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The biggest barrier to raids

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  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

    He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

    It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

    That's NOT HIM TELL YOU WHAT PLAYERS FIND FUN ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation? Maybe you don't understand what that manifesto is telling you? I don't know but it's apparent you need to follow better to understand what people are saying.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    This would imply that the issue and group separation is binary between skilled and unskilled players. It is not. Unfortunately it gets discussed way to often that way.

    The only maybe binary separation here is between players who know how to group to achieve goals, and players who do not (either know or deliberately decide to ignore it).

    Maybe. It still doesn't change what i mentioned before. In the exact opposition to what yann.1946 said, people still do prefer to group with like-minded players, and are unwilling to group with players of too differing playstyles.

    The adjustment made by yann.1946 simply corrected the uneducated earlier statement.

    And turned it into completely untrue statement. Great correction there.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

    He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

    It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

    That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

    No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

    Maybe you don't understand what that manifesto is telling you? I don't know but it's apparent you need to follow better to understand what people are saying.

    Maybe you don't understand that he said has nothing to do with the manifesto?
    I don't know but it's apparent you need to follow better to understand what people are saying.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

    He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

    It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

    That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

    No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

    It's not? OK great ... what is it then? Seems to me that his interpretation of it is spot on ... what's yours? I still don't see how that statement is him telling you what people should find fun ... that itself doesn't make any sense. He's not telling you what players should find fun. He's saying how the game is designed for people to enjoy playing that way. If you don't enjoy playing that way, it's not the game is wrong here .. it's that you choose the wrong game. That's why the manifesto exists in the first place ... so people know what they are getting into when they start playing the game. Maybe you ignored it .. that's at your peril, not the game.

    The contrast between how raids work and Anet's original intent for how people should interact with the game is why raids are so problematic.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

    He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

    It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

    That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

    No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

    It's not? OK great ... what is it then?

    It's @Cristalyan.5728 own opinion that's what it is.

    Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see?

    In order to Raid you do not need to join a -raid- guild. You do not need to adapt any schedule, you do not need to train before you can raid. You do not need any of that to successfully Raid, all you need is 9 other players to play with and have fun with.

    The manifesto clearly states: we don't want you to prepare to have fun

    @Cristalyan.5728 equates joining a guild and learning how to play the game (or Raids) as "preparing to have fun", I don't, I find great pleasure in learning how to play a game, especially if it involves learning how to play with other people. Learning how to play isn't preparing to have fun, it's part of the fun. That's part of the fun and his opinion has nothing at all to do with that line from the manifesto.

    The contrast between how raids work and Anet's original intent for how people should interact with the game is why raids are so problematic.

    I guess getting from level 1 to level 80 and learning gradually how to play, how to dodge, how to play this game, how to earn loot, unlocking elite specializations, earning mastery points, training mastery abilities, was also not fun for you (as it was "preparing you"), which begs the question, why are you playing this game?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

    He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

    It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

    That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

    No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

    It's not? OK great ... what is it then?

    It's @Cristalyan.5728 own opinion that's what it is.

    OK, but I'm asking you since you are claiming that his interpretation of the manifesto "we don't want you to prepare to have fun" is him telling other players what they find fun .... because it's not ... it's a reference to the contrast between how raids are implemented and the original intent of the game for players that want to play so they 'don't have to prepare to have fun'. If you don't agree with that ... then you have to explain how you think the manifesto DOES fit in with how raids are implemented.

    The biggest problem for raids ... the fact that raids are implemented in a way that doesn't appeal to the people that originally adopted the game because it contrasts with the manifesto that the game was designed around in the first place.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

    He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

    It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

    That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

    No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

    It's not? OK great ... what is it then?

    It's @Cristalyan.5728 own opinion that's what it is.

    OK, but I'm asking you since you are claiming that someone's interpretation of the manifesto "we don't want you to prepare to have fun" is that person telling other players what they find fun .... because it's not ... it's a reference to the contrast between how raids are implemented and the original intent of the game for players that want to play so they 'don't have to prepare to have fun'.

    Read the post you quoted... the answer is there.
    But I will try one more time, he clearly tells me that when I learn how to play this game, I'm preparing to have fun and not having fun. The manifesto says "we don't want you to prepare to have fun", I'm not preparing to have fun, I'm having fun. The fact that he misinterprets that quote from the manifesto (and you as well) to suite your agenda, even though it's far from the correct one is rather telling.

    And you forgot to answer my question, why are you still playing this game. Did you find fun learning how to dodge? Did you find fun getting your first exotic items? Did you have fun unlocking your first mount? Did you have fun learning how to fly your skyscale? Did you have fun getting to level 80? Or was it all "preparing to have fun". Because clearly you have a very narrow interpretation of the phrase "preparing to have fun"

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    Again, I'm not asking you to interpret the manifesto for how you play the game or what you find fun ... not relevant.

    I'm asking you to explain how you think the manifesto DOES fit in with how raids are implemented since you disagree with the idea that it does not. The manifesto idea is that players can step into content and be successful without lots of the preparation other games make players do. Do you believe that players can just step into raids and not prepare and be successful? I don't ... especially at the levels that the original adopters of the game experienced. I'm certain many other players don't either. I'm certain that's why raids are not well received by players, supported by Anet or see continuous development.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    You forgot what you yourself said?

    He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

    He tells me that I don't have fun, but I "prepare to have fun", in a sense he tells me what I find fun. I don't really like when someone gets so offensive to tell me what I find fun, as that's clearly a matter of personal opinion.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    Let's not get lost in arguing about things that aren't relevant to the topic or are emotionally charged. The point he is making there is that there is a contrast between what Anet originally intended for the game, how the game delivered that to the original adopters and how that is different than how raids were implemented and finally, why that causes all the issues we have with them.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Let's not get lost in arguing about things that aren't relevant to the topic or are emotionally charged. The point he is making there is that there is a contrast between what Anet originally intended for the game and how it was released for the original adapters and how raids were implemented and why that causes all the issues we have with them.

    No the point he is making is telling others what they find fun. So do you finally understand that you were wrong and he did or not? Anything else you say is irrelevant, I made a comment, you started a post fiesta of derailment, harassment and off remarks. Now you can finally answer your own question and go on with it.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    OK then ... it's clear you are too focused on whatever 'offense' you have taken. I think the meaning of the discussion was pretty clear until that point.

    What Anet originally intended for the game, how the game delivered that to the original adopters and how that is different than how raids were implemented is why we are in the current state.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    This would imply that the issue and group separation is binary between skilled and unskilled players. It is not. Unfortunately it gets discussed way to often that way.

    The only maybe binary separation here is between players who know how to group to achieve goals, and players who do not (either know or deliberately decide to ignore it).

    Maybe. It still doesn't change what i mentioned before. In the exact opposition to what yann.1946 said, people still do prefer to group with like-minded players, and are unwilling to group with players of too differing playstyles.

    The adjustment made by yann.1946 simply corrected the uneducated earlier statement.

    And turned it into completely untrue statement. Great correction there.

    As I said earlier, I was not the person making the correction.

    While you are correct that people have better experiences when joining groups with the same mindset. The point is that, as you have pointed out, that some people choose the completion of content over joining people with the same mindset.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, you coming and basically saying:
    "Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

    is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

    I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

    Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

    And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard - YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

    As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

    We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

    It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

    The people who have fun theorie crafting, speed running etc are also original adopters to the game.

    From the reasoninging you're using we could argue that legendaries shouldn't exist. Or pvp etc.

    To me the manifesto doesn't say you should be able to do all content in the game without practice. But that the mayority should be able to be done without it.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, you coming and basically saying:
    "Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

    is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

    I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

    Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

    And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard - YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

    As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

    We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

    It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

    The people who have fun theorie crafting, speed running etc are also original adopters to the game.

    To me the manifesto doesn't say you should be able to do all content in the game without practice. But that the mayority should be able to be done without it.

    Sure ... but that doesn't change the fact that the game is designed in a way that to adhere to the manifesto when it was released. I'm not debating that even though the game was designed a certain way that people who didn't like that way still adopted the game. That happens all the time. The point is just that the game is designed and delivers in a specific way originally that doesn't follow with how raids were implemented.

    And I agree ... the manifesto to me is very obviously intended to indicate that players should be able to set into content without having much preparation and be successful ... hence why it's so casual friendly. That's NOT what raids do.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    While you are correct that people have better experiences when joining groups with the same mindset. The point is that, as you have pointed out, that some people choose the completion of content over joining people with the same mindset.

    But only when the latter would conflict with the former. It does not make them unwilling to join with like-minded individuals. It just makes them unwilling to fail.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    While you are correct that people have better experiences when joining groups with the same mindset. The point is that, as you have pointed out, that some people choose the completion of content over joining people with the same mindset.

    But only when the latter would conflict with the former. It does not make them unwilling to join with like-minded individuals. It just makes them unwilling to fail.

    these things are not mutually exclusive.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, you coming and basically saying:
    "Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

    is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

    I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

    Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

    And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard - YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

    As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

    We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

    It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

    The people who have fun theorie crafting, speed running etc are also original adopters to the game.

    To me the manifesto doesn't say you should be able to do all content in the game without practice. But that the mayority should be able to be done without it.

    Sure ... but that doesn't change the fact that the game is designed in a way that to adhere to the manifesto when it was released. I'm not debating that even though the game was designed a certain way that people who didn't like that way still adopted the game. That happens all the time. The point is just that the game is designed and delivers in a specific way originally that doesn't follow with how raids were implemented.

    And I agree ... the manifesto to me is very obviously intended to indicate that players should be able to set into content without having much preparation and be successful ... hence why it's so casual friendly. That's NOT what raids do.

    No, the manifesto means you should ba able to get into most content without much grinding. thats what the original was about. (or that's atleast my own equally valid interpretation). You're working with the idea that you're interpretation of the manifesto is correct, even though your interpretation is indirect contrast with some aspects of original gamedesign. (originally dungeons where seen as quite hard and had to be prepared for and you cant just jump in pvp. Legendaries where always grindy even though grinding is against the manifesto.)

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, you coming and basically saying:
    "Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

    is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

    I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

    Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

    And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard - YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

    As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

    We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

    It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

    Id argue that the current living world model breaks the commitment to players just as much as raids ever have done.
    Firstly, as I mentioned above, 90% of achievements in the living story are 'do this event 20 times' 'kill 500 of these mobs' which directly go againt the manifesto.
    Furthermore the manifesto promised that new content wouldnt leave old content obsolete which it absolutely does.
    Shortly after launch anet made a promise to rework old content regularly to keep it relevant, and never followed through, instead choosing to release new maps.

    I dont feel the current living world model is bad for the game, its probably better than anets original ideas, but it does break all the initial promises anet made. The argument 'it should never have existed because it breaks the manifesto' just doesnt hold up when you look at the game as a whole. I think raids were absolutely beneficial for the long term health of the game, and the game is worse off due to their , and every other side modes, abandonment.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure what the manifesto has to do with raids. The only barrier has to do with the players themselves as you have one group that wants experienced players for smooth runs and another group of inexperienced players that do not want to create their own groups with players like themselves but instead want to group with the experienced players.

    And for those who continue to quote the manifesto video and take things out of context:

    Hey folks,

    I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

    When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

    So what exactly does that mean:

    • The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

    • Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

    There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

    Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

    Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    TLDR; it's a fair point to say "joining a raiding guild and adhering to a schedule sounds like too much for me." The vast majority of GW2 doesn't need that, and arguably that's what makes GW2 special. That being said, I think this sort of barrier to entry is fine. Deal with it, or accept that raiding is too much work for you.

    How I see this thread:

    (1) OP says that gathering 10 people is the highest barrier to raiding.
    (2) a bunch of other people point out that this barrier can be overcome by joining a guild and (ugh) conforming to schedules/standards of performance/etc,
    (3) OP (and others) just dismiss (2) as something they don't want to do, or that it simply represents a burden they do not wish to carry.

    I think this is one of those situations where everyone is right, to an extent.

    Those of us who are part of raiding communities know that the 10-person requirement can be pretty easily overcome, and that's why we suggest it to everyone like OP who supposedly has everything in place other than 9 other people to do it with.

    While we are correct in that there is a reliable solution to OP's issue, OP (and like-minded folk) do have a point when they say things like "joining a specific kind of community for a specific purpose, or adhering to a set schedule is more than I want to do."

    GW2 is quite special in how impromptu a lot of content can be. Although the game described by the original manifesto is long gone in many respects, ANet did successfully design a mostly open world game where you don't always need super spot-on organization to get large encounters done. I, for one, have stuck with GW2 for as long as I have because I love how I can walk away (without totally torpedoing the group) from most content I'm doing should the need arise, and it's just as likely that when I jump back into the game I'll find a huge swath of content is complete-able with PUG LFGs or just open world hordes of players.

    So compared to what makes GW2 great for me and unique amongst its peers is not reflected by the basic standards of raiding. I get that.

    My response to that is "too bad." I don't think raids really have meaning outside of being the way that they are now (relatively higher barrier to entry, existing for those seeking challenges and risk of failure well beyond what the rest of PvE offers). If you can't find a guild you feel like adding to your list of 5, and you can't find a time that works for you, that's on you. I think it makes more sense for the game to tell you "hey this content might not be for you" more than you to demand that the content get watered down to the impromptu-able levels seen elsewhere in PvE.

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    the context which anet had when they said "we don't want you to prepare to have fun": that you do not have to play other content first, like farming gear or do other unfun things so you can play content x. aka: you do not need to prepare your character by doing kitten you do not like to get to the content you want to do. aka, you don't need to farm 50 times fractals first so you "unlock" (be it by a hard lock or gear requirements) wvw.

    how some players interpret it here in the thread: i don't have to prepare my character anywhere and i do not have to prepare my group.
    ...thats NOT what the manifesto is about at all. if you think it is, you are misinformed. stop taking it out of context.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, you coming and basically saying:
    "Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

    is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

    I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

    Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

    And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard - YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

    As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

    We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

    It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

    Id argue that the current living world model breaks the commitment to players just as much as raids ever have done.

    Maybe ... but that's a different thread topic don't you think? :wink:

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, you coming and basically saying:
    "Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

    is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

    I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

    Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

    And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

    Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard - YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

    As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

    We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

    It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

    The people who have fun theorie crafting, speed running etc are also original adopters to the game.

    To me the manifesto doesn't say you should be able to do all content in the game without practice. But that the mayority should be able to be done without it.

    Sure ... but that doesn't change the fact that the game is designed in a way that to adhere to the manifesto when it was released. I'm not debating that even though the game was designed a certain way that people who didn't like that way still adopted the game. That happens all the time. The point is just that the game is designed and delivers in a specific way originally that doesn't follow with how raids were implemented.

    And I agree ... the manifesto to me is very obviously intended to indicate that players should be able to set into content without having much preparation and be successful ... hence why it's so casual friendly. That's NOT what raids do.

    No, the manifesto means you should ba able to get into most content without much grinding.

    That's part of what I'm talking about when I say 'preparation".

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    It's @Cristalyan.5728 own opinion that's what it is.

    Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see?

    Maybe my Englysh is not good enough and you cannot understand - I'm not a native English - or maybe you refuse to understand. Look bellow what I quotted:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

    I answered to this statement. I repeated it because I wanted to made it clear. Unfortunately it seems that you misplaced it. It is not mine. It is the way recommended by a raider as the main way used by every ....

    In order to Raid you do not need to join a -raid- guild. You do not need to adapt any schedule, you do not need to train before you can raid. You do not need any of that to successfully Raid, all you need is 9 other players to play with and have fun with.

    I guess getting from level 1 to level 80 and learning gradually how to play, how to dodge, how to play this game, how to earn loot, unlocking elite specializations, earning mastery points, training mastery abilities, was also not fun for you (as it was "preparing you"), which begs the question, why are you playing this game?

    This last statement is brilliant - everything you named here is in fact playing the game. I made no preparations in order to do a map completion. I made no preparation in order to lvl up. I made no preparation to learn that not dodging means damage for me (or even deadh). I learned al this by playing. With the raids the things are different. I will do the raids if I ..... prepare before (I forgot to mention the activity of watching films on YouTube to see how to beat the raid and visits to sites with builds for every profession).

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    Good that you tell other players what they find fun. My greatest fun in this game has been clearing every single dungeon path with the same team, one by one, working together with very little prior experience. My greatest fun was going from level 1 to level 40 (was the max at that time) in fractals, again playing with the same people daily until we got there. The greatest fun was clearing the first Raid wing, Spirit Vale and especially killing Vale Guardian for the first time, with a group that never raided before and most started playing instanced content with Spirit Vale (yes half the members didn't even have dungeon or fractal experience) yet we succeeded and eventually cleared every single Heart of Thorns Raid from scratch and had great fun doing it.

    I don't tell you what is fun for you. This is NOT the point of my statement. I bet that for most of the players clearing a raid wing is fun. Clearing dungeon paths is fun etc. But not what is fun for you or others is the point. The point is the preparation needed for this fun. This preparation exists in most of the MMO's. ANet's team stated that this is a different game, and you won't be forced to prepare before in order to have fun. You can have fun from the moment you start to play - this was the affirmation. This was the reason you had 5 man teams in the beginning. This was the reason you did not have the "trinity" - to not be forced to wait (to prepare) in order to start something fun.

    Again - don't worry, I cannot afford to tell you what is fun. You decide this. I only brought into discussion the fracture between what the game should be according to the initial statement and intentions and what are in fact the raids. This fracture caused ... unfun.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    It's @Cristalyan.5728 own opinion that's what it is.

    Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see?

    Maybe my Englysh is not good enough and you cannot understand - I'm not a native English - or maybe you refuse to understand. Look bellow what I quotted:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

    I answered to this statement. I repeated it because I wanted to made it clear. Unfortunately it seems that you misplaced it. It is not mine. It is the way recommended by a raider as the main way used by every ....

    In order to Raid you do not need to join a -raid- guild. You do not need to adapt any schedule, you do not need to train before you can raid. You do not need any of that to successfully Raid, all you need is 9 other players to play with and have fun with.

    I guess getting from level 1 to level 80 and learning gradually how to play, how to dodge, how to play this game, how to earn loot, unlocking elite specializations, earning mastery points, training mastery abilities, was also not fun for you (as it was "preparing you"), which begs the question, why are you playing this game?

    This last statement is brilliant - everything you named here is in fact playing the game. I made no preparations in order to do a map completion. I made no preparation in order to lvl up. I made no preparation to learn that not dodging means damage for me (or even deadh). I learned al this by playing. With the raids the things are different. I will do the raids if I ..... prepare before (I forgot to mention the activity of watching films on YouTube to see how to beat the raid and visits to sites with builds for every profession).

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "we don't want you to prepare to have fun".

    Good that you tell other players what they find fun. My greatest fun in this game has been clearing every single dungeon path with the same team, one by one, working together with very little prior experience. My greatest fun was going from level 1 to level 40 (was the max at that time) in fractals, again playing with the same people daily until we got there. The greatest fun was clearing the first Raid wing, Spirit Vale and especially killing Vale Guardian for the first time, with a group that never raided before and most started playing instanced content with Spirit Vale (yes half the members didn't even have dungeon or fractal experience) yet we succeeded and eventually cleared every single Heart of Thorns Raid from scratch and had great fun doing it.

    I don't tell you what is fun for you. This is NOT the point of my statement. I bet that for most of the players clearing a raid wing is fun. Clearing dungeon paths is fun etc. But not what is fun for you or others is the point. The point is the preparation needed for this fun. This preparation exists in most of the MMO's. ANet's team stated that this is a different game, and you won't be forced to prepare before in order to have fun. You can have fun from the moment you start to play - this was the affirmation. This was the reason you had 5 man teams in the beginning. This was the reason you did not have the "trinity" - to not be forced to wait (to prepare) in order to start something fun.

    Again - don't worry, I cannot afford to tell you what is fun. You decide this. I only brought into discussion the fracture between what the game should be according to the initial statement and intentions and what are in fact the raids. This fracture caused ... unfun.

    Then let me clarify for you in more concise language. You dont need to prepare anything to attempt and play the raid other than finding 9 people. The comments that are telling you to join a guild and discord are giving you the easiest path to succeed at killing a boss. But it is not the only way. You can attempt and play with any build you have on and learn the encounter naturally just like you did with open world. People seem to conflate succeeding and attempt and playing a lot. Throw up an lfg stating all welcome and go at it. The requirements to attempt and play raids follows their manifesto quite well as the only requirement you need is to own the expansion and have the lions arch aerodrome discovered on your character.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    I don't tell you what is fun for you. This is NOT the point of my statement. I bet that for most of the players clearing a raid wing is fun. Clearing dungeon paths is fun etc. But not what is fun for you or others is the point. The point is the preparation needed for this fun.

    Exactly and for some reason you separate the "preparation" needed for Raids from the preparation needed for anything else, as if preparation itself is a bad thing. we don't want you to prepare to have fun doesn't mean "we don't want our players to prepare". Preparation is part of the fun, it's about the journey and not the destination.

    I guess getting from level 1 to level 80 and learning gradually how to play, how to dodge, how to play this game, how to earn loot, unlocking elite specializations, earning mastery points, training mastery abilities, was also not fun for you (as it was "preparing you"), which begs the question, why are you playing this game?

    This last statement is brilliant - everything you named here is in fact playing the game. I made no preparations in order to do a map completion. I made no preparation in order to lvl up. I made no preparation to learn that not dodging means damage for me (or even deadh). I learned al this by playing.

    You made no preparations (so you didn't get to level 80) before entering Heart of Thorns for the first time? I guess you wouldn't call unlocking mastery abilities "preparation" for map completion either, I wonder how you got those points that absolutely require some masteries to get to. You know, without preparing for them first.

    With the raids the things are different. I will do the raids if I ..... prepare before (I forgot to mention the activity of watching films on YouTube to see how to beat the raid and visits to sites with builds for every profession).

    @Shikaru.7618 really answered this part, but maybe it demands repeating, you do not need to watch films on youtube and you don't need to visit sites with builds to play Raids. You only absolutely need that if you want to run Raids with random strangers. If you DO have 9 other friends, you can run them together and adapt as you go. Adapt to the Raids by playing the game as you said. The rest of it is just a way to skip playing the game, same way you might search on the wiki for that last Point of Interest you are missing, or watch a youtube video of how to finish a hard jumping puzzle, or watch a youtube video on how to finish a specific story achievement. I guess those things that existed ON RELEASE are also against the manifesto and the design of the game.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    I don't tell you what is fun for you. This is NOT the point of my statement. I bet that for most of the players clearing a raid wing is fun. Clearing dungeon paths is fun etc. But not what is fun for you or others is the point. The point is the preparation needed for this fun.

    Exactly and for some reason you separate the "preparation" needed for Raids from the preparation needed for anything else, as if preparation itself is a bad thing. we don't want you to prepare to have fun doesn't mean "we don't want our players to prepare". Preparation is part of the fun, it's about the journey and not the destination.

    I guess getting from level 1 to level 80 and learning gradually how to play, how to dodge, how to play this game, how to earn loot, unlocking elite specializations, earning mastery points, training mastery abilities, was also not fun for you (as it was "preparing you"), which begs the question, why are you playing this game?

    This last statement is brilliant - everything you named here is in fact playing the game. I made no preparations in order to do a map completion. I made no preparation in order to lvl up. I made no preparation to learn that not dodging means damage for me (or even deadh). I learned al this by playing.

    You made no preparations (so you didn't get to level 80) before entering Heart of Thorns for the first time? I guess you wouldn't call unlocking mastery abilities "preparation" for map completion either, I wonder how you got those points that absolutely require some masteries to get to. You know, without preparing for them first.

    With the raids the things are different. I will do the raids if I ..... prepare before (I forgot to mention the activity of watching films on YouTube to see how to beat the raid and visits to sites with builds for every profession).

    @Shikaru.7618 really answered this part, but maybe it demands repeating, you do not need to watch films on youtube and you don't need to visit sites with builds to play Raids. You only absolutely need that if you want to run Raids with random strangers. If you DO have 9 other friends, you can run them together and adapt as you go. Adapt to the Raids by playing the game as you said. The rest of it is just a way to skip playing the game, same way you might search on the wiki for that last Point of Interest you are missing, or watch a youtube video of how to finish a hard jumping puzzle, or watch a youtube video on how to finish a specific story achievement. I guess those things that existed ON RELEASE are also against the manifesto and the design of the game.

    Worth clarifying that the random strangers you refer to are only the random strangers who specifically state they want meta builds or LI count there are plenty of strangers in the game that dont meet or demand these requirements they can play with.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    Then let me clarify for you in more concise language. You dont need to prepare anything to attempt and play the raid other than finding 9 people. The comments that are telling you to join a guild and discord are giving you the easiest path to succeed at killing a boss. But it is not the only way. You can attempt and play with any build you have on and learn the encounter naturally just like you did with open world. People seem to conflate succeeding and attempt and playing a lot. Throw up an lfg stating all welcome and go at it. The requirements to attempt and play raids follows their manifesto quite well as the only requirement you need is to own the expansion and have the lions arch aerodrome discovered on your character.

    LOOOL !! "You dont need to prepare anything to attempt and play the raid other than finding 9 people". Brilliant - as per my asura toon. A statement is true even if you push it to the limit. To clarify this, I will find another equivalent statement (something at the limit), maybe you will realise how ridiculous is what you said: "You don't need to prepare anything to attempt to reach Mars other than finding a good spaceship.

    The "everything is OK, excepting XYZ ... " makes me laugh. This is the usual approach of a politician. A bad one.

    But even from your statement you can see that finding other 9 people is something not covered by "you dont need to prepare anything ...". Exactly what the subject of this debate is: you need to find another 9 players for raid and this is very hard. This is the issue with your kind of statements - you wanted to disagree with the OP by validating his point of view.

    And by the way - attempting to play (and failing) is not fun. At least for me. If you are a fan of failing, OK. But if you like failing so much, I don't know how you can find some fun in success. Maybe this topic is not for you? From what I understood, the OP wants to succeed - this is his (and my) opinion about having fun.

    Attempting to play is preparation. And this preparation is something haunting the raids from the moment of launch. From more than 3 years. "Attempting to play" something for more than 3 years is not fun.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    And by the way - attempting to play (and failing) is not fun. At least for me. If you are a fan of failing, OK. But if you like failing so much, I don't know how you can find some fun in success. Maybe this topic is not for you? From what I understood, the OP wants to succeed - this is his (and my) opinion about having fun.

    and here we have the core difference between players who enjoy raiding, and those who do not.

    For some, failing, practicing and improving until one succeeds is fun. For others who hate any type of challenge, it is not. Simple as that.

    A lot of players have given advice on how the path to success can be made easier. Failing is a part of learning. Not only in this game, but in life in general.

    There is nothing wrong in not wanting to be challenged by a game which one plays for relaxation. It's completely backwards though to assume that failure on its own can not be fun, when it is such an integral part of the learning process.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Attempting to play is preparation. And this preparation is something haunting the raids from the moment of launch. From more than 3 years. "Attempting to play" something for more than 3 years is not fun.

    If someone attempts to play a certain type of content without success for 3 years, that is on the individual and not the content. We are not talking rocket science here or something which requires years of advanced degrees and education.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    For some, failing, practicing and improving until one succeeds is fun. For others who hate any type of challenge, it is not. Simple as that.

    A lot of players have given advice on how the path to success can be made easier. Failing is a part of learning. Not only in this game, but in life in general.

    Again the point of this is missed. It is not about who enjoy trying and trying and trying. It is about preparation to succeed. And gathering 10 persons together with the only sure reality being the try, is very hard. Why preparation? Because I saw many advice to watch films on Internet
    to better learn the mechanics. Advice to spend hours hitting the training golem to learn the rotation. Advice to go on special sites to find the optimum build for your class. And so on.

    Again - it may be possible that some players to enjoy the preparations. But this game has been launched with other ideas in mind. And the raids comes now against that ideas.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Attempting to play is preparation. And this preparation is something haunting the raids from the moment of launch. From more than 3 years. "Attempting to play" something for more than 3 years is not fun.

    If someone attempts to play a certain type of content without success for 3 years, that is on the individual and not the content. We are not talking rocket science here or something which requires years of advanced degrees and education.

    What are you saying? What individual? This is not individual content to blame the player. The debate is about how hard is to gather 10 individuals together. The raids are not individual content. It is content being designed for 10 man team and has nothing to do with the individual attempts. Why to blame the individuals?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Because I saw many advice to watch films on Internet

    Question: who do you think made those youtube videos? Are they developers with prior knowledge of the content? Or they are regular members of the community that played the content and THEN made those videos about it. If watching those videos was such a requirement (preparation), then newer videos with BETTER tactics wouldn't exist, after all everyone would prepare by watching the original and never question it. But they do, because tactics evolve over time and there are those that instead of watching a video and following to the letter, will try new things and improve over the previous tactic. All you need to do is find 9 similar minded people and go bang your heads on Raids without ever watching a video, just like those that make the videos do.

    If you want to be inconsiderate, rude, arrogant and selfish and go into other people's groups without having any prior knowledge and EXPECT them to walk you through it, then that's on you too. But you do not need that kind of knowledge if you are going to play with people you know, those other 9 people you play in Drizzlewood with, or those 9 other people you run meta events in Auric Basin or wherever else you do with them. Or you don't play any other content with 9 other people at the same time?

    Advice to spend hours hitting the training golem to learn the rotation. Advice to go on special sites to find the optimum build for your class.

    You can learn your rotation and make a working build while actually playing the game, going to special sites or using the golem is only used to speed up the process. Same way you can pretty much finish any story achievement or jumping puzzle without ever using a guide, by trial and error and practice, or you can "skip" that part and watch the video instead, that's still up to you.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    For some, failing, practicing and improving until one succeeds is fun. For others who hate any type of challenge, it is not. Simple as that.

    A lot of players have given advice on how the path to success can be made easier. Failing is a part of learning. Not only in this game, but in life in general.

    Again the point of this is missed. It is not about who enjoy trying and trying and trying. It is about preparation to succeed. And gathering 10 persons together with the only sure reality being the try, is very hard. Why preparation? Because I saw many advice to watch films on Internet
    to better learn the mechanics. Advice to spend hours hitting the training golem to learn the rotation. Advice to go on special sites to find the optimum build for your class. And so on.

    Again - it may be possible that some players to enjoy the preparations. But this game has been launched with other ideas in mind. And the raids comes now against that ideas.

    and again, gathering 10 players is not that hard when one is able of basic social interaction, etiquette and cooperation as well as knowing where to look.

    Nothing of what you said is required. No golem training, no builds, no nothing. They are certainly beneficial, but no beginner training will expect this, at least none that is grounded in reality of how players start out. There are guilds which take players as is and train them. Which is harder with players who have no prior experience in content outside of open world, but not impossible.

    Those players will gladly help out, give recommendations and guide a new player, without him every having to visit an external site. They might give advice which sites are beneficial for simplicity sake (for example telling someone after a training run which builds are easy and recommended), but those sites are tools for help, not necessities.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Again - it may be possible that some players to enjoy the preparations. But this game has been launched with other ideas in mind. And the raids comes now against that ideas.

    Not even going to comment on this, If you can't even read through the manifesto clarification which someone dug out, I won't bother arguing with you.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Attempting to play is preparation. And this preparation is something haunting the raids from the moment of launch. From more than 3 years. "Attempting to play" something for more than 3 years is not fun.

    If someone attempts to play a certain type of content without success for 3 years, that is on the individual and not the content. We are not talking rocket science here or something which requires years of advanced degrees and education.

    What are you saying? What individual? This is not individual content to blame the player. The debate is about how hard is to gather 10 individuals together. The raids are not individual content. It is content being designed for 10 man team and has nothing to do with the individual attempts. Why to blame the individuals?

    The content is for a group of players, yes. Being unable to adapt to the content or socialize in such a way that one is able to play with other to clear the content, is on each individual.

    I'm sorry. If someone has been trying to engage in this content for 3 years but been unsuccessful, that's on them. The reason for lack of success can be as simple as the person being to shy or unwilling to engage with others, up to being highly obtuse and unable of following basic advice.

    Every now and again new players (to raid content) who succeed at raiding write about how they got into the content, and it's most often always the same: found like minded players, trained, improved, had fun. Those stories have remained consistent throughout the years. Experienced raiders engaged in training runs see them repeat continually. If this has been a consistency for now close to 5 years, someone who is unable to emulate that is very likely themselves to blame.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    I tried to raid once, some party members it kind aremmind me that gw1 frienzy warrior that goes overextended and dies and complains about its party, he said was best cause his dps was best...

    So this is how i imagine dedicated raid players, theres 3 kind of raiders, the want to have fun, the organized and coherent ones, and then the meta gimmickers that fail if they dont have their gimmick group(i assume this last one afects most Raid groups mentality).
    IDK why people in this game assume the "this and that" is the only way to do stuff cause meta says so...

    I play for fun and i want to take the feeling on a rpg dungeons, not to show off.... not to lists ZOMG my dps is best yada yada in a PUG party.

    Note: i play herald healer rev or herald zerker/assain rev in pve

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    IDK why people in this game assume the "this and that" is the only way to do stuff cause meta says so...

    There are sufficient player who play their own comps. The issue becomes a problem when the group does not have the capacity to come up with a composition that covers the necessities. Or at least the content becomes a lot harder. Taking meta builds is just a simple approach for inexperienced players to make sure at least their composition should work.

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    I play for fun and i want to take the feeling on a rpg dungeons, not to show off.... not to lists ZOMG my dps is best yada yada in a PUG party.

    Perfectly fine. So do the other 9 people you might play with. As long as you bring value to the group and every one is happy, no issues.

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Note: i play herald healer rev or herald zerker/assain rev in pve

    If those builds fit into the group/squad you play with, more power to you.

  • (OP Here) By the way, I just wanted to point out that I already have a guild that does raid, I already have 2 discords for raids (so that I can actually find people to do raid). But guess what, downing the boss takes 5-10 minutes, getting the group takes 60 minutes.

    If that is not a barrier to raid, I don't know what to say. (Should I also point out that I have 7 complete builds on 4 different classes and that I did enjoy the gearing process since I didn't have to wait a single day on anyone to get the stuff done).

    And back to the point of my post, the biggest barrier to raid is getting 10 people in a party. You may agree or disagree with me on that, but being blind to that fact is non sens to me. Yes in a perfect world everyone has a schedule, are on time and get started at the right hour with minimal waiting time. Sadly that is not the reality for 95% (maybe 99%) of people trying to get into raids.

    Did you guys ever tried Raid Academy discord (you have to get on the discord, and wait for someone to post a raid training and then hope you are faster than 20+ people to get in the actual raid, and then wait again another 30-40 min to even get started). If you have 60 minutes to spare for waiting time to get into a 5 min fight, be my guest. Ignoring and trying to say that the barrier to raid is something other than getting the 10 people is crazy to me. (Just my 2 cents).

    Have a great day (By the way, I really like the discussion that is happening in this post)

  • Silmar Alech.4305Silmar Alech.4305 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    (OP Here) By the way, I just wanted to point out that I already have a guild that does raid, I already have 2 discords for raids (so that I can actually find people to do raid). But guess what, downing the boss takes 5-10 minutes, getting the group takes 60 minutes.

    This is exactly my raid experience. If I look back on my time spent on raids, for 60 minutes of time spent, there is only 5-10 minutes of actually being in combat. Whatever the other 50-55 minutes are, it's a 6:1 ratio of not playing the game to playing the game. I didn't continue raiding because of that, because this ratio is not fun.

    And I didn't tell about the time spent on watching Youtube videos for tactics or about the time getting gear and build - that's all extra time. It's just the PREPARING time of getting a group full and ready and actually starting one boss fight compared to the actual combat time that is a 6:1 ratio.

    Find the secret message: +++++++[>++++[>+>+++>++++>++++<<<<-]<-]>>>-.>-------.+++.+.------------.>++.<<<++++.>>++++++.>.<--..>++.-.<<<+.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    For some, failing, practicing and improving until one succeeds is fun. For others who hate any type of challenge, it is not. Simple as that.

    A lot of players have given advice on how the path to success can be made easier. Failing is a part of learning. Not only in this game, but in life in general.

    Again the point of this is missed. It is not about who enjoy trying and trying and trying. It is about preparation to succeed. And gathering 10 persons together with the only sure reality being the try, is very hard. Why preparation? Because I saw many advice to watch films on Internet
    to better learn the mechanics. Advice to spend hours hitting the training golem to learn the rotation. Advice to go on special sites to find the optimum build for your class. And so on.

    Again - it may be possible that some players to enjoy the preparations. But this game has been launched with other ideas in mind. And the raids comes now against that ideas.

    But thats the crux of this debate. The manifesto says "no preperation to have fun" not "no preparation to succeed". Otherwise they wouldn't have added dungeons to the game as they where explicitly meant to be hard. and meant to require some groupfinding.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    Did you guys ever tried Raid Academy discord (you have to get on the discord, and wait for someone to post a raid training and then hope you are faster than 20+ people to get in the actual raid, and then wait again another 30-40 min to even get started). If you have 60 minutes to spare for waiting time to get into a 5 min fight, be my guest. Ignoring and trying to say that the barrier to raid is something other than getting the 10 people is crazy to me. (Just my 2 cents).

    this, and

    @Silmar Alech.4305 said:

    @A R W E N.6895 said:
    (OP Here) By the way, I just wanted to point out that I already have a guild that does raid, I already have 2 discords for raids (so that I can actually find people to do raid). But guess what, downing the boss takes 5-10 minutes, getting the group takes 60 minutes.

    This is exactly my raid experience. If I look back on my time spent on raids, for 60 minutes of time spent, there is only 5-10 minutes of actually being in combat. Whatever the other 50-55 minutes are, it's a 6:1 ratio of not playing the game to playing the game. I didn't continue raiding because of that, because this ratio is not fun.

    And I didn't tell about the time spent on watching Youtube videos for tactics or about the time getting gear and build - that's all extra time. It's just the PREPARING time of getting a group full and ready and actually starting one boss fight compared to the actual combat time that is a 6:1 ratio.

    both don't sound as though the issue is actually finding 10 other players. On the contrary, sounds a lot more like: there are to many new players and the time waste is due to organizational issues and lack of resource (in this case experienced players).

    Both issues get a lot less problematic when:

    • joining a guild with fixed raid times
    • doing more than just 1 boss (I personally usually do 2-2.5 hours of training trying to do different bosses of different difficulty. My usual go to approach is W1+4 because I feel as though those bosses cover a lot of mechanics and approaches without being to difficult)
    • starting a completely new group without relying on experienced raiders (though I personally would always recommend to have 2-4 experienced players along)

    That said: Yes, raid trainings on the discords can be dependent on how many experienced raiders are available to help out. That is unfortunate but given the lack of support for this content, not about to change in the near future.

    Still this is in no way the same issue as having to "wait on 10 players" to get ready. In theory, the excess player could make their own group and get started (though again, I personally would always try to get trainings with some experienced players. It's just more efficient and can lead to faster success and learning).

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    and again, gathering 10 players is not that hard when one is able of basic social interaction, etiquette and cooperation as well as knowing where to look.

    The content is for a group of players, yes. Being unable to adapt to the content or socialize in such a way that one is able to play with other to clear the content, is on each individual.

    I'm sorry. If someone has been trying to engage in this content for 3 years but been unsuccessful, that's on them. The reason for lack of success can be as simple as the person being to shy or unwilling to engage with others, up to being highly obtuse and unable of following basic advice.

    I like this shift in direction =)=)=) Until now the players were unskilled, unable to learn, toxic (casuals) etc. With this we learn that the true reason is the fact that the players are unadapted, unable to socialize, obtuse and unable to follow basic advice etc. A big step forward - identifying the real problem is a big achievement.

    We also learned in this debate that raiding is not hard and succeeding is relatively easy - this is a direct attack to the ANet developers who stated that the raids are hard and are designed in such a way to keep the number of players succeeding as low as possible.

    One unclear thing remains - it seems that the unadapted, unable to socialize, obtuse etc players are the majority. If you look at how large the raiding community is compared with the total players you will see that the raiders are only a faction. And this raises the question: If the majority adopted a certain way of life and a tiny faction is different, who is the abnormal in that society? And how many thanks you think you will gather naming the majority "highly obtuse" / "unadapted" / unwilling to engage with others?

    BTW - if the "basic advice" has the form of a request to ping the 250 LI then I don't think this is a good advice. Because a lot of players are beginner raiders and don't have so much LI. And this prevents them to engage with the others. And earning them the label of "obtuse" and "unable to socialize".

    And all you said regarding the players ability to interact with the others is in fact a form of agreeing with the OP that in this game/community gathering 10 man together is hard. This was the way ANet team made the raids difficult. Adding the social component to the raids. This was the reason of the 10 man team. And this was the reason of the 5 man team in the beginning. They knew (still know) that GW2 casual community cannot gather so easily 10 man together to follow a goal for hours and hours and finally failing without any reward.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    But thats the crux of this debate. The manifesto says "no preperation to have fun" not "no preparation to succeed". Otherwise they wouldn't have added dungeons to the game as they where explicitly meant to be hard. and meant to require some groupfinding.

    There's a reason why those dungeons went through a wave of nerfs when Anet found out that random groups had too much difficulty with succeeding in them.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    and again, gathering 10 players is not that hard when one is able of basic social interaction, etiquette and cooperation as well as knowing where to look.

    The content is for a group of players, yes. Being unable to adapt to the content or socialize in such a way that one is able to play with other to clear the content, is on each individual.

    I'm sorry. If someone has been trying to engage in this content for 3 years but been unsuccessful, that's on them. The reason for lack of success can be as simple as the person being to shy or unwilling to engage with others, up to being highly obtuse and unable of following basic advice.

    I like this shift in direction =)=)=) Until now the players were unskilled, unable to learn, toxic (casuals) etc. With this we learn that the true reason is the fact that the players are unadapted, unable to socialize, obtuse and unable to follow basic advice etc. A big step forward - identifying the real problem is a big achievement.

    Where was this stated? I have certainly never made such flat allencompassing statements. That's something which would rather come from you when blaming the raiding community.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    We also learned in this debate that raiding is not hard and succeeding is relatively easy - this is a direct attack to the ANet developers who stated that the raids are hard and are designed in such a way to keep the number of players succeeding as low as possible.

    Again, please support your claim. This was never stated. What was stated is that raids are meant to be the most challenging content in this game.

    Also, where did I state that raids are easy? Numerically, going by what is possible in this game performance wise and what isnneeded to succed at raids, yes they are not hard. Otherwise there wouldn't be sub 1 minute boss kills.

    Yet I don't see how I even elluded to that here, since the discussion is about how difficult it is to gather a number of players, to which even TC recently stated that the discord he is using has to many players per run which makes early presence necessary.

    You once again are dealing in absolutes, which simply proves my earlier point.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    One unclear thing remains - it seems that the unadapted, unable to socialize, obtuse etc players are the majority. If you look at how large the raiding community is compared with the total players you will see that the raiders are only a faction. And this raises the question: If the majority adopted a certain way of life and a tiny faction is different, who is the abnormal in that society? And how many thanks you think you will gather naming the majority "highly obtuse" / "unadapted" / unwilling to engage with others?

    I didn't name the majority obtuse. I named the small subsection of players who have not succeeded at playing the content for over 3 years, even though trying, obtuse.

    I'm quite sure for many it has rather to do with lack of trying or lack of interest in the content which makes them not participate.

    Again, you need to read and understand what was said, and not make things up.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    BTW - if the "basic advice" has the form of a request to ping the 250 LI then I don't think this is a good advice. Because a lot of players are beginner raiders and don't have so much LI. And this prevents them to engage with the others. And earning them the label of "obtuse" and "unable to socialize".

    Not needed for trainign runs. TC seems not to have any issue getting into training runs via the raid discord. At least none which are LI related.

    The LI barrier is literally something which only affects players who want to raid above their skill level. At the very least above their experience level.

    But we have been down this road. If you still don't understand or know where to look for runs which do not require high amounts of LI after years of advice, that's on you.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    And all you said regarding the players ability to interact with the others is in fact a form of agreeing with the OP that in this game/community gathering 10 man together is hard. This was the way ANet team made the raids difficult. Adding the social component to the raids. This was the reason of the 10 man team. And this was the reason of the 5 man team in the beginning. They knew (still know) that GW2 casual community cannot gather so easily 10 man together to follow a goal for hours and hours and finally failing without any reward.

    read what TC wrote about his latest expriences with raid trainings.

    To everything else:
    If players are unable to organize and coordinate in a MMORPG, this content might simply not be for them.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    But thats the crux of this debate. The manifesto says "no preperation to have fun" not "no preparation to succeed". Otherwise they wouldn't have added dungeons to the game as they where explicitly meant to be hard. and meant to require some groupfinding.

    There's a reason why those dungeons went through a wave of nerfs when Anet found out that random groups had too much difficulty with succeeding in them.

    Really?

    Does this also explain why fractals were added barely months after the launch?

    Or the Aetherpath for Twilight Arbor? Arguably one of the more difficult dungeon paths?

    Or how the ressurecting while the group is in combat change, which made dungeons significantly harder?

    Most of the changes to dungeon were made to bring them in line, bot make them significantly easier. Some of the reworks made dubgeon paths even harder.

    Not seeing it.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Really?

    Does this also explain why fractals were added barely months after the launch?

    No. That one was due to them realizing that dungeon code was so messed up it was better to restart (they pretty much said so at some point). It was also an avenue for introducing ascended gear of course. Neither of whose had anything to do with difficulty.

    Or the Aetherpath for Twilight Arbor? Arguably one of the more difficult dungeon paths?

    The difficulty was mostly a result of them playing with a ton of new mechanics that turned out to not work as well as they intended (specifically, the whole dungeon assumes players have perfect control over aggro, which simply isn't true). I don't think they actually realized that dungeon was so more difficult than all the other ones. If they knew that, they would have realized that it ending very unpopular would be a result of this, and not a result of people not being interested in new dungeons, as they assumed.

    Or how the ressurecting while the group is in combat change, which made dungeons significantly harder?

    Ironically, yes. They did make the change, but they also balanced it by making almost all dungeon bosses much easier at the same time. I ran the dungeons before and after that change, and i do remember that the net effect made them visibly easier. In fact, it turned out to be one of the greatest nerfs dungeon difficulty ever received.
    They wanted to fix the ressrush strat (rightly, because it was dumb), but they didn't want to make the dungeons harder as a result.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Really?

    Does this also explain why fractals were added barely months after the launch?

    No. That one was due to them realizing that dungeon code was so messed up it was better to restart (they pretty much said so at some point). It was also an avenue for introducing ascended gear of course. Neither of whose had anything to do with difficulty.

    The question about fractals was not aimed at the fact they were introduced, but rather the fact that they were added as challenging content. Which if your assumptions were correct, would not have happened.

    If it had been only about a new instanced content type, they would not have made it harder.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Or the Aetherpath for Twilight Arbor? Arguably one of the more difficult dungeon paths?

    The difficulty was mostly a result of them playing with a ton of new mechanics that turned out to not work as well as they intended (specifically, the whole dungeon assumes players have perfect control over aggro, which simply isn't true). I don't think they actually realized that dungeon was so more difficult than all the other ones. If they knew that, they would have realized that it ending very unpopular would be a result of this, and not a result of people not being interested in new dungeons, as they assumed.

    and never changing the difficulty for this path so that even years later it sees almost no play?

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Or how the ressurecting while the group is in combat change, which made dungeons significantly harder?

    Ironically, yes. They did make the change, but they also balanced it by making almost all dungeon bosses much easier at the same time. I ran the dungeons before and after that change, and i do remember that the net effect made them visibly easier. In fact, it turned out to be one of the greatest nerfs dungeon difficulty ever received.
    They wanted to fix the ressrush strat (rightly, because it was dumb), but they didn't want to make the dungeons harder as a result.

    I can't agree. You are very selective in your memory. There are dungeon paths that became a lot more difficult after the changes.

    Pair that with the fact that fractals were added and dungeons were not adjusted. I'm just not agreeing to your selective opinion. At best there are enough arguments for either interpretation.

  • Not sure what the problem is. Raids are the only pve end game for gw2 and they are all pretty good. Raids are the only reason I kept playing all these years. Building new classes , taking on new roles , and putting tough enemies to the sword. I got into raiding from just joining training runs on lfg and using raiding academy. Literally could not be easier to get trained. Getting gear is a different story and one i can't attest to. Legendary armor and having stacks on ascended gear from years of play isolates my experience in gearing a new character from what less invested players experience. At my level the only thing keeping raid bosses alive is having the time to form up a kill squad or my team mates failing some mechanic like oils on deimos.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Ironically, yes. They did make the change, but they also balanced it by making almost all dungeon bosses much easier at the same time. I ran the dungeons before and after that change, and i do remember that the net effect made them visibly easier. In fact, it turned out to be one of the greatest nerfs dungeon difficulty ever received.
    They wanted to fix the ressrush strat (rightly, because it was dumb), but they didn't want to make the dungeons harder as a result.

    The "Death rush removal" patch:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/January_2013

    It's all about general adjustments, the only dungeon that got health nerfs was Crucible of Eternity (Destroyer Boss and Subject Alpha) so your argument of making "all dungeon bosses much easier" is a bit odd and not really supported by patch notes.

    According to the lead dungeon developer when that patch hit more players were playing dungeons, and less players were getting killed, even though there was hardly any change to the actual difficulty. But that was "normal" for the time, every time there was a dungeon patch players reported them being easier, even though there was hardly any actual change. For example when the Searing Effigy in COF P1 was tweaked to have more visible attacks and the crystal health was reduced, the forums lit up with "this boss is too easy now" prompting the dungeon lead to post "it's not the content that is easier, it's the players that got better at running it". Players improving over time was a major factor in perceived dungeon difficulty.

    What you remember as "visibly" easier is probably you yourself being better at running the game and/or those you run dungeons with.

    The rest of the dungeon patches of the era made explorable modes harder to combat skipping and exploiting, while significantly reducing story mode difficulty.

  • Update : Today I waited 3 hours watching 3 different discord and in game LFG. Still not into a raid. Even tried putting a group on LFG. Did not work. What is the barrier to raid again?

  • Quasar.1756Quasar.1756 Member ✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    In my opinion, the biggest barrier to raids are the balance patches. For some reason, anet likes to pick on professions that does big numbers and force the player to learn something new.

    Some gw2 players don't like that, especially if they put alot of gold and time into mastering their toon.

    Let's shine a light on the elephant in the room; Raid commanders will require certain dps professions for boss encounters cause they do insane damage to them, thus making clears faster, cause ALOT of the gw2 raid community doesn't have the patience with bosses or they deem the raid 'not exp' cause they took a minute longer with the encounter....Ultimately killing the 'fun' factor of raiding.

    Not saying this is the great barriers of all barriers, but it puts many players in a position they are not comfortable with, cause now they have to adjust to the current patch to appease the raid, thus taking the 'fun' element out of raids cause now they have to master another profession and spend more time and gold till the next patch 'heavily inclines' them to do it all over again.

    We all know condi mesmers are the 'go to' dps profession for Twin Largos, while some RC's would be forgiving, other RC's are hell bent on having them in their raid for that encounter whether it's a guild run or not. Not even going to mention the 'kill success percentage' of not running 'certain' professions for the last bosses in wing 6 & 7....takes the freedom of choice when doing certain bosses unlike open world pve.

    Raids are awesome and I really don't care about playing 5 - 7 professions to earn my kills, but NOT EVERYONE plays multiple toons and if they do, they lack the performance on those toons to be effective to the raids.

    Though this maybe wishful thinking, I my opinion, raids should be more mechanically based than putting up high numbers, it will save anet from doing nerf bat changes and put the rate of success on the player with their favorite profession; they put their blood, sweat and tears into, rather than doing sloppy mechanics but because dps was high, it leads to a kill....(Cough) Cairn.