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Installed ArcDPS for the first time. It opened my eyes to how bad wvw balance is.

aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.
I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

<13

Comments

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    What it doesnt show is who generates downstates? E. g. Burn guard is good in cleaving that downies, but dependent on the enemy cleanse coverage, you can either down a bunch of ppl at once when they stand around a cata and dont pay attention, or you can be a deliverer for aegis :#

    What it also doesnt show is tactical damage. Burn guard and Necro spread their damage quite unspecificly, so if you want to down the SpB who is rushing in, or focus down FBs, free casters, or low HPs that retreat to the backline, you are better off with ranger or thief.

    What it also doesnt show is presure damage. I imagine this should not be put aside easily. In this one-push Meta, you want to trigger cooldowns on the big skills before or between the pushes. Otherwise the enemy will just use the necessary skills when they push. Spreading out unspecific AoE damage outside a coordinated bomb might not be enough to trigger those big skills, cause its just too thinned out among too many enemies. But what if you can focus one specific target and get it low HP or loaded with a condi bomb? The support classes in that subgroup have a problem then: waste big skills on that one single player, or lose that player and save the big skills for the push?

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    just because people play necro more because necro master of spamming skills and easy to play. weaver and rev etc other prof can reach the top on the arcdps meter too. its called meta people running.

    Death is Energy [DIE] & Bongbong [BB] in FoW
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  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    @primatos.5413 said:
    Whatever everyone says here .. and the answers are quite helpful .. op is still right ... balance sucks ... :)

    Yeah, numbers dont lie. I agree with everyone's sentiments tho.
    All right, back yo my burn guard!

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    :3 vindicated kwe wubs

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • V Winter.5371V Winter.5371 Member ✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    Burn guard is god against unorganized pugs, but really starts to lose its luster against organized groups who actually have condi cleanse (even organized pugs). Like enkidu said, it also doesn't show who's generating downs, (I actually agree with most of enkidu's analysis, which is why I'm not a huge fan of arcdps in WvW, not b/c of toxcitiy or whatever, but because of ppl who take the incomplete data arcdps provides and then come to the wrong conclusions), which is not gonna be your burn guards in any organized gameplay. (Necros and revs are gonna be doing that). I'm actually really curious as to what server (and tz you're in) you're on since revs should be topping the dmg meter as well, at least 30% I would say. Either they were playing poorly or they weren't existent which means the players in that zerg were probably not updated on the current meta. Regardless, burn guard en masse (having a couple of them is, of course, good in any zerg like immobeasts or cleanse tempests) doesn't really fit the current meta as the only thing they provide besides pure dmg is condi cleanse, and that should already be covered by your FB, scrapper and SpB. Meanwhile necros provide dmg and boonstrip, while revs provide a kitten ton of dmg as well as boons (regen, might, fury, and stability mostly).

    To address the last part of your post:

    @aaron.7850 said:

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

    Again, idk what server you're playing on (or tz), but most comms would prefer you get off of dps mesmers, rangers, thiefs or engi's. That said, most of these classes still have their place in a zerg (albiet in very small quantity). Mesmers should be bringing veil, grav well, ioL and focus for pulls; rangers should be playing the immob build (fury signet, muddy ground or whatever it's called, and entangle), and there's a variation of the staff DD that's good for picking off the backline or finishing downs. Unfortunately, while engi used to be considered meta b/c of its god-tier dmg (far more than a burn guard) the recent nerfs have changed that since it a) doesn't provide any group support besides cleanse (which, like I said earlier, should already be covered) and b) it requires a very specific playstyle that makes the zerg inflexible to do something else. These drawbacks used to be outweighed when the dmg was so good it didn't matter, but as of now I would suggest most ppl get off that class (no matter how fun spamming "1" is).

    But yeah, to address your last paragraph, most commanders would prefer to have the dmg dealers be necros and revs, with a lot of other dps classes serving zerg utility roles in very small quantity. Maybe your zerg was doing that in the first place which is why necros and guards were doing so much dmg? Regardless, I really just wanted to adress two things a) the myth of the burn guard supremacy and b) the myth that other dps classes have no place in the zerg (even if there should only be a couple of them). I hope I've explained in a way that's clear.

  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet needs to reduce Well and Mark size - specially with Soul marks trait active. Want unblockable Marks? Radius reduced from 300 to 200, Marks CD increased by 10%. This would go a long way with red circle spam. Some people would cry, most would rejoyce.

    To combat condi (spam) I'd like to see a dmg cap on condi, peaking at 2000/s from all conditions combined that are on the enemy player.
    Why? Got a 2,5k burn tick, 1k bleed tick and a couple of others on ya? Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it. On top of this you can run dire or tb and spam can cer while being a bunker. This is not balance.

    I'd also limit most AOE dmg spike skills to 3 targets, providing Anet also nerf boon and heal spam from support which is out of hand currently.

  • V Winter.5371V Winter.5371 Member ✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

    That is the thing though, condo spam only works if you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

    This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭✭

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

    That is the thing though, condo spam only works if you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

    This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

    The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...

    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.
    Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

    The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.
    There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

    I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    Sustained damage is overrated anyways.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • V Winter.5371V Winter.5371 Member ✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

    That is the thing though, condo spam only works if you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

    This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

    The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...

    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.
    Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

    First, those all prevent condi dmg too. You seem to forget the basic principle that condis need to be applied, and then tick, pwr just hits. In other words, I have two ways of preventing condi dmg 1) everything you just listed and 2) basic cleanse; whereas I only have one way of preventing power.

    Second, those are not nearly as spammable as condi cleanse. FB is the only class that can reliably block and you get 1 every 9.5 seconds (if you have the trait that nobody takes, otherwise it's 12). Core guard is the only class that uses invuln. You only get 3 dodges before they have to refill, after which you can only dodge twice every 10 seconds. Reflects? only FB and core guard have this if at all, even then, which skill are you reflecting? longbow ranger? You can't reflect necro wells, phase-smash or CoR, which is where most of the burst is coming from. Even then, I just have to run through the reflect and then it doesn't matter anymore, it's not like we're in a pirate-ship meta (NA at least, not sure about EU). I cleanse blind, or, if not, then I just aa first and then use my big skill.

    The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.

    Yeah, but what's gonna kill you when you have chill, cripple or immo? Power. Like you said dmging condis are not the problem, but you can't take advantage of the cc condis unless you have power to follow up. Furthermore you seem to think that condi's (and I mean bad ones, not the flimsy bleeding you get from a necro scepter aa) are spammable with no end while condi cleanses are purely limited. As it turns out, your ability to apply condi's is just as limited as your ability to cleanse them. Scrappers can cleanse like no tomorrow, not to mention the dedicated cleanses you get from FB and SB and then the minor ones like on necro. Even if you argue that over a long fight, the ability to apply condis will edge out the cleanse; with power, the enemy zerg (or yours) will be dead before that even happens.

    Condi's are, of course, important, and some of them can be deadly if not dealt with; which is why we have condi cleanse in the first place. But if the question comes down to whether the meta revolves around power or condi, power is where your dmg comes from.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hit many people deal DPS on many people??? How is that even possible???

    I rather choose death.

  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

    That is the thing though, condo spam only works if you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

    This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

    The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...

    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.
    Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

    The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.
    There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

    I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.

    And if I take 3k damage from an autoattack, I just get hit by another 3k right after that. And after that? 3k more. Because it's just autoattack. It cost nothing. It hits instant.

    It would also be embarrasingly hypocritical of you if you say that you also kill the people running condition builds.

    If you get hit 3k by an autoattack then you're running glass and not dodging, which is fine. If you run glass or max toughness, condi will tick the same, where as power will hit like a wet noodle on max toughness build. That's the problem. You can mitigate power damage through stats, but you can't do that vs condition dmg. And what do most condi spammers use? Dire and trailblazer, wow.

    The only reason I kill condi builds is cause I'm semi-built to hard counter them so they can f-ck right off back where they came from, which is pve.

  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭✭

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

    That is the thing though, condo spam only works if you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

    This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

    The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...

    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.
    Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

    First, those all prevent condi dmg too. You seem to forget the basic principle that condis need to be applied, and then tick, pwr just hits. In other words, I have two ways of preventing condi dmg 1) everything you just listed and 2) basic cleanse; whereas I only have one way of preventing power.

    Second, those are not nearly as spammable as condi cleanse. FB is the only class that can reliably block and you get 1 every 9.5 seconds (if you have the trait that nobody takes, otherwise it's 12). Core guard is the only class that uses invuln. You only get 3 dodges before they have to refill, after which you can only dodge twice every 10 seconds. Reflects? only FB and core guard have this if at all, even then, which skill are you reflecting? longbow ranger? You can't reflect necro wells, phase-smash or CoR, which is where most of the burst is coming from. Even then, I just have to run through the reflect and then it doesn't matter anymore, it's not like we're in a pirate-ship meta (NA at least, not sure about EU). I cleanse blind, or, if not, then I just aa first and then use my big skill.

    The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.

    Yeah, but what's gonna kill you when you have chill, cripple or immo? Power. Like you said dmging condis are not the problem, but you can't take advantage of the cc condis unless you have power to follow up. Furthermore you seem to think that condi's (and I mean bad ones, not the flimsy bleeding you get from a necro scepter aa) are spammable with no end while condi cleanses are purely limited. As it turns out, your ability to apply condi's is just as limited as your ability to cleanse them. Scrappers can cleanse like no tomorrow, not to mention the dedicated cleanses you get from FB and SB and then the minor ones like on necro. Even if you argue that over a long fight, the ability to apply condis will edge out the cleanse; with power, the enemy zerg (or yours) will be dead before that even happens.

    Condi's are, of course, important, and some of them can be deadly if not dealt with; which is why we have condi cleanse in the first place. But if the question comes down to whether the meta revolves around power or condi, power is where your dmg comes from.

    Since when do endure pair, signet of stone etc negate condi dmg on you? Since when does blocking when you have condi on you negate condi dmg? Does a block negate condi ticks? Does a blind make a condi tick miss? Does a dodge make you evade a condi tick? No. So please.
    What the last balance patch did was that people changed sigils to cleansing, and bye bye went a little more build diversity.

  • Taobella.6597Taobella.6597 Member ✭✭✭

    these generally classes you see top of dps chart.
    power reaper is probably top dps if it always has 5 target to hit in melee range.
    engi bomb kit alot easier to hit because all skill spamable
    spin warrior super easy to land arc diver aoe is giant
    rev hammer + dwarf is crazy dps on impact

    guardian you only see there if fight less then 30 seconds an your fighting a group with little to no con removal.

  • V Winter.5371V Winter.5371 Member ✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    Since when do endure pair, signet of stone etc negate condi dmg on you? Since when does blocking when you have condi on you negate condi dmg? Does a block negate condi ticks? Does a blind make a condi tick miss? Does a dodge make you evade a condi tick? No. So please.
    What the last balance patch did was that people changed sigils to cleansing, and bye bye went a little more build diversity.

    Congrats, you found two examples of "block" skills that don't negate condis while ignoring all of my previous analysis. Skills which, I might add, aren't even used in any meta zerg build. What I said earlier speaks for itself, you can either refute it or agree with it; or I guess ignore it is an option too since you just did. Oh no! There's a condi ticking on me and I can't dodge it! What should I ever do? Oh yeah, my supports have a million cleanses ready and loaded. This also ignores the fact that condis ticking aren't even that big of a deal. So what if I have a stack of bleeding ticking a 1k, my scrapper will just spam one and then I'm healed. On the other hand, you can't outheal a 40k well bomb over the course of 2 seconds.

    Build diversity? Builds are more diverse now than ever. Burn guard used to be a joke, a gimmick at best, now it's considered a meta class. What about ranger? Before its only use was off tag picking off plebs, now the immobeast is good in any gvg. If anything, we have gotten more build diversity in the last few patches than before.

    I'll address you protection comment from an earlier post since I just saw it. First, that can be stripped, quite easily. Second, let's assume it isn't stripped and do some math:

    Lets use 10 necros since that should be an easy number to get in a zerg and it makes the math easier. Well of suffering ticks for about 3500 while corruption ticks for 1600, each has 6 ticks. Multiplying by ten and then .66 to get the number after protection means 33,660 dmg from a single well bomb tick which is an instadown. (This ignores shade bombs and skills from other classes that will also be hitting the target and the fact that there are 5 other ticks, which if you add immob or some other cc into the mix means you're stuck in the well). Obviously, it is unrealistic to expect 10 necros to place their wells in the same place at the same time. But it is also unrealistic to expect perma protection, either through the lack of application or strip. It is also unrealistic to block every single attack or to be able to just dodge every enemy bomb. You seem to be under this delusion that there are like 3 skills in the entire game that do power dmg and as long as you can avoid those, you are immortal; yeah, that's not the case. Take the well bomb example, you can only block one of those pulses, even if you dodge out, the fact that necros can't place their wells in the same place works against you since you now have a good chance of just dodging into another well. We had blocks, protection, dodges, and whatever before the balance patch, but everyone agrees that it was a power meta. What changed? Did cmc give every class the fb heal skill? Sure condis are more viable than they used to be, but when push comes to shove we're still in a burst power meta.

    If you get hit 3k by an autoattack then you're running glass and not dodging,

    There are 50 ppl in my zerg, my aa can hit for like 200 and I'll still kill you.

    If you run glass or max toughness, condi will tick the same, where as power will hit like a wet noodle on max toughness build. That's the problem. You can mitigate power damage through stats, but you can't do that vs condition dmg.

    Imagine having something called vitality which is the other side of the coin to toughness, huh... Tougness hits like a wet noodle on max toughness? Yeah, b/c I don't kill minstrel FBs and scrappers on my power scourge and rev every single day.

    And what do most condi spammers use? Dire and trailblazer, wow.

    And what groups are using dire and trailblazer en masse? Please tell me so I can go farm them for easy bags.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i'm not sure how this "burn guard is bad against cleanses" viewpoint in zerg combat keeps on getting perpetuated. zergs specifically. there are numerous videos of it working and working well on youtube. nothing short of resistance spam from rev or a good guild group can reliably deal with it since burn guard has a ton of low cd skills that eats thru cleanse cds. not to mention 90% of people will not save cleanses for a lone burn guard. no, they will spam them with no group coordination every push. oh and if you're spamming your skills at the head of the enemy zerg then you're doing it wrong. obviously everything will get cleansed there.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.
    I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

    Take a look at healing contribution and I'll bet regen accounts for a ton of it. Does that mean regen is the only useful healing?

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ok, not going to dispute whether ARC can be helpful or not. However, your post is chalk full of logical inaccuracies.

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

    How can necros and Burn Guards both do ‘close to 80% of the damage EACH?

    And... How much did each necro and each Burn guard do?

    Quite simply if the Zerg is comprised of 40 players, 30 of which are burn guards and necros, then ‘80% of the total damage’ would actually be low.

    Considering that tempests and scrappers are more support.

    I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    I won’t be quite as rude as the poster above, but if there are rangers and thief’s in the group, likely it wasn’t a comped group, nor were they beneficial as most are performing the role they were intended to: single target focus.

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

    Unfortunately this last paragraph just screams: I am new to this mode and you shouldn’t listen to what I am saying.

    For 7+ years, necro has been the primary DPS class in Zergs. Guard has always topped the support role which, they are more efficient at that then the DPS that you saw.

    Ele has fluctuated but, minus some solid glass staff players, has been viewed as a little AOE and general heal.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Ok, not going to dispute whether ARC can be helpful or not. However, your post is chalk full of logical inaccuracies.

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

    How can necros and Burn Guards both do ‘close to 80% of the damage EACH?

    (snip)

    Never heard about overperforming ??

    :dizzy: sorry could not resist.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It took ARCDPS for you to discover what we all knew since PoF at least, if not HoT?

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Tomas.6092Tomas.6092 Member ✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Anyone remember 6 months ago when burn guard was trash?

    I assume you're from na. EU used burn dh/vanilla and power vanilla guards for ages lol

    EU - Whiteside Ridge
    Tequila
    [Kill] Gotta Kill Em All

    MagSwag

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:
    What it doesnt show is who generates downstates? E. g. Burn guard is good in cleaving that downies, but dependent on the enemy cleanse coverage, you can either down a bunch of ppl at once when they stand around a cata and dont pay attention, or you can be a deliverer for aegis :#

    What it also doesnt show is tactical damage. Burn guard and Necro spread their damage quite unspecificly, so if you want to down the SpB who is rushing in, or focus down FBs, free casters, or low HPs that retreat to the backline, you are better off with ranger or thief. Warclaw

    Fixed it for you.

    What it also doesnt show is presure damage. I imagine this should not be put aside easily. In this one-push Meta, you want to trigger cooldowns on the big skills before or between the pushes. Otherwise the enemy will just use the necessary skills when they push. Spreading out unspecific AoE damage outside a coordinated bomb might not be enough to trigger those big skills, cause its just too thinned out among too many enemies. But what if you can focus one specific target and get it low HP or loaded with a condi bomb? The support classes in that subgroup have a problem then: waste big skills on that one single player, or lose that player and save the big skills for the push?

    To be serious this is all true, I play a DH, a Reaper, and everything Warrior. There is tremendous value in being able to pick out the weak spot in the zerg, dodge in on Warclaw, down people/finish downs with Battle Maul, and then lay your own AoEs down before blowing your CDs to get out and back to the backline to remount for the next dive. If you're more of a ranged type, then cycle through the targets and find problem enemies like Scrappers, FBs, or Scourges and lay down your dps on them or if you have a pull, then pull them into your own zerg.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

    That is the thing though, condo spam only works if you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

    This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

    The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...

    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.
    Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

    The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.
    There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

    I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.

    And if I take 3k damage from an autoattack, I just get hit by another 3k right after that. And after that? 3k more. Because it's just autoattack. It cost nothing. It hits instant.

    It would also be embarrasingly hypocritical of you if you say that you also kill the people running condition builds.

    If you get hit 3k by an autoattack then you're running glass and not dodging, which is fine. If you run glass or max toughness, condi will tick the same, where as power will hit like a wet noodle on max toughness build. That's the problem. You can mitigate power damage through stats, but you can't do that vs condition dmg. And what do most condi spammers use? Dire and trailblazer, wow.

    The only reason I kill condi builds is cause I'm semi-built to hard counter them so they can f-ck right off back where they came from, which is pve.

    You've never actually played dire/trailblazer, huh?

    Because thats what power builds hit on them. Other attacks can hit for 7-9k. Prepatch I saw up to around 13-15k damage against 3.5k armor, but granted that has been scaled back. Most of the damage mitigation comes from boons.

    Also if you cant mitigate vs condition damage... how the flipping kitten can you "semi-build to hard counter" them???

    See previous note on hypocricy.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Ok, not going to dispute whether ARC can be helpful or not. However, your post is chalk full of logical inaccuracies.

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

    How can necros and Burn Guards both do ‘close to 80% of the damage EACH?

    (snip)

    Never heard about overperforming ??

    :dizzy: sorry could not resist.

    😂. Nicely done

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    It took ARCDPS for you to discover what we all knew since PoF at least, if not HoT?

    I quit before HoT came out and just came back a few months ago.

  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

    That is the thing though, condo spam only works if you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

    This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

    The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...

    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.
    Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

    The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.
    There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

    I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.

    And if I take 3k damage from an autoattack, I just get hit by another 3k right after that. And after that? 3k more. Because it's just autoattack. It cost nothing. It hits instant.

    It would also be embarrasingly hypocritical of you if you say that you also kill the people running condition builds.

    If you get hit 3k by an autoattack then you're running glass and not dodging, which is fine. If you run glass or max toughness, condi will tick the same, where as power will hit like a wet noodle on max toughness build. That's the problem. You can mitigate power damage through stats, but you can't do that vs condition dmg. And what do most condi spammers use? Dire and trailblazer, wow.

    The only reason I kill condi builds is cause I'm semi-built to hard counter them so they can f-ck right off back where they came from, which is pve.

    You've never actually played dire/trailblazer, huh?

    Because thats what power builds hit on them. Other attacks can hit for 7-9k. Prepatch I saw up to around 13-15k damage against 3.5k armor, but granted that has been scaled back. Most of the damage mitigation comes from boons.

    Also if you cant mitigate vs condition damage... how the flipping kitten can you "semi-build to hard counter" them???

    See previous note on hypocricy.

    You're pulling these numbers straight out of your a ss.
    You can mitigate condi, not saying you can't, but one has to build for it. As for condi bunkers mitigating power dmg, you don't really have to sacrifice that much, if anything.

    I played dire/tb, and it's sickening. Probably one of the most disgusting ways to play this game apart from perma stealth.

    I'd love to see 3k auto attacks vs 3500 armor on non pure glass, actually even pure glass doesn't hit that much, maybe thief or a 25 might stack lb sic em ranger or rev but even that is questionable and situational.

    You claim hypocricy, I claim straight up lies from your end to satisfy your argument.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    What is this thread about again? I'm unsure of the point OP is trying to make and the rest of the discussion seems to ramble off. WvW meta isn't only about damage and there are other stats provided by arcdps that regularly get used (i.e. boon strips and condi cleanses). As for balance, what kind of balance are you looking for? Why does one need arcdps to learn that there's always some sort of BIS/META (literally "most effective tactics available") in games?

  • how much did retaliation do >_>

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

    Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from attacks hitting you.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    I'd love to see 3k auto attacks vs 3500 armor on non pure glass, actually even pure glass doesn't hit that much, maybe thief or a 25 might stack lb sic em ranger or rev but even that is questionable and situational.

    So uuuuuh... you're saying its very much possible for several common classes running glass? I was recently hit for 8411 damage on my dire/trailblazer from a vault and that skill has a base of just 1430 damage against 3500 armor at 2500 power (1100x2500x1.82/3500). The rest is all buffs and multipliers. Though I must admit, my build only has around 3200 armor (no toughness runes). If you can hit for 5x base, an AA for 600 can hit for 3k (such as thief 3rd dagger AA at 2500 power with nearly 700 damage). Pretty sure things like rangers and warriors etc far exceed that base damage with similar multipliers.

    But granted I'm pretty bad at math so might be wrong. Maybe there isnt any AA that can hit for 3k. Someone else can do max dmg calcs if they want to correct it.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tomas.6092 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Anyone remember 6 months ago when burn guard was trash?

    I assume you're from na. EU used burn dh/vanilla and power vanilla guards for ages lol

    The post was satire, I've been putting up videos of burn dh pulling stupid damage for like a year.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I still maintain it's an idiot test build. But sadly that's all it takes to be strong now.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • SWI.4127SWI.4127 Member ✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.
    I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

    Scourge (assuming this is what you mean by necro) doesn't even do top damage in groups who know how to play their classes. I play full berserker Scourge and I'm often outdps'd by Heralds, weavers, dragonhunters, and even base burn guards. Scourges are there to help spike and facilitate everyone else's damage through corrupts. It's nice you did a little one-day experiment, but many people have been using arcDPS this whole time and can confirm what I'm saying. One-day test on one server probably with many of the same players does not say much.

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    Why do you hate damage meters and all they represent? It is a very useful tool. For instance, I'm sure you had always heard that dps mesmer, dps ranger, dps thief are bad in zergs. You finally get to see first-hand with this tool why people say that. It isn't because people hate those classes - it's because they don't work as well. To answer your question simply: you shouldn't bring dps mesmer, ranger, engi, (Daredevil is ok if you really know what you're doing and it isn't too blobby). What you saw is that AoE skills, which can't be reflected and hit more people, are better than single target or projectile skills. It's the inherent nature of the game mode. You are going against lots of people so naturally AoE is going to be very good. It's not something that can be balanced unless those other classes have access to as much AoE. I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but this inherent difference between AoE and other skills cannot be easily overcome without ruining balance in other parts of the game. If they buff single target and projectiles, then suddenly certain classes become even more OP at roaming than they already are.

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

    So yes, this is why squads use a composition and ask for meta classes - it works.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:

    @primatos.5413 said:
    Whatever everyone says here .. and the answers are quite helpful .. op is still right ... balance sucks ... :)

    Yeah, numbers dont lie. I agree with everyone's sentiments tho.
    All right, back yo my burn guard!

    numbers don't lie. but liars can't interpret numbers.

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Michelin rated WvW guild since 2015. The gold standard. Never transferred, never reformed, adapting and reloading with or without Anet.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So? Now put one of those top zerg dpsers against the lowest dps roamer in the same zerg and the roamer will probably still kill him.

    Combat isnt all about dps. Which is evident in meta zergs as well, since they dont bring all glass cannon dps. If you dont want any support utility in the zerg thats fine but most zergs win because of it and proper movement, not the dps.

    So much this!
    Dps is irrelevant and ARCdps isn't doing anyone any favors in WvW. You get a bunch of splash damage dps that ramps your meter but the meter doesn't tell you if the damage you dealt actually did something meaningful of got overhealed by support for no gain. Concentrated burst and above all infight positioning and boon utilization is where it's at.

  • jul.7602jul.7602 Member ✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Anyone remember 6 months ago when burn guard was trash?

    It was **never **trash. People were just too stupid to realize how much damage it did.

  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

    Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from attacks hitting you.

    Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

  • Wow this devolved quickly.

    All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt. This... is a concern for people getting into WvW. Players have their mains, and without a meaningful impact for their profession to have, a player can get turned off from WvW.

    Personally, one of the professions I always wanted to bring into WvW but don't is the engineer, largely because they have no offensive presence in a zerg. My options are to spam heals and hope everyone else is competent, or to small scale roam. The mortar kit is the only weapon that has good range, but the long arc on each of the shells makes it nigh unuseable in a fight. Another profession I've wanted to bring in is the thief, but I don't for very similar reasons. My options on thief are to use scorpion wire, or to spam preparations. The rifle is too immobile for zerg combat, and it only hits one enemy.

    You get the idea. Similar things can be said for the mesmer and the warrior. Having one or two good skills for the zerg doesn't cut it. You need to be able to pose an offensive threat while also providing meaningful utility. Otherwise, you'll lose to the group that IS running the profession that has offense + utility.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

    Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from attacks hitting you.

    Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

    Ok, but that's like saying you can't dodge burst damage after it hits you and you're lying there dead. :D

  • @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

    Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from attacks hitting you.

    Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

    You are really stubborn one, aren't you? ;-)

    Then make sure you have enough Vitality to increase your HP and that way have enough time between your cleanses. Honestly what do you expect?

    Conditions are there for everybody, even Power builds, so why do continue this mantra? Do you think it is much better to get one-shot by damage from "pure" Power builds? Those glasscanon builds aren't useful any more as that would be suicide to use a build that only make use of Berserker attributes in WvW without any boost to concentration (for boon duration) or any vitality/toughness added above base attribute for profession. Even during HoT expansion for PvE content people started to move over to quad attributes as those gave more time to react, to use cleanse or reduce those first hits and to use duration (for both boon or condition duration).

    Try to do bounties in PoF and you will see how mobile those NPCs actually have become, not to forget that they also have random defensive and offensive skill that might reflect all projectile damage. In WvW we have also Dragonbanner, so what are you actually suggesting?

    In Zerg or any larger groups then 2 person there will be synergies that will accumulate damage, cleanses and movement (from boons and through portals among other). You also seem to only concentrate about single players cleanse. Light fields do also provide AoE cleanse. Regeneration (counter) to poison, bleed damage from those condition types. Also Ratialiation if it is high enough in regen.

    Condition needs time to build up in stack (and some condition today will only build up in duration; same if you look for boons where some can only build up to 5 stacks and not in intensity - not in the amount of damage each tick can have). If you have access to Blind (condition) then you will block some hits as misses so it work on the same level as Aegis which also only block one hit and then need to refresh.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

    I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

    Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

    As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

    I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

    Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

    As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

    ...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.
    I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

    dont wannabe a kitten, but burn guards are useless and necro's arent even top dps..

    think blob wise im pretty sure if using proper builds and setups its
    ele > scrapper > thief > reaper > rev > then maybe necro

    top of that arcdps is so useless i mean a thief for example could be lowest DPS but might have downed the most people cus its spike with vault is way beyond a point that most classes can even pull off. does that mean a necro is still better? or burn guard?
    ur over time ticks and kitten might look all good but spike is kitten.

    this why i always insist on arcdps is useless in WvW... some people with 0 dps could make a different in the fight while all people with arcdps are getting all horny over all top dps stats and they are like woaa gotta reroll into X class to do mad dmg also.