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Monk Rune vs Water Rune for Scrapper

Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
edited June 21, 2020 in WvW

Monk Rune
(1): +25 Healing
(2): +5% Boon Duration
(3): +50 Healing
(4): +10% Boon Duration
(5): +100 Healing
(6): +10% Healing Effectiveness to Allies; increase outgoing healing effectiveness by 1% for 3 seconds after granting a boon to an ally (up to a maximum of 10 stacks).

Water Rune
(1): +25 Healing
(2): +5% Boon Duration
(3): +50 Healing
(4): +10% Boon Duration
(5): +100 Healing
(6): +10% Boon Duration; remove a condition from you and nearby allies after using a Healing skill. (Cooldown: 20 Seconds)

Comparing the above:

+10% healing effectiveness and an average of 3% - 6% healing effectiveness (lasting 3 secs)
vs
+10% boon duration and remove a condition after using a healing skill (converting that condi to boon for scrapper)

After the recent huge nerfs on healing power and the current condi meta run in WvW, is Water Rune better than Monk now?

edit: amendments

Comments

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    I think still monk; with healing weakened, you actually have less leeway. Also you should be able to maintain 10 stacks of Monk fairly easily because of Purity of Purpose as well as you many other ways of pulsing boons. Scrapper has no end to condi cleanse really, but healing more is always good.

    OTOH, Water runes only apply to the toolbelt. Also note the 1s cast time. It is very unlikely that extra bit is going to matter and will most likely just cleanse some random junk condi. I feel it would be much worse than monk in a high pressure situation if your firebrand makes a mistake, or it just lags. (which is often)

    Also are we talking about zergs? It's not necessarily a condi meta.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For scraps it's your f skills that become the healing :3

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    @Mil.3562 said:
    After the recent huge nerfs on healing power and the current condi meta run in WvW, is Water Rune better than Monk now?

    Scrapper's primary role as WvW support is not to heal but to cleanse, provide Stealth and to provide Superspeed. If Healing were a concern, Scrapper would quickly fall out of favor to FB and Tempest which fill the role much better.
    Water was always better than Monk Runes.

    So were/are:
    Superior Rune of Nature's Bounty
    (1): +25 Healing
    (2): -5% Incoming Condition Duration
    (3): +50 Healing
    (4): -10% Incoming Condition Duration
    (5): +100 Healing
    (6): -10% Incoming Condition Duration; cleanse a condition from nearby allies after using a healing skill. (Cooldown: 10 Seconds)

    Healing is what a Scrapper does when their relevant skills are on cooldown. It doesn't provide buffs that leverage Boon duration nearly as well as alternative support.
    Monk runes were always used by people who just didn't know any better.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    That's the new :3 bae.

    Nature's bounty plays anti condi and resistance. Ah standing all day on burn stacks

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    That's the new :3 bae.

    Nature's bounty plays anti condod and resistance. Ah standing all day on burn stacks

    Certainly helps with the number of "Dragon Banner Mains" in t1 and t2 these days for sure.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    That's the new :3 bae.

    Nature's bounty plays anti condod and resistance. Ah standing all day on burn stacks

    Certainly helps with the number of "Dragon Banner Mains" in t1 and t2 these days for sure.

    Aye. Sometimes pug can't get out fast enough simply because of the lag and delay of ping to server.

    So having a bit of umph helps .

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Imo, while scrapper's primary function is not to provide heals, it should provide a lot of it. You simply don't have enough cleanse skills to not be spamming 1 on medkit for at least 20% of the fight. Thus the way I see it, 20% healing effectiveness out preforms 5 condi cleanses every 20 10 seconds. If you're talking about altruism runes on the other hand, which is effectively 5 condi cleanses every ~1.5 seconds, then I'd say the extra cleanses outweigh. But 20% healing power is too much to give up imo for effectively 1 cleanse every 2 seconds.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    Serious Booning on Scrapper requires Turret builds, otherwise the only Boons you put out are a bit of Regeneration, Protection and Stabiilty, maybe Swiftness if you combo some of your fields. If you aren't using Turrets then use Monk Runes.

    For Purity of Purpose alone only 100% Boon Duration is worth it, because they're so short to begin with.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (NA) | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    The fun part of being a link server is tagging up and hearing "who are you?"

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Serious Booning on Scrapper requires Turret builds, otherwise the only Boons you put out are a bit of Regeneration, Protection and Stabiilty, maybe Swiftness if you combo some of your fields. If you aren't using Turrets then use Monk Runes.

    Do you think turrets can be practically relevant in WvW with the current level of mobility during combat?
    I'd love to be proven wrong for sure.... but I just dont see it.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Serious Booning on Scrapper requires Turret builds, otherwise the only Boons you put out are a bit of Regeneration, Protection and Stabiilty, maybe Swiftness if you combo some of your fields. If you aren't using Turrets then use Monk Runes.

    Do you think turrets can be practically relevant in WvW with the current level of mobility during combat?
    I'd love to be proven wrong for sure.... but I just dont see it.

    I ran a core turreteer last week and here's the funny thing - yes I could kill quite a few peeps on the build.

    But the other funny thing is that it sure wasnt because of the turrets, because they instantly exploded as people auto cleaved without giving them a second thought so they where all just constantly on cd anyway.

    Funny relatively speaking, of course. The actually practical turrets is called gyros.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Serious Booning on Scrapper requires Turret builds, otherwise the only Boons you put out are a bit of Regeneration, Protection and Stabiilty, maybe Swiftness if you combo some of your fields. If you aren't using Turrets then use Monk Runes.

    Do you think turrets can be practically relevant in WvW with the current level of mobility during combat?
    I'd love to be proven wrong for sure.... but I just dont see it.

    If you are using them for their attacks, no, they're completely worthless. The only effective builds that run them use them for the few secs of Reflect, whatever effect they have while spawning (overcharge), and the immediate application of a Boon. Then, drop down some kind of field and blow all the Turrets up to combo it. Yes, they're always on cooldown this way and don't contribute to the fight; but the on-spawn effects, when traited, aren't much different than your average utility skill and you can make it work.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (NA) | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    The fun part of being a link server is tagging up and hearing "who are you?"

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    Superior Rune of Nature's Bounty ICD of 10 sec is good only if your healing skill has 10 or lesser ICD. Scrapper's Bandage Self has a ICD of 17 secs, so effectively it's cleansing and converting one condi every 17 secs. And imo, to give up 25% of boon duration in Water Rune for one more cleanse after every 17 sec is not worth it. And also, I am not just considering the boon duration on the boons given by the Scrapper but also those converted by Purity of Purpose. Nowadays many, not all, are running condi builds in WvW. There can be a lot of boons out there...

    I have been using Superior Monk Runes and Superior Sigil of Life or Benevolence on my Scrapper. But, after the big nerf, I can tell a huge difference in the effectiveness of my heals. I thought since Scrapper can give out a decent amount of boons from condi conversions, I want to switch to focusing more on their duration, and with Superior Water Runes and Superior Sigil of Concentration, they give an additional 35% boons duration in total.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    unless its something ridiculous like altruism monk is going to be the best. 1 condi every 10 or 20 secs is peanuts.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭

    Actually I am more interested in the extended boons duration, the one more condi cleanse is just a bonus to me :D

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    +10% boon duration is also peanuts compared to +20% healing. its not even a competition imo but do whatevs ya want.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mil.3562 said:
    I thought since Scrapper can give out a decent amount of boons from condi conversions, I want to switch to focusing more on their duration, and with Superior Water Runes and Superior Sigil of Concentration, they give an additional 35% boons duration in total.

    My only question though is what is the benefit of all the extra boon duration (on top of what you have from Monk runes + Minstrels) when they are just going to get stripped or corrupted anyways?

    As far as I can tell, the only time when such extra boon duration would matter is when your opponents are in retreat, with shades/winds on cooldown, in which case it's just a matter of catching up to them before they can mount/port or retreat into a structure -they aren't really putting up a fight at that point.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    I thought since Scrapper can give out a decent amount of boons from condi conversions, I want to switch to focusing more on their duration, and with Superior Water Runes and Superior Sigil of Concentration, they give an additional 35% boons duration in total.

    My only question though is what is the benefit of all the extra boon duration (on top of what you have from Monk runes + Minstrels) when they are just going to get stripped or corrupted anyways?

    As far as I can tell, the only time when such extra boon duration would matter is when your opponents are in retreat, with shades/winds on cooldown, in which case it's just a matter of catching up to them before they can mount/port or retreat into a structure -they aren't really putting up a fight at that point.

    You don't take Boon Duration for long-lasting Boons, you take it for example, Boons from Purity of Purpose, which have naturally short durations. Condition Duration and Boon Duration shine when the base is 1-2sec and you extend it to 2-4sec. That's about the lag time on a cleanse or strip, because players wait for the optimal time to cleanse the right Condition or strip the right Boon, not some junk.

    If something already lasts like 10-15sec, why make it last longer? But if it lasts only a few seconds, its a huge benefit.

    @Mil.3562 said:
    Superior Rune of Nature's Bounty ICD of 10 sec is good only if your healing skill has 10 or lesser ICD. Scrapper's Bandage Self has a ICD of 17 secs, so effectively it's cleansing and converting one condi every 17 secs. And imo, to give up 25% of boon duration in Water Rune for one more cleanse after every 17 sec is not worth it. And also, I am not just considering the boon duration on the boons given by the Scrapper but also those converted by Purity of Purpose. Nowadays many, not all, are running condi builds in WvW. There can be a lot of boons out there...

    I have been using Superior Monk Runes and Superior Sigil of Life or Benevolence on my Scrapper. But, after the big nerf, I can tell a huge difference in the effectiveness of my heals. I thought since Scrapper can give out a decent amount of boons from condi conversions, I want to switch to focusing more on their duration, and with Superior Water Runes and Superior Sigil of Concentration, they give an additional 35% boons duration in total.

    Bandage Self is 14sec with a minor trait from Tools, which is frequently taken in competitive for the Permaswift (or Reveals) and the GM traits which are all very good, and don't forget that the -25% Condition Duration from Superior Rune of Nature's Bounty is very significant in WvW, on top of the cleanse, especially since Bandage Self is also cleansing condition too (Cleansing Synergy).

    That's 2 condis/14sec AoE, which is quite significant.

    Also people seem to be forgetting that the 20% healing on Monk doesn't affect the player.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (NA) | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    The fun part of being a link server is tagging up and hearing "who are you?"

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    I thought since Scrapper can give out a decent amount of boons from condi conversions, I want to switch to focusing more on their duration, and with Superior Water Runes and Superior Sigil of Concentration, they give an additional 35% boons duration in total.

    My only question though is what is the benefit of all the extra boon duration (on top of what you have from Monk runes + Minstrels) when they are just going to get stripped or corrupted anyways?

    As far as I can tell, the only time when such extra boon duration would matter is when your opponents are in retreat, with shades/winds on cooldown, in which case it's just a matter of catching up to them before they can mount/port or retreat into a structure -they aren't really putting up a fight at that point.

    Mostly for cover boons, so there's a better chance your more valuable boons don't get stripped. This is why comeback cure is so good; it's not like you can't apply regen easily after all.

    As a Scrapper, it is very likely as you cleanse, you will "uncorrupt" boons that were corrupted by scourges, so there is some value in having them last a second or so longer. With Purity of Purpose, you are always doing this, so it's an improvement in overall performance.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2020

    The boons may last for just 0.5 sec or 1 sec more and we get only 1 more random boon but I believe they make a big difference when you needed it, comparing with just 15% to 20% more heals on those miserable green numbers I gave out after the nerf. And 20% more is the max not the average.

    I think the much weaker healing power makes the Monk Rune just another option rather than the better one.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    unless its something like resistance or stab, which is still only 10% lol, its not enough to make a difference. +20% heal on the other hand is a massive increase if you are on a build that can reliably spam heals like scrapper, tempest, heal rev, or druid. there is a point to be made about lower heal coefficients tho, still i think monk is the best.

    Te lazla otstara.