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Installed ArcDPS for the first time. It opened my eyes to how bad wvw balance is.


aaron.7850

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Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

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So? Now put one of those top zerg dpsers against the lowest dps roamer in the same zerg and the roamer will probably still kill him.

Combat isnt all about dps. Which is evident in meta zergs as well, since they dont bring all glass cannon dps. If you dont want any support utility in the zerg thats fine but most zergs win because of it and proper movement, not the dps.

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What it doesnt show is who generates downstates? E. g. Burn guard is good in cleaving that downies, but dependent on the enemy cleanse coverage, you can either down a bunch of ppl at once when they stand around a cata and dont pay attention, or you can be a deliverer for aegis :#

What it also doesnt show is tactical damage. Burn guard and Necro spread their damage quite unspecificly, so if you want to down the SpB who is rushing in, or focus down FBs, free casters, or low HPs that retreat to the backline, you are better off with ranger or thief.

What it also doesnt show is presure damage. I imagine this should not be put aside easily. In this one-push Meta, you want to trigger cooldowns on the big skills before or between the pushes. Otherwise the enemy will just use the necessary skills when they push. Spreading out unspecific AoE damage outside a coordinated bomb might not be enough to trigger those big skills, cause its just too thinned out among too many enemies. But what if you can focus one specific target and get it low HP or loaded with a condi bomb? The support classes in that subgroup have a problem then: waste big skills on that one single player, or lose that player and save the big skills for the push?

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Burn guard is god against unorganized pugs, but really starts to lose its luster against organized groups who actually have condi cleanse (even organized pugs). Like enkidu said, it also doesn't show who's generating downs, (I actually agree with most of enkidu's analysis, which is why I'm not a huge fan of arcdps in WvW, not b/c of toxcitiy or whatever, but because of ppl who take the incomplete data arcdps provides and then come to the wrong conclusions), which is not gonna be your burn guards in any organized gameplay. (Necros and revs are gonna be doing that). I'm actually really curious as to what server (and tz you're in) you're on since revs should be topping the dmg meter as well, at least 30% I would say. Either they were playing poorly or they weren't existent which means the players in that zerg were probably not updated on the current meta. Regardless, burn guard en masse (having a couple of them is, of course, good in any zerg like immobeasts or cleanse tempests) doesn't really fit the current meta as the only thing they provide besides pure dmg is condi cleanse, and that should already be covered by your FB, scrapper and SpB. Meanwhile necros provide dmg and boonstrip, while revs provide a shit ton of dmg as well as boons (regen, might, fury, and stability mostly).

To address the last part of your post:

@"aaron.7850" said:

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

Again, idk what server you're playing on (or tz), but most comms would prefer you get off of dps mesmers, rangers, thiefs or engi's. That said, most of these classes still have their place in a zerg (albiet in very small quantity). Mesmers should be bringing veil, grav well, ioL and focus for pulls; rangers should be playing the immob build (fury signet, muddy ground or whatever it's called, and entangle), and there's a variation of the staff DD that's good for picking off the backline or finishing downs. Unfortunately, while engi used to be considered meta b/c of its god-tier dmg (far more than a burn guard) the recent nerfs have changed that since it a) doesn't provide any group support besides cleanse (which, like I said earlier, should already be covered) and b) it requires a very specific playstyle that makes the zerg inflexible to do something else. These drawbacks used to be outweighed when the dmg was so good it didn't matter, but as of now I would suggest most ppl get off that class (no matter how fun spamming "1" is).

But yeah, to address your last paragraph, most commanders would prefer to have the dmg dealers be necros and revs, with a lot of other dps classes serving zerg utility roles in very small quantity. Maybe your zerg was doing that in the first place which is why necros and guards were doing so much dmg? Regardless, I really just wanted to adress two things a) the myth of the burn guard supremacy and b) the myth that other dps classes have no place in the zerg (even if there should only be a couple of them). I hope I've explained in a way that's clear.

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Anet needs to reduce Well and Mark size - specially with Soul marks trait active. Want unblockable Marks? Radius reduced from 300 to 200, Marks CD increased by 10%. This would go a long way with red circle spam. Some people would cry, most would rejoyce.

To combat condi (spam) I'd like to see a dmg cap on condi, peaking at 2000/s from all conditions combined that are on the enemy player.Why? Got a 2,5k burn tick, 1k bleed tick and a couple of others on ya? Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it. On top of this you can run dire or tb and spam can cer while being a bunker. This is not balance.

I'd also limit most AOE dmg spike skills to 3 targets, providing Anet also nerf boon and heal spam from support which is out of hand currently.

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@"hobotnicax.7918" said:Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

That is the thing though, condo spam only works if you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

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@V Winter.5371 said:

@"hobotnicax.7918" said:Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

That is the thing though, condo spam only works
if
you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.

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@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

That is the thing though, condo spam only works
if
you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.And if I take 3k damage from an autoattack, I just get hit by another 3k right after that. And after that? 3k more. Because it's just autoattack. It cost nothing. It hits instant.

It would also be embarrasingly hypocritical of you if you say that you also kill the people running condition builds.

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@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

That is the thing though, condo spam only works
if
you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

First, those all prevent condi dmg too. You seem to forget the basic principle that condis need to be applied, and then tick, pwr just hits. In other words, I have two ways of preventing condi dmg 1) everything you just listed and 2) basic cleanse; whereas I only have one way of preventing power.

Second, those are not nearly as spammable as condi cleanse. FB is the only class that can reliably block and you get 1 every 9.5 seconds (if you have the trait that nobody takes, otherwise it's 12). Core guard is the only class that uses invuln. You only get 3 dodges before they have to refill, after which you can only dodge twice every 10 seconds. Reflects? only FB and core guard have this if at all, even then, which skill are you reflecting? longbow ranger? You can't reflect necro wells, phase-smash or CoR, which is where most of the burst is coming from. Even then, I just have to run through the reflect and then it doesn't matter anymore, it's not like we're in a pirate-ship meta (NA at least, not sure about EU). I cleanse blind, or, if not, then I just aa first and then use my big skill.

The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.

Yeah, but what's gonna kill you when you have chill, cripple or immo? Power. Like you said dmging condis are not the problem, but you can't take advantage of the cc condis unless you have power to follow up. Furthermore you seem to think that condi's (and I mean bad ones, not the flimsy bleeding you get from a necro scepter aa) are spammable with no end while condi cleanses are purely limited. As it turns out, your ability to apply condi's is just as limited as your ability to cleanse them. Scrappers can cleanse like no tomorrow, not to mention the dedicated cleanses you get from FB and SB and then the minor ones like on necro. Even if you argue that over a long fight, the ability to apply condis will edge out the cleanse; with power, the enemy zerg (or yours) will be dead before that even happens.

Condi's are, of course, important, and some of them can be deadly if not dealt with; which is why we have condi cleanse in the first place. But if the question comes down to whether the meta revolves around power or condi, power is where your dmg comes from.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

That is the thing though, condo spam only works
if
you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.And if I take 3k damage from an autoattack, I just get hit by another 3k right after that. And after that? 3k more. Because it's just autoattack. It cost nothing. It hits instant.

It would also be embarrasingly hypocritical of you if you say that you also kill the people running condition builds.

If you get hit 3k by an autoattack then you're running glass and not dodging, which is fine. If you run glass or max toughness, condi will tick the same, where as power will hit like a wet noodle on max toughness build. That's the problem. You can mitigate power damage through stats, but you can't do that vs condition dmg. And what do most condi spammers use? Dire and trailblazer, wow.

The only reason I kill condi builds is cause I'm semi-built to hard counter them so they can f-ck right off back where they came from, which is pve.

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@V Winter.5371 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

That is the thing though, condo spam only works
if
you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

First, those all prevent condi dmg too. You seem to forget the basic principle that condis need to be applied, and then tick, pwr just hits. In other words, I have two ways of preventing condi dmg 1) everything you just listed and 2) basic cleanse; whereas I only have one way of preventing power.

Second, those are not nearly as spammable as condi cleanse. FB is the only class that can reliably block and you get 1 every 9.5 seconds (if you have the trait that nobody takes, otherwise it's 12). Core guard is the only class that uses invuln. You only get 3 dodges before they have to refill, after which you can only dodge twice every 10 seconds. Reflects? only FB and core guard have this if at all, even then, which skill are you reflecting? longbow ranger? You can't reflect necro wells, phase-smash or CoR, which is where most of the burst is coming from. Even then, I just have to run through the reflect and then it doesn't matter anymore, it's not like we're in a pirate-ship meta (NA at least, not sure about EU). I cleanse blind, or, if not, then I just aa first and then use my big skill.

The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.

Yeah, but what's gonna kill you when you have chill, cripple or immo? Power. Like you said dmging condis are not the problem, but you can't take advantage of the cc condis unless you have power to follow up. Furthermore you seem to think that condi's (and I mean bad ones, not the flimsy bleeding you get from a necro scepter aa) are spammable with no end while condi cleanses are purely limited. As it turns out, your ability to apply condi's is just as limited as your ability to cleanse them. Scrappers can cleanse like no tomorrow, not to mention the dedicated cleanses you get from FB and SB and then the minor ones like on necro. Even if you argue that over a long fight, the ability to apply condis will edge out the cleanse; with power, the enemy zerg (or yours) will be dead before that even happens.

Condi's are, of course, important, and some of them can be deadly if not dealt with; which is why we have condi cleanse in the first place. But if the question comes down to whether the meta revolves around power or condi, power is where your dmg comes from.

Since when do endure pair, signet of stone etc negate condi dmg on you? Since when does blocking when you have condi on you negate condi dmg? Does a block negate condi ticks? Does a blind make a condi tick miss? Does a dodge make you evade a condi tick? No. So please.What the last balance patch did was that people changed sigils to cleansing, and bye bye went a little more build diversity.

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these generally classes you see top of dps chart.power reaper is probably top dps if it always has 5 target to hit in melee range.engi bomb kit alot easier to hit because all skill spamablespin warrior super easy to land arc diver aoe is giantrev hammer + dwarf is crazy dps on impact

guardian you only see there if fight less then 30 seconds an your fighting a group with little to no con removal.

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@"hobotnicax.7918" said:

Since when do endure pair, signet of stone etc negate condi dmg on you? Since when does blocking when you have condi on you negate condi dmg? Does a block negate condi ticks? Does a blind make a condi tick miss? Does a dodge make you evade a condi tick? No. So please.What the last balance patch did was that people changed sigils to cleansing, and bye bye went a little more build diversity.

Congrats, you found two examples of "block" skills that don't negate condis while ignoring all of my previous analysis. Skills which, I might add, aren't even used in any meta zerg build. What I said earlier speaks for itself, you can either refute it or agree with it; or I guess ignore it is an option too since you just did. Oh no! There's a condi ticking on me and I can't dodge it! What should I ever do? Oh yeah, my supports have a million cleanses ready and loaded. This also ignores the fact that condis ticking aren't even that big of a deal. So what if I have a stack of bleeding ticking a 1k, my scrapper will just spam one and then I'm healed. On the other hand, you can't outheal a 40k well bomb over the course of 2 seconds.

Build diversity? Builds are more diverse now than ever. Burn guard used to be a joke, a gimmick at best, now it's considered a meta class. What about ranger? Before its only use was off tag picking off plebs, now the immobeast is good in any gvg. If anything, we have gotten more build diversity in the last few patches than before.

I'll address you protection comment from an earlier post since I just saw it. First, that can be stripped, quite easily. Second, let's assume it isn't stripped and do some math:

Lets use 10 necros since that should be an easy number to get in a zerg and it makes the math easier. Well of suffering ticks for about 3500 while corruption ticks for 1600, each has 6 ticks. Multiplying by ten and then .66 to get the number after protection means 33,660 dmg from a single well bomb tick which is an instadown. (This ignores shade bombs and skills from other classes that will also be hitting the target and the fact that there are 5 other ticks, which if you add immob or some other cc into the mix means you're stuck in the well). Obviously, it is unrealistic to expect 10 necros to place their wells in the same place at the same time. But it is also unrealistic to expect perma protection, either through the lack of application or strip. It is also unrealistic to block every single attack or to be able to just dodge every enemy bomb. You seem to be under this delusion that there are like 3 skills in the entire game that do power dmg and as long as you can avoid those, you are immortal; yeah, that's not the case. Take the well bomb example, you can only block one of those pulses, even if you dodge out, the fact that necros can't place their wells in the same place works against you since you now have a good chance of just dodging into another well. We had blocks, protection, dodges, and whatever before the balance patch, but everyone agrees that it was a power meta. What changed? Did cmc give every class the fb heal skill? Sure condis are more viable than they used to be, but when push comes to shove we're still in a burst power meta.

If you get hit 3k by an autoattack then you're running glass and not dodging,

There are 50 ppl in my zerg, my aa can hit for like 200 and I'll still kill you.

If you run glass or max toughness, condi will tick the same, where as power will hit like a wet noodle on max toughness build. That's the problem. You can mitigate power damage through stats, but you can't do that vs condition dmg.

Imagine having something called vitality which is the other side of the coin to toughness, huh... Tougness hits like a wet noodle on max toughness? Yeah, b/c I don't kill minstrel FBs and scrappers on my power scourge and rev every single day.

And what do most condi spammers use? Dire and trailblazer, wow.And what groups are using dire and trailblazer en masse? Please tell me so I can go farm them for easy bags.

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i'm not sure how this "burn guard is bad against cleanses" viewpoint in zerg combat keeps on getting perpetuated. zergs specifically. there are numerous videos of it working and working well on youtube. nothing short of resistance spam from rev or a good guild group can reliably deal with it since burn guard has a ton of low cd skills that eats thru cleanse cds. not to mention 90% of people will not save cleanses for a lone burn guard. no, they will spam them with no group coordination every push. oh and if you're spamming your skills at the head of the enemy zerg then you're doing it wrong. obviously everything will get cleansed there.

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@enkidu.5937 said:What it doesnt show is who generates downstates? E. g. Burn guard is good in cleaving that downies, but dependent on the enemy cleanse coverage, you can either down a bunch of ppl at once when they stand around a cata and dont pay attention, or you can be a deliverer for aegis :#

Nice to see at least someone else who posts on these forums gets it.

Arc is for PvE, where the boss has a fixed health pool, doesn't cleanse and doesn't heal.

In WvW, the only thing that matters is downed state, and not-downed state. In a zerg, taking a target down to 1% to then see them bumped up to 50% + aegis + barrier means you accomplished nothing - you should just erase that damage from your logs.

If you don't understand what I'm saying, camp an AC and spam a squad humping rams trying to get into SMC inner. Have a look at your glorious DPS, and realize that if the group you're attacking is decent, you won't generate a single down - which means all that damage you did means exactly nothing.

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@aaron.7850 said:Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?The fact you are referencing Thief and Ranger as part of groups here in wvw shows how little you understand the game mode and how valueless your post is.

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@aaron.7850 said:Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

Take a look at healing contribution and I'll bet regen accounts for a ton of it. Does that mean regen is the only useful healing?

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