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It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2020

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    HoT release peak twitch viewers: 10k
    PoF release peak twitch viewers: 17k

    one little raid tournament by teapot peak twitch viewers: 27k

    :3

    And all three are pretty much inconsequential compared to the game population. Let's be honest, GW2 was never really popular on twitch.

    At the same time, when checking YT,
    HoT reveal video: 787 478
    PoF Launch Trailer: 472 699
    Icebrood Saga announcement: 240 827
    IBS last LS chapter (No Quarter) announcement: 120 967
    WoodenPotatoes highest viewership lore video: 408 570
    Mighty teapot highest viewership video (Ultimate Hard Carry Healing Scourge Guide): 141 865

    Mighty Teapot's highest Elitist Raiding Party video (Elitist Raiding Party 3 Trailer): 39 212
    (the highest actual ERP video of that series, the finals, was at 12 384)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭
    edited June 15, 2020

    yeah, thats the point, it was never popular on twich and still some streamer managed to pull quite some people in for a live event and it was not even a expac release, it was kitten raid content.

    what do you think gives more exposure: youtube views on some random videos someone activly has to search or a twitch channel which rocks a lot of views? if there is suddenly a channel in the top ten with a game no one watches normally ofc it will attract more people. i highly doubt that those viewers at the raid tournament were all gw2 players...as you said, its not popular. but it was on the right time in the right place and attracted people.

    the question is, what do we learn from that. are raids & twitch really not needed because they are not popular in the first place or is it maybe a good idea to have such events from time to time and activly develop raids?

    and just so make another point: wow raids is the same story, like 5% kill heroic and 1% mythic (from some quick google search, dunno if those numbers are 100% accurate) and the playerbase is much larger and even pays for the game. now why is wow still developing raids for every xpac when its not even that successful on the biggest mmo on the market? sure, they have a lfr which gets used more but honestly, we also have strikes now which is basically the same...easymode encounters.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2020

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    yeah, thats the point, it was never popular on twich and still some streamer managed to pull quite some people in for a live event and it was not even a expac release, it was kitten raid content.

    what do you think gives more exposure: youtube views on some random videos someone activly has to search or a twitch channel which rocks a lot of views?

    Looking at the numbers i'd say that YT vids in this case win. A lot.

    if there is suddenly a channel in the top ten with a game no one watches normally ofc it will attract more people.

    That's a big if considering how far GW2 twitch viewership is away from being in top 10. A situation like you mentioned is pretty much purely hypothetical. A game noone watches will never get into top 10 on its own. The only way would be for that game to get streamed by someone that gets their viewership from something else.

    Remember the case of Bless Online, and that streamer that made people get into gw2? Guess what? In the long run it didn't impact gw2 popularity in the slightest. At best it caused a short-term dip, and then everything went back to how it were before. That's because it was the streamer that got people interested, not the game itself.

    i highly doubt that those viewers at the raid tournament were all gw2 players...as you said, its not popular. but it was on the right time in the right place and attracted people.

    That vid didn't get high enough to get a lot of people outside of the normal circle. So, it was likely mostly GW2 raiders, Teapot fans, , random gw2 players, and their friends and relations.

    the question is, what do we learn from that. are raids & twitch really not needed because they are not popular in the first place or is it maybe a good idea to have such events from time to time and activly develop raids?

    All we learned from this was that twitch and gw2 do not work well with each other. Which we already knew by that point.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭
    edited June 15, 2020

    you missed the point again. youtube is not a advertisement platform. no one goes out of their way and searches "guild wars 2" just to get that sweet path of fire video to watch it because he is interested. what brings him onto that topic is another advertisement in the first place. most of those 400k views are people which are already playing guild wars 2. on twich people will go out of their way when they see many viewers on a live channel.

    also that point was not "much purely hypothetical". that time when teapot had his tournament not many other big streamers were streaming and he was within the top ten most watched streamers at that point....thats why he got that viewer peak in the first place. as i said, right time, right place. the exposure gw2 got in those few hours was immense.

    in terms of short dip because of bless: throw kitten on the wall an see how much will stick, always works. or as any game dev will say: there are always new people which will get into the game and then use the shop to buy stuff. it doesn't matter how long they will stay, as long as they buy. but people won't get a game without a healthy playerbase. if people want to get a game they get on reddit, if they see a kitten there they will consider twice before buying anything.

    and you will see this in any successful game: the hardcore playerbase generates most interesting content, be it guides, videos, streams and whatnot. miss this community and the game will suffer. why is wow still this big? why is league of legends this big? definitly not just because of the casual playerbase. i am not denying that they probably generate most of the money, but they are not the single reason why those games a this big today.

    its the same with dota vs LoL...dota may have bigger prizepools, but still LoL is leagues bigger and a real esport with multiple physical studios today.

    the point is: you absolutly need both player types in a game like a mmo...and without good teamcontent you will absolutly drive away those people which truly care and generate free content / exposure for your company.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    and you will see this in any successful game: the hardcore playerbase generates most interesting content, be it guides, videos, streams and whatnot. miss this community and the game will suffer. why is wow still this big? why is league of legends this big? definitly not just because of the casual playerbase. i am not denying that they probably generate most of the money, but they are not the single reason why those games a this big today.

    its the same with dota vs LoL...dota may have bigger prizepools, but still LoL is leagues bigger and a real esport with multiple physical studios today.

    the point is: you absolutly need both player types in a game like a mmo...and without good teamcontent you will absolutly drive away those people which truly care and generate free content / exposure for your company.

    Simply put:
    Most often the hardcore players are the ones that create content outside of the game that others might stumble upon. How many casual players (casual as in very limited play time, which is a reality for many players) have regular channels, streams, content drops, guides, strategies, etc. which generate interested in a game? No hardcore players, no additional content.

    Which leads us strait into one of GW2 other core issues: it has nearly no exposure and is not even a blip as far as content creators goes (no disrespect to the few we have like WP or Teapot and others), but getting into that would totally derail this thread and blow up the scope.

    It is enough of a concern though to question the approach that casual only matters.

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Every Thing You Have Said In This Thread

    Is pretty much spot on. I applaud you for all the rebuttals you have given up to this point because I would have lost my patience by now.

    For me I have hit the point of saturation for easy content. I will play any new content for at least a little while but if it does not challenge me I rarely if ever come back to it. More consideration to the veterans of harder content does need to be looked at. Because for those that are to that point are looking for things to do. Don't get me wrong doing the same content over and over is fun in all but there comes a time where the fun becomes mundane.

    Anet needs to figure some things out as far as releasing content goes. Focusing on any particular player base for to long alienates the other bases and people leave. For any great change in this game to happen they need to figure out how to release content on all levels in a timely manner. Not doing so is effectively shooting themselves in the foot. Losing people effects their bottom line and until they can get a better solution than they have now this will continue to happen. It is basically Albert Einstein's definition of insanity, "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result".

    Raiding can be hard and is not for everybody but as the old adage goes anything worth doing isn't easy. So people are going to have to figure it out on their own because I don't see Anet throwing any bones towards teaching people correctly anytime soon. Plus having a the living story to keep moving forward and an Xpac on the horizon I will not hold my breath on seeing much new in any instanced game mode.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?
    Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    It seems to me with the new LW map, people are really more interested and attracted to large map wide metas as well as the promise of loot and mountains of bags or rewards.

    And seeing as how many HoT maps are still having meta trains to this day kinda solidifies this fact to be honest.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    It seems to me with the new LW map, people are really more interested and attracted to large map wide metas as well as the promise of loot and mountains of bags or rewards.

    And seeing as how many HoT maps are still having meta trains to this day kinda solidifies this fact to be honest.

    Many (if not even most) people are much more interested in JUST getting the loot, than they are interested in the events though.
    If you gave them the same loot for playing Mad King says for the same period of time, they would just do that.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    Many (if not even most) people are much more interested in JUST getting the loot, than they are interested in the events though.
    If you gave them the same loot for playing Mad King says for the same period of time, they would just do that.

    That's true.
    But then again, there are only so many times yu can do Mad King Events and become absolutely bored out of yur mind.

    Having a variety of map metas to train through keeps things fresh.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    It seems to me with the new LW map, people are really more interested and attracted to large map wide metas as well as the promise of loot and mountains of bags or rewards.

    And seeing as how many HoT maps are still having meta trains to this day kinda solidifies this fact to be honest.

    Many (if not even most) people are much more interested in JUST getting the loot, than they are interested in the events though.
    If you gave them the same loot for playing Mad King says for the same period of time, they would just do that.

    Yes and no, it's actually a combination of both:

    content people like (gameplay wise) + low rewards = "dead content"

    but also:

    content people despise (gameplay wise) + rewards people want to have = "dead content"

    Both have to be on an at least exaptable level for people to play it.

    Limiting the bulk of the rewards to "once a day" also has a negative impact on player participation.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2020

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Today marks the 1 year anniversary since wing 7 came out. The longest drought we’ve had with really no end in sight. RIP raid community.

    At least we have strikes that bore the raiders to sleep right?

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97028/a-message-from-andrew-gray

    “Raids
    • Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.”

    If they would fix their engine to turn visual vomit down, I think they would have a better shot at getting people into 10 man content. Without that, 5 man is more than enough visuals to still try to see what is going on.

    I highly doubt it's the visuals that is the primary issue with attracting more players. Honestly, I can't think of a single characteristic about raids that's attractive to the casual player.

    On demand? Nope, too much overhead for creating team so requires scheduling with teammates
    Time friendly? Not really, unless your team is really capable ... which requires premades
    Attractive rewards? Like any traditional MMO, farming is the name of the game here.

    Just to name a few.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Honestly, I can't think of a single characteristic about raids that's attractive to the casual player.

    I'd like to experience the story in them, especially the story of Saul D'Alessio.
    I doubt I'm the only casual that feels that way.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Or they just want to add a fourth tier of monetization to it.

    I really wish I didn't agree with this, but I do. Did anyone who make legendaries ever ask for a system like the armory? I never had a problem with the idea that I'd have one copy of the legendary item itself, and if I really wanted to share the item across characters I'd have to ship it around or make more copies. I really don't have faith in their template/armory system, given how it's been so far. Of course, they could surprise me like they did with mounts, but I'm not sure this is really the same kind of company anymore (it certainly isn't the same actual people).