock them outside OW (and a side of WVW)

    ???
    You said they're not raid/fractals/pvp content. I've only said they're not required in OW content, because you said they're not required in raid/fractals/pvp.
    You're the one saying E-speccs are only OW content, which wasn't true going by your own logic, since WvW is also able to unlock it. And your logic for some reason means the e-speccs belong to the content that unlocks it, instead of every content that actively uses it.

    I've never said they're not OW content, that was you putting words in my mouth. E-speccs are content for every game mode. But you don't seem to think so.

    I don't even understand your logic here, it's so alien to me how E-speccs aren't raid/fractals/pvp content to you. But you do you. I don't think I will ever get you.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    The big money maker was the Icebrood Saga, not the build templates. This game still had many releases on the gem store in Q4 2019, as they did in Q3 2019 and before that. And besides that, if they wanted Build Templates to be a money maker and aimed at the minority, they should've given CONTENT for that minority to use those templates on. But all the non-OW content was in a massive drought when they released templates.

    Except the Icebrood Saga is free for everyone that logs on. And if you for some reason didn't get them for free, just compare the prices of the IBS and the build templates.
    Can't buy something you've already unlocked, so I doubt it will make a huge amount of money.

    But yeah, sure. Keep believing what you do. OW players ruined your game. Fine. I'm over it and won't try correcting you anymore. The free episodes are the big money maker.

    Hyped for the next road map. Bet there will be no raids. Probably Fractal / Festival / LS / maybe Legendary templates?

    I wonder if it will be like the Icebrood saga "reveal", simple "more story and more OW maps" or it will be more inclusive like the previous one.

    Well, we know for a fact that it won't be raids. I'll just wait and see what Anet does and how it turns out. I've been fine with most releases, since I play every gamemode aside from raids. I just hope Anet spends the money in the right place, so that GW2 can continue even after Cantha.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Yeah, I've given up on you. Sorry, I won't bother anymore. I'm not going to explain it again, it's just such a waste of time.

    So you admit you were wrong after all this time? Good. There is nothing to explain -again-, your explanation was countered and battered already. But if you don't have anything to actually support your argument then it means your argument is flawed. And I will say it again, you are putting way too much emphasis on agony and fail to explain the reality of Fractals having less attention than Raids even though they do have multiple difficulty tiers. You inability to answer my simple question of whether agony (and "other" fractal mechanics) leads more players away than Raid mechanics is pretty telling of your lost cause.

    Nice, that's the link i posted originally for you to show me the time frame, but you still haven't answered me once.

    The answer is in the link and the quote you put in your previous post, it answers your question you can go re-read it if you like. Otherwise @Cyninja.2954 pretty much covered it.

    Here you go again:

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    I hope you won't need to quote it again.

    You said they're not raid/fractals/pvp content.

    Exactly because they aren't?

    Except the Icebrood Saga is free for everyone that logs on. And if you for some reason didn't get them for free, just compare the prices of the IBS and the build templates.
    Can't buy something you've already unlocked, so I doubt it will make a huge amount of money.

    So how did Guild Wars 2 make money after the release of Path of Fire? Everything content wise after Path of Fire has been free, the game supports itself using the gem store, and to have people buying things from the gem store they need people to be playing the game. And people play the game, and then visit the gem store, if they like what the game offers as content. If said content isn't good enough (like what we got in Q4 2019) then it leads to players leaving, leading to less income from the gem store.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Yeah, I've given up on you. Sorry, I won't bother anymore. I'm not going to explain it again, it's just such a waste of time.

    So you admit you were wrong after all this time? Good. There is nothing to explain -again-, your explanation was countered and battered already. But if you don't have anything to actually support your argument then it means your argument is flawed. And I will say it again, you are putting way too much emphasis on agony and fail to explain the reality of Fractals having less attention than Raids even though they do have multiple difficulty tiers. You inability to answer my simple question of whether agony (and "other" fractal mechanics) leads more players away than Raid mechanics is pretty telling of your lost cause.

    I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

    Nice, that's the link i posted originally for you to show me the time frame, but you still haven't answered me once.

    The answer is in the link and the quote you put in your previous post, it answers your question you can go re-read it if you like. Otherwise @Cyninja.2954 pretty much covered it.

    Here you go again:

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)
    Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP map
    Previous non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months ago
    If you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)
    Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    Again, still not the timeframe for "only exclusive OW content" you mentioned at the start. SMs seem to be OW content for you. But w/e. I understand, everything you don't like is just OW content.

    I hope you won't need to quote it again.

    You said they're not raid/fractals/pvp content.

    Exactly because they aren't?

    Heh.
    Good, you win, elite speccs are OW-only content, sure. If you say so. Hope they don't release any with Cantha then, OW content only drives the game's revenue down, after all. No one needs them, they're just OW stuff.

    Except the Icebrood Saga is free for everyone that logs on. And if you for some reason didn't get them for free, just compare the prices of the IBS and the build templates.
    Can't buy something you've already unlocked, so I doubt it will make a huge amount of money.

    So how did Guild Wars 2 make money after the release of Path of Fire? Everything content wise after Path of Fire has been free, the game supports itself using the gem store, and to have people buying things from the gem store they need people to be playing the game. And people play the game, and then visit the gem store, if they like what the game offers as content. If said content isn't good enough (like what we got in Q4 2019) then it leads to players leaving, leading to less income from the gem store.

    Kay, there's actually only free content in GW2 after PoF, got it. You're right. OW literally killed GW2. It's so dead I can't even log in anymore. It died in Q4 2019 because nobody cares about the OW content.

    Are we done yet?

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

    You didn't answer my question, yet. It's not that you cannot explain it to me, because there is nothing to explain. But your admission of defeat does mean you finally are willing to see how content with difficulty tiers had less development than content without them. Better late than never.

    Again, still not the timeframe for "only exclusive OW content" you mentioned at the start. SMs seem to be OW content for you. But w/e. I understand, everything you don't like is just OW content.

    You should re-read that quote if you believe that. It's close to the end of the quote.

    Kay, there's actually only free content in GW2 after PoF, got it.

    Wait... you dispute this? Which content released after PoF did we have to buy? And if you say anything like "gem store skins and outfits" (because I think you say those are content right?) I should remind you that we got plenty of those in Q4 2019, yet you ignored them and said the only "money maker was build templates".

    And please spare me the doom and gloom. It's not about killing the game, it's about seeing a (a rather visible) drop in revenue and then proceeding to make direction changes in the quarter after it. And the director leaving silently during that same quarter. Do note that the amount of revenue the game lost in Q4 2019 is still less than the revenue the game ended up with (lost 4k, ended up with 11k). I'm not gonna say that OW will ever kill GW2, or that it's bad for the game, it's the most widely known and played part of the game. I simply stated in my original post the huge time frames that the rest of the content in the game spent completely neglected by the developers and -ESPECIALLY- in Q4 2019 (and most of Q3 2019). The drop might've been for completely different reasons, but I can speculate given what we have that the neglect did play a role, otherwise, if everything was going well content-wise, they wouldn't have such a road map.

    But we'll know when we get the next road map.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

    You didn't answer my question, yet. It's not that you cannot explain it to me, because there is nothing to explain. But your admission of defeat does mean you finally are willing to see how content with difficulty tiers had less development than content without them. Better late than never.

    Na, I'm not willing to see it that way, since it simply isn't true. But I do admit defeat, there's just no reasoning with you. Calling E-speccs OW only content was the final straw for me, after you've put words countless times into my words, just like you're doing now. It's truly a waste of time to discuss anything further with you.

    Again, still not the timeframe for "only exclusive OW content" you mentioned at the start. SMs seem to be OW content for you. But w/e. I understand, everything you don't like is just OW content.

    You should re-read that quote if you believe that. It's close to the end of the quote.

    And you still didn't answer my question, yet you want me to answer. Another reason why it just isn't of value to discuss anything further.

    Kay, there's actually only free content in GW2 after PoF, got it.

    Wait... you dispute this? Which content released after PoF did we have to buy? And if you say anything like "gem store skins and outfits" (because I think you say those are content right?) I should remind you that we got plenty of those in Q4 2019, yet you ignored them and said the only "money maker was build templates".

    And please spare me the doom and gloom. It's not about killing the game, it's about seeing a (a rather visible) drop in revenue and then proceeding to make direction changes in the quarter after it. And the director leaving silently during that same quarter. Do note that the amount of revenue the game lost in Q4 2019 is still less than the revenue the game ended up with (lost 4k, ended up with 11k). I'm not gonna say that OW will ever kill GW2, or that it's bad for the game, it's the most widely known and played part of the game. I simply stated in my original post the huge time frames that the rest of the content in the game spent completely neglected by the developers and -ESPECIALLY- in Q4 2019 (and most of Q3 2019). The drop might've been for completely different reasons, but I can speculate given what we have that the neglect did play a role, otherwise, if everything was going well content-wise, they wouldn't have such a road map.

    But we'll know when we get the next road map.

    LS isn't actually free content, it is just given out for free when it releases, if you haven't forgotten. Gemstore skins are obviously not free content.

    Doom and gloom is just repeating what Cyninja said. All "hardcore" raiders left. There's no revenue to gain anymore, apparently. And he told me the game will not be around for long anymore, I have to take him by his word. He's an experienced raider after all that knows everything about raid decline and game decline. There's just no niche content left, only OW content.

    This will also be my last response to you, I just can't argue with someone that puts words into my mouth and thinks E-Specc are OW only content. Sorry, but that's just too much for me to handle. I've never seen anyone else make a similiar claim, many people seem to enjoy E-speccs in every gamemode, not only OW (Aside from Balance problems with new mechanics). E-speccs are a big expansion seller because you can use them in every gamemode and because they are part of every gamemode.

    So again, I don't think we can see eye to eye here, our viewpoints are just too different.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Doom and gloom is just repeating what Cyninja said. All "hardcore" raiders left. There's no revenue to gain anymore, apparently. And he told me the game will not be around for long anymore, I have to take him by his word. He's an experienced raider after all that knows everything about raid decline and game decline. There's just no niche content left, only OW content.

    I'm not the person who rejoices with glee and celebrates that other players are deprived of the content which they enjoy. Mind you content which already saw a very tiny fraction of development resources. It takes a special kind of person to celebrate such things. Also yes, I stand by what I said: the game's revenue suffers because players who enjoy niche content are neglected and have been neglected for years.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Doom and gloom is just repeating what Cyninja said. All "hardcore" raiders left. There's no revenue to gain anymore, apparently. And he told me the game will not be around for long anymore, I have to take him by his word. He's an experienced raider after all that knows everything about raid decline and game decline. There's just no niche content left, only OW content.

    I'm not the person who rejoices with glee and celebrates that other players are deprived of the content which they enjoy. Mind you content which already saw a very tiny fraction of development resources. It takes a special kind of person to celebrate such things. Also yes, I stand by what I said: the game's revenue suffers because players who enjoy niche content are neglected and have been neglected for years.

    Lol! I would say you are completely off on all of those statements!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Doom and gloom is just repeating what Cyninja said. All "hardcore" raiders left. There's no revenue to gain anymore, apparently. And he told me the game will not be around for long anymore, I have to take him by his word. He's an experienced raider after all that knows everything about raid decline and game decline. There's just no niche content left, only OW content.

    I'm not the person who rejoices with glee and celebrates that other players are deprived of the content which they enjoy. Mind you content which already saw a very tiny fraction of development resources. It takes a special kind of person to celebrate such things. Also yes, I stand by what I said: the game's revenue suffers because players who enjoy niche content are neglected and have been neglected for years.

    Lol! I would say you are completely off on all of those statements!

    All of them? Care to point out which and how?

    Minimal resources are being used on content unrelated to story and open world things? That's pretty much a given at the very least for instanced pve content since we actually know how big that teams wa. We also know how much content was released. As far as pvp and wvw, yeah the content for those modes speaks for its self.

    Raknar gloating? Just read this thread.

    Hardcore players spending money on the game? I'd argue that more invested players are more likely to spend more money on something. That does not mean players who do not play niche content can't be invested. It simply means that players playing niche content could be more invested.

    Now add all of that together and you get:

    • minimum amount of resources spent
    • to satisfy a niche part of the game
    • saturated with some of the most invested players
    • all of which now has been discontinued

    I'd say that it is be very reasonable that revenue has suffered. You are free to your own interpretation though.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Raknar gloating? Just read this thread.

    My posts are directed at those that destroyed their own content by keeping people away from said content. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
    I don't celebrate it. In fact, I pity the raiders that did welcome a change, but they got brexited by the ones that didn't want change. And that is pretty unfair to those raiders.

    The person I've seen gloating has been you about your raid experience and training. But I guess it takes one to know one.

    Seems you think you know me better. Not the first time either you judged me wrongly. "Extrapolate" all you want, but you've been wrong 3/3 times about me each time we've met on the forums.

    Edit: I've quickly run overflown some old posts, and adding things like this in retrospect is petty,

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If any one has kept you from this contnet, it was hardly me. Maybe someone else, maybe you yourself. I wouldn't know, I wasn't there. All I can say is: if you were this inexperienced yet this vocal in one of my training runs, yes I would most certainly have removed you. There is only so much clueless bs one can take and it's harmful to other players in a training. But given I have never raided with you, I have no idea why others might not have wanted you around. Not my issue.

    tells me enough about your person to never consider playing with you. You're quickly to judge other players and implied others didn't want me, when you know nothing about me. I had a static and we were doing raids just fine, I just got bored and stopped doing raids.
    I pity anyone that has to put up with you. Neither my group, nor I could endure your for a long time. Someone that judges others without any information.
    So good job, you're precisely the reason why some might not even want to try out raids.

    Anyways, this is my last post on this thread. Can't say I've enjoyed interacting with you, again.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:

    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Ironically the developers behind raid wings 4, 5, 6 and 7 seem to have thought differently. After all they created 2 different difficulty levels for every boss encounter in these wings, the normal version and the challenge mode. How they got the idea in their heads that they certainly have the time to do that I will never understand.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The person I've seen gloating has been you about your raid experience and training. But I guess it takes one to know one.

    It's called giving context as to where ones experience comes from. If me having experience with this content and training new players and pointing this out, as to give credence to my opinion, is gloating, sure I was gloating.

    Context and experience is also why I kept recommending you actually play the content you are giving advice on. As it stands right now, you have absolutely no clue how or what it's like as a new players getting into raids, by your own admission. Seems strange to me to give advice and criticize others while lacking that experience.

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:

    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Ironically the developers behind raid wings 4, 5, 6 and 7 seem to have thought differently. After all they created 2 different difficulty levels for every boss encounter in these wings, the normal version and the challenge mode. How they got the idea in their heads that they certainly have the time to do that I will never understand.

    Google the release dates of raids starting with wing 4.

    What you will find is that the release cadence slowed to 1 wing per year, increasing from 1 per 3/4 year.

    It's a perfect example of how additional difficulty has slowed content. Not only that, but adding a challenge mode with 1-time additional rewards, which players can re-run for fun, or completely ingore, hardly splits the community.

    Unlike say an easy mode which would see a split of new raiders training into a potentially ineffective "easy mode" (every one can have their own opinion of how effective this would have been, I have explained why I do not believe this to be useful) and regular mode trainig. That can not be disputed.

    I personally would have gladly accepted no challenge modes in raids if it had meant a faster release cycle for the content.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

    You didn't answer my question, yet. It's not that you cannot explain it to me, because there is nothing to explain. But your admission of defeat does mean you finally are willing to see how content with difficulty tiers had less development than content without them. Better late than never.

    Na, I'm not willing to see it that way, since it simply isn't true.

    You got me confused here. According to this page: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release
    the last Raid (content without difficulty tiers) was released around June 2019
    the last Fractal (content with difficulty tiers) was released around January 2019
    What exactly isn't true? Content WITH difficulty tiers has been abandoned and has less releases than content WITHOUT them. I'm not sure how that "isn't true" because we do have the release schedule.

    And you still didn't answer my question, yet you want me to answer.

    The timeframe is in the part you quoted, you can do the math in months but here I will help, from my first ever post in this thread:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, > given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.
    So it's not only Raids that are suffering, it's almost everything, but last few releases they started turning around.

    From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content, and the Strikes, which I added in my original quote SEPARATELY for a reason, which you always seemed to remove from your own quotes to suit your agenda.

    Edit:

    August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.
    September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.
    October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. Festival
    October 2019 Build templates
    Nobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content

    I include story content into OW, otherwise we got non-OW content with every episode release (since it includes story)
    it's really hard discussing time frames of OW content when you call Shiverpeak Pass non OW content, while that SM is nothing more than a solo story instance
    Also calling Halloween non OW content as well (what's up with that?), and calling Build Templates "content".
    November didn't have 3 SMs, it had 2 because Boneskinner was released in December.
    But even then, I addressed Strike Missions ALREADY

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

    You didn't answer my question, yet. It's not that you cannot explain it to me, because there is nothing to explain. But your admission of defeat does mean you finally are willing to see how content with difficulty tiers had less development than content without them. Better late than never.

    Na, I'm not willing to see it that way, since it simply isn't true.

    You got me confused here. According to this page: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release
    the last Raid (content without difficulty tiers) was released around June 2019
    the last Fractal (content with difficulty tiers) was released around January 2019
    What exactly isn't true? Content WITH difficulty tiers has been abandoned and has less releases than content WITHOUT them. I'm not sure how that "isn't true" because we do have the release schedule.

    And you still didn't answer my question, yet you want me to answer.

    The timeframe is in the part you quoted, you can do the math in months but here I will help, from my first ever post in this thread:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, > given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.
    So it's not only Raids that are suffering, it's almost everything, but last few releases they started turning around.

    From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content, and the Strikes, which I added in my original quote SEPARATELY for a reason, which you always seemed to remove from your own quotes to suit your agenda.

    From what I have seen in this thread anything that aint open world mean to raknar that we got instance content for the niche audience.
    We should be happy for all the strike, story missions aswell since they are 1-10 man content aka not open world.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

    You didn't answer my question, yet. It's not that you cannot explain it to me, because there is nothing to explain. But your admission of defeat does mean you finally are willing to see how content with difficulty tiers had less development than content without them. Better late than never.

    Na, I'm not willing to see it that way, since it simply isn't true.

    You got me confused here. According to this page: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release
    the last Raid (content without difficulty tiers) was released around June 2019
    the last Fractal (content with difficulty tiers) was released around January 2019
    What exactly isn't true? Content WITH difficulty tiers has been abandoned and has less releases than content WITHOUT them. I'm not sure how that "isn't true" because we do have the release schedule.

    And you still didn't answer my question, yet you want me to answer.

    The timeframe is in the part you quoted, you can do the math in months but here I will help, from my first ever post in this thread:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, > given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.
    Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.
    The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.
    So it's not only Raids that are suffering, it's almost everything, but last few releases they started turning around.

    From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content, and the Strikes, which I added in my original quote SEPARATELY for a reason, which you always seemed to remove from your own quotes to suit your agenda.

    From what I have seen in this thread anything that aint open world mean to raknar that we got instance content for the niche audience.
    We should be happy for all the strike, story missions aswell since they are 1-10 man content aka not open world.

    I should've said "we only got OW and story content" instead of "only OW content" because Strike Missions are similar to Story content, if not even less challenging. I doubt Raknar would get that either

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

    So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

    If you really think Anet's "Templates" were targeted at Raiders/high game investment Hardcore crossgame mode players, it probably exposes how clueless you are about the content and it's community more than anything else you've said in this Thread.
    Idk if I met a single hardcore player who is really satisfied with this system and most I know can tolerate it so little (and what it stands for) that they refuse to buy into it completely.

    It was a hardcore system aimed in design at casual players exclusively, while actually being a pretty big slap in the face to hardcore players and the functionality they require (and were used to), that's why it failed - hardly because it was aimed at a "niche" hardcore audience, but like everything else over the last year+, wasn't.

    Expecting players to pay 40€/$ + per character just to get so few slots (storing just a few bits each) it's not even enough to fill all build variants some professions have in a Raid full clear, let alone Fractal build variants, PvP Builds, WvW builds and OW builds etc., clearly the only people who benefitted from this addition over ARC was the casual audience - yet they did not have any motivation to buy any more than the given baseline.

    So rather than gaining anything over the last year +, be it content, new features, updated rewards, anything, Hardcore players actually lost something in that time, that being a properly working and a catering to hardcore needs Template system in ARC.

    If you give players no content, no features, nothing for over a year, and instead take away functionality to replace it by an overly aggressive monetization scheme which only caters to casual players who in turn have no need to invest in it, ofc revenue is going to start plummeting as hardcore players leave and casuals don't have anything to buy.

    Obviously the much accessible OW content and catering only to casual players did not do very well to carry the game looking at the revenue from when that's all that was available.
    And sure, while it's maybe played by the majority, a lot of those players are just playing LW as "waiting lobby for proper content" because that's all that is on offer when many of them would much rather mostly just play their niche(s) of other, more engaging hardcore, content, from Fractals to Raids to PvP to WvW, etc., if there just was anything new an exciting to play there.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The massive revenue drops were due to the lack of varied content. If for 12-14 months releasing exclusively open world content was working and was successful, why the sudden change at the start of 2020, and why did the director that focused on open world exclusively left the company silently. Probably because his latest direction wasn't working. (I know he's been director for a long time)

    Actually, he left around the time of IBS announcement (by the time any news of his leaving surfaced, he was already gone for a few months), so long before Anet could even be sure about any consequences of that development model. As such, i think it was mostly coincidental, and more tied to the general trend of developers leaving the company at that time.
    If his leaving had been in any way connected to the changes of design direction, we would have heard about expansion being in development at least 4-5 months earlier than we actually did.

    Besides, i still disagree with you that it is the "OW focus" that caused the revenue loss. It was the feeling (whether justiffied or not) of the game winding down towards maintenance mode. Mere expansion announcement had done much more for the game than releasing a fractal/raid wing or two would have.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    It was the feeling (whether justiffied or not) of the game winding down towards maintenance mode.

    Well do you think that someone would "feel" that the game is winding down towards maintenance mode if content they are playing received constant updates? Unfortunately most of the game's aspects have been neglected for a rather long time, increasing the feeling of going into maintenance mode.

    Mere expansion announcement had done much more for the game than releasing a fractal/raid wing or two would have.

    At the point the expansion announcement happened? Probably. But the road map also helped because it showed the developers are no longer neglecting most of the parts that compose this game. If a similar road map (with content to back it up obviously) was released earlier, it would also help stop the feeling of going into maintenance mode. If the Icebrood Saga announcement contained information/confirmation about all the aspects of the game then it wouldn't feel like Anet is abandoning everything. But the Icebrood Saga announcement was mostly "you'll get some new maps and new living world story" and some completely vague promises about anything else.

    If his leaving had been in any way connected to the changes of design direction, we would have heard about expansion being in development at least 4-5 months earlier than we actually did.

    If I recall in the Icebrood Saga announcement they DID say that the entire company was working on it, so no expansion was in the works, I guess the backlash over the announcement is what led to the expansion concept art being released.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The person I've seen gloating has been you about your raid experience and training. But I guess it takes one to know one.

    It's called giving context as to where ones experience comes from. If me having experience with this content and training new players and pointing this out, as to give credence to my opinion, is gloating, sure I was gloating.

    Context and experience is also why I kept recommending you actually play the content you are giving advice on. As it stands right now, you have absolutely no clue how or what it's like as a new players getting into raids, by your own admission. Seems strange to me to give advice and criticize others while lacking that experience.

    I couldn't hold my promise to not engage again.

    This wasn't about why raiders left the gamemode, this was about why raids didn't attract more people. Your context and experience don't matter there, since you're only seeing why raiders are leaving, not why your so called "sideliners" aren't playing the content.

    New players that go raiding are already part of the raiding community. Also, what own admission? I've raided before, determined they aren't fun in their current state, and stopped playing them. The problem is that people don't even START with raids. If you can't see that, sure, keep on to that "experience" shield, that doesn't actually help, when the problem is to get "sideliners" into the gamemode. Your experience only helps when people are already starting with raids, or currently raiding, not for bringing in new people that didn't decide to raid yet.

    So yeah Context matters, but you're using the wrong context. Your position is completely wrong and you have no clue how people that don't currently raid feel about raids. You're just arguing from the perspective of someone that is already raiding, instead of asking why people don't start raiding, yet you try your hardest to snuff out people's suggestions, when their goal is to make raiding attractive to people that haven't been to raids yet.

    So my suggestion to you: try to listen to players when they give suggestions, instead of holding on to your pride of being an experienced raider.

    At least Anet is trying that with Strike Missions, trying to get people that normally don't raid into raids, but you don't seem to get that.

    @maddoctor.2738
    From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content. Sure.
    Warclaw mount is not content for you, I get it.
    We also only got 1 LS release there.
    January had Siren's reef,
    June had Ahdashim.

    So there was a 4 months gap February to May, if you ignore the addition of the Warclaw which changed WvW drastically. Hardly any of the 1+ years I've heard about.
    4 months, a gap that we also saw for LS in the past.

    Completely ignoring that Strike Missions are their own gamemode and calling them "story" content is just like calling E-speccs only OW content.
    Sorry, but it's like I said before, your definition of what is OW and story content is arbitrary. SMs are just as much instanced content as dungeons, fractals and raids.

    @Asum.4960
    If you really think the target of build templates were casual players, it exposes how clueless you are about casual players and what they buy.
    The system was supposed to replace Arc, that's why Delta had to stop developing Arc. I've not seen many casual players use Arc.
    How bad the system is doesn't actually change who the target audience was.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Warclaw mount is not content for you, I get it.

    The Warclaw was added in March 2019, which is after June 2019 so not sure why you bring that up.

    We also only got 1 LS release there.

    Where? You've confused the scope and time frame now.

    January had Siren's reef,
    June had Ahdashim.

    Yes, both in 2019.

    Completely ignoring that Strike Missions are their own gamemode

    They are their own game mode. Already explained that part multiple times.

    and calling them "story" content

    Shiverpeak Pass "strike mission" is story content. Solo friendly experience. Same with the latest two Strike Missions. Fraenir is doable solo, although it might take some extra work. The Kodan, Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag are the only true group content in Strike Missions so far.

    is just like calling E-speccs only OW content.

    quote for reference:

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP?

    As far as content goes, E-Specs are acquired and trained in the OW (and WVW) and that's it. I wonder how to unlock E-Specs in a Fractal, if you can point me there.

    Sorry, but it's like I said before, your definition of what is OW and story content is arbitrary.

    Your is too. So you should respond to what's objective instead of bringing your own bias in the discussion. An opinion versus an opinion won't really lead anywhere. But you do have objective questions to answer, which you ignored.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    My point is: there were complaints about the story requiring instanced content even before players tried the content.

    The story always requires you to play instanced content, that by itself has never been a complaint.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Most did not even know Forging Steel could be soloed or scaled down to 1 player.

    Which still requires players to do the mechanics so it doesn't really matter for the average casual player.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The aversion to have to group was huge.

    Of course it was, instanced group content has always had increased difficulty compared to the average OW / story content so it amounted enough of a stigma that every other reaction would have actually been rather suprising.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Pair that with the huge distaste with having to do "easy" instanced content for meta rewards, and it paints a very clear picture. No?

    Yeah, that people actually want to play easy content and not this "easy" content they get fed in SM, T1 Fractals and FS. If content being instanced was a problem then we would be seeing complains about the main story being inaccesible because of it which just isn't a thing.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:
    If content being instanced was a problem then we would be seeing complains about the main story being inaccesible because of it which just isn't a thing.

    Do you include expansions and LS story instances being "inaccessible"? Because we've had loads upon loads of complaints about Mordremoth, Caudecus, Balthazar, the Eater of Souls, Scruffy 2.0 and so on.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    If content being instanced was a problem then we would be seeing complains about the main story being inaccesible because of it which just isn't a thing.

    Do you include expansions and LS story instances being "inaccessible"? Because we've had loads upon loads of complaints about Mordremoth, Caudecus, Balthazar, the Eater of Souls, Scruffy 2.0 and so on.

    Which were based on what? Their difficulty or the sheer fact that the content was instanced? Cause every time I remember people complain about the accessibility of story content it was always based on the former.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Warclaw mount is not content for you, I get it.

    The Warclaw was added in March 2019, which is after June 2019 so not sure why you bring that up.

    Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

    We also only got 1 LS release there.

    Where? You've confused the scope and time frame now.

    Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"
    So the War Eternal release.

    January had Siren's reef,
    June had Ahdashim.

    Yes, both in 2019.

    Yes.

    Completely ignoring that Strike Missions are their own gamemode

    They are their own game mode. Already explained that part multiple times.

    Great that we can agree.

    and calling them "story" content

    Shiverpeak Pass "strike mission" is story content. Solo friendly experience. Same with the latest two Strike Missions. Fraenir is doable solo, although it might take some extra work. The Kodan, Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag are the only true group content in Strike Missions so far.

    No, it is Strike mission content. How easy it is doesn't matter, it is still Strike Mission content, and therefore group content.
    You're just adding arbitrary definitions of what does and what doesn't count, but it still won't change that Shiverpeak Pass is a Strike Mission.

    is just like calling E-speccs only OW content.

    quote for reference:

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP?

    As far as content goes, E-Specs are acquired and trained in the OW (and WVW) and that's it. I wonder how to unlock E-Specs in a Fractal, if you can point me there.

    Yep, you're just saying it is OW/WvW content because of the place where you unlock it, not where you can actually actively use it, just to suit your agenda.
    Like I've said before, no reason to discuss this further.

    Sorry, but it's like I said before, your definition of what is OW and story content is arbitrary.

    Your is too. So you should respond to what's objective instead of bringing your own bias in the discussion. An opinion versus an opinion won't really lead anywhere. But you do have objective questions to answer, which you ignored.

    Easy, just use Anets definition of what is OW and Story content. They even see Festivals as Festivals, instead of something else.

    As to your other question: Fractals have been getting more attention than raids, they even have a future if we believe Anet. A whole new quality tier was even introduced just for them.
    My guess as to why we haven't had a fractal for a long time? The response to Siren's Reef from the community. Anet also acknowledged they want to spend more focus and attention on fractals.
    Andrew Gray also never mentioned fractals have a small audience, that was something he only mentioned for raids. So maybe the difficulty tiers seem to work to create an audience for that type of content? It doesn't seem Fractal negligence was due to population size, whereas raids definately have a population problem, like Andew mentioned, and why they need a bridge like Strike Missions.
    He even mentions a big gap between raids and other endgame content. Fractals don't seem to have that gap, thanks to the tiered system.
    Still, I think more people would play fractals if the whole agony system wouldn't exist, unrelated to that.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

    The time frame I gave was June 2019 to February 2020. Warclaw was released on March 2019 which is before June 2019... not sure what's going on here. Why are you going backwards?

    Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

    Same here...

    .How easy it is doesn't matter, it is still Strike Mission content, and therefore group content.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strike_Mission

    Strike Missions are 1-10 player squad-based PvE instances

    Notice the number 1 there. Anet's definition says that Strike Missions are for 1 to 10 players, therefore those made for 1 person are not essentially "group content". Saying that Strike Missions are group content contradicts Anet's definition. Not sure why you do this but you do you.

    Yep, you're just saying it is OW/WvW content because of the place where you unlock it, not where you can actually actively use it, just to suit your agenda.

    You and I have a different opinion of what content is and I assume to you everything a developer creates is "content". I don't, only what I can actively play I consider it content. Skins, outfits, even MOUNTS and E-SPECS are not actual content, you don't "play" them, you "use" them. Which leaves us with their acquisition method to classify them. Just like you say I'm using my definition to suit my agenda, you are using yours to push yours. There isn't much to be said on that subject, since we simply disagree on the definition of what "content" is.

    Easy, just use Anets definition of what is OW and Story content. They even see Festivals as Festivals, instead of something else.

    You mean this one: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Open_world

    An open world, also known as a persistent world, is a game world that continues to exist and change even after a user has exited it, and is open to all players.

    Isn't that Anet's definition of Open World? So in that case everything that is not "persistent" (so, instanced) is not open world. Content that is persistent is Open World. So I guess WVW is also Open World by the official definition. I learned something new.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    If content being instanced was a problem then we would be seeing complains about the main story being inaccesible because of it which just isn't a thing.

    Do you include expansions and LS story instances being "inaccessible"? Because we've had loads upon loads of complaints about Mordremoth, Caudecus, Balthazar, the Eater of Souls, Scruffy 2.0 and so on.

    Which were based on what? Their difficulty or the sheer fact that the content was instanced? Cause every time I remember people complain about the accessibility of story content it was always based on the former.

    If the fights with Mordremoth or Balthazar weren't instanced would we see complaints about their difficulty? The difficulty alone isn't enough to cause complaints. Unless that difficulty is combined with the fight being instanced. If Scruffy 2.0 was a world boss you could simply auto attack him to death, while 12 other players kill it with proper skill usage. This is how the Open World works. And on the other hand, put a Legendary Wyvern Matriarch from Verdant Brink inside a story instance and prepare the forums for complaints. Leave it outside and there are no complaints.

    So to answer your question, complaints for content are based on both difficulty AND being instanced simultaneously, remove either part of the equation and you get very little complaints (unless it's about break bars).

    But I get your point, there are very few complaints on content just for it being instanced, the most recent one the complaints about the Whisper in the Dark meta requiring Strike Missions for completion. In the same threads on that subject you'll find quite a lot of players saying that "I won't do this, regardless of how easy it is, just because it's a Strike Mission" so there is precedent of having complaints for the simple fact that some content was instanced.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    @Asum.4960
    If you really think the target of build templates were casual players, it exposes how clueless you are about casual players and what they buy.
    The system was supposed to replace Arc, that's why Delta had to stop developing Arc. I've not seen many casual players use Arc.
    How bad the system is doesn't actually change who the target audience was.

    It does change your narrative though that catering to Raiders clearly isn't worthwhile -> see missing revenue from "Templates", when the only people who benefit from the system are casual single game mode players (who don't need to buy any more), while hardcore players and especially Raiders got screwed hard by the system.

    What a system is "supposed" to do doesn't matter if the actual design goes completely counter to that, and I never said casuals bought into the system either, quite the opposite, just that they were the only ones catered to with it.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

    The time frame I gave was June 2019 to February 2020. Warclaw was released on March 2019 which is before June 2019... not sure what's going on here. Why are you going backwards?

    Finally the Timeframe. June 2019 to February 2020. 8 months, let's see what I find there. I still see Festivals, PvP (Auric Span), Strike Missions. Tough luck, those aren't OW content or story content.

    Also you posted that timeframe for the first time (even though it still contains non OW content), your old timeframe (which included the WvW mount release) in your post is still there. Why are you pretending you said something different? Own up to your mistakes, you clearly said

    From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content, and the Strikes, which I added in my original quote SEPARATELY for a reason, which you always seemed to remove from your own quotes to suit your agenda.

    Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

    Same here...

    Same here...

    .How easy it is doesn't matter, it is still Strike Mission content, and therefore group content.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strike_Mission

    Strike Missions are 1-10 player squad-based PvE instances

    Notice the number 1 there. Anet's definition says that Strike Missions are for 1 to 10 players, therefore those made for 1 person are not essentially "group content". Saying that Strike Missions are group content contradicts Anet's definition. Not sure why you do this but you do you.

    You know the text in the wiki is player made and not official, don't you? They still call Forging Steel a Strike Mission, even though Anet never called it that, at least they mention it under Notes.

    But you can just look at the same link you posted, they mention the official description
    "Tackle these challenging boss encounters in a group of up to ten players, either as a pre-formed squad or in a public mode anyone can join."
    Notice the "in a group of up to ten players"? GROUP.

    Yep, you're just saying it is OW/WvW content because of the place where you unlock it, not where you can actually actively use it, just to suit your agenda.

    You and I have a different opinion of what content is and I assume to you everything a developer creates is "content". I don't, only what I can actively play I consider it content. Skins, outfits, even MOUNTS and E-SPECS are not actual content, you don't "play" them, you "use" them. Which leaves us with their acquisition method to classify them. Just like you say I'm using my definition to suit my agenda, you are using yours to push yours. There isn't much to be said on that subject, since we simply disagree on the definition of what "content" is.

    Pretty much, we just disagree here. Like I said, any further discussion here is meaningless.

    Easy, just use Anets definition of what is OW and Story content. They even see Festivals as Festivals, instead of something else.

    You mean this one: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Open_world

    An open world, also known as a persistent world, is a game world that continues to exist and change even after a user has exited it, and is open to all players.

    Isn't that Anet's definition of Open World? So in that case everything that is not "persistent" (so, instanced) is not open world. Content that is persistent is Open World. So I guess WVW is also Open World by the official definition. I learned something new.

    That's the player wiki again. But if you want to use that definition, yes WvW has a persistent world, or an open world in technical terms.
    The aerodrome would also be considered an open world map.
    That also means that story content isn't technically open world content, since it doesn't happen in a persistent world, the same as Strike Missions, every Festival Arena, things like celestial challenge, some adventures etc.
    It's always nice to learn something new, isn't it?

    WvW isn't however part of the "Living World", Arenanet's official term for updates related to episodes. Those come with a variety of content, which include the new map as its open world content.

    When I mention OW-content, I've always been referring to the open world content of the non-competitive modes.
    So Core Tyria, HoT, PoF, LS (and VotP, though we only have a Hub map).

    If you can come up with a term that only relates to the open world content of non-competitive modes, feel free to share it, but even then things like the Aerodrome would count towards it, even though it is closely tied to raids, as a hub.

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  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    @Asum.4960
    If you really think the target of build templates were casual players, it exposes how clueless you are about casual players and what they buy.
    The system was supposed to replace Arc, that's why Delta had to stop developing Arc. I've not seen many casual players use Arc.
    How bad the system is doesn't actually change who the target audience was.

    It does change your narrative though that catering to Raiders clearly isn't worthwhile -> see missing revenue from "Templates", when the only people who benefit from the system are casual single game mode players (who don't need to buy any more), while hardcore players and especially Raiders got screwed hard by the system.

    What a system is "supposed" to do doesn't matter if the actual design goes completely counter to that, and I never said casuals bought into the system either, quite the opposite, just that they were the only ones catered to with it.

    Cater: provide with what is needed or required.
    Did casuals need or require templates? No.
    Did raiders need or require them? Given that many used Arc, I guess they did.

    Did Anet design the templates to sell them? I guess, that would be logical, unless they intentionally created a kitten system.
    Who are the people that would buy templates? The casuals that don't really care about builds, or the ones that already used a 3rd party addon to get that functionality?

    The system was designed with people that change builds often in mind.
    That casual players can now use the system, therefore "benefiting" because they didn't use Arc before, so they effectively gained a functionality, doesn't change the target group of build templates.

    That the system was designed badly and therefore did badly revenue wise enforces my narrative, since the system only catered to the target group. There's no revenue to gain from people that don't care about the product, which are the people that don't change builds regularly.

    Non-target group --> didn't buy them because they didn't need them, gained a benefit of extra equipment template and build bank + 2 build templates that used to be locked to content

    Target group -> didn't buy the system because it is kitten.

    End result: Currently a wasted system. Anet is trying again with the legendary armoury. Maybe there to salvage that trainwreck of a system.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Notice the "in a group of up to ten players"? GROUP.

    Well up to ten also includes one. They could've said 5 to 10 to make either a dungeon or a Raid in terms of population but they did not because clearly some of the Strike Missions are designed to be playable by a single person. It would be weird to make that phrase without the word "group" though. Do note that for example the definition for Raids is content aimed for exactly 10 players:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Raid

    Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that's a challenge unlike anything we've previously released in Guild Wars 2.

    But that's really grasping at straws here.

    When I mention OW-content, I've always been referring to the open world content of the non-competitive modes.

    You said to use Anet's definition

    Easy, just use Anets definition of what is OW and Story content.

    That was the only I could find as "official" as possible. I don't think there is an "official" definition of open world out there, other than the one I posted.

    Why are you pretending you said something different? Own up to your mistakes, you clearly said

    That's adorable. If the report feature was working I'd report your post for harassment at this point as you've been trolling for quite a while.
    As for owning up to my mistakes you made a mistake of saying that Fractals didn't have less content releases than Raids and never owned up to it. At least I made a simple typo, not provided a terrible argument like yours.