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The biggest barrier to raids

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  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not hard to do ... no one should need to be told if you don't like a game after 7 years it's worked this way, that's a choice you make to play it despite the things you don't like about it ... but here we are having people think the game caters to how they want it to work /shrug. Obviously the value you get from playing outweighs the things you dislike if you are still here ... or you are just sensationalizing how 'bad' things are to compel change.

    Not sure what you're trying to get at, a player made a comment about the state of getting player participation in a WvW squad compare to raid, and I responded it can still just as difficult finding structured players and why. Did I made a comment on how he should choose which way should he approach the game?

    You don't see how your comment is related to what I'm saying? OK .. no wonder you have problems. I mean, I did explain how social network is related to how people play the game successfully ... and it should be pretty clear to people that play MMO's. Not sure the part you aren't getting.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not hard to do ... no one should need to be told if you don't like a game after 7 years it's worked this way, that's a choice you make to play it despite the things you don't like about it ... but here we are having people think the game caters to how they want it to work /shrug. Obviously the value you get from playing outweighs the things you dislike if you are still here ... or you are just sensationalizing how 'bad' things are to compel change.

    Not sure what you're trying to get at, a player made a comment about the state of getting player participation in a WvW squad compare to raid, and I responded it can still just as difficult finding structured players and why. Did I made a comment on how he should choose which way should he approach the game?

    You don't see how that's related? OK .. no wonder you have problems. I mean, I did explain how they are related so ... ?

    Feel free to keep trolling, I'll simply stop here.

    As said on another thread, and threads before it, your method never convinced anyone.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not hard to do ... no one should need to be told if you don't like a game after 7 years it's worked this way, that's a choice you make to play it despite the things you don't like about it ... but here we are having people think the game caters to how they want it to work /shrug. Obviously the value you get from playing outweighs the things you dislike if you are still here ... or you are just sensationalizing how 'bad' things are to compel change.

    Not sure what you're trying to get at, a player made a comment about the state of getting player participation in a WvW squad compare to raid, and I responded it can still just as difficult finding structured players and why. Did I made a comment on how he should choose which way should he approach the game?

    You don't see how that's related? OK .. no wonder you have problems. I mean, I did explain how they are related so ... ?

    Feel free to keep trolling, I'll simply stop here.

    As said, your method never convinced anyone.

    I'm not here to convince you ... there isn't any impact on me if you decide to listen or not ... if you want to continue to have problems doing things you like to do in GW2, that's a choice you make, not an aspect of the game Anet needs to fix for you. Maybe for some other people who aren't so narrowminded with an axe to grind, the suggestion to expand their social network to solve their problems is useful. There isn't actually any reason for you to be so hostile to me for suggesting such a thing.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • A R W E N.6895A R W E N.6895 Member ✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    2 weeks later from my post I can say that nothing has changed. I still hit the benchmarks on multiple class, but guess what, getting 10 people for raids is still the hardest thing there is.

    Its hot outside, I'm going in my pool

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    So the biggest barrier to raids? People not making the social connections they need that has been a fundamental part of every MMO ever.

    Social connections are essential in most other MMOs yes, but in Guild Wars 2 they aren't as important because the vast majority of the game is playable on your own, without ever talking to or interacting with anyone. In most cases Guilds are just chat rooms.

    OK ... but we are talking about team content here so ... ?

    Which changes what I said in what way? Isn't it interesting how content that gets so little attention, like WVW, allows guilds to field 10, 20 or 30 players, while the content that gets the most attention (PVE) has very very few players of the same guild playing together. When was the last time you finished -any- meta event with 9 other members of your own guild in the same squad? With the exception of specialized guilds (WVW guilds, Raid guilds, PVP guilds) and the occasional guild mission, guilds aren't really encouraged to play together. Those that make the connections and join the appropriate guilds will find success, others will simply complain, but it doesn't have to be like this.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    So the biggest barrier to raids? People not making the social connections they need that has been a fundamental part of every MMO ever.

    Social connections are essential in most other MMOs yes, but in Guild Wars 2 they aren't as important because the vast majority of the game is playable on your own, without ever talking to or interacting with anyone. In most cases Guilds are just chat rooms.

    OK ... but we are talking about team content here so ... ?

    Which changes what I said in what way?

    It doesn't ... We are talking about team content. Your statement was related to solo content. You didn't make the connection between your statement and the topic, I asked you to clarify. I still don't see it.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Isn't it interesting how content that gets so little attention, like WVW, allows guilds to field 10, 20 or 30 players, while the content that gets the most attention (PVE) has very very few players of the same guild playing together.

    I don't think it's that interesting ... seems to me that the resources and efforts any game developer will put to a game has nothing to do with any specific parameter you want to cherry pick ... likely that where they focus their time is based on what makes them revenue. Not sure how that's related to the topic though, so let's make sure we stick with it shall we?

    OP is saying barriers to raiding is finding people ... but people aren't that hard to find to do things with, so the answer here is social networking.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    WvW guilds equally struggle to find over 10 structured players. Most 20+ squad runs consist a majority of Zergs that's incapable of sticking with tag in skirmishes.
    Some 30+ squad even turn to flee mode at the sight of 5-6 Roamer guild parties.

    Many skilled WvW players have left this game due to disappointment.

    well, my wvw guild was earlier this year and we have a solid 20 player core, doing well so far.
    A 'friend' guild isn't much older and does equally well.
    A very old guild I am in, doesn't care about organizing stuff. Someone just asks 'ebg?' and 5-10 are there.

    Which is called Zerging or Karma Train, that's what WvW has turned into.
    If you simply like the mindless grinding for track progress, all good, for the most hardcore WvW players this is just another form of tasteless PvE.

    20-25 is not zerging. Neither is 5-10.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    Good then they can make 1, 2 or 3 full raid squads. Why aren't they doing it and are complaining about pugs on the forums?

    I am not complaining, others do. The only thing I am 'invested in' when it comes to raids was ANETS monumental kitten decision to make the shiny legendary armor raid only.

    Just face it: most people do not care about raids. Time to stop pretending and to stop flogging the dead horse.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

    and at the same time, guilds in the dead game mode wvw don't struggle to get 10, 20, 30 people together. Go figure.

    Maybe anet should stop the raid experiment.

    WvW guilds equally struggle to find over 10 structured players. Most 20+ squad runs consist a majority of Zergs that's incapable of sticking with tag in skirmishes.
    Some 30+ squad even turn to flee mode at the sight of 5-6 Roamer guild parties.

    Many skilled WvW players have left this game due to disappointment.

    well, my wvw guild was earlier this year and we have a solid 20 player core, doing well so far.
    A 'friend' guild isn't much older and does equally well.
    A very old guild I am in, doesn't care about organizing stuff. Someone just asks 'ebg?' and 5-10 are there.

    Which is called Zerging or Karma Train, that's what WvW has turned into.
    If you simply like the mindless grinding for track progress, all good, for the most hardcore WvW players this is just another form of tasteless PvE.

    20-25 is not zerging. Neither is 5-10.

    Doesn't matter if you're running 5-10 or 20-25.
    Feel free to ask in your server team chat the definition of Zerging in WvW if you don't believe me.

    On a side note, most player don't care about WvW either, besides farming the Gift of Battle and the Legendary ring. If you really want to look into a grand scale of perspective.

  • panzerdragon.8791panzerdragon.8791 Member ✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    I'd say the biggest barriers to raids are :

    -class competency
    -classroom work on each encounter ( videos and reading )
    -equally competent team
    -builds
    -lfg waiting times

    Most of the above can be worked on . LFG times vary .

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It doesn't ... We are talking about team content. Your statement was related to solo content. You didn't make the connection between your statement and the topic, I asked you to clarify. I still don't see it.

    I already did make the connection, but let me repeat it: guilds in this game being chat rooms therefore not used to form teams, which is why the OP can't find players to play with. If their guild is in such a state they can't find 9 other players to play with, then that's not a problem of the content, but the guild.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Isn't it interesting how content that gets so little attention, like WVW, allows guilds to field 10, 20 or 30 players, while the content that gets the most attention (PVE) has very very few players of the same guild playing together.

    I don't think it's that interesting ... seems to me that the resources and efforts any game developer will put to a game has nothing to do with any specific parameter you want to cherry pick ... likely that where they focus their time is based on what makes them revenue. Not sure how that's related to the topic though, so let's make sure we stick with it shall we?

    Yes follow your advice and stick to the topic, what does revenue have to do with anything? The interesting part is that Guilds focusing on dead content (not my words) like WVW or even Raids can find 10 players to play their content just fine, this isn't disputed I hope. Meanwhile the content that gets all the attention has this "barrier" as the OP called it, if you remember topic. And if you haven't noticed that's wasn't even my argument, but you didn't find it important to call it off topic when it was first mentioned. Another interesting point to note.

    OP is saying barriers to raiding is finding people ... but people aren't that hard to find to do things with, so the answer here is social networking.

    The answer here is to have more social guilds and/or better ways to promote and find such guilds in game. If the OP can't find people then they either need to start recruiting or find a better guild that can get the people. There are no tools in game to search for guilds and find what you are looking for, only recruitment messages. And since there is barely anything to do with your guild, other than chat, this just makes the problem worse.

    Here we go! Quote : "There are no tools in game to search for guilds and find what you are looking for, only recruitment messages. And since there is barely anything to do with your guild, other than chat, this just makes the problem worse. "

    We are getting somewhere now!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It doesn't ... We are talking about team content. Your statement was related to solo content. You didn't make the connection between your statement and the topic, I asked you to clarify. I still don't see it.

    I already did make the connection, but let me repeat it: guilds in this game being chat rooms therefore not used to form teams, which is why the OP can't find players to play with. If their guild is in such a state they can't find 9 other players to play with, then that's not a problem of the content, but the guild.

    There are actually lots of guilds that are dedicated to raiding and there are ways to find them, so your claim that they are just chat rooms because GW2 is mostly solo content doesn't make sense. In addition, the game enables multi-guild membership, so no, it's not a reason the OP can't find players at all. Even if the tools ingame aren't that good, that's a self imposed restriction; there are many other places, including these forums, to find these guilds. I mean, the OP is ALREADY on here, so 'lack of good ingame tools' shouldn't be a problem for him ... it's just an excuse.

    Yes, it would be nice to have a better guild recruiting function ingame ... but no, it's not a barrier to finding a guild, just like it's not a barrier to find any other specialized guild you want to join.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It doesn't ... We are talking about team content. Your statement was related to solo content. You didn't make the connection between your statement and the topic, I asked you to clarify. I still don't see it.

    I already did make the connection, but let me repeat it: guilds in this game being chat rooms therefore not used to form teams, which is why the OP can't find players to play with. If their guild is in such a state they can't find 9 other players to play with, then that's not a problem of the content, but the guild.

    There are actually lots of guilds that are dedicated to raiding and there are ways to find them, so your claim that they are just chat rooms because GW2 is mostly solo content doesn't make sense. In addition, the game enables multi-guild membership, so no, it's not a reason the OP can't find players at all. Even if the tools ingame aren't that good, that's a self imposed restriction; there are many other places, including these forums, to find these guilds. I mean, the OP is ALREADY on here, so 'lack of good ingame tools' shouldn't be a problem for him ... it's just an excuse.

    Yes, it would be nice to have a better guild recruiting function ingame ... but no, it's not a barrier to finding a guild, just like it's not a barrier to find any other specialized guild you want to join.

    Who said I couldn't find players to raid with. I'm simply stating what I find to be true regarding the barriers to raid.

    Seems like I need to repeat myself yet again. The biggest barrier to raid is finding 10 people. I mean, you need to be blind to not see that.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @A R W E N.6895 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It doesn't ... We are talking about team content. Your statement was related to solo content. You didn't make the connection between your statement and the topic, I asked you to clarify. I still don't see it.

    I already did make the connection, but let me repeat it: guilds in this game being chat rooms therefore not used to form teams, which is why the OP can't find players to play with. If their guild is in such a state they can't find 9 other players to play with, then that's not a problem of the content, but the guild.

    There are actually lots of guilds that are dedicated to raiding and there are ways to find them, so your claim that they are just chat rooms because GW2 is mostly solo content doesn't make sense. In addition, the game enables multi-guild membership, so no, it's not a reason the OP can't find players at all. Even if the tools ingame aren't that good, that's a self imposed restriction; there are many other places, including these forums, to find these guilds. I mean, the OP is ALREADY on here, so 'lack of good ingame tools' shouldn't be a problem for him ... it's just an excuse.

    Yes, it would be nice to have a better guild recruiting function ingame ... but no, it's not a barrier to finding a guild, just like it's not a barrier to find any other specialized guild you want to join.

    Who said I couldn't find players to raid with. I'm simply stating what I find to be true regarding the barriers to raid.

    Seems like I need to repeat myself yet again. The biggest barrier to raid is finding 10 people. I mean, you need to be blind to not see that.

    Yes, i read that ... but I disagree that finding 10 people to raid with is the biggest barrier because the population of raiders in this game isn't on the order of 10's or 100's of people ... and those people that do raid are not 'scattered' all over the place making themselves hidden... they want to raid, so they know where to go and hang out to be available for raiding. Repeating yourself doesn't make what you said more true. If finding 10 people to raid with is your biggest barrier, you're doing something extraordinary that you can likely fix.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @A R W E N.6895 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It doesn't ... We are talking about team content. Your statement was related to solo content. You didn't make the connection between your statement and the topic, I asked you to clarify. I still don't see it.

    I already did make the connection, but let me repeat it: guilds in this game being chat rooms therefore not used to form teams, which is why the OP can't find players to play with. If their guild is in such a state they can't find 9 other players to play with, then that's not a problem of the content, but the guild.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Isn't it interesting how content that gets so little attention, like WVW, allows guilds to field 10, 20 or 30 players, while the content that gets the most attention (PVE) has very very few players of the same guild playing together.

    I don't think it's that interesting ... seems to me that the resources and efforts any game developer will put to a game has nothing to do with any specific parameter you want to cherry pick ... likely that where they focus their time is based on what makes them revenue. Not sure how that's related to the topic though, so let's make sure we stick with it shall we?

    Yes follow your advice and stick to the topic, what does revenue have to do with anything? The interesting part is that Guilds focusing on dead content (not my words) like WVW or even Raids can find 10 players to play their content just fine, this isn't disputed I hope. Meanwhile the content that gets all the attention has this "barrier" as the OP called it, if you remember topic. And if you haven't noticed that's wasn't even my argument, but you didn't find it important to call it off topic when it was first mentioned. Another interesting point to note.

    OP is saying barriers to raiding is finding people ... but people aren't that hard to find to do things with, so the answer here is social networking.

    The answer here is to have more social guilds and/or better ways to promote and find such guilds in game. If the OP can't find people then they either need to start recruiting or find a better guild that can get the people. There are no tools in game to search for guilds and find what you are looking for, only recruitment messages. And since there is barely anything to do with your guild, other than chat, this just makes the problem worse.

    Here we go! Quote : "There are no tools in game to search for guilds and find what you are looking for, only recruitment messages. And since there is barely anything to do with your guild, other than chat, this just makes the problem worse. "

    We are getting somewhere now!

    To be honest I've been advocating for more guild visibility inside the game for a rather long time. It's odd to me that players need to resort to out of the game interactions (discord, reddit, or even the official forums) to find a guild for any given purpose. The second problem of the game being anti-social and not having to do anything with your guild is much harder to solve.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Yes, i read that ... but I disagree that finding 10 people to raid with is the biggest barrier because the population of raiders in this game isn't on the order of 10's or 100's of people ... and those people that do raid are not 'scattered' all over the place making themselves hidden... they want to raid, so they know where to go and hang out to be available for raiding. Repeating yourself doesn't make what you said more true. If finding 10 people to raid with is your biggest barrier, you're doing something extraordinary that you can likely fix.

    "Finding 9 raiders" is indeed not that hard. "finding 9 players i would want to play with" is a bit harder, but still doable. It's the "finding 9 raiders i would want to play with" that is a problem.
    (Also, see my signature)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Yes, i read that ... but I disagree that finding 10 people to raid with is the biggest barrier because the population of raiders in this game isn't on the order of 10's or 100's of people ... and those people that do raid are not 'scattered' all over the place making themselves hidden... they want to raid, so they know where to go and hang out to be available for raiding. Repeating yourself doesn't make what you said more true. If finding 10 people to raid with is your biggest barrier, you're doing something extraordinary that you can likely fix.

    "Finding 9 raiders" is indeed not that hard. "finding 9 players i would want to play with" is a bit harder, but still doable. It's the "finding 9 raiders i would want to play with" that is a problem.
    (Also, see my signature)

    Sure ... the more restrictions you apply, the harder it becomes. Honestly, if you can't find 9 people you want to play with ... it's not the game, it's you.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Idk man I can put up an lfg for w1-7 fc lf: exp dps benchmark gods no mortals allowed ping kp and the party fills up fast. True if you need a Chrono tank on the fly it might take some time,but oh well. The most satisfying experiences in the entire game are found in the raids. Killing dhuum took us 20 hours straight and we used random people to fill in. Biggest issue on our raids is consistency on performance. People need to be able to perform adequately the entire fight every single pull. A single mistake per fight over ten people results in alot of failure.

  • memausz.7264memausz.7264 Member ✭✭✭

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Its not about skills or difficulty, its about getting 10 people together. That's the biggest challenge and the biggest barrier to raid.

    Peace

    Well yeah if you have LFG full of "Selling raids for 500g" that's whatcha get.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020

    This is one of the best troll posts I saw in a long time. Keep up the good work, Arwen.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @memausz.7264 said:

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Its not about skills or difficulty, its about getting 10 people together. That's the biggest challenge and the biggest barrier to raid.

    Peace

    Well yeah if you have LFG full of "Selling raids for 500g" that's whatcha get.

    You mean if your guild has less than 10 active players this is what you get

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Because, out of all the active players:

    • half or more would not be interested in the content at all
    • many of the remaining ones interested in the content would not be skilled enough to run it
    • of those, many would not be interested in putting a lot of effort into learning.
    • teaching the unskilled that are still interested in learning would take time

    There are easy Raids and even Strike Missions to bridge the gap there is no need to start from the hardest Raids directly. Furthermore, since Strike Missions are new and more are added on a regular basis, veteran/experienced players would want to run them anyway. In some time the guild can get at least 10 players together to start their instanced content experience and eventually get into Raids.

    It's not like a group of 10 players that have played together for months or even years can't go and start raiding by themselves and in that case all your listed drawbacks go away. But yes all those apply for the impatient and those in guilds that do not have tight communities that can try things together, as a guild.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Because, out of all the active players:

    • half or more would not be interested in the content at all
    • many of the remaining ones interested in the content would not be skilled enough to run it
    • of those, many would not be interested in putting a lot of effort into learning.
    • teaching the unskilled that are still interested in learning would take time

    There are easy Raids and even Strike Missions to bridge the gap there is no need to start from the hardest Raids directly. Furthermore, since Strike Missions are new and more are added on a regular basis, veteran/experienced players would want to run them anyway. In some time the guild can get at least 10 players together to start their instanced content experience and eventually get into Raids.

    It's not like a group of 10 players that have played together for months or even years can't go and start raiding by themselves and in that case all your listed drawbacks go away. But yes all those apply for the impatient and those in guilds that do not have tight communities that can try things together, as a guild.

    All that happened even in guilds with very tight and old commmunities. In fact, it was even more likely to happen for those. More loose guilds are generally built around the content they play, so the issues like this just do not happen that often. It's the close-knit communities that are build not around the types of content but around personal relations between players, and feelings of community and friendship. And it's exactly those guilds that ended up in the worst situation. Unless, of course, they accidentally already had enough of hardcore players to help others out. But, suprise surprise, GW2 being what it is, hardcore players weren't all that common, and it was completely not surprising to see a guild of active 50-100 players to have only 2-3 hardcores. And more often than not, those 2-3 people simply were not enough to jumpstart a guild raid group fast enough.
    Like i said, been there, done that.

    PS: any time where the game creates a case where game goals and community/friendship bonds conflict, it always ends ugly. It's practically a lose/lose situation. No matter what happens, it won't end well.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Because, out of all the active players:

    • half or more would not be interested in the content at all
    • many of the remaining ones interested in the content would not be skilled enough to run it
    • of those, many would not be interested in putting a lot of effort into learning.
    • teaching the unskilled that are still interested in learning would take time

    There are easy Raids and even Strike Missions to bridge the gap there is no need to start from the hardest Raids directly. Furthermore, since Strike Missions are new and more are added on a regular basis, veteran/experienced players would want to run them anyway. In some time the guild can get at least 10 players together to start their instanced content experience and eventually get into Raids.

    It's not like a group of 10 players that have played together for months or even years can't go and start raiding by themselves and in that case all your listed drawbacks go away. But yes all those apply for the impatient and those in guilds that do not have tight communities that can try things together, as a guild.

    All that happened even in guilds with very tight and old commmunities. In fact, it was even more likely to happen for those. More loose guilds are generally built around the content they play, so the issues like this just do not happen that often. It's the close-knit communities that are build not around the types of content but around personal relations between players, and feelings of community and friendship. And it's exactly those guilds that ended up in the worst situation. Unless, of course, they accidentally already had enough of hardcore players to help others out. But, suprise surprise, GW2 being what it is, hardcore players weren't all that common, and it was completely not surprising to see a guild of active 50-100 players to have only 2-3 hardcores. And more often than not, those 2-3 people simply were not enough to jumpstart a guild raid group fast enough.
    Like i said, been there, done that.

    PS: any time where the game creates a case where game goals and community/friendship bonds conflict, it always ends ugly. It's practically a lose/lose situation. No matter what happens, it won't end well.

    I have the exact opposite experience of close-knit guild communities that barely had many hardcore players that started raiding and found enjoyment in it. Including players that never even run Fractals and barely run Dungeons before starting to Raid as a group. But that requires actual feelings of community and friendship between guild members and not be total strangers that just happen to share a chat room. Because a true supporting community will both have players that help others get better, and those others try more to become better. If this community is full of selfish and arrogant players then it will simply fail.

    And then when the game stopped offering content for said guilds to do together, they also turned into chat rooms because there was barely anything to do together anymore. Even worse when we found out about Discord, as now we simply talk on Discord instead of logging to chat in-game, why idle in LA or do some mindless farm while chatting in-game, when you can chat on Discord while you do something actually fun and engaging?

    Been there done that.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Because, out of all the active players:

    • half or more would not be interested in the content at all
    • many of the remaining ones interested in the content would not be skilled enough to run it
    • of those, many would not be interested in putting a lot of effort into learning.
    • teaching the unskilled that are still interested in learning would take time

    There are easy Raids and even Strike Missions to bridge the gap there is no need to start from the hardest Raids directly. Furthermore, since Strike Missions are new and more are added on a regular basis, veteran/experienced players would want to run them anyway. In some time the guild can get at least 10 players together to start their instanced content experience and eventually get into Raids.

    It's not like a group of 10 players that have played together for months or even years can't go and start raiding by themselves and in that case all your listed drawbacks go away. But yes all those apply for the impatient and those in guilds that do not have tight communities that can try things together, as a guild.

    All that happened even in guilds with very tight and old commmunities. In fact, it was even more likely to happen for those. More loose guilds are generally built around the content they play, so the issues like this just do not happen that often. It's the close-knit communities that are build not around the types of content but around personal relations between players, and feelings of community and friendship. And it's exactly those guilds that ended up in the worst situation. Unless, of course, they accidentally already had enough of hardcore players to help others out. But, suprise surprise, GW2 being what it is, hardcore players weren't all that common, and it was completely not surprising to see a guild of active 50-100 players to have only 2-3 hardcores. And more often than not, those 2-3 people simply were not enough to jumpstart a guild raid group fast enough.
    Like i said, been there, done that.

    PS: any time where the game creates a case where game goals and community/friendship bonds conflict, it always ends ugly. It's practically a lose/lose situation. No matter what happens, it won't end well.

    My guild is a tight-knit community of mostly casuals. Majority of them are not in t4 fractals and have just been learning strikes. We all do raid training and try to clear them together and have a huge blast. Some come there with less optimal builds and our comps arent meta, but we always manage to improve, and people have gotten into gearing up their characters and making new builds to help out more.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's amazing how hard people will argue that these good raiding communities don't exist in any reasonable level that they are accessible to the 'regular' player to push their agenda.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's amazing how hard people will argue that these good raiding communities don't exist in any reasonable level that they are accessible to the 'regular' player to push their agenda.

    Maybe the difference lies in the differences of what the term "reasonable level" means for you and for them.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    At the end of the day raid's in THIS game were a pointless endeavor. The proof is in the lack of resources, the disbanding of the raid dev team and our own internal analysis. They are hardcore about LW so they really should have doubled down and put more effort into framing that as the next evolution of MMO's. Its all about the sell. Each raid could have been a LW release (minus a few raid mechanics) and the entire community would be playing/experiencing that content continuously since then. Its beyond a missed opportunity. ARENANET really needs to work on the vision of their game.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's amazing how hard people will argue that these good raiding communities don't exist in any reasonable level that they are accessible to the 'regular' player to push their agenda.

    Maybe the difference lies in the differences of what the term "reasonable level" means for you and for them.

    No doubt ... I'm of the opinion that if people can't find enough people to raid with, the expectations are too high, the criteria too restrictive, or the effort to find them too low. Exclusive behaviours in an MMO are a self-extinction mechanic after all.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    At the end of the day raid's in THIS game were a pointless endeavor. The proof is in the lack of resources, the disbanding of the raid dev team and our own internal analysis. They are hardcore about LW so they really should have doubled down and put more effort into framing that as the next evolution of MMO's. Its all about the sell.

    What indeed was a terrible idea was shifting so many resources into other game projects which all failed, not leaving enough resources to properly support all avenues of GW2, from LW to WvW to PvP to Fractals and Raids, and then after massive layoffs shifting all remaining resources into the lowest common denominator, that being LW, since when the game is doing fairly badly financially.

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    Each raid could have been a LW release (minus a few raid mechanics) and the entire community would be playing/experiencing that content continuously since then. Its beyond a missed opportunity. ARENANET really needs to work on the vision of their game.

    No, a large part of the community would have left since then, as it's doing since a year now with that being the case.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

    That's why the common recommendation is to join a guild or training discord, where both the time issue is managed and the players interested are funneled for the desired content. Yes, the in-game LFG is not good for this by simple reason of declining players due to lack of new content in this area. There is no waiting for players to the extent you are mentioning when you have organized guild raid times.

    Sorry but raids where never advertised as accessible for everyone at every point in time when ever they want. It was and is meant to be the most challenging content in this game for originally organized groups of players. The fact players have gotten good enough to PUG this content does not mean this is the best way to access it.

    As far as what the definition of reasonable might be? It's actually as little as joining or finding a guild which does raids and raid trainings. I see raids and taking new players regularly mentioned in guild advertisements in game. The very sub-forum here has current and regular guilds looking for new players. All it takes is keeping your eyes open and joining such a guild. This might be a tad tougher on NA versus EU since the NA raiding scene has taken a far heavier hit than the EU one.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

    That's why the common recommendation is to join a guild or training discord, where both the time issue is managed and the players interested are funneled for the desired content. Yes, the in-game LFG is not good for this by simple reason of declining players due to lack of new content in this area. There is no waiting for players to the extent you are mentioning when you have organized guild raid times.

    Sorry but raids where never advertised as accessible for everyone at every point in time when ever they want. It was and is meant to be the most challenging content in this game for originally organized groups of players. The fact players have gotten good enough to PUG this content does not mean this is the best way to access it.

    As far as what the definition of reasonable might be? It's actually as little as joining or finding a guild which does raids and raid trainings. I see raids and taking new players regularly mentioned in guild advertisements in game. The very sub-forum here has current and regular guilds looking for new players. All it takes is keeping your eyes open and joining such a guild. This might be a tad tougher on NA versus EU since the NA raiding scene has taken a far heavier hit than the EU one.

    You are missing my point. I'm not talking about accessibility in term of the skill level or the challenge (That is not the problem I am point since the beginning of my post). It's about getting the players. Sure, you can get on a discord for raids (Raid Academy, etc), but that does not change the fact that getting into a raid will be faster. Yes it does make it easier, but not faster.

    This is a huge deterrent to every single people that had a discussion with me in game regarding the # of players. Seems like on the forum I get the complete opposite!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020

    @A R W E N.6895 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

    That's why the common recommendation is to join a guild or training discord, where both the time issue is managed and the players interested are funneled for the desired content. Yes, the in-game LFG is not good for this by simple reason of declining players due to lack of new content in this area. There is no waiting for players to the extent you are mentioning when you have organized guild raid times.

    Sorry but raids where never advertised as accessible for everyone at every point in time when ever they want. It was and is meant to be the most challenging content in this game for originally organized groups of players. The fact players have gotten good enough to PUG this content does not mean this is the best way to access it.

    As far as what the definition of reasonable might be? It's actually as little as joining or finding a guild which does raids and raid trainings. I see raids and taking new players regularly mentioned in guild advertisements in game. The very sub-forum here has current and regular guilds looking for new players. All it takes is keeping your eyes open and joining such a guild. This might be a tad tougher on NA versus EU since the NA raiding scene has taken a far heavier hit than the EU one.

    You are missing my point. I'm not talking about accessibility in term of the skill level or the challenge (That is not the problem I am point since the beginning of my post). It's about getting the players. Sure, you can get on a discord for raids (Raid Academy, etc), but that does not change the fact that getting into a raid will be faster. Yes it does make it easier, but not faster.

    No, I am saying that joining a guild which does raids on a regular basis, or a discord will cut down the time it takes to organize 10 players. At worst you might have to fill up a few remaining spots as a guild IF not all members have time. Or the opposite worst case you have to MANY players and not everyone can join for a run.

    This is NOT about difficulty. It literally is about organizing players. The fact that this is more efficient and productive as far as progressing and learning raids is just an added bonus.

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    This is a huge deterrent to every single people that had a discussion with me in game regarding the # of players. Seems like on the forum I get the complete opposite!

    and who have you been talking to exactly? Players who raid regularly, or those who do not? Might want to consider who you are getting your info from. Yes, players who are not raiding and try to make a 10 people party from scratch WILL face issues, especially when they are clueless where to best recruit players (or how). Then again, there are guilds even now that start from scratch and progress through all the raids. I got to know one 3 months back and they were on their way to clear W1-4 and far behind the casual guild I am in (not counting my raid static guild which is very advanced).

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2020

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

    Reasonable ... willingness to find one of the many guilds dedicated to raiding filled with people who want to raid and organize raids.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

    Reasonable ... willingness to find one of the many guilds dedicated to raiding filled with people who want to raid and organize raids.

    See my sig for what i think about how reasonable it is.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

    Reasonable ... willingness to find one of the many guilds dedicated to raiding filled with people who want to raid and organize raids.

    See my sig for what i think about how reasonable it is.

    Cool ... I don't get your point. Are you trying to say that you are 'forced' into playing with people if you follow my definition of what is reasonable? That's a "you" issue then.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Cool ... I don't get your point.

    I know. You never do.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Eponet.4829Eponet.4829 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This is actually a big issue here. GW2s mechanics ans combat system, as unique and great it may be with lack of traditional trinity and build freedom and everything, leads to an insane performance gap between players.

    I can't recall a single MMORPG I have played where player performance was this spread appart.

    I can.

    When I played World of Warcraft our guild had a death knight who seemed to spend most of each encounter dead. She contributed pretty much nothing except scaling the fight hp higher.

    In Final Fantasy 14 in some encounters people can not only contribute very little, but can instead wipe a group within the first couple of minutes.

    The gap between the best and worst players in every MMO is pretty much completely unrelated to builds, but more to do with how much a single person can screw over everyone else on mechanics, the worst player would find a way to significantly underperform in a one button completely buildless game.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eponet.4829 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This is actually a big issue here. GW2s mechanics ans combat system, as unique and great it may be with lack of traditional trinity and build freedom and everything, leads to an insane performance gap between players.

    I can't recall a single MMORPG I have played where player performance was this spread appart.

    I can.

    When I played World of Warcraft our guild had a death knight who seemed to spend most of each encounter dead. She contributed pretty much nothing except scaling the fight hp higher.

    In Final Fantasy 14 in some encounters people can not only contribute very little, but can instead wipe a group within the first couple of minutes.

    The gap between the best and worst players in every MMO is pretty much completely unrelated to builds, but more to do with how much a single person can screw over everyone else on mechanics, the worst player would find a way to significantly underperform in a one button completely buildless game.

    Performance gap and being clueless about fight mechanics are completely separate things. In most MMOs being clueless about encounter can lead to wipe. In GW2, you need to deal with that in addition to a performance gap that is much wider than in other games.

    That final fantasy 14 example? That person that's contributing little, while being way below average player as far as FF XIV is concerned, is likely still doing a greater percentage of expected dps than an average casual in GW2. And an average casual in FFXIV will do a quarter to half of the damage of the more experienced players, not one-tenth like here.

    It's not the gap between the best and the worst player that is a problem. It's the gap between the best and the average that is an issue.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭

    Just ignore the troll. If you do not engage, they will go back to their bridge. Again remember there are two groups of players, those who run meta builds and know their rotations, about 5% of the player base, which does 10 times the dps of the other 95%. I would estimate 50% of players think they are the 5%, which means they think their opinions matter and are good ideas.

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    Just ignore the troll. If you do not engage, they will go back to their bridge. Again remember there are two groups of players, those who run meta builds and know their rotations, about 5% of the player base, which does 10 times the dps of the other 95%. I would estimate 50% of players think they are the 5%, which means they think their opinions matter and are good ideas.

    Where do you get your numbers from?
    Not being offensive rn i just want to know if there is a way to know how many players actually do raids

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Performance gap and being clueless about fight mechanics are completely separate things. In most MMOs being clueless about encounter can lead to wipe. In GW2, you need to deal with that in addition to a performance gap that is much wider than in other games.

    That final fantasy 14 example? That person that's contributing little, while being way below average player as far as FF XIV is concerned, is likely still doing a greater percentage of expected dps than an average casual in GW2. And an average casual in FFXIV will do a quarter to half of the damage of the more experienced players, not one-tenth like here.

    It's not the gap between the best and the worst player that is a problem. It's the gap between the best and the average that is an issue.

    Since I've never played FFXIV do you have any kind of data to back that up? Not disputing that there is such a difference between the two games, just interested in where the comparison is coming from. Second, given how the damage difference between good dps (not top, but still more than enough to beat any content) and someone just using auto-attack is very small it must be that those bringing such low damage numbers are doing something wrong. It's not about following rotations either, because simply auto-attacking doesn't require rotations, this leads me to believe that the reason the gap is large in GW2 is due to extreme laziness and has very little (if anything at all) to do with skill.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2020

    It's the whole package. Rotations is only the last step.
    FF XIV does not let you select your build. Traits unlock automatically as you level up. Most skills unlock automatically as you level up, and the rest you obtain progressing through the class storyline.
    FF XIV does not let you selest your gear statset. Each class gets their own stat sets, and, while there's sometimes some choice between picking the same ilevel stat set with different secondary stat set choices, the end difference between those choices is relatively minimal, within1-2 % or something. You can finish customizing the set with materia (which most casual players don't do, or do it in non-optimal way), but that's also maybe around 1% difference. In the end it's not surprising to see a difference between optimized and non-optimized gear within the same ilevel to be in total, when counting both those things still below 1%
    Even getting the savage raid gear (which at the moment the raid releases is an upgrade over what casuals can get) still offers only very minimal advantage over the more common gear everyone else uses.
    So in the end the difference is limited only to rotation and doing mechanics. Your autoattack example above? That's exactly this - a difference of only rotation and doing mechanics (because you already assume there the person has a proper gear and build).
    Notice, that even with rotation FF XIV is a bit easier than gw2, by the way. That's due to two things: first, there's no "hidden" skills whose cooldown you need to track in your mind. Second, most skills are under a global cooldown mechanic. A lot of gw2 rotations suffer from being very dependant on how fast and precise you can be with skill activation. Global cooldown in FF XIV removes a lot of that issue. Also, attack chains are done differently, and it's way easier to see when you're about to cancel the last (and most damaging) skill in the chain than it is in GW2.
    I'd also say that FF XIV is better when it comes to clearly marking mechanics (and to teaching those mechanics to people that go through the story), but that may just be me.
    Oh, and also, while people do use to stack usually as well, it's mostly for heals, and some classes especilly are widely known (and memed) for staying away from it. That's because the buffs are not as important part of dps as in GW2 (they are also not so limited in range).

    Edit: there's an example:
    https://imgur.com/fZ6FKUw
    That's a log from level 80 raid i managed to find that illustrates the situation. Notice, that's the "normal" raid, meaning it's the one meant for casuals, it's not the "savage" version. It's also from previous patch, meaning at this point it's several months old (and it's also the first encounter of the last set of four). Which means that practically anyone that managed to get to level 80 would be doing it. That also means that, yes, you can use the logs to see how it works for the whole population, because, unlike with gw2Raidar for example, there's only very small selection bias here. The pre-selection bias here being that logs are made of only succesful attempts. But then, on this encounter most attempts are succesful by now.

    From top you have: Ninja, Dancer, Red Mage, Gunbreaker (tank), Scholar (healer), Machinist, Paladin (tank), White Mage (healer). The percentage numbers on the left are the percentage ratings of your dps within your class (the higher the better). So, the top dps is at 92% of all Ninjas (so, very high, with the dps differences at the top being relatively small, the smaller the higher you get). The third dps is only at 27% of all Red Mages (this is low, as you can guess - additionally Red Mages are, in general, one of the lower dps classes). The fourth dps (the sixth person in the table, below one tank and one healer), is at only 7% within his class (which dps wise is also somewhere near the bottom of the classes). I think i don't need to tell you that 7% is very, very bad.
    The top dps in gw2 would be definitely solid raid tier. The Red Mage and Machinist would not qualify (with the Machinist being at the very bottom of the barrel even in the casual crowd). And yet, as you can see, the Red Mage does as much as half as the top player's dps, while the Machinist does a third of it.

    Notice that if you added players that don't qualify for the encounter, the results would not be much different. Or rather, would be, but only because the worse players would spend most of their time during encounter dead. The machinist dps you can see in this logs is literally something you can achieve by using skills at random, it's really hard to get any lower as long as you do press something.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So in the end the difference is limited only to rotation and doing mechanics. Your autoattack example above? That's exactly this - a difference of only rotation and doing mechanics (because you already assume there the person has a proper gear and build).

    I guess that's the first step, the game telling players if they have "proper gear and build", FFXIV does this, GW2 doesn't. The simplest way to do this (without changing how gear acquisition works which would be a massive undertaking) is to add something that can "show" how good your gear is, as a tiny first step showing (instead of AP while in an instance) your Power, since Power is the stat that affects DPS the most.

    Notice, that even with rotation FF XIV is a bit easier than gw2, by the way. That's due to two things: first, there's no "hidden" skills whose cooldown you need to track in your mind. Second, most skills are under a global cooldown mechanic.

    The first problem can be solved, somewhat. Like this: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81506/suggestion-showing-cooldowns-of-skills-not-currently-available
    The second one is very hard to "solve" as it's at the very core of the game, although adding a tiny global cooldown so 99% of the players don't even notice it exists, wouldn't really hurt the game.

    The top dps in gw2 would be definitely solid raid tier.

    Given how groups in GW2 succeed in Raids with their players being at around 50%, or even lower, from the global top, then it's not important at all to use players that are in any way close to the top 90%.

    The Red Mage and Machinist would not qualify (with the Machinist being at the very bottom of the barrel even in the casual crowd). And yet, as you can see, the Red Mage does as much as half as the top player's dps, while the Machinist does a third of it.

    Well since gw2raidar is now dead I had to search a bit harder to find any relevant information. However judging by my group's logs (all those that succeeded) we were above 30% and below 50% of the global total on gw2raidar. This means high percentages aren't really required to succeed in Raids, depending on your average, we had players reaching as high as 70% or 80% so you can understand that since the group's total was under 50% and above 30% (gw2raidar didn't track 40%) that we had a great variety in DPS in the group and probably had someone at 7% of the global a lot of the time.

    This is from Twin Largos about a year ago (May 2019):
    according to gw2raidar 15,886 is the lowest tier (30%) average dps and 26,144 is the 99% percentile, meaning the difference between top and bottom (success) is very similar to the difference between the Ninja and the Red Mage. 19373 is at 70%

    GW2: 26144 = 99%, 15886 = 30%
    FFXIV: 6.68m = 92%, 3.92m = 27%

    At least when comparing the boss you posted with Twin Largos. Btw, it's probably the Mirage stats

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2020

    I did specifically mention Raidar when i was talking about selection bias. The difference is that Raidar is for raid content, and so generally only a small part of the game population ever gets logged (and, obviously, it's heavily skewed towards the top). On the other hand the encounter i brought up, while it's called a "raid", is a casual content meant for everyone and being done by everyone (the "normal" difficulty is the easy mode. The "savage" version would be the normal raid tier). It's comparable to doing logs in gw2 not off Twin Largos, but off a world boss.

    The "30%" in Raidar is still several times higher than gw2 average. (the "average", the real 50%, is the level the devs said is 10x lower than the top). But 7% on fflogs is indeed very close to bottom 7% among the whole level 80 players of that class. You need to understand that difference.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    The "30%" in Raidar is still several times higher than gw2 average. (the "average", the real 50%, is the level the devs said is 10x lower than the top). But 7% on fflogs is indeed very close to bottom 7% among the whole level 80 players of that class. You need to understand that difference.

    I already talked about that, the "gw2 average" and how a player using only auto-attacks in a Raid encounter will out-dps this so called "gw2 average". The gw2 average is obviously very low but that's thanks to laziness. I mean come on it's not like you need to bring your 30% when fighting the Shadow Behemoth, just stand back and auto-attack it or watch something on your second monitor or whatever. This is why that developer comment about the average being 10x lower than the top is a rather useless bit of information, it doesn't take into account skill, or even gear, since neither of those is responsible for such a massive reduction in damage numbers. Laziness and boredom are

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2020

    laziness and boredom are not unique to gw2. If they were the main reason for low dps numbers, you would see the same level of discrepancies in other games as well. And yet somehow you don't.

    The 7% player in my example is the equivalent of someone at the bottom of a world boss dps list.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.