The correct way to rework mirage. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home PVP

The correct way to rework mirage.

Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭
edited June 24, 2020 in PVP

Mirage is a bit of a problem child and in my opinion, its design is flawed. After numerous nerfs mirage has reached a point where it doesn't perform well anymore and doesn't play well either. This is the result of nerfing numbers but ignoring the core problem of the elite spec. In this thread, I will share my view on how to rework mirage. For the sake of ease, I will only talk about condi mirage.

First of all, let's identify the design problem of mirage: the dodge. It can be used when cc'd and it allows continuous pressure where other specs have to dodge skills and can't attack at the same time. How can we solve this? No, not by removing one dodge from mirage but by splitting the functionality of dodge and ambush. What's the core mechanic of mesmer? Exactly, clones and shatters, yet condi mirage rarely uses shatters...

Change #1: Mirage gets its second dodge back.

Change #2: Dodge does not apply mirage cloak anymore.

Change #3: Mirage gets access to a new F5 skill called Ambush. Ambush on weapons is removed (functionality remains the same). Ambush F5 can be used after using a shatter skill with 3 clones (maybe 2, hard to tell). This makes it possible to store one ambush instead of having to use it in a limited time frame after a dodge.

Change #4: Infinite Horizon (Mirage GM 1) is replaced by a new trait called Heat Fibrillation. Heat Fibrillation Applies 1 stack of burning for X seconds per shatter (max 3 clones + you = 4 stacks).

With these changes mirage will get 2 normal dodges again, making the player choose between defense and offense. Furthermore, mirage will be encouraged to use its shatter skills once again. Mirage cloak will remain in the game from certain skills (heal, etc), it just won't give you ambush skills anymore and the uptime will be much lower. With Infinite Horizon removed you will be challenged to keep your clones alive so you can get enough shatters to enable the new F5 Ambush. The new GM trait Heat Fibrillation makes up for the damage loss because shatter skills have overall longer cooldowns than a dodge, especially with double energy sigils. You don't just want to buff ambush skills for the lost damage, this would make the spec too one dimensional, instead, burn on shatter will reward you for hitting your shatters.

Comments

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    4 burn on shatter good suggestion (~+ 200% dmg on shatter), plus a free ambush and 2nd dodge
    excellent suggestions in trying to shave the meta
    hopefully you mean 3 clone shatter will give you a loaded ambush, otherwise i dont see how you can average 10 burn stacks and mirage wont be viable

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2020

    I'm on board for the return of mirage's second dodge and the removal of infinite horizon, but I'm not sure the removal/change of/to the normal ambush skills is even needed at that point. Beyond that, I'd like to see some alterations made to weapons like scepter and offhand sword. Once upon a time Anet destroyed mesmer's ability to generate might on any weapon set that isn't greatsword or staff. I was a huge fan of scepter/x sword/sword power builds prior to the changes, so it would be nice to have the might generation on sword 5 restored and scepter tweaked to be more useful on power specs. In regard to scepter, we've had a weird thing going for a long time where the weapon is almost unusable when it isn't traited. Perhaps they could make the attack speed increase baseline and have the trait provide +150 power while wielding scepter.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2020

    @Jekkt.6045 said:
    yet condi mirage rarely uses shatters...

    What?

    @Jables.4659 said:
    I'm on board for the return of mirage's second dodge and the removal of infinite horizon,

    What????

    Current condi mirage uses shatters + EM though lol

    What to do with mirage:
    1) Bring 2 back dodges (or 75 endurance)
    2) Heavily reduce clone ambushes' damage and buff real mesmer's ambushes
    3) Make IH baseline
    4) Make EM remove movement impairing conditions + small heal (170 base or something)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    they could make EM remove 1 condi if you have no clones and 2 if you have any clones up. Look at me giving anet ideas, wink wink

  • Allarius.5670Allarius.5670 Member ✭✭✭

    Assuming Mirage Cloak really is too strong by itself and the issue was not solely Infinite Horizon (in which case just completely rework Infinite Horizon), here is how I would explore redesign.

    Remove Mirage Cloak on dodge. Mirage Cloak is only accessible via Mirage Mirrors and Illusionary Ambush Deception. Give Mirage two normal dodges.

    The problems of Mirage Cloak (dodging during cc, dodging during non-Ambush skill activation, clone Ambushes from Infinite Horizon) are now locked behind Mirage Mirrors and, consequently, require additional/specific build investment with the associated playstyle changes (chasing Mirrors, giving up other utilities, etc.).

    Ambush skills for the Mirage are now accessible after each shatter, after each Mirage Cloak, and after each Distortion when Desert Distortion is traited.

    These changes make Ambush the primary Mirage mechanic (built-in) and Mirage Cloak a secondary mechanic that requires further/specific build investment. Ideally, this means a trade-off only needs to be designed for Ambush as the investments required to access Mirage Cloak (and the associated ambush) is sufficient (or can be made to be via cool down changes).

    New Mirage trade-off is losing self-shatter, but allowing shatter skills to be activated without clones to allow the Mirage access to Ambush. The trade is a stage of shatter (specifically the one on the Mesmer) for an Ambush. As seen with Chronomancer, self-shatter loss is a design breaking trade-off on its own, but here it is actually replaced by Ambushes and still allows the shatter skill to be activated.

    Trait Changes

    Elusive Mind cleanse 1 condition on dodge and 1 when you gain Mirage Cloak.

    Dune Cloak activates Sand Shards on Ambush in addition to Mirage Cloak.

    Boons from Renewing Oasis and Mirage Mantle granted with Mirage Cloak and on Ambush activation.

  • kybraga.7103kybraga.7103 Member ✭✭

    In my mind, and I have thought this time and time again. Clones and Phantasms should not have a trait that gives them access to an evade- it gives them too much power... And now instead evades directly got nerfed instead.

    Infinite Horizon should grant Clones the ability to use ambushes but not grant Mirage Cloak, I'm not sure how it looks under the hood for the developers to be able to do with ease, but removing a whole evade was the lazy way out- and the original problem can still exist, just not as often.

    Elusive Mind is an interesting trait that most likely only exists because of a single evade, just reduce it to 1 condi and removes movement-impending conditions.

    Dune Cloak is a mess of a trait in my mind, damaging at the end of an evade frame makes it really awkward when you don't get initial mobility like Bounding Dodger gives. Dune Cloak has potential to be a utility trait but it needs some doctoring up- specifically to make it even a consideration to use over either of the two above. Perhaps converting a boon to a condition and taking that boon. (Basically just change it from remove to convert.) It would give Mirage a way to offer some boon hate without forcing Domination down their throats and offer some counter play to the meta where Transformations are king. (Rampage, Lich, and Tornado.)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kybraga.7103 said:
    In my mind, and I have thought this time and time again. Clones and Phantasms should not have a trait that gives them access to an evade- it gives them too much power... And now instead evades directly got nerfed instead.

    Infinite Horizon should grant Clones the ability to use ambushes but not grant Mirage Cloak, I'm not sure how it looks under the hood for the developers to be able to do with ease, but removing a whole evade was the lazy way out- and the original problem can still exist, just not as often.

    Elusive Mind is an interesting trait that most likely only exists because of a single evade, just reduce it to 1 condi and removes movement-impending conditions.

    Dune Cloak is a mess of a trait in my mind, damaging at the end of an evade frame makes it really awkward when you don't get initial mobility like Bounding Dodger gives. Dune Cloak has potential to be a utility trait but it needs some doctoring up- specifically to make it even a consideration to use over either of the two above. Perhaps converting a boon to a condition and taking that boon. (Basically just change it from remove to convert.) It would give Mirage a way to offer some boon hate without forcing Domination down their throats and offer some counter play to the meta where Transformations are king. (Rampage, Lich, and Tornado.)

    lol, if anything clones and expecially phantasms NEED evade or other form of protection, they are so kitten weak that they die to a fart on a wind.
    holo wipes every phantasm and clone in huge aoe with pulsing aoe corona every 8s
    it can get to a point where phatasms throw in teamfights never actually get to do anything, corona 1shots them, glint pulsing aoe 2shots them, fear ring obliterates them
    any traps obliterate them

  • kybraga.7103kybraga.7103 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @kybraga.7103 said:
    In my mind, and I have thought this time and time again. Clones and Phantasms should not have a trait that gives them access to an evade- it gives them too much power... And now instead evades directly got nerfed instead.

    Infinite Horizon should grant Clones the ability to use ambushes but not grant Mirage Cloak, I'm not sure how it looks under the hood for the developers to be able to do with ease, but removing a whole evade was the lazy way out- and the original problem can still exist, just not as often.

    Elusive Mind is an interesting trait that most likely only exists because of a single evade, just reduce it to 1 condi and removes movement-impending conditions.

    Dune Cloak is a mess of a trait in my mind, damaging at the end of an evade frame makes it really awkward when you don't get initial mobility like Bounding Dodger gives. Dune Cloak has potential to be a utility trait but it needs some doctoring up- specifically to make it even a consideration to use over either of the two above. Perhaps converting a boon to a condition and taking that boon. (Basically just change it from remove to convert.) It would give Mirage a way to offer some boon hate without forcing Domination down their throats and offer some counter play to the meta where Transformations are king. (Rampage, Lich, and Tornado.)

    lol, if anything clones and expecially phantasms NEED evade or other form of protection, they are so kitten weak that they die to a fart on a wind.
    holo wipes every phantasm and clone in huge aoe with pulsing aoe corona every 8s
    it can get to a point where phatasms throw in teamfights never actually get to do anything, corona 1shots them, glint pulsing aoe 2shots them, fear ring obliterates them
    any traps obliterate them

    You bring up a valid point there, the issue becomes the fact that it acts a safety for phantasms and clones as well as being an offensive ability for your clones. Something has to give, but I suppose reducing effectiveness of all ambushes by like 50% (similar with Chronophantasma) to trade off for an overall increase in damage. They can then keep it 100% in PvE and all that. It disappoints me that a trait like Protected Phantasms got slapped so hard when it wasn't ever an issue in the first place.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kybraga.7103 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @kybraga.7103 said:
    In my mind, and I have thought this time and time again. Clones and Phantasms should not have a trait that gives them access to an evade- it gives them too much power... And now instead evades directly got nerfed instead.

    Infinite Horizon should grant Clones the ability to use ambushes but not grant Mirage Cloak, I'm not sure how it looks under the hood for the developers to be able to do with ease, but removing a whole evade was the lazy way out- and the original problem can still exist, just not as often.

    Elusive Mind is an interesting trait that most likely only exists because of a single evade, just reduce it to 1 condi and removes movement-impending conditions.

    Dune Cloak is a mess of a trait in my mind, damaging at the end of an evade frame makes it really awkward when you don't get initial mobility like Bounding Dodger gives. Dune Cloak has potential to be a utility trait but it needs some doctoring up- specifically to make it even a consideration to use over either of the two above. Perhaps converting a boon to a condition and taking that boon. (Basically just change it from remove to convert.) It would give Mirage a way to offer some boon hate without forcing Domination down their throats and offer some counter play to the meta where Transformations are king. (Rampage, Lich, and Tornado.)

    lol, if anything clones and expecially phantasms NEED evade or other form of protection, they are so kitten weak that they die to a fart on a wind.
    holo wipes every phantasm and clone in huge aoe with pulsing aoe corona every 8s
    it can get to a point where phatasms throw in teamfights never actually get to do anything, corona 1shots them, glint pulsing aoe 2shots them, fear ring obliterates them
    any traps obliterate them

    You bring up a valid point there, the issue becomes the fact that it acts a safety for phantasms and clones as well as being an offensive ability for your clones. Something has to give, but I suppose reducing effectiveness of all ambushes by like 50% (similar with Chronophantasma) to trade off for an overall increase in damage. They can then keep it 100% in PvE and all that. It disappoints me that a trait like Protected Phantasms got slapped so hard when it wasn't ever an issue in the first place.

    50% nerf to what? is 600 dmg from a clone too much?
    the strongest hit from clones is staff with about what, 1,2k dmg? there is no IH ambush thats any good anymore, every single one has been kitten on.
    staff deals about same dmg as clones autoattacking, entire scepter damage came from sharper img -> nerfed by 50% on top of amulet changes for total of 90% less damage.
    the only good IH ambushes are GS for vulnerability and some dmg, and in theory axe could be good if clones lived to use it. but they dont.
    IH sucks, ambushes got kitten on. and it even sucks as defensive option too, nobody is going to waste a dodge so the clone can survive, phantasms should never die in 1hit EVER, expecially to aoe skills, the fact that they die to low cd, aoe pulsing hits with 1 hit is a kitten joke.

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    What to do with mirage:
    1) Bring 2 back dodges (or 75 endurance)
    2) Heavily reduce clone ambushes' damage and buff real mesmer's ambushes
    3) Make IH baseline
    4) Make EM remove movement impairing conditions + small heal (170 base or something)

    I understand the reasoning for wanting IH baseline even if the clone damage is greatly reduced, but the damage isn't the only thing responsible for the backlash against IH mirage. Prior to mirage, identifying the real Mesmer vs clones wasn't too problematic for non-Mesmer players. Clones auto attack and move forward. Any movement beyond that gave the real Mesmer away and everyone kept their sanity. With Mirage and IH, the actual dodge performed by the Mesmer looks identical to the dodge performed by clones when IH is selected, and then you have an added bonus of clones doing non-auto attacks and leaping around the battlefield. I would wager that this is a huge part of why so many find Mirage "unfun" to fight against.

    The ideal solution would be to find a way to keep the benefits of IH that aren't problematic (protection for clones/sword daze protection for power mirage/boons) while removing the stuff that lead to the complaints that put Mesmer in its current position. Doing this would almost definitely require a complete rework of illusions in general, which I'm on board for at this point.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2020

    The design has been a problem ever since the phantasm rework, which was a bad update because it did exactly the opposite of what was needed for the class by making Mesmers more reliant on add-spam when it needed to be made less reliant. The result of this made it far too easy and effective to enact the "Run away / invuln / stealth while clones play the game for me" play-style. This play-style is completely uninteractive and thus inherently lacks any meaningful counter.

    When you have something in a PvP game that doesn't have a decent counter to it, it becomes a "black or white" balance problem. Either the raw damage/defense numbers are high enough to carry games, in which case it immediately breaks the game because anything that can both consistently win and has no counter strategy is pretty much the definition of overpowered in competitive play. Or, the numbers are not high enough to be useful, and thus the spec is useless for self-explanatory reasons. The latter state is what Mirage is currently sitting in. With one dodge, it can't quite stall matchups for long enough for the clone spam to tick enough condi damage to win fights, and thus it is in an underpowered state.

    TL;DR of it is Mesmer needs a rework in general that makes it less reliant on spamming illusions. As long as their add-spam deals unavoidable damage, the class will always be able to do some form of this cheese strat. This needs to be addressed before the class should be buffed otherwise as soon as the numbers become high enough it would just return to being bad-for-the-game again.

    A good place to start would be reducing the damage dealt by clone ambushes, condi clone autos, and certain phantasms. Then increasing the damage and effectiveness of skills that are actually coming from the mesmer, not the adds.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jekkt.6045 said:
    Mirage is a bit of a problem child and in my opinion, its design is flawed. After numerous nerfs mirage has reached a point where it doesn't perform well anymore and doesn't play well either. This is the result of nerfing numbers but ignoring the core problem of the elite spec. In this thread, I will share my view on how to rework mirage. For the sake of ease, I will only talk about condi mirage.

    First of all, let's identify the design problem of mirage: the dodge. It can be used when cc'd and it allows continuous pressure where other specs have to dodge skills and can't attack at the same time. How can we solve this? No, not by removing one dodge from mirage but by splitting the functionality of dodge and ambush. What's the core mechanic of mesmer? Exactly, clones and shatters, yet condi mirage rarely uses shatters...

    Change #1: Mirage gets its second dodge back.

    Change #2: Dodge does not apply mirage cloak anymore.

    Change #3: Mirage gets access to a new F5 skill called Ambush. Ambush on weapons is removed (functionality remains the same). Ambush F5 can be used after using a shatter skill with 3 clones (maybe 2, hard to tell). This makes it possible to store one ambush instead of having to use it in a limited time frame after a dodge.

    Change #4: Infinite Horizon (Mirage GM 1) is replaced by a new trait called Heat Fibrillation. Heat Fibrillation Applies 1 stack of burning for X seconds per shatter (max 3 clones + you = 4 stacks).

    With these changes mirage will get 2 normal dodges again, making the player choose between defense and offense. Furthermore, mirage will be encouraged to use its shatter skills once again. Mirage cloak will remain in the game from certain skills (heal, etc), it just won't give you ambush skills anymore and the uptime will be much lower. With Infinite Horizon removed you will be challenged to keep your clones alive so you can get enough shatters to enable the new F5 Ambush. The new GM trait Heat Fibrillation makes up for the damage loss because shatter skills have overall longer cooldowns than a dodge, especially with double energy sigils. You don't just want to buff ambush skills for the lost damage, this would make the spec too one dimensional, instead, burn on shatter will reward you for hitting your shatters.

    How much did you think about this?

    • Tying ambushes to the number of 2+ clone shatters would greatly reduce your ambush output - Insane nerf
    • Ambush attack AFTER the main finisher mesmer has (shatter) is out of place, definitely wouldn't work on power mirage - nerf
    • Ambush attack AFTER condiburst: what even is this skill supposed to do now? Condi weapons inflict even more conditions, but the enemy already died or cleansed the stacks, so either way it doesn't matter. - nerf
    • You basicly delete the synergies between mirage traits. By swapping out IH and removing ambush from dodges, every trait related to these gets weaker. Which is all but 2 of them (Self-Deception and Mirrored Axes). - again, an insane nerf

    Do you think mirage is overperforming so much that it needs to be weakened this much? Even reverting 90% of the nerfs mirage got since PoF release and just simply deleting IH would be better than this.

    "The correct way to rework mirage" is definitely not this one.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Frankly, I always thought Mirage's focused on accenting the profession's capacity to be a mobile, evasive, condition skirmisher the obvious draw back should be towards Mirage should be a serious vitality penalty. You'd become as evasive as a thief, but you'd have their same health pool so that if you screw up on a mirage it's significantly more punishing.

    It's more in line with the philosophy of the elite spec while providing very clear tangible weakness. It even fits thematically because as a Mirage you have the capacity to be come intangible, but you're less stable when attacks do land.

    I would 10,000x be down for that were they to give mirage the thieves level of on demand access to evades.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mirage only had one problem, ranged clones applying condi damage. Everything else was not problem and was easy to avoid. There is a reason why axe has been out of the meta since it as nerfed like a year and a half ago. If ambushes or dodge was the issue, would axe be the strongest weapon?

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2020

    edit: misread a comment

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    Mirage only had one problem, ranged clones applying condi damage. Everything else was not problem and was easy to avoid. There is a reason why axe has been out of the meta since it as nerfed like a year and a half ago. If ambushes or dodge was the issue, would axe be the strongest weapon?

    it would, axe ambush from clones actually deals the most damage, like 2-3x the damage from staff, or like 5x the damage from scepter.
    "potential" damage is there but they just throw axes into the walls or spend their entire window walking or just die before they even get the cloak.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Mirage only had one problem, ranged clones applying condi damage. Everything else was not problem and was easy to avoid. There is a reason why axe has been out of the meta since it as nerfed like a year and a half ago. If ambushes or dodge was the issue, would axe be the strongest weapon?

    it would, axe ambush from clones actually deals the most damage, like 2-3x the damage from staff, or like 5x the damage from scepter.
    "potential" damage is there but they just throw axes into the walls or spend their entire window walking or just die before they even get the cloak.

    This was never an issue, and still is not. Before axe was nerfed (and many other mirage aspects) it was the meta for like 1.5 years. No on used scepter back then. It is only after it was over nerfed people stopped using it, not because the ambush didn’t work or was bugged. Anet forced mirage to be only playable with ranged weapons and relying on ranged clones to apply damage while you dodge and ambush. It is terrible result based on dumb nerfs, cuz Anet failed to understand what was out performing and how to fix. Which is Anet balance style anyway.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Mirage only had one problem, ranged clones applying condi damage. Everything else was not problem and was easy to avoid. There is a reason why axe has been out of the meta since it as nerfed like a year and a half ago. If ambushes or dodge was the issue, would axe be the strongest weapon?

    it would, axe ambush from clones actually deals the most damage, like 2-3x the damage from staff, or like 5x the damage from scepter.
    "potential" damage is there but they just throw axes into the walls or spend their entire window walking or just die before they even get the cloak.

    This was never an issue, and still is not. Before axe was nerfed (and many other mirage aspects) it was the meta for like 1.5 years. No on used scepter back then. It is only after it was over nerfed people stopped using it, not because the ambush didn’t work or was bugged. Anet forced mirage to be only playable with ranged weapons and relying on ranged clones to apply damage while you dodge and ambush. It is terrible result based on dumb nerfs, cuz Anet failed to understand what was out performing and how to fix. Which is Anet balance style anyway.

    I didnt play back then so I wouldnt know, all I know is whats now and what was ~1 year ago.
    as It stands axe has the most ambush damage, but its not an issue, and IH was never really good with it, I played axe/scepter build pre big patch and it was miserable.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Mirage only had one problem, ranged clones applying condi damage. Everything else was not problem and was easy to avoid. There is a reason why axe has been out of the meta since it as nerfed like a year and a half ago. If ambushes or dodge was the issue, would axe be the strongest weapon?

    it would, axe ambush from clones actually deals the most damage, like 2-3x the damage from staff, or like 5x the damage from scepter.
    "potential" damage is there but they just throw axes into the walls or spend their entire window walking or just die before they even get the cloak.

    This was never an issue, and still is not. Before axe was nerfed (and many other mirage aspects) it was the meta for like 1.5 years. No on used scepter back then. It is only after it was over nerfed people stopped using it, not because the ambush didn’t work or was bugged. Anet forced mirage to be only playable with ranged weapons and relying on ranged clones to apply damage while you dodge and ambush. It is terrible result based on dumb nerfs, cuz Anet failed to understand what was out performing and how to fix. Which is Anet balance style anyway.

    I didnt play back then so I wouldnt know, all I know is whats now and what was ~1 year ago.
    as It stands axe has the most ambush damage, but its not an issue, and IH was never really good with it, I played axe/scepter build pre big patch and it was miserable.

    Ya, that was a bit after PoF release through like a ~1.5 years after. If you want to see how it worked, just try it in PvE now. You can easily get between 10-15 torment confusing and bleeding in under 5 secs. All that while under 100% vigor uptime and weapon swap provided 50% endurance. Some of these got nerfed way before axe nerf, but there were like ~6 month where mirage was seriously over performing. But after some nerfs, mirage was getting inline, yet Anet nerfed axe anyway. I am sure it is better in the current meta than before Feb patch, but you cannot have a viable build with 1 dodge.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Frankly, I always thought Mirage's focused on accenting the profession's capacity to be a mobile, evasive, condition skirmisher the obvious draw back should be towards Mirage should be a serious vitality penalty. You'd become as evasive as a thief, but you'd have their same health pool so that if you screw up on a mirage it's significantly more punishing.

    It's more in line with the philosophy of the elite spec while providing very clear tangible weakness. It even fits thematically because as a Mirage you have the capacity to be come intangible, but you're less stable when attacks do land.

    I would 10,000x be down for that were they to give mirage the thieves level of on demand access to evades.

    Having draw backs or trade offs doesn't NECESSARILY mean screwing with the profession mechanic. I've never agreed with Arenanet's approach to this at all. I've thought just in terms of how laser focused the spec is, Druid never really needed a real trade off due to the fact that taking Druid means you will NEVER do as much damage as a core ranger, let alone Soulbeast. Taking druid already has strengths and weaknesses just due to the nature of their traits and skills and unique weapon. The main problem with Druid wasn't a lack of trade off but how it is both terrible at actually supporting other players in PvP and also GW2's inherent problem where anything that heals others a lot becomes an absurdly resilient bunker as opposed to a squishy healer who can keep the team alive but is susceptible to being focused like how healers work in other games.

    Another one for example is I've always believed Holosmith should have some sort of healing penalty due to how the elite spec is designed around being a higher risk+higher reward super DPS augment to core engineer. Very high and easy damage, but you need to land it correctly and avoid counterattacks properly because you just wouldn't have the sustain of a core engineer, let alone a scrapper.

    You can build in strengths and weaknesses to the elite specs without having to gut the class mechanic entirely. Sometimes the elite spec altering the profession mechanic is the right thing to do, sometimes it's not. That's always been my philosophy.

    If the capabilities of a core profession look like this;

    Elite specs should in turn be altering the profession like this.

    I really wish Anet understood this. Having a mechanic that is different does not create a "trade-off." And you also could have a trade-off without changing any mechanics.The result of the implementing trade-off has to match-up with the goal of it, and they rarely do. I personally view the trade-off balance talk as nothing more than a publicity stunt. There might be a grandiose idea of how things should work, but in reality, it never does, cuz Anet devs do not think things through.

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Frankly, I always thought Mirage's focused on accenting the profession's capacity to be a mobile, evasive, condition skirmisher the obvious draw back should be towards Mirage should be a serious vitality penalty. You'd become as evasive as a thief, but you'd have their same health pool so that if you screw up on a mirage it's significantly more punishing.

    It's more in line with the philosophy of the elite spec while providing very clear tangible weakness. It even fits thematically because as a Mirage you have the capacity to be come intangible, but you're less stable when attacks do land.

    I would 10,000x be down for that were they to give mirage the thieves level of on demand access to evades.

    Having draw backs or trade offs doesn't NECESSARILY mean screwing with the profession mechanic. I've never agreed with Arenanet's approach to this at all. I've thought just in terms of how laser focused the spec is, Druid never really needed a real trade off due to the fact that taking Druid means you will NEVER do as much damage as a core ranger, let alone Soulbeast. Taking druid already has strengths and weaknesses just due to the nature of their traits and skills and unique weapon. The main problem with Druid wasn't a lack of trade off but how it is both terrible at actually supporting other players in PvP and also GW2's inherent problem where anything that heals others a lot becomes an absurdly resilient bunker as opposed to a squishy healer who can keep the team alive but is susceptible to being focused like how healers work in other games.

    Another one for example is I've always believed Holosmith should have some sort of healing penalty due to how the elite spec is designed around being a higher risk+higher reward super DPS augment to core engineer. Very high and easy damage, but you need to land it correctly and avoid counterattacks properly because you just wouldn't have the sustain of a core engineer, let alone a scrapper.

    You can build in strengths and weaknesses to the elite specs without having to gut the class mechanic entirely. Sometimes the elite spec altering the profession mechanic is the right thing to do, sometimes it's not. That's always been my philosophy.

    If the capabilities of a core profession look like this;

    Elite specs should in turn be altering the profession like this.

    I really wish Anet understood this. Having a mechanic that is different does not create a "trade-off." And you also could have a trade-off without changing any mechanics.The result of the implementing trade-off has to match-up with the goal of it, and they rarely do. I personally view the trade-off balance talk as nothing more than a publicity stunt. There might be a grandiose idea of how things should work, but in reality, it never does, cuz Anet devs do not think things through.

    the sad truth is, if balanced properly no elite spec should require a trade off. as the name suggests, elite specs should specialize your class in some way. but they rarely do and are just upgrades most of the time. why is that? because most elite specs do the same thing as the core specs, just better. if we compare some elite specs it becomes quite evident. druid on release was basically ranger + sustain. soulbeast was ranger + more damage + better survivability. in reality, ranger should be the damage spec, druid the healing spec and soulbeast the condi spec... heck dagger is even a condi weapon.

    elite specs should make things possible that your core spec can't do, not improve on what the core spec is already capable of. how can a designer achieve that? by creating skills traits and weapons that only do what the elite spec is supposed to do. the elite spec is a healer? then make healing skills and traits. there's no need for damage or offensive condi traits if that's not the elite spec's job. look at chrono traits, they're a complete mess. there are like 2-3 supportish traits and the rest is damage or slow stuff.

    it's fine if an elite spec can't be played in a different way than intended. sure, it's more limiting, but it's also better for balance. elite specs should not be jack of all trades traitlines..

  • Jazz.4639Jazz.4639 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020

    hi i just opened a thread in mesmer subforum for suggestions about mirage (but also chrono) changes. all ppl are welcome to add their ideas. the goal is, to come to a shorter 1-2 wordpad document for cmc to read. that was the conclusion we had after the meeting with cmc and the class coaches in the pvp discord (a link to join the discord you find in the mesmer subforum thread). feel welcome to join as long as you are constructive and focus one the elite mechanic questions first, there will be the time for a second document about nerf and buff suggestions later. so avoid nerf/buff controversials in this thread for once if possible :)

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/108992/doc-mesmer-changes-suggestions-for-cmc#latest

    YT/Tw PvP WvW Power Mes Guides/ Gameplay https://tinyurl.com/njhmjsh
    my neighbours listen to awesome music... whether they want it or not

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jazz.4639 said:
    hi i just opened a thread in mesmer subforum for suggestions about mirage (but also chrono) changes. all ppl are welcome to add their ideas. the goal is, to come to a shorter 1-2 wordpad document for cmc to read. that was the conclusion we had after the meeting with cmc and the class coaches in the pvp discord (a link to join the discord you find in the mesmer subforum thread). feel welcome to join as long as you are constructive and focus one the elite mechanic questions first, there will be the time for a second document about nerf and buff suggestions later. so avoid nerf/buff controversials in this thread for once if possible :)

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/108992/doc-mesmer-changes-suggestions-for-cmc#latest

    I wasn't in the mood to add my suggestions until now, i lost my hope about Anet admitting any mistakes and just want Mesmers to be trash tbh, at least until i saw the Chrono changes today. Even though you have most of it in private mails from longer ago already and a lot of it was inspired by talking with you anyway, i think i should post my wall of texts there again? I will do it in the next days then.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Jazz.4639Jazz.4639 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Jazz.4639 said:
    hi i just opened a thread in mesmer subforum for suggestions about mirage (but also chrono) changes. all ppl are welcome to add their ideas. the goal is, to come to a shorter 1-2 wordpad document for cmc to read. that was the conclusion we had after the meeting with cmc and the class coaches in the pvp discord (a link to join the discord you find in the mesmer subforum thread). feel welcome to join as long as you are constructive and focus one the elite mechanic questions first, there will be the time for a second document about nerf and buff suggestions later. so avoid nerf/buff controversials in this thread for once if possible :)

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/108992/doc-mesmer-changes-suggestions-for-cmc#latest

    I wasn't in the mood to add my suggestions until now, i lost my hope about Anet admitting any mistakes and just want Mesmers to be trash tbh, at least until i saw the Chrono changes today. Even though you have most of it in private mails from longer ago already and a lot of it was inspired by talking with you anyway, i think i should post my wall of texts there again? I will do it in the next days then.

    yes pls so i have all at same place. makes it easier

    YT/Tw PvP WvW Power Mes Guides/ Gameplay https://tinyurl.com/njhmjsh
    my neighbours listen to awesome music... whether they want it or not

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil lmao

    // Yanim

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil lmao

    because removing a sigil because of one elite spec is a good idea, yeah no.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil lmao

    because removing a sigil because of one elite spec is a good idea, yeah no.

    No but removing a sigil which is used by every single class for years is, however. Go on godsofpvp and look for yourself.

    // Yanim

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil lmao

    because removing a sigil because of one elite spec is a good idea, yeah no.

    No but removing a sigil which is used by every single class for years is, however. Go on godsofpvp and look for yourself.

    certain classes have better defensive options available to them than others, that's where sigil of energy makes up for it. other classes rely on dodge effects and make use of them that way. you just have to balance the on dodge effects well enough and it won't be a problem. energy sigil was nerfed from 50% to 25% already so it's not a problem anymore, just a good general sigil like cleansing too.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2020

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil lmao

    because removing a sigil because of one elite spec is a good idea, yeah no.

    No but removing a sigil which is used by every single class for years is, however. Go on godsofpvp and look for yourself.

    certain classes have better defensive options available to them than others, that's where sigil of energy makes up for it. other classes rely on dodge effects and make use of them that way. you just have to balance the on dodge effects well enough and it won't be a problem. energy sigil was nerfed from 50% to 25% already so it's not a problem anymore, just a good general sigil like cleansing too.

    1. Every class uses it for years
    2. It makes counting dodges unreliable for no reason (u cant tell if they have sigil or not)
    3. Makes some dodge mechanics aids, prominently mirage cloak, explosive entrance, prenerf warrior dodge
    4. The argument that "certain classes need it" is a bad one just as it was for sigil of agility. It is a crutch.
    5. Yes cleansing is the 2nd best sigil

    // Yanim

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2020

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil lmao

    because removing a sigil because of one elite spec is a good idea, yeah no.

    No but removing a sigil which is used by every single class for years is, however. Go on godsofpvp and look for yourself.

    certain classes have better defensive options available to them than others, that's where sigil of energy makes up for it. other classes rely on dodge effects and make use of them that way. you just have to balance the on dodge effects well enough and it won't be a problem. energy sigil was nerfed from 50% to 25% already so it's not a problem anymore, just a good general sigil like cleansing too.

    1. The argument that "certain classes need it" is a bad one just as it was for sigil of agility. It is a crutch.

    Of course it is a bad argument, but do you seriously expect anet to rework the defense of classes that rely on energy sigil? They can remove it for all i care if they fix the class balance first.

    And the same applies to vigour, some classes have it some do not and it makes counting dodges unreliable aswell.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil lmao

    because removing a sigil because of one elite spec is a good idea, yeah no.

    No but removing a sigil which is used by every single class for years is, however. Go on godsofpvp and look for yourself.

    certain classes have better defensive options available to them than others, that's where sigil of energy makes up for it. other classes rely on dodge effects and make use of them that way. you just have to balance the on dodge effects well enough and it won't be a problem. energy sigil was nerfed from 50% to 25% already so it's not a problem anymore, just a good general sigil like cleansing too.

    1. The argument that "certain classes need it" is a bad one just as it was for sigil of agility. It is a crutch.

    Of course it is a bad argument, but do you seriously expect anet to rework the defense of classes that rely on energy sigil? They can remove it for all i care if they fix the class balance first.

    And the same applies to vigour, some classes have it some do not and it makes counting dodges unreliable aswell.

    which class(es) are you talking about specifically?

    you can see vigor though, and it is also slower and less immediately impactful

    // Yanim

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil lmao

    because removing a sigil because of one elite spec is a good idea, yeah no.

    No but removing a sigil which is used by every single class for years is, however. Go on godsofpvp and look for yourself.

    certain classes have better defensive options available to them than others, that's where sigil of energy makes up for it. other classes rely on dodge effects and make use of them that way. you just have to balance the on dodge effects well enough and it won't be a problem. energy sigil was nerfed from 50% to 25% already so it's not a problem anymore, just a good general sigil like cleansing too.

    1. The argument that "certain classes need it" is a bad one just as it was for sigil of agility. It is a crutch.

    Of course it is a bad argument, but do you seriously expect anet to rework the defense of classes that rely on energy sigil? They can remove it for all i care if they fix the class balance first.

    And the same applies to vigour, some classes have it some do not and it makes counting dodges unreliable aswell.

    which class(es) are you talking about specifically?

    you can see vigor though, and it is also slower and less immediately impactful

    The ones that are slow or very squishy. Not all specs hold true to this anymore, but as far as core specs go, eles guardians and necros rely on energy sigil the most.
    Now, necro these days is a lot more tanky compared to what it used to be, but not being able to dodge cc in a teamfight even with shroud could probably still be certain death. Ele and guardian because of their health pools and because guardian is really slow if you can't port to a target for reasons.

    Mesmer and thief are obviously very squishy, but they're also more slippery than the above mentioned three. So I feel like they need energy less than the others.

    Ranger, Warrior, Rev, Engi would probably care the least about the removal of sigil of energy.

    Yes vigour is better in terms of how clear the endurance regen is, but nonetheless adds a layer of irrgularity that needs to be accounted for when you count/bait dodges. Is it bad for the game? I don't think so.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil lmao

    because removing a sigil because of one elite spec is a good idea, yeah no.

    No but removing a sigil which is used by every single class for years is, however. Go on godsofpvp and look for yourself.

    certain classes have better defensive options available to them than others, that's where sigil of energy makes up for it. other classes rely on dodge effects and make use of them that way. you just have to balance the on dodge effects well enough and it won't be a problem. energy sigil was nerfed from 50% to 25% already so it's not a problem anymore, just a good general sigil like cleansing too.

    1. The argument that "certain classes need it" is a bad one just as it was for sigil of agility. It is a crutch.

    Of course it is a bad argument, but do you seriously expect anet to rework the defense of classes that rely on energy sigil? They can remove it for all i care if they fix the class balance first.

    And the same applies to vigour, some classes have it some do not and it makes counting dodges unreliable aswell.

    which class(es) are you talking about specifically?

    you can see vigor though, and it is also slower and less immediately impactful

    The ones that are slow or very squishy. Not all specs hold true to this anymore, but as far as core specs go, eles guardians and necros rely on energy sigil the most.
    Now, necro these days is a lot more tanky compared to what it used to be, but not being able to dodge cc in a teamfight even with shroud could probably still be certain death. Ele and guardian because of their health pools and because guardian is really slow if you can't port to a target for reasons.

    Yep this is why I asked, because things like necro are not as dependant on it as before the big nerf patch. We are tanky now, in general we don't need evade spam (exaggerating here) anymore.

    Mesmer and thief are obviously very squishy, but they're also more slippery than the above mentioned three. So I feel like they need energy less than the others.

    Mesmer (mirage and chrono specifically) needs it a lot but you are right that this would be a buff for thief because they don't need energy bcs of initiative mechanic.

    Ranger, Warrior, Rev, Engi would probably care the least about the removal of sigil of energy.

    Don't think they would care less than ele par example. Explo engi loves enegy sigil.

    Yes vigour is better in terms of how clear the endurance regen is, but nonetheless adds a layer of irrgularity that needs to be accounted for when you count/bait dodges. Is it bad for the game? I don't think so.

    I have thought about this before actually, I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't have added it if it did not exist but it is too late to reconcider it now. Energy on the other hand is a gamechanger and also easy to remove, just like sigil of agility.

    // Yanim