Origin of the Six — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Lore

Origin of the Six

DraconusShade.4590DraconusShade.4590 Member ✭✭
edited June 13, 2020 in Lore

As there is no lore on the Six’s origins beyond the fact that they came to Tyria from another world along with a group of humans, I was wondering if they were simply humans who somehow managed to replace the Elder Dragons or whatever discharged the functions of the Elder Dragons in their home world. If the removal of magic from the world is mandatory to maintain balance and the humans who replaced the Elder Dragons refused to kill their former kin out of compassion then their home world would’ve been destroyed, forcing them to migrate to another with whatever humans they could save.

Is that what the Gods are not telling the humans? Is that why they are simply deciding to move away to some other world to wait out the Elder Dragons so they wouldn’t have to combat them or see their worshippers die? They now understand that the cycle is necessary but they are not happy about it so they choose not to take part in it.

The Six also consider the Elder Dragons their polar opposites, which means that while the Six encourage the use of magic, the Elder Dragons want to consume it and keep it away from the mortal races of Tyria. It could also be that the Six are afraid that the Elder Dragons might siphon away their own magic, causing them to lose their divinity.

The Elder Dragons seem to go on a rampage after consuming a certain amount of magic(as Kralkatorrik seemed to have split personality issues)- especially conflicting varieties of them and especially the magic of their brethren. If the Six served the same purpose on their world, they have obviously not gone mad with hunger for magic- does this mean that the craze for magic is something that dragons as a species are prone to and it is not a product of their role?

So what is the prevailing theory on the origin of the Six and the Elder Dragons? Where do you think the Six went? Do the Elder Dragons know of the existence of the Six? What happened to the original home world of the humans and are the Gods choosing to be selfish and have decided to preserve their divinity rather then jeopardise it in a war with the Elder Dragons?

Do you think the Gods simply took their Divinity from their home world but don’t actually understand their role or purpose and are just as lost as the humans and therefore are choosing not to interfere in anything?

Comments

  • @DraconusShade.4590 said:
    I was wondering if they were simply humans who somehow managed to replace the Elder Dragons or whatever discharged the functions of the Elder Dragons in their home world.

    >

    There was a questline in gw1 that actually hinted to this where we were fighting the aspects of the gods and every single aspect had the shape of a dragon so it is possible that the human gods are simply humans that like absorbed the magic of the dragons and ascended to godhood.

    @DraconusShade.4590 said:
    If the removal of magic from the world is mandatory to maintain balance and the humans who replaced the Elder Dragons refused to kill their former kin out of compassion then their home world would’ve been destroyed, forcing them to migrate to another with whatever humans they could save.

    I don't think this is the case because the human gods along with the seer created the bloodstones which kept magic in them and the dragons could not sense it, so i don't think that there can't be magic in the world but that the Elder Dragons in GW2 are just hoarders for magic like dragons in other mythologies are for gold. So i think that dragons are simply attracted to magic and want it all for themselves but if they can't sense magic i don't think they would be so feral so to speak.

    @DraconusShade.4590 said:
    Is that what the Gods are not telling the humans? Is that why they are simply deciding to move away to some other world to wait out the Elder Dragons so they wouldn’t have to combat them or see their worshippers die? They now understand that the cycle is necessary but they are not happy about it so they choose not to take part in it.

    I actually think that the human gods left this world because they were afraid of the Elder Dragons. The human gods have incredible amounts of magic in them and i think that they were afraid that if they stay too long and the dragons consume a lot of magic from the world that they would come after them and they weren't powerful enough to stop them, so they just left us to our own devices to stop the dragons and maybe after we deal with them or they go into hibernation again that the Human Gods will come back.

    @DraconusShade.4590 said:
    Do the Elder Dragons know of the existence of the Six?

    I think the Elder Dragons know about the Human Gods but that they didn't care much for them because there was more than enough magic to consume before they would even look at them. Either that or the Dragons didn't want to fight the Human Gods because they could have even more power than them. We can clearly see that the Dragons know about the Gods because how Kralkatorrik handled Balthazar. He never fought him directly even tho he already had some of Zhaitans and Mordremoths magic inside him but instead waited until the dealt with him to just come and steal the magic for himself. I know that it could have been that Kralkatorrik thought Balthazar was beneath him but i don't think that he would just wait for us to deal with him but instead just go 1v1 vs Blathazar if he was that much more powerful or on the same scale as the God.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @DraconusShade.4590 said:
    As there is no lore on the Six’s origins beyond the fact that they came to Tyria from another world along with a group of humans, I was wondering if they were simply humans who somehow managed to replace the Elder Dragons or whatever discharged the functions of the Elder Dragons in their home world. If the removal of magic from the world is mandatory to maintain balance and the humans who replaced the Elder Dragons refused to kill their former kin out of compassion then their home world would’ve been destroyed, forcing them to migrate to another with whatever humans they could save.

    The Scrolls found in Orr suggest the Six were fleeing their previous world to escape some grand catastrophe, which may have claimed the life of Balthazar's father.

    Is that what the Gods are not telling the humans? Is that why they are simply deciding to move away to some other world to wait out the Elder Dragons so they wouldn’t have to combat them or see their worshippers die? They now understand that the cycle is necessary but they are not happy about it so they choose not to take part in it.

    The Six also consider the Elder Dragons their polar opposites, which means that while the Six encourage the use of magic, the Elder Dragons want to consume it and keep it away from the mortal races of Tyria. It could also be that the Six are afraid that the Elder Dragons might siphon away their own magic, causing them to lose their divinity.

    The Six left Tyria because any direct combat with the Elder Dragons would have resulted in the same ecological devastation that happened when they fought Abbadon, The fight with Abbadon is what nuked the Crystal Sea, and turned it into the Crystal Desert. Imagine that happening 6 times over around the world. The planet would be toast. The Six knew they couldn't do anything to save Tyira, either they do nothing, and the Dragons eat everything, or they fight the dragons, and destroy the world, its a lose/lose situation for them.

    So what is the prevailing theory on the origin of the Six and the Elder Dragons? Where do you think the Six went? Do the Elder Dragons know of the existence of the Six? What happened to the original home world of the humans and are the Gods choosing to be selfish and have decided to preserve their divinity rather then jeopardise it in a war with the Elder Dragons?

    The Elder Dragons do know of the six. Zhaitan's minions make baseless remarks about Zhaitan having killed and consumed the Six in the Mists, and other such things we know are untrue.

    And a book in Path of Fire says the Six went to another planet, to terraform it into a paradise, and that they would return to Tyria and take their followers there once they are done.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DraconusShade.4590 said:
    As there is no lore on the Six’s origins beyond the fact that they came to Tyria from another world along with a group of humans, I was wondering if they were simply humans who somehow managed to replace the Elder Dragons or whatever discharged the functions of the Elder Dragons in their home world.

    One of the standing theories - though far less loudly than the "Six Gods = Elder Dragons" or "Six Gods got their magic from Elder Dragons" or similarly debunked theories - is that the Six Gods fulfilled the role that the Elder Dragons do but for their homeworld. There's no concrete evidence for or against such a theory though, beyond the same numerical value - but six is a common reoccurring number ever since Nightfall if not earlier and might have just been a number ANet writers enjoy/enjyed.

    IMO, the theory has two big counters:

    1) They have a heavy presence in the Rift, which is said to be the center of the multiverse. This would be weird if they were terrestial bound beings originally, especially given that by the little lore we have of the multiverse indicates to us that there would be at least three pantheons of Six Gods - for all three or just one pantheon to hold sway in the center of the multiverse seems weird. Though rather than dismissing "played the role the Elder Dragons do but elsewhere", it merely changes where that 'elsewhere' is, potentially.
    2) The Elder Dragons seem to be limitless in the magic they can hold, while the Six Gods do not - their magics are also different. This could be due to being of different systems and beings (dragons versus not), but it does lead one to think they're not quite the same afterall.

    This said, I would disagree rather greatly with the notion that they were "simply humans". First is the fact that the gods can change their appearance - as heavily seen by Dhuum and Abaddon, but also told for Dwayna and, of course, Lyssa. Furthermore, four members of the Six Gods pantheon that we know of - Dwayna, Melandru, Abaddon, and Grenth - are all at one point or another depicted with wings. This would imply a second species, rather than just humans.

    We also cannot say that none of the current gods are "original gods" either - depending on whether we take Utopia lore into account, we actually get even more lore that questions the entire similarity with the Elder Dragons.

    The Six also consider the Elder Dragons their polar opposites, which means that while the Six encourage the use of magic, the Elder Dragons want to consume it and keep it away from the mortal races of Tyria. It could also be that the Six are afraid that the Elder Dragons might siphon away their own magic, causing them to lose their divinity.

    There's no canon mention of the Six considering Elder Dragons their opposites. As far as I know, that's purely a fan theory that tries to do what @skunkstank.6128 tried - something which has already been debunked - and that being that the Six Gods' powers are tied to the Elder Dragons.

    As Kormir says, the Six realized that fighting the Elder Dragon will always result in Tyria's destruction - it was a zero sum game and they didn't want that. They knew the races would have a greater chance of survival if the Six Gods were simply out of the picture. This, of course, doesn't explain why they didn't take humans and others with them to another world - but it's probable that humans simply cannot survive lengthy traversal through the Mists and the Six first need to find a destination. It is implied that the Six plan to return once they do find a suitable world and bring their faithful with them, though whether they'll do this is another story.

    So what is the prevailing theory on the origin of the Six and the Elder Dragons? Where do you think the Six went? Do the Elder Dragons know of the existence of the Six? What happened to the original home world of the humans and are the Gods choosing to be selfish and have decided to preserve their divinity rather then jeopardise it in a war with the Elder Dragons?

    Do you think the Gods simply took their Divinity from their home world but don’t actually understand their role or purpose and are just as lost as the humans and therefore are choosing not to interfere in anything?

    In order:

    1. At the moment there is none because the most popular one over the years has been debunked, but people keep bringing it back up because they don't know it was canonically debunked - twice.
    2. According to lore, they're "searching for a new world without an Elder Dragon-like threat".
    3. It's said that Elder Dragons know what their minions know, and Jormag, Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, and Mordremoth all corrupted modern creatures who would know about the Six Gods - so by right, those four should definitely know about the Six Gods. But they would know no more than mortals do. Similarly, Primordus woke up because it sensed Abaddon's magic in the Realm of Torment just before when Kormir absorbed it all; even if Primordus doesn't know about the Six, it knows "something magically powerful exists out there" because it woke up because of that "something".
    4. As Sajuuk suggested, the Orrian History Scrolls imply the human homeworld faced some sort of catastrophe - Dwayna "searching for paradise", Lyssa "helping them forget", Balthazar carrying his father's head, and "only [Abaddon] knows what happened in the Mists" all indicate some sort of negative event occurred - some people have theorized that the Harbinger of Woe is a hint to the human homeworld, and that the destroyed planet featured on its armor is said human homeworld in three stages (just before destruction, during destruction, and after it turned to dust).
      4.5. I do not think the Six Gods are being selfish, since Kormir's statement is true - if one god dies, the world goes with them (or the ED consumes the magic); if three ED dies, the world goes with them; if an Elder Dragon can consume a full god's power, they'd be unstoppable so the world dies/gets corrupted/etc. (I mean, just look how much damage Kralkatorrik caused and he only consumed the magic of a demigod who wasn't even close to a god's power yet). Rather than fighting an unwinnable war for their faithful, they left the Forgotten to enact Plan A (Glint's Legacy) while they enact Plan B (escape to a safe world).
    5. If we consider Utopia lore accurate, then there was a previous pantheon of gods which the Six Gods are fully aware of - this previous pantheon, which included Dwayna's father, was wiped out by an unknown threat. So they definitely would have some idea about their divinity. Even if we exclude Utopia lore, which hasn't been confirmed canon, then Abaddon had a predecessor as well which seems to have predated the Six Gods' arrival on the world (given the whole "only Abaddon knows what happened in the Mists" per above), which again indicates that the Six has had a long time even before leaving the homeworld to get at least a basic grasp on what their divinity is.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @skunkstank.6128 said:
    There was a questline in gw1 that actually hinted to this where we were fighting the aspects of the gods and every single aspect had the shape of a dragon so it is possible that the human gods are simply humans that like absorbed the magic of the dragons and ascended to godhood.

    The Six Gods' power is foreign and they arrived on the world as gods. Any relation to the Elder Dragons has been debunked a couple times already, and though it isn't explicitly said, through various commentary it seems that the entire Facet quest in EotN is basically hinting along the lore revelations found in Arah explorable - specifically Forgotten and Seer paths about Glint and the Bloodstone. The draconic appearance of the Facets are tied to Glint and the Forgotten in the end.

    The only interaction between the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons seems to be the Six siphoning Zhaitan of magic to empower and fortify the split bloodstones.

    @skunkstank.6128 said:
    I actually think that the human gods left this world because they were afraid of the Elder Dragons. The human gods have incredible amounts of magic in them and i think that they were afraid that if they stay too long and the dragons consume a lot of magic from the world that they would come after them and they weren't powerful enough to stop them, so they just left us to our own devices to stop the dragons and maybe after we deal with them or they go into hibernation again that the Human Gods will come back.

    The implication that Kormir gives is that the Six Gods could defeat the Elder Dragons so long as the Elder Dragons haven't consumed a ton of magic - by which, by the point of Path of Fire this means they couldn't, but if they were around when they woke, they could. The issue is that even if they killed the Elder Dragons, that would still result in global catastrophe so there was no point in doing so. And it'd be risky - defeating Elder Dragons even after they woke wouldn't have been guaranteed, and the risk of losing once was just too great for the fact that winning wouldn't solve anything.

    Either that or the Dragons didn't want to fight the Human Gods because they could have even more power than them. We can clearly see that the Dragons know about the Gods because how Kralkatorrik handled Balthazar. He never fought him directly even tho he already had some of Zhaitans and Mordremoths magic inside him but instead waited until the dealt with him to just come and steal the magic for himself. I know that it could have been that Kralkatorrik thought Balthazar was beneath him but i don't think that he would just wait for us to deal with him but instead just go 1v1 vs Blathazar if he was that much more powerful or on the same scale as the God.

    I would argue that Kralkatorrik didn't fight Balthazar directly until the end because Kralkatorrik doesn't fight anyone directly if he doesn't have to (same for Zhaitan and Primordus, if not all Elder Dragons). He went after Glint directly, but only because he didn't have other minions to do it for him - the few minions he created on his flight south were all land creatures, after all; when it came to Snaff and Destiny's Edge, he didn't act himself until his minions failed. The same thing happened with Balthazar and even Aurene - Kralkatorrik didn't act until his minions failed to kill them.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    It's quite fascinating that questions continue to be asked about the Gods. It's almost as if people find them interesting and worthy of a bit more exploration.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2020

    In addition to what's been said here, many people have also theorised that the Human homeworld was Earth by the fact that many creatures in Tyria have similar names, such as bats, despite being wildly different creatures such as Tyrian bats appearing reptilian.

    Its an optimistic theory, but it would explain why everything in Tyria is similar to our world but also in its own way, warped, because the thinking is that when the Human Gods and Humans arrived, they not only brought other surviving species from that world but also alot of the culture which they had to adapt to a then-alien planet.

    The problem with it is the existence of the Norn, and their similarities to Humans, which remains an enigma.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 15k hours, ~27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    The fun of being a link is tagging up and hearing "who are you?"

  • NorthernRedStar.3054NorthernRedStar.3054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said: > First is the fact that the gods can change their appearance - as heavily seen by Dhuum and Abaddon, but also told for Dwayna and, of course, Lyssa. Furthermore, four members of the Six Gods pantheon that we know of - Dwayna, Melandru, Abaddon, and Grenth - are all at one point or another depicted with wings. This would imply a second species, rather than just humans.

    I recall that Guild Wars 2 wasn't originally about elder dragons, but about 'judgement day' -invasion of winged, angelic being. Could be connected to the Six.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2020

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    In addition to what's been said here, many people have also theorised that the Human homeworld was Earth by the fact that many creatures in Tyria have similar names, such as bats, despite being wildly different creatures such as Tyrian bats appearing reptilian.

    I mean, the reason for that's pretty obvious...

    Having it be Earth wouldn't make sense - the level of knowledge and technology is way too low for when humans arrived. They didn't show up as cavemen, but if they came from a post-apocalytpic earth there would have been guns, cars, and hell even phones. An apocalyptic scenario in modern times won't send us back to the Bronze Age.

    When humans arrived on Tyria, they were still utilizing oral traditions, indicating that writing systems were fairly poor. Furthermore, the Cliffside Fractal depicts humanity's early times in Tyria, and there's no similarity to modern culture in those clothes or actions, let alone the names or writing system we see of early humans.

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    I recall that Guild Wars 2 wasn't originally about elder dragons, but about 'judgement day' -invasion of winged, angelic being. Could be connected to the Six.

    Yeah, more or less. Demonic forces and angelic forces bringing about a judgment day scenario. Not sure if I'd connect them to the Six though - the Six aren't the only winged angelic beings in Tyria ("winged angelic beings" is literally the description for mursaat in early Prophecies and by White Mantle, for example).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    In addition to what's been said here, many people have also theorised that the Human homeworld was Earth by the fact that many creatures in Tyria have similar names, such as bats, despite being wildly different creatures such as Tyrian bats appearing reptilian.

    I mean, the reason for that's pretty obvious...

    Having it be Earth wouldn't make sense - the level of knowledge and technology is way too low for when humans arrived. They didn't show up as cavemen, but if they came from a post-apocalytpic earth there would have been guns, cars, and hell even phones. An apocalyptic scenario in modern times won't send us back to the Bronze Age.

    When humans arrived on Tyria, they were still utilizing oral traditions, indicating that writing systems were fairly poor. Furthermore, the Cliffside Fractal depicts humanity's early times in Tyria, and there's no similarity to modern culture in those clothes or actions, let alone the names or writing system we see of early humans.

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    I recall that Guild Wars 2 wasn't originally about elder dragons, but about 'judgement day' -invasion of winged, angelic being. Could be connected to the Six.

    Yeah, more or less. Demonic forces and angelic forces bringing about a judgment day scenario. Not sure if I'd connect them to the Six though - the Six aren't the only winged angelic beings in Tyria ("winged angelic beings" is literally the description for mursaat in early Prophecies and by White Mantle, for example).

    Interestingly, the Mursaat appear as glowing, winged creatures when they slip in and out of existence whereas the image of the Seers in GW1 seems to show a dark creature with typical Hollywood alien style eyes. Maybe these were the creatures referred to as angels and demons- only for people to find out that the Mursaat were cruel creatures who would sacrifice humans to seal the Door of Komalie and the Seers were the ones who look out for the world of Tyria.