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Installed ArcDPS for the first time. It opened my eyes to how bad wvw balance is.

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  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    yeah its so hard

    A single stack of burn ticks for 411 dmg on the most popular burn guard build (450 on the most unrealistically maxed out for burn dmg build, let's use that instead) or wait (you can tick for 590 using the unrealistic build and a full 25 stacks of might, lets settle on this one). So yeah, you'd need over 8 stacks of burn, not just once, but consecutively to get the "not so hard consecutive 5k+ burn ticks". Again I ask, who tf is letting you maintain 8+ burn stacks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    SoJ hits 5 targets and applies 4 stacks per cast. PW triggers every 3rd damage packet. SoJ hits 20 times (25 w/ fire sigil), applying 25/3= 8 aoe burn stacks. So SoJ alone applies 12 stacks of burning.

    It's very realistic to run full vipers/grieving burn dh and you self apply 2 stacks of might with scepter equipped on each PW activation. 8 activations=16 might per cast.

    Or we can look at scepter 2, which hits 7x per second and counts double towards PW activation so long as you're running zeal. 14/3= 4 aoe burn stacks per second = 8 might each second.

    Each SoJ takes ~2s to fully apply damage. Place both on the same spot and you generate 20 aoe burn burn stacks in 2s while gaining 32 stacks of might. The key to playing it well is whether you can keep a group in place for 2s, either because they're stacked tightly or in a choke or due to immob.

    While I'm not entirely convinced that any half-decent group will just stand in your aoes (and let each of them hit) for more than 2s, let's assume that's the case. First, my original argument was in response to "consecutive 5k+ burn ticks" the language of which implies single target (if Wall meant over the entire group, then I completely concede that getting 5k dps over a 50 person zerg is easy as pie, but it's also pretty meaningless). In other words, even applying 20 stacks of aoe burn in 2s (along with presumably other skills) it is highly unlikely that you will actually apply all of those stacks to the same 5-10 people; you are more likely to spread the burning out and have less dmging ticks across a greater number of targets.

    My second point is in response to "consecutively", as though any support will just let 8 stacks of burning tick again and again on their dps classes. (If I start to see burn stacks building up on my dps classes, then I'm breaking out the cleanses; most of which are pulsing. Even if the cleanse is single tick, I can literally reduce the dmg done by half)

    Obviously, burn guards are useful to a zerg and to dmg (as I've previously stated in this thread). But the idea that zergs are just running around letting 5k+ burn ticks kill each member is untrue for anything but disorganized groups with no cleanses.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    yeah its so hard

    A single stack of burn ticks for 411 dmg on the most popular burn guard build (450 on the most unrealistically maxed out for burn dmg build, let's use that instead) or wait (you can tick for 590 using the unrealistic build and a full 25 stacks of might, lets settle on this one). So yeah, you'd need over 8 stacks of burn, not just once, but consecutively to get the "not so hard consecutive 5k+ burn ticks". Again I ask, who tf is letting you maintain 8+ burn stacks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    SoJ hits 5 targets and applies 4 stacks per cast. PW triggers every 3rd damage packet. SoJ hits 20 times (25 w/ fire sigil), applying 25/3= 8 aoe burn stacks. So SoJ alone applies 12 stacks of burning.

    It's very realistic to run full vipers/grieving burn dh and you self apply 2 stacks of might with scepter equipped on each PW activation. 8 activations=16 might per cast.

    Or we can look at scepter 2, which hits 7x per second and counts double towards PW activation so long as you're running zeal. 14/3= 4 aoe burn stacks per second = 8 might each second.

    Each SoJ takes ~2s to fully apply damage. Place both on the same spot and you generate 20 aoe burn burn stacks in 2s while gaining 32 stacks of might. The key to playing it well is whether you can keep a group in place for 2s, either because they're stacked tightly or in a choke or due to immob.

    While I'm not entirely convinced that any half-decent group will just stand in your aoes (and let each of them hit) for more than 2s, let's assume that's the case. First, my original argument was in response to "consecutive 5k+ burn ticks" the language of which implies single target (if Wall meant over the entire group, then I completely concede that getting 5k dps over a 50 person zerg is easy as pie, but it's also pretty meaningless). In other words, even applying 20 stacks of aoe burn in 2s (along with presumably other skills) it is highly unlikely that you will actually apply all of those stacks to the same 5-10 people; you are more likely to spread the burning out and have less dmging ticks across a greater number of targets.

    My second point is in response to "consecutively", as though any support will just let 8 stacks of burning tick again and again on their dps classes. (If I start to see burn stacks building up on my dps classes, then I'm breaking out the cleanses; most of which are pulsing. Even if the cleanse is single tick, I can literally reduce the dmg done by half)

    Obviously, burn guards are useful to a zerg and to dmg (as I've previously stated in this thread). But the idea that zergs are just running around letting 5k+ burn ticks kill each member is untrue for anything but disorganized groups with no cleanses.

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    yeah its so hard

    A single stack of burn ticks for 411 dmg on the most popular burn guard build (450 on the most unrealistically maxed out for burn dmg build, let's use that instead) or wait (you can tick for 590 using the unrealistic build and a full 25 stacks of might, lets settle on this one). So yeah, you'd need over 8 stacks of burn, not just once, but consecutively to get the "not so hard consecutive 5k+ burn ticks". Again I ask, who tf is letting you maintain 8+ burn stacks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    SoJ hits 5 targets and applies 4 stacks per cast. PW triggers every 3rd damage packet. SoJ hits 20 times (25 w/ fire sigil), applying 25/3= 8 aoe burn stacks. So SoJ alone applies 12 stacks of burning.

    It's very realistic to run full vipers/grieving burn dh and you self apply 2 stacks of might with scepter equipped on each PW activation. 8 activations=16 might per cast.

    Or we can look at scepter 2, which hits 7x per second and counts double towards PW activation so long as you're running zeal. 14/3= 4 aoe burn stacks per second = 8 might each second.

    Each SoJ takes ~2s to fully apply damage. Place both on the same spot and you generate 20 aoe burn burn stacks in 2s while gaining 32 stacks of might. The key to playing it well is whether you can keep a group in place for 2s, either because they're stacked tightly or in a choke or due to immob.

    While I'm not entirely convinced that any half-decent group will just stand in your aoes (and let each of them hit) for more than 2s, let's assume that's the case. First, my original argument was in response to "consecutive 5k+ burn ticks" the language of which implies single target (if Wall meant over the entire group, then I completely concede that getting 5k dps over a 50 person zerg is easy as pie, but it's also pretty meaningless). In other words, even applying 20 stacks of aoe burn in 2s (along with presumably other skills) it is highly unlikely that you will actually apply all of those stacks to the same 5-10 people; you are more likely to spread the burning out and have less dmging ticks across a greater number of targets.

    My second point is in response to "consecutively", as though any support will just let 8 stacks of burning tick again and again on their dps classes. (If I start to see burn stacks building up on my dps classes, then I'm breaking out the cleanses; most of which are pulsing. Even if the cleanse is single tick, I can literally reduce the dmg done by half)

    Obviously, burn guards are useful to a zerg and to dmg (as I've previously stated in this thread). But the idea that zergs are just running around letting 5k+ burn ticks kill each member is untrue for anything but disorganized groups with no cleanses.

    Perhaps I should reiterate what I've said previously on this thread. a) condi is probably good for roaming (I don't roam much so I really don't know the meta). b) burn guard is god tier against unorganized pugs, it becomes less relevant with comped groups (still good though, as I have stated several times on this thread). These aren't good groups (or were in bad positions to start with, there isn't a lot of context in some of these clips but I get that context isn't the purpose of a montage, just difficult to analyze the situation if you want to use it as an argument), I don't really want to bm them since I don't know who they are, but your group (I'll assume the player in the clip is you, forgive me if I'm mistaken) basically one pushed all of them. So unless I'm missing context, your clips just prove my point.

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    dude, do you wvw at all? dps scrapper can top the charts no problem lmao

    every class has at least one viable zerg build. The only class that's particularly difficult to play well in a zerg is thief, but good ones can pump out some great damage with staff daredevil

    Considering the subject of this thread is that guardians, necromancers, and elementalists dwarf everyone in sustained zerg DPS, this is what I am going off of. There's already spirited debate on the minutia of how useful that DPS is, but the limited application of melee weapons in zerg combat makes me skeptical that scrapper tops the charts.

    Personally, I play ele. The reason is simple: it can do everything. I've melted entire groups with a single meteor storm, swapped to sword to small scale/roam, and I've even had some experience healing and commanding at the same time. The zerg play is fairly feast or famine, but once that storm hits I can turn the tide of the battle. Before PoF I played rev. Back then, it could do everything on a single build. I didn't heal much with it, but I did drop the tablet on siege every once in awhile.

    Have you ever visited youtube.com? It's a neat new site with endless videos of zerg fights, set the filter to show the most recent ones. Look for some with arcdps up, scrappers can pump out 30k aoes with their AA

    I think some of the videos you find will be enlightening now that you can also see your damage with arcdps

    Sustained Zerg DPS.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    yeah its so hard

    A single stack of burn ticks for 411 dmg on the most popular burn guard build (450 on the most unrealistically maxed out for burn dmg build, let's use that instead) or wait (you can tick for 590 using the unrealistic build and a full 25 stacks of might, lets settle on this one). So yeah, you'd need over 8 stacks of burn, not just once, but consecutively to get the "not so hard consecutive 5k+ burn ticks". Again I ask, who tf is letting you maintain 8+ burn stacks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    SoJ hits 5 targets and applies 4 stacks per cast. PW triggers every 3rd damage packet. SoJ hits 20 times (25 w/ fire sigil), applying 25/3= 8 aoe burn stacks. So SoJ alone applies 12 stacks of burning.

    It's very realistic to run full vipers/grieving burn dh and you self apply 2 stacks of might with scepter equipped on each PW activation. 8 activations=16 might per cast.

    Or we can look at scepter 2, which hits 7x per second and counts double towards PW activation so long as you're running zeal. 14/3= 4 aoe burn stacks per second = 8 might each second.

    Each SoJ takes ~2s to fully apply damage. Place both on the same spot and you generate 20 aoe burn burn stacks in 2s while gaining 32 stacks of might. The key to playing it well is whether you can keep a group in place for 2s, either because they're stacked tightly or in a choke or due to immob.

    While I'm not entirely convinced that any half-decent group will just stand in your aoes (and let each of them hit) for more than 2s, let's assume that's the case. First, my original argument was in response to "consecutive 5k+ burn ticks" the language of which implies single target (if Wall meant over the entire group, then I completely concede that getting 5k dps over a 50 person zerg is easy as pie, but it's also pretty meaningless). In other words, even applying 20 stacks of aoe burn in 2s (along with presumably other skills) it is highly unlikely that you will actually apply all of those stacks to the same 5-10 people; you are more likely to spread the burning out and have less dmging ticks across a greater number of targets.

    My second point is in response to "consecutively", as though any support will just let 8 stacks of burning tick again and again on their dps classes. (If I start to see burn stacks building up on my dps classes, then I'm breaking out the cleanses; most of which are pulsing. Even if the cleanse is single tick, I can literally reduce the dmg done by half)

    Obviously, burn guards are useful to a zerg and to dmg (as I've previously stated in this thread). But the idea that zergs are just running around letting 5k+ burn ticks kill each member is untrue for anything but disorganized groups with no cleanses.

    Perhaps I should reiterate what I've said previously on this thread. a) condi is probably good for roaming (I don't roam much so I really don't know the meta). b) burn guard is god tier against unorganized pugs, it becomes less relevant with comped groups (still good though, as I have stated several times on this thread). These aren't good groups (or were in bad positions to start with, there isn't a lot of context in some of these clips but I get that context isn't the purpose of a montage, just difficult to analyze the situation if you want to use it as an argument), I don't really want to bm them since I don't know who they are, but your group (I'll assume the player in the clip is you, forgive me if I'm mistaken) basically one pushed all of them. So unless I'm missing context, your clips just prove my point.

    Maybe i should be more clear: check out the channel and search for dragonhunter videos. There's over 30 of them on there, filled with different groups all across NA. It works on all of them. So unless the entirety of NA are wildly incompetent, burn dh works fine. If you'd like to go the 'well NA sucks then' route, I can link some of figrin's videos from EU where he does the same thing. I've given you the math, it checks out. I've given you videos that demonstrate the math in action. At this point man, seems kinda dumb to say it doesn't work?

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    dude, do you wvw at all? dps scrapper can top the charts no problem lmao

    every class has at least one viable zerg build. The only class that's particularly difficult to play well in a zerg is thief, but good ones can pump out some great damage with staff daredevil

    Considering the subject of this thread is that guardians, necromancers, and elementalists dwarf everyone in sustained zerg DPS, this is what I am going off of. There's already spirited debate on the minutia of how useful that DPS is, but the limited application of melee weapons in zerg combat makes me skeptical that scrapper tops the charts.

    Personally, I play ele. The reason is simple: it can do everything. I've melted entire groups with a single meteor storm, swapped to sword to small scale/roam, and I've even had some experience healing and commanding at the same time. The zerg play is fairly feast or famine, but once that storm hits I can turn the tide of the battle. Before PoF I played rev. Back then, it could do everything on a single build. I didn't heal much with it, but I did drop the tablet on siege every once in awhile.

    Have you ever visited youtube.com? It's a neat new site with endless videos of zerg fights, set the filter to show the most recent ones. Look for some with arcdps up, scrappers can pump out 30k aoes with their AA

    I think some of the videos you find will be enlightening now that you can also see your damage with arcdps

    Sustained Zerg DPS.

    Is this sustained dps or is it burst?

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    Maybe i should be more clear: check out the channel and search for dragonhunter videos. There's over 30 of them on there, filled with different groups all across NA. It works on all of them. So unless the entirety of NA are wildly incompetent, burn dh works fine. If you'd like to go the 'well NA sucks then' route, I can link some of figrin's videos from EU where he does the same thing. I've given you the math, it checks out. I've given you videos that demonstrate the math in action. At this point man, seems kinda dumb to say it doesn't work?

    Things like this irk me. Yes it works. I can also show clips of a longbow soulbeast outDPSing your burn DH, does that mean it works? His argument is speaking to consistency, unless you can link a video of every single fight from a night both wins and losses and show that you were the top DPS every time you aren't speaking to his argument. I don't think DH(or burn guardians in general) is bad, but in my experience it is much less consistent than something like a hammer rev or scourge. Its purpose is more niche and reliant on the opponent making mistakes. They are mistakes groups make pretty frequently (usually out of laziness), and so it is easy to fill a montage with it working against a lot of different people. It doesn't really solve the issue that the build either feasts or starves.

    Okay, cool. Link me a video of a longbow slb doing 30k dps? Please show me a video of a longbow slb coming even remotely close to that lmao

    So if I post up a 2 hour, no cuts video showing exactly that, will you watch it? What will be your excuse afterwards?

    The build consistently tops damage. Against good groups that stay mobile, the damage is on par with a good herald. Against groups that push a choke or kitten up once, it pulls 30%+ higher than the next higest dps.

    If you can't make it work, it's because you're building it wrong or positioning wrong.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2020

    Ah, the classic moving goalposts measure.

    "You can't do it"
    Shows a video of doing it
    "Well, those people sucked!"

    I suppose there is some validity, because this game is a joke when comes to being a competitive game. However, if most of the game is fighting large amounts of unskilled zergs, then that is a good thing to run; there's no point in building against unicorn groups, is there? Plus Templates can instantly adjust anyways. I mean, what do you think most of the people here are fighting? They're looking for advice against pugs, not high end gvg advice. Not that you would go here for that kind of advice.

    It's kinda like those people say that people that gank on thief or ranger "couldn't beat good players!" Yet those builds are widely popular for a reason-- they work. If I play a high stealth thief build meant for tapping structures and hiding in keeps, I could care less about how it does in a fair fight. Because if I did, I'm already doing it wrong.

    But none of these is here or there. I would challenge people to present what they think is good dps, but w/e, let's not bother. I suggest people post a video of themselves with their godly group tanking burn guard damage with their sustain. It should be easy to make, if burn guard is really that useless. Would be educational too.

    Btw I'm not saying Burn Guard is OP.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

    That is the thing though, condo spam only works if you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

    This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

    The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...

    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.
    Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

    You do realize that you can dodge, reflect, blind, block, etc all the skills that inflict conditions on you in the first place right?

    Condi has more counters. This however says nothing about whether it's stronger or not (but power is definitively stronger and has been for as long as I played (roughly since start of HoT).

    Clears are just another counter to conditions you can bring, that work after you get hit by the skills. They're not the only tool to combat condition dmg.

    The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.
    There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

    This has nothing to do with condi dmg tho. CC is too strong in this game, that's fairly common knowledge, but is kinda irrelevant to a power vs condi discussion.

    You even say yourself that it's the soft CC ones that kill you, most of which comes from power builds (because they're more common)

    I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.

    Then you are my favorite type of player.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.
    I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

    buy a tag and get farmed... you'll lack a solid amount of rangepressure if you have no revs. i got on par with scrouges on my revenant yet, it always depends on the battles too.
    burn guardian is pretty weak, it only works if ppl are careless and sustain is bad, okay and if it lags really bad.
    of course ranger thief mesmer are not good dps in squads, that's why there is a meta.

    the meta dps classes are: scrouge (necro), herald (rev) and eventually scrapper
    meta heals: FB, scrapper evtl tempest
    warrior can do everything if u play it right, mesmer is the best invisibility support for squads.

    ranger, thief is basically what u never need.

    then again, when u have people playing odd sets then sometimes scrouges fail to even hit for 6k in battles

    i don't care much about roaming dps, the bigger thing there is anyways to bring more people than the others, i stopped doing that nearly at all since roaming packs became a thing. just not fun having several thieves and mesmers hidden all the time. esp at thief, it would be really better if that class would get nerfed into the ground for the Wvw-format's sake.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    yeah its so hard

    A single stack of burn ticks for 411 dmg on the most popular burn guard build (450 on the most unrealistically maxed out for burn dmg build, let's use that instead) or wait (you can tick for 590 using the unrealistic build and a full 25 stacks of might, lets settle on this one). So yeah, you'd need over 8 stacks of burn, not just once, but consecutively to get the "not so hard consecutive 5k+ burn ticks". Again I ask, who tf is letting you maintain 8+ burn stacks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    SoJ hits 5 targets and applies 4 stacks per cast. PW triggers every 3rd damage packet. SoJ hits 20 times (25 w/ fire sigil), applying 25/3= 8 aoe burn stacks. So SoJ alone applies 12 stacks of burning.

    It's very realistic to run full vipers/grieving burn dh and you self apply 2 stacks of might with scepter equipped on each PW activation. 8 activations=16 might per cast.

    Or we can look at scepter 2, which hits 7x per second and counts double towards PW activation so long as you're running zeal. 14/3= 4 aoe burn stacks per second = 8 might each second.

    Each SoJ takes ~2s to fully apply damage. Place both on the same spot and you generate 20 aoe burn burn stacks in 2s while gaining 32 stacks of might. The key to playing it well is whether you can keep a group in place for 2s, either because they're stacked tightly or in a choke or due to immob.

    While I'm not entirely convinced that any half-decent group will just stand in your aoes (and let each of them hit) for more than 2s, let's assume that's the case. First, my original argument was in response to "consecutive 5k+ burn ticks" the language of which implies single target (if Wall meant over the entire group, then I completely concede that getting 5k dps over a 50 person zerg is easy as pie, but it's also pretty meaningless). In other words, even applying 20 stacks of aoe burn in 2s (along with presumably other skills) it is highly unlikely that you will actually apply all of those stacks to the same 5-10 people; you are more likely to spread the burning out and have less dmging ticks across a greater number of targets.

    My second point is in response to "consecutively", as though any support will just let 8 stacks of burning tick again and again on their dps classes. (If I start to see burn stacks building up on my dps classes, then I'm breaking out the cleanses; most of which are pulsing. Even if the cleanse is single tick, I can literally reduce the dmg done by half)

    Obviously, burn guards are useful to a zerg and to dmg (as I've previously stated in this thread). But the idea that zergs are just running around letting 5k+ burn ticks kill each member is untrue for anything but disorganized groups with no cleanses.

    Perhaps I should reiterate what I've said previously on this thread. a) condi is probably good for roaming (I don't roam much so I really don't know the meta). b) burn guard is god tier against unorganized pugs, it becomes less relevant with comped groups (still good though, as I have stated several times on this thread). These aren't good groups (or were in bad positions to start with, there isn't a lot of context in some of these clips but I get that context isn't the purpose of a montage, just difficult to analyze the situation if you want to use it as an argument), I don't really want to bm them since I don't know who they are, but your group (I'll assume the player in the clip is you, forgive me if I'm mistaken) basically one pushed all of them. So unless I'm missing context, your clips just prove my point.

    You know what the problem is. In EU I'd think that 90% of the zergs are "unorganized" pug groups how you call it.
    A commander that tags up, people join and you try to do the best with what you got.

    You cannot take the measure of a kill-guild blob of 50 people. or small guild groups.
    Burn guard is too strong and needs to see nerfs. That's just how it is.

  • frareanselm.1925frareanselm.1925 Member ✭✭✭

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.
    I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

    dont wannabe a kitten, but burn guards are useless and necro's arent even top dps..

    think blob wise im pretty sure if using proper builds and setups its
    ele > scrapper > thief > reaper > rev > then maybe necro

    top of that arcdps is so useless i mean a thief for example could be lowest DPS but might have downed the most people cus its spike with vault is way beyond a point that most classes can even pull off. does that mean a necro is still better? or burn guard?
    ur over time ticks and kitten might look all good but spike is kitten.

    this why i always insist on arcdps is useless in WvW... some people with 0 dps could make a different in the fight while all people with arcdps are getting all horny over all top dps stats and they are like woaa gotta reroll into X class to do mad dmg also.

    Is not only that Guard and necro do more DPS, is that they provide big aoe (burns and chills=damage and invalidation) while thief has zero impact in zerg fight due its selfish nature.

  • So unless the entirety of NA are wildly incompetent, burn dh works fine. If you'd like to go the 'well NA sucks then' route, I can link some of figrin's videos from EU where he does the same thing.

    Actually yes, most of NA is very bad. Also, a big part of EU is bad too. That's the state of GW2 playerbase after 8 years of Anet kitten on and neglecting all the competitive game modes. Burn DH will not work vs strong blobs. But if you're happy making a build for farming kitten, then almost anything will work. However, it doesn't make it a good build

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stormscar.5489 said:

    So unless the entirety of NA are wildly incompetent, burn dh works fine. If you'd like to go the 'well NA sucks then' route, I can link some of figrin's videos from EU where he does the same thing.

    Actually yes, most of NA is very bad. Also, a big part of EU is bad too. That's the state of GW2 playerbase after 8 years of Anet kitten on and neglecting all the competitive game modes. Burn DH will not work vs strong blobs. But if you're happy making a build for farming kitten, then almost anything will work. However, it doesn't make it a good build

    It works on bad players, most of NA is very bad, most of EU is bad too.... so its highly effective against the majority of groups?

    Your argument is: something is only good if it works well against 10% of players. Kinda seems like a dumb way to view things but hey, you do you lol

  • Stormscar.5489Stormscar.5489 Member ✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Stormscar.5489 said:

    So unless the entirety of NA are wildly incompetent, burn dh works fine. If you'd like to go the 'well NA sucks then' route, I can link some of figrin's videos from EU where he does the same thing.

    Actually yes, most of NA is very bad. Also, a big part of EU is bad too. That's the state of GW2 playerbase after 8 years of Anet kitten on and neglecting all the competitive game modes. Burn DH will not work vs strong blobs. But if you're happy making a build for farming kitten, then almost anything will work. However, it doesn't make it a good build

    It works on bad players, most of NA is very bad, most of EU is bad too.... so its highly effective against the majority of groups?

    Your argument is: something is only good if it works well against 10% of players. Kinda seems like a dumb way to view things but hey, you do you lol

    Yes, if a build works a bit worse vs bad players but better vs good players it's a good build. You'll farm bad players regardless. So unless your goal is to farm bags like a PvE champ train, builds should be designed to work against good groups. Also, wvw players become worse by promoting worse builds.

  • MokoToko.6890MokoToko.6890 Member ✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    Risen, everyone knows that just slotting 1 cleanse scrapper and either 1 tempest or shoutbreaker completely cancels out and counters a guard build that is built to stack literally 1 condi. Please stop acting like you've found the Ark of the Covenant, you're only proving that you're bad at the game.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I

    guess

    all

    of

    these

    people

    should

    quit

    because

    they

    are

    terrible

    at

    playing

    w

    v

    w

    ?

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ok, as per forum warrior tradition, I'm going to nitpick everyone's actions in the above videos in 100% hindsight and 0.25 slow motion to show that they are indeed bad.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Ok, as per forum warrior tradition, I'm going to nitpick everyone's actions in the above videos in 100% hindsight and 0.25 slow motion to show that they are indeed bad.

    i'm going to loudly proclaim how everyone that isn't in my 15v15 gvg group knows nothing about wvw

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    This is the way.

    Edit: Real gamers 3-squad

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020

    Being bad at WvW and playing WvW badly are not the same thing.

    Burn guard, especially stacking them, favors versing people who play WvW badly. I don't know why that is hard to understand. There are a myriad of builds that work against such things because... they are playing badly.

    I did my due diligence. I went looking through 75% of these clips for an example of a group that was playing relatively intelligently where you totally wrecked their face in because burn DH is op or some kitten. This was the best example I could find. (Edit: Time 2 minutes 11 seconds because forum embeds don't record timestamps? or I'm bad at foruming)

    It's very profound. There are 28 in your squad, some 20 greens. Facing off against ~25 enemies. You 'unload all your cds' while they reset along with YOUR ENTIRE SQUADS BOMB and you get... 2 downs.

    That's it. That's all you're worth against people with two brain cells in an outnumbered situation.

    Edit: And yes, I'm happy you can kill people playing badly. And yes, if that is what you want to do Burn guardian is a very good build for doing that.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    There's a funny story behind that fight, VOID was talking kitten about burn guard so mohr and I joined their squad. We, 2/28, carried 1/3rd of their squads total damage. You tell me, since this was an intelligent group why was 1/3rd of the squad's damage from 2 burn guards- bear in mind this clip was back when antitoxin runes were doubling their scrapper's cleanse output.

    Since this was an intelligent group, shouldn't burn guard have fallen somewhere in the middle of the pack?

  • SWI.4127SWI.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020

    Probably has something to do with you being able to freecast because there's 49 other people around you. Also gonna guess by when that clip conveniently stops that you wiped right after that lol.

  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭✭

    Simple fix to SoJ being as broken as it is. Make it have a health pool like other AI in the game (pets, clones etc).
    It would quickly fix the dmg output so many brag about playing burn guard. SoJ would insta melt inside zergs.
    Also regarding the videos posted above... the Dh could only freecast like this cause there were no capable rangers or thieves around.

    WvW balance is an illusion, there are too many variables at play. What Anet should focus on is to reduce AOE boon and damage spam and tone down overperforming condi specs and overall stealth durations, along with a look at projectile hate aka limit on reflects from skills.
    Since they won't remove sniff and stomp from mounts, at least make them vulnerable to cripple, slow, chill and immo.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SWI.4127 said:
    Probably has something to do with you being able to freecast because there's 49 other people around you. Also gonna guess by when that clip conveniently stops that you wiped right after that lol.

    I put the clip in to remind packit that he's trash =D

    And I feel like I mentioned in this thread the importance of positioning?

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's very profound. There are 28 in your squad, some 20 greens. Facing off against ~25 enemies. You 'unload all your cds' while they reset along with YOUR ENTIRE SQUADS BOMB and you get... 2 downs.

    Name 1 guild that doesn't play like that? Ajamming montages have been meta since launch.

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Michelin rated WvW guild since 2015. The gold standard. Never transferred, never reformed, adapting and reloading with or without Anet.

  • SWI.4127SWI.4127 Member ✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SWI.4127 said:
    Probably has something to do with you being able to freecast because there's 49 other people around you. Also gonna guess by when that clip conveniently stops that you wiped right after that lol.

    I put the clip in to remind packit that he's trash =D

    And I feel like I mentioned in this thread the importance of positioning?

    Easy to position when you aren't the focus of the enemy. If that's the best example you have of it working against a good, comped group, it doesn't do much for your argument. I'm not going through all your videos, but I noticed you often outnumber people in them. Freecasting because you outnumber a group 2:1 does not show a build's effectiveness.

  • LadyHawk.5319LadyHawk.5319 Member ✭✭✭

    All the OP is showing is that that squad was made up of primarily power scourges and burn guards, with a cpl of weavers for meteor. That is all they are showing. This does not in any way, shape or form indicate the balance or lack thereof of the classes in WvW. It does show the lack of balance that squad was in. You show me a squad with every meta class represented in equal numbers and equal player skill with the same result and then you can talk about the balance state with the OP's Arc results as proof.