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The biggest barrier to raids

Its not about skills or difficulty, its about getting 10 people together. That's the biggest challenge and the biggest barrier to raid.

Peace

<13

Comments

  • Hi Arwen ,

    In my experience it depends on the night. For Dhuum finding competent randoms with experience in mechanics and able to back up mechanics was much harder. On less popular wings like w2 yeh getting a group is half the battle. Heck getting a hand kite is most of the win condition for our pug runs.

    Cheers

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Its not about skills or difficulty, its about getting 10 people together. That's the biggest challenge and the biggest barrier to raid.

    Peace

    Strikes get 10 players together all the time so this is really a non-issue. If there's an issue with raids, it'd not due to the quantity of players needed for the squad.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

    Most are not toxic. It only seems that way if you join a group that clearly indicated certain requirements and you join despite knowing that you do not meet them.

    That's every group though. Almost no one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds, etc, and the only real difference from a hardcore group is that they might not kick you if you don't have full Ascended and kill proofs.

    Its like the difference between a white dress and a black dress, each for different occasions but both overtly formal.

    Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

    One thing that might help is to allow "public" raids like with Strike Missions.

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  • Nope, not about being toxic. Usually the toxic people are the one with zero skills that blame their problems on others. Its really about assembling a 10 person group and then getting into raid. Takes more time getting 10 people than doing the actual boss. Hence the barrier.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

    Most are not toxic. It only seems that way if you join a group that clearly indicated certain requirements and you join despite knowing that you do not meet them.

    That's every group. No one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds, etc, and the only real difference from a hardcore group is that they might not kick you if you don't have full Ascended and kill proofs.

    Its like the difference between a white dress and a black dress, each for different occasions but both overtly formal.

    Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

    People pug all the time. If you want a none-meta class/build group then feel free to create your own. With how many people that keep creating these threads complaining about raids, surely there's at least 10 of you with the same mindset to form a group like that.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

    Most are not toxic. It only seems that way if you join a group that clearly indicated certain requirements and you join despite knowing that you do not meet them.

    That's every group. No one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds, etc, and the only real difference from a hardcore group is that they might not kick you if you don't have full Ascended and kill proofs.

    Its like the difference between a white dress and a black dress, each for different occasions but both overtly formal.

    Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

    People pug all the time. If you want a none-meta class/build group then feel free to create your own. With how many people that keep creating these threads complaining about raids, surely there's at least 10 of you with the same mindset to form a group like that.

    Not the point of this thread, ill just repeat myself the barrier to raid is the number of people required to actually do the raid. People who want to play non meta build can always LFG and guess what, they will wait and wait and wait and probably get their group after a ton of waiting.

    Say it was a five person thing like fractals and that it was balanced toward five people, I honestly think people would venture way more in raids. Just my thought.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    You are right. This is such a severe issue that people wrote a song about it.

  • @DirtyDan.4759 said:
    You are right. This is such a severe issue that people wrote a song about it.

    HAHAHAHA this is incredible!

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @A R W E N.6895 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

    Most are not toxic. It only seems that way if you join a group that clearly indicated certain requirements and you join despite knowing that you do not meet them.

    That's every group. No one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds, etc, and the only real difference from a hardcore group is that they might not kick you if you don't have full Ascended and kill proofs.

    Its like the difference between a white dress and a black dress, each for different occasions but both overtly formal.

    Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

    People pug all the time. If you want a none-meta class/build group then feel free to create your own. With how many people that keep creating these threads complaining about raids, surely there's at least 10 of you with the same mindset to form a group like that.

    Not the point of this thread, ill just repeat myself the barrier to raid is the number of people required to actually do the raid. People who want to play non meta build can always LFG and guess what, they will wait and wait and wait and probably get their group after a ton of waiting.

    Say it was a five person thing like fractals and that it was balanced toward five people, I honestly think people would venture way more in raids. Just my thought.

    Then it's hardly a barrier if this impacts less than 10 players.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    The biggest problem is that most assume raids should be puggable the same way you could pug for an event in open world event.

    And that will never happen because raids will never enter the realms of the to-do list endgame progression.

    The best solution would be to introduce guild content as part of the games to-do list endgame progression so that less players feel like they need to be able to pug pretty much everything in the game. Or introduce end game content that lumps fractals, raids and strike missions altogether so that the incentives to become part of a group and by extension a guild becomes so much high that most players see the benefits of joining a guild, even though there isn’t much reason to join it the first place.

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    Raid like content is puggable in other games. In Tera when Manaya's Core was endgame, I pug 3 and 2 manned hard mode (MCHM), which took a lot of fails, but I had the core mechanics down from doing normal mode, then 5 man hard mode. And I still screwed up 2 man a lot. The community just had a really different attitude. The game also does a better job of teaching you to play with a kind of raider's mindset by mercilessly one shotting everyone in the party if you don't overwrite this debuff with that one at the right time, in the right place.

    The last time I played Tera though, item level crept up so high you could solo MCHM in 90 seconds and ignore all mechanics. It was kinda sad to see because Shandra Manaya was a really fun boss in its day. Its funny looking back at the death montages. Is that even a thing in GW2?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    Raid like content is puggable in other games. In Tera when Manaya's Core was endgame, I pug 3 and 2 manned hard mode (MCHM), which took a lot of fails, but I had the core mechanics down from doing normal mode, then 5 man hard mode. And I still screwed up 2 man a lot. The community just had a really different attitude. The game also does a better job of teaching you to play with a kind of raider's mindset by mercilessly one shotting everyone in the party if you don't overwrite this debuff with that one at the right time, in the right place.

    This is actually a big issue here. GW2s mechanics ans combat system, as unique and great it may be with lack of traditional trinity and build freedom and everything, leads to an insane performance gap between players.

    I can't recall a single MMORPG I have played where player performance was this spread appart.

    Pair that with the next part:

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    The last time I played Tera though, item level crept up so high you could solo MCHM in 90 seconds and ignore all mechanics. It was kinda sad to see because Shandra Manaya was a really fun boss in its day. Its funny looking back at the death montages. Is that even a thing in GW2?

    No it is not. At least not as much as most other MMORPGs. While there certainly has been power creep with each expansion with elite specializations, there is no itemization creep to the extent that content becomes insignificant.

    Raids today for example are far easier than years ago. Both due to a wider availability of compositions as well as power creep of elite specs. They still require a certain minimum personal skill level though.

    Which is the issue at hand:
    Players in GW2 have to get better and improve in order to succeed and clear this content, unlike other games where the item power creep just takes care of this issue.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    Raid like content is puggable in other games. In Tera when Manaya's Core was endgame, I pug 3 and 2 manned hard mode (MCHM), which took a lot of fails, but I had the core mechanics down from doing normal mode, then 5 man hard mode. And I still screwed up 2 man a lot. The community just had a really different attitude. The game also does a better job of teaching you to play with a kind of raider's mindset by mercilessly one shotting everyone in the party if you don't overwrite this debuff with that one at the right time, in the right place.

    The last time I played Tera though, item level crept up so high you could solo MCHM in 90 seconds and ignore all mechanics. It was kinda sad to see because Shandra Manaya was a really fun boss in its day. Its funny looking back at the death montages. Is that even a thing in GW2?

    Yes, but we call it dungeon bosses.
    Here's how difficult it was 7 years back:

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    I don't think power creep solved any issues in Tera though. If anything, it made you complacent, since you no longer need to deal with mechanics in over-levelled content, you never learn them. That was a problem Tera had that doesn't effect GW2 - it left behind a mass grave of old content, trivialised by item power scaling.

    When I mentioned death montages, I meant that I had a lot of fun and memorable moments in groups that wiped over and over until it became a comic strip worthy of uploading to youtube. There was a mindset in Tera that you are going to wipe a lot, so you might as well get used to it. For me at least, getting used to failure meant laughing when someone spectacularly drops the ball. And its funny because I've done it too. Getting my poop pushed in over and over did make me better at the game so it was a rite of passage in a way.

    I would consider Kelsaik back then to be harder than any strike mission in GW2 right now and that was levelling content in Tera. You had to learn right there and then that this is what the game does - its going to punish everyone for your mistakes and until you rectify those mistakes, the game ends here - you will not get any further than this. Despite this, I never saw anyone get kicked and I never saw entry requirements to do Kelsaik. The GW2 community just has a different attitude in pugs.

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Here's how difficult it was 7 years back:

    Ahh I remember making all of those mistakes. Good times. Look how few boons they have!

    How I learned dungeons was really weird though. There was this one guy in WvW that was rich and back at release you don't get to be rich if you WvW exclusively. He made all his money doing dungeons and he showed us all the corner blocking strats and AI cheese in the WvW voip server. I have no idea how he learned it or if someone taught him (and how they learned it).

    Hell that might explain it. Games like Tera keep trashing their own content by power creeping until only the newest stuff matters or is challenging. So you never get out of that mindset of learning through failure. But the cost of that is great boss encounters last year become irrelevant this year and you'll never have that experience again (unless you can find enough people to deliberately under level old content for old time's sake). In GW2 however, you can grab 5 noobs and still get wrecked by Subject Alpha in 2020. Silver lining perhaps?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    Raid like content is puggable in other games. In Tera when Manaya's Core was endgame, I pug 3 and 2 manned hard mode (MCHM), which took a lot of fails, but I had the core mechanics down from doing normal mode, then 5 man hard mode. And I still screwed up 2 man a lot. The community just had a really different attitude. The game also does a better job of teaching you to play with a kind of raider's mindset by mercilessly one shotting everyone in the party if you don't overwrite this debuff with that one at the right time, in the right place.

    The last time I played Tera though, item level crept up so high you could solo MCHM in 90 seconds and ignore all mechanics. It was kinda sad to see because Shandra Manaya was a really fun boss in its day. Its funny looking back at the death montages. Is that even a thing in GW2?

    Yes, but we call it dungeon bosses.
    Here's how difficult it was 7 years back:

    Love it. Kind of just shows how pink glass eyed players are when talking about how GW2 is for casuals. Fractals with their instant death agony mechanics, due to lack of possible resistance, were even worse. No perfect dodges of all boss agony attacks? You die.

    Dungeons were seriously hard in the beginning. I still dread that Arah path 4 and my 2 hour run with a disband at the end.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    That's every group though. Almost no one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds,

    Well yes, when the lfg says druid, people are not looking for a 3 signet berserker druid with sand lion, offhand dagger and beast mastery. We want the harrier druid with Grace of the Land, cc pets, spirits, spotter and axe/warhorn+staff because that's one of the most overpowered builds in pve. Longbow or offhand axe if needed.

    Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

    Here's a thought for you: Make your own group with your own rules. Problem solved. If people join that are not to your liking, kick them.

  • I will still repeat myself, the moment you understand your class and that you understand what is going on with the boss, everything is not that hard. What is hard is having 10 people with the above mentioned knowledge. Hence, that is why I keep saying that having 10 man is a barrier to raids.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    Not really.

    More like getting 10 people together, and have each of them regard their playmate's skill level as 'acceptable'.

    That's it ... that's why the smart people 'arrange' their play around good social networks and not PUG's.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2020

    Raid like content is puggable in other games.

    Ikr, the endgame in PSO2 for example pretty much entirely consists of PuG raid / SM like content while the combat system is even more impacted by player skill than the "action combat" of this game (GW2 by comparison feels like as if the game puts an anchor on you) and you don't have any problem finding a group for these quests, at all.

    The most noticeable difference here is that the main focus lies in the presentation while the content itself is incredibly easy, so much so that players who know what they're doing can effortlessly solo it and thats just the thing. Make content easy and rewarding and people are going to play it to the dissatisfaction of those seeking a challenge.

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Besetment.9187 said:
    Raid like content is puggable in other games. In Tera when Manaya's Core was endgame, I pug 3 and 2 manned hard mode (MCHM), which took a lot of fails, but I had the core mechanics down from doing normal mode, then 5 man hard mode. And I still screwed up 2 man a lot. The community just had a really different attitude. The game also does a better job of teaching you to play with a kind of raider's mindset by mercilessly one shotting everyone in the party if you don't overwrite this debuff with that one at the right time, in the right place.

    This is actually a big issue here. GW2s mechanics ans combat system, as unique and great it may be with lack of traditional trinity and build freedom and everything, leads to an insane performance gap between players.

    I can't recall a single MMORPG I have played where player performance was this spread appart.

    I agree and I can certainly relate to this. Every other games I've played, has been really clear on how to master the character's skill and the tutorial/guides (whether in-game or fan-made) are very easy to follow, they don't required whole night of practicing dps rotation at the golem/watch snowcrow video at 0.25 speed with few pauses & rewind to watch again/read that whole page of alien language (I mean 40 lines of rotation and what each skill/trait does as well as what to do in each boss for your role), and I'm usually a big fan of playing all the classes, in which I am usually be able to master quite a few classes and be able to teach/carry people who are new to the game; but I cannot do that in this game because I myself has been having a hard time to even fully master more than a class, mediocre in 2 other classes at best.

    My biggest shortcoming is that I have a memory of a gold fish and I cannot build craft (higher ping might also be an issue, or perhaps... I'm just too old to perform fast rotation). Mechanics aren't the problem for me (apart from the latest 1 that blinds you to eternity with too much visual clutter), because I'm capable of learning them and be good at them eventually, but the complicated class system and the long chain of rotation is where it stops me from being able to offer multi-classes to the team, and I've been playing this game for a few years.

    Is having such a flexibility in build diversity a good thing? For me it's 2-sided. Yes you can create many builds, but to do instance content there's still a recipe to follow in order to succeed, for eg: skill rotation has to be done in a certain order and speed in order to achive the acceptable dps.

    Now I'm not complaining about the complicated build system in this game, I'm just trying to state that it's true that the amount of self-learning/knowledge/preparation/skill required in this game is far... far more exceed than the other games that I've played, therefore it's normal that a lot of new players thought they could just jump into any instance content with their open world build without knowing that they needed a different build for that if no one told them. I myself had been in that shoes where a guidie asked me to join a T1 fractal without telling me anything about builds and gears (he knew I was a new player), then after we failed a few times on a boss pull, he then asked me to ping my gears that I have acquired free from the level 80 boost, then shamed and flamed me for having those in front of everyone (fun fact: he didn't even have issue with my LB core ranger), and yes, I left the that very 1st guild I joined because of that incident. This was when I first started the game. Had the game came with a useful tutorial about build-craft/skill rotation/gear stat and runes required for each build, I didn't have to go through any of those humiliation: I only learnt where to look for those fan-made learning resources after a kind-hearted few told me about it.

    I might have been rambling on an off-topic too much, but all I gonna say is, there's a reason why the skill gap between a pro-player and a casual is sky-rocket high in which the game needs to do a better job at teaching their own players, whether to point them to the fan-made tools with a written mail/quest npc, host a live stream-tutorial from the developer from time to time and make sure to alert the players about it, or create a better in-game tutorial about it instead of a do-this-do-that beginner's quest that teaches nothing but still call it a tutorial.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @Blueberry.8095 said:
    snip

    I feel you. It becomes progressively harder the more classes and roles ones has to learn. The good news, if one might call this, and the recommendation I would give in this case to any one, since I am sure you are not alone with this problem:

    Top end performance is not needed for nearly any challenging instanced content encounter (aka raids) and there are many classes which forgo top end performance in favor of far far FAR simpler rotations. The main problem here is that while top end meta builds are advertised on nearly every build site (metabattle, snowcrows, luckynoobs, etc) it can be more challenging to find the "simplified" builds. Here once again, having access to players with more experience is valuable, once more a reason to recommend players join guilds with helpful players.

    As to your guild mates approach, that was unfair and uncalled for. That's not on you and shifting the blame on some one that way is very inappropriate (what I mean is your guild mate should not have shifted the blame on you).

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For me it would be time. Raids can be time consuming, especially when you pug.

  • Fangoth.3164Fangoth.3164 Member ✭✭

    Its not about the kill, its about improving your gameplay.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    The rotations seem complex but in most cases they are really not if you know your abilities. If you just list the rotation without context yes it will seem super complex but in reality it is quite clear what buttons to press at what time. In general there are a few big hitters for each weapons and than you have everything on CD and need to switch and again same situation. The other abilities are usually obviously not dps abilities (like block or cc) or do not fit your build (condi vs power for example). Now you add stacking modifiers and getting all the big hitters inside the stack and voila you're basically there. And this is actually very similar to pretty much any rpg out there.
    There are some piano builds that are an exception.

    Yes there are these ideal rotations but in reality they are just not needed not are even applicable to real fights with movement, cc and other stuff going on.

    I dll arcdps every time I make a new build and test it and usually can reach 15k+ dps if I did it right. This means in a real fight not some golem nonsense. If required I could optimize this but it is not really required unless you and your group are really striving for perfection. And most people here are just not there even if they talk like they do 30k dps in a real scenario. There are also people that talk like 10k dps is auto attack dmg which is again just not true.

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    The rotations seem complex but in most cases they are really not if you know your abilities. If you just list the rotation without context yes it will seem super complex but in reality it is quite clear what buttons to press at what time. In general there are a few big hitters for each weapons and than you have everything on CD and need to switch and again same situation. The other abilities are usually obviously not dps abilities (like block or cc) or do not fit your build (condi vs power for example). Now you add stacking modifiers and getting all the big hitters inside the stack and voila you're basically there. And this is actually very similar to pretty much any rpg out there.
    There are some piano builds that are an exception.

    Yes there are these ideal rotations but in reality they are just not needed not are even applicable to real fights with movement, cc and other stuff going on.

    I dll arcdps every time I make a new build and test it and usually can reach 15k+ dps if I did it right. This means in a real fight not some golem nonsense. If required I could optimize this but it is not really required unless you and your group are really striving for perfection. And most people here are just not there even if they talk like they do 30k dps in a real scenario. There are also people that talk like 10k dps is auto attack dmg which is again just not true.

    What I was trying to say in my post before wasn't about "how easy it'd get AFTER you spent a whole night (might be few) on studying/analysing/ask a pro/practicing". Of course anyone could learn a build to an acceptable level after that amount of time/effort/work being poured into it. Before you grab the concept of a build to the point you can use your own rotation depending on the situation, you still need to practice the suggested rotation on the golem before & read up what each skill does & how do each combo work yes? No?

    I was just saying that in the other games I played, I can far more quickly to master a class as well as mastering many other classes in such a shorter time without having to go all out on research/study/practice BEFORE starting to use it; but I can not do that in this game due to its complicated build system. It's not just about play by just knowing the basics, but also trying to improve & to be able to provide more that just a mediocre dps figure, which is important in raids. I'm very happy that it isn't hard for you to be able grab on the concept quickly and use it fluently in different situations, because I certainly need a far longer time to achieve that.

    Also fully master a class and just knowing how to use it are 2 different things. It's like the alacrigade who knows how to provide the basic like alacrity but doesn't know that they can also switch out shiro for dwaft for stab on 100cm islands, or may be knowing that when they'll pull out that ventari tablet instead of relying on HB heals. Ever been on bone skinner when the comm ask if alac can pop the tablet & there were no reply? Or may be they said yes but still didn't use it? That's what I meant by fully master. Without that certain level of knowledge one can still play a class but won't be able to provide what's they're supposed to provide and get carried.

    Despite all that pro-level gaming, some people who were new to the instanced content wouldn't even know how much preparation is required, how much "study" they need before they jump into one, how to gear, let along where to look for the right build. Because I was once thought that I can use the same build I learnt from when I 1st started the game till max level and bring it into any other modes like dungeon/raid like the other games. Which I think this game needs to do a better job in teaching in order to shorten the gap between an open-worlder & a player at pro level.

    • Now back to the main topic (sorry to steer away for that long), the barrier to enter the raid for me is the complicated build system and how much of a different game it is between each game mode (for eg: open world <---> raid).
  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blueberry.8095 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    The rotations seem complex but in most cases they are really not if you know your abilities. If you just list the rotation without context yes it will seem super complex but in reality it is quite clear what buttons to press at what time. In general there are a few big hitters for each weapons and than you have everything on CD and need to switch and again same situation. The other abilities are usually obviously not dps abilities (like block or cc) or do not fit your build (condi vs power for example). Now you add stacking modifiers and getting all the big hitters inside the stack and voila you're basically there. And this is actually very similar to pretty much any rpg out there.
    There are some piano builds that are an exception.

    Yes there are these ideal rotations but in reality they are just not needed not are even applicable to real fights with movement, cc and other stuff going on.

    I dll arcdps every time I make a new build and test it and usually can reach 15k+ dps if I did it right. This means in a real fight not some golem nonsense. If required I could optimize this but it is not really required unless you and your group are really striving for perfection. And most people here are just not there even if they talk like they do 30k dps in a real scenario. There are also people that talk like 10k dps is auto attack dmg which is again just not true.

    What I was trying to say in my post before wasn't about "how easy it'd get AFTER you spent a whole night (might be few) on studying/analysing/ask a pro/practicing". Of course anyone could learn a build to an acceptable level after that amount of time/effort/work being poured into it. Before you grab the concept of a build to the point you can use your own rotation depending on the situation, you still need to practice the suggested rotation on the golem before & read up what each skill does & how do each combo work yes? No?

    The most important thing is getting a basic understanding about what the build is about. Doing 30k dps at golem with perfect rotation at golem doesn't really help if can't adapt to possible (read: guaranteed) interruptions by mechanics 'cause you don't know how your skills work. A classic example of people having taken a metabuild and not understanding the skills are DHs. Anyone who's done VG more than once with DH in squad has most likely seen them pull seekers onto the squad when CC happens and they use gs5 Binding Blade. Kitty needs to remind almost every single DH to NOT do that after a wipe to 3 seekers on squad trying to CC.

    I was just saying that in the other games I played, I can far more quickly to master a class as well as mastering many other classes in such a shorter time without having to go all out on research/study/practice BEFORE starting to use it; but I can not do that in this game due to its complicated build system. It's not just about play by just knowing the basics, but also trying to improve & to be able to provide more that just a mediocre dps figure, which is important in raids. I'm very happy that it isn't hard for you to be able grab on the concept quickly and use it fluently in different situations, because I certainly need a far longer time to achieve that.

    Kitty essentially never bothers with fully mastering any complicated dps rotation herself, getting to 80-85% of bench at max. if she even bothers with going to golem, and she hasn't heard of any whining about her dps in ages (unless she's played some extremely weak meme build, though even then it's just Kitty feeling apologizing after seeing the end dps if was noticeably below everyone else). There are very few bosses where you need that kind of dps and even then, it's usually some serious speedrun strat that only hardcore raiders use.
    To be honest, it's easily possible to pull decent dps on even very simplified builds such as greatsword-only DH/reaper, hammer guardian (literally 11111), staff mastery daredevil (22222+Fist Flurry, no need to dodge around) etc.

    Also fully master a class and just knowing how to use it are 2 different things. It's like the alacrigade who knows how to provide the basic like alacrity but doesn't know that they can also switch out shiro for dwaft for stab on 100cm islands, or may be knowing that when they'll pull out that ventari tablet instead of relying on HB heals. Ever been on bone skinner when the comm ask if alac can pop the tablet & there were no reply? Or may be they said yes but still didn't use it? That's what I meant by fully master. Without that certain level of knowledge one can still play a class but won't be able to provide what's they're supposed to provide and get carried.

    If alacrigade doesn't bring bubble at Bones, they don't know their job there. Plain and simple.

    Despite all that pro-level gaming, some people who were new to the instanced content wouldn't even know how much preparation is required, how much "study" they need before they jump into one, how to gear, let along where to look for the right build. Because I was once thought that I can use the same build I learnt from when I 1st started the game till max level and bring it into any other modes like dungeon/raid like the other games. Which I think this game needs to do a better job in teaching in order to shorten the gap between an open-worlder & a player at pro level.

    One problem about this is that unlike pretty much every other MMORPG in the market, GW2 doesn't have just one or couple pre-defined playstyles per class (like that one big MMO) but dozens of them and just changing weapons and a couple skills/traits can totally change the gameplay of a class. (thief's super-wide variety of playstyles as good example) It's pretty impossible to create a comprehensive guide on all builds, though teaching about basics like breakbars, boons and conditions would be useful indeed. Kitty's in fact working on those kinds of videos atm but they're taking bunch of time to get material for and write scripts and stuff. (She's already done some semi-educational videos lately on her youtube channel.)
    Versatility and "play how you want"-style has been GW2's shtick but since everyone's in high-end content are very performance-obsessed, it tends to get greatly narrowed in PVP/WvW/endgame PVE. Nobody competitive likes to lose, after all.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    I'm not trying to argue whether one should pull 100% benchmark dps or not, I was just using practicing rotation at the golem for example. When I first started to learn DH, I have to consult a guide of some sort or just by following the suggested rotation to start with, and then analyse the skill order to try & understand why are they in such order or combo, what are the situational skills & such, if it still doesn't make sense, my favourite go-to guide is to consult a friend who play that class 😛. I'm not smart, without a proper guide to start with I cannot simply form my own rotation out of no where, therefore at the end of the day, though eventually I'd have gotten the concept figured (or it suddenly clicked & became easy), still doesn't deny the fact that I've done more research & study as well as time spent before I reach that "oh it's-so-easy-point", so much more than the other games where I could just "plug & play, figure it out along the way". "The learning curve" is different in this game is far bigger than the other games I've played is what I was trying to say, therefore it's normal that there are casuals who were in the same situation as my past-self, who always had the concept of one-starting-build-for-all; whether that the meta builds will become easy afterward is irrelevant. I can't quote a specific part easily on the phone but like you said, there are A LOT of things involved in skills/traits/weapon choice/game mode playstyle, therefore it contributes to the learning curve. I may not have been playing many other online games but let's say the rotation for wizard in Diablo 3 was just to spam 123123123. Yes, jumping from a game as brain dead as that, gw2 is indeed a huge canyon gap for a former filthy-casual like me, instanced content & a proper build for those were very foreign & I only started to use them hesitantly after a friend insisted me to give them a try. Have I not have other people to show me the way, I wouldn't even know what is a proper build because the game didn't teach me anything, didn't even know nor care about boons until I learnt druid, & I'm not saying I should use that as an excuse not to learn, I was just speaking from my freshman experience.

    When I said about fully master & used renegade as an example, wasn't actually referring to dps (apologise if my wording were all over the place), it's about how well a player know which skill does what & when to use in which situation. "Doing their job" is what you want when you have them in your team that you can trust them for bringing stab or boonstrip when they need to. Like when I just started with renegade, I didn't even know that Mallyx can pull mobs (one of the example, could be more like sword shadowstep etc...), until late after I've gotten very confident in the basic things (like CC/boonstrip/F2/F4), weeks?/months? after I CM with the same toon everyday, I can finally figure out that renegade can do much more. That, to me, is to master a class, it took me months of dedication & effort to do so. I'm a very slow learner I know, & I thank my static to tolerate me for months before most people who knows me now wants me to be their renegade. All that, is the fact that it takes a lot more learning & practicing in this game than the other games. For that same amount of time spent, I'd already been playing the 5th class in a different game now & be good at them too.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    I dll arcdps every time I make a new build and test it and usually can reach 15k+ dps if I did it right. This means in a real fight not some golem nonsense. If required I could optimize this but it is not really required unless you and your group are really striving for perfection. And most people here are just not there even if they talk like they do 30k dps in a real scenario. There are also people that talk like 10k dps is auto attack dmg which is again just not true.

    Auto attack dps is ~15-17k for most classes and sometimes more. There are lots of bosses where reaching 95% of golem dps is possible like cairn, MO etc. Doing 30k there is pretty common and you can always just look at the phase dps instead of the overall encounter dps.
    The difference between this and other mmos is that players in this game just get offended if the game shows them that they need to change their build/playtstyle. Every time they released a story boss that wasn't a complete joke a vocal community demands nerfs. Try arguing with people in the nicest way possible that they are not bringing a useful build into strikes and they just reply with stuff like "this is not my job" and similar sentences.
    The only barrier into raiding is finding a group and most of them are dying since a raiding community needs more than 3 bosses once a year.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    I dll arcdps every time I make a new build and test it and usually can reach 15k+ dps if I did it right. This means in a real fight not some golem nonsense. If required I could optimize this but it is not really required unless you and your group are really striving for perfection. And most people here are just not there even if they talk like they do 30k dps in a real scenario. There are also people that talk like 10k dps is auto attack dmg which is again just not true.

    Auto attack dps is ~15-17k for most classes and sometimes more.

    Maybe in theory, on a golem (and definitely not on all classes). In practice, the people that can do that are the same people that can already pull off higher numbers on those bosses using more proper rotations. As for less experienced players, however, it's not so unusual to see them do well below 10k damage even when running a proper meta build. Especially if it's a melee build.

    There are lots of bosses where reaching 95% of golem dps is possible like cairn, MO etc. Doing 30k there is pretty common and you can always just look at the phase dps instead of the overall encounter dps.

    That's again, only for experienced players that generally already have no problem with their rotations. The less experienced players will not be able to skip most of the mechanics. On Cairn, for example, they will need to run to greens, avoid teleports (or get teleported), etc, which is going to very negatively impact their dps - especially when playing a melee dps class. Expecting 95% of golem dps of them is pure fiction. In reality it would be good if they pulled off above 50%.

    Have you ever put any more effort into training new players for raids? Not just participating in trainings, but helping organize them? Because if you did, you wouldn't be claiming the stuff you do. It's only applicable to the experienced players. The ones that don't actually need that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    I dll arcdps every time I make a new build and test it and usually can reach 15k+ dps if I did it right. This means in a real fight not some golem nonsense. If required I could optimize this but it is not really required unless you and your group are really striving for perfection. And most people here are just not there even if they talk like they do 30k dps in a real scenario. There are also people that talk like 10k dps is auto attack dmg which is again just not true.

    Auto attack dps is ~15-17k for most classes and sometimes more.

    Maybe in theory, on a golem (and definitely not on all classes). In practice, the people that can do that are the same people that can already pull off higher numbers on those bosses using more proper rotations. As for less experienced players, however, it's not so unusual to see them do well below 10k damage even when running a proper meta build. Especially if it's a melee build.

    Kitty's numbers from 2 years ago when power creep wasn't as bad as now:
    Power Sword Chrono 20226
    Power Greatsword Soulbeast 19764
    Power Sword Herald 19121
    Core Bomb Engineer 18812
    Core Hammer Guardian 22935
    Power Sword Deadeye 24985
    Ele, warr and necro were't tested but Kitty's quite certain that power GS Reaper, power axe warrior and power sword weaver are above that, too.
    Doing less than that? golem voice "User ineptitude error. Sorry."
    Obviously not doing mechanics properly and having random mixmash of gear reduces the damage a lot but gear issues kinda mean it's not even the metabuild to begin with and Kitty sees that a lot on newer raiders.

    There are lots of bosses where reaching 95% of golem dps is possible like cairn, MO etc. Doing 30k there is pretty common and you can always just look at the phase dps instead of the overall encounter dps.

    That's again, only for experienced players that generally already have no problem with their rotations. The less experienced players will not be able to skip most of the mechanics. On Cairn, for example, they will need to run to greens, avoid teleports (or get teleported), etc, which is going to very negatively impact their dps - especially when playing a melee dps class. Expecting 95% of golem dps of them is pure fiction. In reality it would be good if they pulled off above 50%.

    1. You don't need to green if you stab+overheal it.
    2. Teleports ofc negatively impact dps but if you successfully avoid them, it doesn't impact the melee dps at all. Though new raiders do get ported 6-12 times per try.
    3. The main issues about experienced player pulling golem dps on Cairn are supports often baiting agony and booning less and boss occasionally porting around, thus reducing dps uptime a bunch.

    Have you ever put any more effort into training new players for raids? Not just participating in trainings, but helping organize them? Because if you did, you wouldn't be claiming the stuff you do. It's only applicable to the experienced players. The ones that don't actually need that.

    Yush, new players usually do really low dps and that's why Kitty usually takes the players she's training to golem if she sees persistent problems. 20 minutes at golem to fix worst issues in rotations can be enough to turn unsuccessful Gorseval squad to successful.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    (Wrong post, please delete)

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    WvW guilds equally struggle to find over 10 structured players. Most 20+ squad runs consist a majority of Zergs that's incapable of sticking with tag in skirmishes.
    Some 30+ squad even turn to flee mode at the sight of 5-6 Roamer guild parties.

    Many skilled WvW players have left this game due to disappointment.

  • @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    WvW guilds equally struggle to find over 10 structured players. Most 20+ squad runs consist a majority of Zergs that's incapable of sticking with tag in skirmishes.
    Some 30+ squad even turn to flee mode at the sight of 5-6 Roamer guild parties.

    Many skilled WvW players have left this game due to disappointment.

    well, my wvw guild was earlier this year and we have a solid 20 player core, doing well so far.
    A 'friend' guild isn't much older and does equally well.
    A very old guild I am in, doesn't care about organizing stuff. Someone just asks 'ebg?' and 5-10 are there.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    WvW guilds equally struggle to find over 10 structured players. Most 20+ squad runs consist a majority of Zergs that's incapable of sticking with tag in skirmishes.
    Some 30+ squad even turn to flee mode at the sight of 5-6 Roamer guild parties.

    Many skilled WvW players have left this game due to disappointment.

    well, my wvw guild was earlier this year and we have a solid 20 player core, doing well so far.
    A 'friend' guild isn't much older and does equally well.
    A very old guild I am in, doesn't care about organizing stuff. Someone just asks 'ebg?' and 5-10 are there.

    Which is called Zerging or Karma Train, that's what WvW has turned into.
    If you simply like the mindless grinding for track progress, all good, for the most hardcore WvW players this is just another form of tasteless PvE.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    WvW guilds equally struggle to find over 10 structured players. Most 20+ squad runs consist a majority of Zergs that's incapable of sticking with tag in skirmishes.
    Some 30+ squad even turn to flee mode at the sight of 5-6 Roamer guild parties.

    Many skilled WvW players have left this game due to disappointment.

    well, my wvw guild was earlier this year and we have a solid 20 player core, doing well so far.
    A 'friend' guild isn't much older and does equally well.
    A very old guild I am in, doesn't care about organizing stuff. Someone just asks 'ebg?' and 5-10 are there.

    Which is called Zerging or Karma Train, that's what WvW has turned into.
    If you simply like the mindless grinding for track progress, all good, for the most hardcore WvW players this is just another form of tasteless PvE.

    It's interesting that 'hardcore' WvW players haven't figured out how to just do their own thing and ignore these karma trains ... direct parallels to people that haven't figured out how to play so they get PVE teams with non-meta classes. Lesson to learn here: don't ignore the social aspect of an MMO.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Fangoth.3164Fangoth.3164 Member ✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    why stopping? nah like wvw, pvp, dungeon, story its a game mode. Indeed not all player want to or give themself the opportunity to play those game mode, it doesn't mean that other they should get rid of it. And if they were to get rid of the gamemode most likely it would make these player go away as they would be forced to go from dynamic team combat to afk solo auto attack.
    imo they just have to continue providing content to all gamemode, whether its wvw, pvp, dungeon, raid or story but also some guild action because its also quite inexistant there i took a 4y break and nothing new for guild mission :#

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    Good then they can make 1, 2 or 3 full raid squads. Why aren't they doing it and are complaining about pugs on the forums?

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    WvW guilds equally struggle to find over 10 structured players. Most 20+ squad runs consist a majority of Zergs that's incapable of sticking with tag in skirmishes.
    Some 30+ squad even turn to flee mode at the sight of 5-6 Roamer guild parties.

    Many skilled WvW players have left this game due to disappointment.

    well, my wvw guild was earlier this year and we have a solid 20 player core, doing well so far.
    A 'friend' guild isn't much older and does equally well.
    A very old guild I am in, doesn't care about organizing stuff. Someone just asks 'ebg?' and 5-10 are there.

    Which is called Zerging or Karma Train, that's what WvW has turned into.
    If you simply like the mindless grinding for track progress, all good, for the most hardcore WvW players this is just another form of tasteless PvE.

    It's interesting that 'hardcore' WvW players haven't figured out how to just do their own thing and ignore these karma trains ... direct parallels to people that haven't figured out how to play so they get PVE teams with non-meta classes. Lesson to learn here: don't ignore the social aspect of an MMO.

    Lesson to learn here: if you value your own opinions, make a habbit of reading your own posts.
    This pattern of trash talking across various threads towards communities or game contents has been too obvious not to notice, as a form of trolling.

    It's interesting you're lecturing what hardcore WvW players do and should do out of a limited participation and experience, on a game mode that's been running over 7 years, or claiming that these groups does not possess a social link. None the less, nothing we say will change the fact that hardcore WvW community is also dwindling, with a steady decline of players "willing" to cross the skill gap.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    Is WvW community dwindling really a fact though? I mean sure it is not what it was years a go but that is the same for the whole game. There are still queues on busy evenings on several maps on EU servers.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    Is WvW community dwindling really a fact though? I mean sure it is not what it was years a go but that is the same for the whole game. There are still queues on busy evenings on several maps on EU servers.

    In part due to the current issues globally. Servers did fill up again, but they were very low beginning of this year, down in part to only 1 full server in NA and 2 full server in EU.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    WvW guilds equally struggle to find over 10 structured players. Most 20+ squad runs consist a majority of Zergs that's incapable of sticking with tag in skirmishes.
    Some 30+ squad even turn to flee mode at the sight of 5-6 Roamer guild parties.

    Many skilled WvW players have left this game due to disappointment.

    well, my wvw guild was earlier this year and we have a solid 20 player core, doing well so far.
    A 'friend' guild isn't much older and does equally well.
    A very old guild I am in, doesn't care about organizing stuff. Someone just asks 'ebg?' and 5-10 are there.

    Which is called Zerging or Karma Train, that's what WvW has turned into.
    If you simply like the mindless grinding for track progress, all good, for the most hardcore WvW players this is just another form of tasteless PvE.

    It's interesting that 'hardcore' WvW players haven't figured out how to just do their own thing and ignore these karma trains ... direct parallels to people that haven't figured out how to play so they get PVE teams with non-meta classes. Lesson to learn here: don't ignore the social aspect of an MMO.

    It's interesting you're lecturing what hardcore WvW players do and should do out of a limited participation and experience, on a game mode that's been running over 7 years, or claiming that these groups does not possess a social link. None the less, nothing we say will change the fact that hardcore WvW community is also dwindling, with a steady decline of players "willing" to cross the skill gap.

    It's not hard to do ... no one should need to be told if you don't like a game after 7 years it's worked this way, that's a choice you make to play it despite the things you don't like about it ... but here we are having people think the game caters to how they want it to work /shrug. Obviously the value you get from playing outweighs the things you dislike if you are still here ... or you are just sensationalizing how 'bad' things are to compel change.

    All communities in old MMO's dwindle after some time (I won't argue that it's happening in the game because it doesn't really matter to my point) so that goes without saying. That doesn't change the truth of what I said though ... if you don't want to play a certain way that you see other people playing, the answer to fix that is social networking ... nothing Anet is going to do is going to make teams happen for you or others that think in a similar way. If you can't find enough people to team with that don't want to play like you, that says more about you than it does the game. MMO isn't a catering service.

    So the biggest barrier to raids? People not making the social connections they need that has been a fundamental part of every MMO ever. That goes for the same issue with people QQIng about karma trains in WvW. If the social group to play iwth likeminded people just isn't big enough, which make you exceptional, that isn't a reason for Anet to adjust the game to change it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    So the biggest barrier to raids? People not making the social connections they need that has been a fundamental part of every MMO ever.

    Social connections are essential in most other MMOs yes, but in Guild Wars 2 they aren't as important because the vast majority of the game is playable on your own, without ever talking to or interacting with anyone. In most cases Guilds are just chat rooms.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    So the biggest barrier to raids? People not making the social connections they need that has been a fundamental part of every MMO ever.

    Social connections are essential in most other MMOs yes, but in Guild Wars 2 they aren't as important because the vast majority of the game is playable on your own, without ever talking to or interacting with anyone. In most cases Guilds are just chat rooms.

    OK ... but we are talking about team content here so ... ?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not hard to do ... no one should need to be told if you don't like a game after 7 years it's worked this way, that's a choice you make to play it despite the things you don't like about it ... but here we are having people think the game caters to how they want it to work /shrug. Obviously the value you get from playing outweighs the things you dislike if you are still here ... or you are just sensationalizing how 'bad' things are to compel change.

    Not sure what you're trying to get at, a player made a comment about the state of getting player participation in a WvW squad compare to raid, and I responded it can still just as difficult finding structured players and why. Did I made a comment on how he should choose which way should he approach the game?

    All communities in old MMO's dwindle after some time (I won't argue that it's happening in the game because it doesn't really matter to my point) so that goes without saying. That doesn't change the truth of what I said though ... if you don't want to play a certain way that you see other people playing, the answer to fix that is social networking ... nothing Anet is going to do is going to make teams happen for you or others that think in a similar way. If you can't find enough people to team with that don't want to play like you, that says more about you than it does the game. MMO isn't a catering service.

    More like contradicting it, this forum is one of the biggest social networking of the entire game, did it convinced anyone on either side, instead of spewing more toxicity?

    So the biggest barrier to raids? People not making the social connections they need that has been a fundamental part of every MMO ever. That goes for the same issue with people QQIng about karma trains in WvW. If the social group to play iwth likeminded people just isn't big enough, which make you exceptional, that isn't a reason for Anet to adjust the game to change it.

    Or people spending too much time trying to aquire recognitions by berating players, communities, and contents with meaningless debate tactics rather than playing the game.